Mort d'Arthur @mortdarthur 46m Vote Ukip get Tory. Vote Tory get a photo of a penis. Vote LibDem get counselling.
Pity we don't have the like button any more. This was one of the best postings of the day. Made me snigger anyway.
On a more grown up level, do we just have YouGov left this evening? I know Michael Ashcroft is set to (probably) spoil the start of Tory conference with a poll fest tomorrow afternoon but are there any remaining delights for us to pour over this evening or are we reduced to trading kipper stories?
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
And here we see the pathology of the Tories. They're so angry when they are deprived of their perceived entitlement that they will put punishing the 'traitors' ahead of what's best for the country.
These are not UKIP-elected MPs in a normal election.
They are Conservative MPs; supported by the party, and voted by people supporting the Conservative party; jumping ship as they perceive their own personal careers will (they hope) be better off by doing so.
Traitors, in the circumstances, seems a reasonable word to use.
They may well win in the current difficult circumstances. Heck, Miliband may win next year in the circumstances. None of that changes what they are.
LOL What twaddle. Politics is not about my party right or wrong but about principles. Cameron has abandoned his
No he has just abandoned berks like you. Thankfully.
LOL When you have no answer to a challenge resort to an insult.
You really aren't very good at this are you. Any thoughts on the concept of principles in politics or is your party all you care about?
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Most Kippers will tell you that there job isn't to prop up the Tory Party.
It's to replace them.
We are the UK's oldest political party and will still be around long after Nigel's kippers have been eaten for breakfast by Gideon's pet cat.
I believe there's still a few continuity-Liberal Party councillors around.
The so-called continuity Liberal party is a new party created in 1989.
The Liberal Democrats are the continuation of the old Liberal party and could make a claim about being the oldest political party (whether the Liberals or Conservatives are older is a very abitrary and semantic based discussion iirc).
Maybe that's legally the case, but (as I do not know), does the continuity Liberal party have a good claim to be a closer spiritual successor to the old Liberal party than the LDs? If the merger into the LDs had enough of an influence on the identity of the party, I could conceive of an technically new party adhering closer to the old views to have a claim to be the real successors.
*shrugs*
Was New Labour the spiritual successor to Old Labour? And so on and so on (or if you're feeling mischevious, are Cameron and Blair both spiritual successors to the Alliance?)
Granted the question can be asked of any party (I am sure there are Liberal parties in the world which are Conservative parties and the like), but then that makes asking the question even more valid, and why claiming the legal heritage of a party need not mean much, if the modern day party is nothing like the originator. Are today's Republicans really able to claim much political continuity with Lincoln's Republicans for example?
Not to mention the Tories seem very far removed from the rebellious rogues the nickname originated with. Stay true to your roots, Tories.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
And here we see the pathology of the Tories. They're so angry when they are deprived of their perceived entitlement that they will put punishing the 'traitors' ahead of what's best for the country.
These are not UKIP-elected MPs in a normal election.
They are Conservative MPs; supported by the party, and voted by people supporting the Conservative party; jumping ship as they perceive their own personal careers will (they hope) be better off by doing so.
Traitors, in the circumstances, seems a reasonable word to use.
They may well win in the current difficult circumstances. Heck, Miliband may win next year in the circumstances. None of that changes what they are.
LOL What twaddle. Politics is not about my party right or wrong but about principles. Cameron has abandoned his
No he has just abandoned berks like you. Thankfully.
TSE Of course John Terry eventually lost the captaincy over his private life, but personally I am of the view that unless you are a complete hypocrite, you should be judged on your performance on the job you do, not your private life
" It's the Tories' failure to engage with the C1/C2s that has meant they have struggled to build a winning electoral platform for 20 years.
I don't believe that group is especially political - they was competant and efficient government, sensible economic policy (and I include immigration within that) and a leader who appears engaged with their needs. "
Indeed.
But if Charles can see it why can't the Cameroons. Why do the Cameroons support the Matthew Parris line ?
Generally speaking clearing out the loony fringe is no bad thing. It's preferable it happens further out, but a week is a long time in politics. Seven months is an aeon.
Whatever the tub thumpers on here may think, this will all be forgotten soon enough. I'm looking forward to proper politics next spring when UKIP will find life extremely uncomfortable.
The problem for UKIP is premature ejaculation, I think out of desperation or over-excitement.
Is the is the "UKIP vote will fade after the EU Parliament elections" line again?
To make OGH's header even more ridiculous Ominum has Labour DOWN 3 points after their conference and the Tories up. If the Tories have a good conference and Cameron raises his game and gives a brilliant speech, as he can do, we could still have crossover
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
And here we see the pathology of the Tories. They're so angry when they are deprived of their perceived entitlement that they will put punishing the 'traitors' ahead of what's best for the country.
These are not UKIP-elected MPs in a normal election.
They are Conservative MPs; supported by the party, and voted by people supporting the Conservative party; jumping ship as they perceive their own personal careers will (they hope) be better off by doing so.
Traitors, in the circumstances, seems a reasonable word to use.
They may well win in the current difficult circumstances. Heck, Miliband may win next year in the circumstances. None of that changes what they are.
LOL What twaddle. Politics is not about my party right or wrong but about principles. Cameron has abandoned his
No he has just abandoned berks like you. Thankfully.
LOL When you have no answer to a challenge resort to an insult.
You really aren't very good at this are you. Any thoughts on the concept of principles in politics or is your party all you care about?
Principles in politics - like calling your own supporters ting tongs? How does that work? Its you thats swimming in the sewer. Its us that are holding our noses.
Most of the hardcore elderly Kippers will be six feet under the golf course by then.
Nope that will be all the fault of the Tories
Once again since you seem to find this concept difficult to understand. Voters are abandoning the Tory party in droves not because of UKIP but because of what the Tories under Cameron have become.
They are becoming unelectable as a party and when they fail in 2015 that will be because of Cameron and his blind supporters.
"Britain's public finances remain in an appalling state, partly because the coalition has acted like a Labour government in protecting so much spending from both the axe and, just as importantly, from reform. "
How is UKIP going to balance the budget, yet reverse the bedroom tax? I would rather stick to Labours owl promise!
That is not hard to do if one is prepared to consider what the state has to to do as opposed to what it currently does, and chop accordingly. The Osborne salami-slicing of budgets cannot do the job of eliminating the deficit before the combined interest payments reach critical levels.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
And here we see the pathology of the Tories. They're so angry when they are deprived of their perceived entitlement that they will put punishing the 'traitors' ahead of what's best for the country.
These are not UKIP-elected MPs in a normal election.
They are Conservative MPs; supported by the party, and voted by people supporting the Conservative party; jumping ship as they perceive their own personal careers will (they hope) be better off by doing so.
Traitors, in the circumstances, seems a reasonable word to use.
