The State of the Union, Week 5 – politicalbetting.com

System

The State of the Union, Week 5 – politicalbetting.com

Some movement this week, although still not much – and not very consistent.

Read the full story here

eek

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

MaxPB

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Jonathan

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Is that a yes or a no?

The reason I ask is that there is a lot of ideology out there today that gets in the way of progress. Lots of entrenched positions and pride. Some people would rather see the ship go down than change their position.

turbotubbs

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

Leon

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Perhaps this is Labour’s plan. To so comprehensively ruin the country - even more than it is ruined now - we will beg to go back into the EU

But I doubt they’d have us as we’d be a net drain on their resources and everyone in Britain would immediately flee to Poland and Romania for superior lifestyles

turbotubbs

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Perhaps this is Labour’s plan. To so comprehensively ruin the country - even more than it is ruined now - we will beg to go back into the EU

But I doubt they’d have us as we’d be a net drain on their resources and everyone in Britain would immediately flee to Poland and Romania for superior lifestyles

It certainly wasn't the case pre 2020 - we were net contributers, even with the rebate.

TheScreamingEagles

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

In your face France.

MaxPB

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Is that a yes or a no?

The reason I ask is that there is a lot of ideology out there today that gets in the way of progress. Lots of entrenched positions and pride. Some people would rather see the ship go down than change their position.

As I said if the evidence bar was met I'd be interested to see what rejoining might bring to the nation. I'm extremely sceptical about it though, the EU has managed in short order to regulate AI development out of the bloc due to simplistic fear mongering by people who don't actually understand the industry.

I guess that's a maybe to a yes with a very high bar.

MaxPB

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Perhaps this is Labour’s plan. To so comprehensively ruin the country - even more than it is ruined now - we will beg to go back into the EU

But I doubt they’d have us as we’d be a net drain on their resources and everyone in Britain would immediately flee to Poland and Romania for superior lifestyles

We don't meet the debt/deficit requirements in any case, though I guess an exception could be made under a "former member" framework.

Leon

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Perhaps this is Labour’s plan. To so comprehensively ruin the country - even more than it is ruined now - we will beg to go back into the EU

But I doubt they’d have us as we’d be a net drain on their resources and everyone in Britain would immediately flee to Poland and Romania for superior lifestyles

We don't meet the debt/deficit requirements in any case, though I guess an exception could be made under a "former member" framework.

I genuinely think we’d get vetoed. France just because. Malta for the lolz. Spain because Gibraltar and they don’t want our obese pensioners back

It just takes one country out of 27

The negotiations would take decades and at the end it might be No, no UKG would spend all that time and capital on such a risk. Not gonna happen

SM/CU - yes possibly

MarqueeMark

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

tlg86

Case closed:

https://order-order.com/2024/09/30/simon-case-announces-resignation/

turbotubbs

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

williamglenn

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Perhaps this is Labour’s plan. To so comprehensively ruin the country - even more than it is ruined now - we will beg to go back into the EU

But I doubt they’d have us as we’d be a net drain on their resources and everyone in Britain would immediately flee to Poland and Romania for superior lifestyles

We don't meet the debt/deficit requirements in any case, though I guess an exception could be made under a "former member" framework.

I genuinely think we’d get vetoed. France just because. Malta for the lolz. Spain because Gibraltar and they don’t want our obese pensioners back

It just takes one country out of 27

The negotiations would take decades and at the end it might be No, no UKG would spend all that time and capital on such a risk. Not gonna happen

SM/CU - yes possibly

France would put it to a referendum and the temptation for them to say Non unless we also join the Euro would be too great.

turbotubbs

williamglenn said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Perhaps this is Labour’s plan. To so comprehensively ruin the country - even more than it is ruined now - we will beg to go back into the EU

But I doubt they’d have us as we’d be a net drain on their resources and everyone in Britain would immediately flee to Poland and Romania for superior lifestyles

We don't meet the debt/deficit requirements in any case, though I guess an exception could be made under a "former member" framework.

I genuinely think we’d get vetoed. France just because. Malta for the lolz. Spain because Gibraltar and they don’t want our obese pensioners back

It just takes one country out of 27

The negotiations would take decades and at the end it might be No, no UKG would spend all that time and capital on such a risk. Not gonna happen

SM/CU - yes possibly

France would put it to a referendum and the temptation for them to say Non unless we also join the Euro would be too great.

What right would we have to reject the Euro if we were going back in? Its surely fully committed if we want to get back in.

viewcode

FPT

HYUFD said:

HYUFD said:

Interesting article in Unherd. 'It is largely forgotten that when Thatcher replaced Ted Heath in 1975, she was also seen as a lightweight who would be Labour’s “secret weapon”. The former chancellor and her leadership rival, Reginald Maudling, described her victory as the “darkest day in the history of the Tory party”. And polls in 1978 suggested the Tories would enjoy a significant increase in support if it were to return the leadership to Heath. What actually won her power in 1979 was not her radicalism or iron will, but Labour’s total failure in government. “We lost the Election because people didn’t get their dustbins emptied, because commuters were angry about train disruption and because of too much union power,” James Callaghan argued, lamenting the Winter of Discontent which upended his premiership. Rishi Sunak could well say the same of his own time in government...

Those close to Starmer believe that Robert Jenrick has come closest to having the kind of political analysis that could be most problematic for Labour. The 14 years of Tory government were very bad, Jenrick states, because the government showed itself incapable of delivering the systemic reforms that would allow it to deliver what it promised. Only by clearing away the bureaucratic and legal obstacles binding the government’s hands can voters’ wishes be delivered — from reducing immigration and bogus asylum claims to improving economic growth and the performance of public services. This is the message Labour fears — but not the messenger. The words they used to describe him included “weird” and “extreme”. They also believe he reaches too quickly for old Thatcherite solutions to today’s problems. Jenrick has alighted on the systemic nature of Britain’s ills, but has yet to really embrace the new world to which Britain belongs — a world that requires more than reheated Thatcherism if Britain is to prosper. To those close to Starmer, Jenrick looks more like a second William Hague — or even Iain Duncan Smith — than a David Cameron, let alone a Margaret Thatcher.'

By contrast, Tugendhat and Cleverly are seen as more effective messengers, but with ineffective messages. Tugendhat does not share Jenrick’s belief in the systemic failure of the British state — arguing that Britain has simply lost its dynamism because it has allowed itself to be run by the “rule of lawyers” rather than the rule of law. Cleverly, in contrast, says Britain just needs some of Ronald Reagan’s optimistic spirit. Neither troubles Labour — yet.The candidate that Starmer’s team is least sure about is Badenoch. The size of her personality and willingness to speak her mind makes her a dangerous opponent. Her instinctive, confident conservatism also appears fresh in a way Jenrick’s does not. And yet she is also seen as potentially self-destructive in a way the others are not. She has the self-confidence of Thatcher, but does she have the discipline and political skill to navigate the challenges of opposition? After going on Times Radio to declare current rates of maternity pay “excessive” the question raised by T.E. Utley becomes pertinent once again: Is she willing to put aside her devotion to doctrine to avoid the plainly politically suicidal? If she wants to win, the answer must be yes.'
https://unherd.com/2024/09/the-tory-contender-labour-fears/

From the same source

“It is inconceivable that her devotion to doctrine would ever persuade her to do anything which was plainly politically suicidal,” Utley observed.

Compare to

"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" Salvor Hardin (a character in Foundation by Isaac Asimov)

algarkirk

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

It isn't binary. The right answer, until and unless a better one emerges, always has been and still is EFTA/EEA or the Swiss option. Fully in and fully out are both impossible, as we are spending several decades discovering.

The referendum was a tragic forced choice between unacceptable alternatives.

RobD

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

In your face France.

Finally, a positive argument for net zero.


I jest, of course.

JosiasJessop

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

We are very middle-of-the-table in terms of how much we spend on health per capita. (1) Perhaps (whispers softly) we need to spend more on the NHS - in the right areas (*) - and consequently pay more taxes, in order to improve the service?

(1): https://www.statista.com/statistics/236541/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/
(*) I know, I know...

carnforth

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

In your face France.

In other "France is a bit backwards" news, I saw this and thought of you:

"France's Mr Africa spills the beans on secret cash"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czrm8r1k8nzo

"The 2002 race provided Bourgi with another colourful story, when a representative of Burkinabè leader Blaise Compaoré arrived in Paris with a large sum of money concealed in djembe drums.

