I can see the argument for a temporary leader of Labour and the desire to have a leader that is still relatively new and novel by the next election but I actually think Labour need to decide on someone now.
If even half of what we have read in the last few days is right then the Labour party under Ed has become so fundamentally dysfunctional that there are years of work to do.
The electoral machine needs to be reworked almost from scratch learning from what the Tories did this time and also what went wrong in their own campaign.
Scotland needs to do something radical and possibly independently as a free standing but associated party. SLAB, a traditional bastion of support, is now on life support and needs a leader that Scots are willing to listen to and have some empathy with.
Labour have got to work out an economic policy that is even vaguely credible and then, even more importantly, accept the implications of that policy in terms of their spending and priorities.
The absurd back of a fag packet headline grabbing nonsense that we saw under Ed absolutely has to stop.
The base in local government, which slipped back yet again last week, needs rebuilt to build a base on which seats can be won.
Above all a sense of purpose is required. Values are all very well but they need to lead to practical results that impact on ordinary peoples' lives. As we have vividly seen this cannot be done in the election campaign. It needs to be done over a period of years.
I have doubts that 5 years is going to be enough to accomplish all this. Labour certainly don't have 3 years to waste.
It really speaks volumes when there are apparently serious suggestions that people like Starmer and Kendall should be candidates. These are people who've basically done naff all worthy of note and in Starmer's case he's been an MP for a week.
I still think Butcher will get it, only to crash to Kinnockesque defeat come 2020.
Can't find any statements from Pugh & Carmichael on a cursory Google.
I'm not sure Clegg will endorse anyone. Or he won't endorse Lamb if he has any sense. Lamb will be his prefferred candidate but Clegg is utterly toxic now.
I'm not sure Clegg will endorse anyone. Or he won't endorse Lamb if he has any sense. Lamb will be his prefferred candidate but Clegg is utterly toxic now.
Clearly Clegg won't endorse - it's (a) standard for ex-leaders and (b) not necessarily helpful to Lamb. But I was just interested about the party balance of the MPs - if the other two break for Farron it's tough to see how Lamb can lead them. Conversely if they broke for Lamb it would give him a better chance with the membership.
Probably best to let actual LDs comment on this though...
@christopherhope: BREAKING Raheem Kassam, Nigel Farage's chief of staff, has left Ukip. the party's leadership has confirmed. More at: http://t.co/8HvGLMfwaY
I can't see how throwing Nigel's CoStaff under the bus solves the actual issue in play - Short money. Nor the bad blood between O'Flynn/Carswell/Wheeler vs Farage & Co.
Stunning , bare faced hypocrisy from Yevette Cooper who States on the news that Labour the reason they lost was that they did not get their message across as a result of the nasty Tories frightening people about the SNP. That was a reasonable fear given the statements from the SNP of what they intended to do to Edstone and Labour in general.
Meanwhile Labour and she herself regularly shouted from the rooftops that there were only X number of days/ hours to save the NHS which was direct attempt to frighten the populace as well as the most vulnerable in our society or as they used to call them before "the old the sick and the needy"
Farage has to go now surely. His position is untenable.
Ludicrous mess, had he just sought re-election in the autumn as he'd said in his faux resignation then this wouldn't have been an issue.
Dunno - these two chumps have been thrown to the lions to take the heat off.
A knowledge of similar cases should tell Farage etc that this won't be enough and either Farage goes or his detractors do - I would think Farage is incapable of changing and so he'll either have to be booted out causing a split or Carswell 'OFlynn etc will be booted out causing a split - even if Farage resigns he's done that before and driven the party from the back seat so even him stepping down won't change anything
If Ukip want to please people who are tribally attached to the other parties and who would never vote Ukip in a million years, I suppose it might be a good idea to get rid of Farage
Farage has to go now surely. His position is untenable.
Ludicrous mess, had he just sought re-election in the autumn as he'd said in his faux resignation then this wouldn't have been an issue.
I don't know how Farage thought he could credibly go back to being party leader after his 'promise' anyway. It completely undermines the image he's creation for himself as this honest, straight-talking politician, and makes him come across as duplicitous and egotistical. Also seems that there's many within UKIP who don't particularly like him, either....
