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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Time to face facts: The ‘War on Terror’ is here to stay and

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  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    Being humane is not pathetic. I agree with Mr Tyndall, its just like an electronic hug. Nobody thinks it will solve the problem but its its not pathetic it empathetic.
    Did anyone do it last month when Saudi/US bombed a wedding in Yemen and killed a few hundred. No it was not even in the news here, ignored totally. Very selective with their empathy.
    Weddings in these places are not innocent celebrations. They are very often political arranged marriages to cement alliances.
    Any evidence that this was the case for the wedding which was attacked?
  • notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    Bhuddism is not perfect, but compare events in Burma to the Middle East. Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi led a peaceful campaign and now is in control of the Burmese Parliament. That is the real geo-political event of the week, a real Mandela moment.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/myanmar-rohingya-refugee-crisis_5644f63ce4b08cda34880a9b
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Moses_ said:

    Jonathan said:
    Thing is that people are missing. Border controls were reinstated yesterday and as such these people were caught in transit. What they needed to do was catch them in transit on the way to the target. Had we not had Schengen then it is entirely possible that at least some might have been stopped on the way.

    Schengen is dead, finished, kaput.

    Just like Merkel who should have already resigned and slunk off the world stage never to be heard of again except when people talk of her folly.
    Never underestimate the Europhile desire to ensure the project succeeds.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Speedy said:

    It seems in the Syrian peace talks they are getting close to an agreement:

    http://bigstory.ap.org/f507339b48ad4411ab76225fe2d51ff2

    "Invoking the need for joint action after the terrorist attacks on Paris, foreign ministers of nearly 20 nations agreed Saturday to an ambitious yet incomplete plan for bringing peace to Syria and ending its role as a breeding ground for ISIS and other radical Islamic groups."

    "It sets a Jan. 1 deadline for the start of negotiations between President Bashar Assad's government and opposition groups. Lavrov said the Syrian government already had put forward its representatives, with the U.N. special envoy for Syria, Staffan de Mistura, to begin immediate work on determining who should sit at the table as part of the opposition team.

    Within six months, the negotiations between the Syrian sides are to establish "credible, inclusive and non-sectarian" transitional government that would set a schedule for drafting a new constitution and holding a free and fair U.N.-supervised election within 18 months, according to a joint statement released by the United Nations on behalf of the 19 parties to the talks."

    Sounds great if it works, ambitious yet incomplete It sounds almost like another one of those grandiose EU schemes. To quote former Top Gear "ambitious but rubbish".
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    They should forego the abhorrent GSTQ and simply have The Marseillaise with both teams standing intertwined and the words on the big screen for English fans to join in.

    Of course this also highlights the worthless nature of GSTQ which offers absolutely nothing meaningful in its lyrics other than subservience.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    FPT:

    Pong said:

    That claim of responsibility is interesting.

    "It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe: Paris." ... "[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party" ...

    These people reeeeally need to get laid.

    A long thread to catch up on after a busy day!

    A martyr is someone who dies for their faith, not one who kills for it. One of many things that the Islamists have wrong.

    They do seem to have a very confused attitude to sex. If Allah hates fornication, prostitution, etc on earth then why would he tolerate it in heaven? The very idea of 72 virgins (with sexual favours) for wiping out harlots is rather self contradictory.
    Might make an interesting porn movie substituting "reforming" for "wiping out" to give it a multi denominational flavour.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    dr_spyn said:

    I see that Twitter has taken down IDS_MP, so much for free speech or freedom of expression. Looks as if some people can't even pick out the word parody when it is clear enough in the profile.

    IDS_MP is possibly the best spoof twitter account. How disappointing.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    MP_SE said:

    Moses_ said:

    Jonathan said:
    Thing is that people are missing. Border controls were reinstated yesterday and as such these people were caught in transit. What they needed to do was catch them in transit on the way to the target. Had we not had Schengen then it is entirely possible that at least some might have been stopped on the way.

    Schengen is dead, finished, kaput.

    Just like Merkel who should have already resigned and slunk off the world stage never to be heard of again except when people talk of her folly.
    Never underestimate the Europhile desire to ensure the project succeeds.
    It would be an interesting definition of 'success'.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dair said:

    FPT:

    Pong said:

    That claim of responsibility is interesting.

    "It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe: Paris." ... "[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party" ...

    These people reeeeally need to get laid.

    A long thread to catch up on after a busy day!

    A martyr is someone who dies for their faith, not one who kills for it. One of many things that the Islamists have wrong.

    They do seem to have a very confused attitude to sex. If Allah hates fornication, prostitution, etc on earth then why would he tolerate it in heaven? The very idea of 72 virgins (with sexual favours) for wiping out harlots is rather self contradictory.
    Most religions are a method of control over large numbers of people.

    Islam does not fit this profile. It is a Warlord's method of promoting his plans of conquest and rewarding those who support his aims.

    Once you understand that, Islam makes a great deal of sense.
    For years I've wondered why the 99% of peace loving Muslims don't organise marches or protests. It's either they can't be arsed or through fear or intimidation, as if the Stasi will report them for so much as suggesting it.

    I'd love to see tens of thousands of Muslim/British Asians marching to express their disgust or disappointment, it would do everybody the world of good.

    There have been a few tiny rallies to be fair.

    Earlier on 5live was an imam trying to convince us that Islam is a peaceful religion. It is not us that need to be convinced, it his co-religionists that need convincing. He is preaching to the wrong audience.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    MP_SE said:

    Moses_ said:

    Jonathan said:
    Thing is that people are missing. Border controls were reinstated yesterday and as such these people were caught in transit. What they needed to do was catch them in transit on the way to the target. Had we not had Schengen then it is entirely possible that at least some might have been stopped on the way.

    Schengen is dead, finished, kaput.

    Just like Merkel who should have already resigned and slunk off the world stage never to be heard of again except when people talk of her folly.
    Never underestimate the Europhile desire to ensure the project succeeds.
    This quantifies my earlier post about the EU referendum, as soon as Schengen ends so, in effect, does the EU.

  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2015
    Dair said:

    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile on the left:

    https://i.imgur.com/yvG3PwT.jpg

    It's almost comical. Multiculturalism is an utter, abhorrent, dangerous, destructive failure. It was the Lefts way of avoiding the need to question those views of (particularly but not exclusively) Islamists which did not fit with the Lefts mindset.

    So their solution is... more Multiculturalism.
    Take a walk around Whitechapel and you don't see multi-culturalism.

    You see a micro mono-culture that has annexed an area, and which is incompatible with the broader UK culture.

    Only idiots like Corbyn still see it as multi-culti.

    That said, the problems of incompatibility seem fairly unique to Islam even with this ghetto development.
    Err, that's what Multiculturalism is.

    It is a racist philosophy of Apartheid.
    You don't actually know what any of this means, nor do you have any experience of anything like London, do you?

    In context, we drop 330,000 Asians - overwhelmingly Muslim - into Scotland tomorrow. Then you'll get what London is living.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,225

    TheGord said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just noted the fact that 41 people were killed in Beirut by Islamic State. Barely made it in the news !
    IS now have the entire west, Russia, and half of the middle east against them. Surely they can't have too long...

