'Cough' - What about Alex Salmond's position as First Minister right now?! The Westminster Coalition Government and the main Opposition has now a GE manifesto and campaign to prepare for, and one I would suggest is going to allow for more time to prepare for such a far reaching debate on the issue than tonight.
FPT. Peter from Putney nails it for the next GE. As I keep saying, its the economy stupid, just keep looking at those economic competence leads that Cameron and Osborne enjoy over Ed Miliband and Ed Balls.
"If the final result is indeed 43% : 57%, representing a No win by 14% (perhaps even more), you'd have to say that the pollsters didn't exactly cover themselves with glory.
The reason ...... for my money they hopelessly underestimated the Shy Nos, just as they will underestimate the Shy Tories next May - remember you read it here first!"
If it's the economy stoopid! how does that look in May 2015? But the who constitution things might trump all that...
Yes! great news to wake up to. Thanks to DavidL and the other campaigners for keeping our country together. Great not to have this nagging worry. Now we need to sort things out for the English devolution.
Its been so bloody that it would have been entertaining either way. More entertaining with a yes, but the no campaign buggered it up so comprehensively that we now get to watch them fight over their fag packet proposals.
Personally I'd like a Federal UK - and always have felt that its the ultimate solution for the bitty mess that is the UK - but don't think it will go that far. Actually I don't think it will go anywhere - at least not in this parliament. So it will come down to Labour post 2015 delivering a fix, and that will be as divisive as always!
People who felt they had nothing to lose voted Yes. That explains the vote in Glasgow and surrounding deprived areas in North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire.
@bbckamal: Sterling reacts to No vote in Asia trading: hits 1.65 against the dollar, up 0.6%, and 1.27 against the euro, also up 0.6%, a two year high.
Glad to have you in the tent pissing out malcolmg. Or pissing everywhere. But at least you are in the tent.
Cannot believe that the tossers chose not to be a country. I hope nobody ever gives me any crap again about brave Scottish or anything similar. I am ashamed to be Scottish. I look forward to hearing them whinge in future when they get shafted.
@JosiasJessop Tell me, who exactly has "won" in monetary terms, and who has lost?
I'm not sure that's the right question. Obviously, people who choose to take risks with capital and time, and work hard will win in monetary terms; there is no way the state could compete.
People can't choose to risk capital they don't have.
Its been so bloody that it would have been entertaining either way. More entertaining with a yes, but the no campaign buggered it up so comprehensively that we now get to watch them fight over their fag packet proposals.
Personally I'd like a Federal UK - and always have felt that its the ultimate solution for the bitty mess that is the UK - but don't think it will go that far. Actually I don't think it will go anywhere - at least not in this parliament. So it will come down to Labour post 2015 delivering a fix, and that will be as divisive as always!
I was against devolution in '99 as I saw it as the first steps on the road to the inevitable breakup of the union. Without serious thought to the imbalance of powers and the result that Westminster would become increasingly focused on English/Welsh issues (and rightly so really). This situation would just get worse with more powers transferred, unless devolution also applied to England.
Full federalism, in my opinion, is the only solution that can save the union in the long term, but this would require devolving England into regions as a federal solution cannot work where one party is so substantially larger...
Glad to have you in the tent pissing out malcolmg. Or pissing everywhere. But at least you are in the tent.
Cannot believe that the tossers chose not to be a country. I hope nobody ever gives me any crap again about brave Scottish or anything similar. I am ashamed to be Scottish. I look forward to hearing them whinge in future when they get shafted.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 13s Whether you are for YES or NO the 86% turnout is something to celebrate
A festival of democracy! Even if it had been a more decisive yes or no, you can't beat the turnout. How do we bottle that level of fire and apply it to the rest of the UK?
@malcolmg "I am ashamed to be Scottish. I look forward to hearing them whinge in future when they get shafted." Either way", I am not ashamed to be Scottish, we voted, and we decided. Can you think of a better way?
The establishment parties better not try and hide behind a General Election mandate to stitch up and English devolution offer. Whatever cobbled together stitch up they come up with must be offered under a separate referendum with the option of an English Parliament!
@JosiasJessop Tell me, who exactly has "won" in monetary terms, and who has lost?
I'm not sure that's the right question. Obviously, people who choose to take risks with capital and time, and work hard will win in monetary terms; there is no way the state could compete.
People can't choose to risk capital they don't have.
There's still plenty of hard, physical capital flying about. Even better, it's becoming easier to risk time instead of capital. It's easier to learn: the OU did a brilliant job, and the Internet now allows people to learn all sorts of things. The excellent Kahn Academy is one example.
Devolved government can only be good for the UK. And can we have a new voting system too please? FPTP has a lot to answer for regarding voter disillusionment and division. Not fit for a multi party system.
