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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Time to face facts: The ‘War on Terror’ is here to stay and

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  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Seems like Jihad John meeting his maker was a lifetime ago now, but, interesting article on Corbyn's views on related matters.

    http://hurryupharry.org/2015/11/13/constable-corbyn-and-jihadi-john/

    "Harrys place" is a left leaning blog for those of you who do not know it but they are great on matters of Islamic intolerence for example (and the utter madness of a lot of the lefts dealings with them). When I first starting reading that blog years back ( I actually found this web site from them and my first exposure to tim's unpleasantness was on there too) they had some really interesting articles written by a guy who had visited Syria .

    All pre ISIS but very eye opening.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,230
    Scott_P said:

    So there we have it - what will work is a nasty little war in the dark. Which is probably already be going on. Remember the allegations that UK intelligence had allowed young Muslims to travel to Pakistan to "study" - but when their training had finished, the trucks taking them across the border to Afghanistan got droned?

    Let them go to Syria. Find their friends. Occasionally set some of them up to appear to be informers and sit back and watch what happens. Recruit the worst as your spies and use them to torture and murder the rest.

    @SunPolitics: Jihadi John given away by 'mole' inside terror group https://t.co/IOpkavfTaR https://t.co/jUjOVv75Lg
    One technique that was used in Northern Ireland was to use one means of intelligence gathering to "frame" someone. So, using wiretaps, they would arrest people and break up plans in a way that pointed to an informer. A particular individual.

    Alternatively a bug would be planted to be discovered. To prove that the bug was the problem and not the informer,
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,230
    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346
    Another interesting article, this time from a Muslim - http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/the-paris-attacks-were-a-declaration-of-war-against-islam-itself/

    I second Floater's views on Harry's Place.
  • Guy on sky is saying that the terrorists that attacked him was a North African and a blonde hair white guy.
  • Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    I'd call it Keep Calm And Carry On rather than Head In The Sand, because not_on_fire is being absolutely accurate about the scale of the threat.

    And yes, it's worked pretty well up until now. Despite a world full of astonishingly crazy homicidal people, and despite living in a country that's often involved in active overseas military conflicts with many of the said homicidal people, your chances of being a victim of terrorism are vanishingly small. It's not unthinkable that there might be better tactics that will produce even fewer casualties than Keep Calm And Carry On, but I'm not seeing any plausible proposals for them.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    Just noted the fact that 41 people were killed in Beirut by Islamic State. Barely made it in the news !
    IS now have the entire west, Russia, and half of the middle east against them. Surely they can't have too long...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,230

    Daily Mail is reporting one of those involved was thought to be just 15.

    Yesterday there was an interview with one of the self-elected Muslim groups about the death of Jihadi John. The spokesman was taking the line that it was a shame that Jihadi John had not been taken alive, so we could work out how he had been converted to extremism.

    The idea that Jihadi John could be expected to tell the truth as opposed to what advances his own warped view is naive in the extreme. It's certainly not a good reason why he should have been captured alive.

    But we do need to understand why young men and women are being perverted in this manner. The answers will not be simple, and a combination of a whole host of factors. Only when we understand this can we start tackling extremism at home.

    Why do you girls run away to ISIS? Why did Jihadi Jane convert?

    What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?
    The Israeli's apparently learnt alot from captured wanabe suicide bombers. They have a large collection in prison. There was a documentary a while back complete with interviews with some of the prisoners.
  • I'm hoping Corbyn has the handwriting of a Doctor

    @KatyScholesSKY: Message from Jeremy Corbyn at French Embassy: "with deepest sympathy to all who died in Paris on Nov 17." #Paris https://t.co/givuPPQkMj

    A form of words which also includes the attackers.

    He just can't help himself, can he?
    That may well not be what he meant but the problem that he has so much previous that he'll never be given the benefit of the doubt.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SkyNewsBreak: Update - French Prime Minister Manuel #Valls says France will continue with its airstrikes in #Syria with the aim of hitting Islamic State
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Now we know a 'refugee' entering Greece from Syria was involved in last night's attack, and made it all the way to Paris in 6 weeks, what's the chance that Schengen will survive?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Just noted the fact that 41 people were killed in Beirut by Islamic State. Barely made it in the news !
    IS now have the entire west, Russia, and half of the middle east against them. Surely they can't have too long...

    The Chinese also have their own Islamist problem.
  • I have to say,ifthe strength of feeling on PB is any gauge, ukip will be in with a strong chance in Oldham. Postal votes should go out at the end of next week.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,230

    I'm hoping Corbyn has the handwriting of a Doctor

    @KatyScholesSKY: Message from Jeremy Corbyn at French Embassy: "with deepest sympathy to all who died in Paris on Nov 17." #Paris https://t.co/givuPPQkMj

    A form of words which also includes the attackers.

    He just can't help himself, can he?
    That may well not be what he meant but the problem that he has so much previous that he'll never be given the benefit of the doubt.
    Rather reminds me of Livingstone and the "working-class" comment about 7/7
  • Floater said:

    Seems like Jihad John meeting his maker was a lifetime ago now, but, interesting article on Corbyn's views on related matters.

    http://hurryupharry.org/2015/11/13/constable-corbyn-and-jihadi-john/

    "Harrys place" is a left leaning blog for those of you who do not know it but they are great on matters of Islamic intolerence for example (and the utter madness of a lot of the lefts dealings with them). When I first starting reading that blog years back ( I actually found this web site from them and my first exposure to tim's unpleasantness was on there too) they had some really interesting articles written by a guy who had visited Syria .