    The Chinese also have their own Islamist problem.
    And India and Thailand and the Philippines. And many Burmese don't seem to like their Muslim minority.
    Is there a country in the world with a substantial Muslim population that doesn't have a terrorist problem? You do not get the first without the second.
    Germany?
    And that makes the situation all the more delicate. It can't be lost on the Germans that their leader's actions may have contributed to an attack on their neighbour while at the same time protecting them.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539
    Cyclefree said:

    "What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?"

    Fresh air, healthy exercise especially cross-country running and, most of all, rugger.

    I don't see why we should assume that there is anything missing from our society at all. There may be something missing from their lives or there may be too much of something malign in their lives. But I refuse to accept that we are to blame when people choose to do evil. These people have chosen evil.
    When I wrote that, I meant what is missing from their lives and our society from the perspective of people leaving this country to join IS. Which is what matters in that particular discussion. Their perspective is almost certainly wrong-headed and stupid, in which case we need to show them and others who might be persuaded that it is wrong-headed and stupid.

    We need to understand why they are becoming radicalised; not so we change ourselves, but so we can show them and others how they are wrong.

    We believe (obviously rightly) that out system and way if life is better than ISIS's. We need to show them that's the case.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    Being humane is not pathetic. I agree with Mr Tyndall, its just like an electronic hug. Nobody thinks it will solve the problem but its its not pathetic it empathetic.
    Did anyone do it last month when Saudi/US bombed a wedding in Yemen and killed a few hundred. No it was not even in the news here, ignored totally. Very selective with their empathy.
    I have lots of French friends. I don't have any Yemeni friends.

    And to be honest you just hate everyone so I am not sure why I am even trying to explain myself to such a f*ckwit.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Dair said:

    FPT:

    Pong said:

    That claim of responsibility is interesting.

    "It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe: Paris." ... "[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party" ...

    These people reeeeally need to get laid.

    A long thread to catch up on after a busy day!

    A martyr is someone who dies for their faith, not one who kills for it. One of many things that the Islamists have wrong.

    They do seem to have a very confused attitude to sex. If Allah hates fornication, prostitution, etc on earth then why would he tolerate it in heaven? The very idea of 72 virgins (with sexual favours) for wiping out harlots is rather self contradictory.
    Most religions are a method of control over large numbers of people.

    Islam does not fit this profile. It is a Warlord's method of promoting his plans of conquest and rewarding those who support his aims.

    Once you understand that, Islam makes a great deal of sense.
    For years I've wondered why the 99% of peace loving Muslims don't organise marches or protests. It's either they can't be arsed or through fear or intimidation, as if the Stasi will report them for so much as suggesting it.

    I'd love to see tens of thousands of Muslim/British Asians marching to express their disgust or disappointment, it would do everybody the world of good.

    There have been a few tiny rallies to be fair.

    Earlier on 5live was an imam trying to convince us that Islam is a peaceful religion. It is not us that need to be convinced, it his co-religionists that need convincing. He is preaching to the wrong audience.
    The Imam was the equivalent of a football manager convincing us his player didn't dive.

  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Tim_B said:

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    The Catholics were responsible for the slaughter of the Crusades.
    Are Quakers Catholic?
  • MP_SE said:

    Moses_ said:

    Jonathan said:
    Thing is that people are missing. Border controls were reinstated yesterday and as such these people were caught in transit. What they needed to do was catch them in transit on the way to the target. Had we not had Schengen then it is entirely possible that at least some might have been stopped on the way.

    Schengen is dead, finished, kaput.

    Just like Merkel who should have already resigned and slunk off the world stage never to be heard of again except when people talk of her folly.
    Never underestimate the Europhile desire to ensure the project succeeds.
    This quantifies my earlier post about the EU referendum, as soon as Schengen ends so, in effect, does the EU.

    Can't happen soon enough
  • Dair said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    They should forego the abhorrent GSTQ and simply have The Marseillaise with both teams standing intertwined and the words on the big screen for English fans to join in.

    Of course this also highlights the worthless nature of GSTQ which offers absolutely nothing meaningful in its lyrics other than subservience.
    Next time you mention political point scoring I shall remember this
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    notme said:

    Tim_B said:

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    The Catholics were responsible for the slaughter of the Crusades.
    Are Quakers Catholic?
    Doubt it. The Catholics don't have an oats based breakfast cereal.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    Bhuddism is not perfect, but compare events in Burma to the Middle East. Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi led a peaceful campaign and now is in control of the Burmese Parliament. That is the real geo-political event of the week, a real Mandela moment.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/myanmar-rohingya-refugee-crisis_5644f63ce4b08cda34880a9b
    As I said, not perfect! Tis vastly better than Middle Eastern countries though (and infinitly better than the expulsions and massacres of Indian partition too for that matter!)
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Police estimate circa 450 radicalised muslims have returned to the UK from Syria.

    (Source Telegraph)
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    MikeL said:

    tyson said:

    I think everyone here can be agreed upon one single thing; Jeremy Corbyn is not the man you want to be leading your country in this kind of crisis. He is fine as a pressure group politician, but the compromises that you require for saying the right things, and setting the right tone, for bringing people with you, Corbyn just cannot do this. It is simply not in him.

    Hollande was hamfisted today, but he played the political leader (sort of) well. Blair was good, Clinton too- OK, not quite Churchill, but not bad.

    And, also, we can all now see why Ed lost. Britain will never vote in as PM someone who hasn't the credibility to do the basics well- and the basics very much include leading the country through a crisis.

    Yup - and Cameron scores very highly on all these skills.

    Forget all policies - when a non-committed middle of the road voter looks at the candidates for PM then if one of them looks head and shoulders above the others as if they look, feel and sound like a PM then that person is going to get "extra" votes because of it. Not necessarily many - but some - and 2% or 3% "extra" votes because of this makes all the difference.
    Cameron is not on offer in 2020 though
    Never say never. He is a politician and might not be able to resist a slam dunk. One thing's for sure, if he is to be "persuaded" to change his mind it won't be pre referendum.
  • Moses_ said:


    Thing is that people are missing. Border controls were reinstated yesterday and as such these people were caught in transit. What they needed to do was catch them in transit on the way to the target. Had we not had Schengen then it is entirely possible that at least some might have been stopped on the way.

    How would they have known to stop them, were they looking for them already?
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Dair said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    They should forego the abhorrent GSTQ and simply have The Marseillaise with both teams standing intertwined and the words on the big screen for English fans to join in.

    Of course this also highlights the worthless nature of GSTQ which offers absolutely nothing meaningful in its lyrics other than subservience.
    How touching, a Scot showing concern not just for the English football team but also our national anthem.

    I didn't realise you cared so much

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    MP_SE said:

    Moses_ said:

    Jonathan said:
    Thing is that people are missing. Border controls were reinstated yesterday and as such these people were caught in transit. What they needed to do was catch them in transit on the way to the target. Had we not had Schengen then it is entirely possible that at least some might have been stopped on the way.

    Schengen is dead, finished, kaput.

    Just like Merkel who should have already resigned and slunk off the world stage never to be heard of again except when people talk of her folly.
    Never underestimate the Europhile desire to ensure the project succeeds.
    This quantifies my earlier post about the EU referendum, as soon as Schengen ends so, in effect, does the EU.