Glad to have you in the tent pissing out malcolmg. Or pissing everywhere. But at least you are in the tent.
Cannot believe that the tossers chose not to be a country. I hope nobody ever gives me any crap again about brave Scottish or anything similar. I am ashamed to be Scottish. I look forward to hearing them whinge in future when they get shafted.
Scotland is a country. Always has been and always will be.
I understand you're upset and don't be too hard on yourself, or your countrymen. The case wasn't made, but Scotland and the UK will still be very different in the future.
Congratulations to Alex Salmond. Without a single viable policy, voodoo economics and a plethora of inaccurate statistics he managed to get 45% of Scots to vote YES. Not sure what that says about the Scottish people though...
What a momentous night for Scotland and the whole UK. I am starting to flag a bit having been up all night, but I am determined to see all the results declared and the PM and FM speak, before going to bed.
Delighted it looks like No will win and 55/45 is around my prediction too. We now need to work to rebuild our United Kingdom for the 21st century.
Devolved government can only be good for the UK. And can we have a new voting system too please? FPTP has a lot to answer for regarding voter disillusionment and division. Not fit for a multi party system.
You're kidding. The establishment parties are not going hand over power to UKIP. Anyway who really wants centralising vehicles which will increase the size of constituencies. What's needed is decentralisation and devolution not more centralisation.
@malcolmg "I am ashamed to be Scottish. I look forward to hearing them whinge in future when they get shafted." Either way", I am not ashamed to be Scottish, we voted, and we decided. Can you think of a better way?
Cowards voting for a pig in a poke is enough for me , hope the tossers suffer and deservedly so. No more whinging from all those wankers in labour, planned poverty and deprivation was their choice.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 13s Whether you are for YES or NO the 86% turnout is something to celebrate
A festival of democracy! Even if it had been a more decisive yes or no, you can't beat the turnout. How do we bottle that level of fire and apply it to the rest of the UK?
By increasing (substantially) the amount of religious prejudice in England? Look at the results by area... this was a Protestant NO (What, after all, unites Brown, Cameron and Her Majesty?) and a Catholic YES.
Devolved government can only be good for the UK. And can we have a new voting system too please? FPTP has a lot to answer for regarding voter disillusionment and division. Not fit for a multi party system.
You're kidding. The establishment parties are not going hand over power to UKIP. Anyway who really wants centralising vehicles which will increase the size of constituencies. What's needed is decentralisation and devolution not more centralisation.
We had a referendum you lost. Live with it.
LOL. If you had read any of my posts you would see that I am passionately FOR the Union. Just not for the status quo. The two are not incompatible. You turnip.
Listening to R5L, 'Yes' appear to be suffering a delusion that they haven't been trounced.
Which really sums up their campaign, and why they lost. A concious decision to ignore reality and state the world is the way they want it to be, rather than the way it is.
The Scottish people have chosen reality over dreams.
Listening to R5L, 'Yes' appear to be suffering a delusion that they haven't been trounced.
Which really sums up their campaign, and why they lost. A concious decision to ignore reality and state the world is the way they want it to be, rather than the way it is.
The Scottish people have chosen reality over dreams.
Couldn't agree more. But Westminster must embrace change now.
Very impressive performance by Salmond and the Yes campaign coming as close as they did, easy to overlook thanks to everybody having different reasons to pretend it was even closer. Also a good performance by the betting markets, which stayed solid and sensible and didn't get caught up in the media narrative.
On topic, can somebody post or link to what the LibLabServatives have promised specifically?
Devolved government can only be good for the UK. And can we have a new voting system too please? FPTP has a lot to answer for regarding voter disillusionment and division. Not fit for a multi party system.
You're kidding. The establishment parties are not going hand over power to UKIP. Anyway who really wants centralising vehicles which will increase the size of constituencies. What's needed is decentralisation and devolution not more centralisation.
We had a referendum you lost. Live with it.
LOL. If you had read any of my posts you would see that I am passionately FOR the Union. Just not for the status quo. The two are not incompatible. You turnip.
LOL I was talking about the AVPlus referendum (you were talking about voting system change). You Cabbage!
@TogetherDarling: An extraordinary night. Humbled by the level of support and the efforts of our volunteers. Will give speech in Glasgow shortly. #indyref
Very impressive performance by Salmond and the Yes campaign coming as close as they did, easy to overlook thanks to everybody having different reasons to pretend it was even closer. Also a good performance by the betting markets, which stayed solid and sensible and didn't get caught up in the media narrative.
On topic, can somebody post or link to what the LibLabServatives have promised specifically?
Listening to R5L, 'Yes' appear to be suffering a delusion that they haven't been trounced.