According to Bourgi, he accompanied the envoy to the Elysée Palace, where they were greeted by Chirac. They opened the sealed drums using a pair of scissors, upon which a rain of banknotes fell out."

LostPassword

turbotubbs said:

williamglenn said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Perhaps this is Labour’s plan. To so comprehensively ruin the country - even more than it is ruined now - we will beg to go back into the EU

But I doubt they’d have us as we’d be a net drain on their resources and everyone in Britain would immediately flee to Poland and Romania for superior lifestyles

We don't meet the debt/deficit requirements in any case, though I guess an exception could be made under a "former member" framework.

I genuinely think we’d get vetoed. France just because. Malta for the lolz. Spain because Gibraltar and they don’t want our obese pensioners back

It just takes one country out of 27

The negotiations would take decades and at the end it might be No, no UKG would spend all that time and capital on such a risk. Not gonna happen

SM/CU - yes possibly

France would put it to a referendum and the temptation for them to say Non unless we also join the Euro would be too great.

What right would we have to reject the Euro if we were going back in? Its surely fully committed if we want to get back in.

I think there are a number of countries who are de jure fully committed to joining the Euro, but are de facto staying indefinitely out.

It's not the sort of fudge I'd favour, but it's not impossible.

Leon

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

williamglenn

algarkirk said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

It isn't binary. The right answer, until and unless a better one emerges, always has been and still is EFTA/EEA or the Swiss option. Fully in and fully out are both impossible, as we are spending several decades discovering.

The referendum was a tragic forced choice between unacceptable alternatives.

You shouldn't write off the current deal as being the best option.

We have tariff and quote free trade with the EU and have regulatory freedom so are able to benefit from avoiding any future unknown unknowns that the EU might get wrong. AI already looks like being an area where being outside the single market will be beneficial.

JosiasJessop

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

I'm quite sad about that, for several reasons, from the way coal utterly transformed Britain and the world, to the personal way I used the power station as a sign on the M1 for when I had to get ready to leave the motorway...

viewcode

"Megalopolis" is out. Here are some reviews, one pro, one con

Pro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWZwHqVOuiw
Con: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZdlH6bh6o0

The consensus is that it's a train wreck. The budget is too big, the script too incoherent, the director too stoned (allegedly). Still at least FFC can reassure himself it's not as shit as "Napoleon"

turbotubbs

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

Leon

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

Think the first. Migrating to Thailand

turbotubbs

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

Think the first. Migrating to Thailand

They'll soon miss the overcast gloom and 12 degrees in September. They'll be back...

Why not pay in the UK? My father has had a hip and knee done in the last two years, 15K each time.

TheScreamingEagles

viewcode said:

"Megalopolis" is out. Here are some reviews, one pro, one con

Pro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWZwHqVOuiw
Con: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZdlH6bh6o0

The consensus is that it's a train wreck. The budget is too big, the script too incoherent, the director too stoned (allegedly). Still at least FFC can reassure himself it's not as shit as "Napoleon"

If that film sucked any harder I would have orgasmed in the cinema.

Leon

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

Think the first. Migrating to Thailand

They'll soon miss the overcast gloom and 12 degrees in September. They'll be back...

lol. Indeed

When I asked him why he was moving he literally said: “shit weather and the NHS”

I imagine lower taxes help as well. He’s married to a nice Thai woman and they’ve two Anglo-Thai kids. He’s built himself a house there

Leon

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

geoffw

Kemi could be the Conference choice (she would be mine).
But will the MPs swing behind to get her into the final two?

Eabhal

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

You just need to draw a line through the waiting lists between now, before the pandemic and 2010 to realise what the underlying issue is.

What's astonishing is that 1) The Tories increased health spending 2) The NHS is about as efficient as other health systems around the world 3) We spend a modest percentage of GDP on health (and much less than the US) 4) Our demographics are actually pretty healthy due to the massive immigration we've experienced (Korea and Japan are much, much worse).

Folks just need to face up to the fact we're a deeply unhealthy country and don't do enough to deal with it.

bondegezou

geoffw said:

Kemi could be the Conference choice (she would be mine).
But will the MPs swing behind to get her into the final two?

From the outside, Kemi’s maternity pay gaffe and Jenrick’s inability to answer questions on the mystery £75k donation both look petty bad, yet they remain the betting favourites?

geoffw

bondegezou said:

geoffw said:

Kemi could be the Conference choice (she would be mine).
But will the MPs swing behind to get her into the final two?

From the outside, Kemi’s maternity pay gaffe and Jenrick’s inability to answer questions on the mystery £75k donation both look petty bad, yet they remain the betting favourites?

No-one's perfect

turbotubbs

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

MattW

viewcode said:

FPT

HYUFD said:

HYUFD said:

Interesting article in Unherd. 'It is largely forgotten that when Thatcher replaced Ted Heath in 1975, she was also seen as a lightweight who would be Labour’s “secret weapon”. The former chancellor and her leadership rival, Reginald Maudling, described her victory as the “darkest day in the history of the Tory party”. And polls in 1978 suggested the Tories would enjoy a significant increase in support if it were to return the leadership to Heath. What actually won her power in 1979 was not her radicalism or iron will, but Labour’s total failure in government. “We lost the Election because people didn’t get their dustbins emptied, because commuters were angry about train disruption and because of too much union power,” James Callaghan argued, lamenting the Winter of Discontent which upended his premiership. Rishi Sunak could well say the same of his own time in government...

Those close to Starmer believe that Robert Jenrick has come closest to having the kind of political analysis that could be most problematic for Labour. The 14 years of Tory government were very bad, Jenrick states, because the government showed itself incapable of delivering the systemic reforms that would allow it to deliver what it promised. Only by clearing away the bureaucratic and legal obstacles binding the government’s hands can voters’ wishes be delivered — from reducing immigration and bogus asylum claims to improving economic growth and the performance of public services. This is the message Labour fears — but not the messenger. The words they used to describe him included “weird” and “extreme”. They also believe he reaches too quickly for old Thatcherite solutions to today’s problems. Jenrick has alighted on the systemic nature of Britain’s ills, but has yet to really embrace the new world to which Britain belongs — a world that requires more than reheated Thatcherism if Britain is to prosper. To those close to Starmer, Jenrick looks more like a second William Hague — or even Iain Duncan Smith — than a David Cameron, let alone a Margaret Thatcher.'

By contrast, Tugendhat and Cleverly are seen as more effective messengers, but with ineffective messages. Tugendhat does not share Jenrick’s belief in the systemic failure of the British state — arguing that Britain has simply lost its dynamism because it has allowed itself to be run by the “rule of lawyers” rather than the rule of law. Cleverly, in contrast, says Britain just needs some of Ronald Reagan’s optimistic spirit. Neither troubles Labour — yet.The candidate that Starmer’s team is least sure about is Badenoch. The size of her personality and willingness to speak her mind makes her a dangerous opponent. Her instinctive, confident conservatism also appears fresh in a way Jenrick’s does not. And yet she is also seen as potentially self-destructive in a way the others are not. She has the self-confidence of Thatcher, but does she have the discipline and political skill to navigate the challenges of opposition? After going on Times Radio to declare current rates of maternity pay “excessive” the question raised by T.E. Utley becomes pertinent once again: Is she willing to put aside her devotion to doctrine to avoid the plainly politically suicidal? If she wants to win, the answer must be yes.'
https://unherd.com/2024/09/the-tory-contender-labour-fears/

From the same source

“It is inconceivable that her devotion to doctrine would ever persuade her to do anything which was plainly politically suicidal,” Utley observed.

Compare to

"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" Salvor Hardin (a character in Foundation by Isaac Asimov)

Why did Isaac Asimov have such a thing about MAYORs?

On Kemi, shooting from the hip seems to be a problem with her having a really senior political future. The UK is about 25th from about 28 on measures of European maternity pay, which is even worse than we are on basic state pension.

Is it fair to call this Bercow Syndrome?

FrankBooth

Simon Case told the Prime minister this morning that he's stepping down at the end of the year.

Eabhal

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

I disagree on sports injuries - we desperately need more people to be active.

