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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tonight’s Scottish debate was superb – the question now is

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  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @GIN1138

    'Actually quite the opposite. In today's polls there's a swing to Labour.'

    Did you expect anything else with so many people on holiday?

    With the SNP love-in Labour will need at least 40 gains in England & Wales just to stand still.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    he Tory strategy hasn't made much sense to me for months, but there we go...

    The only thing I can think is that the tories believe that politics is far less tribal than it used to be. The final stretch is all. That's how it was with the Scottish referendum. Dave's intervention was very late, but arguably decisive.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    So, Rand Paul has announced his candidacy for POTUS, and has an online store...

    Among other things you can buy a "Don't Drone me, Bro" t-shirt, car bumper stickers and magnets, and - my favorite, showing how brave a conviction politician he is - a pair of Rand Paul flip flops.

    https://store.randpaul.com/
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Speedy said:

    Scott_P said:

    @SunPolitics: YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by two: CON 33%, LAB 35%, LD 8%, UKIP 14%, GRN 5%

    I'll wait until after the Blair Witch Project goes away.
    By the way that 35-33 is the same result as 2005.
    Not so ! The GB result in 2005 was Lab 36 Con 33.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Scott_P said:

    currystar said:

    If the non Dom thing is such a great idea why has no one ended it before?

    Tony Blair promised it in 97

    Number went up after that
    Labour are saying that 'temporary'residents will not be subject to it. They will hold a 'consultation' on what 'temporary' means at a later date if people are stupid enough to vote for them.
    The amount non doms pay anyway has gone up under Osborne.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited April 2015


    The problem for the Tories is, even if they rationally unravel this they will sound on the side of the non-doms, just like when they went to EU court over bankers bonuses cap being imposed by EU or that price freeze on energy prices are not as simple as wand waving.

    Non Doms aren't even the problem. Ex-Pats are the problem. earning money in Dubai at 0% Tax and having your children educated in the UK while your family get's NHS cover and if they are smart, benefits as a single mother of children with a foreign fled parent.

    That's the problem. Got a British passport? Pay UK Tax (net whatever foreign tax you pay with no refund).
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    edited April 2015

    kjohnw said:


    Labour are dominating the news agenda with the help of their chums at bbc and sky but where are the Tory attack dogs. The Tory response is noticeable by its silence. What game are they playing. Where are the heavy hitters?

    I don't think the Tories have anybody these days. We have 5 years of near "radio silence". I have noted this before, where as Labour will send out the likes of John Mann to scream evil Tories baby eating scum day in day out, the Tories basically put up a minister to announce something, they do the media for the day and off their trot.

    Instead, we are either left with the likes of Louise "Mrs self-importance live from NYC" Mensch or some Tory who plays way too nicely and gives people the benefit of the doubt. Back in Thatcher days, Tories used to have people that didn't take any crap from anybody.
    They either have something up their sleeve that we don't yet know about or are just complacent or merely not hungry for victory. Maybe they want to lose this one cause they think Miliband winning will kill Labour for at least a generation and a second GE would not be too far off anyway . maybe they are just keeping their powder dry for the final three weeks of campaigning and letting Labour blow their cannons off early. The gamble is labour take the momentum and the undecided make their minds up now or later.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    KentRising Presently most English nationalism is encapsulated by UKIP that is why
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Dair Most over 65s will survive well into their eighties now, a couple of extra teenagers getting registered will not take Yes over the line, indeed 18-24s were narrowly No
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Scott_P said:

    @SunPolitics: YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by two: CON 33%, LAB 35%, LD 8%, UKIP 14%, GRN 5%

    Fux sake.
    Like I said,labour have had a good 3/4 days and with the front of the guardian story,more good news.
    We can make all the excuses we want: if the Tories are to stay in power, they should be starting to post consistent leads by now.

    There is less than THIRTY days to go. Labour leads shouldn't even be featuring.
    Chill.

    Wait until post easter bank holiday. Polls from next Monday.
    Wish we still had the like button.

    Thanks. I'm frustrated that the Conservative party leader has totally failed to move the country towards Conservative values over the last 5 years.

    In no way do I sense David Cameron has given any answer to the perennial problem that Labour are seen as the party of fairness (even though what I think of Labour and what they've done to this country probably can't be written here) and the Tories as repellent.

