Another blustering and divisive speech from Salmond, and one in which he yet again revels in the corrosive divisions he has created in Scotland. He should go!
@tombradby: Cameron about to make a statement on plans for more Scottish devolution, but also blocking Scottish MPs from voting on English etc matters.
Delighted that No has prevailed and that Scotland will remain in the United Kingdom. We need to work together now to reshape that Union for the 21st century. Special thanks to Mike and the whole team for keeping this site running throughout and to the people of Scotland for giving us such a superb demonstration of democracy in action. Finally DavidL et al, you have earned a rest and the most sincere thanks for all of us who believe in the UK.
Believe in your countrymen, Malcolm; there is a proud Scottish life to lead now.
Thanks Topping , afraid not for me , the only former country in the world to ever vote to be a region of another country does not make me proud I am afraid. I will survive no problem as I am well sorted but will never be a proud Scot again.
I hear the people and their music. I see the moors and mountains. And it winds around and touches my Highland dna. This would happen with or without independence.
@tombradby: Cameron about to make a statement on plans for more Scottish devolution, but also blocking Scottish MPs from voting on English etc matters.
and dare Ed to vote against either of them...
The one good thing from it is that Cameron can put the boot into Labour big time. Hopefully he has put steel toecaps on and gives Ed and Labour the absolute kicking they deserve.
@tombradby: Cameron about to make a statement on plans for more Scottish devolution, but also blocking Scottish MPs from voting on English etc matters.
and dare Ed to vote against either of them...
Knowing Cameron, he will accept the incoherent compromise suggested by the McKay Commission. The people of England will not forgive him if he does.
Agree about Rent seekers though. Why would anyone want more politicians and a massive expansion in political bodies with "democatic" mandates to compete with each other and create permanent legislative conflict and deadlock?
I agree. But the right can see legislative conflict and deadlock as a good thing, as demonstrated by the GOP in the US. You can't be more "conservative" than making it impossible to implement any changes.
I'm very, very cynical about federalism and devolution.
Genuine question: Do the Conservatives on here accept the need for constitutional change in light of the 1.5 million votes to leave the Union?
No. English voters are turning to UKIP because they're fed up with too much attention being paid to other parts of the UK when England comprises 85% of the population.
@malcolmg It will be the same country to me, the landscape will not have changed much, and my friends will still be my friends, except of course those Tory scum whose presence I merely put up with. (especially if they are buying the drinks)
Believe in your countrymen, Malcolm; there is a proud Scottish life to lead now.
Thanks Topping , afraid not for me , the only former country in the world to ever vote to be a region of another country does not make me proud I am afraid. I will survive no problem as I am well sorted but will never be a proud Scot again.
I hear the people and their music. I see the moors and mountains. And it winds around and touches my Highland dna. This would happen with or without independence.
What happens if Ed's response is to call for an English referendum? Would England produce a majority for proposals that makes Tory policies more likely...?
@tombradby: Cameron about to make a statement on plans for more Scottish devolution, but also blocking Scottish MPs from voting on English etc matters.
and dare Ed to vote against either of them...
It seems unlikely somehow, unless the Prime Minister is cavalier about reigniting calls for Scottish independence.
@tombradby: Cameron about to make a statement on plans for more Scottish devolution, but also blocking Scottish MPs from voting on English etc matters.
and dare Ed to vote against either of them...
Unless it includes proposals of how England can decide how its overall budget is allocated without interference from other Home Nation MPs and ensure that party leaders cannot impose the whip on English MPs in such matters then it will be a bag of crap. If you don't control the money you control nothing.
I wonder how Malcolm feels now that majority the good people of Scotland disagree with him and have told Salmond NO. Although I'm sure Malcolm made a valuable contribution to the NO campaign.
For that matter, wheres Fatface himself gone?
Doubles and Erchies all round.
You Fecking halfwit if you had read any of my posts you would know how I feel. I could have guessed that you would be the one real Thick Halfwitted Cretin on the site.
Comedy Gold.
I would however like to take the opportunity to send genuine commiserations to Carnyx though, who argued the case for YES with restraint and dignity (unlike certain other people I could mention).