    All pre ISIS but very eye opening.

    Is Tim still tweeting, would be interesting to see what he says about this attack
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    No one is saying that there shouldn't be counter-terrorism, which on the whole seems to work well: the vast majority of terror plots are stopped. Charlie Hebdo was the first serious attack in Europe since 7/7. But some of the solution being advocated on here such as "banning" Islam are completely out of scale compared to the threat.
    Counter-terrorism is certainly needed. Over-reaction should be avoided because it risks being the wrong reaction. But action is certainly needed. The ideology which underpins this needs to be countered. Banning Islam is not IMO the solution.

    But telling Muslims in Britain that Islam can have no political role in our country is needed. We need to make clear that freedom of religion in Britain means the freedom to follow a religion or not but that it emphatically does not mean that you can impose it on others or expect others to respect what you believe (as opposed to your right to believe whatever it is you want). And we need to make it clear that where there is a clash between religious belief and the law of the land the latter prevails.

    We need to say to people that you can be whatever religion you want or none but as far as we - and your fellow Britons are concerned - this is your private affair. If it means more to you (a Muslim) to be living in an Islamic state then that is your choice. But what you cannot do is seek to create an Islamic state of Britain or in Britain and nor can you expect others to accept or abide by the tenets of the faith you have chosen. If you want tolerance you have to give it - and to things/people you may not like and which may offend you. But you will have to suck it up.


  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    perdix said:

    The author is right that we must not blame all Muslims but we have invited into our country people who follow a religion which says we are inferior and must be overcome. It only takes one nut job with a Kalashnikov to do a lot of damage.
    There are supposedly thousands of illegal aliens in this country. Although I once hated the idea we must resurrect ID cards.

    No we must not. It would not make a blind bit of difference. France has ID cards. It made no difference last night.
    How do you know ?

    Especially at the football stadium.
  • Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    That there have been so few attacks is no doubt one pointer.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    FPT:
    Pong said:

    That claim of responsibility is interesting.

    "It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe: Paris." ... "[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party" ...

    These people reeeeally need to get laid.

    A long thread to catch up on after a busy day!

    A martyr is someone who dies for their faith, not one who kills for it. One of many things that the Islamists have wrong.

    They do seem to have a very confused attitude to sex. If Allah hates fornication, prostitution, etc on earth then why would he tolerate it in heaven? The very idea of 72 virgins (with sexual favours) for wiping out harlots is rather self contradictory.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,709
    Tim_B said:
    Significant development. Border control making a difference and Belgium possibly a weak link.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    That there have been so few attacks is no doubt one pointer.
    One wonders how disciplined they are with electronic media. Also, if they can penetrate the guys in Raqqa, Bradford shouldn't be difficult.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    I'd call it Keep Calm And Carry On rather than Head In The Sand, because not_on_fire is being absolutely accurate about the scale of the threat.

    And yes, it's worked pretty well up until now. Despite a world full of astonishingly crazy homicidal people, and despite living in a country that's often involved in active overseas military conflicts with many of the said homicidal people, your chances of being a victim of terrorism are vanishingly small. It's not unthinkable that there might be better tactics that will produce even fewer casualties than Keep Calm And Carry On, but I'm not seeing any plausible proposals for them.
    The chances of being a terror victim may be relatively low. But that's not the extent of the problem is it? The problem is the extent of the non-terrorist and often violent extremism which degrades our society: the anti-semitism, the restrictions on women, the homophobia, the attacks on free speech, the gender segregated halls at universities, the schools where children are taught according to the tenets of Arabia rather than Britain, the demands for respect, the forced marriages, the honour killings, the sharia courts etc etc. All of this is intolerable. It should not be tolerated. And it needs to be eliminated from our society.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    Oh I suspect that a number of those Muslim groups that pop up with depressing frequency have been infiltrated quite thoroughly.

    But the challenge to ideas needs to happen out in the open and it hasn't, or not often enough.
  • Jonathan said:

    Tim_B said:
    Significant development. Border control making a difference and Belgium possibly a weak link.
    I was in Brussels recently.

    It feels strange: a well-educated, pan-European, technocratic class sitting on top of a second-rate French city. That bottom layer now under a huge amount of pressure from refugees. Before too long the fact that the upper layer don't seem to share any of there concerns will hit them.

    Last week I said there would be riots... maybe their dissatisfaction will take another form.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    MikeL said:

    tyson said:

    I think everyone here can be agreed upon one single thing; Jeremy Corbyn is not the man you want to be leading your country in this kind of crisis. He is fine as a pressure group politician, but the compromises that you require for saying the right things, and setting the right tone, for bringing people with you, Corbyn just cannot do this. It is simply not in him.

    Hollande was hamfisted today, but he played the political leader (sort of) well. Blair was good, Clinton too- OK, not quite Churchill, but not bad.

    And, also, we can all now see why Ed lost. Britain will never vote in as PM someone who hasn't the credibility to do the basics well- and the basics very much include leading the country through a crisis.

    Yup - and Cameron scores very highly on all these skills.

    Forget all policies - when a non-committed middle of the road voter looks at the candidates for PM then if one of them looks head and shoulders above the others as if they look, feel and sound like a PM then that person is going to get "extra" votes because of it. Not necessarily many - but some - and 2% or 3% "extra" votes because of this makes all the difference.
    Cameron is not on offer in 2020 though
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?