    He just hasn't gone out there and grappled with that argument. He hasn't taken to the airwaves. Debated, argued and pushed for the alternative point of view. Fought for what he believes in.

    In fact, he's gone along with it to an extent by denigrating his own activist base and membership. He's been more interested in apologising for Conservative beliefs and policies, either directly or indirectly through triangulation, than defending them.

    It's hardly surprisingly the electorate have concluded he's right. In the end, he just won't get enough votes. The very fact we're arguing about a smidgen of a percentage point here and there, just to eek out another four to five extra seats, to try and get that photo-finish just before Labour do, proves that.
    You seem muddled. In your first para you bemoan lack of tory values and suggest labour are party of fairness. But as Theresa May pointed out tory values don't equate to fairness they equate to nastiness. So Cameron has been right about his activist base.

    anyway off to bed. all those people getting over excited about todays polls should remember the yougov after debate No.1. Wait til after the easter hols. unpopular message to repeat but it needs to be said.
    A shame you are off to bed as you cannot read me pull you up abut your lie abut May and 'nastyness'. Its amazing that you think you can get away with telling barefaced lies. The return of Tony Blair must have gone to your head.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited April 2015
    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:


    Labour are dominating the news agenda with the help of their chums at bbc and sky but where are the Tory attack dogs. The Tory response is noticeable by its silence. What game are they playing. Where are the heavy hitters?

    I don't think the Tories have anybody these days. We have 5 years of near "radio silence". I have noted this before, where as Labour will send out the likes of John Mann to scream evil Tories baby eating scum day in day out, the Tories basically put up a minister to announce something, they do the media for the day and off their trot.

    Instead, we are either left with the likes of Louise "Mrs self-importance live from NYC" Mensch or some Tory who plays way too nicely and gives people the benefit of the doubt. Back in Thatcher days, Tories used to have people that didn't take any crap from anybody.
    They either have something up their sleeve that we don't yet know about or are just complacent or merely not hungry for victory. Maybe they want to lose this one cause they think Miliband winning will kill Labour for at least a generation and a second GE would not be too far off anyway . maybe they are just keeping their powder dry for the final three weeks of campaigning and letting Labour blow their cannons off early. The gamble is labour take the momentum and the undecided make their minds up now or later.
    I think the Tories in general just seem to be continuing their strategy of in government, make the announcements they think are right, bit of media spin for a day or two and that is about it. When they get attacked, they haven't really responded, and if something unravels massively, ditch and move on.

    Labour in power would always try to control the narrative, close down criticism, etc. The Tories just seem to have been content to let whatever will be, be.

    In first 2-3 years of the Coalition, I don't necessarily think that was a bad idea. Most people were sick of politicians after expenses scandal. Instead get on with the job, don't waste energy arguing over stuff nobody will remember. But ultimately you have to win an election, and you don't do that by saying nothing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    TimB Considering Rand's supporters are the most fanatical probably a lot of business there

    Also, a chart on the labor force participation rate we were discussing a week or 2 ago, much of the explanation is in over 55s and over 65s increasing and more young people going to college, both groups outside the labor force
    http://qz.com/286213/the-chart-obama-haters-love-most-and-the-truth-behind-it/
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    HYUFD said:

    Dair Most over 65s will survive well into their eighties now, a couple of extra teenagers getting registered will not take Yes over the line, indeed 18-24s were narrowly No

    There's different polling opinions and interpretations of the youth age group. I'm confident. Are you?

    Guess you welcome a 2018 Referendum given you're so certain. That's gotta kill it, right?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited April 2015
    Dair Well as Quebec proves a second No vote, even by l%, would settle the issue, but no I do not think there will be another for 10-15 years
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    GIN1138 said:

    kjohnw said:


    Labour are dominating the news agenda with the help of their chums at bbc and sky but where are the Tory attack dogs. The Tory response is noticeable by its silence. What game are they playing. Where are the heavy hitters?

    Lintons general strategy seems to be for the Tories to say and do as little as possible and let everyone else dominate the agenda....

    The Tory strategy hasn't made much sense to me for months, but there we go...
    Ed being on the Telly four times will NOT help the Conservative cause.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Quebec waited far far too long.