They may well win in the current difficult circumstances. Heck, Miliband may win next year in the circumstances. None of that changes what they are.
LOL What twaddle. Politics is not about my party right or wrong but about principles. Cameron has abandoned his
No he has just abandoned berks like you. Thankfully.
LOL When you have no answer to a challenge resort to an insult.
You really aren't very good at this are you. Any thoughts on the concept of principles in politics or is your party all you care about?
Principles in politics - like calling your own supporters ting tongs? How does that work? Its you thats swimming in the sewer. Its us that are holding our noses.
The chairman of the Conservative Party was reported to have called Conservative Party members "swivel eyed loons".
Does anyone have up-to-date numbers on Conservative membership ?
With all these defections it must be dropping fast.
Not to mention that many of their remaining members must be oldies who joined decades ago and are in still in only out of habit.
Doubtless the Ganesh / Parris faction of Tories are happy that they no longer have to bother with so many party members from the lower socioeconomic groups.
Are we going to see a third defection? Would be sensational if someone quit before Cameron's speech.
It is quite possible, as it was mentioned a few days ago by UKIP that two further Tory MP's would be defecting. I don't think Reckless was definite until yesterday evening and I think the other Tory MP is not certain to defect. UKIP have been talking to a few Tories and I expect that the names have been mentioned on here. These are the Tory backbenchers who would vote to leave the EU and don't go along with Camerons liberal Tory agenda.
If I were putting money on it, I would put a small amount on Philip Davies defecting Monday or Tuesday.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Kippers hate Cameron more than they hate Miliband and vice versa.
And Kippers are increasingly incoherent in their rage and policies. I cannot see a Kipper Tory coalition working.
a UKIP-Tory pact could not work because they hate Cameroons more than Miliband, and would prefer no pledge for a referendum from Labour to a pledge to hold a referendum from a Cameron led Tory party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on. Yes, he was privately schooled but so was Nigel Farage. Cameron has dabbled in one policy that could be deemed progressive and anti-Christian - gay marriage. But Thatcher abolished corporal punishment in schools and introduced Sunday trading, which is surely just as bad or worse, yet most of them still adore her. No, I just can't work it out!
I think calling UKIP members fruit cakes, loonies and closet racists, then refusing to retract that statement when offered the chance might not have helped.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Kippers hate Cameron more than they hate Miliband and vice versa.
And Kippers are increasingly incoherent in their rage and policies. I cannot see a Kipper Tory coalition working.
a UKIP-Tory pact could not work because they hate Cameroons more than Miliband, and would prefer no pledge for a referendum from Labour to a pledge to hold a referendum from a Cameron led Tory party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on.
You have to remember that UKIP is mostly formed of the nasty party remnant on the right. Cameron's a diplomat and cautious when need demands. He finds the centre ground and this doesn't go down well with the nasties.
The maleness of UKIP will be part of their undoing. It might suit a rugby club, but it won't win the electorate.
Most of the hardcore elderly Kippers will be six feet under the golf course by then.
Nope that will be all the fault of the Tories
Once again since you seem to find this concept difficult to understand. Voters are abandoning the Tory party in droves not because of UKIP but because of what the Tories under Cameron have become.
They are becoming unelectable as a party and when they fail in 2015 that will be because of Cameron and his blind supporters.
"Britain's public finances remain in an appalling state, partly because the coalition has acted like a Labour government in protecting so much spending from both the axe and, just as importantly, from reform. "
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on. Yes, he was privately schooled but so was Nigel Farage. Cameron has dabbled in one policy that could be deemed progressive and anti-Christian - gay marriage. But Thatcher abolished corporal punishment in schools and introduced Sunday trading, which is surely just as bad or worse, yet most of them still adore her. No, I just can't work it out!
Dishonesty.
To give him great credit, the gay marriage thing was brilliant. If you could have him in power for a year just to get that passed I would buy that. It is worth a huge amount of other rubbish he has done.
But he has been and continues to be inherently dishonest about the one issue which matters a great deal to a substantial portion of UKIP support and that is the EU.
The thing is that it is not as if the EU is the be all and end all. But his ongoing dishonesty over that one important matter has meant that much of his support on the Right no longer trust him on anything. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
There was a time, back after the expenses scandal had broken and after all the deceit we had had from Blair and Brown, when Cameron had a huge amount of support because so many people - left right and centre, thought he was different, that he was genuinely honest. Different things drove different people away at different times in the succeeding months. For many on the Eurosceptic Right it was Lisbon and the Cast Iron Promise. As far as they were concerned that showed that he was no different and certainly no better than the rest of the political elite. It was a touchstone.
It is interesting to go back and see how quickly Cameron's huge lead evaporated after the dropping of the Cast Iron pledge. It cost him the majority not because everyone was a fanatical Eurosceptic but because it showed his true light. Everything else he has done has been seen through that filter.
Cameron is tainted. He will never regain that trust on the Right and that means that as long as he remains leader the Tories will never regain that crucial support.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline. .
Most Kippers will tell you that there job isn't to prop up the Tory Party.
It's to replace them.
We are the UK's oldest political party and will still be around long after Nigel's kippers have been eaten for breakfast by Gideon's pet cat.
I believe there's still a few continuity-Liberal Party councillors around.
.
Maybe that's legally the case, but (as I do not know), does the continuity Liberal party have a good claim to be a closer spiritual successor to the old Liberal party than the LDs? If the merger into the LDs had enough of an influence on the identity of the party, I could conceive of an technically new party adhering closer to the old views to have a claim to be the real successors.
*shrugs*
Was New Labour the spiritual successor to Old Labour? And so on and so on (or if you're feeling mischevious, are Cameron and Blair both spiritual successors to the Alliance?)
Granted the question can be asked of any party (I am sure there are Liberal parties in the world which are Conservative parties and the like), but then that makes asking the question even more valid, and why claiming the legal heritage of a party need not mean much, if the modern day party is nothing like the originator. Are today's Republicans really able to claim much political continuity with Lincoln's Republicans for example?
Not to mention the Tories seem very far removed from the rebellious rogues the nickname originated with. Stay true to your roots, Tories.
What question are you asking?
In terms of the oldest political party that's an organisational question.
In terms of how parties have evolved then the answer is a lot. We are dramatically to the left of when those parties emerged in the mid-19th centuries. Hence the old Harcourt quote "We're all socialists now".
The closest you can get is possibly a similar philosophical starting point. Mill's On Liberty being the traditional Liberal ones, routed through Berlin to the modern age. So the foundation is the same even if the end point application has changed massively. That can get tenuous though.
A party that was similar to those mid-19th century ones would get smashed in short order, they were then and are now products of their era.
volcanopete the whole Mirror story is ridiculous, a male journo, pretending to be a glamorous female political activist, attempts to seduce a minister over social media
Are we going to see a third defection? Would be sensational if someone quit before Cameron's speech.