In fact, this is the bigger risk to the NHS. I run 40km a week, cycle to work, have a healthy BMI and chuck in loads of fruit and veg. I pay loads of tax to fund the NHS.

Yet when I need a dodgy mole looked at, or a quick operation to get me back to work properly, I'm sat behind months or years worth of people who have effectively maltreated their own bodies (and minds, sadly). It's not always their fault, yet I begrudge them. The social contract begins to break.

Leon

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Leon

Eabhal said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

I disagree on sports injuries - we desperately need more people to be active.

In fact, this is the bigger risk to the NHS. I run 40km a week, cycle to work, have a healthy BMI and chuck in loads of fruit and veg. I pay loads of tax to fund the NHS.

Yet when I need a dodgy mole looked at, or a quick operation to get me back to work properly, I'm sat behind months or years worth of people who have effectively maltreated their own bodies (and minds, sadly). It's not always their fault, yet I begrudge them. The social contract begins to break.

You are also quite often behind millions of immigrants who have arrived in the last 20 years, all now using the NHS

Like it or not, fair or not, that irks a lot of people

turbotubbs

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

MattW

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I approve the essence of this message, having been unable to consider medical insurance since my early 30s due to the essentially random outcome of a stomach bug.

williamglenn

FrankBooth said:

Simon Case told the Prime minister this morning that he's stepping down at the end of the year.

He’s fired Starmer?

Leon

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

It’s clearly better private - bumrungrad hospital is like The Dorchester - but I’ve also used Thai public healthcare. It’s fine. You can pay a fairly small fee and you get treated like a Thai person

It’s no worse than the average NHS hospital. And the nurses are slimmer

kamski

LostPassword said:

turbotubbs said:

williamglenn said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Perhaps this is Labour’s plan. To so comprehensively ruin the country - even more than it is ruined now - we will beg to go back into the EU

But I doubt they’d have us as we’d be a net drain on their resources and everyone in Britain would immediately flee to Poland and Romania for superior lifestyles

We don't meet the debt/deficit requirements in any case, though I guess an exception could be made under a "former member" framework.

I genuinely think we’d get vetoed. France just because. Malta for the lolz. Spain because Gibraltar and they don’t want our obese pensioners back

It just takes one country out of 27

The negotiations would take decades and at the end it might be No, no UKG would spend all that time and capital on such a risk. Not gonna happen

SM/CU - yes possibly

France would put it to a referendum and the temptation for them to say Non unless we also join the Euro would be too great.

What right would we have to reject the Euro if we were going back in? Its surely fully committed if we want to get back in.

I think there are a number of countries who are de jure fully committed to joining the Euro, but are de facto staying indefinitely out.

It's not the sort of fudge I'd favour, but it's not impossible.

Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland have been fully committed to joining the Euro since they joined the EU in 2004!

FrankBooth

Anyone want to guess the number of cabinet ministers under Simon Case?

turbotubbs

Eabhal said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

I disagree on sports injuries - we desperately need more people to be active.

In fact, this is the bigger risk to the NHS. I run 40km a week, cycle to work, have a healthy BMI and chuck in loads of fruit and veg. I pay loads of tax to fund the NHS.

Yet when I need a dodgy mole looked at, or a quick operation to get me back to work properly, I'm sat behind months or years worth of people who have effectively maltreated their own bodies (and minds, sadly). It's not always their fault, yet I begrudge them. The social contract begins to break.

I think there is a line with sports. Yes we want to encourage them, but we also need to look at risks. I think its similar to things were you may need the coast guard or mountain rescue. I think a small insurance sum would not go amiss (and I am thinking small).

turbotubbs

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

It’s clearly better private - bumrungrad hospital is like The Dorchester - but I’ve also used Thai public healthcare. It’s fine. You can pay a fairly small fee and you get treated like a Thai person

It’s no worse than the average NHS hospital. And the nurses are slimmer

Oddly a lot of the Thai nurses that work in the UK are not slim. I have distinct memories of one who was rather portly and sounded out of breath just moving round my room. Maybe only the larger ones emigrate? Or maybe they just get the Heathrow injection on arrival?

geoffw

FrankBooth said:

Anyone want to guess the number of cabinet ministers under Simon Case?

Does he have more than Skir?

Fishing

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Is that a yes or a no?

The reason I ask is that there is a lot of ideology out there today that gets in the way of progress. Lots of entrenched positions and pride. Some people would rather see the ship go down than change their position.

As I said if the evidence bar was met I'd be interested to see what rejoining might bring to the nation. I'm extremely sceptical about it though, the EU has managed in short order to regulate AI development out of the bloc due to simplistic fear mongering by people who don't actually understand the industry.

I guess that's a maybe to a yes with a very high bar.

Losing one small industry, however much of the flavour of the month, is utterly trivial compared with losing control of our monetary and exchange rate (and increasingly fiscal) policies if we rejoined and had to join the euro. The ERM catastrophe in the early 90s was bad enough but we were forced out in time to avoid irretrievable disaster. The single currency would be far more difficult to escape from.

Leon

This is general healthcare in Bangkok, NOT private

This is where I go if I don’t want the luxury of private. This is a fair review on Tripadvisor


“I was in Bangkok for two days previously in Singapore for a long weekend. I'm from USA and live in a not sunny area. I haven't traveled to a sunny destination for several years so I forgot that I have a reaction to the sun sometimes. I woke up with a severely itchy rash on my feet and knew that I needed to go in for a steroid injection. I called the number listed for help from my travel insurance from World Nomads. They suggested Bangkok Christian hospital. I and was immediately given an appointment with a dermatologist. I was taken care of in less than 1 hour. Given the injection I needed plus some prescriptions for take along. The staff were courteous and efficient. And it only cost me the equivalent of $45 US. I am a nurse practitioner so I feel that I can give an insider's view of medical care. I worked in acute care settings for many years. I was quite pleased with my experience.”

That’s my experience of the same hospital. Is that better or worse then the average NHS experience?

Malmesbury

viewcode said:

"Megalopolis" is out. Here are some reviews, one pro, one con

Pro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWZwHqVOuiw
Con: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZdlH6bh6o0

The consensus is that it's a train wreck. The budget is too big, the script too incoherent, the director too stoned (allegedly). Still at least FFC can reassure himself it's not as shit as "Napoleon"

I get that Napoleon was largely written by someone who hated Napoleon.

It reminded me of the joke about an Army officer's review - "His men would not follow him, even out of curiosity."

Napoleon was the man who inspired incredible loyalty and tenacity in his army.

turbotubbs

Leon said:

This is general healthcare in Bangkok, NOT private

This is where I go if I don’t want the luxury of private. This is a fair review on Tripadvisor


“I was in Bangkok for two days previously in Singapore for a long weekend. I'm from USA and live in a not sunny area. I haven't traveled to a sunny destination for several years so I forgot that I have a reaction to the sun sometimes. I woke up with a severely itchy rash on my feet and knew that I needed to go in for a steroid injection. I called the number listed for help from my travel insurance from World Nomads. They suggested Bangkok Christian hospital. I and was immediately given an appointment with a dermatologist. I was taken care of in less than 1 hour. Given the injection I needed plus some prescriptions for take along. The staff were courteous and efficient. And it only cost me the equivalent of $45 US. I am a nurse practitioner so I feel that I can give an insider's view of medical care. I worked in acute care settings for many years. I was quite pleased with my experience.”

That’s my experience of the same hospital. Is that better or worse then the average NHS experience?

I think thats great. However what is the average Thai salary? How does $45 stack up compared to that?

SandyRentool

FrankBooth said:

Anyone want to guess the number of cabinet ministers under Simon Case?

In the biblical sense?

FrankBooth

geoffw said:

FrankBooth said:

Anyone want to guess the number of cabinet ministers under Simon Case?

Does he have more than Skir?

The number of Cabinet ministers who have served in his time as Cabinet secretary. I was quite shocked.

kamski

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

If you are over 65 in the USA aren't you probably covered by Medicare?

Anyway, the one thing we can all agree on is the US medical system is bad value for money.

Eabhal

Leon said:

Eabhal said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

I disagree on sports injuries - we desperately need more people to be active.

In fact, this is the bigger risk to the NHS. I run 40km a week, cycle to work, have a healthy BMI and chuck in loads of fruit and veg. I pay loads of tax to fund the NHS.