"Take us with you, Scotland" say thousands in North of England BBC Trending
Looks like the Westminster old boys network are succeeding in splitting off more than just Scotland! We're with Nicola or want to be.
I don't see that Westminster has anything to do with it in this instance. It's just that some very Labour areas don't like Tories but do like the SNP, who are not Tories. Real shocker there. Nothing cultural or regional about it all, just pure politics, and ignoring all those Tory bits between them and the border of course.
There's not a part of you Isam that thinks that Farage's credibility is at least slightly shot now?
Isn't the job of the UKIP leader to be able to expand support and not just preach to the converted. I don't think non-Kippers are going to continue to be won over by Farage and even the converted are starting to rebel.
So an MEP suggests his party leader's campaign wasn't run as well as it could have been and the bloke responsible for the campaign gets the push, even those determined to spend their lives discrediting Ukip have to admit this really isn't a big deal.
So an MEP suggests his party leader's campaign wasn't run as well as it could have been and the bloke responsible for the campaign gets the push, even those determined to spend their lives discrediting Ukip have to admit this really isn't a big deal.
Stunning , bare faced hypocrisy from Yevette Cooper who States on the news that Labour the reason they lost was that they did not get their message across as a result of the nasty Tories frightening people about the SNP. That was a reasonable fear given the statements from the SNP of what they intended to do to Edstone and Labour in general.
Meanwhile Labour and she herself regularly shouted from the rooftops that there were only X number of days/ hours to save the NHS which was direct attempt to frighten the populace as well as the most vulnerable in our society or as they used to call them before "the old the sick and the needy"
Its rather bizarre logic too. "The mean Tories campaigned against us" is why we lost. Seriously? Even if that were a fair comment, what are you going to do about it?
In five years time when Labour says "three days to save the NHS" do you think the Tories won't be campaigning?
There's not a part of you Isam that thinks that Farage's credibility is at least slightly shot now?
Isn't the job of the UKIP leader to be able to expand support and not just preach to the converted. I don't think non-Kippers are going to continue to be won over by Farage and even the converted are starting to rebel.
I am always honest on here and will tell the truth as I see it
Without Farage I think Ukip would be almost over and done with.. That's why the conservatives were so keen to bt him in Thanet, and why Ukip didn't get any flak post GE until Farages resignation was rejected
You only need look at the posts on here
He must stay and I think he will
If Mourinho said he was quitting Chelsea then stayed id be gutted... I was gutted when he came back in fact as I knew that meant they'd be better
There's not much more to it than that really
Ukip supporters love Farage , he is revered by the party and in all likelihood it was resentment of Kasseem and Richardson that fuelled o Flynns remarks
If you want to stereotype Ukip you could say it was unwillingness to accept newcomers!
The UK Independence Party has descended into open civil war with one of the party’s biggest donors describing its sole MP Douglas Carswell as “duplicitous”, and attacking its general election campaign chief as “hopeless” and “weak”.
Arron Banks, who gave £1million to the party last October, attacked a “little clique that is trying to destabilise” Nigel Farage after he reversed a decision this week to resign as leader.
In our interview, Mr Banks shed more light on the row over whether Ukip should accept more than £3million in public money due to it after it won nearly four million votes in last week’s election.
16.34 Senior Ukippers twist the knife
This has just come in from Matthew Holehouse:
I've been speaking to senior Ukip members, many of whom are convinced Farage has to go.
His refusal to quit last week was regarded as the final straw, and galvanised years of run-ins with rivals such as Patrick O'Flynn and Godfrey Bloom.
“He is very deceitful. He is a backstabber," said one. “He falls out with people, treads on them and walks on. This is the last time he does that. I hope he will be gone by the end of the week.”
So an MEP suggests his party leader's campaign wasn't run as well as it could have been and the bloke responsible for the campaign gets the push, even those determined to spend their lives discrediting Ukip have to admit this really isn't a big deal.
If only the country was run as well as Ukip.
