@ewenmacaskill: Bad news for no campaign in Scottish referendum. YouGov poll not a blip. Next batch of polling expected to confirm shift to independence.
Please someone, remove all the scissors from SeanT's flat, and make sure he stays away from Beachy Head.
lol. I'm sad but I'm hardly suicidal. I am also making money already, out of this disaster.
Really? Disasters are earthquakes, wars, famines and tsunamis with thousands dead.
3% of a population possibly voting for independence, comes nowhere near.
We'll see. After the Soviet Union dissolved, the smallest republics got the greatest decline in GDP, in some cases 90% decline in the economy.
OK then, it could be a disaster for Scotland. The millions wiped off the values of Scottish companies today is a taster.
@ewenmacaskill: Bad news for no campaign in Scottish referendum. YouGov poll not a blip. Next batch of polling expected to confirm shift to independence.
Please someone, remove all the scissors from SeanT's flat, and make sure he stays away from Beachy Head.
lol. I'm sad but I'm hardly suicidal. I am also making money already, out of this disaster.
Really? Disasters are earthquakes, wars, famines and tsunamis with thousands dead.
3% of a population possibly voting for independence, comes nowhere near.
We'll see. After the Soviet Union dissolved, the smallest republics got the greatest decline in GDP, in some cases 90% decline in the economy.
The Soviet GDP figures were highly suspect anyway, but are you really arguing that Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia made a mistake?
@Life_ina_market_town I will put this a simply as I can. The so called "free market" is unsustainable. It has only one concern, and that is to generate wealth, and concentrate that wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Leaving aside the rather obvious fact that most of this "wealth" is fictitious, it tears society apart eventually, or needs ever more draconian laws to stop the majority rebelling, and to contain the growing resentment. Now, I can understand some of the English being quite happy to serve the "lords of the manor", but the further north you travel, the less people are willing to put up with it. For the simple reason, our fathers and grandfathers (and mothers and grandmothers) have seen where mindless servility leads.
This government seems to be good at the economics and crap at the politics.
Cameron and his team have lost Ashcroft, Murdoch, several of his key donors, over half the voluntary party and some of his earliest parliamentary supporters.
He still seems baffled as to why - it's always the fault of the ex-supporters, never him, and the only retort seems to be 'yeah, but we're better at The Money than Labour would be'
That's not enough.
Perhaps you could explain. Personally I find it absolutely baffling too, given that this is the best government in living memory other than Maggie's. The only explanation seems to be some childish dislike of Cameron personally, because (we are told) he hasn't been sufficiently charming to sections of the party, which seems a very odd basis on which to elect a Labour government at a time when everything is moving in the right direction.
I think Cameron does two things: his default mode is autopilot and doesn't really pick sides, until there is a problem. Then he does whatever is most politically expedient without thinking through the long-term consequences. He does this because he has no strong beliefs or principles. Therefore he's moved from a position from where he's progressively alienated constituency after constituency as this phenomena has played out over the last few years. Because he tries to reactively satisfy everyone, and the end point from him isn't clear, people have concluded he doesn't really stand for anything.
I think he also combines this with astonishingly naive people management. Apart from his close friends he loses interest once the problem has been 'fixed' so those on the losing side feel used and unappreciated. Completely anecdotal I've also heard he ignores the usual pleasantries of saying 'hello' and 'how are you?' to backbenchers, supporters and staff - he never, for example, speaks to the HoC staff or his chaffeur as Maggie did. So it feels a bit like he chooses to live in his own bubble and that everyone should be happy with that by right. Not surprisingly some find this very rude.
When you combine the two, you have a toxic mix. He looks and sounds like a leader without actually being one.
I have been saying on here for years Cameron is not a leader, he cannot lead, people do not want to follow him. For a start if you want to lead you have to know where you want to go and the people you want to follow you have to trust you. Cameron fails on both.
@Life_ina_market_town I will put this a simply as I can. The so called "free market" is unsustainable. It has only one concern, and that is to generate wealth, and concentrate that wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Leaving aside the rather obvious fact that most of this "wealth" is fictitious, it tears society apart eventually, or needs ever more draconian laws to stop the majority to contain the growing resentment. Now, I can understand some the English being quite happy to serve the "lords of the manor", but the further north you travel, the less people are willing to put up with it. For the simple reason, our fathers and grandfathers (and mothers and grandmothers) have seen where mindless servility leads.
The "free market" has resulted us being about twenty times better off than we were 250 years ago. Would you really prefer a pre-industrial standard of living?
Good governments do not preside over the break-ups of the countries they are supposed to run. The end of the Union is what this one will be remembered for.
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Far be it from me to leap to the defence of a former and aspirant Labour MP, but surely the concept of "Britishness" is robust enough to survive the political separation of 8% of the population of the UK (some of whom did not regard themselves as "British" in the first place?
I was born in Scotland and am both Scottish and British - I do not suffer from the inferiority complex that drives some of my countrymen to despise the English - we all share this windy rock in the North Atlantic, and have achieved astonishing and heroic things together. The global lingua Franca is ours - as is much of the democratic world's infrastructure - compare and contrast the fates of our Empire with others''.
And this will somehow be destroyed because a bit over 3% of the UK's population vote to change the way they are governed?
I imagine the term "British" will be entirely lost, other than for geography, and the term "UK" will be used as an adjective for the rUK.
Nonsense.
Many non-British born and non-white Britons prefer "British" - so it will survive and prosper...