    5 years is a good gap. And in Scotland, it's a likely gap. An extra 9.5% will be fine.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dair Most over 65s will survive well into their eighties now, a couple of extra teenagers getting registered will not take Yes over the line, indeed 18-24s were narrowly No

    There's different polling opinions and interpretations of the youth age group. I'm confident. Are you?

    Guess you welcome a 2018 Referendum given you're so certain. That's gotta kill it, right?
    I reckon it'd be a narrow No win again - the reason SLAB are stuffed is the immutable 16% the Conservatives will get in Scotland...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    There was definitely some Conservative momentum building in the first week. We need to see if Monday's polling was just a blip or if Farage appearing on the Telly has reminded the 11-14%ile of Kipper support why they're voting UKIP.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Dair Unless the polls show Yes clearly ahead there will be no referendum for the foreseeable future

    Pulpstar But in Labour v SNP constituencies some of those Tories might start tactically voting Labour where the Tory candidate has no chance
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    +++BETTING QUESTION+++

    Oddschecker doesn't have an archive for Sporting Index. Does anybody know anywhere that holds a record of Sporting Index seat estimates for Con/Lab/LD over time?
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    FPT. Dair 'Comical audience selection. STV overcompensating for criticism at Indyref?'

    Twitter
    Ruth Davidson MSP @RuthDavidsonMSP · 11h 11 hours ago
    @STVNews confirm audience for tonight's debate. 60×SNP, 60×Lab, 30×Con, 15×LD & 85×undecided. So if SNP/Lab sound loudest, you know why!

  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    As expected a shitload more Labour than should have been there.

    No wonder it was filled with Labour hacks. Plus the "undecided" which was clearly Labourite by the "I was undecided but now Im 100% Labour" girl.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited April 2015
    What doesn't seem to exist is this "exit poll" giving SNP 55%. Can't find this anywhere. I've seen it called an exit poll which makes sense but not seen any evidence for it.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2015
    Dair said:


    The problem for the Tories is, even if they rationally unravel this they will sound on the side of the non-doms, just like when they went to EU court over bankers bonuses cap being imposed by EU or that price freeze on energy prices are not as simple as wand waving.

    Non Doms aren't even the problem. Ex-Pats are the problem. earning money in Dubai at 0% Tax and having your children educated in the UK while your family get's NHS cover and if they are smart, benefits as a single mother of children with a foreign fled parent.

    That's the problem. Got a British passport? Pay UK Tax (net whatever foreign tax you pay with no refund).
    No one has a UK passport any more, we all have EU passports. I suspect that wheeze wouldn't get very far with EU law, and if it did its trivial to change citizenship to another EU country these days, and continue as before because of the free movement of labour. Become a French/Irish/German etc citizen, work in Dubai, bank in Guernsey or Luxembourg, family in the UK, completely legal under EU law, job done.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    The guy who didn't understand how income tax works made me want to bash my head against the wall
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Dair said:


    The problem for the Tories is, even if they rationally unravel this they will sound on the side of the non-doms, just like when they went to EU court over bankers bonuses cap being imposed by EU or that price freeze on energy prices are not as simple as wand waving.

    Non Doms aren't even the problem. Ex-Pats are the problem. earning money in Dubai at 0% Tax and having your children educated in the UK while your family get's NHS cover and if they are smart, benefits as a single mother of children with a foreign fled parent.

    That's the problem. Got a British passport? Pay UK Tax (net whatever foreign tax you pay with no refund).
    The vast majority of Brits working in the Middle East are provided with very good health and education by their employers. No need for the sub-standard state-provided services back in the UK thanks very much.
  • Cyclefree said:

    http://news.sky.com/story/1460548/labour-would-abolish-non-dom-tax-status "a spokesman for Ed. Milliband said 'UK citizens should pay tax on all gains, anywhere in the world'". Which if correct means it wouldn't apply to the likes of Lakshmi Mittal as he is not a British citizen, and presumably wouldn't bother to become one either.

    Hold on...isn't that the issue with most non-doms that live here? The opposite way around i.e they don't live here, could they just not give up their British Citizenship?

