EV4EL wont happen. Labour will not tolerate it, or if it is somehow pushed through will not cooperate with it nor adhere to it if they win next year. Constitutional arrangement need consensus.
They quite simply cannot reject it now, IMHO. Or if they do, they'll have to come up with some good proposals of their own.
We've crossed the point of no return on England now. If EVFEL is not a consensus, then Labour risk going into the election to preserve the inequality... And I don't think that will play well for them one bit.
I think you underestimate Labour's shamelessness. Remember, from their perspective, they always hold the moral highground, and hence, the ends (ie Labour in power) justifies the means. They will scupper EV4EL
Interesting Josias. I mostly agree with that. To be fair I did mention 'the annals of history' a few posts back. On one point I'm not so sure: about 'being liked.' Ken Livingstone described it as Boris's biggest fault: the constant concern to know what people think about him. I've met Cameron and I did, indeed, find him slightly aloof. I've come to see that as a potentially massive strength.
IF you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise …
Cameron is in a different mould to most PM's we've had of recent years. I'm not sure to whom to compare him. He's much too shrewd to be likened to Eden. That he has held together the coalition whilst seeing a resurgent UK economy is quite some feat. If he doesn't win outright next year we need our collective heads seeing to. Unfortunately, there are still some rancorous malcontents on the right who lost theirs a while back. Appeasing them whilst winning the centre ground, where all general elections are won or lost, is one of Cameron's trickier tasks. But the boy is doing well. Very well.
Where to even start with this rubbish.
However Well done to Cameron, well done all.
UK Saved More powers for Scotland English votes for English laws UKIP in a strong position Even for a huge cynic like me, it's a good day.
Very good speech by Cameron this morning. Set exactly the right tone and also said all the right things. Hopefully he will be able to get this stuff through and will not end up being frustrated by the other parties.
Personally I am disappointed with the result but that is relatively easy for me as I was not directly affected, nor could I vote. Philosophically and emotionally I would have liked to see an Independent Scotland but that was not the will of the people who really mattered.
Going forward I see no practical issues with the EVEL proposals and would hope to see them enacted as soon as possible. I am not personally in favour of a separate English Parliament as I believe it is unnecessary. A simple law banning MPs sitting for Scottish seats from voting on any devolved issues would be sufficient. We could simplify it even more by devolving more powers to Scotland and tidying up some of the idiocies we were discussing last week such as University education being devolved but not University research.
Aberdeen seemed subdued this morning but I suspect that is because anyone who cared about the result was up watching and is now getting some sleep.
So you are happy that a Scottish Chancellor like Brown or a Scottish Chief Secretary like Alexander would decide the specific budget priorities for devolved English areas. As these are decided as part of the Budget they will be voted on by the UK Parliament not an English subset and be controlled by the UK Party whips
Yes. For better or worse we remain a United Kingdom and I believe that involves some element of compromise. I certainly don't believe that a separate English Parliament - yet another tier of Government - is necessary nor desirable so I whatever solution we have I would want it to remain within the current Parliamentary structure. And that includes a non elected revising upper chamber. The one change I would make there would be to have every vote there free with whips banned.
Some element of compromise? Capitulation to another cynical Westminster fix. You'll be voting Tory next.....
LOL. If you had the first idea about my political beliefs you would see how ridiculous that is.
I am interested in fewer politicians not more, doing less and doing it for their constituents not their party or themselves. Yet another tier of government is the very last thing we need in this country.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
Isn't that due to relative wealth etc? Can't you produce the same figures for different regions of England without Barnett?
Yep and the South East, Eastern, South West and East Midlands have every year since the 1970's had the lowest PESA figures.. Home nations plus London and the North East are the highest. it barely ever changes. Handy for UKIP. Disastrous for Cameron
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
Isn't that due to relative wealth etc? Can't you produce the same figures for different regions of England without Barnett?
I could but it would be utterly irrelevant as given the rules for election advertising there is no need. If you can show the figure is vaguely accurate you can use it and anything else is details which most people will either just ignore or disagree with.
Believe me, that bar chart, continually repeated (as it would be) will be election changing....
Oh and before anyone says I'm a ukip supporter, I'm still a (none member) Lib Dem for my sins...
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Interesting Josias. I mostly agree with that. To be fair I did mention 'the annals of history' a few posts back. On one point I'm not so sure: about 'being liked.' Ken Livingstone described it as Boris's biggest fault: the constant concern to know what people think about him. I've met Cameron and I did, indeed, find him slightly aloof. I've come to see that as a potentially massive strength.
IF you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise …
Cameron is in a different mould to most PM's we've had of recent years. I'm not sure to whom to compare him. He's much too shrewd to be likened to Eden. That he has held together the coalition whilst seeing a resurgent UK economy is quite some feat. If he doesn't win outright next year we need our collective heads seeing to. Unfortunately, there are still some rancorous malcontents on the right who lost theirs a while back. Appeasing them whilst winning the centre ground, where all general elections are won or lost, is one of Cameron's trickier tasks. But the boy is doing well. Very well.
I think you may be in a pretty small minority when you see "slightly aloof" as a positive quality. Most of us have got past forelock-tugging...
Mr. Twelve, to be fair, Northern Ireland is a different bag of monkeys for historical reasons.
Cameron may not mind if Labour dick about to try and deny the English any fairness whatsoever. It'd allow him to go into the election promising at least some self-governance, whereas Miliband et al. would be against it. I imagine Labour and the Lib Dems may very well collaborate on their plans to carve England into petty little political fiefdoms as an 'alternative'.
Mr. Easterross, not a Scot (as is known), but I would've thought one of the most interesting things of the campaign was that Miliband is electoral kryptonite north of the border. Even less popular than Cameron. Labour could well lose seats in 2015, which I would guess would mostly benefit the SNP.
Are the USA and Germany carved into petty little fiefdoms or is your contention that we are just not capable of doing what others manage easily?
Very good speech by Cameron this morning. Set exactly the right tone and also said all the right things. Hopefully he will be able to get this stuff through and will not end up being frustrated by the other parties.
Personally I am disappointed with the result but that is relatively easy for me as I was not directly affected, nor could I vote. Philosophically and emotionally I would have liked to see an Independent Scotland but that was not the will of the people who really mattered.
Going forward I see no practical issues with the EVEL proposals and would hope to see them enacted as soon as possible. I am not personally in favour of a separate English Parliament as I believe it is unnecessary. A simple law banning MPs sitting for Scottish seats from voting on any devolved issues would be sufficient. We could simplify it even more by devolving more powers to Scotland and tidying up some of the idiocies we were discussing last week such as University education being devolved but not University research.
Aberdeen seemed subdued this morning but I suspect that is because anyone who cared about the result was up watching and is now getting some sleep.
I pretty much agree with your 'going forward' part.
On another issue, I've always said that the important thing to me is that England and Scotland remain friends whatever the result. Now we know the union is going to remain intact for the moment, giving Scotland more powers and leaving the WLQ the same will just cause discontent.
EVEL seems a good step forwards; I am unsure what an English Parliament would do.
However: the parties have proved incapable of sorting out the relatively easy problem of HoL reform. Getting EVEL through along with further powers to Scotland (and to be fair Wales) will require a maturity that I think many politicians on all sides lack.
It'll be a blooming miracle if they do it. Vested interests will intervene, particularly for Labour.
EV4EL wont happen. Labour will not tolerate it, or if it is somehow pushed through will not cooperate with it nor adhere to it if they win next year. Constitutional arrangement need consensus.
Bullshit, even the dimmest Labourite will now see that this fox has to be shot. The question is how, and that has to be through electoral as well as constitutional reform.
EV4EL wont happen. Labour will not tolerate it, or if it is somehow pushed through will not cooperate with it nor adhere to it if they win next year. Constitutional arrangement need consensus.
They quite simply cannot reject it now, IMHO. Or if they do, they'll have to come up with some good proposals of their own.
We've crossed the point of no return on England now. If EVFEL is not a consensus, then Labour risk going into the election to preserve the inequality... And I don't think that will play well for them one bit.
I think you underestimate Labour's shamelessness. Remember, from their perspective, they always hold the moral highground, and hence, the ends (ie Labour in power) justifies the means. They will scupper EV4EL
Then they will have a big task selling that to the electorate IMHO.
I think it's likely this will be fairly high up the agenda in 2015
Surely the biggest loser was Rupert Murdoch - his press were all over the place. His influence continues to diminish helped by his own catastrophic interventions.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
Isn't that due to relative wealth etc? Can't you produce the same figures for different regions of England without Barnett?
