Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Predict Thursday’s South Yorkshire PCC by-election and win

12346

Comments

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    SeanT said:

    "The Tower of London poppies are fake, trite and inward-looking – a Ukip-style memorial"

    http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/oct/28/tower-of-london-poppies-ukip-remembrance-day

    That article sums up everything that is wrong with the Left, the Guardian, journalism, art criticism, political correctness, the impact of the internet, political writing, and critic Jonathan Jones, in a neat 800 words.
    .
    Quite some achievement then, in a warped way.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    What's been the biggest Tory lead this year? I'm pretty sure I remember some 2%s, has there been a 3%?
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    EASY PEASY

    Thank me later Dave
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    Danny565 said:

    What's been the biggest Tory lead this year? I'm pretty sure I remember some 2%s, has there been a 3%?

    2% is the highest this year.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    SeanT said:

    "The Tower of London poppies are fake, trite and inward-looking – a Ukip-style memorial"

    http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/oct/28/tower-of-london-poppies-ukip-remembrance-day

    That article sums up everything that is wrong with the Left, the Guardian, journalism, art criticism, political correctness, the impact of the internet, political writing, and critic Jonathan Jones, in a neat 800 words.

    A specious piece of stupid, wrong headed, wearyingly predictable yet offensive drivel written solely, and badly, for clicks.
    Jonathan Jones doesn't seem to mind the understated approach of Rachel Whiteread:

    http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2012/dec/14/rachel-whiteread-greatest-british-artist

    But her Holocaust memorial in Vienna doesn't really fit with his thesis that we need to have our noses rubbed in the awfulness of horror:

    http://omstreifer.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/p1110747.jpg

    It's hard to escape the conclusion that he's being controversial for its own sake.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    SeanT said:

    "The Tower of
    London poppies are fake, trite and inward-looking – a Ukip-style memorial"

    http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/oct/28/tower-of-london-poppies-ukip-remembrance-day

    That article sums up everything that is wrong with the Left, the Guardian, journalism, art criticism, political correctness, the impact of the internet, political writing, and critic Jonathan Jones, in a neat 800 words.

    A specious piece of stupid, wrong headed, wearyingly predictable yet offensive drivel written solely, and badly, for clicks.

    "written solely, and badly, for clicks."

    At #1 of the most viewed list, it appears to achieved its purpose.

    What the writer doesn't seem to understand is this: We know war is horrible, most adults do; what we choose to remember is the sacrifice and what that means for us today.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. T, well quite (although I think you're harsh on fellatio aficionados).

    I wonder if there's a mechanism to eject a country from NATO.

    Absolutely staggered by Turkey's stance on this.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Evening all and I haven't got a scoobie doo who will win the Yorkshire thing this week. I will go for UKIP by 2.76% following a collapse in the Labour vote.

    Meanwhile in Scotland a 2nd ranking MSP has put what remains of her career on the rack by saying she will stand for SLAB leader. Sarah Boyack is very nice but she was a crap minister in the Dewar/McLeish and McConnell administrations. Interesting that on the Scottish news it was being reported that a group of Westminster Scottish Labour MPs are out to stop Jim Murphy. Henry's tip was mentioned on the news tonight.
  • derektderekt Posts: 1
    With the insight of complete ignorance I predict the winning party of the S Yorks PCC as UKiP by 13.3% recurring.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380

    Henry's tip was mentioned on the news tonight.

    Lol
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. T (derek), welcome to pb.com.
  • Welcome Derek! Another de-lurker.. It would be interesting if you are right. Very interesting!
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    10% Trade discount

    I'm out of practise with my casio...
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:

    Mr. T, was sadly unsurprised by the ISIS/Turkish stuff you tweeted earlier. If they're attacked, we're duty bound to help them, which is madness given their seeming chummyness with ISIS.

    Turkey has done everything possible to ensure the fall of Kobane, up to and including palling up with the satanic rapists of ISIS.

    Despicable country, despicable regime, Erdogan is a c*cksucker.