    Can't happen soon enough
    To save face, the europhiles could always maintain Schengen yet re-establish border controls. I doubt it would be their craziest feat of mental gymnastics.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    Bhuddism is not perfect, but compare events in Burma to the Middle East. Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi led a peaceful campaign and now is in control of the Burmese Parliament. That is the real geo-political event of the week, a real Mandela moment.

    This may not be the example you are looking for.

    Suu Kyi may be the first winner of the Nobel Prize for Peace to complicitly oversee a genocide.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    notme said:

    Tim_B said:

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    The Catholics were responsible for the slaughter of the Crusades.
    Are Quakers Catholic?
    And I'd say we've come along way from the Crusades. Not sure why something that happened ~600 years ago justifies what is happening today.
  • Dr Who tonight seems wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to those who died and were injured in Paris. The BBC just seem incapable of doing anything right. They could have postponed this episode as a mark of respect. Dreadful decision making.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Dair said:

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    Bhuddism is not perfect, but compare events in Burma to the Middle East. Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi led a peaceful campaign and now is in control of the Burmese Parliament. That is the real geo-political event of the week, a real Mandela moment.

    This may not be the example you are looking for.

    Suu Kyi may be the first winner of the Nobel Prize for Peace to complicitly oversee a genocide.
    Nah. Kissinger got there first.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    A respectful minutes silence, then a robust thrashing of the frogs by Mr Vardy please!

    I shall react to these attacks by visiting trendy bars and cafes, going to football matches and heavy metal concerts (Download has a splendid line up in June). I shall treat terrorist threats with the contempt that they have earned.
    You a metal head Fox?

    Now I know why I think you are an ok sort of guy :-)
  • Cyclefree said:

    "What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?"

    Fresh air, healthy exercise especially cross-country running and, most of all, rugger.

    I don't see why we should assume that there is anything missing from our society at all. There may be something missing from their lives or there may be too much of something malign in their lives. But I refuse to accept that we are to blame when people choose to do evil. These people have chosen evil.
    When I wrote that, I meant what is missing from their lives and our society from the perspective of people leaving this country to join IS. Which is what matters in that particular discussion. Their perspective is almost certainly wrong-headed and stupid, in which case we need to show them and others who might be persuaded that it is wrong-headed and stupid.

    We need to understand why they are becoming radicalised; not so we change ourselves, but so we can show them and others how they are wrong.

    We believe (obviously rightly) that out system and way if life is better than ISIS's. We need to show them that's the case.
    No, we don't. That has been talked about and tried and is doomed to failure.

    We need to show them that if they don't like our values then find somewhere else to live.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    weejonnie said:

    IMHO The Qu'ran and Haddith's should be treated the same way as Mein Kampf

    What way is that? It's not banned or anything - I saw someone reading it on the train a while back.
    On a train seems a peculiarly appropriate place to read Mein Kampf.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Tim_B said:

    notme said:

    Tim_B said:

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    The Catholics were responsible for the slaughter of the Crusades.
    Are Quakers Catholic?
    Doubt it. The Catholics don't have an oats based breakfast cereal.
    Quaker Oats have never had any connection with the Quaker sect, and the founders of the Quaker oats company were German, though I am not sure if Catholic.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaker_Oats_Company#The_.27Quaker_man.27_logo_and_Quakers
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Floater said:

    Police estimate circa 450 radicalised muslims have returned to the UK from Syria.

    (Source Telegraph)

    Is it not possible, even likely, that some went out full of idealism for the cause, saw the reality and thought, "Sod that for a game of soldiers" and scuttled off home again disgusted by the whole thing? Maybe 450 have come back but I very much doubt 450 want to bring the fight home.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    That there have been so few attacks is no doubt one pointer.
    Yes, there have been plenty of people who've wanted to carry out a similar attack in the UK over the last 10 years. That they haven't yet managed it is a considerable tribute to the unheralded but vital work of our intelligence services.
    And long may they be given all necessary and appropriate means of keeping up the good work.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited November 2015

    Yorkcity said:

    perdix said:

    The author is right that we must not blame all Muslims but we have invited into our country people who follow a religion which says we are inferior and must be overcome. It only takes one nut job with a Kalashnikov to do a lot of damage.
    There are supposedly thousands of illegal aliens in this country. Although I once hated the idea we must resurrect ID cards.

    No we must not. It would not make a blind bit of difference. France has ID cards. It made no difference last night.
    How do you know ?

    Especially at the football stadium.
    Always difficult to prove a negative so any "no difference" argument is invalid without proof.
    Well the UK government now makes foreign nationals applying for a visa have a biometric residence permit (id card).

    What do they use this for and why then ?
  • notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    Bhuddism is not perfect, but compare events in Burma to the Middle East. Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi led a peaceful campaign and now is in control of the Burmese Parliament. That is the real geo-political event of the week, a real Mandela moment.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/myanmar-rohingya-refugee-crisis_5644f63ce4b08cda34880a9b
    As I said, not perfect! Tis vastly better than Middle Eastern countries though (and infinitly better than the expulsions and massacres of Indian partition too for that matter!)
    Most of the Rohingya, who number around 1 million in Myanmar, were barred from voting in the election. They are the largest group of stateless people in the world, having been denied citizenship in Myanmar under a 1982 law, and are subject to numerous legal restrictions, including requiring permission to travel, marry or have more than two children in some areas.
  • Dr Who tonight seems wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to those who died and were injured in Paris. The BBC just seem incapable of doing anything right. They could have postponed this episode as a mark of respect. Dreadful decision making.

    Why what was in the episode?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RobD said:

    notme said:

    Tim_B said:

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    The Catholics were responsible for the slaughter of the Crusades.
    Are Quakers Catholic?
    And I'd say we've come along way from the Crusades. Not sure why something that happened ~600 years ago justifies what is happening today.
    A Born Again type might argue that.....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    Dr Who tonight seems wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to those who died and were injured in Paris. The BBC just seem incapable of doing anything right. They could have postponed this episode as a mark of respect. Dreadful decision making.

    What's wrong with it?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile on the left:

    https://i.imgur.com/yvG3PwT.jpg

    It's almost comical. Multiculturalism is an utter, abhorrent, dangerous, destructive failure. It was the Lefts way of avoiding the need to question those views of (particularly but not exclusively) Islamists which did not fit with the Lefts mindset.

    So their solution is... more Multiculturalism.
    Take a walk around Whitechapel and you don't see multi-culturalism.

    You see a micro mono-culture that has annexed an area, and which is incompatible with the broader UK culture.

    Only idiots like Corbyn still see it as multi-culti.

    That said, the problems of incompatibility seem fairly unique to Islam even with this ghetto development.
    Err, that's what Multiculturalism is.

    It is a racist philosophy of Apartheid.
    You don't actually know what any of this means, nor do you have any experience of anything like London, do you?

    In context, we drop 330,000 Asians - overwhelmingly Muslim - into Scotland tomorrow. Then you'll get what London is living.

    I think perhaps you don't understand what I am saying,

    Multiculturalism is not an integrated system of many cultures inter-twined. It is a system for the deliberate creation of multiple mono-cultures within a single state, where each mono-culture is not only different but utterly separate.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,230

    Cyclefree said:

    "What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?"

    Fresh air, healthy exercise especially cross-country running and, most of all, rugger.

    I don't see why we should assume that there is anything missing from our society at all. There may be something missing from their lives or there may be too much of something malign in their lives. But I refuse to accept that we are to blame when people choose to do evil. These people have chosen evil.
    I don't think that they did choose evil, Mrs Free. We might see it that way but I very much doubt that they did.

