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The State of the Union, Week 5 – politicalbetting.com

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  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,779
    Speaking of healthcare, the UK is absolutely first rate for private health. I'm in the OneWelbeck centre right now and the consultant was able to pull in my MRI scans from 2021 and 2023 instantly, he rediagnosed them instantly and has come up with a hypothesis on why I'm feeling crummy. There's not many countries in the world where you can book an appointment with a globally recognised specialist consultant and get an appointment within three days.

    The systems that they have in place should be standard for all patients and it's not as though it's incredibly difficult to achieve yet the NHS would take days to figure out where previous scan results lived etc...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Good Lord. Absolutely apocalyptic fire in Georgia, USA

    https://x.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1840741910257840362

    Looks like the EndTimes, and some nasty chemicals spreading

    Ah yes, the Bio Lab fire that lots of right-wing dingbats are taking as being a bio lab. As opposed to a company called 'BioLab' that make pool cleaning equipment and treatments.
    Er, they are saying it is spreading chlorine, which is what you might expect in a factory making pool cleaning equipment?

    Another SVR blunder. "Dmitri, your next assignment is set fire to secret NATO bio lab in Georgia".
    Dunno. If you wanted to spread fear and panic then a swimming pool chemical manufactory isn't a bad target as it creates A MASSIVE TOXIC CLOUD OF CHLORINE GAS JUST LIKE AT THE 2ND BATTLE OF YPRES
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,930

    Pulpstar said:

    Trying to register our 3 hens with DEFRA before the deadline tomorrow but the system isn't returning an email to us ???

    DEFRA are confused as to why you're emailing them to register your hen do?
    Sounds a load of old cock to me.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392
    Only 30 days to Reeves budget

    Buy popcorn while you can still afford it
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,983

    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    A lot of people on TwiX are perilously close to blurting out *things* about Starmer

    Don't worry @TheScreamingEagles I shan't repeat any here

    After the Sunday Times journo got sued they must either be very brave, very stupid or very confident of the facts

    Wouldn't be surprised if Nigel doesn't use Parliamentary Privilege to question Starmar about it at the next available PMQs, lol!
    Which, in a way, is why these ideas of the Tories and Reform UK having some sort of electoral pact at the next election are dubious. Reform UK are going to do Reform UK stuff. If the Tories team up with them, then they’re tied to their whacky shenanigans.
    And Reform would suffer by association at the moment. It worked in 2019 because the populist voters saw Boris as one of them. Not the case anymore, regardless of how right wing the next Tory leader is. Allying with the Tories would be getting into bed with the establishment.

    The TwiX replies to the Jenrick video were telling. Half of them condemning him for being a fascist, the other half basically saying "you lot were in power and you never did anything about it. Vote Reform".
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Trying to register our 3 hens with DEFRA before the deadline tomorrow but the system isn't returning an email to us ???

    Still no luck so sent an email directly to APHA with our details.
    Same probem so will do the same. It has been like this for weeks. I have been trying off and on for ages and kept thinking I would be able to get it done before the deadline but the system just seems to be broken.

    So I will send the details by email and then forget about it. I will have a copy of the email to show them it was done if they cause any hassle.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    MaxPB said:

    Speaking of healthcare, the UK is absolutely first rate for private health. I'm in the OneWelbeck centre right now and the consultant was able to pull in my MRI scans from 2021 and 2023 instantly, he rediagnosed them instantly and has come up with a hypothesis on why I'm feeling crummy. There's not many countries in the world where you can book an appointment with a globally recognised specialist consultant and get an appointment within three days.

    The systems that they have in place should be standard for all patients and it's not as though it's incredibly difficult to achieve yet the NHS would take days to figure out where previous scan results lived etc...

    Hope you feel better soon!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362
    Scott_xP said:

    @TelePolitics

    🔵 Rees-Mogg: Tories should step aside in 100 seats where Reform can win

    https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1840814383993115039

    If a national party doesn’t stand in every seat they aren’t really a national party…
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,930

    Only 30 days to Reeves budget

    Buy popcorn while you can still afford it

    Is she adding VAT to popcorn?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,983
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Good Lord. Absolutely apocalyptic fire in Georgia, USA

    https://x.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1840741910257840362

    Looks like the EndTimes, and some nasty chemicals spreading

    Ah yes, the Bio Lab fire that lots of right-wing dingbats are taking as being a bio lab. As opposed to a company called 'BioLab' that make pool cleaning equipment and treatments.
    Er, they are saying it is spreading chlorine, which is what you might expect in a factory making pool cleaning equipment?

    Another SVR blunder. "Dmitri, your next assignment is set fire to secret NATO bio lab in Georgia".
    Dunno. If you wanted to spread fear and panic then a swimming pool chemical manufactory isn't a bad target as it creates A MASSIVE TOXIC CLOUD OF CHLORINE GAS JUST LIKE AT THE 2ND BATTLE OF YPRES
    Far, far from Ypres I long to be
    where German snipers can't get at me
    damp is my dugout, cold are my feet
    waiting for whizzbangs to sing me to sleep
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,350
    FF43 said:

    .

    Truss is becoming box office.

    https://x.com/lewis_goodall/status/1840725806697337242

    The fact that (a) the queue for Truss is so long (b) there remains so much interest in and sympathy for her take on events from conference delegates, and (c) that she seems so unwilling to retreat from Tory politics, would worry me if I were any of the potential Conservative leaders and delight me were I in No 10.

    Liz Truss continues to surprise (on the upside)?

    The MP who lost her seat with the biggest swing against of any Conservative MP claims the Party would have done better with her in charge.
    Suppose Sunak does head to California soon, and there's a by-election in Richmond (Yorks).

    Does Liz Truss become the Conservative candidate?
    If so, does she then win the by-election?
    And if so, does she then join the shadow cabinet?
  • GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    A lot of people on TwiX are perilously close to blurting out *things* about Starmer

    Don't worry @TheScreamingEagles I shan't repeat any here

    After the Sunday Times journo got sued they must either be very brave, very stupid or very confident of the facts

    Wouldn't be surprised if Nigel doesn't use Parliamentary Privilege to question Starmar about it at the next available PMQs, lol!
    People living in glass houses - including penthouses - are NOT always so eager to throw stones; for example, note deafening silence re: Freebiegate from Conservative AND Reform MPs.