No, it's not. It's predominantly due to Barnett. There's nowhere near as much variation in the regional figures:
North East 9,419 North West 9,252 Yorkshire and the Humber 8,610 East Midlands 8,118 West Midlands 8,498 East 7,865 London 9,435 South East 7,638 South West 8,219 England 8,529 Scotland 10,152 Wales 9,709 Northern Ireland 10,876
(Just noticed there was a type in the previous number for Scotland.) It's not to do with wealth either: Scotland has the third highest GVA per capita, after London and the South East.
FWIW Based on PB Spreadsheet data (which required a 3.6% swing to Yes)
11 Areas Swung to Yes 5 areas (Dundee, Glasgow, Orkney, Shetland, West Dumbartonshire) swung by enough Biggest swings to No: Perth & Kinross & Stirling
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
It looks like the turnips, jessies, pansies, fannies, cretins, morons prevailed after all.
Malcolm was around earlier this morning but is now stuck in an airport or airborne on his way to his holiday. He is obviously dismayed with the result, but did have the magnanimity to show his face. He suggested that he could be house-hunting whilst abroad.
I'm left wing and want an English parliament! First and foremost we are a democracy, I might not always agree with the results of elections but its the will of the people. We currently have the silly situation where the UK has devolved some powers to some nations and not others. The principle of the nations choosing their own path on certain issues is now laid in stone, so we need (finally) to lay down the constitutional framework to support that.
If large numbers of legal and budgetary issues have been devolved from the UK Parliament to national parliaments then we need to do two things. 1. Create an English parliament, and 2. Reduce the UK parliament in size. If as the Tories suggest we just have the UK dictate what England gets then you need to abolish the other parliaments as that principle works just as well everywhere.
This is beyond party politics. I'm a Labour activist and I'm calling for an English parliament that will have a substantial Tory representation if that's the will of the people. But we do need a settlement and a constitutional arrangement that's fit for the future. EV4EL is fine as a principle but ridiculous in execution within a UK parliament.
Sums up my views too. I'm basically a left liberal, but recognise we need a new constitutional settlement that works for England, if not the English regions.
Indeed. And as a 'rightie' who wants England fully and properly recognised I do accept that the Tories will not always command a majority in England. I'm 100% fine with that. The English thing is not about Labour vs Tory, it's about equality for the English.
Surely the biggest loser was Rupert Murdoch - his press were all over the place. His influence continues to diminish helped by his own catastrophic interventions.
No, it merely confirms the decline in his influence. It was the internet and phone-hacking that did for him.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Why do you think an English Parliament would be more likely to provide new roads or railways in Lincolnshire or Norfolk, or more NHS funding, than present arrangements?
Mr. Freggles, the US was constituted that way from an early stage (indeed, power has flowed from states to the federal government over time). Likewise, Germany had strong regional capitals like Stuttgart and Frankfurt long before it became a single nation.
In short, those two nations reached that stage naturally. They were not sliced up according to political pygmies but grew into their present arrangement. England is one land, it should have one Parliament. Why was Scotland not divided? Why was Wales not divided? Why must England be divided?
If it is good enough for Scotland, it is good enough for England.
Mr. Jessop, unlike Lords' reform, refusal to engage with the English could cost the parties significant numbers of votes.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Lincolnshire does have mainline trains and motorways.
Interesting Josias. I mostly agree with that. To be fair I did mention 'the annals of history' a few posts back. On one point I'm not so sure: about 'being liked.' Ken Livingstone described it as Boris's biggest fault: the constant concern to know what people think about him. I've met Cameron and I did, indeed, find him slightly aloof. I've come to see that as a potentially massive strength.
IF you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise …
Cameron is in a different mould to most PM's we've had of recent years. I'm not sure to whom to compare him. He's much too shrewd to be likened to Eden. That he has held together the coalition whilst seeing a resurgent UK economy is quite some feat. If he doesn't win outright next year we need our collective heads seeing to. Unfortunately, there are still some rancorous malcontents on the right who lost theirs a while back. Appeasing them whilst winning the centre ground, where all general elections are won or lost, is one of Cameron's trickier tasks. But the boy is doing well. Very well.
I think you may be in a pretty small minority when you see "slightly aloof" as a positive quality. Most of us have got past forelock-tugging...
I know but it's not quite that (though he does of course have some if it), it's something else, hence the Kipling poem. It's about keeping your head and staying calm, when all about (e.g. SeanT!) are losing theirs. It's like that scene at the dinner table in Carry on up the Kyber: there's something very old-fashioned British about it, and it's actually a good quality, a strength in a PM. It's statesmanlike. There's perhaps something slightly Clintonesque about Cameron.
By the way, the other person to come out of this looking like a statesman, much to my surprise, is Gordon Brown. They have both been very impressive.
Very good speech by Cameron this morning. Set exactly the right tone and also said all the right things. Hopefully he will be able to get this stuff through and will not end up being frustrated by the other parties.
Personally I am disappointed with the result but that is relatively easy for me as I was not directly affected, nor could I vote. Philosophically and emotionally I would have liked to see an Independent Scotland but that was not the will of the people who really mattered.
Going forward I see no practical issues with the EVEL proposals and would hope to see them enacted as soon as possible. I am not personally in favour of a separate English Parliament as I believe it is unnecessary. A simple law banning MPs sitting for Scottish seats from voting on any devolved issues would be sufficient. We could simplify it even more by devolving more powers to Scotland and tidying up some of the idiocies we were discussing last week such as University education being devolved but not University research.
Aberdeen seemed subdued this morning but I suspect that is because anyone who cared about the result was up watching and is now getting some sleep.
He seemed very prime-ministerish. Very impressed, felt we were in good hands.
He now needs to take that "safe pair of hands, grown-upness" and go on the front foot a bit more often.
And incidentally, Cam's speech, demeanour, attitude, balance, poise, is one reason why Boris will never be leader of the Cons or PM.
Mr. Twelve, to be fair, Northern Ireland is a different bag of monkeys for historical reasons.
Cameron may not mind if Labour dick about to try and deny the English any fairness whatsoever. It'd allow him to go into the election promising at least some self-governance, whereas Miliband et al. would be against it. I imagine Labour and the Lib Dems may very well collaborate on their plans to carve England into petty little political fiefdoms as an 'alternative'.
Mr. Easterross, not a Scot (as is known), but I would've thought one of the most interesting things of the campaign was that Miliband is electoral kryptonite north of the border. Even less popular than Cameron. Labour could well lose seats in 2015, which I would guess would mostly benefit the SNP.
Are the USA and Germany carved into petty little fiefdoms or is your contention that we are just not capable of doing what others manage easily?
These things take time. With the exception of that inferior braggard county Yorkshire, Cornwall and perhaps Northumberland, I'd say there are few regions who people in England feel connected to. For instance I was born in Derbyshire, and never thought of myself as a Midlander. Likewise, I don't meet many Angles here in Cambridgeshire.
People are connected to their counties; in the case of historic counties, some are very connected. I'd say EVEL and more powers for localise decisions to councils would be the way forwards.
The situation in Germany and USA is very different, and the structures have been in place much longer.
Good morning all and now that Highland has declared for NO, I can confirm my relief at being proved wrong.
Some lessons: 1) I would never have thought that if Glasgow and North Lanarkshire voted YES, the rest of Scotland would so decisively outweigh them. 2) Gordon Brown's intervention failed to deliver. The 2 largest and safest Scottish Labour bastions voted YES 3) Alistair Darling, Jim Murphy and Ruth Davidson played a blinder 4) Interesting prospects for the GE next year. The areas dominated by the SNP where the Tories came second decisively voted NO. Moray, Angus, Perth and Kinross 5) The South of Scotland really is a Coalition bastion. How will the dynamic play out in the Tory v LibDem battlegrounds in Scotland 6) Edinburgh overwhelmingly NO. Who is that good for next year? 7) Will Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown now announce their retirement from Westminster next year 8) Will David Cameron's pledge of English votes for English decisions have an effect on the Tory v UKIP battlegrounds?
I hope you all made shedloads of money. Shadsy will be a happy chappy.
I hope no one has beaten me, I had 55.15 NO 44.85 YES t/o 86.32 I could do with M Smithson advising me on placing some winning bets for my charity LUPUS UK ..
I fear I had 55-49 or 56-44. Can anybody point me to the prediction site from earlier in the week so I can check what my prediction was?
EV4EL wont happen. Labour will not tolerate it, or if it is somehow pushed through will not cooperate with it nor adhere to it if they win next year. Constitutional arrangement need consensus.
They quite simply cannot reject it now, IMHO. Or if they do, they'll have to come up with some good proposals of their own.
We've crossed the point of no return on England now. If EVFEL is not a consensus, then Labour risk going into the election to preserve the inequality... And I don't think that will play well for them one bit.