    Please don't misunderstand me, I don't seek to make excuses or suggest that the "West" is to blame or any other of that nonsense but I really doubt that many, if any, criminals are motivated by a choice to do evil. Some may not know the difference between right and wrong, some may just be greedy to satisfy their own desires and don't care about others, some may think they are acting in pursuit of a greater good but those are not choices for evil.
    No one chooses evil outside Brits overacting as the bad guys in Hollywood films. All the evil is done by people who though they were doing their very best to make a better world....better worlds.

    £10 to the charity of choice for who so ever gets the pop cultural reference at the end of that sentence.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    I guess they were radicalised before going, and on returning are more than happy to settle down and watch the X factor and drink a cup of tea. Harsh realities and all.
    Floater said:

    Police estimate circa 450 radicalised muslims have returned to the UK from Syria.

    (Source Telegraph)

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    First brit killed last night - Nick Alexander
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    RobD said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    No. Showing solidarity it valuable.
    Where was the option to change your picture when people die in terrorist attacks in the middle east? Oh wait, there wasn't one.
    When things happen close to you you respond differently. It's part of belonging - yes it's a little trite but not meaningless. You're not compelled to do it - if you don't like it look away.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539

    Cyclefree said:

    "What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?"

    Fresh air, healthy exercise especially cross-country running and, most of all, rugger.

    I don't see why we should assume that there is anything missing from our society at all. There may be something missing from their lives or there may be too much of something malign in their lives. But I refuse to accept that we are to blame when people choose to do evil. These people have chosen evil.
    When I wrote that, I meant what is missing from their lives and our society from the perspective of people leaving this country to join IS. Which is what matters in that particular discussion. Their perspective is almost certainly wrong-headed and stupid, in which case we need to show them and others who might be persuaded that it is wrong-headed and stupid.

    We need to understand why they are becoming radicalised; not so we change ourselves, but so we can show them and others how they are wrong.

    We believe (obviously rightly) that out system and way if life is better than ISIS's. We need to show them that's the case.
    No, we don't. That has been talked about and tried and is doomed to failure.

    We need to show them that if they don't like our values then find somewhere else to live.
    That's the next stage. But we have to try; many of them could be saved from the hateful ideology. If they don't change their minds, then they can f' off.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,225

    Dr Who tonight seems wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to those who died and were injured in Paris. The BBC just seem incapable of doing anything right. They could have postponed this episode as a mark of respect. Dreadful decision making.

    Not watching it, but I don't like programmes being cancelled because something has happened. I'm watching the X Factor and two of the acts had to change their songs this morning (License to Kill and Bang Bang) and that seems OTT.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    Dair said:

    FPT:

    Pong said:

    That claim of responsibility is interesting.

    "It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe: Paris." ... "[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party" ...

    These people reeeeally need to get laid.

    A long thread to catch up on after a busy day!

    A martyr is someone who dies for their faith, not one who kills for it. One of many things that the Islamists have wrong.

    They do seem to have a very confused attitude to sex. If Allah hates fornication, prostitution, etc on earth then why would he tolerate it in heaven? The very idea of 72 virgins (with sexual favours) for wiping out harlots is rather self contradictory.
    Most religions are a method of control over large numbers of people.

    Islam does not fit this profile. It is a Warlord's method of promoting his plans of conquest and rewarding those who support his aims.

    Once you understand that, Islam makes a great deal of sense.
    For years I've wondered why the 99% of peace loving Muslims don't organise marches or protests. It's either they can't be arsed or through fear or intimidation, as if the Stasi will report them for so much as suggesting it.

    I'd love to see tens of thousands of Muslim/British Asians marching to express their disgust or disappointment, it would do everybody the world of good.

    There have been a few tiny rallies to be fair.

    Earlier on 5live was an imam trying to convince us that Islam is a peaceful religion. It is not us that need to be convinced, it his co-religionists that need convincing. He is preaching to the wrong audience.
    The Imam was the equivalent of a football manager convincing us his player didn't dive.

    The Imam = Wenger, I didn't see the penalty.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    malcolmg said:

    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.

    @FMcAveety: Glasgow has a message for those who seek the banality of evil. Love shall always conquer hate. #JeSuisParis https://t.co/Q9p99Rpza2

    @GerryHassan: Glasgow's Hydro pays tribute to Paris. #ParisAttacks #ParisSolidarity https://t.co/SClYDbR4vz

    @Just_Katie_x: Scotland lighting up in tribute to France!
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Dair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile on the left:

    https://i.imgur.com/yvG3PwT.jpg

    It's almost comical. Multiculturalism is an utter, abhorrent, dangerous, destructive failure. It was the Lefts way of avoiding the need to question those views of (particularly but not exclusively) Islamists which did not fit with the Lefts mindset.

    So their solution is... more Multiculturalism.
    I'm not sure I find it at all amusing but I do so agree with your point.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Floater said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    A respectful minutes silence, then a robust thrashing of the frogs by Mr Vardy please!

    I shall react to these attacks by visiting trendy bars and cafes, going to football matches and heavy metal concerts (Download has a splendid line up in June). I shall treat terrorist threats with the contempt that they have earned.
    You a metal head Fox?

    Now I know why I think you are an ok sort of guy :-)
    I have diverse musical taste*, and have been to Download on a number of occasions. I missed the Eagles of Death Metal last year though:

    http://blog.ticketmaster.co.uk/music/photos-eagles-of-death-metal-at-download-festival-2015-15546

    Rammstein headlining on Friday (possibly the best European metal band ever) followed by Black Sabbath with Ozzy for the last time in the UK then Iron Maiden on Sunday headlining. Best festival line up of the year!

    *I am very fond of Northern Soul and Roots Reggae too.
  • tlg86 said:

    Dr Who tonight seems wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to those who died and were injured in Paris. The BBC just seem incapable of doing anything right. They could have postponed this episode as a mark of respect. Dreadful decision making.

    Not watching it, but I don't like programmes being cancelled because something has happened. I'm watching the X Factor and two of the acts had to change their songs this morning (License to Kill and Bang Bang) and that seems OTT.
    For a live broadcast I don't see anything wrong with being sensitive.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,102
    AndyJS said:

    Daily Mail is reporting one of those involved was thought to be just 15.

    Yesterday there was an interview with one of the self-elected Muslim groups about the death of Jihadi John. The spokesman was taking the line that it was a shame that Jihadi John had not been taken alive, so we could work out how he had been converted to extremism.

    The idea that Jihadi John could be expected to tell the truth as opposed to what advances his own warped view is naive in the extreme. It's certainly not a good reason why he should have been captured alive.

    But we do need to understand why young men and women are being perverted in this manner. The answers will not be simple, and a combination of a whole host of factors. Only when we understand this can we start tackling extremism at home.

    Why do you girls run away to ISIS? Why did Jihadi Jane convert?

    What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?
    A few articles on the subject by Theodore Dalrymple:

    http://www.city-journal.org/2009/bc0716td.html
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_2_when_islam.html
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_urbanities-terrorists.html
    Very interesting articles, thank you for the links.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Dair said:

    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile on the left:

    https://i.imgur.com/yvG3PwT.jpg

    It's almost comical. Multiculturalism is an utter, abhorrent, dangerous, destructive failure. It was the Lefts way of avoiding the need to question those views of (particularly but not exclusively) Islamists which did not fit with the Lefts mindset.