I hope you're right, but I can't see it. We'd need to keep "Britain" in the name of the state somehow. Maybe the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland.
"Great Britain" is a geographical term (to differentiate vs Brittany) so as we'd still have over two thirds of it, we can cheerfully keep it - and we remain united, and a kingdom.
Name stays the same.
End of.
It's not like the old title was "United KingdomS...."
@ewenmacaskill: Bad news for no campaign in Scottish referendum. YouGov poll not a blip. Next batch of polling expected to confirm shift to independence.
Please someone, remove all the scissors from SeanT's flat, and make sure he stays away from Beachy Head.
lol. I'm sad but I'm hardly suicidal. I am also making money already, out of this disaster.
Really? Disasters are earthquakes, wars, famines and tsunamis with thousands dead.
3% of a population possibly voting for independence, comes nowhere near.
We'll see. After the Soviet Union dissolved, the smallest republics got the greatest decline in GDP, in some cases 90% decline in the economy.
The Soviet GDP figures were highly suspect anyway, but are you really arguing that Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia made a mistake?
Well they score in the middle of the pack. Ironically Belarus kept the soviet system and they are the champions of post soviet economic development. Moldova and Georgia saw the worst declines.
The biggest effect was a complete collapse of trade, as customers and producers found themselves in opposite borders, even if in the first few years there was free movement and a common currency among the post soviet states.
@Life_ina_market_town I will put this a simply as I can. The so called "free market" is unsustainable. It has only one concern, and that is to generate wealth, and concentrate that wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Leaving aside the rather obvious fact that most of this "wealth" is fictitious, it tears society apart eventually, or needs ever more draconian laws to stop the majority rebelling, and to contain the growing resentment. Now, I can understand some of the English being quite happy to serve the "lords of the manor", but the further north you travel, the less people are willing to put up with it. For the simple reason, our fathers and grandfathers (and mothers and grandmothers) have seen where mindless servility leads.
Well if this morning is anything to go by with Scottish companies seeing their share price slide I wouldn't be too worried about the free market because the levels of corporate flight will be likely to be sufficient to ensure that other than hairdressers and taxi drivers the only serious employer in Scotland will be the Edinburgh government.
The question is in the aftermath of such a flight how would Edinburgh stop all the talented people draining out of the country too?
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Cameron is voter-repellent in Scotland. To that extent he is to blame, if Scotland votes Yes. But, Labour have to bear their share of the blame.
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Cameron is voter-repellent in Scotland. To that extent he is to blame, if Scotland votes Yes. But, Labour have to bear their share of the blame.
Miliband has worse ratings in Scotland than Cameron....
'But after mouthing off about the Labour Party, it’s only fair that I make a personal declaration as to where my own politics lie today. Like most people, I’ve moved away from my tartan Tory perception of the SNP and accept it as a benign, bourgeois party of the centre-left. Yes, it’s nakedly opportunist, but that factor certainly doesn’t distinguish it in modern politics, and its fairly narrow goal of Scottish independence makes it harder for it to sell out. Nonetheless, its not my party, I’ve never voted for them and would find it hard to do so, for the same reasons I can no longer vote Labour and will obviously never vote Conservative – it’s not in my internationalist DNA. Having long given up on parties, I’m stuck with having my political aspirations for these islands placed squarely in the hands of a new, broadly-based, grass roots campaign led by a different generation, and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I’m now a dedicated ‘phase three’ yes man: let’s get it sorted out. But I want as many of my old buddies, and as many real Labour people on that journey as possible, and for bigger reasons than to deliver a yes vote for social progress on the 18th. That, as I’ve said, is only part of the process. I want them onside, because the core values that they believe in; fairness, justice and democracy, are the only values that a new Scotland -and a new England- can be constructed on.'
Not only do I now have to face up to the reality of Scotland leaving the Union (without realising what it was doing), I'm actually beginning to think Nigel Farage could be in No 10 by this time next year if he plays it right. By the end of next week, the Tories will join Labour and the LDs as being officially "totally f**ked". Who else does that leave to mop up the discontent south of the border and clean up next May?
@Sean_F It's nothing to do with industrialization, The "free market" as a philosophy is as nutty in its own way as the Islamic caliphate. Yes, markets have a place, but they have no conscience, and practically no loyalty to any population or country, those links vanished years ago. It is now a self serving entity that distorts rather than simplifies life.
@Carnyx The usual ignorance posing as informed reason. While I support the idea of people uniting in a common cause, the idea of a "magnificent" and "infallible" UK is starting to give me that queasy feeling you get before a world cup. Britain is broken, and has been for a long time, the sooner people stop the nostalgia for a past long gone, the sooner it can be mended. (the same can be said for quite a few on the "yes" side as well)
Thanks for taking the trouble to reply. I've also noticed a very different attitude to the past vs the future in various parties in the debate, to put it mildly.
Not only do I now have to face up to the reality of Scotland leaving the Union (without realising what it was doing), I'm actually beginning to think Nigel Farage could be in No 10 by this time next year if he plays it right. By the end of next week, the Tories will join Labour and the LDs as being officially "totally f**ked". Who else does that leave to mop up the discontent south of the border and clean up next May?
I might emigrate....
I think even in these extraordinary circumstances FPTP would stop UKIP gaining enough votes and seats to win outright, however, I do think a Con/UKIP coalition with Farage a DPM is probably looking a likely outcome from this fiasco.
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Cameron is voter-repellent in Scotland. To that extent he is to blame, if Scotland votes Yes. But, Labour have to bear their share of the blame.