I think if Salmond and co had been, in my opinion honest, with the electorate, and realistically admitted that the next 10-20 years would see tough times before things stable out into a prosperous country rather than presenting best case scenarious that involved things like the Spanish co-operating fully, the rUK weakly agreeing a settlement not in the interests of rUK or Scotland defaulting on their share of UK debt and getting away with it (which was plainly bonkers in my opinion), then it would have been much closer.
As to Malcolm - What you sow you reap mate, and I suspect your going to have to put up with a lot more reaping than my little contribution.
@malcolmg It will be the same country to me, the landscape will not have changed much, and my friends will still be my friends, except of course those Tory scum whose presence I merely put up with. (especially if they are buying the drinks)
The one ray of light is that Labour will get completely stuffed and broken forever.
I wonder how Malcolm feels now that majority the good people of Scotland disagree with him and have told Salmond NO. Although I'm sure Malcolm made a valuable contribution to the NO campaign.
For that matter, wheres Fatface himself gone?
Doubles and Erchies all round.
You Fecking halfwit if you had read any of my posts you would know how I feel. I could have guessed that you would be the one real Thick Halfwitted Cretin on the site.
Comedy Gold.
I would however like to take the opportunity to send genuine commiserations to Carnyx though, who argued the case for YES with restraint and dignity (unlike certain other people I could mention).
I think if Salmond and co had been, in my opinion honest, with the electorate, and realistically admitted that the next 10-20 years would see tough times before things stable out into a prosperous country rather than presenting best case scenarious that involved things like the Spanish co-operating fully, the rUK weakly agreeing a settlement not in the interests of rUK or Scotland defaulting on their share of UK debt and getting away with it (which was plainly bonkers in my opinion), then it would have been much closer.
@malcolmg It will be the same country to me, the landscape will not have changed much, and my friends will still be my friends, except of course those Tory scum whose presence I merely put up with. (especially if they are buying the drinks)
Such rancour. Your country, your people have voted. Accept it.
"MOOCs in general a terrible way to learn and Khan Academy in is horrible"
Citation, please. The great thing is that there are many sites teaching things in different ways, meaning someone can find a teaching style that suits them. Whereas in school we only have one teacher. MOOCs are a tool; they're no use if they remain in the toolbox. And how is the Khan Academy horrible?
"And, of course, good luck trying to get a job based on online qualifications."
I don't have a degree, and am mostly self-taught in my discipline. Yet I managed to get a good, well-paid job in an industry I did not intend to enter. And I got little direct help from my family as they worked in a totally different industry.
"Stop blaming the poor for being poor."
That's not what I'm saying. I'm mostly blaming the society that surrounds them; for instance the teachers who told people I know that it was no point in educating them as they were just going to end up down the mine. Society gave up on them early. But the best way out of poverty is to help yourself, if you can. It's undoubtedly hard, but possible.
"The right-wing ideal of people "pulling them up by their own bootstraps" is largely bullcrap, "
The left-wing ideal of people being provided for by the 'system' is largely bullcrap. Look at Merhyr Tydfil or, in a different way, Rotherham.
Aside from those, I agree with quite a bit of what you said.
My none political wife's view of the result is that its bad news for those in England as we will need to subsidise Scotland while they vote on things that don't impact them.
And if my wife is thinking that I can safely say that unless the party's resolve the Barnett Formula and Parliamentary voting UKIP will have an absolute field day...
@malcolmg Labour will not be broken, and neither will any other party. To do this would require a military coup. What we have are "ideas" and a brain to work out what works, and what doesn't. Even our ancestors could eventually cope with that concept.
@tombradby: Cameron about to make a statement on plans for more Scottish devolution, but also blocking Scottish MPs from voting on English etc matters.
and dare Ed to vote against either of them...
Unless it includes proposals of how England can decide how its overall budget is allocated without interference from other Home Nation MPs and ensure that party leaders cannot impose the whip on English MPs in such matters then it will be a bag of crap. If you don't control the money you control nothing.
MPs don't decide how budgets are allocated. The Govt determines that. Parliament only decides the overall spending envelope (in the context of determing how revenue is raised), although even that is debateable considering the Govt's ability to borrow to meet shortfalls.