    Am note so sure re: eagerness of folk living in stone houses to hurl glasswear about?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392

    Only 30 days to Reeves budget

    Buy popcorn while you can still afford it

    Is she adding VAT to popcorn?
    There will be a 40% enjoyment tax on anything that brings pleasure

    Sir Keir Meldrew wants to make sure things get worse
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,039
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @TelePolitics

    🔵 Rees-Mogg: Tories should step aside in 100 seats where Reform can win

    https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1840814383993115039

    If a national party doesn’t stand in every seat they aren’t really a national party…
    CDU/CSU or Liberal/National here we come.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @TelePolitics

    🔵 Rees-Mogg: Tories should step aside in 100 seats where Reform can win

    https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1840814383993115039

    If a national party doesn’t stand in every seat they aren’t really a national party…
    Labour doesnt, there are 43 Coop MPs

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,546

    Only 30 days to Reeves budget

    Buy popcorn while you can still afford it

    Is she adding VAT to popcorn?
    There will be a 40% enjoyment tax on anything that brings pleasure

    Sir Keir Meldrew wants to make sure things get worse
    Does that include the lovely feeling of a nice new shirt?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,039

    Only 30 days to Reeves budget

    Buy popcorn while you can still afford it

    Is she adding VAT to popcorn?
    There will be a 40% enjoyment tax on anything that brings pleasure

    Sir Keir Meldrew wants to make sure things get worse
    Fortunately I enjoy watching England play Test cricket. So over the course of my life, that’s very much been pleasure free and must be about to become exempt.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392

    Only 30 days to Reeves budget

    Buy popcorn while you can still afford it

    Is she adding VAT to popcorn?
    There will be a 40% enjoyment tax on anything that brings pleasure

    Sir Keir Meldrew wants to make sure things get worse
    Does that include the lovely feeling of a nice new shirt?
    clothing bought by millionaires will be exempt
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,039

    FF43 said:

    .

    Truss is becoming box office.

    https://x.com/lewis_goodall/status/1840725806697337242

    The fact that (a) the queue for Truss is so long (b) there remains so much interest in and sympathy for her take on events from conference delegates, and (c) that she seems so unwilling to retreat from Tory politics, would worry me if I were any of the potential Conservative leaders and delight me were I in No 10.

    Liz Truss continues to surprise (on the upside)?

    The MP who lost her seat with the biggest swing against of any Conservative MP claims the Party would have done better with her in charge.
    Suppose Sunak does head to California soon, and there's a by-election in Richmond (Yorks).

    Does Liz Truss become the Conservative candidate?
    If so, does she then win the by-election?
    And if so, does she then join the shadow cabinet?
    Boris has filled his coffers again….
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,060
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @TelePolitics

    🔵 Rees-Mogg: Tories should step aside in 100 seats where Reform can win

    https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1840814383993115039

    If a national party doesn’t stand in every seat they aren’t really a national party…
    (narrator: if memory serves, the only mainland party to stand in Northern Ireland, to their credit, is the Conservatives)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,201
    Leon said:

    Wait, the fire started yesterday, but it is still puffing out evil chemicals?

    Confused

    https://x.com/BillyHeathFOX5/status/1840771388535148910

    Chemical fires can have all kinds of fun after parties. And after after parties….

    Imagine a smashed up chemical factory, tons of shit leaking, and lots of water as well from the fire fighting….
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,261

    FF43 said:

    .

    Truss is becoming box office.

    https://x.com/lewis_goodall/status/1840725806697337242

    The fact that (a) the queue for Truss is so long (b) there remains so much interest in and sympathy for her take on events from conference delegates, and (c) that she seems so unwilling to retreat from Tory politics, would worry me if I were any of the potential Conservative leaders and delight me were I in No 10.

    Liz Truss continues to surprise (on the upside)?

    The MP who lost her seat with the biggest swing against of any Conservative MP claims the Party would have done better with her in charge.
    Suppose Sunak does head to California soon, and there's a by-election in Richmond (Yorks).

    Does Liz Truss become the Conservative candidate?
    If so, does she then win the by-election?
    And if so, does she then join the shadow cabinet?
    Penny over Liz or Boris, hopefully! 🙏
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,546
    "Documents revealing that Navalny was actually poisoned have been leaked. You will be shocked beyond words that it was not by @wikileaks"

    https://x.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1840477019806556360

    And he main story:
    https://www.politico.eu/article/alexei-navalny-killed-possible-poison-russia-vladimir-putin/
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,274
    Biden could be in an impossible situation re the likely east coast and Gulf dockworkers strike .

    If the strike drags on there will be huge pressure to trigger the Taft-Hartley Act which will infuriate the unions . Let the strike continue and I expect the GOP to try and score points. The public’s patience might wear thin if they start to feel the impacts.

    All this is hardly a help to the Harris campaign .

    And even if Biden triggers that act dockworkers can still cause disruption by working very slowly !



  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,638

    Leon said:

    Wait, the fire started yesterday, but it is still puffing out evil chemicals?

    Confused

    https://x.com/BillyHeathFOX5/status/1840771388535148910

    Chemical fires can have all kinds of fun after parties. And after after parties….

    Imagine a smashed up chemical factory, tons of shit leaking, and lots of water as well from the fire fighting….
    Piper Alpha burned for 3 weeks. If only we had a resident firefighter...

    @twistedfirestopper3
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,546

    I'd probably take my pint in to hear Liz Truss as well, just to hear how batshit she was.

    Properly Box.

    Just leave your BLT outside. She might get a bit twitchy the BT might get separated....
  • eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @TelePolitics

    🔵 Rees-Mogg: Tories should step aside in 100 seats where Reform can win

    https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1840814383993115039

    If a national party doesn’t stand in every seat they aren’t really a national party…
    Labour doesnt, there are 43 Coop MPs

    Aren't they Labour and Co-Op? (No, don't understand how that works.) But there's pretty broad agreement that the two parties want similar things.

    Besides, hardly anyone actively objects to the Co-Op, except for small shopkeepers of Alderman Robert's generation.

    Plenty of people object to Reform UK, and the Conservatives can only do a stand down if they say "we want similar things to them".
  • Clutch_BromptonClutch_Brompton Posts: 737
    edited September 30
    On topic - a wee note on the tale of the last statewide polling in the 7 main battleground states. That was the 6 states that polled in 2022. So what was the partisan slant in those polls? Unlike 2014, 2016, 2018 and 2020 there was no advantage for the Dems. In fact in all six states the polling average overstated the Reps - by 1% (North Carolina), 2% (Georgia, Nevada and Wisconsin) or 4% (Arizona and Pennsylvania).

    Why? Simple. A plethora of Rep-weighted polls or even voodoo polls - in some cases produced apparently solely to influence the polling averages. So watch out for the following polls that polled over 5 states total in 2022 and showed a partisan slant.

    Rep slant - Remington (3), Wick (4), InsiderAdvantage (5), Trafalgar (6) and Co/efficient (7). Don't forget that Rasmussen, Patriot Polling and AtlasIntel are all from the same bag. If you want Rep-linked pollsters that actually produce real polling then you should look out for Cygnal or Fabrizio Ward.

    There are also Dem-linked pollsters. I wouldn't pay too much attention to ActiVote for instance. Civiqs and Morning Consult generally have a Dem lean. However PPP and Data for Progress are Dem-linked pollsters that produce real polls - calling the balls ans strikes as they fall.

    As for the neutrals polling 5 states in 2022 - Some had no partisan bias (YouGov, SurveyUSA and Research Co), or 1% to the Reps (Emerson and Marist). One had a 3% slant to the Dems but this season appears to have taken severe remedial action to ensure they don't do that again - Siena/New York Times. The latter have a pretty poor record over several cycles.