Miliband has worse ratings in Scotland than Cameron....
Probably anyone English is now voter-repellent in Scotland. English voters are preventing Scots from having the left wing government that they want. Scottish voters are preventing English voters from getting the right wing government they want.
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Cameron is voter-repellent in Scotland. To that extent he is to blame, if Scotland votes Yes. But, Labour have to bear their share of the blame.
Miliband has worse ratings in Scotland than Cameron....
Quite, which I still can't get my head around. I'm not surprised he's not highly rated, but worse than Mr Cameron?!
I wonder what proportion of people living in England or Wales have never visited Scotland and have no family connections to Scotland? I'm in that (perhaps rare) category myself and I'm wondering if it's why I feel so indifferent to this referendum.
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Cameron is voter-repellent in Scotland. To that extent he is to blame, if Scotland votes Yes. But, Labour have to bear their share of the blame.
Miliband has worse ratings in Scotland than Cameron....
Quite, which I still can't get my head around. I'm not surprised he's not highly rated, but worse than Mr Cameron?!
This also makes the argument that Cameron shouldn't be campaigning in Scotland to save the Union out as rubbish.
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Cameron is voter-repellent in Scotland. To that extent he is to blame, if Scotland votes Yes. But, Labour have to bear their share of the blame.
Miliband has worse ratings in Scotland than Cameron....
Which begs the question what on earth was Ed doing on Scotland last week? After 2011 he knows what happens when he "does the north" and starts lecturing SLAB voters?
If the Cyberunionists can tolerate Ireland being an independent nation, why can't they do the same for Scotland - should they vote YES, natch?
We're just sad that a successful and rather magnificent country is being broken up, and we are also fucking scared about the economic and political consequences, which will be initially grim for everyone.
You're speaking for yourself there. And you don't half over dramaticise on occasion.
Whatever happened to that run on the pound that was supposed to start today? It is a couple of points off but I would hardly call that a run. Far, far too much drama being hawked about.
It's at a ten month low. If the next poll is "bad" it will fall further. After a YES vote experts predict a depreciation of 10%. Maybe 20%. So inflation will go up.
And that's just the £.
This isn't scare-mongering, it is basic economics. Markets hate instability and we are about to do the most destabilising thing imaginable.
You might be right Mr. T, but you did yesterday predict a run on the pound starting today. That hasn't happened. A gentle downward drift that has been going on for a while has continued, probably got sod all to do with the Scotland business. The worst the Telegraph could come with this morning, and this under a headline of "Sterling tumbles after poll shows 51pc support Scottish exit", is some bloke from a Frog bank predicting a 3 to 5 percent fall in the event of a yes vote. I think I'll hold off from the panic just yet.
The run on the £ started last week. It's a jog, but it might become a sprint. If you don't believe this is related, at least in part, to indyref, look at the damn charts. Spot where the first, sudden, recent drop is. It comes after the YouGov poll showing a NO lead down to 6.
Then you see the 2nd drop, this weekend, as the next YouGov poll shows a YES lead.
I'm presuming you have eyes to see this clear and clinching evidence, so you will forget your nonsense that the weakness of sterling has "probably got sod all to do with the Scotland business".
Not really, the decline in the value of the pound started around about the end of the first week in August. So nothing to do with any Scottish poll. Measured from there the pound has drifted down from about 1.67 to about 1.61, not what I would call a run, and the pound is still trading around about its long term average against the dollar. Not great but not really a a cause for concern.
Bev You are making the classic error that this is down to anti Englishness. It's not.
I have been on the receiving end too many times and it makes an impression that is hard to shake off. I realise that one person's experience is not statistically important yet my experiences are what I have to base my feelings on. I know it is a minority of people, but it is not an insignificant minority.
The daft thing is that I am not even English, I just live in England.
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Cameron is voter-repellent in Scotland. To that extent he is to blame, if Scotland votes Yes. But, Labour have to bear their share of the blame.
Miliband has worse ratings in Scotland than Cameron....
Probably anyone English is now voter-repellent in Scotland. English voters are preventing Scots from having the left wing government that they want. Scottish voters are preventing English voters from getting the right wing government they want.
You mean the right-wing government that Southern England wants.
Good governments do not preside over the break-ups of the countries they are supposed to run. The end of the Union is what this one will be remembered for.
It fits a perfect story. Two parties coming together for the "National Good" presiding over the break-up of that nation.
The Lib Dems even have roughly the same proportion of MPs at Westminster as Scotland has has of population of the UK.
I wonder what proportion of people living in England or Wales have never visited Scotland and have no family connections to Scotland? I'm in that (perhaps rare) category myself and I'm wondering if it's why I feel so indifferent to this referendum.
How are you headless chickens getting on in your collapsing coup this evening?
Cluck, cluck!
I'll be sad to see the end of Britain, but we'll still be the 7th largest economy in the world. Where will Scotland be?
Ever been to Norway? Don't think I've ever seen a glum Norwegian. They are too busy tanking up their flashy motorboats and booking extraordinarily long exotic holidays.
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Cameron is voter-repellent in Scotland. To that extent he is to blame, if Scotland votes Yes. But, Labour have to bear their share of the blame.
Miliband has worse ratings in Scotland than Cameron....
Probably anyone English is now voter-repellent in Scotland. English voters are preventing Scots from having the left wing government that they want. Scottish voters are preventing English voters from getting the right wing government they want.