    And that isn't what the headlines infers.
    Making UK citizens pay tax on all their worldwide earnings is very similar to the rule for US citizens. But remember that there are double taxation treaties in place so to the extent that tax has already been paid in, say , Italy, the amount of additional tax due in the UK may be zero or negligible.

    Tax residency and tax domicile are complicated concepts. I don't know how easy it would be to change these but broadly I agree that people living In the UK should pay tax here. But I think that the number of non-doms living here is not so large that taxing them - on what precisely? - will raise huge amounts. It's all about the mood music and on that may be successful.

    Anyone thinking that ordinary people won't be taxed, taxed and taxed some more if Labour form the government needs their head examined. Labour are being utterly dishonest in pretending that all their spending will be paid for by taxes on bankers, non-doms and mansions.

    It will be Mr and Mrs Average, their savings, pension and no 32 Acacia Avenue who will pay, as they always do.

    Quite right. Higher VAT for Mr and Mrs Average for example.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited April 2015
    Indigo said:

    Dair said:


    The problem for the Tories is, even if they rationally unravel this they will sound on the side of the non-doms, just like when they went to EU court over bankers bonuses cap being imposed by EU or that price freeze on energy prices are not as simple as wand waving.

    Non Doms aren't even the problem. Ex-Pats are the problem. earning money in Dubai at 0% Tax and having your children educated in the UK while your family get's NHS cover and if they are smart, benefits as a single mother of children with a foreign fled parent.

    That's the problem. Got a British passport? Pay UK Tax (net whatever foreign tax you pay with no refund).
    No one has a UK passport any more, we all have EU passports. I suspect that wheeze wouldn't get very far with EU law, and if it did its trivial to change citizenship to another EU country these days, and continue as before because of the free movement of labour. Become a French/Irish/German etc citizen, work in Dubai, bank in Guernsey or Luxembourg, family in the UK, completely legal under EU law, job done.
    I read a fascinating article 2-3 weeks ago (I can't remember what publication / site, I want to say Bloomberg), but it was talking about the trend in small countries selling citizenship to the mega rich. They were talking about places like Antigua will sell you a passport for $250k, and you never have to even set foot in some of these countries.

    Not only are the mega wealthy not tied to living in one specific countries these days, they aren't even tied to citizenship. The whole world has to adjust their systems to the fact the more and more people don't need to be located in one place any more.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2015

    Indigo said:

    Dair said:


    The problem for the Tories is, even if they rationally unravel this they will sound on the side of the non-doms, just like when they went to EU court over bankers bonuses cap being imposed by EU or that price freeze on energy prices are not as simple as wand waving.

    Non Doms aren't even the problem. Ex-Pats are the problem. earning money in Dubai at 0% Tax and having your children educated in the UK while your family get's NHS cover and if they are smart, benefits as a single mother of children with a foreign fled parent.

    That's the problem. Got a British passport? Pay UK Tax (net whatever foreign tax you pay with no refund).
    No one has a UK passport any more, we all have EU passports. I suspect that wheeze wouldn't get very far with EU law, and if it did its trivial to change citizenship to another EU country these days, and continue as before because of the free movement of labour. Become a French/Irish/German etc citizen, work in Dubai, bank in Guernsey or Luxembourg, family in the UK, completely legal under EU law, job done.
    I read a fascinating article 2-3 weeks ago (I can't remember what publication, I want to say Bloomberg magazine), but it was talking about the trend in small countries selling citizenship to the mega rich. They were talking about places like Antigua will sell you a passport for $250k, and you never have to even set foot in some of these countries.

    Not only are the mega wealthy not tied to living in one specific countries these days, they aren't even tied to citizenship. The whole world has to adjust their systems to the fact the more and more people don't need to be located in one place any more.
    Indeed. You can get an EU passport for less than that, one of the things that makes controlling immigration even from outside the EU pointless while we remain in the EU

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/investigations/10699637/EU-citizenship-for-sale-to-non-Europeans-in-Bulgaria-for-as-little-as-150000.html

    Wouldn't take very many years of taxation on worldwide income for a wealthy person to consider a Bulgarian passport, and if they were too cheap to pay for proper healthcare and education for their family they could still have them in the UK using the NHS and schools.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Sandpit said:

    Dair said:


    The problem for the Tories is, even if they rationally unravel this they will sound on the side of the non-doms, just like when they went to EU court over bankers bonuses cap being imposed by EU or that price freeze on energy prices are not as simple as wand waving.