    Hope that helps some - we all need all the help we can get on this one.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,274
    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    Scott_xP said:

    @TelePolitics

    🔵 Rees-Mogg: Tories should step aside in 100 seats where Reform can win

    https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1840814383993115039

    That strategy, by the ex-MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, has two problems:

    (1) It permanently creates a party to the Right of the Conservatives, with whom they will constantly fight for votes.

    (2) In Remainia, it it allows the LibDems and Labour to paint the Conservatives and Reform as one and the same, which will worsen tactical voting against them.

    My view is that the Conservative Party needs to extinguish Reform by (a) stealing their most popular policies, and (b) ensuring they don't get a significant local government base.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,546

    Pulpstar said:

    Trying to register our 3 hens with DEFRA before the deadline tomorrow but the system isn't returning an email to us ???

    DEFRA are confused as to why you're emailing them to register your hen do?
    Sounds a load of old cock to me.
    Poultry punning...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,978
    rcs1000 said:

    My view is that the Conservative Party needs to extinguish Reform by (a) stealing their most popular policies, and (b) ensuring they don't get a significant local government base.

    They needed to do that 10 years ago
  • Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Wait, the fire started yesterday, but it is still puffing out evil chemicals?

    Confused

    https://x.com/BillyHeathFOX5/status/1840771388535148910

    Chemical fires can have all kinds of fun after parties. And after after parties….

    Imagine a smashed up chemical factory, tons of shit leaking, and lots of water as well from the fire fighting….
    Piper Alpha burned for 3 weeks. If only we had a resident firefighter...

    @twistedfirestopper3
    My wife's cousin's son perished on Piper Alpha
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @TelePolitics

    🔵 Rees-Mogg: Tories should step aside in 100 seats where Reform can win

    https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1840814383993115039

    If a national party doesn’t stand in every seat they aren’t really a national party…
    Labour doesnt, there are 43 Coop MPs

    Tell me you don’t understand how the Labour Party works
  • rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @TelePolitics

    🔵 Rees-Mogg: Tories should step aside in 100 seats where Reform can win

    https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1840814383993115039

    That strategy, by the ex-MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, has two problems:

    (1) It permanently creates a party to the Right of the Conservatives, with whom they will constantly fight for votes.

    (2) In Remainia, it it allows the LibDems and Labour to paint the Conservatives and Reform as one and the same, which will worsen tactical voting against them.

    My view is that the Conservative Party needs to extinguish Reform by (a) stealing their most popular policies, and (b) ensuring they don't get a significant local government base.
    I don't see how they do that given that most of their policies are ones that an election winning Conservative party would not consider.

    Their best bet is to hope that Reform do the normal trick of all Farage's parties and self destruct.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,983
    "Asked what gets her up in the morning, Truss replies “the fight” to save the West against the “neo-Marxist orthodoxy”

    https://x.com/kitty_donaldson/status/1840723620483477788
  • Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Wait, the fire started yesterday, but it is still puffing out evil chemicals?

    Confused

    https://x.com/BillyHeathFOX5/status/1840771388535148910

    Chemical fires can have all kinds of fun after parties. And after after parties….

    Imagine a smashed up chemical factory, tons of shit leaking, and lots of water as well from the fire fighting….
    Piper Alpha burned for 3 weeks. If only we had a resident firefighter...

    @twistedfirestopper3
    My wife's cousin's son perished on Piper Alpha
    Damn. Sorry Big_G
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited September 30
    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    If only a former immigration minister in the Home Office had done something about that!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,810
    Leon said:

    Doesn't sound good in Georgia

    "I live about 60 miles from Conyers. I can smell the chlorine when I go outside. I cannot imagine what it is like close by. Conyers is a densely populated area. Just stunning."

    https://x.com/tenbeerz/status/1840814708686737785

    Chlorine is an actual poison gas from WW1...

    Chlorine is an actual disinfectant in drinking water ... and swimming pools too (though, I believe, the chlorine smell only comes after folk pee in the water).
  • Andy_JS said:

    Proof of the pudding.

    "List of active coal-fired power stations in the United Kingdom

    An editor has nominated this article for deletion.
    You are welcome to participate in the deletion discussion, which will decide whether or not to retain it.
    Feel free to improve the article, but do not remove this notice before the discussion is closed. For more information, see the guide to deletion."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_power_stations_in_the_United_Kingdom

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_China#Coal
  • Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Wait, the fire started yesterday, but it is still puffing out evil chemicals?

    Confused

    https://x.com/BillyHeathFOX5/status/1840771388535148910

    Chemical fires can have all kinds of fun after parties. And after after parties….

    Imagine a smashed up chemical factory, tons of shit leaking, and lots of water as well from the fire fighting….
    Piper Alpha burned for 3 weeks. If only we had a resident firefighter...

    @twistedfirestopper3
    My wife's cousin's son perished on Piper Alpha
    Damn. Sorry Big_G
    Thank you

    It was horrific
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,077
    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    Kinell. Demented rellies. Eeeeeeeeeeeeesh
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,060

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @TelePolitics

    🔵 Rees-Mogg: Tories should step aside in 100 seats where Reform can win

    https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1840814383993115039

    If a national party doesn’t stand in every seat they aren’t really a national party…
    Labour doesnt, there are 43 Coop MPs

    Aren't they Labour and Co-Op? (No, don't understand how that works.) But there's pretty broad agreement that the two parties want similar things.

    Besides, hardly anyone actively objects to the Co-Op, except for small shopkeepers of Alderman Robert's generation.

    Plenty of people object to Reform UK, and the Conservatives can only do a stand down if they say "we want similar things to them".
    The Co-op party is like the mitochondria in your cells: once independent organisms that in practice, if not de-jure, now only function within another larger one. The agreement between the Labour Party and the Cooperative Party (two legally separate institutions) was finalised in 1927 and has remained in place ever since. The alliance is (misleadingly IMHO) referred as "The Labour and Cooperative Party", despite not actually being a party.

    This became interesting in 2024 when Lloyd Russell-Moyle was suspended as a candidate in Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven by the Labour Party, despite the fact that LRM is not a member of the Labour Party. Since the alliance between the two parties governs how candidates are selected it is allowed to do that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_and_Co-operative_Party
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-operative_Party
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/06/05/parties/
  • Scott_xP said:

    @TelePolitics

    🔵 Rees-Mogg: Tories should step aside in 100 seats where Reform can win

    https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1840814383993115039

    Does he say which seats.