You mean the right-wing government that Southern England wants.
Current polling suggests that within England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, the Conservatives, UKIP, and Unionists would win c.50% of the vote. But, yes, that combined figure would be higher in the South than in the North.
The people who must be most worried are all those who do work for the Ministry of Defence in Scotland.
The demand for a FUK government to bring that work back to England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be immediate and overwhelming. Why the F should we spend our hard-earned money subsidising Scottish shipbuilders? Insane. No country permits that.
Pity those workers, and their families.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport, though.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport... if they want to spend the rest of their lives living next door to 200 nuclear warheads. Whoopee!
How are you headless chickens getting on in your collapsing coup this evening?
Cluck, cluck!
I'll be sad to see the end of Britain, but we'll still be the 7th largest economy in the world. Where will Scotland be?
Ever been to Norway? Don't think I've ever seen a glum Norwegian. They are too busy tanking up their flashy motorboats and booking extraordinarily long exotic holidays.
It is quality that counts, not size.
I'd rather have a nice mansion than a super done up bedsit. Certainly more than a super done up bedsit in a place with crappy weather.
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Cameron is voter-repellent in Scotland. To that extent he is to blame, if Scotland votes Yes. But, Labour have to bear their share of the blame.
Miliband has worse ratings in Scotland than Cameron....
Quite, which I still can't get my head around. I'm not surprised he's not highly rated, but worse than Mr Cameron?!
This also makes the argument that Cameron shouldn't be campaigning in Scotland to save the Union out as rubbish.
Ah, now that is a good point ...
... and yet I am reading in the media that Mr C has no plans etc etc. At least he'd be respected for having the guts to do it even if he fails - I for one would. And it's too late to worry about debates (if one follows the Better Together argument that it's dreadful to have debates within the purdah period, and so Mr Darling can't be expected to fight bareknuckle with that nasty Alicsammon from down the road).
Good governments do not preside over the break-ups of the countries they are supposed to run. The end of the Union is what this one will be remembered for.
I love the way the Left always blame the Cameron and Tories for their own actions. IndyRef is a good example, but my favourite is the hacking scandal, which of course was absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Cameron: it was carried out by a Labour-supporting newspaper group, under a Labour government with a massive majority, when Cameron was an obscure back-bencher, was investigated three times by Labour-appointed officials and by police led by a Labour-supporting Commissioner, who each time decided there was nothing widespread to investigate, and somehow it's Cameron's fault.
The people who must be most worried are all those who do work for the Ministry of Defence in Scotland.
The demand for a FUK government to bring that work back to England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be immediate and overwhelming. Why the F should we spend our hard-earned money subsidising Scottish shipbuilders? Insane. No country permits that.
Pity those workers, and their families.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport, though.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport... if they want to spend the rest of their lives living next door to 200 nuclear warheads. Whoopee!
Given their long naval tradition, I doubt if it will be a problem for them. They'll get plenty more jobs.
@Life_ina_market_town I will put this a simply as I can. The so called "free market" is unsustainable. It has only one concern, and that is to generate wealth, and concentrate that wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Leaving aside the rather obvious fact that most of this "wealth" is fictitious, it tears society apart eventually, or needs ever more draconian laws to stop the majority rebelling, and to contain the growing resentment. Now, I can understand some of the English being quite happy to serve the "lords of the manor", but the further north you travel, the less people are willing to put up with it. For the simple reason, our fathers and grandfathers (and mothers and grandmothers) have seen where mindless servility leads.
Well if this morning is anything to go by with Scottish companies seeing their share price slide I wouldn't be too worried about the free market because the levels of corporate flight will be likely to be sufficient to ensure that other than hairdressers and taxi drivers the only serious employer in Scotland will be the Edinburgh government.
The question is in the aftermath of such a flight how would Edinburgh stop all the talented people draining out of the country too?
@tombradby: Exclusive; Westminster offer to Scotland will be the power to raise income tax to increase welfare spending.
@tombradby: Westminster will set a minimum welfare spend, Scotland will have the power to tax more and spend more to, say, axe the so-called bedroom tax
That has Osborne's fingerprints all over it... it's a good move.
LOL, a George special, we keep your money but you can raise taxes to get rid of our iniquitous taxes. A winner for sure.
Re the Nuclear weapons system Carwyn Jones has already said they would be welcome in Wales (we need the jobs). Where they would go is another matter, Milford Haven the natural choice is covered in gas terminals.
@tombradby: Exclusive; Westminster offer to Scotland will be the power to raise income tax to increase welfare spending.
@tombradby: Westminster will set a minimum welfare spend, Scotland will have the power to tax more and spend more to, say, axe the so-called bedroom tax
Errh? The Scots can already raise income tax levels, by as much as 3p I believe.
Mind you, this is the main parties admitting that 'Devo-Max' should have been on the ballot.
That si long gone, HMRC could not collect it so it was left to die.
The people who must be most worried are all those who do work for the Ministry of Defence in Scotland.
The demand for a FUK government to bring that work back to England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be immediate and overwhelming. Why the F should we spend our hard-earned money subsidising Scottish shipbuilders? Insane. No country permits that.
Pity those workers, and their families.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport, though.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport... if they want to spend the rest of their lives living next door to 200 nuclear warheads. Whoopee!
Given their long naval tradition, I doubt if it will be a problem for them. They'll get plenty more jobs.
They've survived living next to a nuclear weapons before, and most of the time those warheads are at sea.
How are you headless chickens getting on in your collapsing coup this evening?