See what I mean? If there was another election tomorrow Ukip would get more votes than last week, this is a total non-story, get over yourself
My prediction is they will lose Kassam and the other bod.
Once all the pawns have been taken the king is very exposed.
Ooh SeanT has a rival!
Look, I agree with you that Farage has helped get to 4 million supporters. But it looks like he's not the right leader for the party now. Not to mention the referendum issue.
Re: By-elections - I wouldn't assume there would even be an anti-govt swing in any early by-elections - it's just as likely that Cameron could increase his majority if the right seat came up. I'd put the LDs as the least likely to benefit from an anti-govt swing too - I think the mood out there is one of indifference. I wouldn't be misled by the membership surge either.
On another note - I was surprised at some unlikely GE trends - Bishop Auckland in the NE and several Labour seats in N Wales trending blue. Also in the NW - in Barrow and Workington of all places. Hither and thither when you root around you find these changes occurring slowly and steadily. Not so obvious elsewhere except maybe for Labour in parts of London.
Nigel shouldn’t go. He’s the most substantial and respected figure in the party and he is absolutely the right person to fight the referendum campaign.
Speaking for myself, I'm not saying I think he will go, I'm saying I think he should go. The two are completely different things. I've been saying it since before the election, and I think the man walks on water.
Louise Mensch @LouiseMensch · 39m39 minutes ago .@RaheemKassam are you around tomorrow? I would LOVE to hear how you managed this. I'll buy as you're "short money" #Carswell #Ferrets
I recon Farage has to go on question time if he is to remain leader. If he cancels, or ducks it, he's a goner - It's his one chance to reassert authority.
Anyway, I know nothing of the UKIP dynamics & can only judge farage from afar, but I think he sees UKIP as *his* and will fight to the very last to stop his baby being taken away. His chance to resign with his dignity intact has past - and that was immensely important to Nigel.
Now his back is against the wall and he'll fight on to the very last.
My prediction is they will lose Kassam and the other bod.
Once all the pawns have been taken the king is very exposed.
Ooh SeanT has a rival!
Look, I agree with you that Farage has helped get to 4 million supporters. But it looks like he's not the right leader for the party now. Not to mention the referendum issue.
We have to agree to disagree. There is no one close in the party to replace him
It really is like wenger/Mourinho/fergie/curbs/clough leaving their club
I know you, and most people on here, aren't Ukip supporters and want them to do badly, so obv hope stands down... And as always on here, people say what they want to happen, then go round the houses justifying it so it sounds logical and unbiased. But the truth is that Farage is Ukips biggest asset
This is the real issue for BOOers, not Kippers per se
Former Ukip deputy leader David Campbell-Bannerman MEP, who left the party to join the Conservatives in 2011, has written a piece for the Telegraph saying Nigel Farage should resign as he risks being the "jester of the Eurosceptic movement".
it's good to see the Telegraph has a live blog on the UKIP crisis - comments galore being reported back in from all the key party members, but for a smidgeon of misfortune there could have been 108 UKIP MPs to provide comments on all this.
I know you, and most people on here, aren't Ukip supporters and want them to do badly, so obv hope stands down... And as always on here, people say what they want to happen, then go round the houses justifying it so it sounds logical and unbiased. But the truth is that Farage is Ukips biggest asset
He's an asset in the country, I agree - but you have to be able to manage a party too. And I don't mind if UKIP does well, to be honest - Labour in particular deserve the kick up the arse that they are getting for neglecting their original supporters.
Mostly I'm interested in the internal politics of it all.
My prediction is they will lose Kassam and the other bod.
Once all the pawns have been taken the king is very exposed.
Ooh SeanT has a rival!
Look, I agree with you that Farage has helped get to 4 million supporters. But it looks like he's not the right leader for the party now. Not to mention the referendum issue.
We have to agree to disagree. There is no one close in the party to replace him
It really is like wenger/Mourinho/fergie/curbs/clough leaving their club
I know you, and most people on here, aren't Ukip supporters and want them to do badly, so obv hope stands down... And as always on here, people say what they want to happen, then go round the houses justifying it so it sounds logical and unbiased. But the truth is that Farage is Ukips biggest asset
There was no-one in the Tory Party like Hague, but he became a far bigger asset to them when he stepped down and was rehabilitated. I don't get your point that Farage will somehow vanish into a puff of smoke if he's not leader. He will clearly remain a huge figurehead.