    Because there's about a dozen seats in this list which Reform could win but the Conservatives cannot:

    https://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/reform-uk
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,060
    Incidentally Wikipedia informs me that an early driver of the Co-operative movement in the UK is a group known as the "RochdalePioneers". @RochdalePioneers, did this influence your name?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,010
    edited September 30
    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Unfortunately this a fight to win the right or specifically reform voters then no doubt pivot towards mainstream

    It will be more than interesting to see how this pans out, not least because this seems to be happening across Europe

    As a one nation conservative I accept the present state of the party leads me homeless politically but then it is 5 years to the next GE and goodness knows where the UK will be politically by then

    Even a 25% labour, conservative , lib dem, reform share is not out of the question as surreal as it may seem
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,039
    TimS said:

    "Asked what gets her up in the morning, Truss replies “the fight” to save the West against the “neo-Marxist orthodoxy”

    https://x.com/kitty_donaldson/status/1840723620483477788

    Not her alarm clock?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,983
    biggles said:

    TimS said:

    "Asked what gets her up in the morning, Truss replies “the fight” to save the West against the “neo-Marxist orthodoxy”

    https://x.com/kitty_donaldson/status/1840723620483477788

    Not her alarm clock?
    Or nurse
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    TimS said:

    biggles said:

    TimS said:

    "Asked what gets her up in the morning, Truss replies “the fight” to save the West against the “neo-Marxist orthodoxy”

    https://x.com/kitty_donaldson/status/1840723620483477788

    Not her alarm clock?
    Or nurse
    Or the swipe of a cane across REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,779
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Speaking of healthcare, the UK is absolutely first rate for private health. I'm in the OneWelbeck centre right now and the consultant was able to pull in my MRI scans from 2021 and 2023 instantly, he rediagnosed them instantly and has come up with a hypothesis on why I'm feeling crummy. There's not many countries in the world where you can book an appointment with a globally recognised specialist consultant and get an appointment within three days.

    The systems that they have in place should be standard for all patients and it's not as though it's incredibly difficult to achieve yet the NHS would take days to figure out where previous scan results lived etc...

    Hope you feel better soon!
    Thanks, it's not as though I feel awful. It's just one of those always feeling a bit rubbish in the background things. The consultant looked at both of my MRIs and said he's got a pretty good idea of why and now I've got the cycling test booked in for Friday alongside a CT scan to rule out arterial narrowing.

    One NHS doctor and two other private doctors missed the issue and I got recommended this guy by someone at work and instantly he seems to have figured it out just from looking at two scans, he showed me on the scans too and compared it to what a normal function looks like and it's clear there's an anomaly.

    I'm hopeful that after almost 3 years there's an end in sight for this, he said if it's what he thinks it is then it's just basic medication.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,779
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,768
    Leon said:

    Kinell. Demented rellies. Eeeeeeeeeeeeesh

    Go on...?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,768
    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Leaving the ECHR and querying migrant crime rates may be beyond uour particular pale, but I don't think either are particularly outside of mainstream opinion.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,585
    edited September 30
    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    Starmer has surprised on the downside.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,010
    edited September 30
    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    That is remarkable and even more so is 33% of Labour voters regret their vote
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,633
    The conservative conference is putting the Labour conference into perspective. Whatever bullets Labour might have fired into their feet recently they are in a far better state than the Tories.

    I was surprised that some of them were still banging on about Blair today. Like old lefties still going on about Thatcher. They can’t figure out if they want to defeat or become Farage.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Kinell. Demented rellies. Eeeeeeeeeeeeesh

    Go on...?
    Bluntly put: my mother is quite gaga. Phone calls can be.... a trial... visits worse...

    Terrible confession: the only advantage to her dementia is that when I do call I remind her that I called her "a few days ago", when in reality it is about six weeks since the last call; and she entirely believes this, so I don't have to feel guilty

    Eeek. I'm a bad person
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,779
    Other bits from the telegraph - The research found that out of the million-plus Britons who opted to stay at home having voted Tory in 2019, it was the first time that three quarters (77 per cent) had not voted Tory.

    And - When asked whether they regretted their vote, 33 per cent of Labour voters said they did, while 5 per cent of Conservative voters said that they regretted backing the Tories.

    This is dire stuff for Labour. Those 770k who didn't vote Tory for the first time must be feeling pretty stupid right now, their obstinacy was the difference between ~120 seats and ~200 seats in such a tight election and giving Labour a much tougher 5 years with a much smaller majority.

  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,775
    MaxPB said:

    Speaking of healthcare, the UK is absolutely first rate for private health. I'm in the OneWelbeck centre right now and the consultant was able to pull in my MRI scans from 2021 and 2023 instantly, he rediagnosed them instantly and has come up with a hypothesis on why I'm feeling crummy. There's not many countries in the world where you can book an appointment with a globally recognised specialist consultant and get an appointment within three days.

    The systems that they have in place should be standard for all patients and it's not as though it's incredibly difficult to achieve yet the NHS would take days to figure out where previous scan results lived etc...

    My local GP surgery texted me recently about closing down for two days to do the upgrade from Windows XP. I'm hoping next time they print out a URL for me on a sheet of A4 rather than just email it to me that the upgrade was worth it.

    Snark aside, this is one of the concrete areas where Google's AI work seems to be paying off. No idea if the NHS or wider bodies will accept it - but they are showing concrete results in improving diagnosis from top to bottom.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    Another poll says that the only government to do worse than this in recent history - in terms of immediate unpopulartity - is Thatcher's. Starmer is going to need a Falkands War to turn this around, except that he and Lammy would contrive to lose it
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,402
    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    That's absolutely delicious.

    They've been in power for, checks notes.. 89 days
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,775
    Leon said:

    Doesn't sound good in Georgia

    "I live about 60 miles from Conyers. I can smell the chlorine when I go outside. I cannot imagine what it is like close by. Conyers is a densely populated area. Just stunning."

    https://x.com/tenbeerz/status/1840814708686737785

    Chlorine is an actual poison gas from WW1...

    Less human-interest, but we'll also have some fall-out from Spruce Pine being underwater I guess.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,402
    MaxPB said:

    Other bits from the telegraph - The research found that out of the million-plus Britons who opted to stay at home having voted Tory in 2019, it was the first time that three quarters (77 per cent) had not voted Tory.

    And - When asked whether they regretted their vote, 33 per cent of Labour voters said they did, while 5 per cent of Conservative voters said that they regretted backing the Tories.

    This is dire stuff for Labour. Those 770k who didn't vote Tory for the first time must be feeling pretty stupid right now, their obstinacy was the difference between ~120 seats and ~200 seats in such a tight election and giving Labour a much tougher 5 years with a much smaller majority.

    Well, I did try and warn them.

    No-one wanted to listen.
  • Jonathan said:

    The conservative conference is putting the Labour conference into perspective. Whatever bullets Labour might have fired into their feet recently they are in a far better state than the Tories.

    I was surprised that some of them were still banging on about Blair today. Like old lefties still going on about Thatcher. They can’t figure out if they want to defeat or become Farage.

    Ironic you say this when tonight's poll puts Sunak’s government ahead of Starmer’s !!!!
  • Scott_xP said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    A lot of people on TwiX are perilously close to blurting out *things* about Starmer

    Don't worry @TheScreamingEagles I shan't repeat any here

    After the Sunday Times journo got sued they must either be very brave, very stupid or very confident of the facts

    Wouldn't be surprised if Nigel doesn't use Parliamentary Privilege to question Starmar about it at the next available PMQs, lol!
    Which, in a way, is why these ideas of the Tories and Reform UK having some sort of electoral pact at the next election are dubious. Reform UK are going to do Reform UK stuff. If the Tories team up with them, then they’re tied to their whacky shenanigans.
    Rees Mogg says Tories should stand down in 100 seats Reform can win
    Import Reform, become Reform.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,077
    edited September 30
    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Oh do pipe down

    The Conservative Party exists to propose Conservative, rightwing policies. Not policies that YOU, a whiney centrist Remoaner, find palatable. It's like me criticising the SNP for pursuing Scottish independence - I can argue that it is far harder to achieve than they will admit (and it is), but I can't expect them to argue for the Union and then get all huffy and angry when they don't
    Oh come on. Jenrick is not offering a policy, he is offering a posture, like you do most of the time you are on here. However, you have license to posture and write provocative nonsense, because being court jester is kind of your job and a man has to eat and indeed drink to a reasonable standard.