Cluck, cluck!
I'll be sad to see the end of Britain, but we'll still be the 7th largest economy in the world. Where will Scotland be?
Ever been to Norway? Don't think I've ever seen a glum Norwegian. They are too busy tanking up their flashy motorboats and booking extraordinarily long exotic holidays.
It is quality that counts, not size.
But Scotland isn't Norway. I doubt Norway has anything like the social issues that confront Scotland, nor a huge banking sector. The UK didn't build up a massive wealth fund using North Sea Oil, as Norway has - we blow it all on unemployment and deindustrialisation.
The people who must be most worried are all those who do work for the Ministry of Defence in Scotland.
The demand for a FUK government to bring that work back to England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be immediate and overwhelming. Why the F should we spend our hard-earned money subsidising Scottish shipbuilders? Insane. No country permits that.
Pity those workers, and their families.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport, though.
Are you sure?!
Much of that movement has already happened within our glorious union. Rosyth was closed as a naval base to pander to SW marginals and that was when the Cold War was at deep-freeze levels. More recently Nimrod, RAF bases closed, ASR privatised, Scottish regiments to a single regiment, etc. etc.
As for "[n]o country permits",
(a) dozens of countries buy warships from other countries (b) every ship "built" in Scotland will be chokka with extremely expensive kit from EWNI suppliers - as a quick look at the details of current RN projects will show. Even on purely mercenary grounds alone it is very much in EWNI interest to encourage the construction of lots of frigates - a 10% addition to the production run for Scotland, for instance, will have its effect on unit cost as well as direct profits and work.
The question is, not whether an independent Scotland could eventually become a full EU member, but on what terms and in what timescale.
True - and then there is the question of whether they could actually meet those terms.
One of the terms would be that they protect bank account deposits to the tune of the first €100,000 (£85000). That's hard to do if you haven't got a central bank or lender of last resort, and if the Herfindahl index of your retail banking system is over 3000, with two banks accounting for about 70% of it. That said, both RBS and Lloyds would move south. But rUK isn't going to protect Scottish accounts with rUK-registered banks. (Why should it?)
Lloyds only registered in Scotland after being broken up on EU orders, because it was so appallingly managed. Moving back south might come at great cost. It's not something they could just push a button to do.
I'm sorry, but this is a bullshit story.
In the event of independence, RBS, HBOS, etc., would almost certainly become rUK PLCs, as they have far, far more business in rUK than in Scotland. HBoS is the most exposed, but even there only 8% of its loans are in Scotland. For RBS, it's less than 5%.
RBS, HBoS would set up Scottish subsidiaries that would manage their Scottish operations and loans - and it would only be these that the Scottish government would have to guarantee. The quantity of these would be quite modest, and would be well within the ability of the Scottish government to meet.
Why would someone who works in that area and has knowledge know better than the flapping chickens on here. How dare you try to inject some sense to the subject.
Re the Nuclear weapons system Carwyn Jones has already said they would be welcome in Wales (we need the jobs). Where they would go is another matter, Milford Haven the natural choice is covered in gas terminals.
How are you headless chickens getting on in your collapsing coup this evening?
Cluck, cluck!
I'll be sad to see the end of Britain, but we'll still be the 7th largest economy in the world. Where will Scotland be?
Ever been to Norway? Don't think I've ever seen a glum Norwegian. They are too busy tanking up their flashy motorboats and booking extraordinarily long exotic holidays.
It is quality that counts, not size.
But Scotland isn't Norway. I doubt Norway has anything like the social issues that confront Scotland, nor a huge banking sector. The UK didn't build up a massive wealth fund using North Sea Oil, as Norway has - we blow it all on unemployment and deindustrialisation.
Deindustrialisation saved money, given the subsidies we were giving out. It didn't get money spent on it.
How are you headless chickens getting on in your collapsing coup this evening?
Cluck, cluck!
I'll be sad to see the end of Britain, but we'll still be the 7th largest economy in the world. Where will Scotland be?
Ever been to Norway? Don't think I've ever seen a glum Norwegian. They are too busy tanking up their flashy motorboats and booking extraordinarily long exotic holidays.
It is quality that counts, not size.
But Scotland isn't Norway. I doubt Norway has anything like the social issues that confront Scotland, nor a huge banking sector. The UK didn't build up a massive wealth fund using North Sea Oil, as Norway has - we blow it all on unemployment and deindustrialisation.
Deindustrialisation saved money, given the subsidies we were giving out. It didn't get money spent on it.
Re the Nuclear weapons system Carwyn Jones has already said they would be welcome in Wales (we need the jobs). Where they would go is another matter, Milford Haven the natural choice is covered in gas terminals.
Mr. Dodges, if that's necessary, then fine. Scotland can't vote for independence then try and keep the perks of union.
MD, they will take the best option , it will be CU under a different name for x number of years to allow split of assets etc etc and will be claimed by both sides that they have won and held their ground.
The people who must be most worried are all those who do work for the Ministry of Defence in Scotland.
The demand for a FUK government to bring that work back to England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be immediate and overwhelming. Why the F should we spend our hard-earned money subsidising Scottish shipbuilders? Insane. No country permits that.
Pity those workers, and their families.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport, though.
Are you sure?!
Much of that movement has already happened within our glorious union. Rosyth was closed as a naval base to pander to SW marginals and that was when the Cold War was at deep-freeze levels. More recently Nimrod, RAF bases closed, ASR privatised, Scottish regiments to a single regiment, etc. etc.
