Very impressive performance by Salmond and the Yes campaign coming as close as they did, easy to overlook thanks to everybody having different reasons to pretend it was even closer. Also a good performance by the betting markets, which stayed solid and sensible and didn't get caught up in the media narrative.
On topic, can somebody post or link to what the LibLabServatives have promised specifically?
Feck all
That would have been my guess, but I don't think that was the official wording?
@malcolmg No, not Labour, but the principles it was founded on ? Yes. We either live as a society, or die as a society. I do not have a choice, only a vote for hope.
Tonight Scotland voted for NO hope, socialists are well and truly F***ed having just voted for Christmas.
Very impressive performance by Salmond and the Yes campaign coming as close as they did, easy to overlook thanks to everybody having different reasons to pretend it was even closer. Also a good performance by the betting markets, which stayed solid and sensible and didn't get caught up in the media narrative.
On topic, can somebody post or link to what the LibLabServatives have promised specifically?
Feck all
That would have been my guess, but I don't think that was the official wording?
What the turnout shows is that Scotland cares about its constitutional settlement. I'm clear the rest of us do too, and the current arrangement is a partial halfway fudge of a deal. We can't undo Scottish devolution, or a Northern Ireland going it alone. So we need to complete the deal and go federal.
I'm not convinced that we need English parliaments in the regions - we have one law. As for the imbalance between the size of England vs the rest you can say the same about American states. Regional parliaments and no English parliament is the end of England. Because I can promise you that if a substantial number of people wanted independence from London, its the same up north as well. Let's not indulge that.
I don't see how it could work. Surely the English Parliament would have to have at least the equivalent powers of Scotland? But where does that leave Wales. Wales has no separate Legal system so it would be nonsense to devolve that to Wales. But then that couldn't be part of the English Parliament. So it unravels...
What the turnout shows is that Scotland cares about its constitutional settlement. I'm clear the rest of us do too, and the current arrangement is a partial halfway fudge of a deal. We can't undo Scottish devolution, or a Northern Ireland going it alone. So we need to complete the deal and go federal.
I'm not convinced that we need English parliaments in the regions - we have one law. As for the imbalance between the size of England vs the rest you can say the same about American states. Regional parliaments and no English parliament is the end of England. Because I can promise you that if a substantial number of people wanted independence from London, its the same up north as well. Let's not indulge that.
Labour and any other party seriously need to reconsider any deranged plans to butcher England. We won't stand for it!
What the turnout shows is that Scotland cares about its constitutional settlement. I'm clear the rest of us do too, and the current arrangement is a partial halfway fudge of a deal. We can't undo Scottish devolution, or a Northern Ireland going it alone. So we need to complete the deal and go federal.
I'm not convinced that we need English parliaments in the regions - we have one law. As for the imbalance between the size of England vs the rest you can say the same about American states. Regional parliaments and no English parliament is the end of England. Because I can promise you that if a substantial number of people wanted independence from London, its the same up north as well. Let's not indulge that.
I don't see how it could work. Surely the English Parliament would have to have at least the equivalent powers of Scotland? But where does that leave Wales. Wales has no separate Legal system so it would be nonsense to devolve that to Wales. But then that couldn't be part of the English Parliament. So it unravels...
Why can't Wales have a devolved Criminal Justice system under the auspices of the Supreme Court?
@MalcolmG Incoherent economics from Salmond devalued hope.
Think it is just down to stupid people, they will get what they have asked for. C'est la vie, we can but pray that labour do not get in now. Not only am I English now I may also have to vote Tory.
Very impressive performance by Salmond and the Yes campaign coming as close as they did, easy to overlook thanks to everybody having different reasons to pretend it was even closer. Also a good performance by the betting markets, which stayed solid and sensible and didn't get caught up in the media narrative.
On topic, can somebody post or link to what the LibLabServatives have promised specifically?
Feck all
That would have been my guess, but I don't think that was the official wording?
Saves a lot of flowery words
The giveaway is the word "process", which is a euphamism for "feck all", as in "Palestinian Peace Process".
Rent seekers are looking for ways to extend powers - charlatans wanting an English Parliament, regional assemblies and Mayors and Councils wanting more tax powers, elected Second Chamber, all modest proposals and all self seeking to a degree..
English votes on English bills in Parliament, not difficult to set up. But there will be plenty of rogues looking for ways to parcel up constitutional change for their own party's benefit.
I don't see how it could work. Surely the English Parliament would have to have at least the equivalent powers of Scotland? But where does that leave Wales. Wales has no separate Legal system so it would be nonsense to devolve that to Wales. But then that couldn't be part of the English Parliament. So it unravels...