    Jenrick and the other pantomime villains in the Tory leadership race do not have that license. Kings do not get to wear motely. This isn´t even remotely serious politics, and the Tories are no longer a serious political party if they go down this sub MAGA road. Even you must admit they lost the plot under Truss and instead of trying to get together a coherent set of actual, you know, *Conservative* policies, they have struck off further and further into tin foil hat land. JRM suggesting that the Tories stand down in 100 seats? Um the Tories currently hold only 121 seats, so this is basically delusion or a death wish. Actually scratch that, its Rees Mogg, so its probably both.

    This country is not going to elect a Tory party in thrall to this kind of entitled twattery. They have had two strikes already, if they can not or will not grow up, then the Lib Dems, a party with a large and growing national organisation and a boat load of new and very good MPs as well as loads more money, that will be eating their lunch, not Reform, which is a Putin compromised, Alt-media led chimera,
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,633

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    That's absolutely delicious.

    They've been in power for, checks notes.. 89 days
    Miliband led Cameron in the polls in September 2010.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    Jonathan said:

    The conservative conference is putting the Labour conference into perspective. Whatever bullets Labour might have fired into their feet recently they are in a far better state than the Tories.

    I was surprised that some of them were still banging on about Blair today. Like old lefties still going on about Thatcher. They can’t figure out if they want to defeat or become Farage.

    Unfortunate timing for this remark, amidst a sudden blizzard of catastrophic polls for Labour

    HAHAHAHAHAH
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Oh do pipe down

    The Conservative Party exists to propose Conservative, rightwing policies. Not policies that YOU, a whiney centrist Remoaner, find palatable. It's like me criticising the SNP for pursuing Scottish independence - I can argue that it is far harder to achieve than they will admit (and it is), but I can't expect them to argue for the Union and then get all huffy and angry when they don't
    Oh come on. Jenrick is not offering a policy, he is offering a posture, like you do most of the time you are on here. However, you have license to posture and write provocative nonsense, because being court jester is kind of your job and a man has to eat and indeed drink to a reasonable standard.

    Jenrick and the other pantomime villains in the Tory leadership race do not have that license. Kings do not get to wear motely. This isn´t even remotely serious politics, and the Tories are no longer a serious political party if they go down this sub MAGA road. Even you must admit they lost the plot under Truss and instead of trying to get together a coherent set of actual, you know, *Conservative* policies, they have struck off further and further into tin foil hat land. JRM suggesting that the Tories stand down in 100 seats? Um the Tories currently hold only 121 seats, so this is basically delusion or a death wish. Actually scratch that, its Rees Mogg, so its probably both.

    This country is not going to elect a Tory party in thrall to this kind of twattery. They have had two strikes already, if they can not or will not grow up, then the Lib Dems, a party with a large and growing national organisation and a boat load of new and very good MPs as well as loads more money, that will be eating their lunch, not Reform, which is a Putin compromised, Alt-media led chimera,
    I don't give a fuck what a fool like you thinks of the Tories and their policies, so you can spare yourself all this typing
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,633

    Jonathan said:

    The conservative conference is putting the Labour conference into perspective. Whatever bullets Labour might have fired into their feet recently they are in a far better state than the Tories.

    I was surprised that some of them were still banging on about Blair today. Like old lefties still going on about Thatcher. They can’t figure out if they want to defeat or become Farage.

    Ironic you say this when tonight's poll puts Sunak’s government ahead of Starmer’s !!!!
    I’m sure Sunak would be delighted to have Starmer problems today.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,585
    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Oh do pipe down

    The Conservative Party exists to propose Conservative, rightwing policies. Not policies that YOU, a whiney centrist Remoaner, find palatable. It's like me criticising the SNP for pursuing Scottish independence - I can argue that it is far harder to achieve than they will admit (and it is), but I can't expect them to argue for the Union and then get all huffy and angry when they don't
    Oh come on. Jenrick is not offering a policy, he is offering a posture, like you do most of the time you are on here. However, you have license to posture and write provocative nonsense, because being court jester is kind of your job and a man has to eat and indeed drink to a reasonable standard.

    Jenrick and the other pantomime villains in the Tory leadership race do not have that license. Kings do not get to wear motely. This isn´t even remotely serious politics, and the Tories are no longer a serious political party if they go down this sub MAGA road. Even you must admit they lost the plot under Truss and instead of trying to get together a coherent set of actual, you know, *Conservative* policies, they have struck off further and further into tin foil hat land. JRM suggesting that the Tories stand down in 100 seats? Um the Tories currently hold only 121 seats, so this is basically delusion or a death wish. Actually scratch that, its Rees Mogg, so its probably both.

    This country is not going to elect a Tory party in thrall to this kind of twattery. They have had two strikes already, if they can not or will not grow up, then the Lib Dems, a party with a large and growing national organisation and a boat load of new and very good MPs as well as loads more money, that will be eating their lunch, not Reform, which is a Putin compromised, Alt-media led chimera,
    Would you (did you?) say the same about the prospect of a Tory party supporting being outside the EU? Now it's the centre ground position supported by a Labour Prime Minister.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,402
    It's possible Labour are going on a accelerated path of the road the Conservatives went down.

    Not being clear about what they stand for, with lots of inconsistent and unpopular policy choices that irritate almost every voter group, and with self-indulgence and sleaze on top.

    Worse: Starmer has neither the charisma nor humour to bluster through it, and seems to alienate people faster than Theresa May did.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,779
    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    That's absolutely delicious.

    They've been in power for, checks notes.. 89 days
    Miliband led Cameron in the polls in September 2010.
    He led the polls in 2015 too, the polls have always overstated Labour, this could in fact be much worse for Labour than people realise. Sentiment is very poor right now. Don't get me wrong the Tories will contrive to blow it by putting up Jenrick or Kemi but they've got time on their side to find a formula that works. Labour have got no time, people expect results and for things in the country to change for the better, yet they're talking about managed decline.
  • algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    They won’t occupy. They will just make Gaza an unliveable wasteland
    It already was anyway largely, the West Bank however was perfectly liveable in
    I don’t think the Israelis care any more. After October 7 they want to expel all Palestinians because they see them as an existential threat to Jews (and the October 7 attackers made it very clear they wanted to kill every Jew they encountered)

    The logic is pretty brutal if you’re an Israeli. Israel can only continue if “Palestine” is extinguished. Hence Gaza. At the same time Israel is now securing its northern border with Lebanon and maybe even taking out the Iranian leadership: might as well get it all done in one go

    This all makes perfect sense IF your overwhelming concern is the survival of Israel as a Jewish ethno-state. It is also horrendously cruel
    It is also disastrous, if they kill lots of Palestinians, many of them innocent of any terrorist links and add lots of innocent Lebanese to the death toll too they will be creating generations of pro Hamas and pro Hezbollah terrorists who weren't there before.