I think you underestimate Labour's shamelessness. Remember, from their perspective, they always hold the moral highground, and hence, the ends (ie Labour in power) justifies the means. They will scupper EV4EL
Then they will have a big task selling that to the electorate IMHO.
I think it's likely this will be fairly high up the agenda in 2015
I very much hope you are right. I think they will block, obfuscate, waffle on about some vague worthless regional devolution and bet that the parlt next year will be sufficient to block EV4EL, and it probably will be.
However much we are fussed, many people arent and the media will not lead interviews or press Labour on this as it suggests a lack of "community cohesion" with the beloved Scotland
Andrew Neil@afneil·20 mins Has Ed Miliband said anything yet about his side winning?
Andrew Neil@afneil·35 mins If you see a Labour shadow cabinet member in vicinity of Westminster please direct them to College Green. We can't find one to interview
I made the point earlier that if people want to be properly represented, then they need to start asking for proportional representation. Yes I know AV was declined in a referendum, but that was the only choice on the table.
At some point even Tories might see that some form of PR is going be better than long periods in opposition or having to go into coalition with the Lib Dems. Moving to PR might give the Tories the opportunity of forming coalitions with UKIP.
I think Cameron has painted Labour into a corner beautifully on EVEL now. Cameron could unilaterally introduce it before next May, even if the LDs don't like it either, and make GE2015 a vote on the issue - and force EdM to either back it or go round every seat in England and argue for Scottish MPs (from a home nation soon to have almost total domestic home rule) to be able to push through laws affecting England alone. Good luck to Ed on that.
People (usually Labour MPs) say it would lead to constitutional meltdown if a Labour UK Government couldn't get England only legislation through the Commons without its Welsh and Scottish MPs, but surely the simple answer is that if Ed wins a UK majority but is far short in England, then he has to form a coalition if he wants to govern in England. Or if the Tories can still outvote him on English affairs, then he will have to negotiate and compromise on his English only programme in order to get the approval of a majority of English MPs.
Cameron didn't get a majority in the UK last time, but has managed to govern for 5 years by going into coalition and compromising on policy. What would be the difference?
It doesn't need a separate "English Cabinet" or separate England-only departments. I can't see why a Labour Home Secretary couldn't govern in a Tory-majority England - he or she would just have to build alliances and compromise on his programme to ensure it met the will of the English MPs.
Is it any different from having a Democrat US President compromising with a Republican Senate to get his programme through (or not)?
It's called democracy. And it's the way things will work in the New UK.
Mr. Twelve, to be fair, Northern Ireland is a different bag of monkeys for historical reasons.
Cameron may not mind if Labour dick about to try and deny the English any fairness whatsoever. It'd allow him to go into the election promising at least some self-governance, whereas Miliband et al. would be against it. I imagine Labour and the Lib Dems may very well collaborate on their plans to carve England into petty little political fiefdoms as an 'alternative'.
Mr. Easterross, not a Scot (as is known), but I would've thought one of the most interesting things of the campaign was that Miliband is electoral kryptonite north of the border. Even less popular than Cameron. Labour could well lose seats in 2015, which I would guess would mostly benefit the SNP.
Are the USA and Germany carved into petty little fiefdoms or is your contention that we are just not capable of doing what others manage easily?
These things take time. With the exception of that inferior braggard county Yorkshire, Cornwall and perhaps Northumberland, I'd say there are few regions who people in England feel connected to. For instance I was born in Derbyshire, and never thought of myself as a Midlander. Likewise, I don't meet many Angles here in Cambridgeshire.
People are connected to their counties; in the case of historic counties, some are very connected. I'd say EVEL and more powers for localise decisions to councils would be the way forwards.
The situation in Germany and USA is very different, and the structures have been in place much longer.
People's connections to their counties vary enormously though. I don't know many people from Bedfordshire or Northamptonshire or Berkshire who feel a particularly strong identity to the place. Most would just be English and British.
Its great to see the UKIPpers panicking a bit this morning. Cameron is managing to gain some ground back from them. Its all about incremental gains which will see Cameron come through next May.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Lincolnshire does have mainline trains and motorways.
So does East Anglia: Norwich has very good electrified services to London.
Lincoln city's rail services aren't very good, though IME. Lincolnshire's railways as a whole are a mess: Gainsborough being a particularly egregious example.
EV4EL wont happen. Labour will not tolerate it, or if it is somehow pushed through will not cooperate with it nor adhere to it if they win next year. Constitutional arrangement need consensus.
They quite simply cannot reject it now, IMHO. Or if they do, they'll have to come up with some good proposals of their own.
We've crossed the point of no return on England now. If EVFEL is not a consensus, then Labour risk going into the election to preserve the inequality... And I don't think that will play well for them one bit.
I think you underestimate Labour's shamelessness. Remember, from their perspective, they always hold the moral highground, and hence, the ends (ie Labour in power) justifies the means. They will scupper EV4EL
Then they will have a big task selling that to the electorate IMHO.
I think it's likely this will be fairly high up the agenda in 2015
I very much doubt it. After the 2015 election, UKIP will be a busted flush: before the election, the Conservatives will be out to destroy them and not form an alliance.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Lincolnshire does have mainline trains and motorways.
You mean the M180, perhaps the A1M and the East Coast Main Line that stops at Grantham? Thats hardly serving the whole of Lincolnshire but I'll give you the technical point. I imagine Scotland is just as well served.
Interesting Josias. I mostly agree with that. To be fair I did mention 'the annals of history' a few posts back. On one point I'm not so sure: about 'being liked.' Ken Livingstone described it as Boris's biggest fault: the constant concern to know what people think about him. I've met Cameron and I did, indeed, find him slightly aloof. I've come to see that as a potentially massive strength.
IF you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise …
Cameron is in a different mould to most PM's we've had of recent years. I'm not sure to whom to compare him. He's much too shrewd to be likened to Eden. That he has held together the coalition whilst seeing a resurgent UK economy is quite some feat. If he doesn't win outright next year we need our collective heads seeing to. Unfortunately, there are still some rancorous malcontents on the right who lost theirs a while back. Appeasing them whilst winning the centre ground, where all general elections are won or lost, is one of Cameron's trickier tasks. But the boy is doing well. Very well.
I think you may be in a pretty small minority when you see "slightly aloof" as a positive quality. Most of us have got past forelock-tugging...
I know but it's not quite that (though he does of course have some if it), it's something else, hence the Kipling poem. It's about keeping your head and staying calm, when all about (e.g. SeanT!) are losing theirs. It's like that scene at the dinner table in Carry on up the Kyber: there's something very old-fashioned British about it, and it's actually a good quality, a strength in a PM. It's statesmanlike. There's perhaps something slightly Clintonesque about Cameron.
By the way, the other person to come out of this looking like a statesman, much to my surprise, is Gordon Brown. They have both been very impressive.
The IF--- poem specifically mentions the ability to talk with crowds. That's not aloofness. Steadiness in times of stress isn't the same as aloofness.
Mr. Twelve, to be fair, Northern Ireland is a different bag of monkeys for historical reasons.
Cameron may not mind if Labour dick about to try and deny the English any fairness whatsoever. It'd allow him to go into the election promising at least some self-governance, whereas Miliband et al. would be against it. I imagine Labour and the Lib Dems may very well collaborate on their plans to carve England into petty little political fiefdoms as an 'alternative'.
Mr. Easterross, not a Scot (as is known), but I would've thought one of the most interesting things of the campaign was that Miliband is electoral kryptonite north of the border. Even less popular than Cameron. Labour could well lose seats in 2015, which I would guess would mostly benefit the SNP.
Are the USA and Germany carved into petty little fiefdoms or is your contention that we are just not capable of doing what others manage easily?
These things take time. With the exception of that inferior braggard county Yorkshire, Cornwall and perhaps Northumberland, I'd say there are few regions who people in England feel connected to. For instance I was born in Derbyshire, and never thought of myself as a Midlander. Likewise, I don't meet many Angles here in Cambridgeshire.
People are connected to their counties; in the case of historic counties, some are very connected. I'd say EVEL and more powers for localise decisions to councils would be the way forwards.
The situation in Germany and USA is very different, and the structures have been in place much longer.
People's connections to their counties vary enormously though. I don't know many people from Bedfordshire or Northamptonshire or Berkshire who feel a particularly strong identity to the place. Most would just be English and British.
True enough in the case of Bedfordshire and Berkshire, but a mate of mine was proud to be a Northamptonshire man, for some unknown reason that utterly baffles me.
I had one man complain vigorously about my website not including 'Avon' as a county.
But surely these links to counties are stronger than the regional links?
Andrew Neil@afneil·20 mins Has Ed Miliband said anything yet about his side winning?
That is probably due to EVFEL being discussed. He may be thinking about how he can make a speech that does not mention England, but talks instead about UK devolution issues that need to be discussed between all interested parties.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Lincolnshire does have mainline trains and motorways.