My none political wife's view of the result is that its bad news for those in England as we will need to subsidise Scotland while they vote on things that don't impact them.
And if my wife is thinking that I can safely say that unless the party's resolve the Barnett Formula and Parliamentary voting UKIP will have an absolute field day...
Yep that's the thing my other half is most unhappy about and she will be voting UKIP ( she cannot stand Cameron!).
Well, I though Ms Sturgeon made some sensible and graceful remarks. Wonder if she’ll soon take over from Salmond! Personally as some one living in England but of Welsh descent, I feel somewhat disappointed but somewhat relieved. Disappointed that a Celtic nation won’t have it’s own UN seat and be looking after it’s own affair, in so far as anyone can in the modern world, but relieved that we will have “normal”politics now. I realise keeping The Vow is going to cause a lot of sometimes acrimonious discussion, but at least we’ll be doing it together.
On the subject of normal politics BBC Essex news had a piece yesterday on the Clacton by-election. Apparently a hot topic is Essex County Council’s turning off of street lights late at night. Carswell criticised the County Council for being a “Tory Fiefdom”.
Regarding federalism. I've heard several suggestions now of regional English parliaments alongside the existing Scottish Welsh and NI bodies. Hang on guys, the solution to the almost break up of the UK is not the break up of England....
It's now in Cameron's interest to create discord among the parties in deciding on the exact nature of the devolution. If we go into the GE with it still very much in the air, Scotland is more likely to want SNP MPs to represent them in negotiations. If it all looks pretty well wrapped up, then it's much more likely SNP seats will leak to Labour
@tombradby: Cameron about to make a statement on plans for more Scottish devolution, but also blocking Scottish MPs from voting on English etc matters.
and dare Ed to vote against either of them...
Unless it includes proposals of how England can decide how its overall budget is allocated without interference from other Home Nation MPs and ensure that party leaders cannot impose the whip on English MPs in such matters then it will be a bag of crap. If you don't control the money you control nothing.
Or in other words, Cameron to announce that there will be no agreement on constitutional change this parliament. So that's the pledge in the bin, and with Highland yet to declare will it be in the bin even before the final result is declared?
Regarding federalism. I've heard several suggestions now of regional English parliaments alongside the existing Scottish Welsh and NI bodies. Hang on guys, the solution to the almost break up of the UK is not the break up of England....
@malcolmg Labour will not be broken, and neither will any other party. To do this would require a military coup. What we have are "ideas" and a brain to work out what works, and what doesn't. Even our ancestors could eventually cope with that concept.
Labour have been broken all my life, except in filling their own pockets.
My none political wife's view of the result is that its bad news for those in England as we will need to subsidise Scotland while they vote on things that don't impact them.
And if my wife is thinking that I can safely say that unless the party's resolve the Barnett Formula and Parliamentary voting UKIP will have an absolute field day...
Yep that's the thing my other half is most unhappy about and she will be voting UKIP ( she cannot stand Cameron!).
One other thing I should say is that I think its the first political thing I remember her saying in the past 25 years...
@tombradby: Cameron about to make a statement on plans for more Scottish devolution, but also blocking Scottish MPs from voting on English etc matters.
and dare Ed to vote against either of them...
Unless it includes proposals of how England can decide how its overall budget is allocated without interference from other Home Nation MPs and ensure that party leaders cannot impose the whip on English MPs in such matters then it will be a bag of crap. If you don't control the money you control nothing.
Or in other words, Cameron to announce that there will be no agreement on constitutional change this parliament. So that's the pledge in the bin, and with Highland yet to declare will it be in the bin even before the final result is declared?
I hope so , the sooner we see the Labour creeps being shown up as being used as dumplings by the Tories the better. Cameron may actually be much smarter than he appears to be. Scotland thrashed , labour soon to be seen as the bad guys as Scottish budgets get slashed and MP's not allowed to vote in Westminster. One can only hope for a Tory victory in 2015.
Wales has an assembly not a parliament because its a nation not a country. Why isn't Wales on the UK flag? It is - the English flag which Wales is a principality of. But that's OK, it still keeps its assembly under a federal system.
How would you see a federal state? What would it mean in reality if one member of the federation had 85% of the population and a commensurate number of representatives in the senate?