    So their solution is... more Multiculturalism.
    Take a walk around Whitechapel and you don't see multi-culturalism.

    You see a micro mono-culture that has annexed an area, and which is incompatible with the broader UK culture.

    Only idiots like Corbyn still see it as multi-culti.

    That said, the problems of incompatibility seem fairly unique to Islam even with this ghetto development.
    Err, that's what Multiculturalism is.

    It is a racist philosophy of Apartheid.
    You don't actually know what any of this means, nor do you have any experience of anything like London, do you?

    In context, we drop 330,000 Asians - overwhelmingly Muslim - into Scotland tomorrow. Then you'll get what London is living.

    I think perhaps you don't understand what I am saying,

    Multiculturalism is not an integrated system of many cultures inter-twined. It is a system for the deliberate creation of multiple mono-cultures within a single state, where each mono-culture is not only different but utterly separate.
    You're talking out of your colon, as the Greeks say. :smile:

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:

    Police estimate circa 450 radicalised muslims have returned to the UK from Syria.

    (Source Telegraph)

    Is it not possible, even likely, that some went out full of idealism for the cause, saw the reality and thought, "Sod that for a game of soldiers" and scuttled off home again disgusted by the whole thing? Maybe 450 have come back but I very much doubt 450 want to bring the fight home.
    Agree - but even 10% of the returnees equates to 45 trained, hardened jihadists ready to create mayhem on our streets.

    More also travelling all the time.


  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    They should forego the abhorrent GSTQ and simply have The Marseillaise with both teams standing intertwined and the words on the big screen for English fans to join in.

    Of course this also highlights the worthless nature of GSTQ which offers absolutely nothing meaningful in its lyrics other than subservience.
    Next time you mention political point scoring I shall remember this
    It's very relevant in times like this.

    When faced with a national emergency, France can sing as one about throwing off oppression, rallying for freedom and being a nation founded on egalitie, libertie, fraternitie.

    In the United Kingdom you can sing about grovelling before a monarch rich as Croesus off the backs of their feudal serfs.

    Just switch to Land of Hope and Glory and the problems are solved. Much like Canada or Australia, GSTQ can be kept as a "Royal Anthem".
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Floater said:

    Police estimate circa 450 radicalised muslims have returned to the UK from Syria.

    (Source Telegraph)

    How do they define "radicalised" ?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    Being humane is not pathetic. I agree with Mr Tyndall, its just like an electronic hug. Nobody thinks it will solve the problem but its its not pathetic it empathetic.
    Did anyone do it last month when Saudi/US bombed a wedding in Yemen and killed a few hundred. No it was not even in the news here, ignored totally. Very selective with their empathy.
    I have lots of French friends. I don't have any Yemeni friends.

    And to be honest you just hate everyone so I am not sure why I am even trying to explain myself to such a f*ckwit.
    What amazes me is the amount of "weddings" that get hit by super accurate weapons. It must rank up there with the number of " baby milk factories" with as one columnist noted, always had a broken wooden sign, scrawled with paint left in a very obvious location with the words Baby milk factory written in English.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Anyway, sitting here from Italy, and seeing how they have completely lost control over their borders, you have to thank nature for the English Channel.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,225

    tlg86 said:

    Dr Who tonight seems wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to those who died and were injured in Paris. The BBC just seem incapable of doing anything right. They could have postponed this episode as a mark of respect. Dreadful decision making.

    Not watching it, but I don't like programmes being cancelled because something has happened. I'm watching the X Factor and two of the acts had to change their songs this morning (License to Kill and Bang Bang) and that seems OTT.
    For a live broadcast I don't see anything wrong with being sensitive.
    The first act handled it fine and actually it's probably done her a favour.

  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    Bhuddism is not perfect, but compare events in Burma to the Middle East. Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi led a peaceful campaign and now is in control of the Burmese Parliament. That is the real geo-political event of the week, a real Mandela moment.

    This may not be the example you are looking for.

    Suu Kyi may be the first winner of the Nobel Prize for Peace to complicitly oversee a genocide.
    Nah. Kissinger got there first.

    OK, then the first to win the prize THEN oversee a genocide.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,230
    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile on the left:

    https://i.imgur.com/yvG3PwT.jpg

    It's almost comical. Multiculturalism is an utter, abhorrent, dangerous, destructive failure. It was the Lefts way of avoiding the need to question those views of (particularly but not exclusively) Islamists which did not fit with the Lefts mindset.

    So their solution is... more Multiculturalism.
    Take a walk around Whitechapel and you don't see multi-culturalism.

    You see a micro mono-culture that has annexed an area, and which is incompatible with the broader UK culture.

    Only idiots like Corbyn still see it as multi-culti.

    That said, the problems of incompatibility seem fairly unique to Islam even with this ghetto development.
    Err, that's what Multiculturalism is.

    It is a racist philosophy of Apartheid.
    You don't actually know what any of this means, nor do you have any experience of anything like London, do you?

    In context, we drop 330,000 Asians - overwhelmingly Muslim - into Scotland tomorrow. Then you'll get what London is living.

    Actually, in this, Dair is right.

    Multiculturalism (with the capital M) is a creed that preaches that integration is wrong. Just this week we had a moron in a UK council opine that the fact that people from a community don't mix with others means they feel secure - that this is a good this. Multiculturalism is the
    creed of a 1000 ghettos. To it's adherents, the presence of large numbers of people who don't learn English all their live is *good* - they are "not diluting their vibrant culture".

    This can be held distinct from the normal use of the word multiculturalism - multiple cultures living *among* each other.

    It is the religion of the Common Cause types, the philosophy promulgated by New Labour.

    The orwellian touch is to claim that anyone who doesn't support it are all racists.

    A minor irony of Mr Dair making this point is that central to the thesis of Multiculturalism is that the "home culture" is actually bad. Under New Labour this was made clear to be English culture. Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalism was just wonderful in all their manifestations....
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    tyson said:

    I guess they were radicalised before going, and on returning are more than happy to settle down and watch the X factor and drink a cup of tea. Harsh realities and all.

    Floater said:

    Police estimate circa 450 radicalised muslims have returned to the UK from Syria.

    (Source Telegraph)

    Of course.

    Radicalised here eh? Wonder where they got their ideas from

    REUTERS: reports of yet more trouble in Paris tonight (lets hope not)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    Bhuddism is not perfect, but compare events in Burma to the Middle East. Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi led a peaceful campaign and now is in control of the Burmese Parliament. That is the real geo-political event of the week, a real Mandela moment.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/myanmar-rohingya-refugee-crisis_5644f63ce4b08cda34880a9b
    As I said, not perfect! Tis vastly better than Middle Eastern countries though (and infinitly better than the expulsions and massacres of Indian partition too for that matter!)
    Most of the Rohingya, who number around 1 million in Myanmar, were barred from voting in the election. They are the largest group of stateless people in the world, having been denied citizenship in Myanmar under a 1982 law, and are subject to numerous legal restrictions, including requiring permission to travel, marry or have more than two children in some areas.
    They were barred by the military junta, not Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi. We should judge the new government on its handling of the rohinga going forwards rather than the actions of the previous dictatorship.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    I went to see Marilyn Manson Monday night busily burning bibles from an SS plinth, and then the Pope Tuesday to cleanse my soul.