As for "[n]o country permits",
(a) dozens of countries buy warships from other countries (b) every ship "built" in Scotland will be chokka with extremely expensive kit from EWNI suppliers - as a quick look at the details of current RN projects will show. Even on purely mercenary grounds alone it is very much in EWNI interest to encourage the construction of lots of frigates - a 10% addition to the production run for Scotland, for instance, will have its effect on unit cost as well as direct profits and work.
Don't fool yourself. BAE yards elsewhere can pick up the work, and will if the MoD tells them to go south.
How are you headless chickens getting on in your collapsing coup this evening?
Cluck, cluck!
I'll be sad to see the end of Britain, but we'll still be the 7th largest economy in the world. Where will Scotland be?
Ever been to Norway? Don't think I've ever seen a glum Norwegian. They are too busy tanking up their flashy motorboats and booking extraordinarily long exotic holidays.
It is quality that counts, not size.
But Scotland isn't Norway. I doubt Norway has anything like the social issues that confront Scotland, nor a huge banking sector. The UK didn't build up a massive wealth fund using North Sea Oil, as Norway has - we blow it all on unemployment and deindustrialisation.
Deindustrialisation saved money, given the subsidies we were giving out. It didn't get money spent on it.
As they say on Wikipedia: citation needed
The mines all closed because we cut off taxpayer subsidies. The selling off of British Leyland etc made the government money.
The people who must be most worried are all those who do work for the Ministry of Defence in Scotland.
The demand for a FUK government to bring that work back to England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be immediate and overwhelming. Why the F should we spend our hard-earned money subsidising Scottish shipbuilders? Insane. No country permits that.
Pity those workers, and their families.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport, though.
Are you sure?!
Much of that movement has already happened within our glorious union. Rosyth was closed as a naval base to pander to SW marginals and that was when the Cold War was at deep-freeze levels. More recently Nimrod, RAF bases closed, ASR privatised, Scottish regiments to a single regiment, etc. etc.
As for "[n]o country permits",
(a) dozens of countries buy warships from other countries (b) every ship "built" in Scotland will be chokka with extremely expensive kit from EWNI suppliers - as a quick look at the details of current RN projects will show. Even on purely mercenary grounds alone it is very much in EWNI interest to encourage the construction of lots of frigates - a 10% addition to the production run for Scotland, for instance, will have its effect on unit cost as well as direct profits and work.
The people who must be most worried are all those who do work for the Ministry of Defence in Scotland.
The demand for a FUK government to bring that work back to England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be immediate and overwhelming. Why the F should we spend our hard-earned money subsidising Scottish shipbuilders? Insane. No country permits that.
Pity those workers, and their families.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport, though.
Are you sure?!
Much of that movement has already happened within our glorious union. Rosyth was closed as a naval base to pander to SW marginals and that was when the Cold War was at deep-freeze levels. More recently Nimrod, RAF bases closed, ASR privatised, Scottish regiments to a single regiment, etc. etc.
As for "[n]o country permits",
(a) dozens of countries buy warships from other countries (b) every ship "built" in Scotland will be chokka with extremely expensive kit from EWNI suppliers - as a quick look at the details of current RN projects will show. Even on purely mercenary grounds alone it is very much in EWNI interest to encourage the construction of lots of frigates - a 10% addition to the production run for Scotland, for instance, will have its effect on unit cost as well as direct profits and work.
Don't fool yourself. BAE yards elsewhere can pick up the work, and will if the MoD tells them to go south.
Mr. F, Wales won't go independent simply because of economics. 3% of UK population, 2% of UK wealth. Wales going solo would see it become vastly poorer overnight.
Mr. G, why would the UK want a currency union? I've never had a satisfactory answer to that. I don't want a currency union. If Scotland wants independence, that's a matter for Scots, but independence means just that.
Mr. Observer, again, would you blame the last Byzantine emperor for the empire's downfall, rather than the Angeli or Andronicus the Terrible?
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Cameron is voter-repellent in Scotland. To that extent he is to blame, if Scotland votes Yes. But, Labour have to bear their share of the blame.
Miliband has worse ratings in Scotland than Cameron....
Probably anyone English is now voter-repellent in Scotland. English voters are preventing Scots from having the left wing government that they want. Scottish voters are preventing English voters from getting the right wing government they want.
You mean the right-wing government that Southern England wants.
Current polling suggests that within England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, the Conservatives, UKIP, and Unionists would win c.50% of the vote. But, yes, that combined figure would be higher in the South than in the North.
Well except of course that if you count Labour/ Libdem/Green votes in 2010, London had the largest left-wing support in sheer numbers of any of the regions just ahead of the North West. The thing is being left-wing is increasingly primarily an urban thing not a northern thing.
There are now figures being quoted on Twitter for tonight's poll.
When was the fieldwork done/when can we expect a poll with a "feedback effect" from YouGov's yes lead?
And those figures are?
50. The first embargo breakers say YES is on 50, which means a small YES lead, or at best a tie (depending on the interpretation). Which is fairly sensational, indeed.
The union is.... well, do your own maths.
I also hear a different number, much greater than 50. Perhaps 50 is with D/K.
What's very clear to me is that the whole Sindy thing has pushed England and Scotland further apart. Just look at PB for a clear demonstration of that. And I'm as guilty as anyone.
If it's a YES there's going to be strong English political imperative to exact some sort of retribution for the pain and hassle and diminution.