It is quite possible, as it was mentioned a few days ago by UKIP that two further Tory MP's would be defecting. I don't think Reckless was definite until yesterday evening and I think the other Tory MP is not certain to defect. UKIP have been talking to a few Tories and I expect that the names have been mentioned on here. These are the Tory backbenchers who would vote to leave the EU and don't go along with Camerons liberal Tory agenda.
If I were putting money on it, I would put a small amount on Philip Davies defecting Monday or Tuesday.
volcanopete the whole Mirror story is ridiculous, a male journo, pretending to be a glamorous female political activist, attempts to seduce a minister over social media
Wonder what Hacked Off will do about the entrapment
Reckless principled? To do it on the eve of the Tory Conference.. He's just a nasty little sh*t.
Not sure you understand politics.
Oh I do , only too well. Reckless resigned today, to cause maximum damage to his former party, I understand the politics, but it doesn't stop me thinking quite rightly that he's a nasty litte sh*t
I suggest you await events. Then we will see what sort of a person he is.
An interesting day to say the least. I don't imagine for a moment it has finally put paid to the Conservatives' chances next May but it's preventing them projecting a positive message at the start of the Conference and that's far from helpful and with each day that goes by...
On the issue of Ed Milliband, I find some of the comments about his speech enlightening. I'm convinced the omissions of the deficit and immigration were entirely intentional. The election is still months away and now is the time to play the strong cards and say the popular messgaes.
I certainly wouldn't want to talk about my perceived areas of weakness and give my opponents months (or indeed hours) to undermine and pick apart the policy. The election campaign is the time to do this - make it late, keep it vague so to speak. As far as the economy is concerned, it seems perfectly reasonable for Labour (and indeed all other parties) to argue that since we've not heard Osborne's Budget let alone the Autumn Statement the onus is on the Government to make the proposal and for the Opposition to respond and counter.
Immigration is more difficult for Labour (and indeed all other parties except UKIP). For me, the central tenet of the immigration argument seems to me that membership of the EU and the concept of free movement of labour enshrined within the Single Market isn't working when the flow of people (or cheap labour) is so demonstrably one-sided.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
And here we see the pathology of the Tories. They're so angry when they are deprived of their perceived entitlement that they will put punishing the 'traitors' ahead of what's best for the country.
These are not UKIP-elected MPs in a normal election.
They are Conservative MPs; supported by the party, and voted by people supporting the Conservative party; jumping ship as they perceive their own personal careers will (they hope) be better off by doing so.
Traitors, in the circumstances, seems a reasonable word to use.
They may well win in the current difficult circumstances. Heck, Miliband may win next year in the circumstances. None of that changes what they are.
LOL What twaddle. Politics is not about my party right or wrong but about principles. Cameron has abandoned his
No he has just abandoned berks like you. Thankfully.
The "Berks" seem to be 19% of the electorate. If Cameron thinks they aren't worth bothering with, he has a very narrow path to victory
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
And here we see the pathology of the Tories. They're so angry when they are deprived of their perceived entitlement that they will put punishing the 'traitors' ahead of what's best for the country.
These are not UKIP-elected MPs in a normal election.
They are Conservative MPs; supported by the party, and voted by people supporting the Conservative party; jumping ship as they perceive their own personal careers will (they hope) be better off by doing so.
Traitors, in the circumstances, seems a reasonable word to use.
They may well win in the current difficult circumstances. Heck, Miliband may win next year in the circumstances. None of that changes what they are.
LOL What twaddle. Politics is not about my party right or wrong but about principles. Cameron has abandoned his
No he has just abandoned berks like you. Thankfully.
LOL When you have no answer to a challenge resort to an insult.
You really aren't very good at this are you. Any thoughts on the concept of principles in politics or is your party all you care about?
Principles in politics - like calling your own supporters ting tongs? How does that work? Its you thats swimming in the sewer. Its us that are holding our noses.
Still happy to have Ken ""with a bit of luck you'll get Aids" Gregory as one of your councillors then?
I am afraid your glasshouse is rapidly running out of panes.
Generally speaking clearing out the loony fringe is no bad thing. It's preferable it happens further out, but a week is a long time in politics. Seven months is an aeon.
Whatever the tub thumpers on here may think, this will all be forgotten soon enough. I'm looking forward to proper politics next spring when UKIP will find life extremely uncomfortable.
The problem for UKIP is premature ejaculation, I think out of desperation or over-excitement.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Kippers hate Cameron more than they hate Miliband and vice versa.
And Kippers are increasingly incoherent in their rage and policies. I cannot see a Kipper Tory coalition working.
a UKIP-Tory pact could not work because they hate Cameroons more than Miliband, and would prefer no pledge for a referendum from Labour to a pledge to hold a referendum from a Cameron led Tory party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on. Yes, he was privately schooled but so was Nigel Farage. Cameron has dabbled in one policy that could be deemed progressive and anti-Christian - gay marriage. But Thatcher abolished corporal punishment in schools and introduced Sunday trading, which is surely just as bad or worse, yet most of them still adore her. No, I just can't work it out!
The difference is that Farage insults functionaries of the EU in public whereas Cameron is diplomatic - he has to negotiate with them.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Most Kippers will tell you that there job isn't to prop up the Tory Party.
It's to replace them.
We are the UK's oldest political party and will still be around long after Nigel's kippers have been eaten for breakfast by Gideon's pet cat.
Remind us how well you Scottish Tories are doing.
For a bonus point remind us of how many Holyrood constituencies you predicted the Scottish Tories would win in 2011.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Kippers hate Cameron more than they hate Miliband and vice versa.
And Kippers are increasingly incoherent in their rage and policies. I cannot see a Kipper Tory coalition working.
a UKIP-Tory pact could not work because they hate Cameroons more than Miliband, and would prefer no pledge for a referendum from Labour to a pledge to hold a referendum from a Cameron led Tory party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on.
You have to remember that UKIP is mostly formed of the nasty party remnant on the right. Cameron's a diplomat and cautious when need demands. He finds the centre ground and this doesn't go down well with the nasties.
The maleness of UKIP will be part of their undoing. It might suit a rugby club, but it won't win the electorate.
Maleness, like Whiteness, being an obviously reprehensible characteristic for the PC left.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Kippers hate Cameron more than they hate Miliband and vice versa.
And Kippers are increasingly incoherent in their rage and policies. I cannot see a Kipper Tory coalition working.
a UKIP-Tory pact could not work because they hate Cameroons more than Miliband, and would prefer no pledge for a referendum from Labour to a pledge to hold a referendum from a Cameron led Tory party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on. Yes, he was privately schooled but so was Nigel Farage. Cameron has dabbled in one policy that could be deemed progressive and anti-Christian - gay marriage. But Thatcher abolished corporal punishment in schools and introduced Sunday trading, which is surely just as bad or worse, yet most of them still adore her. No, I just can't work it out!