    We also need to remember 30% of the population of Lebanon are Christian and 6% of Palestinians are Christian too, they should be naturally pro Israel but won't be if all their churches are bombed and their families driven from their homes
    Cut the crap, as long as Hamas and Hezbollah exist there will always be more people joining Hamas and Hezbollah.

    As long as they exist, those regions will be blockaded and impoverished and as long as people are impoverished the only way out of poverty or to have any hope is to unfortunately join with Hamas and Hezbollah respectively.

    The only way to end the cycle of violence is to metaphorically stuff people's faces with gold, the Marshall Plan works, but the prerequisite of that even being an option is to end the threat from Hamas and Hezbollah.

    Not reduce it, not a temporary ceasefire, but to end the threat by destroying those organisations completely.

    If that is done the cycle of violence can end, but if there's a ceasefire then it is inevitable that the fighting will resume as without a lasting peace, without development, without opportunities people will see no alternative but to continue the violence.
    That isn't going to come from Bibi and/or Smotrich. Bibi is interested in starting in power and avoiding corruption charges: endless war suits him. Smotrich wants genocide, to clear out the non-Jewish populations and create a greater Israel.
    Luckily Bibi is not a dictator and Israel is a democracy.

    When the threat from the Palestinians is minimised then Israel has been willing to vote for the likes of Begin who negotiated peace with Egypt, or Peres who tried negotiating with the Palestinians, or Barak who was willing to create a Palestinian state as agreed with Clinton in Camp David but unfortunately Arafat walked away from it as he didn't actually want peace.

    One of my biggest criticisms of Bibi is I agree he wants endless war and he's been far, far too soft on Hamas which allowed the attacks last year to happen.

    Israel needs to defeat Hamas/Hezbollah, not have a ceasefire, then negotiate a peace agreement. Bibi doesn't want that, but most Israelis do, and Israel is a democracy.
    Not a word about his assisting in the theft of West Bank land by illegal settlers? Not one?

    And Britain never defetaed the Nationalist terrorists in Northern Ireland. We realised it was impossible and had a negotiated settlement. Which whilst far from perfect is sure as hell a lot better than seeing civilians murdered week in week out on the streets of British cities. Israel will never 'defeat' Hamas/Hezbollah unfortunately. All they will do is cause more death and misery and perpetuate the current hatreds in the Middle East.
    Agree. However at the start of a real negotiation those who can take a wide and broad 'objective view from nowhere in particular' - something PB posters are good at - need to be able to give an outline idea of what a settlement which was reasonable and good for good people on all sides and in all relevant places, would look like, and if such a thing can be imagined.

    Apart from a two state solution (which both sides appear to reject outright) I can't think of any. Whereas with the island of Ireland I can think of a few possibles.
    I think you are right. The only solution is the two state one that is currently rejected - at least by Israel and the terrorist groups. It is not rejected by a lot of the more morderate Palestinians but for them it is a pipe dream as they see themselves being driven off their lands in the West Bank by settlers backed up by the Israeli military.
    Is a two-state outcome a solution?

    A free, sovereign, Palestine is potentially a grave threat to Israel's security. I don't see how it can be considered a potential solution when it violates the key objective for one of the parties to the potential agreement. The status quo, where the Palestinians are weaker and so less of a threat, will always be preferable to Israel than allowing a free, sovereign Palestine.
    A free sovereign Ireland is no threat to the United Kingdom. There is absolutely no reason why the same should not apply to a future Palestinian state. Jordan is a good example of how a stable state that was once an enemy can become an asset to Israeli security. When Iran was firing missiles at Israel earlier this year, the Jordanians were using their miilitary to intecept and destroy them.
    There is no reason that can't happen in the future, yes, if in the future the Palestinians are led by leaders who recognise Israel's right to exist.

    That leadership is not Hamas.
    Israel is at least in part responsible for it being Hamas because they failed to abide by the agreements they had with the more moderate Palestinian leaders. Hamas is a creation of both radical Palestinians and radical Israelis. Indeed as revealed by several Israeli newspapers earlier in the year, Netenyahu had an active policy of supporting Hamas and making them stronger as a means of undermining the more moderate Palestinian Authority. He wanted the conflict as it gave him the opportunity to be more extreme and destroyed any possibility of a peaceful resolution.

    That is who you are shilling for, .
    Except Richard I'm not shilling for Netanyahu, quite the opposite I've said I've no love lost for him and think he's a disgracefully bad leader who should be ousted and in prison.

    I have criticised Netanyahu for being too weak on Hamas, so you saying that he is, is not news to me, nor is it changing my mind for you to make the exact same points I'd already made.

    Netanyahu has been disgracefully weak in tackling Hamas and has stoked the conflict. I want a better leader who will end the conflict by ending Hamas.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    That's absolutely delicious.

    They've been in power for, checks notes.. 89 days
    Miliband led Cameron in the polls in September 2010.
    He led the polls in 2015 too, the polls have always overstated Labour, this could in fact be much worse for Labour than people realise. Sentiment is very poor right now. Don't get me wrong the Tories will contrive to blow it by putting up Jenrick or Kemi but they've got time on their side to find a formula that works. Labour have got no time, people expect results and for things in the country to change for the better, yet they're talking about managed decline.
    I don’t think Starmer is trying to win votes right now. He has deliberately set out to be unpopular. Well, he’s achieved his objective. Played for and got.

    Will be interesting to see what happens next.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,779

    MaxPB said:

    Other bits from the telegraph - The research found that out of the million-plus Britons who opted to stay at home having voted Tory in 2019, it was the first time that three quarters (77 per cent) had not voted Tory.

    And - When asked whether they regretted their vote, 33 per cent of Labour voters said they did, while 5 per cent of Conservative voters said that they regretted backing the Tories.

    This is dire stuff for Labour. Those 770k who didn't vote Tory for the first time must be feeling pretty stupid right now, their obstinacy was the difference between ~120 seats and ~200 seats in such a tight election and giving Labour a much tougher 5 years with a much smaller majority.

    Well, I did try and warn them.

    No-one wanted to listen.
    Me too, my dad has huge regrets. I won't give him the "serves you right" speech because he's learned his lesson but there are times when I'm tempted when he moans about CGT aligning with income tax etc...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,402
    Cookie said:

    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Leaving the ECHR and querying migrant crime rates may be beyond uour particular pale, but I don't think either are particularly outside of mainstream opinion.
    If leaving the ECHR solved it I'd have no problem leaving the ECHR.

    Leaving the ECHR alone won't solve it. There are all sorts of UN conventions and international treaties we'd get caught up instead. And even if we did clear all that the Channel is pretty binary - UK or French waters - so we'd have to either ram them back into French seas over and over again until they got bored, or became casualties, ignore French sovereignty and dump them back at Dunkirk, or do a returns deal.