    If and when we defeat ISIS, we need to get real with Turkey. No f*cking way they are joining the EU, and if they want to keep their NATO membership, they need to learn the art of loyalty.

    NATO is a western alliance. ISIS wants to destroy the west. Turkey needs to choose, and soon, and if they haver any more, we must cut them adrift to live amongst their lovely new friends in the geopolitical toilet of Arabia.
    What possible aspect of Turkey's culture could mean it's the one NATO member that is uniquely sympathetic to the Islamic nutters of ISIS?
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    But,

    In all seriousness, if anyone does want to send me 2Bn Euros I'm sure we could work something out.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    The working week starts on Monday anyway so Me and Ms Brisky well all clear.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited October 2014
    The absurdity of making "extreme porn" an offence:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/man-cleared-porn-possession-tiger-sex-video-revealed-costume-article-1.1989701

    It's ruined an innocent man's life, got him branded a paedophile, and broke up his relationship with his daughter. I hope the scumbags like Harriet Harman are pleased with themselves.

    Meanwhile, the police don't bother to investigate actually paedophiles and 1400 kids get raped.
  • JBriskin, I am sure i can arrange the sum. Zimbabwe Dollars OK?
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited October 2014

    JBriskin, I am sure i can arrange the sum. Zimbabwe Dollars OK?

    Yeah probably,

    You've only got 110 posts though...

  • I didn't realise I needed 2 bn posts? Like all good bankers, you need an audit trail!
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380

    I didn't realise I needed 2 bn posts? Like all good bankers, you need an audit trail!

    I know - Brisky being very harsh today.

    Anyway, here's your audit trail-

    Market Selection Bid
    type Bet ID Bet
    placed Persistence Odds
    req. Stake
    (£) Liability
    (£) Avg. odds
    matched Profit/Loss
    (£)
    Fixtures 28 October / Rangers v St Johnstone / Match Odds Rangers Back 42868126403 28-Oct-14
    19:53 C 2.12 2.00 2.12 2.24
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Interesting local by-election news. There were opportunities for Greens and UKIP to force by-elections in Broxtowe for two seats (town and borough councils) that will anyway come up in May - both fall just short of the 6-month rule.

    The Greens decided to let it go, but UKIP have called one (caused by the sad death of a well-liked Tory councillor) at short notice, probably December 11. It's in Toton, which is an interesting place because: (1) It's the proposed site of the Midlands HS2 terminal, though the HS2 team is now having doubts) (2) It's the location of 500 houses to be built on Green Belt, approved by the Lab/Lib council in compliance with national plans required by the Government Inspector (3) It's the strongest Tory ward in Broxtowe - lots and lots of middle-income commuter homes. The Tories were keen to let it ride to May, but any two voters can force an election, of course. It was probably UKIP's best shot to get on the local electoral map.
  • Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112
    Boles narrowed the gap on Labour in 2005.
    By about 2500 votes.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Socrates said:

    The absurdity of making "extreme porn" an offence:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/man-cleared-porn-possession-tiger-sex-video-revealed-costume-article-1.1989701

    It's ruined an innocent man's life, got him branded a paedophile, and broke up his relationship with his daughter. I hope the scumbags like Harriet Harman are pleased with themselves.

    Meanwhile, the police don't bother to investigate actually paedophiles and 1400 kids get raped.

    I agree that we have to stop politicians simply creating new criminal offences whenever they want to look tough, and get them to actually concentrate on the crimes that cause real harm and simply need existing laws enforced.

    It's also disturbing that this man lost his job, etc, over this. What happened to him could happen to anyone.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
  • Labour 5.55%
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    midwinter said:

    Boles narrowed the gap on Labour in 2005.
    By about 2500 votes.

    His vote share went down...
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Peter_from_Putney

    'after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."

    Clegg votes through & supports NHS reforms,Bedroom tax etc as part of the Coalition and then turns around a few months later and joins the opposition.