I loved Moonbats article the other day saying labour should morph into some kind of Latin American activist grass-roots movement.
Well, I think it's more an argument for the Left in general and I think he's right. It's the only way out of the dead-end that Labour are currently in that sees the State doing things as a good thing of itself, and too often as the only option.
Left-wing politics has always been about doing things collectively. Obviously the State is one way of doing that, but it's not the only way, and a lot of people are rightly distrustful of it.
Cameron's Big Society was a big missed opportunity for the Left. They could have grabbed hold of that idea and made it their own.
shadsy has taken a radically different view of the most seats market from other bookies, with the result that one can back the Conservatives at 8/11 with Ladbrokes and Labour at 2/1 elsewhere.
Given the size of the swing that Labour require to get most seats, which has been achieved in roughly 1 in 5 elections since the Second World War, shadsy seems to be expecting the Conservatives to screw up royally.
Right now I'd prefer to back the 8/11 rather than the 2/1. But five years is a long time to wait to collect.
Isn't that more Shadsy expecting the SNP to screw up royally and the Tories a little bit?
I'd have thought it is Shadsy saying that in a multiparty FPTP system, larger swings in numbers of seats are more easily attainable than in a two party system
This is the real issue for BOOers, not Kippers per se
Former Ukip deputy leader David Campbell-Bannerman MEP, who left the party to join the Conservatives in 2011, has written a piece for the Telegraph saying Nigel Farage should resign as he risks being the "jester of the Eurosceptic movement".
Worth pointing out that he had already left the Tories to join UKIP. Might be worth a punt on how long he will stay with the Tories this time given his supposed commitment to leaving the EU.
My prediction is they will lose Kassam and the other bod.
Once all the pawns have been taken the king is very exposed.
Ooh SeanT has a rival!
Look, I agree with you that Farage has helped get to 4 million supporters. But it looks like he's not the right leader for the party now. Not to mention the referendum issue.
We have to agree to disagree. There is no one close in the party to replace him
It really is like wenger/Mourinho/fergie/curbs/clough leaving their club
I know you, and most people on here, aren't Ukip supporters and want them to do badly, so obv hope stands down... And as always on here, people say what they want to happen, then go round the houses justifying it so it sounds logical and unbiased. But the truth is that Farage is Ukips biggest asset
This is to argue that Blair should still be leading Labour because he was an asset in the past.
One thing that is for sure is that any worries Cameron might have had about eurosceptics moving on to UKIP and undermining his majority must be mightily diminished. Yet another reason why McBride is recommending a truly hopeless bet!
So an MEP suggests his party leader's campaign wasn't run as well as it could have been and the bloke responsible for the campaign gets the push, even those determined to spend their lives discrediting Ukip have to admit this really isn't a big deal.
If only the country was run as well as Ukip.
See what I mean? If there was another election tomorrow Ukip would get more votes than last week, this is a total non-story, get over yourself
What possible reason do you have to believe that? They'd almost certainly have less.
I know you, and most people on here, aren't Ukip supporters and want them to do badly, so obv hope stands down... And as always on here, people say what they want to happen, then go round the houses justifying it so it sounds logical and unbiased. But the truth is that Farage is Ukips biggest asset
He's an asset in the country, I agree - but you have to be able to manage a party too. And I don't mind if UKIP does well, to be honest - Labour in particular deserve the kick up the arse that they are getting for neglecting their original supporters.
Mostly I'm interested in the internal politics of it all.
I am no insider but get the feeling that Kassam and Richardson are the ones that are resented and there's no problem between Farage and O'Flynn, Evans, Aker or Woolfe... Anyway they've gone now so hopefully that's sorted
Carswell seems to be his own man and is obv a bit of a maverick/ star striker that gets a bit more leeway than others ... My only concern w him is that he might really believe 4m people are fixated on gladstonian liberalism etc rather than their pay packet and hometown unless Farage is around to keep his feet on the ground ... That way lies 4%
Stunning , bare faced hypocrisy from Yevette Cooper who States on the news that Labour the reason they lost was that they did not get their message across as a result of the nasty Tories frightening people about the SNP. That was a reasonable fear given the statements from the SNP of what they intended to do to Edstone and Labour in general.