The difference is that Farage insults functionaries of the EU in public whereas Cameron is diplomatic - he has to negotiate with them.
Reckless principled? To do it on the eve of the Tory Conference.. He's just a nasty little sh*t.
Not sure you understand politics.
Oh I do , only too well. Reckless resigned today, to cause maximum damage to his former party, I understand the politics, but it doesn't stop me thinking quite rightly that he's a nasty litte sh*t
I suggest you await events. Then we will see what sort of a person he is.
I will, but everything I've heard about and seen of him suggests he is putting principle, his political beliefs and his country before party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on. Yes, he was privately schooled but so was Nigel Farage. Cameron has dabbled in one policy that could be deemed progressive and anti-Christian - gay marriage. But Thatcher abolished corporal punishment in schools and introduced Sunday trading, which is surely just as bad or worse, yet most of them still adore her. No, I just can't work it out!
Dishonesty.
To give him great credit, the gay marriage thing was brilliant. If you could have him in power for a year just to get that passed I would buy that. It is worth a huge amount of other rubbish he has done.
But he has been and continues to be inherently dishonest about the one issue which matters a great deal to a substantial portion of UKIP support and that is the EU.
The thing is that it is not as if the EU is the be all and end all. But his ongoing dishonesty over that one important matter has meant that much of his support on the Right no longer trust him on anything. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
There was a time, back after the expenses scandal had broken and after all the deceit we had had from Blair and Brown, when Cameron had a huge amount of support because so many people - left right and centre, thought he was different, that he was genuinely honest. Different things drove different people away at different times in the succeeding months. For many on the Eurosceptic Right it was Lisbon and the Cast Iron Promise. As far as they were concerned that showed that he was no different and certainly no better than the rest of the political elite. It was a touchstone.
It is interesting to go back and see how quickly Cameron's huge lead evaporated after the dropping of the Cast Iron pledge. It cost him the majority not because everyone was a fanatical Eurosceptic but because it showed his true light. Everything else he has done has been seen through that filter.
Cameron is tainted. He will never regain that trust on the Right and that means that as long as he remains leader the Tories will never regain that crucial support.
Your comment on a "Cast Iron Promise" is either: (a) deliberately misremembering, (b) mischievously misremembering, or (c) actually misremembering. Which is it?
There was no point holding a Ref after Brown snuck in and already signed it, and Cameron never promised to do so.
This demonstrates Cameron's biggest weaknesses: his laziness and his aloofness. He simply hasn't been bothered to do the kind of conciliatory listening to the concerns of his backbenchers that all successful leaders have to do. It's an object lesson in how important that kind of stuff is.
You really think the fruit loops are interested in listening? The EU is quickly dissappearing into the distance for UKIP. It has learned it can peddle a racist homophobic anti outsider agenda. I'm right wing but I'm not a bigot. The real issue is the parking of an underclass on benefits its the lack of preparation for work of our young. The issue of immigration is because of the success of our economy and the need to serve it and the unwillingness and unfitness of some Brits to take part. UKIP simply blame the hardworking Poles and smear everyone with a dark skin.
Good job you didnt just smear anyone who votes UKIP then.... oh
What is clear from all tonight's polls is Labour has got zero bounce from its last pre-election conference. Although it has started badly, we will see if the Tories can get one from theirs! Cameron is still a far better speaker than Miliband
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline. .
Most Kippers will tell you that there job isn't to prop up the Tory Party.
It's to replace them.
We are the UK's oldest political party and will still be around long after Nigel's kippers have been eaten for breakfast by Gideon's pet cat.
I believe there's still a few continuity-Liberal Party councillors around.
.
Maybe that's legally the case, but (as I do not know), does the continuity Liberal party have a good claim to be a closer spiritual successor to the old Liberal party than the LDs? If the merger into the LDs had enough of an influence on the identity of the party, I could conceive of an technically new party adhering closer to the old views to have a claim to be the real successors.
*shrugs*
Was New Labour the spiritual successor to Old Labour? And so on and so on (or if you're feeling mischevious, are Cameron and Blair both spiritual successors to the Alliance?)
Not to mention the Tories seem very far removed from the rebellious rogues the nickname originated with. Stay true to your roots, Tories.
I was just curious about the boasting value about any party claiming to be the oldest political party if it is, in fact, politically or philosophically unrecognizable from its earliest forms, as there was discussion on here about whether the Conservatives or the LDs would best fit that description of 'oldest party'.
You are of course quite right that if either or any party were quite similar to those mid19th century parties they would not do well, politics, parties and society have all evolved since then as is entirely correct. The question about which of today's parties can credibly claim to be the oldest party is therefore interesting to know and pretty cool for the party in question, but that got me thinking about how to know which party is closest to its roots, or which continuity parties claim to be, would also be pretty cool to know. It reminds me of religious sects arguing over which of them is closer to the original foundation of their specific faiths. If one is it need not mean it is better, but it'd be cool to know.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
And here we see the pathology of the Tories. They're so angry when they are deprived of their perceived entitlement that they will put punishing the 'traitors' ahead of what's best for the country.
These are not UKIP-elected MPs in a normal election.
They are Conservative MPs; supported by the party, and voted by people supporting the Conservative party; jumping ship as they perceive their own personal careers will (they hope) be better off by doing so.
Traitors, in the circumstances, seems a reasonable word to use.
Traitor is a strong word, especially when we live in times when politicians won't use the word to describe people who go abroad to fight for our enemies.
Crossing the floor of the House is an honourable tradition. Churchill did it twice (ratted and re-ratted). The political convention has been that you do not have to put yourself up to the electorate, as they voted for you as an individual, and most defectors claim that the new party has actually come to represent their views better than the old one.
I don't see the problem. It adds to the drama of party politics and the gaiety of the nation.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Kippers hate Cameron more than they hate Miliband and vice versa.
And Kippers are increasingly incoherent in their rage and policies. I cannot see a Kipper Tory coalition working.
a UKIP-Tory pact could not work because they hate Cameroons more than Miliband, and would prefer no pledge for a referendum from Labour to a pledge to hold a referendum from a Cameron led Tory party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on.
You have to remember that UKIP is mostly formed of the nasty party remnant on the right. Cameron's a diplomat and cautious when need demands. He finds the centre ground and this doesn't go down well with the nasties.
The maleness of UKIP will be part of their undoing. It might suit a rugby club, but it won't win the electorate.
Maleness, like Whiteness, being an obviously reprehensible characteristic for the PC left.
audreyanne is a Cameron cheerleader.