    Pure comedy gold.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    The LDs would have probably still blocked it even if Cameron had said he would reform the Bedroom Tax. They have form on this ;)
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    RobD said:

    midwinter said:

    Boles narrowed the gap on Labour in 2005.
    By about 2500 votes.

    His vote share went down...
    But the 3.3% Lab-Con swing mirrored almost exactly the national result.
  • I think Labour will shade it by 1.34%
  • I wonder if anyone can explain why the Home Affairs Select Committee deems this worthy of investigation but the Home Secretary does not:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-29756051

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    Nick Who?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    midwinter said:

    Boles narrowed the gap on Labour in 2005.
    By about 2500 votes.

    midwinter said:

    Boles narrowed the gap on Labour in 2005.
    By about 2500 votes.


    Um. Have you even looked at the result? That was entirely down to the Labour vote shedding to the Lib Dems, and to a lesser extent the Greens. Boles' own vote decreased - decreased, that is, from the Conservative share achieved in 2001. One of the worst general election results in the history of the party.

    Without the decrease that Boles achieved, the Conservatives would have won:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hove_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    That's the point exactly ;)
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    philiph said:

    philiph said:

    David Mitchell isn't left wing either afaik. I remember watching a QI special on the EU that was basically a PR puff piece -every single question/answer was in fact designed to 'explode' a 'myth'. As if Europe had never produced a single poor or ridiculous piece of regulation. David Mitchell was very good at getting the odd 'off message' comment in there amongst the abysmal dross.

    Plato said:

    Michael McIntyre seems to be one and the exception that proves the rule.

    Socrates said:

    I've never heard of Andrew Lawrence before, but his Facebook page is great:

    "Andrew Lawrence
    8 hours ago
    The reason there are no right-leaning comics in this country is because whenever one has the balls to stand-up, they become the target of a witch-hunt. Where there should be balance, there is, terrifyingly, censorship."

    Quite right. But I would like someone inbetween the Boyles/Brookers and Jim Davidson/Bernard Manning.

    A brave, well-informed intelligent centre-right comedian who can satirise to pieces the sanctimonious left-wing comics, deny them the moral high-ground, and tie their tongues in knots through creative wit and riposte.

    I'd go and see them every night.
    David Mitchell is too intelligent to be the lazy'right-on' type . Again I don't think he is politically inclined yet he is obviously politically aware. I think above all he likes things to be logical
    David is exactly what Victoria tells him to be. Who could disobey Ms Coren-Mitchell and survive?
    So that's why she's Coren-Mitchell now! (Sorry saw the beginning of HIGNY last night and wondered why she isn't plain Victoria Coren.)
    Indeed it is.

    Was she ever 'plain' Victoria Coren?
    She looks OK :)
    better than ok, and she loves po ker too... whats not to like
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    what Larks.. the ghastly Chris Huhne loses in the Court of Appeal... no doubt that will cost him even more... Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Where's tonight's YouGov?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    SeanT said:

    antifrank said:

    SeanT said:

    "The Tower of London poppies are fake, trite and inward-looking – a Ukip-style memorial"

    http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/oct/28/tower-of-london-poppies-ukip-remembrance-day

    That article sums up everything that is wrong with the Left, the Guardian, journalism, art criticism, political correctness, the impact of the internet, political writing, and critic Jonathan Jones, in a neat 800 words.

    A specious piece of stupid, wrong headed, wearyingly predictable yet offensive drivel written solely, and badly, for clicks.
    Jonathan Jones doesn't seem to mind the understated approach of Rachel Whiteread:

    http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2012/dec/14/rachel-whiteread-greatest-british-artist

    But her Holocaust memorial in Vienna doesn't really fit with his thesis that we need to have our noses rubbed in the awfulness of horror:

    http://omstreifer.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/p1110747.jpg

    It's hard to escape the conclusion that he's being controversial for its own sake.
    Thing is, he's not even being amusingly or wittily controversial, and his clickbait is devoid of panache or verve or indeed any redeeming features whatsoever. And then there's the awful, laboured, clumsily crowbarred reference to UKIP (UKIP???) to give it some fake political relevance and, yes, generate more clicks.