Which really sums up their campaign, and why they lost. A concious decision to ignore reality and state the world is the way they want it to be, rather than the way it is.
The Scottish people have chosen reality over dreams.
Couldn't agree more. But Westminster must embrace change now.
Yep. Which might make the 'vow', widely derided just a few hours ago, a master-stroke.
Devolved government can only be good for the UK. And can we have a new voting system too please? FPTP has a lot to answer for regarding voter disillusionment and division. Not fit for a multi party system.
You're kidding. The establishment parties are not going hand over power to UKIP. Anyway who really wants centralising vehicles which will increase the size of constituencies. What's needed is decentralisation and devolution not more centralisation.
We had a referendum you lost. Live with it.
LOL. If you had read any of my posts you would see that I am passionately FOR the Union. Just not for the status quo. The two are not incompatible. You turnip.
LOL I was talking about the AVPlus referendum. You Cabbage!
What the turnout shows is that Scotland cares about its constitutional settlement. I'm clear the rest of us do too, and the current arrangement is a partial halfway fudge of a deal. We can't undo Scottish devolution, or a Northern Ireland going it alone. So we need to complete the deal and go federal.
I'm not convinced that we need English parliaments in the regions - we have one law. As for the imbalance between the size of England vs the rest you can say the same about American states. Regional parliaments and no English parliament is the end of England. Because I can promise you that if a substantial number of people wanted independence from London, its the same up north as well. Let's not indulge that.
@malcolmg No, not Labour, but the principles it was founded on ? Yes. We either live as a society, or die as a society. I do not have a choice, only a vote for hope.
Comments
Oi you gazzumping burger, I have that one copyrighted below!
No sh*t, Sherlock.
What happens when it is easier to create "imaginary wealth" than it is to create the "real thing"?
September 18th 2014 Scotland's date with unity!
glad it's a no, but was a close run thing.
So be careful - BBC website totals are wrong.
Personally I'd like a Federal UK - and always have felt that its the ultimate solution for the bitty mess that is the UK - but don't think it will go that far. Actually I don't think it will go anywhere - at least not in this parliament. So it will come down to Labour post 2015 delivering a fix, and that will be as divisive as always!
Edit: rather comic timing there!
Whether you are for YES or NO the 86% turnout is something to celebrate
What a relief!
Have a good holiday Malcolm, and we will welcome you back when you return.....Ya turnip...;-)
Full federalism, in my opinion, is the only solution that can save the union in the long term, but this would require devolving England into regions as a federal solution cannot work where one party is so substantially larger...
"I am ashamed to be Scottish. I look forward to hearing them whinge in future when they get shafted." Either way",
I am not ashamed to be Scottish, we voted, and we decided.
Can you think of a better way?
https://www.khanacademy.org/
Glad it worked out...did not think i'd care so much..
I understand you're upset and don't be too hard on yourself, or your countrymen. The case wasn't made, but Scotland and the UK will still be very different in the future.
Been another great nite on PB. Glad the Union has survived, but sympathise with disappointments of Nationalists.
Hope it goes well from here but too tired to think any more about it.
Sleep well everybody.
The" enemy" are all craven cowards? I would argue they aren't......this belief has saved me many a time.
Delighted it looks like No will win and 55/45 is around my prediction too. We now need to work to rebuild our United Kingdom for the 21st century.
RT @britainelects ·
IMPORTANT:
First Minister Alex Salmond is to make a statement at 06:20.
Well done to Glasgow, our commonwealth city, and to the people of Scotland for such a incredible support
We had a referendum you lost. Live with it.
You turnip.
He needs to now, the focus is all on him now. This is when he shines.
Which really sums up their campaign, and why they lost. A concious decision to ignore reality and state the world is the way they want it to be, rather than the way it is.
The Scottish people have chosen reality over dreams.
You will have to try harder, I would have accepted the vote either way..but then again, I am a socialist (in a Pragmatic Communist way)
I doubt Salmond 'delayed yeses' will manage that.
On the other hand, they aren't the councils I was expecting except for Dundee.
On topic, can somebody post or link to what the LibLabServatives have promised specifically?
Politico Daily @Politico_Daily 1m
Breaking: Nicola Sturgeon concedes defeat #indyref #ScotlandDecides
Perhaps. With a following wind. ;-)
Came in second highest, just behind dundee. Another good value loser from pong...
I'm not convinced that we need English parliaments in the regions - we have one law. As for the imbalance between the size of England vs the rest you can say the same about American states. Regional parliaments and no English parliament is the end of England. Because I can promise you that if a substantial number of people wanted independence from London, its the same up north as well. Let's not indulge that.
No, not Labour, but the principles it was founded on ? Yes. We either live as a society, or die as a society. I do not have a choice, only a vote for hope.