Yet when I need a dodgy mole looked at, or a quick operation to get me back to work properly, I'm sat behind months or years worth of people who have effectively maltreated their own bodies (and minds, sadly). It's not always their fault, yet I begrudge them. The social contract begins to break.

You are also quite often behind millions of immigrants who have arrived in the last 20 years, all now using the NHS

Like it or not, fair or not, that irks a lot of people

I think that is true until you've finally come off the waiting list or become old enough to require constant care. The ratio of patient:NHS staff is much better for first and second generation immigrants than your average British citizen.

Indeed my own family members views on immigration have been moderated somewhat since their health has declined.

Malmesbury

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

It’s clearly better private - bumrungrad hospital is like The Dorchester - but I’ve also used Thai public healthcare. It’s fine. You can pay a fairly small fee and you get treated like a Thai person

It’s no worse than the average NHS hospital. And the nurses are slimmer

Oddly a lot of the Thai nurses that work in the UK are not slim. I have distinct memories of one who was rather portly and sounded out of breath just moving round my room. Maybe only the larger ones emigrate? Or maybe they just get the Heathrow injection on arrival?

As more general thing - just listed my aunt in hospital - why are so many people working for the NHS in a poor health state? About half the staff looked like they needed to be sat down and given and diet & exercise plan.

What is the root cause of this? No time for exercise?

Sandpit

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Is that a yes or a no?

The reason I ask is that there is a lot of ideology out there today that gets in the way of progress. Lots of entrenched positions and pride. Some people would rather see the ship go down than change their position.

As I said if the evidence bar was met I'd be interested to see what rejoining might bring to the nation. I'm extremely sceptical about it though, the EU has managed in short order to regulate AI development out of the bloc due to simplistic fear mongering by people who don't actually understand the industry.

I guess that's a maybe to a yes with a very high bar.

I should have taken a screenshot of the latest IOS Beta update that said “Apple Intelligence is available to all except the EU and China”.

Eabhal

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

It’s clearly better private - bumrungrad hospital is like The Dorchester - but I’ve also used Thai public healthcare. It’s fine. You can pay a fairly small fee and you get treated like a Thai person

It’s no worse than the average NHS hospital. And the nurses are slimmer

Oddly a lot of the Thai nurses that work in the UK are not slim. I have distinct memories of one who was rather portly and sounded out of breath just moving round my room. Maybe only the larger ones emigrate? Or maybe they just get the Heathrow injection on arrival?

As more general thing - just listed my aunt in hospital - why are so many people working for the NHS in a poor health state? About half the staff looked like they needed to be sat down and given and diet & exercise plan.

What is the root cause of this? No time for exercise?

The staff room. Patients leave chocolate as thank you gifts and they eat gigantic volumes of homemade cake. I usually get the leftovers brought home in tupperware.

There should be a huge signs outside each hospital: DO NOT FEED THE HORSES STAFF

turbotubbs

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

It’s clearly better private - bumrungrad hospital is like The Dorchester - but I’ve also used Thai public healthcare. It’s fine. You can pay a fairly small fee and you get treated like a Thai person

It’s no worse than the average NHS hospital. And the nurses are slimmer

Oddly a lot of the Thai nurses that work in the UK are not slim. I have distinct memories of one who was rather portly and sounded out of breath just moving round my room. Maybe only the larger ones emigrate? Or maybe they just get the Heathrow injection on arrival?

As more general thing - just listed my aunt in hospital - why are so many people working for the NHS in a poor health state? About half the staff looked like they needed to be sat down and given and diet & exercise plan.

What is the root cause of this? No time for exercise?

I think this is a great question.

I vividly recall a rather portly nurse at the GP telling me I was overweight, about 10 years ago. I was, but it largely body type (think big frame) combined with genetics (all my family struggle with weight - we tend to be apple shaped). At the time I was running 3 times a week and regularly doing half marathons, 10 miles races etc. My other markers were all excellent.

I bit my tongue rather than say anything, but the message to be healthy is probably better coming from someone walking the walk.

stodge

Afternoon all

We're back to matters European it would seem. My view has long been it will be a Conservative Prime Minister who will one day (and I'm thinking decades from now) take us back into the European Union and said Prime Minister will only do so when it is unequivocally in the national interest to rejoin.

It clearly isn't now and it may not be for decades and the European Union we rejoin won't be the European Union that exists now - with those variables I could imagine a future Prime Minister seeking to join (or rejoin) a European Union more akin to the much-"loved" Common Market - basically the Single Market minus Freedom of Movement.

The EU is in effect still coming to terms with the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and with huge demographic and political changes on its southern border. It would have been so much easier had the Soviet Union still existed and the strong men of North Africa still endured but that's history for you.

As to this week's Parade of the Unelectables, one big speech, one big idea could flip this contest completely. Does anyone have a big idea? Does anyone have a clue? Redefine Conservatism for the 2030s without all the tired old populist and pseudo-Thatcherite nonsense - redefine Conservatism with a coherent approach to society, immigration, the young and the old in 20 minutes without deviation, hesitation, repetition and interruption?

Kenneth Williams could probably have done it....but then so could Derek Nimmo.

SandyRentool

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

In your face France.

Excusez-moi s’il vous plaît, EDF. Avez-vous some spare leccy we could have? Il n’y a pas beaucoup de vent aujourd’hui.

Leon

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

This is general healthcare in Bangkok, NOT private

This is where I go if I don’t want the luxury of private. This is a fair review on Tripadvisor


“I was in Bangkok for two days previously in Singapore for a long weekend. I'm from USA and live in a not sunny area. I haven't traveled to a sunny destination for several years so I forgot that I have a reaction to the sun sometimes. I woke up with a severely itchy rash on my feet and knew that I needed to go in for a steroid injection. I called the number listed for help from my travel insurance from World Nomads. They suggested Bangkok Christian hospital. I and was immediately given an appointment with a dermatologist. I was taken care of in less than 1 hour. Given the injection I needed plus some prescriptions for take along. The staff were courteous and efficient. And it only cost me the equivalent of $45 US. I am a nurse practitioner so I feel that I can give an insider's view of medical care. I worked in acute care settings for many years. I was quite pleased with my experience.”

That’s my experience of the same hospital. Is that better or worse then the average NHS experience?

I think thats great. However what is the average Thai salary? How does $45 stack up compared to that?

The average median salary in Thailand is $2500 a month

However I’m not sure locals would pay that $45 like an expat. Many would have insurance etc

Nigelb

On topic, the more sinister aspect of this is that the ground I being prepared for Trump to again claim the election is stolen.

This morning right-wing red wavers are claiming the PA poll average has flipped to Trump when not a single independent poll taken in the past month has Trump leading. The only polls showing Trump ahead are right-aligned poll working to push the poll average. It's ridiculous.
https://x.com/SimonWDC/status/1840702380414767528

Stuartinromford

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

It’s clearly better private - bumrungrad hospital is like The Dorchester - but I’ve also used Thai public healthcare. It’s fine. You can pay a fairly small fee and you get treated like a Thai person

It’s no worse than the average NHS hospital. And the nurses are slimmer

Oddly a lot of the Thai nurses that work in the UK are not slim. I have distinct memories of one who was rather portly and sounded out of breath just moving round my room. Maybe only the larger ones emigrate? Or maybe they just get the Heathrow injection on arrival?

As more general thing - just listed my aunt in hospital - why are so many people working for the NHS in a poor health state? About half the staff looked like they needed to be sat down and given and diet & exercise plan.

What is the root cause of this? No time for exercise?

Quite possibly. When I have a work schedule that is 100% on, my self-care goes out of the window. And the NHS functions by compensating for shoddy infrastructure by throwing nearly enough staff at the problem and making work until they almost (but not quite) see their ancestors beckoning them over to the other side.

Sean_F

The problem is that all the poll averages are affected by junk polling.

Rasmussen, Trafalgar, Big Village, and Morning Consult, which feature heavily, are all junk pollsters.

DavidL

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

Let's all just remember that it was under a Labour government, a Labour government, that the last coal powered power station in this country closed.

Anabobazina

williamglenn said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Perhaps this is Labour’s plan. To so comprehensively ruin the country - even more than it is ruined now - we will beg to go back into the EU

But I doubt they’d have us as we’d be a net drain on their resources and everyone in Britain would immediately flee to Poland and Romania for superior lifestyles

We don't meet the debt/deficit requirements in any case, though I guess an exception could be made under a "former member" framework.