    A dismal screed of silliness which says far more about the palpable desperation of the writer and the losing-£30m-a-year Guardian than it does about anything else.
    It's a shockingly offensive piece. But we get this stuff round about Remembrance Day every year in left-wing journals, like clockwork.

    Next: why white poppies are better, and how newsreaders encourage poppy fascism.
  • Socrates said:

    The absurdity of making "extreme porn" an offence:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/man-cleared-porn-possession-tiger-sex-video-revealed-costume-article-1.1989701

    It's ruined an innocent man's life, got him branded a paedophile, and broke up his relationship with his daughter. I hope the scumbags like Harriet Harman are pleased with themselves.

    Meanwhile, the police don't bother to investigate actually paedophiles and 1400 kids get raped.

    I agree that we have to stop politicians simply creating new criminal offences whenever they want to look tough, and get them to actually concentrate on the crimes that cause real harm and simply need existing laws enforced.

    It's also disturbing that this man lost his job, etc, over this. What happened to him could happen to anyone.
    This isn't the first time that this egregious law has been found wanting.
    Look at the case of Simon Walsh (a mate of Charles of this parish) threads passim.
    Plod and the CPS are happily wrecking lives all over the place.
    IIRC Nick Palmer voted for it.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    AndyJS said:

    Where's tonight's YouGov?

    They're keeping it under wraps because the 8% Tory lead will be too earth-shattering for mere mortals.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Socrates said:



    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.

    Ah, you mean according to a poll? On that basis, the Government has been unrepresentative since a month after it was formed.

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    Where is the evidence that the British parliamentary system needs an EU referendum at this particular time ?
  • SandraMSandraM Posts: 206
    Labour 2.2
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Socrates said:

    The absurdity of making "extreme porn" an offence:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/man-cleared-porn-possession-tiger-sex-video-revealed-costume-article-1.1989701

    It's ruined an innocent man's life, got him branded a paedophile, and broke up his relationship with his daughter. I hope the scumbags like Harriet Harman are pleased with themselves.

    Meanwhile, the police don't bother to investigate actually paedophiles and 1400 kids get raped.

    I agree that we have to stop politicians simply creating new criminal offences whenever they want to look tough, and get them to actually concentrate on the crimes that cause real harm and simply need existing laws enforced.

    It's also disturbing that this man lost his job, etc, over this. What happened to him could happen to anyone.
    This isn't the first time that this egregious law has been found wanting.
    Look at the case of Simon Walsh (a mate of Charles of this parish) threads passim.
    Plod and the CPS are happily wrecking lives all over the place.
    IIRC Nick Palmer voted for it.
    But think of the children! Adults must be treated like children to save the kiddies.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    JohnO said:

    AndyJS said:

    Where's tonight's YouGov?

    They're keeping it under wraps because the 8% Tory lead will be too earth-shattering for mere mortals.
    We can but dream ;)
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    Where is the evidence that the British parliamentary system needs an EU referendum at this particular time ?
    UKIP winning seats and lib dems coming no where.

  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited October 2014
    And this, purely by coincidence, finds it's way onto the front page of the BBC website

    "Asian girls 'also victims of sex grooming' in Rotherham"

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    He's a mendacious, deceitful and spineless careerist leading a totally self-interested and hypocritical party.

    After all the campaigning he did previously for an in/out EU referendum, and on opposing tuition fees, it's a wonder the Liberal Democrats are retaining any votes at all.
  • AndyJS said:

    Where's tonight's YouGov?

    I greedily devoured it just now.... Mmmmmmm.....