London - Grantham 108 minutes.
Edit: gah 1hr 8 mins - it gets better and better...
Mr. Twelve, to be fair, Northern Ireland is a different bag of monkeys for historical reasons.
Cameron may not mind if Labour dick about to try and deny the English any fairness whatsoever. It'd allow him to go into the election promising at least some self-governance, whereas Miliband et al. would be against it. I imagine Labour and the Lib Dems may very well collaborate on their plans to carve England into petty little political fiefdoms as an 'alternative'.
Mr. Easterross, not a Scot (as is known), but I would've thought one of the most interesting things of the campaign was that Miliband is electoral kryptonite north of the border. Even less popular than Cameron. Labour could well lose seats in 2015, which I would guess would mostly benefit the SNP.
Are the USA and Germany carved into petty little fiefdoms or is your contention that we are just not capable of doing what others manage easily?
These things take time. With the exception of that inferior braggard county Yorkshire, Cornwall and perhaps Northumberland, I'd say there are few regions who people in England feel connected to. For instance I was born in Derbyshire, and never thought of myself as a Midlander. Likewise, I don't meet many Angles here in Cambridgeshire.
People are connected to their counties; in the case of historic counties, some are very connected. I'd say EVEL and more powers for localise decisions to councils would be the way forwards.
The situation in Germany and USA is very different, and the structures have been in place much longer.
People's connections to their counties vary enormously though. I don't know many people from Bedfordshire or Northamptonshire or Berkshire who feel a particularly strong identity to the place. Most would just be English and British.
Norfolk Anglian, English, British Heptarchy is your friend
The tories need to go hard and fast on this English Settlement. It's their only chance of a game changer, and has the beauty of attacking both Labour and UKIP on the same ground.
If Labour seek to delay or block it, use as a massive baseball bat to hit them every single time on it.
Mr. Twelve, to be fair, Northern Ireland is a different bag of monkeys for historical reasons.
Cameron may not mind if Labour dick about to try and deny the English any fairness whatsoever. It'd allow him to go into the election promising at least some self-governance, whereas Miliband et al. would be against it. I imagine Labour and the Lib Dems may very well collaborate on their plans to carve England into petty little political fiefdoms as an 'alternative'.
Mr. Easterross, not a Scot (as is known), but I would've thought one of the most interesting things of the campaign was that Miliband is electoral kryptonite north of the border. Even less popular than Cameron. Labour could well lose seats in 2015, which I would guess would mostly benefit the SNP.
Are the USA and Germany carved into petty little fiefdoms or is your contention that we are just not capable of doing what others manage easily?
These things take time. With the exception of that inferior braggard county Yorkshire, Cornwall and perhaps Northumberland, I'd say there are few regions who people in England feel connected to. For instance I was born in Derbyshire, and never thought of myself as a Midlander. Likewise, I don't meet many Angles here in Cambridgeshire.
People are connected to their counties; in the case of historic counties, some are very connected. I'd say EVEL and more powers for localise decisions to councils would be the way forwards.
The situation in Germany and USA is very different, and the structures have been in place much longer.
People's connections to their counties vary enormously though. I don't know many people from Bedfordshire or Northamptonshire or Berkshire who feel a particularly strong identity to the place. Most would just be English and British.
True enough in the case of Bedfordshire and Berkshire, but a mate of mine was proud to be a Northamptonshire man, for some unknown reason that utterly baffles me.
I had one man complain vigorously about my website not including 'Avon' as a county.
But surely these links to counties are stronger than the regional links?
Stronger than the official regions, yes. But I would say it's probably weaker than terms like "the Home Counties" or "the South East" (obviously excluding Northamptonshire).
I made the point earlier that if people want to be properly represented, then they need to start asking for proportional representation. Yes I know AV was declined in a referendum, but that was the only choice on the table.
At some point even Tories might see that some form of PR is going be better than long periods in opposition or having to go into coalition with the Lib Dems. Moving to PR might give the Tories the opportunity of forming coalitions with UKIP.
My gut feeling is that PR would probably see all three major parties split to some extent. How these groups then interact with both each other and the larger minor parties would be another question.
Mr. Twelve, to be fair, Northern Ireland is a different bag of monkeys for historical reasons.
Cameron may not mind if Labour dick about to try and deny the English any fairness whatsoever. It'd allow him to go into the election promising at least some self-governance, whereas Miliband et al. would be against it. I imagine Labour and the Lib Dems may very well collaborate on their plans to carve England into petty little political fiefdoms as an 'alternative'.
Mr. Easterross, not a Scot (as is known), but I would've thought one of the most interesting things of the campaign was that Miliband is electoral kryptonite north of the border. Even less popular than Cameron. Labour could well lose seats in 2015, which I would guess would mostly benefit the SNP.
Are the USA and Germany carved into petty little fiefdoms or is your contention that we are just not capable of doing what others manage easily?
These things take time. With the exception of that inferior braggard county Yorkshire, Cornwall and perhaps Northumberland, I'd say there are few regions who people in England feel connected to. For instance I was born in Derbyshire, and never thought of myself as a Midlander. Likewise, I don't meet many Angles here in Cambridgeshire.
People are connected to their counties; in the case of historic counties, some are very connected. I'd say EVEL and more powers for localise decisions to councils would be the way forwards.
The situation in Germany and USA is very different, and the structures have been in place much longer.
People's connections to their counties vary enormously though. I don't know many people from Bedfordshire or Northamptonshire or Berkshire who feel a particularly strong identity to the place. Most would just be English and British.
Berkshire is interesting because the county council was abolished there some time ago in favour of unitary district councils.
However my sense is that the people there look quite closely to London and feel affinity for London and the south-east distinct from their identity to England as a whole.
... and while I was against AV and I'm still for having some form of constituency representation, the current iteration of FPTP needs something done to it. tim, ex of this parish, suggested having larger, multi-member constituencies, elected on PR.
Interesting Josias. I mostly agree with that. To be fair I did mention 'the annals of history' a few posts back. On one point I'm not so sure: about 'being liked.' Ken Livingstone described it as Boris's biggest fault: the constant concern to know what people think about him. I've met Cameron and I did, indeed, find him slightly aloof. I've come to see that as a potentially massive strength.
IF you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise …
Cameron is in a different mould to most PM's we've had of recent years. I'm not sure to whom to compare him. He's much too shrewd to be likened to Eden. That he has held together the coalition whilst seeing a resurgent UK economy is quite some feat. If he doesn't win outright next year we need our collective heads seeing to. Unfortunately, there are still some rancorous malcontents on the right who lost theirs a while back. Appeasing them whilst winning the centre ground, where all general elections are won or lost, is one of Cameron's trickier tasks. But the boy is doing well. Very well.
I think you may be in a pretty small minority when you see "slightly aloof" as a positive quality. Most of us have got past forelock-tugging...
I know but it's not quite that (though he does of course have some if it), it's something else, hence the Kipling poem. It's about keeping your head and staying calm, when all about (e.g. SeanT!) are losing theirs. It's like that scene at the dinner table in Carry on up the Kyber: there's something very old-fashioned British about it, and it's actually a good quality, a strength in a PM. It's statesmanlike. There's perhaps something slightly Clintonesque about Cameron.
By the way, the other person to come out of this looking like a statesman, much to my surprise, is Gordon Brown. They have both been very impressive.
Audreyanne, with you all the way this morning and you even quote my favourite film scene of all time. 'i'm feeling a little plastered!' I would love to have heard him echo Sir Sidney Rough-Diamond with the classic riposte to you know who '....and Up Yours!'
It's a hilariously Pyrrhic victory for EdM. He's less popular in Scotland than Gordon and Cameron, he's about to lose the influence of his Scottish MPs with EV4EL and yet we're still in the Union - but no one associates it with him!
It'd be hard to come up with a more satisfying result. That he scuttled away from a shopping centre after a bit of boisterous heckling just made him look like a scared schoolboy.
Andrew Neil@afneil·20 mins Has Ed Miliband said anything yet about his side winning?
Andrew Neil@afneil·35 mins If you see a Labour shadow cabinet member in vicinity of Westminster please direct them to College Green. We can't find one to interview
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Lincolnshire does have mainline trains and motorways.
As does East Anglia have trains into a place called, I think, London. Don't know if that is where people want to go, but it is where the trains end up. Ipswich has reasonable road access, Norwich is work in progress, and I admit I don't know what the plans are for improvements.
Adenbrookes in Cambridge gives some pretty good cancer care to East Anglia, when my late brother was there a couple of years ago, the budgets were ignored and the drugs prescribed.