I can understand why that seems identical to the PC left.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Kippers hate Cameron more than they hate Miliband and vice versa.
And Kippers are increasingly incoherent in their rage and policies. I cannot see a Kipper Tory coalition working.
a UKIP-Tory pact could not work because they hate Cameroons more than Miliband, and would prefer no pledge for a referendum from Labour to a pledge to hold a referendum from a Cameron led Tory party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on.
You have to remember that UKIP is mostly formed of the nasty party remnant on the right. Cameron's a diplomat and cautious when need demands. He finds the centre ground and this doesn't go down well with the nasties.
The maleness of UKIP will be part of their undoing. It might suit a rugby club, but it won't win the electorate.
Maleness, like Whiteness, being an obviously reprehensible characteristic for the PC left.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
And here we see the pathology of the Tories. They're so angry when they are deprived of their perceived entitlement that they will put punishing the 'traitors' ahead of what's best for the country.
These are not UKIP-elected MPs in a normal election.
They are Conservative MPs; supported by the party, and voted by people supporting the Conservative party; jumping ship as they perceive their own personal careers will (they hope) be better off by doing so.
Traitors, in the circumstances, seems a reasonable word to use.
They may well win in the current difficult circumstances. Heck, Miliband may win next year in the circumstances. None of that changes what they are.
LOL What twaddle. Politics is not about my party right or wrong but about principles. Cameron has abandoned his
No he has just abandoned berks like you. Thankfully.
Another person on here who throws around personal insults
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Kippers hate Cameron more than they hate Miliband and vice versa.
And Kippers are increasingly incoherent in their rage and policies. I cannot see a Kipper Tory coalition working.
a UKIP-Tory pact could not work because they hate Cameroons more than Miliband, and would prefer no pledge for a referendum from Labour to a pledge to hold a referendum from a Cameron led Tory party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on. Yes, he was privately schooled but so was Nigel Farage. Cameron has dabbled in one policy that could be deemed progressive and anti-Christian - gay marriage. But Thatcher abolished corporal punishment in schools and introduced Sunday trading, which is surely just as bad or worse, yet most of them still adore her. No, I just can't work it out!
Well here's a hint Stark. You don't abuse your supporters or sympathetic voters. You don't so submissively get into bed with the Libdems. You do not vacillate over the EU. You don't make commitments on Immigration you have no intention of keeping. You don't cling to globalist gesture politics like the International Aid commitment when the country is in recession and so it goes on. If it was one thing he'd probably be doing OK but really I think its that Cameron is the encapsulation of the Tory Party's untrustworthiness and betrayal of conservative voters over almost 50 years going back to Heath. He's everything that a lot of people really just don't like about the Tories.
Was New Labour the spiritual successor to Old Labour? And so on and so on (or if you're feeling mischevious, are Cameron and Blair both spiritual successors to the Alliance?)
Not to mention the Tories seem very far removed from the rebellious rogues the nickname originated with. Stay true to your roots, Tories.
In many respects I don't think we are that different from those who founded the party to show their support for James VII and II, who largely opposed the Act and Treaty of Union and whose descendants included Macmillan, Whitelaw and Cameron, the One Nation Tories of which I am proud to say I am one. We neither swing to the left nor the right. We hover in the centre ground which we have occupied for more than three centuries.
5 point lead for labour after their conference. Half of people think Miliband is out of his depth and only 9% think he is competent. Those are dreadful numbers,
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
And here we see the pathology of the Tories. They're so angry when they are deprived of their perceived entitlement that they will put punishing the 'traitors' ahead of what's best for the country.
These are not UKIP-elected MPs in a normal election.
They are Conservative MPs; supported by the party, and voted by people supporting the Conservative party; jumping ship as they perceive their own personal careers will (they hope) be better off by doing so.
Traitors, in the circumstances, seems a reasonable word to use.
They may well win in the current difficult circumstances. Heck, Miliband may win next year in the circumstances. None of that changes what they are.
LOL What twaddle. Politics is not about my party right or wrong but about principles. Cameron has abandoned his
No he has just abandoned berks like you. Thankfully.
The "Berks" seem to be 19% of the electorate. If Cameron thinks they aren't worth bothering with, he has a very narrow path to victory
What is becoming increasingly evident is how much the establishment Tories hate anyone who is different to themselves.
They exude a sense of privileged entitlement and really are the 'nasty party'.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
Kippers hate Cameron more than they hate Miliband and vice versa.
And Kippers are increasingly incoherent in their rage and policies. I cannot see a Kipper Tory coalition working.
a UKIP-Tory pact could not work because they hate Cameroons more than Miliband, and would prefer no pledge for a referendum from Labour to a pledge to hold a referendum from a Cameron led Tory party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on. Yes, he was privately schooled but so was Nigel Farage. Cameron has dabbled in one policy that could be deemed progressive and anti-Christian - gay marriage. But Thatcher abolished corporal punishment in schools and introduced Sunday trading, which is surely just as bad or worse, yet most of them still adore her. No, I just can't work it out!
Well here's a hint Stark. You don't abuse your supporters or sympathetic voters. You don't so submissively get into bed with the Libdems. You do not vacillate over the EU. You don't make commitments on Immigration you have no intention of keeping. You don't cling to globalist gesture politics like the International Aid commitment when the country is in recession and so it goes on. If it was one thing he'd probably be doing OK but really I think its that Cameron is the encapsulation of the Tory Party's untrustworthiness and betrayal of conservative voters over almost 50 years going back to Heath. He's everything that a lot of people really just don't like about the Tories.
This demonstrates Cameron's biggest weaknesses: his laziness and his aloofness. He simply hasn't been bothered to do the kind of conciliatory listening to the concerns of his backbenchers that all successful leaders have to do. It's an object lesson in how important that kind of stuff is.
You really think the fruit loops are interested in listening? The EU is quickly dissappearing into the distance for UKIP. It has learned it can peddle a racist homophobic anti outsider agenda. I'm right wing but I'm not a bigot. The real issue is the parking of an underclass on benefits its the lack of preparation for work of our young. The issue of immigration is because of the success of our economy and the need to serve it and the unwillingness and unfitness of some Brits to take part. UKIP simply blame the hardworking Poles and smear everyone with a dark skin.
I am currently trying to work out if you have ever made a post on here that wasn't an ignorant bigoted smear. You really are a dinosaur.
I suppose we should be grateful. It is just this sort of moronic behaviour that drives more people out of the Tory party.
All this talk of defections. I was starting to panic that Neil Hamilton might defect from UKIP to the Tory Party. We would politely have to decline.
Tories have long memories and never forgive political treachery. Kippers are kidding themselves if they think we will form a coalition with them. They can climb into bed with the Labour party they are doing their best to help get elected.
And here we see the pathology of the Tories. They're so angry when they are deprived of their perceived entitlement that they will put punishing the 'traitors' ahead of what's best for the country.