    :)
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Allegra Stratton @BBCAllegra

    I understand Labour going for huge push on immigration... Shadow cabinet and every Labour MP made to hold public mtg on immigration 1/

    More bull and lies.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Nick Sutton ✔ @suttonnick

    Wednesday's Daily Mail:
    Immigration: What a mess!
    #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/tf0OmVIAf2

  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited October 2014
    Until yougov comes, I looked around and found this weird article about Farage in this quite amusing and half crazy conservative american website:

    http://www.mofopolitics.com/2014/10/25/ukips-nigel-farage-wins-over-obnoxious-protesters-with-shared-love-of-alex-jones/
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    Where is the evidence that the British parliamentary system needs an EU referendum at this particular time ?
    UKIP winning seats and lib dems coming no where.

    Number of sets won by the Lib Dems in May council elections compared to number won by UKIP ? roughly 4 times as many .
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    BBC News (UK) ✔ @BBCNews

    Wednesday's Guardian: "Immigration system in chaos" pic.twitter.com/Ur2McdzOx5 #tomorrowspaperstoday #BBCPapers via @suttonnick

  • Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    The absurdity of making "extreme porn" an offence:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/man-cleared-porn-possession-tiger-sex-video-revealed-costume-article-1.1989701

    It's ruined an innocent man's life, got him branded a paedophile, and broke up his relationship with his daughter. I hope the scumbags like Harriet Harman are pleased with themselves.

    Meanwhile, the police don't bother to investigate actually paedophiles and 1400 kids get raped.

    I agree that we have to stop politicians simply creating new criminal offences whenever they want to look tough, and get them to actually concentrate on the crimes that cause real harm and simply need existing laws enforced.

    It's also disturbing that this man lost his job, etc, over this. What happened to him could happen to anyone.
    This isn't the first time that this egregious law has been found wanting.
    Look at the case of Simon Walsh (a mate of Charles of this parish) threads passim.
    Plod and the CPS are happily wrecking lives all over the place.
    IIRC Nick Palmer voted for it.
    But think of the children! Adults must be treated like children to save the kiddies.
    Indeed Sean, the CPS made a complete arse out of themselves in the first tiger porn case.
    Lo and behold they make exactly the same mistake again.
    Not fit for purpose. Shame not politicians have the cojones to hold them to account over it.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    WTF. 25 year old woman from Sparkbrook travels to Syria with one year old baby to fight for IS.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100


    BBC News (UK) ✔ @BBCNews

    Wednesday's Guardian: "Immigration system in chaos" pic.twitter.com/Ur2McdzOx5 #tomorrowspaperstoday #BBCPapers via @suttonnick

    The Guardian about immigration?
    UKIP winning here!
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341


    Allegra Stratton @BBCAllegra

    I understand Labour going for huge push on immigration...

    They want more??
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    He's a mendacious, deceitful and spineless careerist leading a totally self-interested and hypocritical party.

    After all the campaigning he did previously for an in/out EU referendum, and on opposing tuition fees, it's a wonder the Liberal Democrats are retaining any votes at all.
    Oh Dear another embittered pb tory who 4 years on still cannot get his head round the fact that his party did not win the last GE .
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    Where is the evidence that the British parliamentary system needs an EU referendum at this particular time ?
    UKIP winning seats and lib dems coming no where.

    Number of sets won by the Lib Dems in May council elections compared to number won by UKIP ? roughly 4 times as many .
    Who won the tv debates on the EU issue,clegg or farage ? a lot of people interested then.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour ahead by one point: CON 32%, LAB 33%, LD 8%, UKIP 17%, GRN 5%

    Useless tories.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Tykejohnno

    'I understand Labour going for huge push on immigration... Shadow cabinet and every Labour MP made to hold public mtg on immigration'

    They will have to repeat Ed's Heywood & Middleton statement 'I am very proud of Labour's record on immigration' .

    When they say public meeting they mean the local Labour club.



  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    PCC South Yorkshire: UKIP by 3.18.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291


    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour ahead by one point: CON 32%, LAB 33%, LD 8%, UKIP 17%, GRN 5%

    Useless tories.

    Hey ho, better luck tomorrow.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Shocker for the Tories.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Newsnight leading with Labour's 30% shocker from yesterday.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    Where is the evidence that the British parliamentary system needs an EU referendum at this particular time ?
    UKIP winning seats and lib dems coming no where.