Students now have a better settlement than those who attended Uni before the 2010 changes, lower repayments, higher thresholds before repayment kicks in and write off of outstanding debt at a given point in time.
There are problems, there are solutions. Some are real some are imagined.
I hope no one has beaten me, I had 55.15 NO 44.85 YES t/o 86.32 I could do with M Smithson advising me on placing some winning bets for my charity LUPUS UK ..
I fear I had 55-49 or 56-44. Can anybody point me to the prediction site from earlier in the week so I can check what my prediction was?
My predicton was YES 44.65% and turnout 84%, so I think I will be close.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Lincolnshire does have mainline trains and motorways.
London - Grantham 108 minutes.
Edit: gah 1hr 8 mins - it gets better and better...
Morning all. After a 22 hour day yesterday I am still a bit shattered but jubilant. My son has screen shot the TV and sent it to is pals on instagram with the single word "domination". Slightly to my surprise (and the incompetence of Yougov) it really wasn't that close after all although we will now no doubt immediately start pretending that it was.
I agree with antifrank's comment downthread (generally a smart thing to do) that it is vanishingly unlikely that this will not spill into further elections. Labour have their work cut out to hold Dundee West and some of their Glasgow and Lanarkshire seats. A significant number of their supporters are going to feel sore and alienated after this.
Areas that were tory in the past but have been voting SNP for yonks in Angus, Perthshire, Aberdeenshire and the borders have remembered who they are. Dozens of BT activists there give them a potential base of younger, more active members. The tories have a real opportunity to become a player in Scottish affairs again and this would do more to heal the Union than anything else I could imagine. Ruth Davidson has been one of the stars of the campaign and is the right leader to help them achieve this.
My expectation is that Salmond will stay a few months but will be gone by the end of the year so Sturgeon can bed herself in as FM for the next Scottish elections. She is highly competent and forceful but she has little of Salmond's guile and charisma. The SNP will miss him.
The turnout was spectacular. Thousands of Scots who have found very little to enthuse themselves about in party politics have either become activists for the first time or after a long time. Scotland needs to find more productive things to care about and to utilise this incredible energy. This was one of the biggest moments in democracy in UK history and shattered though I am I am really proud to have played a small part in it. Scotland itself can be proud of what it achieved.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Why do you think an English Parliament would be more likely to provide new roads or railways in Lincolnshire or Norfolk, or more NHS funding, than present arrangements?
As you are probably aware that was not the subject at debate. It was regarding Cameron's continuation of the Barnett formula which ensures Scotland receives more in public spending per capita than large parts of England and provides them luxuries of free prescriptions for all and free university education for everyone except the English. Do you not find it ironic that our kids have to pay out £9,000 whilst we subsidise Scotland's Tuition fees?
Interesting Josias. I mostly agree with that. To be fair I did mention 'the annals of history' a few posts back. On one point I'm not so sure: about 'being liked.' Ken Livingstone described it as Boris's biggest fault: the constant concern to know what people think about him. I've met Cameron and I did, indeed, find him slightly aloof. I've come to see that as a potentially massive strength.
IF you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise …
Cameron is in a different mould to most PM's we've had of recent years. I'm not sure to whom to compare him. He's much too shrewd to be likened to Eden. That he has held together the coalition whilst seeing a resurgent UK economy is quite some feat. If he doesn't win outright next year we need our collective heads seeing to. Unfortunately, there are still some rancorous malcontents on the right who lost theirs a while back. Appeasing them whilst winning the centre ground, where all general elections are won or lost, is one of Cameron's trickier tasks. But the boy is doing well. Very well.
I think you may be in a pretty small minority when you see "slightly aloof" as a positive quality. Most of us have got past forelock-tugging...
I know but it's not quite that (though he does of course have some if it), it's something else, hence the Kipling poem. It's about keeping your head and staying calm, when all about (e.g. SeanT!) are losing theirs. It's like that scene at the dinner table in Carry on up the Kyber: there's something very old-fashioned British about it, and it's actually a good quality, a strength in a PM. It's statesmanlike. There's perhaps something slightly Clintonesque about Cameron.
By the way, the other person to come out of this looking like a statesman, much to my surprise, is Gordon Brown. They have both been very impressive.
Audreyanne, with you all the way this morning and you even quote my favourite film scene of all time. 'i'm feeling a little plastered!' I would love to have heard him echo Sir Sidney Rough-Diamond with the classic riposte to you know who '....and Up Yours!'
Mr. Twelve, to be fair, Northern Ireland is a different bag of monkeys for historical reasons.
Cameron may not mind if Labour dick about to try and deny the English any fairness whatsoever. It'd allow him to go into the election promising at least some self-governance, whereas Miliband et al. would be against it. I imagine Labour and the Lib Dems may very well collaborate on their plans to carve England into petty little political fiefdoms as an 'alternative'.
Mr. Easterross, not a Scot (as is known), but I would've thought one of the most interesting things of the campaign was that Miliband is electoral kryptonite north of the border. Even less popular than Cameron. Labour could well lose seats in 2015, which I would guess would mostly benefit the SNP.
Are the USA and Germany carved into petty little fiefdoms or is your contention that we are just not capable of doing what others manage easily?
These things take time. With the exception of that inferior braggard county Yorkshire, Cornwall and perhaps Northumberland, I'd say there are few regions who people in England feel connected to. For instance I was born in Derbyshire, and never thought of myself as a Midlander. Likewise, I don't meet many Angles here in Cambridgeshire.
People are connected to their counties; in the case of historic counties, some are very connected. I'd say EVEL and more powers for localise decisions to councils would be the way forwards.
The situation in Germany and USA is very different, and the structures have been in place much longer.
People's connections to their counties vary enormously though. I don't know many people from Bedfordshire or Northamptonshire or Berkshire who feel a particularly strong identity to the place. Most would just be English and British.
True enough in the case of Bedfordshire and Berkshire, but a mate of mine was proud to be a Northamptonshire man, for some unknown reason that utterly baffles me.
I had one man complain vigorously about my website not including 'Avon' as a county.
But surely these links to counties are stronger than the regional links?
Stronger than the official regions, yes. But I would say it's probably weaker than terms like "the Home Counties" or "the South East" (obviously excluding Northamptonshire).
I'm not sure; there must be some polling on this somewhere.
I certainly feel connected to my home county. But then I'm from Derbyshire, a county that it's easy to be proud of. Unlike Yorkshire... ;-)
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Lincolnshire does have mainline trains and motorways.
As does East Anglia have trains into a place called, I think, London. Don't know if that is where people want to go, but it is where the trains end up. Ipswich has reasonable road access, Norwich is work in progress, and I admit I don't know what the plans are for improvements.
Adenbrookes in Cambridge gives some pretty good cancer care to East Anglia, when my late brother was there a couple of years ago, the budgets were ignored and the drugs prescribed.
Students now have a better settlement than those who attended Uni before the 2010 changes, lower repayments, higher thresholds before repayment kicks in and write off of outstanding debt at a given point in time.
There are problems, there are solutions. Some are real some are imagined.
Norwich road infrastructure planning is centred on two issues (once the A11 Elveden bypass completes this year) Dualling of the A47 Norwich Northern Distributor Road
Miss Plato, shade unfair on old Pyrrhus, who was a very competent general, king six times (of three places twice...) and known to be very loyal to those close to him.
I wonder if Miliband will hide for as long as he did over Rotherham (not sure he's actually emerged from that, technically. Has he made a statement beyond a tweet about it?).
Andrew Neil@afneil·20 mins Has Ed Miliband said anything yet about his side winning?
Andrew Neil@afneil·35 mins If you see a Labour shadow cabinet member in vicinity of Westminster please direct them to College Green. We can't find one to interview
Too bleeding obvious to have lined one up in advance?
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Lincolnshire does have mainline trains and motorways.
As does East Anglia have trains into a place called, I think, London. Don't know if that is where people want to go, but it is where the trains end up. Ipswich has reasonable road access, Norwich is work in progress, and I admit I don't know what the plans are for improvements.
Adenbrookes in Cambridge gives some pretty good cancer care to East Anglia, when my late brother was there a couple of years ago, the budgets were ignored and the drugs prescribed.
Students now have a better settlement than those who attended Uni before the 2010 changes, lower repayments, higher thresholds before repayment kicks in and write off of outstanding debt at a given point in time.
There are problems, there are solutions. Some are real some are imagined.
And some are dealt far quicker because they have had preferential funding for 40 years!
Its great to see the UKIPpers panicking a bit this morning. Cameron is managing to gain some ground back from them. Its all about incremental gains which will see Cameron come through next May.
I certainly don't see any UKIP panic. I see a good bit of celebration that things are moving in their direction. But I also see an acceptance that politicians you might disagree with can sometimes perform very well. Both Brown and Cameron come under that heading at the moment.