Simples - the lower house elects MPs based on population size. The upper house elects equal numbers per nation regardless of population size. Like in America.
Wales has an assembly not a parliament because its a nation not a country. Why isn't Wales on the UK flag? It is - the English flag which Wales is a principality of. But that's OK, it still keeps its assembly under a federal system.
How would you see a federal state? What would it mean in reality if one member of the federation had 85% of the population and a commensurate number of representatives in the senate?
You would need a system similar to the US where the senate is equal on states, and the House is based on population.
There are 50 states, and I'm sure that overall that ends up reasonably balanced. Can't see the same being true with only 3/4 states in uk!?
It happens in a similar way in Jersey (Channel Islands) too with the parishes so the theory does actually scale.
Regarding federalism. I've heard several suggestions now of regional English parliaments alongside the existing Scottish Welsh and NI bodies. Hang on guys, the solution to the almost break up of the UK is not the break up of England....
It's embarrassing how so few people are prepared to answer the West Lothian question. There are about 6 possible suggestions on Wikipedia.
All sorts of 'I don't know we shouldn't rush into it' bullshit or I will let my leader speak or we need to form some commitee to look into it. Pathetic. Also disappointing Andrew Neil of all people didn't even challenge Redwood more directly on the question of English 1st minister / English prime minister and what would happen if the Tories has an English majority but Labour have a UK majority. These are obvious questions.
It is not clear whether this outcome is a democratic mandate for more or less devolution than the status quo. Not quite sure why everyone seems to be assuming it must be more. After all the English and Welsh weren't consulted so what was expressed in the GE manifestos ought to stand.
Gordon Brown saved the day with a magnificant speech though it was probably Bank of Scotland, Standard Life, Asda and Next that turned out some of the no voters. Difficult to see how a scotsman could become UK prime minister in the future though.
Come on cameron... Finally stick up for us south of the border...
Cameron should be magnanimous in victory. Salmond will now have to dance to his tune.
You're kidding aren't you? They are already moving on. Salmond has lost the battle but not yet the war by any means (and I say this as an Englishman). He's got the whole Devomax game to play knowing Cameron and Downing Street are very poor at the game.
For example perhaps he might commit to give the final decision on acceptance of Devomax to the Scottish people (with a view to offering another independence vote if they turn it down) with another referendum. Who knows what divides in the Unionists such a ploy might achieve. If I were Salmond getting 44% of the vote or thereabouts I wouldn't give up.
Not only that but if he offers Scotland another referendum then Westminster and Cardiff will be obliged to do so as well. Westminster would have a seizure. Salmond can cause all sorts of mayhem yet!
Regarding federalism. I've heard several suggestions now of regional English parliaments alongside the existing Scottish Welsh and NI bodies. Hang on guys, the solution to the almost break up of the UK is not the break up of England....
No-one wants regional English parliaments.
Plenty of people in the political class do, which is why the idea keeps cropping up in various forms.
No matter what happens, it's going to be really messy going forward.
Regarding federalism. I've heard several suggestions now of regional English parliaments alongside the existing Scottish Welsh and NI bodies. Hang on guys, the solution to the almost break up of the UK is not the break up of England....
No-one wants regional English parliaments.
Yes they do. Having regional parliaments doesn't mean Germany or America aren't countries. You could have an arrangement at Westminster to effectively have an English parliament and then regional assemblies with some devolution below that. Devolving power from 60m people to 50m is pointless
Come on cameron... Finally stick up for us south of the border...
Cameron should be magnanimous in victory. Salmond will now have to dance to his tune.
You're kidding aren't you? They are already moving on. Salmond has lost the battle but not yet the war by any means (and I say this as an Englishman). He's got the whole Devomax game to play knowing Cameron and Downing Street are very poor at the game.
For example perhaps he might commit to give the final decision on acceptance of Devomax to the Scottish people (with a view to offering another independence vote if they turn it down) with another referendum. Who knows what divides in the Unionists such a ploy might achieve. If I were Salmond getting 44% of the vote or thereabouts I wouldn't give up.
Not only that but if he offers Scotland another referendum then Westminster and Cardiff will be obliged to do so as well. Westminster would have a seizure. Salmond can cause all sorts of mayhem yet!