    Floater said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    A respectful minutes silence, then a robust thrashing of the frogs by Mr Vardy please!

    I shall react to these attacks by visiting trendy bars and cafes, going to football matches and heavy metal concerts (Download has a splendid line up in June). I shall treat terrorist threats with the contempt that they have earned.
    You a metal head Fox?

    Now I know why I think you are an ok sort of guy :-)
    I have diverse musical taste*, and have been to Download on a number of occasions. I missed the Eagles of Death Metal last year though:

    http://blog.ticketmaster.co.uk/music/photos-eagles-of-death-metal-at-download-festival-2015-15546

    Rammstein headlining on Friday (possibly the best European metal band ever) followed by Black Sabbath with Ozzy for the last time in the UK then Iron Maiden on Sunday headlining. Best festival line up of the year!

    *I am very fond of Northern Soul and Roots Reggae too.
  • REUTERS...BREAKING: Heavily armed police at site of Pullman Hotel in Paris: witness

    Lets hope it is a false alarm.
  • Dr Who tonight seems wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to those who died and were injured in Paris. The BBC just seem incapable of doing anything right. They could have postponed this episode as a mark of respect. Dreadful decision making.

    Why what was in the episode?
    I was partially watching it with the sound off but it seemed to be a violent hostage attack with lots of shooting, fire, and violence. My grandson aged 6 had a sleep over with us last night and watched Sky news very quietly this morning and then queried are those people dead. We said yes but not for him to worry. There must be many parents having to face difficult questions from their children. An expert on radio 5 live was saying that children should be told the truth in a factual way and to add that there was an insignificant chance of it happening to the children. She went on to say that if the tv s switched off to avoid the child seeing it the child will not be protected from the events as it will be discussed at school and possible from a different and more disturbing angle. Interesting view point
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Tim_B said:

    First brit killed last night - Nick Alexander

    Yes, from the part of the UK I call home.
  • Dr Who tonight seems wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to those who died and were injured in Paris. The BBC just seem incapable of doing anything right. They could have postponed this episode as a mark of respect. Dreadful decision making.

    Why what was in the episode?
    I was partially watching it with the sound off but it seemed to be a violent hostage attack with lots of shooting, fire, and violence. My grandson aged 6 had a sleep over with us last night and watched Sky news very quietly this morning and then queried are those people dead. We said yes but not for him to worry. There must be many parents having to face difficult questions from their children. An expert on radio 5 live was saying that children should be told the truth in a factual way and to add that there was an insignificant chance of it happening to the children. She went on to say that if the tv s switched off to avoid the child seeing it the child will not be protected from the events as it will be discussed at school and possible from a different and more disturbing angle. Interesting view point
    Hmmm...didn't they run an episode last week with a plane getting shot down?
  • REUTERS...BREAKING: Heavily armed police at site of Pullman Hotel in Paris: witness

    Lets hope it is a false alarm.

    Or an arrest.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    Oh I suspect that a number of those Muslim groups that pop up with depressing frequency have been infiltrated quite thoroughly.

    But the challenge to ideas needs to happen out in the open and it hasn't, or not often enough.
    We might find all this 'infiltration' very comforting, but consider that the killers of Lee Rigby were known to the security services. The 7-7 bombers too. At what point does state involvement in terror groups need to be questioned?
    I think the fear of being challenged as racist inhibits a lot of sensible anti terrorist actions involving Moslems. There's read across in grooming of young white girls too. It's strange that it doesn't seem to inhibit police actions against the black community in the same way, maybe because the black community is longer standing and more integrated.
  • tlg86 said:

    Dr Who tonight seems wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to those who died and were injured in Paris. The BBC just seem incapable of doing anything right. They could have postponed this episode as a mark of respect. Dreadful decision making.

    Not watching it, but I don't like programmes being cancelled because something has happened. I'm watching the X Factor and two of the acts had to change their songs this morning (License to Kill and Bang Bang) and that seems OTT.
    I do agree but tonight's Dr Who seemed very inappropriate
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    Home
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    Statement on Paris Attacks

    Saturday 14th November 2015


    Statement from the Archbishop of Canterbury:

    "The sorrow in Paris is heart breaking and the evil of those who planned and perpetrated the Paris atrocities is beyond measure or words. We weep with the victims and with the bereaved. France is deeply wounded but will prevail with that courage and strength she has always shown. Wherever there is such wickedness Christ suffers afresh in the suffering of every human being. In solidarity let us be the source of consolation.

    The violence of this evil group brings terror to all, including in the Muslim world where its cowardly acts are opposed by many. This is a global and generational struggle against an evil cult that chooses death and fear. We choose life and hope, to overcome their hate with the power of God's love. In solidarity across all faiths and none, and with all human beings, rather than in the victimisation of any, we will find the way to defeat the demonic curse of terrorism. Christians are called, like Jesus, to stand with the suffering and broken and to oppose evil and fear with all their strength."

    I think the first sentence in the second paragraph is worded very interestingly - the vaguest hint of the emergence of a CoE spine??
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    chestnut said:

    What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?

    Nothing.

    They are suffering the consequential problems of sexual and social repression associated with their oppressive religion.
    I don't remember the Victorians blowing everyone up.
    I think they reserved that for the Empire.
  • notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    Bhuddism is not perfect, but compare events in Burma to the Middle East. Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi led a peaceful campaign and now is in control of the Burmese Parliament. That is the real geo-political event of the week, a real Mandela moment.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/myanmar-rohingya-refugee-crisis_5644f63ce4b08cda34880a9b
    As I said, not perfect! Tis vastly better than Middle Eastern countries though (and infinitly better than the expulsions and massacres of Indian partition too for that matter!)
    Most of the Rohingya, who number around 1 million in Myanmar, were barred from voting in the election. They are the largest group of stateless people in the world, having been denied citizenship in Myanmar under a 1982 law, and are subject to numerous legal restrictions, including requiring permission to travel, marry or have more than two children in some areas.
    They were barred by the military junta, not Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi. We should judge the new government on its handling of the rohinga going forwards rather than the actions of the previous dictatorship.
    Indeed. Though its worth recalling too that the military still have de facto control over large parts of Burma's government going forwards too. But it does seem perverse to blame a peaceful resistance leader for the actions of a government she's resisting.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    A respectful minutes silence, then a robust thrashing of the frogs by Mr Vardy please!

    I shall react to these attacks by visiting trendy bars and cafes, going to football matches and heavy metal concerts (Download has a splendid line up in June). I shall treat terrorist threats with the contempt that they have earned.
    You a metal head Fox?

    Now I know why I think you are an ok sort of guy :-)
    I have diverse musical taste*, and have been to Download on a number of occasions. I missed the Eagles of Death Metal last year though:

    http://blog.ticketmaster.co.uk/music/photos-eagles-of-death-metal-at-download-festival-2015-15546

    Rammstein headlining on Friday (possibly the best European metal band ever) followed by Black Sabbath with Ozzy for the last time in the UK then Iron Maiden on Sunday headlining. Best festival line up of the year!

    *I am very fond of Northern Soul and Roots Reggae too.
    Likewise I have varied tastes.