    Non Doms aren't even the problem. Ex-Pats are the problem. earning money in Dubai at 0% Tax and having your children educated in the UK while your family get's NHS cover and if they are smart, benefits as a single mother of children with a foreign fled parent.

    That's the problem. Got a British passport? Pay UK Tax (net whatever foreign tax you pay with no refund).
    The vast majority of Brits working in the Middle East are provided with very good health and education by their employers. No need for the sub-standard state-provided services back in the UK thanks very much.
    Ah so paying into the pot for health and education when you spend money on private health and education should only apply to residents?

    Are these Ex-Pats also paying for private street lighting, private road maintenance, private social services, private council services as well?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited April 2015

    Indigo said:

    Dair said:


    The problem for the Tories is, even if they rationally unravel this they will sound on the side of the non-doms, just like when they went to EU court over bankers bonuses cap being imposed by EU or that price freeze on energy prices are not as simple as wand waving.

    Non Doms aren't even the problem. Ex-Pats are the problem. earning money in Dubai at 0% Tax and having your children educated in the UK while your family get's NHS cover and if they are smart, benefits as a single mother of children with a foreign fled parent.

    That's the problem. Got a British passport? Pay UK Tax (net whatever foreign tax you pay with no refund).
    No one has a UK passport any more, we all have EU passports. I suspect that wheeze wouldn't get very far with EU law, and if it did its trivial to change citizenship to another EU country these days, and continue as before because of the free movement of labour. Become a French/Irish/German etc citizen, work in Dubai, bank in Guernsey or Luxembourg, family in the UK, completely legal under EU law, job done.
    I read a fascinating article 2-3 weeks ago (I can't remember what publication / site, I want to say Bloomberg), but it was talking about the trend in small countries selling citizenship to the mega rich. They were talking about places like Antigua will sell you a passport for $250k, and you never have to even set foot in some of these countries.

    Not only are the mega wealthy not tied to living in one specific countries these days, they aren't even tied to citizenship. The whole world has to adjust their systems to the fact the more and more people don't need to be located in one place any more.
    I recall that story, it was Grenada, IIRC. Sorted out their economy.

    But doesn't a UK passport work out much less than that?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2015
    Dair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dair said:


    The problem for the Tories is, even if they rationally unravel this they will sound on the side of the non-doms, just like when they went to EU court over bankers bonuses cap being imposed by EU or that price freeze on energy prices are not as simple as wand waving.

    Non Doms aren't even the problem. Ex-Pats are the problem. earning money in Dubai at 0% Tax and having your children educated in the UK while your family get's NHS cover and if they are smart, benefits as a single mother of children with a foreign fled parent.

    That's the problem. Got a British passport? Pay UK Tax (net whatever foreign tax you pay with no refund).
    The vast majority of Brits working in the Middle East are provided with very good health and education by their employers. No need for the sub-standard state-provided services back in the UK thanks very much.
    Ah so paying into the pot for health and education when you spend money on private health and education should only apply to residents?

    Are these Ex-Pats also paying for private street lighting, private road maintenance, private social services, private council services as well?
    One assumes this wife and children are eating something, living somewhere, in other words spending this supposed rich persons money in the UK, so taxes are being paid, just not as much as you might like, whether they cover the families share of the cost of running the nation, who can say. But your Marxist slip is showing, its not about fair payment its about the undeserving rich. Its unrealistic in any case, you might like it, I might not disagree with it entirely, but it isn't going to happen in today's world with supranational agreements like the EU getting in the way, so we might was well move on to more productive areas.

    If you are interested in fairness what about the ex-pat who has his whole family abroad with him, which is the majority, why should they contribute a cent to the UK economy when they gain no benefit what so ever from it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited April 2015
    The one I read was definitely Antigua, but there are a number of countries doing it, and I think more will do it e.g Panama, has already got a nice business going on the tax avoidance / evasion racket (I noted the HSBC boss had his money paid through there, not saying he was doing either), and always keen to bolster revenues.

    This isn't the article I read but,

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27674135

    I completely forgot about Malta. That was another very attractive option for a while that people took advantage of.