    Nothing.

    They are suffering the consequential problems of sexual and social repression associated with their oppressive religion.
  • chestnut said:

    What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?

    Nothing.
    They are suffering the consequential problems of sexual and social repression associated with their oppressive religion.
    Very very true.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Topping, it was a small group of incompetent terrorists who precipitated World War One.

    I think there's a great degree of complacency regarding Western civilisation. It isn't inevitable and it isn't invincible, just as fundamentalist madness is neither inevitable nor invincible.

    Rome under Trajan was a colossus bestriding the world. About a hundred years later the Empire had split into three and was losing multiple wars to barbarians every year, and it took Aurelian (arguably the greatest of all emperors) to hold everything together.

    It was germany wondering how to address the threat from their eastern flank while not being sure they would face a threat on their western flank that precipitated WWI. It was simply a matter of timing as to when best to go to war for them.

    But I digress...
    Nonsense. The escalation of an incompetent terror attack in Sarajevo into the First World War was entirely thanks to the Blank Cheque.

    Guess what - Article 5 which Hollande is hinting at using, is a Blank Cheque.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    MikeL said:

    tyson said:

    I think everyone here can be agreed upon one single thing; Jeremy Corbyn is not the man you want to be leading your country in this kind of crisis. He is fine as a pressure group politician, but the compromises that you require for saying the right things, and setting the right tone, for bringing people with you, Corbyn just cannot do this. It is simply not in him.

    Hollande was hamfisted today, but he played the political leader (sort of) well. Blair was good, Clinton too- OK, not quite Churchill, but not bad.

    And, also, we can all now see why Ed lost. Britain will never vote in as PM someone who hasn't the credibility to do the basics well- and the basics very much include leading the country through a crisis.

    Yup - and Cameron scores very highly on all these skills.

    Forget all policies - when a non-committed middle of the road voter looks at the candidates for PM then if one of them looks head and shoulders above the others as if they look, feel and sound like a PM then that person is going to get "extra" votes because of it. Not necessarily many - but some - and 2% or 3% "extra" votes because of this makes all the difference.
    Cameron is not on offer in 2020 though
    Trouble for your side is that Corbyn is ;)
  • What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?

    An upbringing grounded in a decent values system.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,931
    weejonnie said:

    IMHO The Qu'ran and Haddith's should be treated the same way as Mein Kampf

    What way is that? It's not banned or anything - I saw someone reading it on the train a while back.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    That there have been so few attacks is no doubt one pointer.
    Yes, there have been plenty of people who've wanted to carry out a similar attack in the UK over the last 10 years. That they haven't yet managed it is a considerable tribute to the unheralded but vital work of our intelligence services.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile on the left:

    https://i.imgur.com/yvG3PwT.jpg

    It's almost comical. Multiculturalism is an utter, abhorrent, dangerous, destructive failure. It was the Lefts way of avoiding the need to question those views of (particularly but not exclusively) Islamists which did not fit with the Lefts mindset.

    So their solution is... more Multiculturalism.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:

    Seems like Jihad John meeting his maker was a lifetime ago now, but, interesting article on Corbyn's views on related matters.

    http://hurryupharry.org/2015/11/13/constable-corbyn-and-jihadi-john/

    "Harrys place" is a left leaning blog for those of you who do not know it but they are great on matters of Islamic intolerence for example (and the utter madness of a lot of the lefts dealings with them). When I first starting reading that blog years back ( I actually found this web site from them and my first exposure to tim's unpleasantness was on there too) they had some really interesting articles written by a guy who had visited Syria .

    All pre ISIS but very eye opening.

    Is Tim still tweeting, would be interesting to see what he says about this attack
    I loathed the way he bullied people, so I do not follow his diseased, poisonous ramblings.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Just noted the fact that 41 people were killed in Beirut by Islamic State. Barely made it in the news !
    IS now have the entire west, Russia, and half of the middle east against them. Surely they can't have too long...

    The Chinese also have their own Islamist problem.
    And India and Thailand and the Philippines. And many Burmese don't seem to like their Muslim minority.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,931
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    Oh I suspect that a number of those Muslim groups that pop up with depressing frequency have been infiltrated quite thoroughly.

    But the challenge to ideas needs to happen out in the open and it hasn't, or not often enough.
    We might find all this 'infiltration' very comforting, but consider that the killers of Lee Rigby were known to the security services. The 7-7 bombers too. At what point does state involvement in terror groups need to be questioned?
  • FPT:

    Pong said:

    That claim of responsibility is interesting.

    "It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe: Paris." ... "[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party" ...

    These people reeeeally need to get laid.

    A long thread to catch up on after a busy day!

    A martyr is someone who dies for their faith, not one who kills for it. One of many things that the Islamists have wrong.

    They do seem to have a very confused attitude to sex. If Allah hates fornication, prostitution, etc on earth then why would he tolerate it in heaven? The very idea of 72 virgins (with sexual favours) for wiping out harlots is rather self contradictory.
    Lost in translation - 72 Virgin Trains
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,931
    chestnut said:

    What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?

    Nothing.