So 'poor at the game' that they held a coalition together for nearly five years; won the AV vote and helped win the independence referendum.
Some numpty on R5L claiming the no vote is all the BBC's fault.
Nothing to do with the terrible No campaign, where there were massive questions they could only answer with bluster.
As a side issue, the BOOers need to learn from this.
Despite your efforts to belittle secessionists from the European Union I do not think their leading lights equate to some numpty on Radio 5.
In any case when it comes to blaming everyone else surely the Tories currently are the experts at that. They can't implement the policies they want because of the Libdems. They won't win the election because of the Libdems and UKIP. They can't do what they want about immigration because of the EU. Is there anything that the Tories have failed in that actually is their fault?
Regarding federalism. I've heard several suggestions now of regional English parliaments alongside the existing Scottish Welsh and NI bodies. Hang on guys, the solution to the almost break up of the UK is not the break up of England....
No-one wants regional English parliaments.
Yes they do. Having regional parliaments doesn't mean Germany or America aren't countries. You could have an arrangement at Westminster to effectively have an English parliament and then regional assemblies with some devolution below that. Devolving power from 60m people to 50m is pointless
Devolve to county councils, not invented regions, if there is a mandate for change.
It's embarrassing how so few people are prepared to answer the West Lothian question. There are about 6 possible suggestions on Wikipedia.
All sorts of 'I don't know we shouldn't rush into it' bullshit or I will let my leader speak or we need to form some commitee to look into it. Pathetic. Also disappointing Andrew Neil of all people didn't even challenge Redwood more directly on the question of English 1st minister / English prime minister and what would happen if the Tories has an English majority but Labour have a UK majority. These are obvious questions.
It is not clear whether this outcome is a democratic mandate for more or less devolution than the status quo. Not quite sure why everyone seems to be assuming it must be more. After all the English and Welsh weren't consulted so what was expressed in the GE manifestos ought to stand.
Gordon Brown saved the day with a magnificant speech though it was probably Bank of Scotland, Standard Life, Asda and Next that turned out some of the no voters. Difficult to see how a scotsman could become UK prime minister in the future though.
Gordon Brown's earlier entry to (or takeover of) the No campaign was probably more important: his was the only positive voice (and the business leaders you cite reinforced the negative message that already defined Better Together) and it looks as if he was also responsible for setting "The Vow" in train.
George Osborne must also take a bow. What looked like political spite in denying Brown the IMF post was clearly the Chancellor's typical strategic genius, in keeping the man who had saved the world available to save the union.
Regarding federalism. I've heard several suggestions now of regional English parliaments alongside the existing Scottish Welsh and NI bodies. Hang on guys, the solution to the almost break up of the UK is not the break up of England....
No-one wants regional English parliaments.
Yes they do. Having regional parliaments doesn't mean Germany or America aren't countries. You could have an arrangement at Westminster to effectively have an English parliament and then regional assemblies with some devolution below that. Devolving power from 60m people to 50m is pointless
Devolve to county councils, not invented regions, if there is a mandate for change.
Or to England as an entirety.
No point devolving to the country in the Union with the most seats and population. County councils would work fine, though.
Some numpty on R5L claiming the no vote is all the BBC's fault.
Nothing to do with the terrible No campaign, where there were massive questions they could only answer with bluster.
As a side issue, the BOOers need to learn from this.
Despite your efforts to belittle secessionists from the European Union I do not think their leading lights equate to some numpty on Radio 5.
In any case when it comes to blaming everyone else surely the Tories currently are the experts at that. They can't implement the policies they want because of the Libdems. They won't win the election because of the Libdems and UKIP. They can't do what they want about immigration because of the EU. Is there anything that the Tories have failed in that actually is their fault?
I'm not trying to 'belittle secessionists'. I'm saying the Scottish referendum has failed, and that sensible BOOers will be looking at the reasons it failed, and work out how they can address similar potential flaws for any future referendum.
For instance, the Yes campaign's inability to answer the currency question was a gaping hole in their armour. BOOers need to work out what the weak points in their argument are and develop solid answers.
Stupid BOOers will assume that people will just follow them because they are right.