I genuinely think we’d get vetoed. France just because. Malta for the lolz. Spain because Gibraltar and they don’t want our obese pensioners back

It just takes one country out of 27

The negotiations would take decades and at the end it might be No, no UKG would spend all that time and capital on such a risk. Not gonna happen

SM/CU - yes possibly

France would put it to a referendum and the temptation for them to say Non unless we also join the Euro would be too great.

Would Joe Public care much nowadays if we did join the Euro? As no-one uses cash anymore I doubt the attachment to 'The Pound' is what is was twenty years ago when people still used coloured paper and scraps of metal as a form of barter.

Leon

Turns out Thailand has one of the best healthcare systems in the world. WHO knew

https://www.livemint.com/industry/thailand-healthcare-thai-healthcare-public-health-life-expectancy-health-insurance-developing-country-11725530698359.html

Gallowgate

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

@Luckyguy1983 in shambles

turbotubbs

DavidL said:

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

Let's all just remember that it was under a Labour government, a Labour government, that the last coal powered power station in this country closed.

But also the last steel making too...

Anabobazina

Sean_F said:

The problem is that all the poll averages are affected by junk polling.

Rasmussen, Trafalgar, Big Village, and Morning Consult, which feature heavily, are all junk pollsters.

It's never been clear to me why poll aggregators feature them –– makes no sense.

(P.S. I didn't realise that MC were a junk pollster but happy to take your word for it)

Malmesbury

turbotubbs said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

It’s clearly better private - bumrungrad hospital is like The Dorchester - but I’ve also used Thai public healthcare. It’s fine. You can pay a fairly small fee and you get treated like a Thai person

It’s no worse than the average NHS hospital. And the nurses are slimmer

Oddly a lot of the Thai nurses that work in the UK are not slim. I have distinct memories of one who was rather portly and sounded out of breath just moving round my room. Maybe only the larger ones emigrate? Or maybe they just get the Heathrow injection on arrival?

As more general thing - just listed my aunt in hospital - why are so many people working for the NHS in a poor health state? About half the staff looked like they needed to be sat down and given and diet & exercise plan.

What is the root cause of this? No time for exercise?

I think this is a great question.

I vividly recall a rather portly nurse at the GP telling me I was overweight, about 10 years ago. I was, but it largely body type (think big frame) combined with genetics (all my family struggle with weight - we tend to be apple shaped). At the time I was running 3 times a week and regularly doing half marathons, 10 miles races etc. My other markers were all excellent.

I bit my tongue rather than say anything, but the message to be healthy is probably better coming from someone walking the walk.

I had near enough the same thing last year.

A practise nurse suggesting I should lose some weight. Now, while that might have been true (in term of 15kgs), she could have literally lost 50% of her own body weight. Without running any risk of vanishing.

Given that I'd come back, the day before, from rowing 25 miles.....

Sean_F

Anabobazina said:

Sean_F said:

The problem is that all the poll averages are affected by junk polling.

Rasmussen, Trafalgar, Big Village, and Morning Consult, which feature heavily, are all junk pollsters.

It's never been clear to me why poll aggregators feature them –– makes no sense.

(P.S. I didn't realise that MC were a junk pollster but happy to take your word for it)

538 rates MC 107th in terms of accuracy.

Selzer, Emerson, Siena, Fox, Monmouth, Suffolk, Yougov, Quinnipiac, Pew, are the gold standard.

stodge

DavidL said:

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

Let's all just remember that it was under a Labour government, a Labour government, that the last coal powered power station in this country closed.

First, it closes at midnight tonight so strictly speaking, it hasn't closed or ceased power generation yet.

Second, the decision was taken long ago during the wasted Conservative years - could it have been stopped or reversed by the incoming Labour Government? Probably not as the decommissioning process started in 2022 and was nearly completed when the election happened.

Third, was it the Government's decision or was it EON UK's? Not sure but it's a cheap shot to lay the blame at Ed Miliband's door. One of my friends thinks there will be power cuts this winter - I'm much less convinced. It will be interesting to see what happens if we do get a prolonged spell of still cold weather but it's been years since we've had that and there's plenty of evidence of an increasingly turbulent and mobile atmosphere with plenty of energy to generate wind power.

Fourth, where I probably do agree with some on here is it's foolish to put all our eggs in the renewables basket - we should continue to use coal, nuclear and, dare I say it, investigate fracking to ensure we have other options in case the wind stops blowing or the sun stops shining or the tides stop turning (no doubt if any of that happens, Labour will get the blame).

Leon

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

This is general healthcare in Bangkok, NOT private

This is where I go if I don’t want the luxury of private. This is a fair review on Tripadvisor


“I was in Bangkok for two days previously in Singapore for a long weekend. I'm from USA and live in a not sunny area. I haven't traveled to a sunny destination for several years so I forgot that I have a reaction to the sun sometimes. I woke up with a severely itchy rash on my feet and knew that I needed to go in for a steroid injection. I called the number listed for help from my travel insurance from World Nomads. They suggested Bangkok Christian hospital. I and was immediately given an appointment with a dermatologist. I was taken care of in less than 1 hour. Given the injection I needed plus some prescriptions for take along. The staff were courteous and efficient. And it only cost me the equivalent of $45 US. I am a nurse practitioner so I feel that I can give an insider's view of medical care. I worked in acute care settings for many years. I was quite pleased with my experience.”

That’s my experience of the same hospital. Is that better or worse then the average NHS experience?

I think thats great. However what is the average Thai salary? How does $45 stack up compared to that?

The average median salary in Thailand is $2500 a month

However I’m not sure locals would pay that $45 like an expat. Many would have insurance etc

Just to finesse my own point

Turns out 99.5% of Thais have universal health insurance. They get faster and better treatment than we get from the NHS - this is probably why their life expectancy (despite being a middle income country) is about to overtake life expectancy in the UK. Yet they only spend 6% of GDP on health

They also have loads of sunshine and delicious papaya salads, and way less crime

People who don’t travel much don’t realise how Britain is, relatively speaking, turning into a mismanaged toilet, with the 2nd most miserable population on earth

turbotubbs

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

It’s clearly better private - bumrungrad hospital is like The Dorchester - but I’ve also used Thai public healthcare. It’s fine. You can pay a fairly small fee and you get treated like a Thai person

It’s no worse than the average NHS hospital. And the nurses are slimmer

Oddly a lot of the Thai nurses that work in the UK are not slim. I have distinct memories of one who was rather portly and sounded out of breath just moving round my room. Maybe only the larger ones emigrate? Or maybe they just get the Heathrow injection on arrival?

As more general thing - just listed my aunt in hospital - why are so many people working for the NHS in a poor health state? About half the staff looked like they needed to be sat down and given and diet & exercise plan.

What is the root cause of this? No time for exercise?

I think this is a great question.

I vividly recall a rather portly nurse at the GP telling me I was overweight, about 10 years ago. I was, but it largely body type (think big frame) combined with genetics (all my family struggle with weight - we tend to be apple shaped). At the time I was running 3 times a week and regularly doing half marathons, 10 miles races etc. My other markers were all excellent.

I bit my tongue rather than say anything, but the message to be healthy is probably better coming from someone walking the walk.

I had near enough the same thing last year.

A practise nurse suggesting I should lose some weight. Now, while that might have been true (in term of 15kgs), she could have literally lost 50% of her own body weight. Without running any risk of vanishing.

Given that I'd come back, the day before, from rowing 25 miles.....

Part of the issue is the need for simple measures (this quick and easy to apply, such as the population statistic BMI). BMI fails for individuals far too often, and was never intended for use in that way.

Leon

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

It’s clearly better private - bumrungrad hospital is like The Dorchester - but I’ve also used Thai public healthcare. It’s fine. You can pay a fairly small fee and you get treated like a Thai person

It’s no worse than the average NHS hospital. And the nurses are slimmer

Oddly a lot of the Thai nurses that work in the UK are not slim. I have distinct memories of one who was rather portly and sounded out of breath just moving round my room. Maybe only the larger ones emigrate? Or maybe they just get the Heathrow injection on arrival?

As more general thing - just listed my aunt in hospital - why are so many people working for the NHS in a poor health state? About half the staff looked like they needed to be sat down and given and diet & exercise plan.