These are not UKIP-elected MPs in a normal election.
They are Conservative MPs; supported by the party, and voted by people supporting the Conservative party; jumping ship as they perceive their own personal careers will (they hope) be better off by doing so.
Traitors, in the circumstances, seems a reasonable word to use.
They may well win in the current difficult circumstances. Heck, Miliband may win next year in the circumstances. None of that changes what they are.
LOL What twaddle. Politics is not about my party right or wrong but about principles. Cameron has abandoned his
No he has just abandoned berks like you. Thankfully.
When you are insulting, you are losing
I'd agree, but I find it hard to believe 90-95% of people across the political spectrum are losing at any one time.
Your comment on a "Cast Iron Promise" is either: (a) deliberately misremembering, (b) mischievously misremembering, or (c) actually misremembering. Which is it?
There was no point holding a Ref after Brown snuck in and already signed it, and Cameron never promised to do so.
But they never explicitly told us that, they fudged and fannied around when asked the question. A bit more clarity would have been nice. I wasn't surprised, I expected that was what the answer would have been, but would have been preferred to be told "you have a cast iron guarantee of a referendum, unless the treaty has already been signed when there will be no point and we will just have to put up with it".
The Sunday Times have seen some polling from Lord Ashcroft that is published tomorrow
The latest polling by Lord Ashcroft, the life peer, shows most voters who switched from the Tories say they will consider voting for the party again next May.
Kippers hate Cameron more than they hate Miliband and vice versa.
And Kippers are increasingly incoherent in their rage and policies. I cannot see a Kipper Tory coalition working.
a UKIP-Tory pact could not work because they hate Cameroons more than Miliband, and would prefer no pledge for a referendum from Labour to a pledge to hold a referendum from a Cameron led Tory party.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on. Yes, he was privately schooled but so was Nigel Farage. Cameron has dabbled in one policy that could be deemed progressive and anti-Christian - gay marriage. But Thatcher abolished corporal punishment in schools and introduced Sunday trading, which is surely just as bad or worse, yet most of them still adore her. No, I just can't work it out!
Thatcher closed grammar schools and introduced the poll tax into Scotland. She signed us into the single market and made no attempt to leave the EU. She also lost the Falkland Islands before having to fight a damn close run thing to retake them.
Its not Thatcher as was, it the use of her invented memory to invoke something you want to promote. The loony right are as bad as the lying left, Its a bit like saying the memory of Thatcher is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
I am a big big fan of Thatcher; of course one of her most able lieutenants in taking on the vested interests in Health Education was Ken Clarke who under Major regained control of spending and bequeathed a rapidly falling deficit. The loonys will not credit him for that. But did she cut public sector jobs like Cameron is? Did we see the level of job creation? Did she ever offer a referendum on the EU? Take NHS spending between 1980 and 1990; it went from 11 billion to 50 billion. Has Cameron increased NHS spending 5 fold? He is working to contain it to a fraction of that and there is silence from cretins like Reckless as Labour make politics out of it. Faced with that level of honesty from the fruity right does the nation have chance? The Right letting the nation down again. As a supporter of the Right I think I am entitled to be angry.
Whichever way you look at it the criticism of Cameron is hysteric baloney used by people who are fundamentally cowards, bigots and cowardly bigots, exploiting dark fears for their own nefarious ends. Just as Thatcher was not perfect neither is Cameron. None of this is the point. Europhile Miliband, who could not bring himself to talk about the deficit in public, and Labour are far worse.
Miliband trusted more on Welfare benefits - to slash them or protect them? It was my understanding people generally indicate they support cuts to welfare (even if in practice they end up being less positive most of the time), and I doubt people trust Miliband to do that.
The Sunday Times have seen some polling from Lord Ashcroft that is published tomorrow
The latest polling by Lord Ashcroft, the life peer, shows most voters who switched from the Tories say they will consider voting for the party again next May.
Surely swing voters consider all their options? It's the partisans that ignore the field.
Your comment on a "Cast Iron Promise" is either: (a) deliberately misremembering, (b) mischievously misremembering, or (c) actually misremembering. Which is it?
There was no point holding a Ref after Brown snuck in and already signed it, and Cameron never promised to do so.
I don't think that's fair. The pledge stated:
"Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations. No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum."
Whilst it can be argued that the final sentence means a referendum is reliant on the treaty not being ratified, it is far from the only (and I'd say, far from the obvious) interpretation. And it can't be said that holding a referendum post-ratification was clearly unviable: the original EEC referendum had happened post-ratification after all.
If Cameron meant to make his pledge conditional on Lisbon not being ratified before he became PM he should have made that a lot more clear, and in the absence of a clear statement to that effect it seems to me far from unreasonable for people to feel let down by his pledge.
What is clear from all tonight's polls is Labour has got zero bounce from its last pre-election conference. Although it has started badly, we will see if the Tories can get one from theirs! Cameron is still a far better speaker than Miliband
Agreed. A pretty dire return for Labour from its conference. That said many supporters will admit to being slightly relieved the polling didn't collapse - so bad was the coverage of the conference.
I'm not sure, however, that Cam is a better speaker. I think both are decent speakers.
But Ed had a bad day at the office at a very bad time.
Yes, the raw hatred of UKIP members towards Cameron is curious. I wonder what brought it on. Yes, he was privately schooled but so was Nigel Farage. Cameron has dabbled in one policy that could be deemed progressive and anti-Christian - gay marriage. But Thatcher abolished corporal punishment in schools and introduced Sunday trading, which is surely just as bad or worse, yet most of them still adore her. No, I just can't work it out!
Your comment on a "Cast Iron Promise" is either: (a) deliberately misremembering, (b) mischievously misremembering, or (c) actually misremembering. Which is it?
There was no point holding a Ref after Brown snuck in and already signed it, and Cameron never promised to do so.
Its not about whether he was technically honest or not. Its the overriding impression people walk away with and that was that he was not to be trusted. A large part of that was not that he could not deliver on that referendum but that he had no substantive alternative plan to bring about a referendum (particularly given the referendum lock legislation is equally fake). he had no real desire to force the issue of the EU. He thought he could just walk away and get away with it. He didn't and all he had done was send a big signal to say he was not a Eurosceptic. After that it was downhill all the way.
Entitlement to housing benefit should be determined by need, not age. Like the "Bedroom tax" there are going to be numerous examples of people being screwed through no fault of their own.
Your comment on a "Cast Iron Promise" is either: (a) deliberately misremembering, (b) mischievously misremembering, or (c) actually misremembering. Which is it?
There was no point holding a Ref after Brown snuck in and already signed it, and Cameron never promised to do so.