    It's a massive tangled ball of wool. Unpicking a simple peripheral thread isn't an answer.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 495

    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Unfortunately this a fight to win the right or specifically reform voters then no doubt pivot towards mainstream

    It will be more than interesting to see how this pans out, not least because this seems to be happening across Europe

    As a one nation conservative I accept the present state of the party leads me homeless politically but then it is 5 years to the next GE and goodness knows where the UK will be politically by then

    Even a 25% labour, conservative , lib dem, reform share is not out of the question as surreal as it may seem
    That's not Jenrick's fight at the moment though is it. He needs to get 39 MPs on side to make the final 2, then over 50% of the members. The members being those who haven't abandoned the party for Reform, Lib Dems or nothin. Not sure how chasing low intelligence Reform voters with racism achieves that. He could still lose out to Badenoch if he projects himself as a racist white male.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,033

    Simon Case resigning tells us that Starmer has sided decisively with Sue Gray, and that she's won that dispute.

    One to watch.

    Hasn't he previously announced he was going at the end of the year anyway ?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,775

    It's possible Labour are going on a accelerated path of the road the Conservatives went down.

    Not being clear about what they stand for, with lots of inconsistent and unpopular policy choices that irritate almost every voter group, and with self-indulgence and sleaze on top.

    Worse: Starmer has neither the charisma nor humour to bluster through it, and seems to alienate people faster than Theresa May did.

    Now I'm imagining a weekly PMQ's between Theresa and Keir. That would be... exciting viewing.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,779
    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    That's absolutely delicious.

    They've been in power for, checks notes.. 89 days
    Miliband led Cameron in the polls in September 2010.
    He led the polls in 2015 too, the polls have always overstated Labour, this could in fact be much worse for Labour than people realise. Sentiment is very poor right now. Don't get me wrong the Tories will contrive to blow it by putting up Jenrick or Kemi but they've got time on their side to find a formula that works. Labour have got no time, people expect results and for things in the country to change for the better, yet they're talking about managed decline.
    I don’t think Starmer is trying to win votes right now. He has deliberately set out to be unpopular. Well, he’s achieved his objective. Played for and got.

    Will be interesting to see what happens next.
    I don't think he set out to be unpopular because of dodgy donations and freebies though. If he was unpopular because of delivering a big dose of horrible medicine then sure, but Labour haven't even really made any tough decisions other than the WFA withdrawal, there's at least 10-15x as many left before the next election if Labour are serious about fixing the NHS and public services because it involves mass public sector redundancies and spending cuts.
  • Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Oh do pipe down

    The Conservative Party exists to propose Conservative, rightwing policies. Not policies that YOU, a whiney centrist Remoaner, find palatable. It's like me criticising the SNP for pursuing Scottish independence - I can argue that it is far harder to achieve than they will admit (and it is), but I can't expect them to argue for the Union and then get all huffy and angry when they don't
    Oh come on. Jenrick is not offering a policy, he is offering a posture, like you do most of the time you are on here. However, you have license to posture and write provocative nonsense, because being court jester is kind of your job and a man has to eat and indeed drink to a reasonable standard.

    Jenrick and the other pantomime villains in the Tory leadership race do not have that license. Kings do not get to wear motely. This isn´t even remotely serious politics, and the Tories are no longer a serious political party if they go down this sub MAGA road. Even you must admit they lost the plot under Truss and instead of trying to get together a coherent set of actual, you know, *Conservative* policies, they have struck off further and further into tin foil hat land. JRM suggesting that the Tories stand down in 100 seats? Um the Tories currently hold only 121 seats, so this is basically delusion or a death wish. Actually scratch that, its Rees Mogg, so its probably both.

    This country is not going to elect a Tory party in thrall to this kind of twattery. They have had two strikes already, if they can not or will not grow up, then the Lib Dems, a party with a large and growing national organisation and a boat load of new and very good MPs as well as loads more money, that will be eating their lunch, not Reform, which is a Putin compromised, Alt-media led chimera,
    Whilst I certainly am worried about the conservative party at present change is happening all around us and it seems the right are in the ascendancy

    As for the lib dems they owe their seat numbers to the electoral system as more people voted for Reform at GE 24

    I would also suggest that in both Wales and Scotland the lib dems are underperforming and look more like a Southern England party

    I would be a candidate to vote lib dems but I do not support rejoining Europe which seems to be their principle policy
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,033
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Good Lord. Absolutely apocalyptic fire in Georgia, USA

    https://x.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1840741910257840362

    Looks like the EndTimes, and some nasty chemicals spreading

    Ah yes, the Bio Lab fire that lots of right-wing dingbats are taking as being a bio lab. As opposed to a company called 'BioLab' that make pool cleaning equipment and treatments.
    Er, they are saying it is spreading chlorine, which is what you might expect in a factory making pool cleaning equipment?

    Another SVR blunder. "Dmitri, your next assignment is set fire to secret NATO bio lab in Georgia".
    Hey, it makes bleach of a sort - and we all know who thinks that's potentially medication.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    My view is that the Conservative Party needs to extinguish Reform by (a) stealing their most popular policies, and (b) ensuring they don't get a significant local government base.

    They needed to do that 10 years ago
    They did, and promptly won the 2019 election off the back of it. Not that you gave them any credit for it.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,077
    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Oh do pipe down

    The Conservative Party exists to propose Conservative, rightwing policies. Not policies that YOU, a whiney centrist Remoaner, find palatable. It's like me criticising the SNP for pursuing Scottish independence - I can argue that it is far harder to achieve than they will admit (and it is), but I can't expect them to argue for the Union and then get all huffy and angry when they don't
    Oh come on. Jenrick is not offering a policy, he is offering a posture, like you do most of the time you are on here. However, you have license to posture and write provocative nonsense, because being court jester is kind of your job and a man has to eat and indeed drink to a reasonable standard.

    Jenrick and the other pantomime villains in the Tory leadership race do not have that license. Kings do not get to wear motely. This isn´t even remotely serious politics, and the Tories are no longer a serious political party if they go down this sub MAGA road. Even you must admit they lost the plot under Truss and instead of trying to get together a coherent set of actual, you know, *Conservative* policies, they have struck off further and further into tin foil hat land. JRM suggesting that the Tories stand down in 100 seats? Um the Tories currently hold only 121 seats, so this is basically delusion or a death wish. Actually scratch that, its Rees Mogg, so its probably both.

    This country is not going to elect a Tory party in thrall to this kind of twattery. They have had two strikes already, if they can not or will not grow up, then the Lib Dems, a party with a large and growing national organisation and a boat load of new and very good MPs as well as loads more money, that will be eating their lunch, not Reform, which is a Putin compromised, Alt-media led chimera,
    I don't give a fuck what a fool like you thinks of the Tories and their policies, so you can spare yourself all this typing
    Yeah yeah. Whatever.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    That's absolutely delicious.