What is the root cause of this? No time for exercise?

I think this is a great question.

I vividly recall a rather portly nurse at the GP telling me I was overweight, about 10 years ago. I was, but it largely body type (think big frame) combined with genetics (all my family struggle with weight - we tend to be apple shaped). At the time I was running 3 times a week and regularly doing half marathons, 10 miles races etc. My other markers were all excellent.

I bit my tongue rather than say anything, but the message to be healthy is probably better coming from someone walking the walk.

I had near enough the same thing last year.

A practise nurse suggesting I should lose some weight. Now, while that might have been true (in term of 15kgs), she could have literally lost 50% of her own body weight. Without running any risk of vanishing.

Given that I'd come back, the day before, from rowing 25 miles.....

That’s what struck me during Covid with all the ludicrous NHS dancing videos

“My God, the nurses are fat”

The only people fatter than British nurses are British coppers

turbotubbs

Leon said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

This is general healthcare in Bangkok, NOT private

This is where I go if I don’t want the luxury of private. This is a fair review on Tripadvisor


“I was in Bangkok for two days previously in Singapore for a long weekend. I'm from USA and live in a not sunny area. I haven't traveled to a sunny destination for several years so I forgot that I have a reaction to the sun sometimes. I woke up with a severely itchy rash on my feet and knew that I needed to go in for a steroid injection. I called the number listed for help from my travel insurance from World Nomads. They suggested Bangkok Christian hospital. I and was immediately given an appointment with a dermatologist. I was taken care of in less than 1 hour. Given the injection I needed plus some prescriptions for take along. The staff were courteous and efficient. And it only cost me the equivalent of $45 US. I am a nurse practitioner so I feel that I can give an insider's view of medical care. I worked in acute care settings for many years. I was quite pleased with my experience.”

That’s my experience of the same hospital. Is that better or worse then the average NHS experience?

I think thats great. However what is the average Thai salary? How does $45 stack up compared to that?

The average median salary in Thailand is $2500 a month

However I’m not sure locals would pay that $45 like an expat. Many would have insurance etc

Just to finesse my own point

Turns out 99.5% of Thais have universal health insurance. They get faster and better treatment than we get from the NHS - this is probably why their life expectancy (despite being a middle income country) is about to overtake life expectancy in the UK. Yet they only spend 6% of GDP on health

They also have loads of sunshine and delicious papaya salads, and way less crime

People who don’t travel much don’t realise how Britain is, relatively speaking, turning into a mismanaged toilet, with the 2nd most miserable population on earth

What is the obesity rate? I'd suspect that currently Thais tend to be a lot less prone to being overweight, eat more fish and vegetables/fruit etc. That may change with time.

geoffw

Leon said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

This is general healthcare in Bangkok, NOT private

This is where I go if I don’t want the luxury of private. This is a fair review on Tripadvisor


“I was in Bangkok for two days previously in Singapore for a long weekend. I'm from USA and live in a not sunny area. I haven't traveled to a sunny destination for several years so I forgot that I have a reaction to the sun sometimes. I woke up with a severely itchy rash on my feet and knew that I needed to go in for a steroid injection. I called the number listed for help from my travel insurance from World Nomads. They suggested Bangkok Christian hospital. I and was immediately given an appointment with a dermatologist. I was taken care of in less than 1 hour. Given the injection I needed plus some prescriptions for take along. The staff were courteous and efficient. And it only cost me the equivalent of $45 US. I am a nurse practitioner so I feel that I can give an insider's view of medical care. I worked in acute care settings for many years. I was quite pleased with my experience.”

That’s my experience of the same hospital. Is that better or worse then the average NHS experience?

I think thats great. However what is the average Thai salary? How does $45 stack up compared to that?

The average median salary in Thailand is $2500 a month

However I’m not sure locals would pay that $45 like an expat. Many would have insurance etc

Just to finesse my own point

Turns out 99.5% of Thais have universal health insurance. They get faster and better treatment than we get from the NHS - this is probably why their life expectancy (despite being a middle income country) is about to overtake life expectancy in the UK. Yet they only spend 6% of GDP on health

They also have loads of sunshine and delicious papaya salads, and way less crime

People who don’t travel much don’t realise how Britain is, relatively speaking, turning into a mismanaged toilet, with the 2nd most miserable population on earth

Kiplingesque.
“What do they know of England, who only England know?”

Eabhal

Gallowgate said:

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

@Luckyguy1983 in shambles

If Ed Miliband sticks around for 10 years and oversees massive offshore wind, battery installations and our energy independence from the Putin... 21st Century Bevan?

It will be the full works. St Paul's for the funeral. The fourth plinth at Trafalgar Square. The back of the £5 note (lol cash). We'll rename Watts to Milis, and whisper "thanks Ed" when we turn on our heat pumps in the winter.

Leon

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

This is general healthcare in Bangkok, NOT private

This is where I go if I don’t want the luxury of private. This is a fair review on Tripadvisor


“I was in Bangkok for two days previously in Singapore for a long weekend. I'm from USA and live in a not sunny area. I haven't traveled to a sunny destination for several years so I forgot that I have a reaction to the sun sometimes. I woke up with a severely itchy rash on my feet and knew that I needed to go in for a steroid injection. I called the number listed for help from my travel insurance from World Nomads. They suggested Bangkok Christian hospital. I and was immediately given an appointment with a dermatologist. I was taken care of in less than 1 hour. Given the injection I needed plus some prescriptions for take along. The staff were courteous and efficient. And it only cost me the equivalent of $45 US. I am a nurse practitioner so I feel that I can give an insider's view of medical care. I worked in acute care settings for many years. I was quite pleased with my experience.”

That’s my experience of the same hospital. Is that better or worse then the average NHS experience?

I think thats great. However what is the average Thai salary? How does $45 stack up compared to that?

The average median salary in Thailand is $2500 a month

However I’m not sure locals would pay that $45 like an expat. Many would have insurance etc

Just to finesse my own point

Turns out 99.5% of Thais have universal health insurance. They get faster and better treatment than we get from the NHS - this is probably why their life expectancy (despite being a middle income country) is about to overtake life expectancy in the UK. Yet they only spend 6% of GDP on health

They also have loads of sunshine and delicious papaya salads, and way less crime

People who don’t travel much don’t realise how Britain is, relatively speaking, turning into a mismanaged toilet, with the 2nd most miserable population on earth

What is the obesity rate? I'd suspect that currently Thais tend to be a lot less prone to being overweight, eat more fish and vegetables/fruit etc. That may change with time.

Like everyone, Thais are getting noticeably fatter. Especially middle class kids

So yes they may be storing up trouble

TimS

Robert Jenrick looks a bit like Brandon Flowers from The Killers.

Here he is singing “are we human, or are we bastard?”

https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1840659469727916246?s=46

Actually quite a reasonably good looking candidate. Could imagine him acting a charming baddie in a crime drama.

Stuartinromford

stodge said:

DavidL said:

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

Let's all just remember that it was under a Labour government, a Labour government, that the last coal powered power station in this country closed.

First, it closes at midnight tonight so strictly speaking, it hasn't closed or ceased power generation yet.

Second, the decision was taken long ago during the wasted Conservative years - could it have been stopped or reversed by the incoming Labour Government? Probably not as the decommissioning process started in 2022 and was nearly completed when the election happened.

Third, was it the Government's decision or was it EON UK's? Not sure but it's a cheap shot to lay the blame at Ed Miliband's door. One of my friends thinks there will be power cuts this winter - I'm much less convinced. It will be interesting to see what happens if we do get a prolonged spell of still cold weather but it's been years since we've had that and there's plenty of evidence of an increasingly turbulent and mobile atmosphere with plenty of energy to generate wind power.

Fourth, where I probably do agree with some on here is it's foolish to put all our eggs in the renewables basket - we should continue to use coal, nuclear and, dare I say it, investigate fracking to ensure we have other options in case the wind stops blowing or the sun stops shining or the tides stop turning (no doubt if any of that happens, Labour will get the blame).

If there are problems this winter, that won't be because of what EdM has done- the lead times are far too long.

Which is the problem with the "everything is a bit rubbish" narrative. It kind of is (especially if you strip London out of the averages), but that's a consequence of decisions taken over decades, not the last eight weeks or even the last eight years.