If it's a NO it'll be strong Devomax, EV4EL, WLQ - a FUK.
We are a changed country however it goes. And for the better.
How are you headless chickens getting on in your collapsing coup this evening?
Cluck, cluck!
I'll be sad to see the end of Britain, but we'll still be the 7th largest economy in the world. Where will Scotland be?
Ever been to Norway? Don't think I've ever seen a glum Norwegian. They are too busy tanking up their flashy motorboats and booking extraordinarily long exotic holidays.
It is quality that counts, not size.
So the reason Scots want independence is so they can spend all their time outside of Scotland?
Mr. F, Wales won't go independent simply because of economics. 3% of UK population, 2% of UK wealth. Wales going solo would see it become vastly poorer overnight.
Mr. G, why would the UK want a currency union? I've never had a satisfactory answer to that. I don't want a currency union. If Scotland wants independence, that's a matter for Scots, but independence means just that.
That's the biggest irony of this whole vote. Every argument in favour of a currency union is an argument in favour of The Union.
Relax britons, the clunking fister has entered the fray. He'll soon whip those uppity jocks back into line. Then Farage and the Orange order will seal the deal for union.
Good governments do not preside over the break-ups of the countries they are supposed to run. The end of the Union is what this one will be remembered for.
I love the way the Left always blame the Cameron and Tories for their own actions. IndyRef is a good example, but my favourite is the hacking scandal, which of course was absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Cameron: it was carried out by a Labour-supporting newspaper group, under a Labour government with a massive majority, when Cameron was an obscure back-bencher, was investigated three times by Labour-appointed officials and by police led by a Labour-supporting Commissioner, who each time decided there was nothing widespread to investigate, and somehow it's Cameron's fault.
A 307 year old country that has probably had more influence on the history of the world than any other is about to disappear. And it will do so under this government - which thus fails in its primary duty, which is to protect the realm. Is it all this government's fault? Absolutely not. If you have read any of my recent contributions you will see that I blame Labour just as much, if not more. The Westminster elite as a whole has created the environment which has enabled a man and a party selling snake oil to win. But when the history books are written it will be the government of David Cameron that is recorded as the one that lost the Union. And the immensity of that will dwarf anything else that it has or has not achieved. Ed Miliband will be what he is now: a rather pointless footnote.
I had to remove a line from Sir Edric's Temple, actually [available at all good retailers online]. I shan't state where, in case it spoils something for another, but one internal monologue was going to read something like: That's about as tempting an offer as a handjob from Edward Scissorhands.
Unfortunately, I decided that was too much of an anachronism, even for comedy. (Likewise, "The sky was bluer than a drowning smurf" for the follow-up book). If I ever write a contemporary or sci-fi comedy I might use such lines.
Stuart do you know many Norwegians? There are loads in my industry / our offices. They're the most miserable drunk glass-half-empty sods imaginable. Pleasant, comfortable and miserable. Really.
The people who must be most worried are all those who do work for the Ministry of Defence in Scotland.
The demand for a FUK government to bring that work back to England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be immediate and overwhelming. Why the F should we spend our hard-earned money subsidising Scottish shipbuilders? Insane. No country permits that.
Pity those workers, and their families.
Good for Plymouth and Devonport, though.
Are you sure?!
Much of that movement has already happened within our glorious union. Rosyth was closed as a naval base to pander to SW marginals and that was when the Cold War was at deep-freeze levels. More recently Nimrod, RAF bases closed, ASR privatised, Scottish regiments to a single regiment, etc. etc.
As for "[n]o country permits",
(a) dozens of countries buy warships from other countries (b) every ship "built" in Scotland will be chokka with extremely expensive kit from EWNI suppliers - as a quick look at the details of current RN projects will show. Even on purely mercenary grounds alone it is very much in EWNI interest to encourage the construction of lots of frigates - a 10% addition to the production run for Scotland, for instance, will have its effect on unit cost as well as direct profits and work.
Oh gosh, are we back to this again, I thought we had covered all these points before.
The RN never has, doesn't now and never will by complex warships from a foreign supplier.
The next class of ship to be ordered will be the Type 26 Frigates of which, at present, it is intended there shall be 13. The Clyde yards need significant investment if they are to make those ships. At present that investment is on hold. If there is a Yes vote it will be switched to yards in England.
Comments
I will put this a simply as I can. The so called "free market" is unsustainable.
It has only one concern, and that is to generate wealth, and concentrate that wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people.
Leaving aside the rather obvious fact that most of this "wealth" is fictitious, it tears society apart eventually, or needs ever more draconian laws to stop the majority rebelling, and to contain the growing resentment.
Now, I can understand some of the English being quite happy to serve the "lords of the manor", but the further north you travel, the less people are willing to put up with it.
For the simple reason, our fathers and grandfathers (and mothers and grandmothers) have seen where mindless servility leads.
Blair and Labour are to blame. They made separation possible and carved into stone the division of Scotland from the rest of the UK (the same may very well happen if a vile carving up of England into rubbish regional assemblies happens).
Name stays the same.
End of.
It's not like the old title was "United KingdomS...."
Ironically Belarus kept the soviet system and they are the champions of post soviet economic development.
Moldova and Georgia saw the worst declines.
The biggest effect was a complete collapse of trade, as customers and producers found themselves in opposite borders, even if in the first few years there was free movement and a common currency among the post soviet states.
The question is in the aftermath of such a flight how would Edinburgh stop all the talented people draining out of the country too?
http://tinyurl.com/londfkm
Just for Monica.