    Very fond of Ozzy's works and probably my favourite band of all is Iron Maiden.

    Last couple of days I have been listening to Five Finger Death Punch .... and 2pac :-)
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    It must be truly joyful being in your company, assuming you have human contact.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    A minor irony of Mr Dair making this point is that central to the thesis of Multiculturalism is that the "home culture" is actually bad. Under New Labour this was made clear to be English culture. Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalism was just wonderful in all their manifestations....

    I can assure you that Labour find Scottish culture in Scotland every bit as bad as they find English culture in England.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,749
    Moses_ said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    Being humane is not pathetic. I agree with Mr Tyndall, its just like an electronic hug. Nobody thinks it will solve the problem but its its not pathetic it empathetic.
    Did anyone do it last month when Saudi/US bombed a wedding in Yemen and killed a few hundred. No it was not even in the news here, ignored totally. Very selective with their empathy.
    I have lots of French friends. I don't have any Yemeni friends.

    And to be honest you just hate everyone so I am not sure why I am even trying to explain myself to such a f*ckwit.
    What amazes me is the amount of "weddings" that get hit by super accurate weapons. It must rank up there with the number of " baby milk factories" with as one columnist noted, always had a broken wooden sign, scrawled with paint left in a very obvious location with the words Baby milk factory written in English.
    Weddings cause quite a large group of people to come together. This gets identified by the "software" as a group. There's also, often quite a lot of firing of guns.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    Bhuddism is not perfect, but compare events in Burma to the Middle East. Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi led a peaceful campaign and now is in control of the Burmese Parliament. That is the real geo-political event of the week, a real Mandela moment.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/myanmar-rohingya-refugee-crisis_5644f63ce4b08cda34880a9b
    As I said, not perfect! Tis vastly better than Middle Eastern countries though (and infinitly better than the expulsions and massacres of Indian partition too for that matter!)
    Most of the Rohingya, who number around 1 million in Myanmar, were barred from voting in the election. They are the largest group of stateless people in the world, having been denied citizenship in Myanmar under a 1982 law, and are subject to numerous legal restrictions, including requiring permission to travel, marry or have more than two children in some areas.
    They were barred by the military junta, not Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi. We should judge the new government on its handling of the rohinga going forwards rather than the actions of the previous dictatorship.
    She didn't behave like a Nobel Peace Prize winner when referring to the Rohingyas calling them Bangladeshi. They have inhabited the Arakan for over 300 years and have their distinct dialect.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Pong said:

    Floater said:

    Police estimate circa 450 radicalised muslims have returned to the UK from Syria.

    (Source Telegraph)

    How do they define "radicalised" ?
    You would have to ask our counter terrorism units - I am not sure what definition they are using and the Telegraph does not elaborate.

    Scratches head at what point you are trying to make though.

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:


    Thing is that people are missing. Border controls were reinstated yesterday and as such these people were caught in transit. What they needed to do was catch them in transit on the way to the target. Had we not had Schengen then it is entirely possible that at least some might have been stopped on the way.

    How would they have known to stop them, were they looking for them already?
    They are always looking. That's their bloody job and the whole point of a security check point.
    .
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Actually, in this, Dair is right.

    Multiculturalism (with the capital M) is a creed that preaches that integration is wrong. Just this week we had a moron in a UK council opine that the fact that people from a community don't mix with others means they feel secure - that this is a good this. Multiculturalism is the
    creed of a 1000 ghettos. To it's adherents, the presence of large numbers of people who don't learn English all their live is *good* - they are "not diluting their vibrant culture".

    This can be held distinct from the normal use of the word multiculturalism - multiple cultures living *among* each other.

    It is the religion of the Common Cause types, the philosophy promulgated by New Labour.

    The orwellian touch is to claim that anyone who doesn't support it are all racists.

    A minor irony of Mr Dair making this point is that central to the thesis of Multiculturalism is that the "home culture" is actually bad. Under New Labour this was made clear to be English culture. Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalism was just wonderful in all their manifestations....

    We could debate the dubious constructions of social 'scientists' all day long.

    Any definition that ascribes mono-culturalism to multi-culturalism is.... how can I politely put this.....worthless.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108


    I was partially watching it with the sound off but it seemed to be a violent hostage attack with lots of shooting, fire, and violence.

    Unbelievable.

    Some people.

    You WERENT ACTUALLY WATCHING IT but complain its inappropriate.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Dair said:

    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile on the left:

    https://i.imgur.com/yvG3PwT.jpg

    It's almost comical. Multiculturalism is an utter, abhorrent, dangerous, destructive failure. It was the Lefts way of avoiding the need to question those views of (particularly but not exclusively) Islamists which did not fit with the Lefts mindset.

    So their solution is... more Multiculturalism.
    Take a walk around Whitechapel and you don't see multi-culturalism.

    You see a micro mono-culture that has annexed an area, and which is incompatible with the broader UK culture.

    Only idiots like Corbyn still see it as multi-culti.

    That said, the problems of incompatibility seem fairly unique to Islam even with this ghetto development.
    Err, that's what Multiculturalism is.

    It is a racist philosophy of Apartheid.
    You don't actually know what any of this means, nor do you have any experience of anything like London, do you?

    In context, we drop 330,000 Asians - overwhelmingly Muslim - into Scotland tomorrow. Then you'll get what London is living.

    I think perhaps you don't understand what I am saying,

    Multiculturalism is not an integrated system of many cultures inter-twined. It is a system for the deliberate creation of multiple mono-cultures within a single state, where each mono-culture is not only different but utterly separate.
    Does Nicola agree with you, Dair ?
  • Armed police officers are reportedly searching the Pullman Hotel near the Eiffel Tower.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1587854/armed-police-at-hotel-near-eiffel-tower
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    I wonder which of the following things may have happened by the end of the week;

    channel tunnel closed
    Schengen suspended
    Cameron arguing Paris incident shows need for more surveillance powers
    Diverse EU functionaries arguing Paris incident shows need for 'more Europe'
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:


    Thing is that people are missing. Border controls were reinstated yesterday and as such these people were caught in transit. What they needed to do was catch them in transit on the way to the target. Had we not had Schengen then it is entirely possible that at least some might have been stopped on the way.

    How would they have known to stop them, were they looking for them already?
    They are always looking. That's their bloody job and the whole point of a security check point.
    .
    So why did they let them go ?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    surbiton said:

    Dair said:

    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile on the left:

    https://i.imgur.com/yvG3PwT.jpg

    It's almost comical. Multiculturalism is an utter, abhorrent, dangerous, destructive failure. It was the Lefts way of avoiding the need to question those views of (particularly but not exclusively) Islamists which did not fit with the Lefts mindset.

    So their solution is... more Multiculturalism.
    Take a walk around Whitechapel and you don't see multi-culturalism.

    You see a micro mono-culture that has annexed an area, and which is incompatible with the broader UK culture.

    Only idiots like Corbyn still see it as multi-culti.

    That said, the problems of incompatibility seem fairly unique to Islam even with this ghetto development.
    Err, that's what Multiculturalism is.

    It is a racist philosophy of Apartheid.
    You don't actually know what any of this means, nor do you have any experience of anything like London, do you?

    In context, we drop 330,000 Asians - overwhelmingly Muslim - into Scotland tomorrow. Then you'll get what London is living.