    They are suffering the consequential problems of sexual and social repression associated with their oppressive religion.
    I don't remember the Victorians blowing everyone up.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,535

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    That there have been so few attacks is no doubt one pointer.
    Yes, there have been plenty of people who've wanted to carry out a similar attack in the UK over the last 10 years. That they haven't yet managed it is a considerable tribute to the unheralded but vital work of our intelligence services.
    Yawn, they are too busy looking at our web histories. What a leap of faith or should I say fantasy.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,535

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
  • MikeL said:

    tyson said:

    I think everyone here can be agreed upon one single thing; Jeremy Corbyn is not the man you want to be leading your country in this kind of crisis. He is fine as a pressure group politician, but the compromises that you require for saying the right things, and setting the right tone, for bringing people with you, Corbyn just cannot do this. It is simply not in him.

    Hollande was hamfisted today, but he played the political leader (sort of) well. Blair was good, Clinton too- OK, not quite Churchill, but not bad.

    And, also, we can all now see why Ed lost. Britain will never vote in as PM someone who hasn't the credibility to do the basics well- and the basics very much include leading the country through a crisis.

    Yup - and Cameron scores very highly on all these skills.

    Forget all policies - when a non-committed middle of the road voter looks at the candidates for PM then if one of them looks head and shoulders above the others as if they look, feel and sound like a PM then that person is going to get "extra" votes because of it. Not necessarily many - but some - and 2% or 3% "extra" votes because of this makes all the difference.
    Cameron is not on offer in 2020 though
    Tbh, Cameron didn't come across at all to me (or for that matter, most people I know) as scoring high on any of traits outlined above. He won 2015 because he was the least worst option. I don't see any massive enthusiasm for Cameron in the outside world.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Dair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile on the left:

    https://i.imgur.com/yvG3PwT.jpg

    It's almost comical. Multiculturalism is an utter, abhorrent, dangerous, destructive failure. It was the Lefts way of avoiding the need to question those views of (particularly but not exclusively) Islamists which did not fit with the Lefts mindset.

    So their solution is... more Multiculturalism.
    Take a walk around Whitechapel and you don't see multi-culturalism.

    You see a micro mono-culture that has annexed an area, and which is incompatible with the broader UK culture.

    Only idiots like Corbyn still see it as multi-culti.

    That said, the problems of incompatibility seem fairly unique to Islam even with this ghetto development.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,172
    edited November 2015

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Coming back from the Midlands on the train into Euston last night, I saw it was orange, white and green in honour of Indian electro-pop group Depeche Modi.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    chestnut said:

    What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?

    Nothing.

    They are suffering the consequential problems of sexual and social repression associated with their oppressive religion.
    I don't remember the Victorians blowing everyone up.
    Unless you're 140 years old, I don't suppose you would.
  • Yorkcity said:

    perdix said:

    The author is right that we must not blame all Muslims but we have invited into our country people who follow a religion which says we are inferior and must be overcome. It only takes one nut job with a Kalashnikov to do a lot of damage.
    There are supposedly thousands of illegal aliens in this country. Although I once hated the idea we must resurrect ID cards.

    No we must not. It would not make a blind bit of difference. France has ID cards. It made no difference last night.
    How do you know ?

    Especially at the football stadium.
    According to the news the result at the football stadium was because the security spotted the suicide vest.

    As for the idea that last night was in any way a success for ID cards? Excuse me if a laugh scornfully.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Daily Mail is reporting one of those involved was thought to be just 15.

    Yesterday there was an interview with one of the self-elected Muslim groups about the death of Jihadi John. The spokesman was taking the line that it was a shame that Jihadi John had not been taken alive, so we could work out how he had been converted to extremism.

    The idea that Jihadi John could be expected to tell the truth as opposed to what advances his own warped view is naive in the extreme. It's certainly not a good reason why he should have been captured alive.

    But we do need to understand why young men and women are being perverted in this manner. The answers will not be simple, and a combination of a whole host of factors. Only when we understand this can we start tackling extremism at home.

    Why do you girls run away to ISIS? Why did Jihadi Jane convert?

    What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?
    A few articles on the subject by Theodore Dalrymple:

    http://www.city-journal.org/2009/bc0716td.html
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_2_when_islam.html
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_urbanities-terrorists.html
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,225
    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,535

    MikeL said:

    tyson said:

    I think everyone here can be agreed upon one single thing; Jeremy Corbyn is not the man you want to be leading your country in this kind of crisis. He is fine as a pressure group politician, but the compromises that you require for saying the right things, and setting the right tone, for bringing people with you, Corbyn just cannot do this. It is simply not in him.

    Hollande was hamfisted today, but he played the political leader (sort of) well. Blair was good, Clinton too- OK, not quite Churchill, but not bad.

    And, also, we can all now see why Ed lost. Britain will never vote in as PM someone who hasn't the credibility to do the basics well- and the basics very much include leading the country through a crisis.

    Yup - and Cameron scores very highly on all these skills.

    Forget all policies - when a non-committed middle of the road voter looks at the candidates for PM then if one of them looks head and shoulders above the others as if they look, feel and sound like a PM then that person is going to get "extra" votes because of it. Not necessarily many - but some - and 2% or 3% "extra" votes because of this makes all the difference.
    Cameron is not on offer in 2020 though
    Tbh, Cameron didn't come across at all to me (or for that matter, most people I know) as scoring high on any of traits outlined above. He won 2015 because he was the least worst option. I don't see any massive enthusiasm for Cameron in the outside world.
    Very true but sure to have the frothers lambasting you
  • Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    I was born and raised in Wembley, and when my eldest brother was over from France recently I took him all around the area. The change is astonishing with the mosque down Ealing Road the worst.