'But after mouthing off about the Labour Party, it’s only fair that I make a personal declaration as to where my own politics lie today. Like most people, I’ve moved away from my tartan Tory perception of the SNP and accept it as a benign, bourgeois party of the centre-left. Yes, it’s nakedly opportunist, but that factor certainly doesn’t distinguish it in modern politics, and its fairly narrow goal of Scottish independence makes it harder for it to sell out. Nonetheless, its not my party, I’ve never voted for them and would find it hard to do so, for the same reasons I can no longer vote Labour and will obviously never vote Conservative – it’s not in my internationalist DNA. Having long given up on parties, I’m stuck with having my political aspirations for these islands placed squarely in the hands of a new, broadly-based, grass roots campaign led by a different generation, and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I’m now a dedicated ‘phase three’ yes man: let’s get it sorted out. But I want as many of my old buddies, and as many real Labour people on that journey as possible, and for bigger reasons than to deliver a yes vote for social progress on the 18th. That, as I’ve said, is only part of the process. I want them onside, because the core values that they believe in; fairness, justice and democracy, are the only values that a new Scotland -and a new England- can be constructed on.'
I might emigrate....
It's nothing to do with industrialization, The "free market" as a philosophy is as nutty in its own way as the Islamic caliphate.
Yes, markets have a place, but they have no conscience, and practically no loyalty to any population or country, those links vanished years ago.
It is now a self serving entity that distorts rather than simplifies life.
I can't understand what he was thinking...
Cluck, cluck!
The daft thing is that I am not even English, I just live in England.
:-)
Bev.
Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 32m
It's official. No.10 spksman: "the Prime Minister v much welcomes Gordon Brown's announcement today."
Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 30m
No.10 source adds re 'Home Rule' Bill: "this is exactly the sort of thing we have been discussing for some time".
The Lib Dems even have roughly the same proportion of MPs at Westminster as Scotland has has of population of the UK.
(Both will be behind the last country to leave the UK.)
Masterly inactivity is often used as a comedy line but, surprisingly, Clegg's doing a good job of it now regarding the referendum.
It is quality that counts, not size.
I too have been a victim of anti English feeling in Scotland.
But this shift is born not of anti englishness
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opinion/paul-krugman-scots-what-the-heck.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share&_r=0
Apologies if posted earlier.
"If Scottish voters really believe that it’s safe to become a country without a currency, they have been badly misled."
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opinion/paul-krugman-scots-what-the-heck.html?_r=3
... and yet I am reading in the media that Mr C has no plans etc etc. At least he'd be respected for having the guts to do it even if he fails - I for one would. And it's too late to worry about debates (if one follows the Better Together argument that it's dreadful to have debates within the purdah period, and so Mr Darling can't be expected to fight bareknuckle with that nasty Alicsammon from down the road).
When was the fieldwork done/when can we expect a poll with a "feedback effect" from YouGov's yes lead?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-18509639
If you have access to twitter search for "TNS Poll" on "All Tweets", you'll get it soon enough.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-29115298
Much of that movement has already happened within our glorious union. Rosyth was closed as a naval base to pander to SW marginals and that was when the Cold War was at deep-freeze levels. More recently Nimrod, RAF bases closed, ASR privatised, Scottish regiments to a single regiment, etc. etc.
As for "[n]o country permits",
(a) dozens of countries buy warships from other countries
(b) every ship "built" in Scotland will be chokka with extremely expensive kit from EWNI suppliers - as a quick look at the details of current RN projects will show. Even on purely mercenary grounds alone it is very much in EWNI interest to encourage the construction of lots of frigates - a 10% addition to the production run for Scotland, for instance, will have its effect on unit cost as well as direct profits and work.
IMO it's clearly going to be a No vote on that evidence. Although perhaps only thanks to the votes of the over 60s.
"and most of the time those warheads are at sea. "
Failed basic maths Watcher?
Or did you just open your mouth and let your belly rumble?
Mr. G, why would the UK want a currency union? I've never had a satisfactory answer to that. I don't want a currency union. If Scotland wants independence, that's a matter for Scots, but independence means just that.
Perhaps 50 is with D/K.
I have an announcement to make.
Your posts cheer me up.
I used to think I was odd OK pretty weird but yourself and Mr TSE have given me renewed hope that my mind is relatively normal.
Sir Edric obviously created by a very unusual mind indeed.
If it's a YES there's going to be strong English political imperative to exact some sort of retribution for the pain and hassle and diminution.
If it's a NO it'll be strong Devomax, EV4EL, WLQ - a FUK.
We are a changed country however it goes. And for the better.
Hmmmmm........
Then Farage and the Orange order will seal the deal for union.
Rule Britannia,
I had to remove a line from Sir Edric's Temple, actually [available at all good retailers online]. I shan't state where, in case it spoils something for another, but one internal monologue was going to read something like:
That's about as tempting an offer as a handjob from Edward Scissorhands.
Unfortunately, I decided that was too much of an anachronism, even for comedy. (Likewise, "The sky was bluer than a drowning smurf" for the follow-up book). If I ever write a contemporary or sci-fi comedy I might use such lines.
The RN never has, doesn't now and never will by complex warships from a foreign supplier.
The next class of ship to be ordered will be the Type 26 Frigates of which, at present, it is intended there shall be 13. The Clyde yards need significant investment if they are to make those ships. At present that investment is on hold. If there is a Yes vote it will be switched to yards in England.