    Number of sets won by the Lib Dems in May council elections compared to number won by UKIP ? roughly 4 times as many .
    Who won the tv debates on the EU issue,clegg or farage ? a lot of people interested then.
    Were there a lot of people interested in the EU debates and how many said who had won based solely on the EU ?.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    chestnut said:

    Shocker for the Tories.

    Utterly devastating. I don't know how we'll cope.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    edited October 2014

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    He's a mendacious, deceitful and spineless careerist leading a totally self-interested and hypocritical party.

    After all the campaigning he did previously for an in/out EU referendum, and on opposing tuition fees, it's a wonder the Liberal Democrats are retaining any votes at all.
    Oh Dear another embittered pb tory who 4 years on still cannot get his head round the fact that his party did not win the last GE .
    What is it about the party of Clegg that has supporters abandoning it in droves? Why is it so massively unpopular?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    Where's tonight's YouGov?

    I greedily devoured it just now.... Mmmmmmm.....

    :)
    Sweet or savoury?
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    Where's tonight's YouGov?

    I greedily devoured it just now.... Mmmmmmm.....

    :)
    Sweet or savoury?
    It's Lab 33
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Half of Labour voters in Rochester set to vote UKIP according to the Sun
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    saddened said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    He's a mendacious, deceitful and spineless careerist leading a totally self-interested and hypocritical party.

    After all the campaigning he did previously for an in/out EU referendum, and on opposing tuition fees, it's a wonder the Liberal Democrats are retaining any votes at all.
    Oh Dear another embittered pb tory who 4 years on still cannot get his head round the fact that his party did not win the last GE .
    What is it about the party of Clegg that has supporters abandoning it in droves? Why is it so massively unpopular?
    It is the simple fact that for the benefit of the country as a whole we formed a coalition government with a party hated by 2/3rds of the voters and who cannot win a majority on its own . The Lib Dems are now sharing in the natural anti Conservative hatred .History may or may not change these perceptions post the next GE .

  • Sun Politics @Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour ahead by one point: CON 32%, LAB 33%, LD 8%, UKIP 17%, GRN 5%

    Useless tories.

    Looks like I didn't eat it after all!
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2014
    chestnut said:

    And this, purely by coincidence, finds it's way onto the front page of the BBC website

    "Asian girls 'also victims of sex grooming' in Rotherham"

    Nope, that's actually a way bigger story than the white care home girls, because it's so extensive.

    Conservative Asian families are in many cases deeply, deeply sexually repressed. There are lots and lots and lots of secrets to come out over the next couple of decades.

    In this new internet world where even the intel services can't keep stuff secret, we're going to have to confront all the dark areas of human behaviour. We'll find out stuff about our kids, our friends, our neighbours, our most trusted institutions and ultimately ourselves - that we probably don't want to know and won't want to confront.

    Everywhere we look, there are victims. And we will keep on finding new victims.

    If there's one positive thing, it's that we in the west are quite a bit further ahead in dealing with this than the rest of the world.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    OGH must be happy with the expert on Newsnight who just predicted Con most votes, Lab most seats in a hung parliament.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    Where is the evidence that the British parliamentary system needs an EU referendum at this particular time ?
    UKIP winning seats and lib dems coming no where.

    Number of sets won by the Lib Dems in May council elections compared to number won by UKIP ? roughly 4 times as many .
    Who won the tv debates on the EU issue,clegg or farage ? a lot of people interested then.
    Were there a lot of people interested in the EU debates and how many said who had won based solely on the EU ?.
    I could turn that around on you on Rochester and Strood ,how many people who are going to vote ukip,are voting because of the EU ? and the most pro EU party,the lib dems,where will they come in the vote ?

    On the EU tv debates -

    OK then,not solely based on the EU,it must have been cleggs crapness had something to do with it,he got a hammered.