Miss Plato, shade unfair on old Pyrrhus, who was a very competent general, king six times (of three places twice...) and known to be very loyal to those close to him.
I wonder if Miliband will hide for as long as he did over Rotherham (not sure he's actually emerged from that, technically. Has he made a statement beyond a tweet about it?).
I think he wrote a 2 paragraph comment in the Doncaster Daily, inbetween the Dog bites man and Woman has knitting stolen story...
I do hope so @DavidL - if Cameron and all the footsoldiers from BetterTogether have galvanised the Scottish Tory vote for GE2015 - what a result that would be.
Labour have their work cut out to hold Dundee West and some of their Glasgow and Lanarkshire seats. A significant number of their supporters are going to feel sore and alienated after this.
Areas that were tory in the past but have been voting SNP for yonks in Angus, Perthshire, Aberdeenshire and the borders have remembered who they are. Dozens of BT activists there give them a potential base of younger, more active members. The tories have a real opportunity to become a player in Scottish affairs again and this would do more to heal the Union than anything else I could imagine. Ruth Davidson has been one of the stars of the campaign and is the right leader to help them achieve this.
My expectation is that Salmond will stay a few months but will be gone by the end of the year so Sturgeon can bed herself in as FM for the next Scottish elections. She is highly competent and forceful but she has little of Salmond's guile and charisma. The SNP will miss him.
Thank you to hucks67 for his reply. Now all I need is the link to the prediction site we all placed our predictions on. Has anybody got that link, please?
I hope no one has beaten me, I had 55.15 NO 44.85 YES t/o 86.32 I could do with M Smithson advising me on placing some winning bets for my charity LUPUS UK ..
I fear I had 55-49 or 56-44. Can anybody point me to the prediction site from earlier in the week so I can check what my prediction was?
My predicton was YES 44.65% and turnout 84%, so I think I will be close.
I made the point earlier that if people want to be properly represented, then they need to start asking for proportional representation. Yes I know AV was declined in a referendum, but that was the only choice on the table.
At some point even Tories might see that some form of PR is going be better than long periods in opposition or having to go into coalition with the Lib Dems. Moving to PR might give the Tories the opportunity of forming coalitions with UKIP.
My gut feeling is that PR would probably see all three major parties split to some extent. How these groups then interact with both each other and the larger minor parties would be another question.
There was an article on this site that presented the argument that the Tories should be in favour of PR for the reasons I gave earlier. FPTP really on works when you have two main parties. We now have four parties who will win 10% or more. The party that wins most votes, may not get anywhere near 40%, as they have in the past. Labour could sneek a majority with 35% of the vote and then the Tories might start to think about electoral reform.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Lincolnshire does have mainline trains and motorways.
London - Grantham 108 minutes.
Edit: gah 1hr 8 mins - it gets better and better...
People's connections to their counties vary enormously though. I don't know many people from Bedfordshire or Northamptonshire or Berkshire who feel a particularly strong identity to the place. Most would just be English and British.
Berkshire is interesting because the county council was abolished there some time ago in favour of unitary district councils.
However my sense is that the people there look quite closely to London and feel affinity for London and the south-east distinct from their identity to England as a whole.
I'm originally from Reading, with mates and family there, and the general take is "it's a bit meh but it's ours". But equally, there's not that much affinity from London, really.
We are most definitely not 'plastic cockneys', which seems to be the football fans insult of choice.
The Berkshire/Reading accent is fascinating. In my family, my grandparents sounded like Pam Ayres.
I do hope so @DavidL - if Cameron and all the footsoldiers from BetterTogether have galvanised the Scottish Tory vote for GE2015 - what a result that would be.
Labour have their work cut out to hold Dundee West and some of their Glasgow and Lanarkshire seats. A significant number of their supporters are going to feel sore and alienated after this.
Areas that were tory in the past but have been voting SNP for yonks in Angus, Perthshire, Aberdeenshire and the borders have remembered who they are. Dozens of BT activists there give them a potential base of younger, more active members. The tories have a real opportunity to become a player in Scottish affairs again and this would do more to heal the Union than anything else I could imagine. Ruth Davidson has been one of the stars of the campaign and is the right leader to help them achieve this.
My expectation is that Salmond will stay a few months but will be gone by the end of the year so Sturgeon can bed herself in as FM for the next Scottish elections. She is highly competent and forceful but she has little of Salmond's guile and charisma. The SNP will miss him.
Time to wheel out my outside bet for 2015.... Con GAIN Banff and Buchan
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Lincolnshire does have mainline trains and motorways.
London - Grantham 108 minutes.
Edit: gah 1hr 8 mins - it gets better and better...
Thank you to hucks67 for his reply. Now all I need is the link to the prediction site we all placed our predictions on. Has anybody got that link, please?
I hope no one has beaten me, I had 55.15 NO 44.85 YES t/o 86.32 I could do with M Smithson advising me on placing some winning bets for my charity LUPUS UK ..
I fear I had 55-49 or 56-44. Can anybody point me to the prediction site from earlier in the week so I can check what my prediction was?
My predicton was YES 44.65% and turnout 84%, so I think I will be close.
Farage on ITV goes after Barnett. EVfEL is a 'first step'. Needs English Parliament and needs constitutional convention England rotten deal currently. Cameron panicking over English Question Hague coming up with solution in committee in few weeks not suitable.
Barnett is an incredibly easy attack. Regardless of what parties argue as Socrates states the simple figures are:-
England: £8,529 Scotland: £10,512
vote UKIP and we will change that. The 3 parties have royally screwed up there...
There is no moral mileage in attacking this. It is the first step in English Nationalism, and as I have said before, Nationalism is rooted in negative (to my view) emotions of greed, jealousy and other contemptible emotions that lead to a lack of judgement, disassociation with the truth and ultimately violence. Be Patriotic by all means, but avoid Nationalism.
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
Tell that to cancer patients in Lincolnshire or East Anglia (that have no mainline trains and no no motorways) who are told their treatment is too expensive by NICE while Fred Goodwin gets his free prescriptions or tell that to parents of students who have got in debt up to their eyeballs in order to get a degree when Brussels bureaucrats can send their kids to Scotland to get a free University education. They won't give a toss what road they are on!
Why do you think an English Parliament would be more likely to provide new roads or railways in Lincolnshire or Norfolk, or more NHS funding, than present arrangements?
As you are probably aware that was not the subject at debate. It was regarding Cameron's continuation of the Barnett formula which ensures Scotland receives more in public spending per capita than large parts of England and provides them luxuries of free prescriptions for all and free university education for everyone except the English. Do you not find it ironic that our kids have to pay out £9,000 whilst we subsidise Scotland's Tuition fees?
If it wasn't "the subject of debate" why did you mention it? And FWIW I find many things ironic. Why single this one out from all the others?
I made the point earlier that if people want to be properly represented, then they need to start asking for proportional representation. Yes I know AV was declined in a referendum, but that was the only choice on the table.
At some point even Tories might see that some form of PR is going be better than long periods in opposition or having to go into coalition with the Lib Dems. Moving to PR might give the Tories the opportunity of forming coalitions with UKIP.
My gut feeling is that PR would probably see all three major parties split to some extent. How these groups then interact with both each other and the larger minor parties would be another question.
There was an article on this site that presented the argument that the Tories should be in favour of PR for the reasons I gave earlier. FPTP really on works when you have two main parties. We now have four parties who will win 10% or more. The party that wins most votes, may not get anywhere near 40%, as they have in the past. Labour could sneek a majority with 35% of the vote and then the Tories might start to think about electoral reform.
I agree with both point and reasoning.
BUT
Call me old-fashioned, but I'd really rather they made the decision based on something less shallow that short term political goals. They should be thinking about it now.
I suppose we should really expect it of the Tories. After all they sold the UK out to Europe based on a lie. Now they are selling England out on another one!
Mr. M, wasn't the YouGov poll (final one) very close to the final result?
I'd also avoid categorising Cameron until we get some sort of proper Labour response to English votes for English laws. Once Miliband leaves the bunker and tells us his view we'll have a better idea of how things stack up (also worth hearing what Clegg thinks).
People don't seem to quite understand how constitutionally stupid things currently are. We have a UK government in a UK parliament. We have UK government departments in London called the Home Office, the Department for Health, Transport, etc etc. Yet these departments are ENGLISH Departments of Health, Transport etc because those policy areas have already been devolved to their respective national parliaments.
We have in practice already federated the UK - Central tax powers, central foreign affairs and defence, most other things devolved and separate legal systems to boot. What we haven't done is organised the machinery and structure of government to match, mainly because most of us are English and most of us equate "the government" to applying to all of us. Yet the majority of things prattled on about in relation to government in the UK media is irrelevant to Scotland Wales and Ulster.