Meanwhile Labour and she herself regularly shouted from the rooftops that there were only X number of days/ hours to save the NHS which was direct attempt to frighten the populace as well as the most vulnerable in our society or as they used to call them before "the old the sick and the needy"
Its rather bizarre logic too. "The mean Tories campaigned against us" is why we lost. Seriously? Even if that were a fair comment, what are you going to do about it?
In five years time when Labour says "three days to save the NHS" do you think the Tories won't be campaigning?
It always amazes me when politicians think the reason they lost or that their policies are unpopular is that the messaging failed to get through. Obama still believes that about Obamacare, 5 years on, with 52+% of the public still disapproving despite all the fixes and special deals done to assuage special groups' gripes about the law, and despite Nancy Pelosi's assurance that everyone will love it once they have it.
Comments
If even half of what we have read in the last few days is right then the Labour party under Ed has become so fundamentally dysfunctional that there are years of work to do.
The electoral machine needs to be reworked almost from scratch learning from what the Tories did this time and also what went wrong in their own campaign.
Scotland needs to do something radical and possibly independently as a free standing but associated party. SLAB, a traditional bastion of support, is now on life support and needs a leader that Scots are willing to listen to and have some empathy with.
Labour have got to work out an economic policy that is even vaguely credible and then, even more importantly, accept the implications of that policy in terms of their spending and priorities.
The absurd back of a fag packet headline grabbing nonsense that we saw under Ed absolutely has to stop.
The base in local government, which slipped back yet again last week, needs rebuilt to build a base on which seats can be won.
Above all a sense of purpose is required. Values are all very well but they need to lead to practical results that impact on ordinary peoples' lives. As we have vividly seen this cannot be done in the election campaign. It needs to be done over a period of years.
I have doubts that 5 years is going to be enough to accomplish all this. Labour certainly don't have 3 years to waste.
@logical_song
Calm down, dears
(For there to be 5, we would need 75% of MPs giving a nomination, split evenly, which is unlikely).
So the runners look like
Burnham
Chuka
Cooper
Kendell
and Kendell might not make it either.
BBC Trending
Looks like the Westminster old boys network are succeeding in splitting off more than just Scotland! We're with Nicola or want to be.
I still think Butcher will get it, only to crash to Kinnockesque defeat come 2020.
For Lamb:
Lamb
Brake
(Clegg, presumably)
For Farron:
Farron
Mulholland
Williams
Can't find any statements from Pugh & Carmichael on a cursory Google.
Probably best to let actual LDs comment on this though...
BREAKING Raheem Kassam, Nigel Farage's chief of staff, has left Ukip. the party's leadership has confirmed. More at: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11605216/Ukip-in-crisis-live.html
Enough of a sacrificial lamb ?
Ludicrous mess, had he just sought re-election in the autumn as he'd said in his faux resignation then this wouldn't have been an issue.
Luckyguy1983 said:
I think even Isam would agree that Nigel is going to have to give up the leadership. It would seem to be all over bar the shouting.
Isam said
I shouldn't think so. If he does he would walk an election contest so there is no point.
My prediction is they will lose Kassam and the other bod.
Meanwhile Labour and she herself regularly shouted from the rooftops that there were only X number of days/ hours to save the NHS which was direct attempt to frighten the populace as well as the most vulnerable in our society or as they used to call them before "the old the sick and the needy"
Isn't the job of the UKIP leader to be able to expand support and not just preach to the converted. I don't think non-Kippers are going to continue to be won over by Farage and even the converted are starting to rebel.
@IsabelHardman: So Raheem Kassam has been sacked by Ukip, but tells @SebastianEPayne he hasn’t been. Plot thickening like custard http://t.co/ugWdf6c7SY
Interesting...very interesting....and old Steve Hilton has taken some roles in the UK in the past few days...