    ;-)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pong said:

    chestnut said:

    And this, purely by coincidence, finds it's way onto the front page of the BBC website

    "Asian girls 'also victims of sex grooming' in Rotherham"

    Nope, that's actually a way bigger story than the white care home girls, because it's so extensive.

    Conservative Asian families are in many cases deeply, deeply sexually repressed. There are lots and lots and lots of secrets to come out over the next couple of decades.

    In this new internet world where even the intel services can't keep stuff secret, we're going to have to confront all the dark areas of human behaviour. We'll find out stuff about our kids, our friends, our neighbours, our most trusted institutions and ultimately ourselves - that we probably don't want to know and won't want to confront.

    Everywhere we look, there are victims. And we will keep on finding new victims.

    If there's one positive thing, it's that we in the west are quite a bit further ahead in dealing with this than the rest of the world.
    Is anyone not a victim?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Have to say this must be the first time sex has been linked with a PCC by-election. A great way of drumming up interest OGH
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    edited October 2014
    Popcorn on 7/8 May 2015 - and probably for a few days after that - is the conclusion to draw from the pollster on Newsnight.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371


    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour ahead by one point: CON 32%, LAB 33%, LD 8%, UKIP 17%, GRN 5%

    Useless tories.

    ARF!!!!
  • Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    Where is the evidence that the British parliamentary system needs an EU referendum at this particular time ?
    UKIP winning seats and lib dems coming no where.

    Number of sets won by the Lib Dems in May council elections compared to number won by UKIP ? roughly 4 times as many .
    Westminster by-elections:
    LibDems 10 lost deposits from 18, with Rochester still to come.
    UKIP only 4 lost deposits.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Labour to win the S Yorks PCC By-Election by 2.55%
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    chestnut said:

    Half of Labour voters in Rochester set to vote UKIP according to the Sun

    I suspect it's a bit like Tories in Heywood swinging to UKIP - possibly the only chance to try a different party, ever. Most of us think of politics on a left-right axis, but many people in by-elections don't think like that. It's interesting to speculate why it didn't happen in Newark, but of course the UKIP tide is stronger now.

  • Labour by 8.75
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    chestnut said:

    Half of Labour voters in Rochester set to vote UKIP according to the Sun

    I suspect it's a bit like Tories in Heywood swinging to UKIP - possibly the only chance to try a different party, ever. Most of us think of politics on a left-right axis, but many people in by-elections don't think like that. It's interesting to speculate why it didn't happen in Newark, but of course the UKIP tide is stronger now.

    Helmer was too extreme combined with the seat being middle-class.
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    Pong said:

    chestnut said:

    And this, purely by coincidence, finds it's way onto the front page of the BBC website

    "Asian girls 'also victims of sex grooming' in Rotherham"

    Nope, that's actually a way bigger story than the white care home girls, because it's so extensive.

    Conservative Asian families are in many cases deeply, deeply sexually repressed. There are lots and lots and lots of secrets to come out over the next couple of decades.

    You spouted this nonsense last night.

    If children are being assaulted, you can hardly accuse the perpetrators of being 'repressed', can you?

    As for it being a bigger story, no it isn't, despite the numbers. If it were, then certain child abuse scandals in the recent past would not have achieved the traction that they did because the numbers were so much smaller than those occurring within families.
  • Labour by 3.99%
  • Pong said:

    chestnut said:

    And this, purely by coincidence, finds it's way onto the front page of the BBC website

    "Asian girls 'also victims of sex grooming' in Rotherham"


    Conservative Asian families are in many cases deeply, deeply sexually repressed. There are lots and lots and lots of secrets to come out over the next couple of decades.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29727875
  • Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    Where is the evidence that the British parliamentary system needs an EU referendum at this particular time ?
    UKIP winning seats and lib dems coming no where.