@tombradby: Cameron about to make a statement on plans for more Scottish devolution, but also blocking Scottish MPs from voting on English etc matters.
and dare Ed to vote against either of them...
Unless it includes proposals of how England can decide how its overall budget is allocated without interference from other Home Nation MPs and ensure that party leaders cannot impose the whip on English MPs in such matters then it will be a bag of crap. If you don't control the money you control nothing.
Or in other words, Cameron to announce that there will be no agreement on constitutional change this parliament. So that's the pledge in the bin, and with Highland yet to declare will it be in the bin even before the final result is declared?
I hope so , the sooner we see the Labour creeps being shown up as being used as dumplings by the Tories the better. Cameron may actually be much smarter than he appears to be. Scotland thrashed , labour soon to be seen as the bad guys as Scottish budgets get slashed and MP's not allowed to vote in Westminster. One can only hope for a Tory victory in 2015.
Finally agree with you there, Malc. I always thought you were a big softy at heart. Enjoy your well-earned holiday, and I'm sorry for you that the result didn't go your way.
Come on cameron... Finally stick up for us south of the border...
Cameron should be magnanimous in victory. Salmond will now have to dance to his tune.
You're kidding aren't you? They are already moving on. Salmond has lost the battle but not yet the war by any means (and I say this as an Englishman). He's got the whole Devomax game to play knowing Cameron and Downing Street are very poor at the game.
For example perhaps he might commit to give the final decision on acceptance of Devomax to the Scottish people (with a view to offering another independence vote if they turn it down) with another referendum. Who knows what divides in the Unionists such a ploy might achieve. If I were Salmond getting 44% of the vote or thereabouts I wouldn't give up.
Not only that but if he offers Scotland another referendum then Westminster and Cardiff will be obliged to do so as well. Westminster would have a seizure. Salmond can cause all sorts of mayhem yet!
So 'poor at the game' that they held a coalition together for nearly five years; won the AV vote and helped win the independence referendum.
Yes, they're obviously really poor at the game.
1) Its not hard to hold a coalition together when your partners are facing electoral destruction (turkeys rarely vote for Christmas)
2) As The Av Referendum Campaign Director highlighted it was the work of Labour Party Officials and their network (and not least forcing Cameron into allowing Nick Clegg to become a target) that won it for no. Cameron only put up the cash and almost blew it being loyal to his little friend Nicky.
3) Given that Scotland is virtually a Tory free zone in Parliamentary terms I don't think Cameron has much claim on that victory either.
Its not about devolving power to England, its how to balance off the powers already devolved elsewhere. Yes there is demand for localism in England, but that needs to be part of zEngland not instead of it. Peter Hain said let's have regional English parliaments in a Federal UK - NO. England needs a voice, we don't all agree with each other but we are a nation.
Westminster doesn't work I'm its current form - halfway fudge where we elect a UK parliament but MPs from the nations are excluded from most legislative votes is stupid. You want English MPs voting on English bills have an English parliament. Then let councils run their areas without Westminster handcuffs or "we cut your money you get the blame" as the current parliament have done.
I'm British and I'm pleased that Scotland is staying. But I'm also English, and at the moment its bizarre that everyone else has a parliament and we don't. We need a new system, but that's going to take longer to create than Burns Night. The Pledge was a stupid lie. It won't happen, it practically can't happen. No agreement to vote on before Parliament prorogues, Scotland screeches betrayal, it all starts again.
Come on cameron... Finally stick up for us south of the border...
Cameron should be magnanimous in victory. Salmond will now have to dance to his tune.
You're kidding aren't you? They are already moving on. Salmond has lost the battle but not yet the war by any means (and I say this as an Englishman). He's got the whole Devomax game to play knowing Cameron and Downing Street are very poor at the game.
For example perhaps he might commit to give the final decision on acceptance of Devomax to the Scottish people (with a view to offering another independence vote if they turn it down) with another referendum. Who knows what divides in the Unionists such a ploy might achieve. If I were Salmond getting 44% of the vote or thereabouts I wouldn't give up.
Not only that but if he offers Scotland another referendum then Westminster and Cardiff will be obliged to do so as well. Westminster would have a seizure. Salmond can cause all sorts of mayhem yet!