The solution is simple. Keep the courts and procedural law reserved, and devolve substantive law to London and Cardiff. That is what happens in respect of public law now, and there is no problem.
What the turnout shows is that Scotland cares about its constitutional settlement. I'm clear the rest of us do too, and the current arrangement is a partial halfway fudge of a deal. We can't undo Scottish devolution, or a Northern Ireland going it alone. So we need to complete the deal and go federal.
I'm not convinced that we need English parliaments in the regions - we have one law. As for the imbalance between the size of England vs the rest you can say the same about American states. Regional parliaments and no English parliament is the end of England. Because I can promise you that if a substantial number of people wanted independence from London, its the same up north as well. Let's not indulge that.
I don't see how it could work. Surely the English Parliament would have to have at least the equivalent powers of Scotland? But where does that leave Wales. Wales has no separate Legal system so it would be nonsense to devolve that to Wales. But then that couldn't be part of the English Parliament. So it unravels...
Why can't Wales have a devolved Criminal Justice system under the auspices of the Supreme Court?
Maybe they could. But i'm not sure trying to create a workable Federal structure is a good reason for splitting our justice system which functions perfectly well as a unitary system. Not to the mention that there is probably little demand for it - don't Wales get a choice in what powers they are forced to accept?
The question is whether Brown/Cameron and co's knee-jerk promises were actually necessary or driven by a panic stricken response to a rogue poll?
I asked the other day if this was quite as panic-driven and spontaneous as it looked. I wonder if this announcement was pre-agreed some time before by Miliband, Clegg and Cameron.
It wouldn't surprise me. I guess we'll have to wait for the inevitable books.
Wales has an assembly not a parliament because its a nation not a country. Why isn't Wales on the UK flag? It is - the English flag which Wales is a principality of. But that's OK, it still keeps its assembly under a federal system.
The pollsters will be soul-searching in the coming days.
Thing is, they were only about 3% off.
That's actually not that bad.
And plausibly the 3% was undecided voters deciding at the last minute, which it's not obvious they should be correcting for, even if they reckon it's probably going to happen.
Rent seekers are looking for ways to extend powers - charlatans wanting an English Parliament, regional assemblies and Mayors and Councils wanting more tax powers, elected Second Chamber, all modest proposals and all self seeking to a degree..
English votes on English bills in Parliament, not difficult to set up. But there will be plenty of rogues looking for ways to parcel up constitutional change for their own party's benefit.
And what about the Home Nation MPs that greatly influence the specific budgets of devolved areas like one Danny Alexander. Hm? Whats the point of having English MP's vote when Home Nation MPs have control of the purse strings. EVfEl is a joke!
To my mind the Union is over. The sheer negativity of the NO campaign has left a nasty taste in my mouth. As I've said before if your spouse says they're thinking about leaving you and then decided to stay because they're too afraid to leave, you aren't going to be that fond of them.
Tory MPs are already agitating on the backbenches. There's no longer any mood to appease the Scots. It's never felt more like a separate country. A new constitutional settlement would be very complicated and will take years. An English parliament couldn't co-exist with the Union for long.
It's clear Scotland wants and expects more powers and it seems likely that England will now expect to have an exclusive say over many of its affairs. But we don't have to devolve the same powers to each component bit at the same time, nor treat each component bit on a unitary basis for all competences. We can mix and match. And we should.
@malcolmg There is a strange thing about Christianity, Its center shifted to an obscure and remote place, (actually a few places, but it doesn't fit the narrative), and from there re-spread over large parts of Europe. It has repeated this trick many times,and possibly it has one still left up it's sleeve?
Rent seekers are looking for ways to extend powers - charlatans wanting an English Parliament, regional assemblies and Mayors and Councils wanting more tax powers, elected Second Chamber, all modest proposals and all self seeking to a degree..
English votes on English bills in Parliament, not difficult to set up. But there will be plenty of rogues looking for ways to parcel up constitutional change for their own party's benefit.
It is difficult to set up, for reasons suggested previously. How do you define an "English bill", when any bill can be made a UK bill simply by adding a pan-UK clause.
Agree about Rent seekers though. Why would anyone want more politicians and a massive expansion in political bodies with "democatic" mandates to compete with each other and create permanent legislative conflict and deadlock?
Wales has an assembly not a parliament because its a nation not a country. Why isn't Wales on the UK flag? It is - the English flag which Wales is a principality of. But that's OK, it still keeps its assembly under a federal system.