    -----------

    Panama banking has a "lovely" system going. You can open business accounts via a lawyer and only the lawyer needs to be on the paperwork, absolutely no mention of the actual owners anywhere. This was their more "transparent" system than their previous system of numbered accounts only, but all that has happened their are lawyers who all they do all day is open bank accounts for unnamed individuals.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Panama banking has a "lovely" system going. You can open business accounts via a lawyer and only the lawyer needs to be on the paperwork, absolutely no mention of the actual owners anywhere. This was their more "transparent" system than their previous system of numbered accounts only, but all that has happened their are lawyers who all they do all day is open bank accounts for unnamed individuals.

    I believe they are the only country in the world that still allows corporations to be formed by issuing "bearer certificates" with no official record of who the shareholders are, since the shareholding changes just by handing the certificate to someone else. Must make for some interesting taxation opportunities.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    edited April 2015
    Indigo said:

    Dair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dair said:


    The problem for the Tories is, even if they rationally unravel this they will sound on the side of the non-doms, just like when they went to EU court over bankers bonuses cap being imposed by EU or that price freeze on energy prices are not as simple as wand waving.

    Non Doms aren't even the problem. Ex-Pats are the problem. earning money in Dubai at 0% Tax and having your children educated in the UK while your family get's NHS cover and if they are smart, benefits as a single mother of children with a foreign fled parent.

    That's the problem. Got a British passport? Pay UK Tax (net whatever foreign tax you pay with no refund).
    The vast majority of Brits working in the Middle East are provided with very good health and education by their employers. No need for the sub-standard state-provided services back in the UK thanks very much.
    Ah so paying into the pot for health and education when you spend money on private health and education should only apply to residents?

    Are these Ex-Pats also paying for private street lighting, private road maintenance, private social services, private council services as well?
    One assumes this wife and children are eating something, living somewhere, in other words spending this supposed rich persons money in the UK, so taxes are being paid, just not as much as you might like, whether they cover the families share of the cost of running the nation, who can say. But your Marxist slip is showing, its not about fair payment its about the undeserving rich. Its unrealistic in any case, you might like it, I might not disagree with it entirely, but it isn't going to happen in today's world with supranational agreements like the EU getting in the way, so we might was well move on to more productive areas.

    If you are interested in fairness what about the ex-pat who has his whole family abroad with him, which is the majority, why should they contribute a cent to the UK economy when they gain no benefit what so ever from it.
    Of course, this is more about bashing the 'rich' and successful than raising any money for the Exchequer. One only needs to look at the arguments around the 50% income tax rate to see the agenda, but if the famous top 1% all decide to disappear then where does the money come from for all this socialism?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2015
    Sandpit said:

    Indigo said:

    One assumes this wife and children are eating something, living somewhere, in other words spending this supposed rich persons money in the UK, so taxes are being paid, just not as much as you might like, whether they cover the families share of the cost of running the nation, who can say. But your Marxist slip is showing, its not about fair payment its about the undeserving rich. Its unrealistic in any case, you might like it, I might not disagree with it entirely, but it isn't going to happen in today's world with supranational agreements like the EU getting in the way, so we might was well move on to more productive areas.

    If you are interested in fairness what about the ex-pat who has his whole family abroad with him, which is the majority, why should they contribute a cent to the UK economy when they gain no benefit what so ever from it.

    Of course, this is more about bashing the 'rich' and successful than raising any money for the Exchequer. One only needs to look at the arguments around the 50% income tax rate to see the agenda, the questions is if the famous top 1% all decide to disappear, then where does the money come from for all this socialism?
    Who is John Galt ?

    Lefties don't believe the rich will leave. Despite them leaving in droves in the 70's when Healey decided to "soak the rich" in a world far less mobile, and in which the rich had far fewer ways to move their cash around, and it which is was vastly less easy to make money from a remote location, and critically, in a world where national loyalties were far more keenly felt.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Indigo said:

    Sandpit said:

    Indigo said:

    Dair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dair said:


    The problem for the Tories is, even if they rationally unravel this they will sound on the side of the non-doms, just like when they went to EU court over bankers bonuses cap being imposed by EU or that price freeze on energy prices are not as simple as wand waving.