So 'poor at the game' that they held a coalition together for nearly five years; won the AV vote and helped win the independence referendum.
Yes, they're obviously really poor at the game.
2) As The Av Referendum Campaign Director highlighted it was the work of Labour Party Officials and their network (and not least forcing Cameron into allowing Nick Clegg to become a target) that won it for no. Cameron only put up the cash and almost blew it being loyal to his little friend Nicky.
That must be why Downing Street had to bail them out, when it became clear that Glasgow had f'cked up.
@Scott_P Or next year if they don't sort it out in a way that we are all comfortable with? People know something is "wrong" we need to sort it out quickly?
Dave faces a career and election winning / losing choice now: Do the right thing by England or don't. On the pessimistic side - Dave's a wet blanket with the killer instincts of dodo. On the positive side - he'll have his whole party and all of England baying for him to include EVFEL in the Vow legislation. If he does he'll win the election, deal a body blow to Labour in perpetuity and severely limit the deep damage UKIP will inflict on the Tories absent EVFEL. There's really no downside.
You could see the weight being relieved from Camerons shoulders as he walked back into No.10. He gambled and after a pannicky last week of the campaign, independence was rejected. But the next bit that will be difficult is English Tory MP' demanding that the West Lothian question is dealt with.
Comments
and dare Ed to vote against either of them...
I'm very, very cynical about federalism and devolution.
It will be the same country to me, the landscape will not have changed much, and my friends will still be my friends, except of course those Tory scum whose presence I merely put up with. (especially if they are buying the drinks)
Final % predictions ?
I would however like to take the opportunity to send genuine commiserations to Carnyx though, who argued the case for YES with restraint and dignity (unlike certain other people I could mention).
I think if Salmond and co had been, in my opinion honest, with the electorate, and realistically admitted that the next 10-20 years would see tough times before things stable out into a prosperous country rather than presenting best case scenarious that involved things like the Spanish co-operating fully, the rUK weakly agreeing a settlement not in the interests of rUK or Scotland defaulting on their share of UK debt and getting away with it (which was plainly bonkers in my opinion), then it would have been much closer.
As to Malcolm - What you sow you reap mate, and I suspect your going to have to put up with a lot more reaping than my little contribution.
Alan Jenkins @ajjenkins · 1m
Right guys, stick with me. Result for Highland is expected in around an hour! #scotdecides
And if my wife is thinking that I can safely say that unless the party's resolve the Barnett Formula and Parliamentary voting UKIP will have an absolute field day...
Labour will not be broken, and neither will any other party. To do this would require a military coup.
What we have are "ideas" and a brain to work out what works, and what doesn't.
Even our ancestors could eventually cope with that concept.
Personally as some one living in England but of Welsh descent, I feel somewhat disappointed but somewhat relieved. Disappointed that a Celtic nation won’t have it’s own UN seat and be looking after it’s own affair, in so far as anyone can in the modern world, but relieved that we will have “normal”politics now. I realise keeping The Vow is going to cause a lot of sometimes acrimonious discussion, but at least we’ll be doing it together.
On the subject of normal politics BBC Essex news had a piece yesterday on the Clacton by-election. Apparently a hot topic is Essex County Council’s turning off of street lights late at night. Carswell criticised the County Council for being a “Tory Fiefdom”.
\Oh, and malc, enoy your holiday and relax!
Are you buying the drinks?
@nicholaswatt: PM believes #indyref produced clear win and is vindication of his decision to settle the question. Big statement due 7.10am
It'd be fun, though.
I'll be on turnip patrol until you're back ;-)
Not sure about the soundtrack at the end.
All sorts of 'I don't know we shouldn't rush into it' bullshit or I will let my leader speak or we need to form some commitee to look into it. Pathetic. Also disappointing Andrew Neil of all people didn't even challenge Redwood more directly on the question of English 1st minister / English prime minister and what would happen if the Tories has an English majority but Labour have a UK majority. These are obvious questions.
It is not clear whether this outcome is a democratic mandate for more or less devolution than the status quo. Not quite sure why everyone seems to be assuming it must be more. After all the English and Welsh weren't consulted so what was expressed in the GE manifestos ought to stand.