Either we abolish devolution and run everything via grand committees in Parliament, or we abolish parliament in its current form and complete the job. The Tories think they have set Labour a bear trap - defend the indefensible in the form of Scottish votes on English issues. They don't get that what they are proposing is also indefensible - representation for England in a committee in Westminster is not representation equal to the rest of the UK. We either all have a parliament or none of us have.
Sadly none of the parties are willing to deal. The Tories see a way to stay in power in England having lost the 2015 election, the LibDems see a way to keep breathing, Labour see a need to defend their northern and Celtic bases. Its only UKIP who seem willing to actually have a discussion about what we should do. Watch and learn. The Tory Bear Trap will close on Cameron's leg as Farage outflanks him again.
I do hope so @DavidL - if Cameron and all the footsoldiers from BetterTogether have galvanised the Scottish Tory vote for GE2015 - what a result that would be.
Labour have their work cut out to hold Dundee West and some of their Glasgow and Lanarkshire seats. A significant number of their supporters are going to feel sore and alienated after this.
Areas that were tory in the past but have been voting SNP for yonks in Angus, Perthshire, Aberdeenshire and the borders have remembered who they are. Dozens of BT activists there give them a potential base of younger, more active members. The tories have a real opportunity to become a player in Scottish affairs again and this would do more to heal the Union than anything else I could imagine. Ruth Davidson has been one of the stars of the campaign and is the right leader to help them achieve this.
My expectation is that Salmond will stay a few months but will be gone by the end of the year so Sturgeon can bed herself in as FM for the next Scottish elections. She is highly competent and forceful but she has little of Salmond's guile and charisma. The SNP will miss him.
Time to wheel out my outside bet for 2015.... Con GAIN Banff and Buchan
Oh gawd , progressing from adding together UKIP and Conservative voters to demonstrate how the conservatives are going to win the 2015 GE , you are now assuming all the Better Together voters in Scotland are suddenly going to vote Conservative
I'm really not sure EV4EL is the great vote winner people think it is. Only last week YouGov asked "In the event that Scotland votes NO but with a much greater level of devolution, which of the following would you most like to see happen in England?
Keep things as they are- 26% (inc 32% Tories) Only English MPs voting for English laws- 29% English parliament- 15% Regional assemblies 10%
SNP to eat into Labour Glasgow and hinterlands whilst losing ground in the Highlands and Perthshire? CON surge in Moray, Angus, Banff and Perth? Blue Borders forever? All this and much less to be decided in 8 months
Morning all. After a 22 hour day yesterday I am still a bit shattered but jubilant. My son has screen shot the TV and sent it to is pals on instagram with the single word "domination". Slightly to my surprise (and the incompetence of Yougov) it really wasn't that close after all although we will now no doubt immediately start pretending that it was.
I agree with antifrank's comment downthread (generally a smart thing to do) that it is vanishingly unlikely that this will not spill into further elections. Labour have their work cut out to hold Dundee West and some of their Glasgow and Lanarkshire seats. A significant number of their supporters are going to feel sore and alienated after this.
Areas that were tory in the past but have been voting SNP for yonks in Angus, Perthshire, Aberdeenshire and the borders have remembered who they are. Dozens of BT activists there give them a potential base of younger, more active members. The tories have a real opportunity to become a player in Scottish affairs again and this would do more to heal the Union than anything else I could imagine. Ruth Davidson has been one of the stars of the campaign and is the right leader to help them achieve this.
My expectation is that Salmond will stay a few months but will be gone by the end of the year so Sturgeon can bed herself in as FM for the next Scottish elections. She is highly competent and forceful but she has little of Salmond's guile and charisma. The SNP will miss him.
The turnout was spectacular. Thousands of Scots who have found very little to enthuse themselves about in party politics have either become activists for the first time or after a long time. Scotland needs to find more productive things to care about and to utilise this incredible energy. This was one of the biggest moments in democracy in UK history and shattered though I am I am really proud to have played a small part in it. Scotland itself can be proud of what it achieved.
David - a cracking job yesterday, congratulations and a big thanks from Union supporters across the nation.
I made the point earlier that if people want to be properly represented, then they need to start asking for proportional representation. Yes I know AV was declined in a referendum, but that was the only choice on the table.
At some point even Tories might see that some form of PR is going be better than long periods in opposition or having to go into coalition with the Lib Dems. Moving to PR might give the Tories the opportunity of forming coalitions with UKIP.
My gut feeling is that PR would probably see all three major parties split to some extent. How these groups then interact with both each other and the larger minor parties would be another question.
There was an article on this site that presented the argument that the Tories should be in favour of PR for the reasons I gave earlier. FPTP really on works when you have two main parties. We now have four parties who will win 10% or more. The party that wins most votes, may not get anywhere near 40%, as they have in the past. Labour could sneek a majority with 35% of the vote and then the Tories might start to think about electoral reform.
I agree with both point and reasoning.
BUT
Call me old-fashioned, but I'd really rather they made the decision based on something less shallow that short term political goals. They should be thinking about it now.
Politicians find it difficult to accept change and they need to be kicked into action. The Tories think they can win a majority and it won't be until they realise that this is not possible, that they will start thinking about electoral reform.
Given the current boundaries and way the votes stack up, Tories have to be about 7% ahead of Labour to win a majority. I can't see it happening.
I do hope so @DavidL - if Cameron and all the footsoldiers from BetterTogether have galvanised the Scottish Tory vote for GE2015 - what a result that would be.
Labour have their work cut out to hold Dundee West and some of their Glasgow and Lanarkshire seats. A significant number of their supporters are going to feel sore and alienated after this.
Areas that were tory in the past but have been voting SNP for yonks in Angus, Perthshire, Aberdeenshire and the borders have remembered who they are. Dozens of BT activists there give them a potential base of younger, more active members. The tories have a real opportunity to become a player in Scottish affairs again and this would do more to heal the Union than anything else I could imagine. Ruth Davidson has been one of the stars of the campaign and is the right leader to help them achieve this.
My expectation is that Salmond will stay a few months but will be gone by the end of the year so Sturgeon can bed herself in as FM for the next Scottish elections. She is highly competent and forceful but she has little of Salmond's guile and charisma. The SNP will miss him.
Time to wheel out my outside bet for 2015.... Con GAIN Banff and Buchan
Oh gawd , progressing from adding together UKIP and Conservative voters to demonstrate how the conservatives are going to win the 2015 GE , you are now assuming all the Better Together voters in Scotland are suddenly going to vote Conservative
I tipped Banff as an OUTSIDE bet months ago in the event of a no, it's much less rock solid Nat since Salmond left it. They won't be voting Lib Dem, that's for sure
Comments
I think you underestimate Labour's shamelessness. Remember, from their perspective, they always hold the moral highground, and hence, the ends (ie Labour in power) justifies the means. They will scupper EV4EL
However Well done to Cameron, well done all.
UK Saved
More powers for Scotland
English votes for English laws
UKIP in a strong position
Even for a huge cynic like me, it's a good day.
I am interested in fewer politicians not more, doing less and doing it for their constituents not their party or themselves. Yet another tier of government is the very last thing we need in this country.
Believe me, that bar chart, continually repeated (as it would be) will be election changing....
Oh and before anyone says I'm a ukip supporter, I'm still a (none member) Lib Dem for my sins...
There is good reason for the Northern Brits (sorry!) to have a larger slice of the cake per head. They may be 8% of the population, but they are between 25% and 30% of the land area. Delivering services and maintaining that is more costly than in areas of higher population density.
This is a result he can survive on. A couple of points lower and there may have been problems for him.
On another issue, I've always said that the important thing to me is that England and Scotland remain friends whatever the result. Now we know the union is going to remain intact for the moment, giving Scotland more powers and leaving the WLQ the same will just cause discontent.
EVEL seems a good step forwards; I am unsure what an English Parliament would do.
However: the parties have proved incapable of sorting out the relatively easy problem of HoL reform. Getting EVEL through along with further powers to Scotland (and to be fair Wales) will require a maturity that I think many politicians on all sides lack.
It'll be a blooming miracle if they do it. Vested interests will intervene, particularly for Labour.
I think it's likely this will be fairly high up the agenda in 2015
North East 9,419
North West 9,252
Yorkshire and the Humber 8,610
East Midlands 8,118
West Midlands 8,498
East 7,865
London 9,435
South East 7,638
South West 8,219
England 8,529
Scotland 10,152
Wales 9,709
Northern Ireland 10,876
(Just noticed there was a type in the previous number for Scotland.) It's not to do with wealth either: Scotland has the third highest GVA per capita, after London and the South East.
So Glasgow going Yes wasn't too bad. I think Salmond can survive this result and still do well at the next GE.