    He liked the Ace Cafe though, he hadn't been in there since 1962!
  • Pulpstar said:

    Just noted the fact that 41 people were killed in Beirut by Islamic State. Barely made it in the news !
    IS now have the entire west, Russia, and half of the middle east against them. Surely they can't have too long...

    The Chinese also have their own Islamist problem.
    And India and Thailand and the Philippines. And many Burmese don't seem to like their Muslim minority.
    Is there a country in the world with a substantial Muslim population that doesn't have a terrorist problem? You do not get the first without the second.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,535
    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
  • tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    This morning The Times reviewed The Ottoman Endgame - War, Revolution and The Making of The Modern Middle East by Sean McMeekin.

    Might be worth looking out for.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Plenty of people think the key factor on the EU referendum will be immigration, the fact that one of the maniacs was a refugee weakens the Europhile stance enormously. Cameron's "demands" pale into insignificance against the ability to control borders.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    I have to admit things like that do sometimes feel like the ultimate example of "virtue signalling" to me.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,709
    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    No. Showing solidarity it valuable.
  • Plenty of people think the key factor on the EU referendum will be immigration, the fact that one of the maniacs was a refugee weakens the Europhile stance enormously. Cameron's "demands" pale into insignificance against the ability to control borders.

    Not really. We've almost all said for years that at the end of the day for the public it comes to jobs vs immigration. Whether that's right or wrong is another question. Nothing in the last 24 hours changes that.
  • tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    That there have been so few attacks is no doubt one pointer.
    Yes, there have been plenty of people who've wanted to carry out a similar attack in the UK over the last 10 years. That they haven't yet managed it is a considerable tribute to the unheralded but vital work of our intelligence services.
    Yawn, they are too busy looking at our web histories. What a leap of faith or should I say fantasy.
    I suspect that the web histories of some people are very interesting indeed. The spooks are not interested in our ramblings here, or how many funny cat video's I watch. Who follows who on islamist twitter or Facebook is more revealing.

    I suspect our spooks have extensively infiltrated some networks and between informers and eavesdropping have quite a lot of intelligence. That is how Jihadi John met his fate. His friends now will be looking over their shoulders and watching every speck in the sky. We may well have another stakeknife out there.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    As are the Empire State Building and One World Trade Center, but you'd need to be on a higher floor to see them......
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    perdix said:

    The author is right that we must not blame all Muslims but we have invited into our country people who follow a religion which says we are inferior and must be overcome. It only takes one nut job with a Kalashnikov to do a lot of damage.
    There are supposedly thousands of illegal aliens in this country. Although I once hated the idea we must resurrect ID cards.

    No we must not. It would not make a blind bit of difference. France has ID cards. It made no difference last night.
    How do you know ?

    Especially at the football stadium.
    According to the news the result at the football stadium was because the security spotted the suicide vest.

    As for the idea that last night was in any way a success for ID cards? Excuse me if a laugh scornfully.
    Laugh all you like Richard , they could have a part to play in entering venues.
    Especially if you had technology similar to ANPR.
    The intelligence could be helpful.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,535
    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    No. Showing solidarity it valuable.
    I don't see it as solidarity or valuable.It is just Me Me Me , people desperate to be part of something, anything.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    No. Showing solidarity it valuable.
    Where was the option to change your picture when people die in terrorist attacks in the middle east? Oh wait, there wasn't one.
  • malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    Being humane is not pathetic. I agree with Mr Tyndall, its just like an electronic hug. Nobody thinks it will solve the problem but its its not pathetic it empathetic.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?"

    Fresh air, healthy exercise especially cross-country running and, most of all, rugger.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Plenty of people think the key factor on the EU referendum will be immigration, the fact that one of the maniacs was a refugee weakens the Europhile stance enormously. Cameron's "demands" pale into insignificance against the ability to control borders.

    Not really. We've almost all said for years that at the end of the day for the public it comes to jobs vs immigration. Whether that's right or wrong is another question. Nothing in the last 24 hours changes that.
    Maniacs posing as refugees throwing grenades in cafes changes nothing, despite 24/7 news coverage?

    That's the thing with europhiles, they simply can't or won't understand that as a whole the electorate doesn't do nuance, they see people over the water doing bad things.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2015

    Plenty of people think the key factor on the EU referendum will be immigration, the fact that one of the maniacs was a refugee weakens the Europhile stance enormously. Cameron's "demands" pale into insignificance against the ability to control borders.

    Not really. We've almost all said for years that at the end of the day for the public it comes to jobs vs immigration. Whether that's right or wrong is another question. Nothing in the last 24 hours changes that.
    The bookies disagree, as do punters

    Big move towards LEAVE
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,535
    RobD said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    No. Showing solidarity it valuable.
    Where was the option to change your picture when people die in terrorist attacks in the middle east? Oh wait, there wasn't one.
    Exactly Rob, they have this every day of the week around the world and it is totally ignored in favour of x-factor and such like, pathetic.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    A respectful minutes silence, then a robust thrashing of the frogs by Mr Vardy please!

    I shall react to these attacks by visiting trendy bars and cafes, going to football matches and heavy metal concerts (Download has a splendid line up in June). I shall treat terrorist threats with the contempt that they have earned.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    Yes, the suggestion that the game should be cancelled was wrong.

    I'm almost tempted to let the French win (winky emoticon)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,535
    edited November 2015

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    Being humane is not pathetic. I agree with Mr Tyndall, its just like an electronic hug. Nobody thinks it will solve the problem but its its not pathetic it empathetic.
    Did anyone do it last month when Saudi/US bombed a wedding in Yemen and killed a few hundred. No it was not even in the news here, ignored totally. Very selective with their empathy.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    A respectful minutes silence, then a robust thrashing of the frogs by Mr Vardy please!