Gordon Brown saved the day with a magnificant speech though it was probably Bank of Scotland, Standard Life, Asda and Next that turned out some of the no voters. Difficult to see how a scotsman could become UK prime minister in the future though.
For example perhaps he might commit to give the final decision on acceptance of Devomax to the Scottish people (with a view to offering another independence vote if they turn it down) with another referendum. Who knows what divides in the Unionists such a ploy might achieve. If I were Salmond getting 44% of the vote or thereabouts I wouldn't give up.
Not only that but if he offers Scotland another referendum then Westminster and Cardiff will be obliged to do so as well. Westminster would have a seizure. Salmond can cause all sorts of mayhem yet!
Nothing to do with the terrible No campaign, where there were massive questions they could only answer with bluster.
As a side issue, the BOOers need to learn from this.
PS: Not sure I want to go through the next 3 year slog with such a bunch of weak willed tossers.
No matter what happens, it's going to be really messy going forward.
You could have an arrangement at Westminster to effectively have an English parliament and then regional assemblies with some devolution below that.
Devolving power from 60m people to 50m is pointless
The SNP one?
It's my last dig, I hope you and your family have a great time Malclom, and everything goes well.
Yes, they're obviously really poor at the game.
In any case when it comes to blaming everyone else surely the Tories currently are the experts at that. They can't implement the policies they want because of the Libdems. They won't win the election because of the Libdems and UKIP. They can't do what they want about immigration because of the EU. Is there anything that the Tories have failed in that actually is their fault?
Or to England as an entirety.
You would have been fine on that one, she was more solid than concrete, and as laid back as a ganja grower.
George Osborne must also take a bow. What looked like political spite in denying Brown the IMF post was clearly the Chancellor's typical strategic genius, in keeping the man who had saved the world available to save the union.
For instance, the Yes campaign's inability to answer the currency question was a gaping hole in their armour. BOOers need to work out what the weak points in their argument are and develop solid answers.
Stupid BOOers will assume that people will just follow them because they are right.
2) As The Av Referendum Campaign Director highlighted it was the work of Labour Party Officials and their network (and not least forcing Cameron into allowing Nick Clegg to become a target) that won it for no. Cameron only put up the cash and almost blew it being loyal to his little friend Nicky.
3) Given that Scotland is virtually a Tory free zone in Parliamentary terms I don't think Cameron has much claim on that victory either.
Westminster doesn't work I'm its current form - halfway fudge where we elect a UK parliament but MPs from the nations are excluded from most legislative votes is stupid. You want English MPs voting on English bills have an English parliament. Then let councils run their areas without Westminster handcuffs or "we cut your money you get the blame" as the current parliament have done.
I'm British and I'm pleased that Scotland is staying. But I'm also English, and at the moment its bizarre that everyone else has a parliament and we don't. We need a new system, but that's going to take longer to create than Burns Night. The Pledge was a stupid lie. It won't happen, it practically can't happen. No agreement to vote on before Parliament prorogues, Scotland screeches betrayal, it all starts again.
Private Eye have the inside track on that story.
My sincere commiserations. On behalf of all the turnips, fannies, jessies, Tory lapdogs and weegie bampots I wish you well. And better luck next time.
Or next year if they don't sort it out in a way that we are all comfortable with?
People know something is "wrong" we need to sort it out quickly?
It will be noteworthy to see how many Conservative MPs remain blinded by their hatred of their leader.
I'd be surprised if his stock doesn't now rise. If it wasn't for that berk Carswell a GE2015 victory would be a certainty from here.
Dave faces a career and election winning / losing choice now: Do the right thing by England or don't.
On the pessimistic side - Dave's a wet blanket with the killer instincts of dodo.
On the positive side - he'll have his whole party and all of England baying for him to include EVFEL in the Vow legislation. If he does he'll win the election, deal a body blow to Labour in perpetuity and severely limit the deep damage UKIP will inflict on the Tories absent EVFEL. There's really no downside.
@WingsScotland: TV just switched itself off. I'm taking the hint. We gave it a shot, folks. Our countrymen and women bottled it and failed us all.
He loves Scotland - but hates the Scots.
Shame on anyone who hung onto his every word.
Where to start?