    They've been in power for, checks notes.. 89 days
    Miliband led Cameron in the polls in September 2010.
    He led the polls in 2015 too, the polls have always overstated Labour, this could in fact be much worse for Labour than people realise. Sentiment is very poor right now. Don't get me wrong the Tories will contrive to blow it by putting up Jenrick or Kemi but they've got time on their side to find a formula that works. Labour have got no time, people expect results and for things in the country to change for the better, yet they're talking about managed decline.
    I don’t think Starmer is trying to win votes right now. He has deliberately set out to be unpopular. Well, he’s achieved his objective. Played for and got.

    Will be interesting to see what happens next.
    I don't think he set out to be unpopular because of dodgy donations and freebies though. If he was unpopular because of delivering a big dose of horrible medicine then sure, but Labour haven't even really made any tough decisions other than the WFA withdrawal, there's at least 10-15x as many left before the next election if Labour are serious about fixing the NHS and public services because it involves mass public sector redundancies and spending cuts.
    It’s going to be an interesting 4-5 years. The only thing I predict is that we cannot predict what will happen. Wiser head keep their powder dry right now.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,411
    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Oh do pipe down

    The Conservative Party exists to propose Conservative, rightwing policies. Not policies that YOU, a whiney centrist Remoaner, find palatable. It's like me criticising the SNP for pursuing Scottish independence - I can argue that it is far harder to achieve than they will admit (and it is), but I can't expect them to argue for the Union and then get all huffy and angry when they don't
    Why do they insist that every party must agree with their statist drivel? Like there should be a gentleman's agreement not to let the plebs get ideas about deporting dangerous migrants and being able to afford heating into their heads.

    If you want to support a social democratic party, there are two big ones - you don't need every party.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The conservative conference is putting the Labour conference into perspective. Whatever bullets Labour might have fired into their feet recently they are in a far better state than the Tories.

    I was surprised that some of them were still banging on about Blair today. Like old lefties still going on about Thatcher. They can’t figure out if they want to defeat or become Farage.

    Ironic you say this when tonight's poll puts Sunak’s government ahead of Starmer’s !!!!
    I’m sure Sunak would be delighted to have Starmer problems today.
    He wouldn't have his problems as he would have made different choices
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228

    Cookie said:

    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Leaving the ECHR and querying migrant crime rates may be beyond uour particular pale, but I don't think either are particularly outside of mainstream opinion.
    If leaving the ECHR solved it I'd have no problem leaving the ECHR.

    Leaving the ECHR alone won't solve it. There are all sorts of UN conventions and international treaties we'd get caught up instead. And even if we did clear all that the Channel is pretty binary - UK or French waters - so we'd have to either ram them back into French seas over and over again until they got bored, or became casualties, ignore French sovereignty and dump them back at Dunkirk, or do a returns deal.

    It's a massive tangled ball of wool. Unpicking a simple peripheral thread isn't an answer.
    The ECHR interferes in numerous ways, its not just the dinghy people. It is stuffed with Woke lawyers and judges proactively making LAW not judgements - Jonathan Sumption is right. It is obscene that we can't deport murderers and rapists because "as they are rapists they will be in trouble back home". Give me strength

    If Britain is ever going to return to health we have to destroy the Blob and the ECHR is part of that nexus of lefty agencies, laws, treaties, NGOs, that blobbily squats upon us

    Fuck it. The ECHR is not Holy Writ. People said we could and should never leave the EU but we did, it can be done, and doing this thing won't be a fraction as painful as Brexit

    But you are right in one regard. This is necessary but not sufficient. We need something close to a revolution now, a Thatcherite rampage through the institutions, overturning the tables of the moralising moneychangers. Enuff
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick's latest gambit.

    "Migrant crime rate being covered up, says Robert Jenrick
    Tory leadership contender says public ‘deserves to know the truth’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/migrant-crime-rate-is-being-covered-up-says-robert-jenrick/

    The truth is Jenrick is an odious scum sucking arsehole !
    I am not sure he is quite as nice as that.

    In fact the Tories are staring disaster in the face if this loathsome, crooked, creep gets to play act at being their leader. This drivel about the ECHR is childish and ridiculous politics and about as disreputable as any British politician has ever been, even including Johnson. Jenrick is more like a South American caudillo than any British politico.

    It is now obvious that the Conservative Party really has lost the will to live. I for one am totally sick of this Tory crap. Just hurry up and die already. .
    Oh do pipe down

    The Conservative Party exists to propose Conservative, rightwing policies. Not policies that YOU, a whiney centrist Remoaner, find palatable. It's like me criticising the SNP for pursuing Scottish independence - I can argue that it is far harder to achieve than they will admit (and it is), but I can't expect them to argue for the Union and then get all huffy and angry when they don't
    Why do they insist that every party must agree with their statist drivel? Like there should be a gentleman's agreement not to let the plebs get ideas about deporting dangerous migrants and being able to afford heating into their heads.

    If you want to support a social democratic party, there are two big ones - you don't need every party.
    It's because they are total and utter wankers with zero self-awareness, and pompous to boot
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    Absence making the heart grow fonder, I see.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,402
    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    That's absolutely delicious.

    They've been in power for, checks notes.. 89 days
    Miliband led Cameron in the polls in September 2010.
    He led the polls in 2015 too, the polls have always overstated Labour, this could in fact be much worse for Labour than people realise. Sentiment is very poor right now. Don't get me wrong the Tories will contrive to blow it by putting up Jenrick or Kemi but they've got time on their side to find a formula that works. Labour have got no time, people expect results and for things in the country to change for the better, yet they're talking about managed decline.
    I don’t think Starmer is trying to win votes right now. He has deliberately set out to be unpopular. Well, he’s achieved his objective. Played for and got.

    Will be interesting to see what happens next.
    He's become unpopular and has now said he's prepared to accept that.

    It's not the same thing.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,010
    edited September 30
    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/more-people-prefer-sunak-government-to-starmer-poll-finds/

    "More people now prefer Rishi Sunak’s government to Sir Keir Starmer’s administration, a poll has found.

    A survey by think tank More in Common shows the Labour Government is already less liked than the previous Tory one, despite taking power less than three months ago.

    The poll of 2,080 adults showed that 31 per cent preferred Mr Sunak’s government, while 29 per cent preferred the current one."

    How fucking shite can you get. Already more unpopular than a government 14 years in.

    That's absolutely delicious.

    They've been in power for, checks notes.. 89 days
    Miliband led Cameron in the polls in September 2010.
    He led the polls in 2015 too, the polls have always overstated Labour, this could in fact be much worse for Labour than people realise. Sentiment is very poor right now. Don't get me wrong the Tories will contrive to blow it by putting up Jenrick or Kemi but they've got time on their side to find a formula that works. Labour have got no time, people expect results and for things in the country to change for the better, yet they're talking about managed decline.
    I don’t think Starmer is trying to win votes right now. He has deliberately set out to be unpopular. Well, he’s achieved his objective. Played for and got.

    Will be interesting to see what happens next.
    Are you saying he has set out to take over £100,000 of freebies and be involved with cronyism from day one, withdraw the WFP while caving to train drivers on £65,000 pa, reverse the decision on non doms, and protect his sons education by accepting a gift of the use of an 18 million pound townhouse is deliberate
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