Kind of like Crosby, the caricatures of Hilton don't quite fit with the individual, when you actually hear him speak freely and openly.
In five years time when Labour says "three days to save the NHS" do you think the Tories won't be campaigning?
Forget Labour's leadership contest...
This is beyond absurd. I'm increasingly relieved they only have Carswell as an MP right now.
Without Farage I think Ukip would be almost over and done with.. That's why the conservatives were so keen to bt him in Thanet, and why Ukip didn't get any flak post GE until Farages resignation was rejected
You only need look at the posts on here
He must stay and I think he will
If Mourinho said he was quitting Chelsea then stayed id be gutted... I was gutted when he came back in fact as I knew that meant they'd be better
There's not much more to it than that really
Ukip supporters love Farage , he is revered by the party and in all likelihood it was resentment of Kasseem and Richardson that fuelled o Flynns remarks
If you want to stereotype Ukip you could say it was unwillingness to accept newcomers!
@GuidoFawkes: "I no longer work for UKIP, but whether I ever work for Nigel again remains to be seen" says @RaheemKassam to Guido.. http://t.co/Wdr7yRmYbC
Look, I agree with you that Farage has helped get to 4 million supporters. But it looks like he's not the right leader for the party now. Not to mention the referendum issue.
End of month?
End of year?
100% book please I'm not an amateur
On another note - I was surprised at some unlikely GE trends - Bishop Auckland in the NE and several Labour seats in N Wales trending blue. Also in the NW - in Barrow and Workington of all places. Hither and thither when you root around you find these changes occurring slowly and steadily. Not so obvious elsewhere except maybe for Labour in parts of London.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3003003/Ukip-axes-MEP-general-election-candidate-financial-allegations.html
http://www.libdemvoice.org/how-ukip-managed-to-lose-45-of-their-meps-36404.html
The way things are going, will they even have him for much longer?
Nigel shouldn’t go. He’s the most substantial and respected figure in the party and he is absolutely the right person to fight the referendum campaign.
5/4 Yes
4/7 No
http://t.co/MPIAQ2jJOd
.@RaheemKassam are you around tomorrow? I would LOVE to hear how you managed this. I'll buy as you're "short money" #Carswell #Ferrets
Anyway, I know nothing of the UKIP dynamics & can only judge farage from afar, but I think he sees UKIP as *his* and will fight to the very last to stop his baby being taken away. His chance to resign with his dignity intact has past - and that was immensely important to Nigel.
Now his back is against the wall and he'll fight on to the very last.
Says Bloomberg Business..
It really is like wenger/Mourinho/fergie/curbs/clough leaving their club
I know you, and most people on here, aren't Ukip supporters and want them to do badly, so obv hope stands down... And as always on here, people say what they want to happen, then go round the houses justifying it so it sounds logical and unbiased. But the truth is that Farage is Ukips biggest asset
Mostly I'm interested in the internal politics of it all.
It probably is 50/50.
It depends on whether he resigned or unresigned on the day before.
Left-wing politics has always been about doing things collectively. Obviously the State is one way of doing that, but it's not the only way, and a lot of people are rightly distrustful of it.
Cameron's Big Society was a big missed opportunity for the Left. They could have grabbed hold of that idea and made it their own.
Christopher Hope @christopherhope 1m1 minute ago Harpenden, England
NEW Ukip wars: Major donor Arron Banks describes party's single MP Douglas Carswell as "duplicitous".
My interview: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11605846/Ukip-in-open-civil-war-as-major-donor-Arron-Banks-describes-its-single-MP-Douglas-Carswell-as-duplicitous.html …
But he is right about Farage.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2529783/Thomas-Tank-Engine-blamed-lack-female-train-drivers-engines-male-says-Labour-minister.html
Carswell seems to be his own man and is obv a bit of a maverick/ star striker that gets a bit more leeway than others ... My only concern w him is that he might really believe 4m people are fixated on gladstonian liberalism etc rather than their pay packet and hometown unless Farage is around to keep his feet on the ground ... That way lies 4%