    Number of sets won by the Lib Dems in May council elections compared to number won by UKIP ? roughly 4 times as many .
    Westminster by-elections:
    LibDems 10 lost deposits from 18, with Rochester still to come.
    UKIP only 4 lost deposits.
    Did the Greens save any deposits?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Daily Telegraph:

    "David Cameron's bid to enshrine an EU referendum in law has been dramatically blocked by Nick Clegg in a major blow to his efforts to renegotiate Britain's terms of membership.
    The Prime Minister was forced to drop legislation tying the next government to holding an in-out EU vote after Mr Clegg demanded reform of the so-called Bedroom Tax as his price for support."


    Is this the beginning of the end of the coalition?

    Two things to take away from this:

    1) Nick Clegg has complete contempt for the democratic will of the UK public

    2) David Cameron cares more about the bedroom tax than an EU referendum
    What democratic will expressed where ?
    The democratic will that would have been expressed in an EU referendum, except Nick Clegg doesn't want the public to have their say. Perhaps he should change the party name to Elitist Autocrats.
    Where is the evidence that the British parliamentary system needs an EU referendum at this particular time ?
    UKIP winning seats and lib dems coming no where.

    Number of sets won by the Lib Dems in May council elections compared to number won by UKIP ? roughly 4 times as many .
    Who won the tv debates on the EU issue,clegg or farage ? a lot of people interested then.
    Were there a lot of people interested in the EU debates and how many said who had won based solely on the EU ?.
    I could turn that around on you on Rochester and Strood ,how many people who are going to vote ukip,are voting because of the EU ? and the most pro EU party,the lib dems,where will they come in the vote ?

    On the EU tv debates -

    OK then,not solely based on the EU,it must have been cleggs crapness had something to do with it,he got a hammered.

    ;-)
    Of course antipathy towards the EU is one of the reasons people vote UKIP as are Immigration , pure racism , general dislike of all politicians and a variety of other reasons . None of this is evidence for there being a democratic will or need for a referendum on the EU or any other matter at this time .
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pong said:

    chestnut said:

    And this, purely by coincidence, finds it's way onto the front page of the BBC website

    "Asian girls 'also victims of sex grooming' in Rotherham"

    Nope, that's actually a way bigger story than the white care home girls, because it's so extensive.

    Conservative Asian families are in many cases deeply, deeply sexually repressed. There are lots and lots and lots of secrets to come out over the next couple of decades.

    In this new internet world where even the intel services can't keep stuff secret, we're going to have to confront all the dark areas of human behaviour. We'll find out stuff about our kids, our friends, our neighbours, our most trusted institutions and ultimately ourselves - that we probably don't want to know and won't want to confront.

    Everywhere we look, there are victims. And we will keep on finding new victims.

    If there's one positive thing, it's that we in the west are quite a bit further ahead in dealing with this than the rest of the world.
    I am sure that you are right. Patriachal societies where women are punished for staining their families honour by being raped are pretty certain to have some pretty unpleasant secrets in their closets.

    I think the surface has barely been scratched over abuse of women in parts of the world and also near at home.

    There needs to be a lot of publicity on these cases so that other victims can speak out and the guilty named.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @MarkSenior

    'It is the simple fact that for the benefit of the country as a whole we formed a coalition government with a party hated by 2/3rds of the voters and who cannot win a majority on its own '

    I guess losing 75% of voters since 2010 now makes the Lib Dems the most hated party,that must be an all time record for voters deserting a party.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    edited October 2014
    What exactly is Labour's stance on immigration?

    Completely pointless of them to deploy a "huge push" on the issue, seeing as they are party least trusted on it - understandably so, after 13 years under Labour of unprecedented, uncontrolled immigration that has transformed the face of the communities lived in by the very people the party was founded to represent.

    They are completely bankrupt on the issue. No one will listen to them on it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    edited October 2014
    'How Goldwater changed campaigns for ever' Fascinating article by Larry Sabato, in particular showing the close overlap between states where Goldwater won an above average voteshare and Romney won and states which gave LBJ an above average share of the vote which voted for Obama
    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/barry-goldwater-lasting-legacy-112210.html#.VFAev4ZpUzx
This discussion has been closed.