There is no mis-remembering. The Cast Iron Promise was deliberately misleading and a number of us were saying so when it was originally made. It was designed specifically to make people think it meant one thing when it meant entirely something else. It is very sad that so many people fell for it.
Of course you will try to claim otherwise as you were caught out by the fact that after the event so many people came to see it as the lie it was intended to be.
The fact that you Cameroon's are still in denial about this after all this time shows just how out of touch you are.
Some of the LDs stand for more state control than any Liberals could claim to stomach; and some are almost as green as the authoritarians led by Bennet and Lucas.
The LDs are not 'liberals' are they? There still is a 'Liberal Party' Its hard to say what it is - but I'd have to guess its hand wringing Social Democrat. Its a plausible stance to take. It comes a long way second best to me, but in the main the criticism I have of them is that in govt they just want to dis their partners and milk what they can for themselves. The last 5 years are not about high sounding principles at all, its just about fiddling an angle to look good and survive.
So the England captain has had sex with a prostitute gran but a lower league minister has to resign for suggesting he will play away?
In Claridges? Good grief. I bet it was not an English gentleman. Not that I would ever take you for a lady of negotiable virtue anywhere, Miss P, but only a cad would expect to find such a lady in Claridges. The Mayfair Hotel is the place to go for that sort of thing, you can't move in the bar for them.
In many respects I don't think we are that different from those who founded the party to show their support for James VII and II, who largely opposed the Act and Treaty of Union and whose descendants included Macmillan, Whitelaw and Cameron, the One Nation Tories of which I am proud to say I am one. We neither swing to the left nor the right. We hover in the centre ground which we have occupied for more than three centuries.
Important not to over react to the events of today. Yes, this is a setback for the Tories. But it's not terminal for their chances in 2015.
There probably will be a further defection on Wednesday. But that'll probably be it. It's clear UKIP haven't been able to convince anyone else to jump ship, and the window for by-elections before the general election is rapidly closing. Any further defectors will have to either be those standing down in 2015, or those gambling on winning in the general.
Farage's strategy is clear: he wants a cadre of MPs to be able to make a watertight case for his inclusion in the debates next year. He then hopes to leverage that profile to win a dozen or so MPs in the election itself, and hold the balance of power in a hung parliament.
The trouble is that Farage won't be one of the (three max) UKIP MPs next year. He probably will get some sort of national stage, but not on a level pegging with Ed Miliband and Cameron.
I do expect him to win several MPs next year (probably 6-7 MPs) but in the key marginals it will be a straight Con-Lab fight where UKIP haven't established themselves. The data and polling above supports that: it is a close race and a choice between the lesser of two evils.
A Conservative minority government is still a strong possibility.
Comments
On a more grown up level, do we just have YouGov left this evening? I know Michael Ashcroft is set to (probably) spoil the start of Tory conference with a poll fest tomorrow afternoon but are there any remaining delights for us to pour over this evening or are we reduced to trading kipper stories?
You really aren't very good at this are you. Any thoughts on the concept of principles in politics or is your party all you care about?
Not to mention the Tories seem very far removed from the rebellious rogues the nickname originated with. Stay true to your roots, Tories.
Your arrogance is appalling.
That's Cameron and the Cameron fanboys.
Clueless.
" It's the Tories' failure to engage with the C1/C2s that has meant they have struggled to build a winning electoral platform for 20 years.
I don't believe that group is especially political - they was competant and efficient government, sensible economic policy (and I include immigration within that) and a leader who appears engaged with their needs. "
Indeed.
But if Charles can see it why can't the Cameroons. Why do the Cameroons support the Matthew Parris line ?
Its you thats swimming in the sewer. Its us that are holding our noses.
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2013/05/party-chairman-lord-feldman-denies-calling-party-members-mad-swivel-eyed-loons.html
With all these defections it must be dropping fast.
Not to mention that many of their remaining members must be oldies who joined decades ago and are in still in only out of habit.
Doubtless the Ganesh / Parris faction of Tories are happy that they no longer have to bother with so many party members from the lower socioeconomic groups.
But I need Opinium's tables to complete it!
If I were putting money on it, I would put a small amount on Philip Davies defecting Monday or Tuesday.
http://tinyurl.com/kd6kfuz
The maleness of UKIP will be part of their undoing. It might suit a rugby club, but it won't win the electorate.
David Owen - "We're the party that never breaks its promises"
David Steel - "Why is that David"
David Owen - "Because we're never in government"
To give him great credit, the gay marriage thing was brilliant. If you could have him in power for a year just to get that passed I would buy that. It is worth a huge amount of other rubbish he has done.
But he has been and continues to be inherently dishonest about the one issue which matters a great deal to a substantial portion of UKIP support and that is the EU.
The thing is that it is not as if the EU is the be all and end all. But his ongoing dishonesty over that one important matter has meant that much of his support on the Right no longer trust him on anything. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
There was a time, back after the expenses scandal had broken and after all the deceit we had had from Blair and Brown, when Cameron had a huge amount of support because so many people - left right and centre, thought he was different, that he was genuinely honest. Different things drove different people away at different times in the succeeding months. For many on the Eurosceptic Right it was Lisbon and the Cast Iron Promise. As far as they were concerned that showed that he was no different and certainly no better than the rest of the political elite. It was a touchstone.
It is interesting to go back and see how quickly Cameron's huge lead evaporated after the dropping of the Cast Iron pledge. It cost him the majority not because everyone was a fanatical Eurosceptic but because it showed his true light. Everything else he has done has been seen through that filter.
Cameron is tainted. He will never regain that trust on the Right and that means that as long as he remains leader the Tories will never regain that crucial support.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/new-tory-charities-minister-tells-4160995
In terms of the oldest political party that's an organisational question.
In terms of how parties have evolved then the answer is a lot. We are dramatically to the left of when those parties emerged in the mid-19th centuries. Hence the old Harcourt quote "We're all socialists now".
The closest you can get is possibly a similar philosophical starting point. Mill's On Liberty being the traditional Liberal ones, routed through Berlin to the modern age. So the foundation is the same even if the end point application has changed massively. That can get tenuous though.
A party that was similar to those mid-19th century ones would get smashed in short order, they were then and are now products of their era.
I suggest you await events. Then we will see what sort of a person he is.
An interesting day to say the least. I don't imagine for a moment it has finally put paid to the Conservatives' chances next May but it's preventing them projecting a positive message at the start of the Conference and that's far from helpful and with each day that goes by...
On the issue of Ed Milliband, I find some of the comments about his speech enlightening. I'm convinced the omissions of the deficit and immigration were entirely intentional. The election is still months away and now is the time to play the strong cards and say the popular messgaes.