How would you see a federal state? What would it mean in reality if one member of the federation had 85% of the population and a commensurate number of representatives in the senate?
Right off to bed, absolutely knackered, but couldn't go to sleep until Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire had finally declared. Glad I got one clear prediction right on the night apart from a long predicted comfortable No win overall, and that is Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire would definitely be clear No results. Phew! Worth noting that all the SNP MP's who are most vociferous on Twitter all got a No result in their own constituency backyards. A real warning to the SNP and their prospects at the next GE.......
What the turnout shows is that Scotland cares about its constitutional settlement. I'm clear the rest of us do too, and the current arrangement is a partial halfway fudge of a deal. We can't undo Scottish devolution, or a Northern Ireland going it alone. So we need to complete the deal and go federal.
I'm not convinced that we need English parliaments in the regions - we have one law. As for the imbalance between the size of England vs the rest you can say the same about American states. Regional parliaments and no English parliament is the end of England. Because I can promise you that if a substantial number of people wanted independence from London, its the same up north as well. Let's not indulge that.
I don't see how it could work. Surely the English Parliament would have to have at least the equivalent powers of Scotland? But where does that leave Wales. Wales has no separate Legal system so it would be nonsense to devolve that to Wales. But then that couldn't be part of the English Parliament. So it unravels...
Why can't Wales have a devolved Criminal Justice system under the auspices of the Supreme Court?
Maybe they could. But i'm not sure trying to create a workable Federal structure is a good reason for splitting our justice system which functions perfectly well as a unitary system. Not to the mention that there is probably little demand for it - don't Wales get a choice in what powers they are forced to accept?
If Wales want to give up their assembly to keep their unitary legal system and have a joint Assembly with England I'm sure that can be arranged but why shouldn't England have the same rights as the rest of the UK? Wales like Scotland can't have its democratic cake and eat it! After all we English only make up 85% of the population huh?
It's clear Scotland wants and expects more powers and it seems likely that England will now expect to have an exclusive say over many of its affairs. But we don't have to devolve the same powers to each component bit at the same time, nor treat each component bit on a unitary basis for all competences. We can mix and match. And we should.
"England" will now expect, or "English politicians will now expect"...?
And the last remaining question: will Highland take No above the two million mark?
(That brings on another matter: if you believe the SNP, then 2 out of every 3 people who voted yes signed their declaration. That seems rather high, and if true, a sign that Yes did not actually convince that many people over their baseline)
Wales has an assembly not a parliament because its a nation not a country. Why isn't Wales on the UK flag? It is - the English flag which Wales is a principality of. But that's OK, it still keeps its assembly under a federal system.
How would you see a federal state? What would it mean in reality if one member of the federation had 85% of the population and a commensurate number of representatives in the senate?
Simples - the lower house elects MPs based on population size. The upper house elects equal numbers per nation regardless of population size. Like in America.
I wonder how Malcolm feels now that majority the good people of Scotland disagree with him and have told Salmond NO. Although I'm sure Malcolm made a valuable contribution to the NO campaign.
Thank you Scotalnd f0r 1.6 m votes for Scottish Independence - Knwo there is a majority for a No. Decided not to be an independent country, and accept democratic majority.
Wales has an assembly not a parliament because its a nation not a country. Why isn't Wales on the UK flag? It is - the English flag which Wales is a principality of. But that's OK, it still keeps its assembly under a federal system.
How would you see a federal state? What would it mean in reality if one member of the federation had 85% of the population and a commensurate number of representatives in the senate?
You would need a system similar to the US where the senate is equal on states, and the House is based on population.
It's clear Scotland wants and expects more powers and it seems likely that England will now expect to have an exclusive say over many of its affairs. But we don't have to devolve the same powers to each component bit at the same time, nor treat each component bit on a unitary basis for all competences. We can mix and match. And we should.
Yeah so lets make an even greater mess of our political and governmental system than it is already. The system needs rationalising not some Woolworth's style pick n' mix chosen by vested interests!
Wales has an assembly not a parliament because its a nation not a country. Why isn't Wales on the UK flag? It is - the English flag which Wales is a principality of. But that's OK, it still keeps its assembly under a federal system.
How would you see a federal state? What would it mean in reality if one member of the federation had 85% of the population and a commensurate number of representatives in the senate?
Simples - the lower house elects MPs based on population size. The upper house elects equal numbers per nation regardless of population size. Like in America.
Wales has an assembly not a parliament because its a nation not a country. Why isn't Wales on the UK flag? It is - the English flag which Wales is a principality of. But that's OK, it still keeps its assembly under a federal system.