    I think perhaps you don't understand what I am saying,

    Multiculturalism is not an integrated system of many cultures inter-twined. It is a system for the deliberate creation of multiple mono-cultures within a single state, where each mono-culture is not only different but utterly separate.
    Does Nicola agree with you, Dair ?
    That would be very unlikely.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited November 2015
    runnymede said:

    I wonder which of the following things may have happened by the end of the week;

    channel tunnel closed
    Schengen suspended
    Cameron arguing Paris incident shows need for more surveillance powers
    Diverse EU functionaries arguing Paris incident shows need for 'more Europe'

    The 4th one is guaranteed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,230
    Dair said:

    A minor irony of Mr Dair making this point is that central to the thesis of Multiculturalism is that the "home culture" is actually bad. Under New Labour this was made clear to be English culture. Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalism was just wonderful in all their manifestations....

    I can assure you that Labour find Scottish culture in Scotland every bit as bad as they find English culture in England.
    I think that you haven't seen the full extent of the "English nationalism is evil" comedy that Labour politicians have tried to push. Has a Labour politician ever suggested that flying the Saltire should be banned, for instance?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    A respectful minutes silence, then a robust thrashing of the frogs by Mr Vardy please!

    I shall react to these attacks by visiting trendy bars and cafes, going to football matches and heavy metal concerts (Download has a splendid line up in June). I shall treat terrorist threats with the contempt that they have earned.
    You a metal head Fox?

    Now I know why I think you are an ok sort of guy :-)
    I have diverse musical taste*, and have been to Download on a number of occasions. I missed the Eagles of Death Metal last year though:

    http://blog.ticketmaster.co.uk/music/photos-eagles-of-death-metal-at-download-festival-2015-15546

    Rammstein headlining on Friday (possibly the best European metal band ever) followed by Black Sabbath with Ozzy for the last time in the UK then Iron Maiden on Sunday headlining. Best festival line up of the year!

    *I am very fond of Northern Soul and Roots Reggae too.
    Likewise I have varied tastes.

    Very fond of Ozzy's works and probably my favourite band of all is Iron Maiden.

    Last couple of days I have been listening to Five Finger Death Punch .... and 2pac :-)
    Five Finger Death Punch are great live (I saw them at Download a few years back) US Metalheads seem more capable of being proudly patriotic, though Maiden are pretty close. I saw Maiden at Sonisphere a couple of years back too: they had a simulated WW1 airbattle for the interlude (The RFC won of course!)

    A taste of 5FDP's patriotism:

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yAJGz7BotLM
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,230

    Moses_ said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    Being humane is not pathetic. I agree with Mr Tyndall, its just like an electronic hug. Nobody thinks it will solve the problem but its its not pathetic it empathetic.
    Did anyone do it last month when Saudi/US bombed a wedding in Yemen and killed a few hundred. No it was not even in the news here, ignored totally. Very selective with their empathy.
    I have lots of French friends. I don't have any Yemeni friends.

    And to be honest you just hate everyone so I am not sure why I am even trying to explain myself to such a f*ckwit.
    What amazes me is the amount of "weddings" that get hit by super accurate weapons. It must rank up there with the number of " baby milk factories" with as one columnist noted, always had a broken wooden sign, scrawled with paint left in a very obvious location with the words Baby milk factory written in English.
    Weddings cause quite a large group of people to come together. This gets identified by the "software" as a group. There's also, often quite a lot of firing of guns.
    Plus alot of "business" gets done at weddings in that part of the world.

    Bugging funerals at IRA funerals turned out to be very productive. The best place for the bug was the coffin, so they say...
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    felix said:

    ...

    I think the first sentence in the second paragraph is worded very interestingly - the vaguest hint of the emergence of a CoE spine??

    I doubt it, but then he lost all credibility he might have been building in the second sentence of the first paragraph. France always shown courage and strength? The Archbishop has obviously forgotten the events of May 1940.

    I know Charles, gent of this parish, reckoned Welby and Charles is someone whose judgements one can usually trust. However, on this call I thought he was wrong at the time and nothing Welby has done or said since has made me change my view.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    A minor irony of Mr Dair making this point is that central to the thesis of Multiculturalism is that the "home culture" is actually bad. Under New Labour this was made clear to be English culture. Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalism was just wonderful in all their manifestations....

    I can assure you that Labour find Scottish culture in Scotland every bit as bad as they find English culture in England.
    I think that you haven't seen the full extent of the "English nationalism is evil" comedy that Labour politicians have tried to push. Has a Labour politician ever suggested that flying the Saltire should be banned, for instance?
    Yes!

    Lol yes.

    Thrice yes and yes again. They just spent two years telling us this.
  • Dair said:

    Dair said:

    A minor irony of Mr Dair making this point is that central to the thesis of Multiculturalism is that the "home culture" is actually bad. Under New Labour this was made clear to be English culture. Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalism was just wonderful in all their manifestations....

    I can assure you that Labour find Scottish culture in Scotland every bit as bad as they find English culture in England.
    I think that you haven't seen the full extent of the "English nationalism is evil" comedy that Labour politicians have tried to push. Has a Labour politician ever suggested that flying the Saltire should be banned, for instance?
    Yes!

    Lol yes.

    Thrice yes and yes again. They just spent two years telling us this.
    I missed that. Who said flying the Saltire should be banned? Have you got any links that's absolutely shocking.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,230
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    A respectful minutes silence, then a robust thrashing of the frogs by Mr Vardy please!

    I shall react to these attacks by visiting trendy bars and cafes, going to football matches and heavy metal concerts (Download has a splendid line up in June). I shall treat terrorist threats with the contempt that they have earned.
    You a metal head Fox?

    Now I know why I think you are an ok sort of guy :-)
    I have diverse musical taste*, and have been to Download on a number of occasions. I missed the Eagles of Death Metal last year though:

    http://blog.ticketmaster.co.uk/music/photos-eagles-of-death-metal-at-download-festival-2015-15546

    Rammstein headlining on Friday (possibly the best European metal band ever) followed by Black Sabbath with Ozzy for the last time in the UK then Iron Maiden on Sunday headlining. Best festival line up of the year!

    *I am very fond of Northern Soul and Roots Reggae too.
    Likewise I have varied tastes.

    Very fond of Ozzy's works and probably my favourite band of all is Iron Maiden.

    Last couple of days I have been listening to Five Finger Death Punch .... and 2pac :-)
    The acoustic version of Ace Of Spades is awesome. A song that I have strange memories of - was playing during a car crash (literal) I was in...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539

    chestnut said:

    What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?

    Nothing.

    They are suffering the consequential problems of sexual and social repression associated with their oppressive religion.
    I don't remember the Victorians blowing everyone up.
    There were plenty of Victorian terrorists, from the revolutionaries and anarchists to the Fenians, all whilst harbouring terrorists who would commit atrocities on the continent. There were even bombings of the London Underground in the 1880s.

    This chap was an example; his bomb killed 12 people, but not the target
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felice_Orsini
  • Dair said:


    I was partially watching it with the sound off but it seemed to be a violent hostage attack with lots of shooting, fire, and violence.

    Unbelievable.

    Some people.

    You WERENT ACTUALLY WATCHING IT but complain its inappropriate.
    It was totally inappropriate in the circumstances and before you make comments maybe you should watch it on playback before being so insulting
This discussion has been closed.