11 Areas Swung to Yes
5 areas (Dundee, Glasgow, Orkney, Shetland, West Dumbartonshire) swung by enough
Biggest swings to No: Perth & Kinross & Stirling
That's a good fact for UKIP leaflets in their heartland.
In short, those two nations reached that stage naturally. They were not sliced up according to political pygmies but grew into their present arrangement. England is one land, it should have one Parliament. Why was Scotland not divided? Why was Wales not divided? Why must England be divided?
If it is good enough for Scotland, it is good enough for England.
Mr. Jessop, unlike Lords' reform, refusal to engage with the English could cost the parties significant numbers of votes.
So why have you waited over four years to do anything about it? More lies from a man who can't be trusted.
Vote UKIP.
By the way, the other person to come out of this looking like a statesman, much to my surprise, is Gordon Brown. They have both been very impressive.
He now needs to take that "safe pair of hands, grown-upness" and go on the front foot a bit more often.
And incidentally, Cam's speech, demeanour, attitude, balance, poise, is one reason why Boris will never be leader of the Cons or PM.
People are connected to their counties; in the case of historic counties, some are very connected. I'd say EVEL and more powers for localise decisions to councils would be the way forwards.
The situation in Germany and USA is very different, and the structures have been in place much longer.
I very much hope you are right. I think they will block, obfuscate, waffle on about some vague worthless regional devolution and bet that the parlt next year will be sufficient to block EV4EL, and it probably will be.
However much we are fussed, many people arent and the media will not lead interviews or press Labour on this as it suggests a lack of "community cohesion" with the beloved Scotland
Andrew Neil@afneil·20 mins
Has Ed Miliband said anything yet about his side winning?
Andrew Neil@afneil·35 mins
If you see a Labour shadow cabinet member in vicinity of Westminster please direct them to College Green. We can't find one to interview
At some point even Tories might see that some form of PR is going be better than long periods in opposition or having to go into coalition with the Lib Dems. Moving to PR might give the Tories the opportunity of forming coalitions with UKIP.
People (usually Labour MPs) say it would lead to constitutional meltdown if a Labour UK Government couldn't get England only legislation through the Commons without its Welsh and Scottish MPs, but surely the simple answer is that if Ed wins a UK majority but is far short in England, then he has to form a coalition if he wants to govern in England. Or if the Tories can still outvote him on English affairs, then he will have to negotiate and compromise on his English only programme in order to get the approval of a majority of English MPs.
Cameron didn't get a majority in the UK last time, but has managed to govern for 5 years by going into coalition and compromising on policy. What would be the difference?
It doesn't need a separate "English Cabinet" or separate England-only departments. I can't see why a Labour Home Secretary couldn't govern in a Tory-majority England - he or she would just have to build alliances and compromise on his programme to ensure it met the will of the English MPs.
Is it any different from having a Democrat US President compromising with a Republican Senate to get his programme through (or not)?
It's called democracy. And it's the way things will work in the New UK.
Its all about incremental gains which will see Cameron come through next May.
Lincoln city's rail services aren't very good, though IME. Lincolnshire's railways as a whole are a mess: Gainsborough being a particularly egregious example.
twitter.com/dizzy_thinks/status/512851651502563328
Time to be magnanimous in victory my fellow Unionists.
Huzzah to David Cameron, Gordon Brown, and George Osborne who made sure the currency became the key issue of the campaign.
Huzzah for the likes of DavidL, the Union exists because of you.
I had one man complain vigorously about my website not including 'Avon' as a county.
But surely these links to counties are stronger than the regional links?
Edit: gah 1hr 8 mins - it gets better and better...
Heptarchy is your friend
If Labour seek to delay or block it, use as a massive baseball bat to hit them every single time on it.
However my sense is that the people there look quite closely to London and feel affinity for London and the south-east distinct from their identity to England as a whole.
It'd be hard to come up with a more satisfying result. That he scuttled away from a shopping centre after a bit of boisterous heckling just made him look like a scared schoolboy.
Adenbrookes in Cambridge gives some pretty good cancer care to East Anglia, when my late brother was there a couple of years ago, the budgets were ignored and the drugs prescribed.
Students now have a better settlement than those who attended Uni before the 2010 changes, lower repayments, higher thresholds before repayment kicks in and write off of outstanding debt at a given point in time.
There are problems, there are solutions. Some are real some are imagined.
Mr. Eagles, indeed, huzzah for Mr. L!
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/good-afternoon-horny#u8d04j
http://www.thetrainline.com/train-times/lincoln-central-to-london-kings-cross
I agree with antifrank's comment downthread (generally a smart thing to do) that it is vanishingly unlikely that this will not spill into further elections. Labour have their work cut out to hold Dundee West and some of their Glasgow and Lanarkshire seats. A significant number of their supporters are going to feel sore and alienated after this.
Areas that were tory in the past but have been voting SNP for yonks in Angus, Perthshire, Aberdeenshire and the borders have remembered who they are. Dozens of BT activists there give them a potential base of younger, more active members. The tories have a real opportunity to become a player in Scottish affairs again and this would do more to heal the Union than anything else I could imagine. Ruth Davidson has been one of the stars of the campaign and is the right leader to help them achieve this.
My expectation is that Salmond will stay a few months but will be gone by the end of the year so Sturgeon can bed herself in as FM for the next Scottish elections. She is highly competent and forceful but she has little of Salmond's guile and charisma. The SNP will miss him.
The turnout was spectacular. Thousands of Scots who have found very little to enthuse themselves about in party politics have either become activists for the first time or after a long time. Scotland needs to find more productive things to care about and to utilise this incredible energy. This was one of the biggest moments in democracy in UK history and shattered though I am I am really proud to have played a small part in it. Scotland itself can be proud of what it achieved.
Love the Rough-Diamond line, my first laugh of the day.
I certainly feel connected to my home county. But then I'm from Derbyshire, a county that it's easy to be proud of. Unlike Yorkshire... ;-)
Dualling of the A47
Norwich Northern Distributor Road
I wonder if Miliband will hide for as long as he did over Rotherham (not sure he's actually emerged from that, technically. Has he made a statement beyond a tweet about it?).
Any malcolm sightings yet? the man who officially hates and despises 55% of his countrymen?
On balance I suppose it's good they've stayed, looking at 307 years of union, but I think Cameron has really cocked this one up.
Anyway, I agree entirely with those who suggest the Conservatives should crack on English votes for English laws rapidly.
We are most definitely not 'plastic cockneys', which seems to be the football fans insult of choice.
The Berkshire/Reading accent is fascinating. In my family, my grandparents sounded like Pam Ayres.
Con GAIN Banff and Buchan
I don't think you can view all the predictions.
Losers: Alex Salmond; SNP generally; Rupert Murdoch; YouGov; David Cameron
BUT
Call me old-fashioned, but I'd really rather they made the decision based on something less shallow that short term political goals. They should be thinking about it now.
Barnett must end!
I'd also avoid categorising Cameron until we get some sort of proper Labour response to English votes for English laws. Once Miliband leaves the bunker and tells us his view we'll have a better idea of how things stack up (also worth hearing what Clegg thinks).
What was the final turnout to 2 decimal places?
We have in practice already federated the UK - Central tax powers, central foreign affairs and defence, most other things devolved and separate legal systems to boot. What we haven't done is organised the machinery and structure of government to match, mainly because most of us are English and most of us equate "the government" to applying to all of us. Yet the majority of things prattled on about in relation to government in the UK media is irrelevant to Scotland Wales and Ulster.
Either we abolish devolution and run everything via grand committees in Parliament, or we abolish parliament in its current form and complete the job. The Tories think they have set Labour a bear trap - defend the indefensible in the form of Scottish votes on English issues. They don't get that what they are proposing is also indefensible - representation for England in a committee in Westminster is not representation equal to the rest of the UK. We either all have a parliament or none of us have.
Sadly none of the parties are willing to deal. The Tories see a way to stay in power in England having lost the 2015 election, the LibDems see a way to keep breathing, Labour see a need to defend their northern and Celtic bases. Its only UKIP who seem willing to actually have a discussion about what we should do. Watch and learn. The Tory Bear Trap will close on Cameron's leg as Farage outflanks him again.
Keep things as they are- 26% (inc 32% Tories)
Only English MPs voting for English laws- 29%
English parliament- 15%
Regional assemblies 10%
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dx68iw22ce/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-1400912-main.pdf
CON surge in Moray, Angus, Banff and Perth?
Blue Borders forever?
All this and much less to be decided in 8 months
One Kingdom United - sounds good !
Given the current boundaries and way the votes stack up, Tories have to be about 7% ahead of Labour to win a majority. I can't see it happening.
They won't be voting Lib Dem, that's for sure