Richard_Tyndall

FPT as i would hate for anyone possibly affected to miss the warning:

Completely OT but something of a public service announcement.

ANYONE WITH A PEANUT ALLERGY

Just had an email from my son's school passing on an alert from the Food Standards Agency

https://www.food.gov.uk/news-alerts/news/urgent-allergy-advice-mustard-ingredients-contaminated-with-peanuts

TLDR: If you have a peanut allergy then for now best to avoid food products with mustard ingredients. There is a long list of such products including fast food chain products linked in the article.

TimS

Leon said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

It’s not “astonishing value for money” not any more. It USED to be cheap and cheerful

Now we pay about the OECD average for healthcare yet get decidedly below average service and outcomes

I think it depends what you need. You are (probably) still in the prime(ish) of your life. You have not yet reached the polypharmacy stage of taking 6 different pills a day. As we age we rely more and more on the NHS and we get all the drugs for free once we are over 66.

I was treated for Leukeamia back in 2012 with drugs that in the US are hideously expensive. Clearly, because its the NHS there was no bill for me.

Its also, sadly, a bit of a lottery. My folks live in a biggish village, have a GP surgery that they can easily get appointments on the day for. I live 13 miles away and struggle. Different hospitals do better or worse too.

Arguably though until you have experienced healthcare elsewhere properly, you can't compare easily. The economic numbers are only part of the picture.

I have experienced a lot of private healthcare in Thailand. It’s notably good value for the quality you get

The dentistry is insanely good value compared to NHS dentistry. Does NHS dentistry still exist?

Like much of this you were paying in a poor country, so extracted great value for money. Do the locals have the same access?

It’s clearly better private - bumrungrad hospital is like The Dorchester - but I’ve also used Thai public healthcare. It’s fine. You can pay a fairly small fee and you get treated like a Thai person

It’s no worse than the average NHS hospital. And the nurses are slimmer

Oddly a lot of the Thai nurses that work in the UK are not slim. I have distinct memories of one who was rather portly and sounded out of breath just moving round my room. Maybe only the larger ones emigrate? Or maybe they just get the Heathrow injection on arrival?

As more general thing - just listed my aunt in hospital - why are so many people working for the NHS in a poor health state? About half the staff looked like they needed to be sat down and given and diet & exercise plan.

What is the root cause of this? No time for exercise?

I think this is a great question.

I vividly recall a rather portly nurse at the GP telling me I was overweight, about 10 years ago. I was, but it largely body type (think big frame) combined with genetics (all my family struggle with weight - we tend to be apple shaped). At the time I was running 3 times a week and regularly doing half marathons, 10 miles races etc. My other markers were all excellent.

I bit my tongue rather than say anything, but the message to be healthy is probably better coming from someone walking the walk.

I had near enough the same thing last year.

A practise nurse suggesting I should lose some weight. Now, while that might have been true (in term of 15kgs), she could have literally lost 50% of her own body weight. Without running any risk of vanishing.

Given that I'd come back, the day before, from rowing 25 miles.....

That’s what struck me during Covid with all the ludicrous NHS dancing videos

“My God, the nurses are fat”

The only people fatter than British nurses are British coppers

The phenomenon has been studied. Contributing factors are apparently frequent night shifts, erratic work schedules, binge eating and few sit down meals.

Andy_JS

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

MarqueeMark said:

turbotubbs said:

FPT

What's interesting is the comparison to 1997. For all the confected nature of "Things can only get better", the activists waving Union flags in Downing St, the music, etc there was a real sense of national renewal, hope and optimism. Arguably it was a bit unfair as the economy that Labour inherited was on the up, and people were just sick of the Tories as much as anything else.
Fast forward to 2024. The Tories lost for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others external. Any government challenged by Covid and then the energy crisis would struggle, and indeed most have around the world. Where is Jacinta Ardern now? Nicola Sturgeon? But they also failed to get the economy going enough the decline in the NHS is clear to see from the data.
And yet their is no sense of 1997 reborn. Starmer is dull as ditchwater and a huge hypocrite to boot. He takes the lawyers way out of any issues "No rules were broken" whether it is covid rules and a needless cuury and a pint to vast, vast sums of money to buy nice clothes for his wife. His wife, FFS.

And so the whole country is in a bad mood. The press are running things down left, right and centre. People tend to think that the country is more dangerous than ever, with more crime, when the reverse is true, but the 24/7 news culture needs feeding its diet of dismay.

Most people who use the NHS say they get great service from people who care yet also say how bad it is. There is a disconnect somewhere.

When people finally get treated by the NHS, they are generally happy enough with the serice they get. But many months in pain before they can get the process started is going to wear down the most enthusiastic Covid pan-basher.

We have unconscionable waiting lists. Millions upon millions. There needs to be some really creative thinking on funding of private treatment and tax offsets. Difficult when they have painted themselves into a £22 billion black hole. No light at the end of a tunnel is ever going to escape a black hole...

I agree with this. The evidence is pretty stark that the Tories dropped the bollock way before covid on waiting times. Add in an ever ageing and sicker patient cohort and you have trouble looming.

I have friends emigrating - in part - BECAUSE the NHS is so crap where they live. That’s how bad it is. The NHS is now a reason to LEAVE the UK

Does anyone still bother to say “envy of the world”? I don’t think so

So is their plan to pay privately overseas? Or just take out the required medical insurance?

The NHS is astonishing value for money, but sadly we still want more. Too often we want the NHS to heal us of our self-inflicted ills. Obesity treatments? Some are genuinely ill (Prader-Willi) others have no clue about health lifestyles. Extreme sports injuries (including things like skiing, but also rugby, football etc) should require extra insurance. Smoking related illness? Bottom of the list until you give up smoking.

If the NHS is such a good system, why hasn't any other European country adopted it, despite many of those countries being usually more left-wing / social-democratic than the UK is?

Richard_Tyndall

stodge said:

DavidL said:

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

Let's all just remember that it was under a Labour government, a Labour government, that the last coal powered power station in this country closed.

First, it closes at midnight tonight so strictly speaking, it hasn't closed or ceased power generation yet.

Second, the decision was taken long ago during the wasted Conservative years - could it have been stopped or reversed by the incoming Labour Government? Probably not as the decommissioning process started in 2022 and was nearly completed when the election happened.

Third, was it the Government's decision or was it EON UK's? Not sure but it's a cheap shot to lay the blame at Ed Miliband's door. One of my friends thinks there will be power cuts this winter - I'm much less convinced. It will be interesting to see what happens if we do get a prolonged spell of still cold weather but it's been years since we've had that and there's plenty of evidence of an increasingly turbulent and mobile atmosphere with plenty of energy to generate wind power.

Fourth, where I probably do agree with some on here is it's foolish to put all our eggs in the renewables basket - we should continue to use coal, nuclear and, dare I say it, investigate fracking to ensure we have other options in case the wind stops blowing or the sun stops shining or the tides stop turning (no doubt if any of that happens, Labour will get the blame).

Yep agree with almost all of this. I may think Milliband is a dangerous fucking lunatic but this particular decision does not lie at his door.

The only bit I would disagree with is about fracking. It is not suited to the UK and would not provide any meaningful additional gas supply. Even some of the companies who were previously investigating this now agree on this point.

Leon

TimS said:

Robert Jenrick looks a bit like Brandon Flowers from The Killers.

Here he is singing “are we human, or are we bastard?”

https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1840659469727916246?s=46

Actually quite a reasonably good looking candidate. Could imagine him acting a charming baddie in a crime drama.

That’s also a pretty good video. He speaks well, and clearly (and he’s right, we have to leave the ECHR)

Hmm. Its a shame he’s dodgy but he might be the best bet for the Tories

Stuartinromford

Eabhal said:

Gallowgate said:

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

@Luckyguy1983 in shambles

If Ed Miliband sticks around for 10 years and oversees massive offshore wind, battery installations and our energy independence from the Putin... 21st Century Bevan?

It will be the full works. St Paul's for the funeral. The fourth plinth at Trafalgar Square. The back of the £5 note (lol cash). We'll rename Watts to Milis, and whisper "thanks Ed" when we turn on our heat pumps in the winter.

wouldn't that mean that really small amounts of power (like I'm currently getting from my solar panels) were measured in millimilis?