    Non Doms aren't even the problem. Ex-Pats are the problem. earning money in Dubai at 0% Tax and having your children educated in the UK while your family get's NHS cover and if they are smart, benefits as a single mother of children with a foreign fled parent.

    That's the problem. Got a British passport? Pay UK Tax (net whatever foreign tax you pay with no refund).
    The vast majority of Brits working in the Middle East are provided with very good health and education by their employers. No need for the sub-standard state-provided services back in the UK thanks very much.
    Ah so paying into the pot for health and education when you spend money on private health and education should only apply to residents?

    Are these Ex-Pats also paying for private street lighting, private road maintenance, private social services, private council services as well?
    One assumes this wife and children are eating something, living somewhere, in other words spending this supposed rich persons money in the UK, so taxes are being paid, just not as much as you might like, whether they cover the families share of the cost of running the nation, who can say. But your Marxist slip is showing, its not about fair payment its about the undeserving rich. Its unrealistic in any case, you might like it, I might not disagree with it entirely, but it isn't going to happen in today's world with supranational agreements like the EU getting in the way, so we might was well move on to more productive areas.

    If you are interested in fairness what about the ex-pat who has his whole family abroad with him, which is the majority, why should they contribute a cent to the UK economy when they gain no benefit what so ever from it.
    Of course, this is more about bashing the 'rich' and successful than raising any money for the Exchequer. One only needs to look at the arguments around the 50% income tax rate to see the agenda, the questions is if the famous top 1% all decide to disappear, then where does the money come from for all this socialism?
    Who is John Galt ?
    We are!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited April 2015
    Indigo said:

    Panama banking has a "lovely" system going. You can open business accounts via a lawyer and only the lawyer needs to be on the paperwork, absolutely no mention of the actual owners anywhere. This was their more "transparent" system than their previous system of numbered accounts only, but all that has happened their are lawyers who all they do all day is open bank accounts for unnamed individuals.

    I believe they are the only country in the world that still allows corporations to be formed by issuing "bearer certificates" with no official record of who the shareholders are, since the shareholding changes just by handing the certificate to someone else. Must make for some interesting taxation opportunities.

    To be technically correct about how the anonymous banking works, it is exactly via this mechanism. An anonymous corporation is formed via a lawyer and then the lawyers act as the "secretary" for said corporation and then open the bank accounts. What the corporation is for and where the money flows it is virtually impossible to work out, unless the lawyer leaks the information.

    Having been there a number of times, the answer is yes...and all the major banks are there in force. Funny that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited April 2015
    Indigo said:

    Sandpit said:

    Indigo said:

    One assumes this wife and children are eating something, living somewhere, in other words spending this supposed rich persons money in the UK, so taxes are being paid, just not as much as you might like, whether they cover the families share of the cost of running the nation, who can say. But your Marxist slip is showing, its not about fair payment its about the undeserving rich. Its unrealistic in any case, you might like it, I might not disagree with it entirely, but it isn't going to happen in today's world with supranational agreements like the EU getting in the way, so we might was well move on to more productive areas.

    If you are interested in fairness what about the ex-pat who has his whole family abroad with him, which is the majority, why should they contribute a cent to the UK economy when they gain no benefit what so ever from it.

    Of course, this is more about bashing the 'rich' and successful than raising any money for the Exchequer. One only needs to look at the arguments around the 50% income tax rate to see the agenda, the questions is if the famous top 1% all decide to disappear, then where does the money come from for all this socialism?
    Who is John Galt ?

    Lefties don't believe the rich will leave. Despite them leaving in droves in the 70's when Healey decided to "soak the rich" in a world far less mobile, and in which the rich had far fewer ways to move their cash around, and it which is was vastly less easy to make money from a remote location, and critically, in a world where national loyalties were far more keenly felt.
    When you compare the 70's to now, it is the chalk and cheese. Two words, The Internet....

    I have a number of online business interests and I don't need to be located in any particular country for them to function.

    There was a [poor] documentary on last night about young motivated British "kids" who have or want to make it big in tech and they are already massive pull to head to San Fran or NY. The government have done ok with the "silicon roundabout", but much more needs doing, and the last thing is a soak the rich approach that will have talented, motivated and most importantly mobile young people heading for the exit door.
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