How would you see a federal state? What would it mean in reality if one member of the federation had 85% of the population and a commensurate number of representatives in the senate?
You would need a system similar to the US where the senate is equal on states, and the House is based on population.
There are 50 states, and I'm sure that overall that ends up reasonably balanced. Can't see the same being true with only 3/4 states in uk!?
Believe in your countrymen, Malcolm; there is a proud Scottish life to lead now.
Thanks Topping , afraid not for me , the only former country in the world to ever vote to be a region of another country does not make me proud I am afraid. I will survive no problem as I am well sorted but will never be a proud Scot again.
@manofkent2014 "Yeah so lets make an even greater mess of our political and governmental system than it is already........ " Or sort it so it works, rather than to the advantage of the few?
Believe in your countrymen, Malcolm; there is a proud Scottish life to lead now.
Thanks Topping , afraid not for me , the only former country in the world to ever vote to be a region of another country does not make me proud I am afraid. I will survive no problem as I am well sorted but will never be a proud Scot again.
Wales has an assembly not a parliament because its a nation not a country. Why isn't Wales on the UK flag? It is - the English flag which Wales is a principality of. But that's OK, it still keeps its assembly under a federal system.
How would you see a federal state? What would it mean in reality if one member of the federation had 85% of the population and a commensurate number of representatives in the senate?
Simples - the lower house elects MPs based on population size. The upper house elects equal numbers per nation regardless of population size. Like in America.
Wales has an assembly not a parliament because its a nation not a country. Why isn't Wales on the UK flag? It is - the English flag which Wales is a principality of. But that's OK, it still keeps its assembly under a federal system.
How would you see a federal state? What would it mean in reality if one member of the federation had 85% of the population and a commensurate number of representatives in the senate?
You would need a system similar to the US where the senate is equal on states, and the House is based on population.
There are 50 states, and I'm sure that overall that ends up reasonably balanced. Can't see the same being true with only 3/4 states in uk!?
That's the challenge. Maybe some sort of veto over certain laws? We live in interesting times.
Believe in your countrymen, Malcolm; there is a proud Scottish life to lead now.
Thanks Topping , afraid not for me , the only former country in the world to ever vote to be a region of another country does not make me proud I am afraid. I will survive no problem as I am well sorted but will never be a proud Scot again.
You should be. Scotland is a great country, and will remain a great country. You just failed to convince the majority that you were better off alone than together.
I wonder how Malcolm feels now that majority the good people of Scotland disagree with him and have told Salmond NO. Although I'm sure Malcolm made a valuable contribution to the NO campaign.
For that matter, wheres Fatface himself gone?
Doubles and Erchies all round.
You Fecking halfwit if you had read any of my posts you would know how I feel. I could have guessed that you would be the one real Thick Halfwitted Cretin on the site.
The answer for ensuring a stable and sustainable solution is developed is a consistent use of subsidiarity. If for once Westminster can act responsibility and develop a rational use of subsidiarity almost all the issues regarding our political system of the last few decades will go away.
There's still plenty of hard, physical capital flying about.
Not for the poor.
Even better, it's becoming easier to risk time instead of capital. It's easier to learn: the OU did a brilliant job, and the Internet now allows people to learn all sorts of things. The excellent Kahn Academy is one example.
MOOCs in general a terrible way to learn and Khan Academy in particular is just dire. Online graduation rates have been proven to be horrible for online universities. And, of course, good luck trying to get a job based on online qualifications.
The world is not fair. The poor do not have the same opportunities as the middle-class or wealthy. Stop blaming the poor for being poor. If you're born in poverty, you're likely to die in poverty. Fact. Social mobility is decreasing, not increasing. Fact.
The right-wing ideal of people "pulling them up by their own bootstraps" is largely bullcrap, driven by privileged people who don't see their advantage nor understand the hugedisadvantages that the poor face. It really is not a "lack of ambition" that's the problem.
What's the solution? I don't know, it's an incredibly complex issue. People grow up in horrible dysfunctional families, in horrible dysfunctional environments and end up lacking basic life skills, fail to gain implicit life knowledge and get into bad habits. People don't have the necessary social support structures, like functioning families or close communities. People don't have access to resources for education or opportunities to gain qualifications. The poverty cycle is really tough to break, and screaming "personal responsibility" does not do anything to solve the very real problems.
But a lot of people's problems simply come down to them being poor and surrounded by other poor people. A negative income tax would help a lot people and give more power to those people, which should improve working conditions, living conditions and local economies. There's a reason it's catching on amongst both the left and the right (e.g. the Tax-Payers Alliance is in favour of it, for example, and it probably inspired Universal Credit).