Nigelb

Florida Net Favorables:

Mucarsel-Powell: +7%
Walz: +2%

Trump: -3%
Scott: -6%
Vance: -7%
Harris: -7%

Public Policy Polling / Sept 26, 2024
https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1840569385859023358

TimS

Leon said:

TimS said:

Robert Jenrick looks a bit like Brandon Flowers from The Killers.

Here he is singing “are we human, or are we bastard?”

https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1840659469727916246?s=46

Actually quite a reasonably good looking candidate. Could imagine him acting a charming baddie in a crime drama.

That’s also a pretty good video. He speaks well, and clearly (and he’s right, we have to leave the ECHR)

Hmm. Its a shame he’s dodgy but he might be the best bet for the Tories

He’s articulate, and I accept I’m by no means the target demographic here, but - decent looks notwithstanding - he does look every bit the archetypal Tory Bastard. There’s something in the eyes: a cold ruthlessness. A barely concealed zeal. I doubt that aesthetic is going to appeal to many. Ask Ted Cruz. Or Dominic Cummings.

MattW

turbotubbs said:

williamglenn said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Perhaps this is Labour’s plan. To so comprehensively ruin the country - even more than it is ruined now - we will beg to go back into the EU

But I doubt they’d have us as we’d be a net drain on their resources and everyone in Britain would immediately flee to Poland and Romania for superior lifestyles

We don't meet the debt/deficit requirements in any case, though I guess an exception could be made under a "former member" framework.

I genuinely think we’d get vetoed. France just because. Malta for the lolz. Spain because Gibraltar and they don’t want our obese pensioners back

It just takes one country out of 27

The negotiations would take decades and at the end it might be No, no UKG would spend all that time and capital on such a risk. Not gonna happen

SM/CU - yes possibly

France would put it to a referendum and the temptation for them to say Non unless we also join the Euro would be too great.

What right would we have to reject the Euro if we were going back in? Its surely fully committed if we want to get back in.

There are a lot of countries which are required to adopt the Euro, and they are all still dragging their feet and have not adopted it up to 20 years later.

TimS

Stuartinromford said:

Eabhal said:

Gallowgate said:

eek said:

Ratcliffe coal power station has closed down.

The UK is now the first country to remove coal power from it's electricity mix - beating France..

@Luckyguy1983 in shambles

If Ed Miliband sticks around for 10 years and oversees massive offshore wind, battery installations and our energy independence from the Putin... 21st Century Bevan?

It will be the full works. St Paul's for the funeral. The fourth plinth at Trafalgar Square. The back of the £5 note (lol cash). We'll rename Watts to Milis, and whisper "thanks Ed" when we turn on our heat pumps in the winter.

wouldn't that mean that really small amounts of power (like I'm currently getting from my solar panels) were measured in millimilis?

There would be different nomenclature for different mili-bandings.

MaxPB

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Leon said:

This is general healthcare in Bangkok, NOT private

This is where I go if I don’t want the luxury of private. This is a fair review on Tripadvisor


“I was in Bangkok for two days previously in Singapore for a long weekend. I'm from USA and live in a not sunny area. I haven't traveled to a sunny destination for several years so I forgot that I have a reaction to the sun sometimes. I woke up with a severely itchy rash on my feet and knew that I needed to go in for a steroid injection. I called the number listed for help from my travel insurance from World Nomads. They suggested Bangkok Christian hospital. I and was immediately given an appointment with a dermatologist. I was taken care of in less than 1 hour. Given the injection I needed plus some prescriptions for take along. The staff were courteous and efficient. And it only cost me the equivalent of $45 US. I am a nurse practitioner so I feel that I can give an insider's view of medical care. I worked in acute care settings for many years. I was quite pleased with my experience.”

That’s my experience of the same hospital. Is that better or worse then the average NHS experience?

I think thats great. However what is the average Thai salary? How does $45 stack up compared to that?

The average median salary in Thailand is $2500 a month

However I’m not sure locals would pay that $45 like an expat. Many would have insurance etc

Just to finesse my own point

Turns out 99.5% of Thais have universal health insurance. They get faster and better treatment than we get from the NHS - this is probably why their life expectancy (despite being a middle income country) is about to overtake life expectancy in the UK. Yet they only spend 6% of GDP on health

They also have loads of sunshine and delicious papaya salads, and way less crime

People who don’t travel much don’t realise how Britain is, relatively speaking, turning into a mismanaged toilet, with the 2nd most miserable population on earth

What is the obesity rate? I'd suspect that currently Thais tend to be a lot less prone to being overweight, eat more fish and vegetables/fruit etc. That may change with time.

Like everyone, Thais are getting noticeably fatter. Especially middle class kids

So yes they may be storing up trouble

On the flip side, childhood obesity rates seem to be falling here (though from a depressingly high base).

I think developed societies end up paying a luxury tax on healthcare because companies are far too good at advertising and making lower middle class and working class people believe that unhealthy lifestyles are aspirational.

MarqueeMark

Fishing said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Would folks be prepared to reverse Brexit if it became clear that it offered a path to economic renewal?

There would need to be solid evidence that it wouldn't do the opposite as the EU regulates our dynamic industries like finance and tech out of existence, if the bar was met I wouldn't be wholly against it.

Is that a yes or a no?

The reason I ask is that there is a lot of ideology out there today that gets in the way of progress. Lots of entrenched positions and pride. Some people would rather see the ship go down than change their position.

As I said if the evidence bar was met I'd be interested to see what rejoining might bring to the nation. I'm extremely sceptical about it though, the EU has managed in short order to regulate AI development out of the bloc due to simplistic fear mongering by people who don't actually understand the industry.

I guess that's a maybe to a yes with a very high bar.

Losing one small industry, however much of the flavour of the month, is utterly trivial compared with losing control of our monetary and exchange rate (and increasingly fiscal) policies if we rejoined and had to join the euro. The ERM catastrophe in the early 90s was bad enough but we were forced out in time to avoid irretrievable disaster. The single currency would be far more difficult to escape from.

It would be a very difficult sell to the public. If the Referendum had been a vote on getting out/going in to the EU balls-deep with the Euro and all the other bits of federalism, it would have been a much wider margin than 52:48.

And if we had voted to remain in the EU, the forces for a full integration into The Project would have been immense.

From the Blob...

Nigelb

Pollsters: Don’t be so sure Trump will outperform our surveys

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4904402-trump-polls-accuracy-questioned/
..Polls now show Vice President Harris leading Trump by about 4 points, according to the average from The Hill/Decision Desk HQ. But the race in the roughly half dozen battleground states is even closer, and a polling error like the ones in the past could mean Trump is in a stronger position to prevail than the data says.
But polling analysts say it’s not that simple.
“We don’t always see the misses in the same direction,” said Chris Jackson, the senior vice president of public affairs for Ipsos. “I can tell you that the polling industry has done substantial changes to how we do our surveys to try to account for what we think was driving those errors in 2020. So while there undoubtedly will be errors in the future, they’re probably going to be driven by different things and go in different directions.”
Pollsters have had a rough couple of presidential cycles in the Trump era, and it’s led to widespread skepticism of just how accurate their measurements are, even as news story after news story details the latest polling findings.
In both 2016 and 2020, Trump was the underdog, first to Hillary Clinton and then to Joe Biden. In both cases, he outperformed most of his polls.
The first time, it was enough to win the Electoral College. The second time, Biden won, but it was a very tight race in a number of battleground states.
Pollsters acknowledge Trump’s rise has posed a new challenge for the industry trying to accurately track voters’ preferences, but they say methodologies have adjusted.
Jackson said the polling industry in 2020 and before looked to “reliable benchmarks” for sampling and weighting surveys, usually based on census data, to ensure pollsters had a representative sample. But pollsters now realize that trends were happening that demographics were not accounting for.
This led to a significant adoption of other factors such as party registration and past voting history for added political criteria for weighing results.
“There’s a bunch of different ways of doing it that are currently being used in the field, but that has been a relatively widespread shift in the last four years,” Jackson said. ..

MattW

TimS said:

Robert Jenrick looks a bit like Brandon Flowers from The Killers.

Here he is singing “are we human, or are we bastard?”

https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1840659469727916246?s=46

Actually quite a reasonably good looking candidate. Could imagine him acting a charming baddie in a crime drama.

That's quite the video nasty.

Has anyone factchecked his claims in it?