I certainly wouldn't want to talk about my perceived areas of weakness and give my opponents months (or indeed hours) to undermine and pick apart the policy. The election campaign is the time to do this - make it late, keep it vague so to speak. As far as the economy is concerned, it seems perfectly reasonable for Labour (and indeed all other parties) to argue that since we've not heard Osborne's Budget let alone the Autumn Statement the onus is on the Government to make the proposal and for the Opposition to respond and counter.
Immigration is more difficult for Labour (and indeed all other parties except UKIP). For me, the central tenet of the immigration argument seems to me that membership of the EU and the concept of free movement of labour enshrined within the Single Market isn't working when the flow of people (or cheap labour) is so demonstrably one-sided.
BREAKING: Benefit cap to be cut to £23,000 a year in new welfare crackdown Cameron tells the Sunday Times. Interview in tomorrow's paper.
I am afraid your glasshouse is rapidly running out of panes.
You carry on believing that.
Under 21s to be banned from claiming housing benefit Cameron tells Sunday Times. After 6 months dole they have to work for benefits
For a bonus point remind us of how many Holyrood constituencies you predicted the Scottish Tories would win in 2011.
10-12 was your prediction as I remember.
Actual result was 3.
Surely the best Motorhead song was penned by Lemmie whilst he was still with Hawkwind - the original version of Motorhead is about 10% of the speed.
youtube.com/watch?v=p6OuyJKnIyU
Con 31, Lab 36, LD 6, UKIP 15
There was no point holding a Ref after Brown snuck in and already signed it, and Cameron never promised to do so.
They'll still be entitled to the full range of benefits.
Its their human rights.
You are of course quite right that if either or any party were quite similar to those mid19th century parties they would not do well, politics, parties and society have all evolved since then as is entirely correct. The question about which of today's parties can credibly claim to be the oldest party is therefore interesting to know and pretty cool for the party in question, but that got me thinking about how to know which party is closest to its roots, or which continuity parties claim to be, would also be pretty cool to know. It reminds me of religious sects arguing over which of them is closer to the original foundation of their specific faiths. If one is it need not mean it is better, but it'd be cool to know.
Crossing the floor of the House is an honourable tradition. Churchill did it twice (ratted and re-ratted). The political convention has been that you do not have to put yourself up to the electorate, as they voted for you as an individual, and most defectors claim that the new party has actually come to represent their views better than the old one.
I don't see the problem. It adds to the drama of party politics and the gaiety of the nation.
I can understand why that seems identical to the PC left.
When you are insulting, you are losing
*shrugs*
Was New Labour the spiritual successor to Old Labour? And so on and so on (or if you're feeling mischevious, are Cameron and Blair both spiritual successors to the Alliance?)
Not to mention the Tories seem very far removed from the rebellious rogues the nickname originated with. Stay true to your roots, Tories.
In many respects I don't think we are that different from those who founded the party to show their support for James VII and II, who largely opposed the Act and Treaty of Union and whose descendants included Macmillan, Whitelaw and Cameron, the One Nation Tories of which I am proud to say I am one. We neither swing to the left nor the right. We hover in the centre ground which we have occupied for more than three centuries.
But concern about immigration is at least as much about non-EU migration.
It is Cameron's fault!
I consider it to be the best backhanded compliment I've ever had. Charging for sex?
They exude a sense of privileged entitlement and really are the 'nasty party'.
For me,this policy will just carry the same old thinking ,same old nasty tories.
Who the hell is running the tories campaign/policy team,at this rate I'll ask for my money back.
Super horror stuff, well except the flying Alsatian SFX.
The latest polling by Lord Ashcroft, the life peer, shows most voters who switched from the Tories say they will consider voting for the party again next May.
Its not Thatcher as was, it the use of her invented memory to invoke something you want to promote. The loony right are as bad as the lying left,
Its a bit like saying the memory of Thatcher is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
I am a big big fan of Thatcher; of course one of her most able lieutenants in taking on the vested interests in Health Education was Ken Clarke who under Major regained control of spending and bequeathed a rapidly falling deficit. The loonys will not credit him for that.
But did she cut public sector jobs like Cameron is?
Did we see the level of job creation?
Did she ever offer a referendum on the EU?
Take NHS spending between 1980 and 1990; it went from 11 billion to 50 billion.
Has Cameron increased NHS spending 5 fold? He is working to contain it to a fraction of that and there is silence from cretins like Reckless as Labour make politics out of it.
Faced with that level of honesty from the fruity right does the nation have chance?
The Right letting the nation down again. As a supporter of the Right I think I am entitled to be angry.
Whichever way you look at it the criticism of Cameron is hysteric baloney used by people who are fundamentally cowards, bigots and cowardly bigots, exploiting dark fears for their own nefarious ends.
Just as Thatcher was not perfect neither is Cameron. None of this is the point. Europhile Miliband, who could not bring himself to talk about the deficit in public, and Labour are far worse.
"Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations. No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum."
Whilst it can be argued that the final sentence means a referendum is reliant on the treaty not being ratified, it is far from the only (and I'd say, far from the obvious) interpretation. And it can't be said that holding a referendum post-ratification was clearly unviable: the original EEC referendum had happened post-ratification after all.
If Cameron meant to make his pledge conditional on Lisbon not being ratified before he became PM he should have made that a lot more clear, and in the absence of a clear statement to that effect it seems to me far from unreasonable for people to feel let down by his pledge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyaIIXGKmsU
I'm not sure, however, that Cam is a better speaker. I think both are decent speakers.
But Ed had a bad day at the office at a very bad time.
Of course you will try to claim otherwise as you were caught out by the fact that after the event so many people came to see it as the lie it was intended to be.
The fact that you Cameroon's are still in denial about this after all this time shows just how out of touch you are.
Well worth a read
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/article1464338.ece
Its a plausible stance to take. It comes a long way second best to me, but in the main the criticism I have of them is that in govt they just want to dis their partners and milk what they can for themselves. The last 5 years are not about high sounding principles at all, its just about fiddling an angle to look good and survive.
The same level as 1997 or 2001.
There probably will be a further defection on Wednesday. But that'll probably be it. It's clear UKIP haven't been able to convince anyone else to jump ship, and the window for by-elections before the general election is rapidly closing. Any further defectors will have to either be those standing down in 2015, or those gambling on winning in the general.
Farage's strategy is clear: he wants a cadre of MPs to be able to make a watertight case for his inclusion in the debates next year. He then hopes to leverage that profile to win a dozen or so MPs in the election itself, and hold the balance of power in a hung parliament.
The trouble is that Farage won't be one of the (three max) UKIP MPs next year. He probably will get some sort of national stage, but not on a level pegging with Ed Miliband and Cameron.
I do expect him to win several MPs next year (probably 6-7 MPs) but in the key marginals it will be a straight Con-Lab fight where UKIP haven't established themselves. The data and polling above supports that: it is a close race and a choice between the lesser of two evils.
A Conservative minority government is still a strong possibility.