    I shall react to these attacks by visiting trendy bars and cafes, going to football matches and heavy metal concerts (Download has a splendid line up in June). I shall treat terrorist threats with the contempt that they have earned.
    REST HIM!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    I see that Twitter has taken down IDS_MP, so much for free speech or freedom of expression. Looks as if some people can't even pick out the word parody when it is clear enough in the profile.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,225

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    It's fine - I know most people are just showing they care and aren't virtue signalling lefties! Another friend of mine has liked a page about how many Iraqis have been killed recently and that if Christians and Jews kill Muslims they shouldn't be surprised when Muslims kill them. He's also just liked the following post:

    "RIP to all the innocent people who lost their lives in Paris but whilst I show solidarity with the French people I'm not gonna fly the flag of an imperial power on Facebook"

    I care as much about those killed in Iraq as those in Paris. The reason the latter gets attention in the media is that it is (or at least was) rare. We also have, in theory, more control on what goes on in our own countries and if it is the case that one of the terrorists came into Europe as a Syrian refugee that will have very serious implications.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    A respectful minutes silence, then a robust thrashing of the frogs by Mr Vardy please!

    I shall react to these attacks by visiting trendy bars and cafes, going to football matches and heavy metal concerts (Download has a splendid line up in June). I shall treat terrorist threats with the contempt that they have earned.
    I say, steady on, Doc! I agree with the tenor of your post but going to visit trendy bars? At your age? Are you sure?
  • malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    No. Showing solidarity it valuable.
    Where was the option to change your picture when people die in terrorist attacks in the middle east? Oh wait, there wasn't one.
    Exactly Rob, they have this every day of the week around the world and it is totally ignored in favour of x-factor and such like, pathetic.
    France is the country next door and Paris is closer for some people than parts of the UK. It is normal to feel more solidarity for those close to home.
  • malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    That there have been so few attacks is no doubt one pointer.
    Yes, there have been plenty of people who've wanted to carry out a similar attack in the UK over the last 10 years. That they haven't yet managed it is a considerable tribute to the unheralded but vital work of our intelligence services.
    Yawn, they are too busy looking at our web histories. What a leap of faith or should I say fantasy.
    I suspect that the web histories of some people are very interesting indeed. The spooks are not interested in our ramblings here, or how many funny cat video's I watch. Who follows who on islamist twitter or Facebook is more revealing.

    I suspect our spooks have extensively infiltrated some networks and between informers and eavesdropping have quite a lot of intelligence. That is how Jihadi John met his fate. His friends now will be looking over their shoulders and watching every speck in the sky. We may well have another stakeknife out there.
    Did anyone watch Channel 4's recent Hunted series? Was a fascinating insight into how this sort of intelligence works in a manhunt of a fugitive as one example.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Tim_B said:

    Paris prosecutor says 7 attackers died last night. All attackers wore explosive belts.

    "You don't win wars by dying for your country." - Patton.
    If you keep getting the casualty rate at an average of 18 to 1 then I suspect that quotation might not be as accurate as it was originally intended.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346

    "What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?"

    Fresh air, healthy exercise especially cross-country running and, most of all, rugger.

    I don't see why we should assume that there is anything missing from our society at all. There may be something missing from their lives or there may be too much of something malign in their lives. But I refuse to accept that we are to blame when people choose to do evil. These people have chosen evil.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    Being humane is not pathetic. I agree with Mr Tyndall, its just like an electronic hug. Nobody thinks it will solve the problem but its its not pathetic it empathetic.
    Did anyone do it last month when Saudi/US bombed a wedding in Yemen and killed a few hundred. No it was not even in the news here, ignored totally. Very selective with their empathy.
    Weddings in these places are not innocent celebrations. They are very often political arranged marriages to cement alliances. We are dealing with a medival mindset that bases itself on the life of a prophet who "married" a six year old girl to cement a political alliance.

    If we want to win this war we cannot be too squeamish about civilian casualties in enemy controlled areas.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    Being humane is not pathetic. I agree with Mr Tyndall, its just like an electronic hug. Nobody thinks it will solve the problem but its its not pathetic it empathetic.
    Did anyone do it last month when Saudi/US bombed a wedding in Yemen and killed a few hundred. No it was not even in the news here, ignored totally. Very selective with their empathy.
    TBH Malcolm I didn't do it and wouldn't because I'm not going to pretend to have empathy when none exists. I feel sorrow for Paris because it is a city I know well, have lived and worked in and I have family and friends there. I don't go in for Twitter emoticons and the rest which I think are a bit "meh" and too often a substitute for any real action.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    Pathetic , just like the hysteria over Diana, sad people who have no clue. It is alll look at me I am sympathetic when in fact they are just pathetic. They will have moved on to something else by Monday.
    Being humane is not pathetic. I agree with Mr Tyndall, its just like an electronic hug. Nobody thinks it will solve the problem but its its not pathetic it empathetic.
    Did anyone do it last month when Saudi/US bombed a wedding in Yemen and killed a few hundred. No it was not even in the news here, ignored totally. Very selective with their empathy.
    France is more than just our next door neighbour, Paris is a city most of us have probably been to. I have been to Paris many times, I have relatives who live in France and this is simply close to home in many ways.