It's clear the traditional right-wing solution, of actively letting them do nothing or even punshing and stigmatising those who are struggling and have problems, does not work.
Believe in your countrymen, Malcolm; there is a proud Scottish life to lead now.
Thanks Topping , afraid not for me , the only former country in the world to ever vote to be a region of another country does not make me proud I am afraid. I will survive no problem as I am well sorted but will never be a proud Scot again.
You should be. Scotland is a great country, and will remain a great country. You just failed to convince the majority that you were better off alone than together.
Scotland is still Scotland.
Will never be the same for me, but for sure it means the whingers have nowhere to hide now.
Comments
Yes 71,337
No 108,606
Turnout 87%
Salmond's back yard.
For example, "And because of the continuation of the Barnett Formula" does not necessarily mean that the Barnett Formula will continue.
Yes 39%
No 61%
YES - 26,324
NO - 37,143
No Malcolm, Scotland voted for what it has always known, That co-operation is better than strife,
"....and all men would brothers be."
Yes - 4
No - 25
Gordo saves the day...?
That's actually not that bad.
Yes - 55.4
No - 44.6
Before the last 3, it was Yes 54.7.
English votes on English bills in Parliament, not difficult to set up. But there will be plenty of rogues looking for ways to parcel up constitutional change for their own party's benefit.
It wouldn't surprise me. I guess we'll have to wait for the inevitable books.
Yes 114,148
No 139,788
Credit to malcolmg for turning up.
I am on 44.34% in the prediction contest, fingers crossed.
I am however slightly poorer as side bets did not go well.
Tory MPs are already agitating on the backbenches. There's no longer any mood to appease the Scots. It's never felt more like a separate country. A new constitutional settlement would be very complicated and will take years. An English parliament couldn't co-exist with the Union for long.
Looks like it will be over 55%.
Victory margin over 10%.
There is a strange thing about Christianity, Its center shifted to an obscure and remote place, (actually a few places, but it doesn't fit the narrative), and from there re-spread over large parts of Europe.
It has repeated this trick many times,and possibly it has one still left up it's sleeve?
Agree about Rent seekers though. Why would anyone want more politicians and a massive expansion in political bodies with "democatic" mandates to compete with each other and create permanent legislative conflict and deadlock?
With 2 results to go, they're on 1,877,252.
Yes 27232
No 36935
Believe in your countrymen, Malcolm; there is a proud Scottish life to lead now.
(That brings on another matter: if you believe the SNP, then 2 out of every 3 people who voted yes signed their declaration. That seems rather high, and if true, a sign that Yes did not actually convince that many people over their baseline)
...What does that mean?
For that matter, wheres Fatface himself gone?
Doubles and Erchies all round.
Glasgow 25,432
Dundee 13,740
West Dunbartonshire 4,944
North Lanarkshire 4,861
One Scotland, all it needs is One Leader.
Can't see the same being true with only 3/4 states in uk!?
I will survive no problem as I am well sorted but will never be a proud Scot again.
"Yeah so lets make an even greater mess of our political and governmental system than it is already........ "
Or sort it so it works, rather than to the advantage of the few?
Chin up, move on. Be a good loser...
Scotland is still Scotland.
The world is not fair. The poor do not have the same opportunities as the middle-class or wealthy. Stop blaming the poor for being poor. If you're born in poverty, you're likely to die in poverty. Fact. Social mobility is decreasing, not increasing. Fact.
The right-wing ideal of people "pulling them up by their own bootstraps" is largely bullcrap, driven by privileged people who don't see their advantage nor understand the hugedisadvantages that the poor face. It really is not a "lack of ambition" that's the problem.
What's the solution? I don't know, it's an incredibly complex issue. People grow up in horrible dysfunctional families, in horrible dysfunctional environments and end up lacking basic life skills, fail to gain implicit life knowledge and get into bad habits. People don't have the necessary social support structures, like functioning families or close communities. People don't have access to resources for education or opportunities to gain qualifications. The poverty cycle is really tough to break, and screaming "personal responsibility" does not do anything to solve the very real problems.
But a lot of people's problems simply come down to them being poor and surrounded by other poor people. A negative income tax would help a lot people and give more power to those people, which should improve working conditions, living conditions and local economies. There's a reason it's catching on amongst both the left and the right (e.g. the Tax-Payers Alliance is in favour of it, for example, and it probably inspired Universal Credit).
It's clear the traditional right-wing solution, of actively letting them do nothing or even punshing and stigmatising those who are struggling and have problems, does not work.