    If a tragedy hits my next door neighbour I'd feel more empathy for her than I would for a random stranger elsewhere.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    You are assuming that a lack of visible action = no action.

    Consider - the radical Muslim lot in this country are utterly convinced that their ranks are full of spies. Might be paranoia, but something makes them think that they are being betrayed all the time...
    That there have been so few attacks is no doubt one pointer.
    Yes, there have been plenty of people who've wanted to carry out a similar attack in the UK over the last 10 years. That they haven't yet managed it is a considerable tribute to the unheralded but vital work of our intelligence services.
    Yawn, they are too busy looking at our web histories. What a leap of faith or should I say fantasy.
    I suspect that the web histories of some people are very interesting indeed. The spooks are not interested in our ramblings here, or how many funny cat video's I watch. Who follows who on islamist twitter or Facebook is more revealing.

    I suspect our spooks have extensively infiltrated some networks and between informers and eavesdropping have quite a lot of intelligence. That is how Jihadi John met his fate. His friends now will be looking over their shoulders and watching every speck in the sky. We may well have another stakeknife out there.
    Did anyone watch Channel 4's recent Hunted series? Was a fascinating insight into how this sort of intelligence works in a manhunt of a fugitive as one example.
    It was an eyeopener. One thing that betrayed nearly all of the fugutives was that they could not resist for long the temptation to contact relatives via phone or internet, or use a cashpoint. Then the trap sprung. Fascinating viewing.
  • tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Incidentally from my flat (in Acton) I have a view of the Wembley arch. It's currently lit up with the red, white and blue of the tricolor.

    Wow that will help
    My Facebook is filled up with people changing their profile pictures to include the tricolor. People seems to think that they must do something.
    I have done the same. It is meaningless in any real practical sense of course and will change nothing but since I have a dozen or more French friends it is a way of showing that I do actually care about them. Consider it an electronic hug.
    I'm sure the crowd at Wembley on Tuseday night will show their solidarity
    Yes, the suggestion that the game should be cancelled was wrong.

    I'm almost tempted to let the French win (winky emoticon)
    ;)
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    FPT:

    Pong said:

    That claim of responsibility is interesting.

    "It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe: Paris." ... "[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party" ...

    These people reeeeally need to get laid.

    A long thread to catch up on after a busy day!

    A martyr is someone who dies for their faith, not one who kills for it. One of many things that the Islamists have wrong.

    They do seem to have a very confused attitude to sex. If Allah hates fornication, prostitution, etc on earth then why would he tolerate it in heaven? The very idea of 72 virgins (with sexual favours) for wiping out harlots is rather self contradictory.
    Most religions are a method of control over large numbers of people.

    Islam does not fit this profile. It is a Warlord's method of promoting his plans of conquest and rewarding those who support his aims.

    Once you understand that, Islam makes a great deal of sense.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539
    AndyJS said:

    Daily Mail is reporting one of those involved was thought to be just 15.

    Yesterday there was an interview with one of the self-elected Muslim groups about the death of Jihadi John. The spokesman was taking the line that it was a shame that Jihadi John had not been taken alive, so we could work out how he had been converted to extremism.

    The idea that Jihadi John could be expected to tell the truth as opposed to what advances his own warped view is naive in the extreme. It's certainly not a good reason why he should have been captured alive.

    But we do need to understand why young men and women are being perverted in this manner. The answers will not be simple, and a combination of a whole host of factors. Only when we understand this can we start tackling extremism at home.

    Why do you girls run away to ISIS? Why did Jihadi Jane convert?

    What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?
    A few articles on the subject by Theodore Dalrymple:

    http://www.city-journal.org/2009/bc0716td.html
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_2_when_islam.html
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_urbanities-terrorists.html
    Thanks.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Dair said:

    FPT:

    Pong said:

    That claim of responsibility is interesting.

    "It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe: Paris." ... "[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party" ...

    These people reeeeally need to get laid.

    A long thread to catch up on after a busy day!

    A martyr is someone who dies for their faith, not one who kills for it. One of many things that the Islamists have wrong.

    They do seem to have a very confused attitude to sex. If Allah hates fornication, prostitution, etc on earth then why would he tolerate it in heaven? The very idea of 72 virgins (with sexual favours) for wiping out harlots is rather self contradictory.
    Most religions are a method of control over large numbers of people.

    Islam does not fit this profile. It is a Warlord's method of promoting his plans of conquest and rewarding those who support his aims.

    Once you understand that, Islam makes a great deal of sense.
    For years I've wondered why the 99% of peace loving Muslims don't organise marches or protests. It's either they can't be arsed or through fear or intimidation, as if the Stasi will report them for so much as suggesting it.

    I'd love to see tens of thousands of Muslim/British Asians marching to express their disgust or disappointment, it would do everybody the world of good.

  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    chestnut said:

    Dair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile on the left:

    https://i.imgur.com/yvG3PwT.jpg

    It's almost comical. Multiculturalism is an utter, abhorrent, dangerous, destructive failure. It was the Lefts way of avoiding the need to question those views of (particularly but not exclusively) Islamists which did not fit with the Lefts mindset.

    So their solution is... more Multiculturalism.
    Take a walk around Whitechapel and you don't see multi-culturalism.

    You see a micro mono-culture that has annexed an area, and which is incompatible with the broader UK culture.

    Only idiots like Corbyn still see it as multi-culti.

    That said, the problems of incompatibility seem fairly unique to Islam even with this ghetto development.
    Err, that's what Multiculturalism is.

    It is a racist philosophy of Apartheid.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A lot of hysteria over this. A horrendous attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is going to be taking over Downing Street or that every Muslim in the UK is going to be a suicide bomber. Yes, it's horrible that 128 have died but 15 times as many will die in road traffic accidents this year. We give terrorism far more coverage and allow it to affect our lives far more than it deserves (which, of course, is the terrorists' aim)

    The head in the sand approach has worked so well up to now, hasn't it?
    No one is saying that there shouldn't be counter-terrorism, which on the whole seems to work well: the vast majority of terror plots are stopped. Charlie Hebdo was the first serious attack in Europe since 7/7. But some of the solution being advocated on here such as "banning" Islam are completely out of scale compared to the threat.
    Counter-terrorism is certainly needed. Over-reaction should be avoided because it risks being the wrong reaction. But action is certainly needed. The ideology which underpins this needs to be countered. Banning Islam is not IMO the solution.

    But telling Muslims in Britain that Islam can have no political role in our country is needed. We need to make clear that freedom of religion in Britain means the freedom to follow a religion or not but that it emphatically does not mean that you can impose it on others or expect others to respect what you believe (as opposed to your right to believe whatever it is you want). And we need to make it clear that where there is a clash between religious belief and the law of the land the latter prevails.

    We need to say to people that you can be whatever religion you want or none but as far as we - and your fellow Britons are concerned - this is your private affair. If it means more to you (a Muslim) to be living in an Islamic state then that is your choice. But what you cannot do is seek to create an Islamic state of Britain or in Britain and nor can you expect others to accept or abide by the tenets of the faith you have chosen. If you want tolerance you have to give it - and to things/people you may not like and which may offend you. But you will have to suck it up.

    This is all very reasonable and rational to a tolerant mind so has absolutely no chance of being accepted by most Moslems, extremist, radical or plain vanilla.
  • TheGord said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just noted the fact that 41 people were killed in Beirut by Islamic State. Barely made it in the news !
    IS now have the entire west, Russia, and half of the middle east against them. Surely they can't have too long...

    The Chinese also have their own Islamist problem.
    And India and Thailand and the Philippines. And many Burmese don't seem to like their Muslim minority.
    Is there a country in the world with a substantial Muslim population that doesn't have a terrorist problem? You do not get the first without the second.
    Germany?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited November 2015
    It seems in the Syrian peace talks they are getting close to an agreement:

    http://bigstory.ap.org/f507339b48ad4411ab76225fe2d51ff2

    "Invoking the need for joint action after the terrorist attacks on Paris, foreign ministers of nearly 20 nations agreed Saturday to an ambitious yet incomplete plan for bringing peace to Syria and ending its role as a breeding ground for ISIS and other radical Islamic groups."

    "It sets a Jan. 1 deadline for the start of negotiations between President Bashar Assad's government and opposition groups. Lavrov said the Syrian government already had put forward its representatives, with the U.N. special envoy for Syria, Staffan de Mistura, to begin immediate work on determining who should sit at the table as part of the opposition team.

    Within six months, the negotiations between the Syrian sides are to establish "credible, inclusive and non-sectarian" transitional government that would set a schedule for drafting a new constitution and holding a free and fair U.N.-supervised election within 18 months, according to a joint statement released by the United Nations on behalf of the 19 parties to the talks."
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    The Catholics were responsible for the slaughter of the Crusades.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Yorkcity said:

    perdix said:

    The author is right that we must not blame all Muslims but we have invited into our country people who follow a religion which says we are inferior and must be overcome. It only takes one nut job with a Kalashnikov to do a lot of damage.
    There are supposedly thousands of illegal aliens in this country. Although I once hated the idea we must resurrect ID cards.

    No we must not. It would not make a blind bit of difference. France has ID cards. It made no difference last night.
    How do you know ?

    Especially at the football stadium.
    Always difficult to prove a negative so any "no difference" argument is invalid without proof.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Cyclefree said:

    "What is missing from their lives and our society that makes ISIS such a compelling alternative?"

    Fresh air, healthy exercise especially cross-country running and, most of all, rugger.

    I don't see why we should assume that there is anything missing from our society at all. There may be something missing from their lives or there may be too much of something malign in their lives. But I refuse to accept that we are to blame when people choose to do evil. These people have chosen evil.
    I don't think that they did choose evil, Mrs Free. We might see it that way but I very much doubt that they did.

    Please don't misunderstand me, I don't seek to make excuses or suggest that the "West" is to blame or any other of that nonsense but I really doubt that many, if any, criminals are motivated by a choice to do evil. Some may not know the difference between right and wrong, some may just be greedy to satisfy their own desires and don't care about others, some may think they are acting in pursuit of a greater good but those are not choices for evil.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    notme said:

    Quakerism is a peaceful religion. Islam is not.

    Bhuddism is not perfect, but compare events in Burma to the Middle East. Daw Aung Sun Suu Kyi led a peaceful campaign and now is in control of the Burmese Parliament. That is the real geo-political event of the week, a real Mandela moment.

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Jonathan said:
    Thing is that people are missing. Border controls were reinstated yesterday and as such these people were caught in transit. What they needed to do was catch them in transit on the way to the target. Had we not had Schengen then it is entirely possible that at least some might have been stopped on the way.

    Schengen is dead, finished, kaput.

    Just like Merkel who should have already resigned and slunk off the world stage never to be heard of again except when people talk of her folly.
This discussion has been closed.