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A harbinger or an outlier? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 976

    Finland did not win a single medal at this olympics -

    Winter Olympics is probably more their thing
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,472

    According to Twitter

    Ukraine has just bombed cooling systems at the Zaporozhye Nuclear Power Plant — Europe’s largest plant.

    Anything official?

    There's pictures of fire under one of the cooling towers, with claims that Russians set fire to car tyres underneath it. I *doubt* it was a bomb, given the towers are still standing, but could be wrong.

    Edit: https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1822705146091966613 for the piccie.
    Oh good sounds pretty dangerous thing to fuck about with.
    Cooling towers? Not so much. Some have thousands of wooden slats in to increase the water's surface area, but that very much depends on the type.

    Not everything in a nuclear power plant involves radioactivity. I also believe (but might be wrong) that the Zap plant is currently shut down.
    It's in a cold shutdown, but still needs an electricity supply to keep the nuclear material cold.

    A fire is a dangerous thing. Easy to lose control of it once it has started.

    This only makes sense to me as the Russians causing as much damage as possible before withdrawing, which makes me hopeful that the Ukrainian attack into Kursk has down more damage to Russia than we can see.

    But the Russians sometimes do things that don't make sense, so it might be just random destruction and petty revenge.
    Never discount drunkenness.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    kinabalu said:

    Omnium said:

    I know there's been some criticism, but I think these Olympic games have been wonderful. Vive la France!

    Yes. And for some reason I've just had a real burst of sadness about leaving the European Union. Not anger, that's gone now, just sadness.
    When we belonged to the EU we owned Paris, Berlin, Madrid, Lisbon, Prague and Rome. We owned the Rhone, the Rhine, the Danube, the Pyrenees and the Alps. We could turn up to visit or live there and no one could stop us and chuck us out after 90 days. But we exchanged all that for some magic beans in a bag marked " sovereignty".
    OTOH, we now have 'democracy'. We can elect the people who make our laws. That's pretty good. You never get politicians saying "can't do that, Europe sez" any more.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815


  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    edited August 11
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison ie 23 months then out on license, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up, driving his children around, using his phone.

    Just another day on our roads.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,502
    We need a dictator, who will simply impose all this, and fuck the opposition. I am willing if called upon, etc
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,472

    According to Twitter

    Ukraine has just bombed cooling systems at the Zaporozhye Nuclear Power Plant — Europe’s largest plant.

    Anything official?

    Which twitter accounts do you read to draw that conclusion ?
    I don't know.
    But it seems you can begin almost any old incredulous bollocks with.
    According to Twitter.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    edited August 11
    Nunu5 said:

    Finland did not win a single medal at this olympics -

    Winter Olympics is probably more their thing
    Finland came 3rd in the 1920 Summer Olympics. GB were 4th.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,945
    edited August 11
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815


    "Careless". On phone and coked up FFS. I think that's close to what I would want a life driving ban for.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,472
    Nunu5 said:

    Finland did not win a single medal at this olympics -

    Winter Olympics is probably more their thing
    They are the nation of Lasse Viren and the javelin.
    Yet I can't recall a single athlete in a final.
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 891
    ***BETTING POST***

    With KJT not winning the heptathlon, feel like Keely is nailed on to win SPOTY now, with a 50% return on BF for 4 months looking like a pretty decent return.

    The only thing I can see derailing this would be something vanishingly unlikely like a Brit winning the US Open (ofc that happened in 2021 :smiley: ) but I think this is pretty much free money.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,089

    According to Twitter

    Ukraine has just bombed cooling systems at the Zaporozhye Nuclear Power Plant — Europe’s largest plant.

    Anything official?

    There's pictures of fire under one of the cooling towers, with claims that Russians set fire to car tyres underneath it. I *doubt* it was a bomb, given the towers are still standing, but could be wrong.

    Edit: https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1822705146091966613 for the piccie.
    There’s nothing at the bottom of such cooling towers to burn.

    So if there is a fire there, someone provided a large amount of flammable material.

    This could not have been dropped from an airplane or fired from artillery.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    This argument appears to be:
    Cookie: The beautification of Britain is a good idea, and the Tories ought to use it as part of an offer to widen their appeal.
    MexicanPete: But I hate the Tories.

    I'm not arguing about whether or not the Tories are good. I'm arguing that this is something good they could usefully and distinctively be in favour of.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Leon said:

    We need a dictator, who will simply impose all this, and fuck the opposition. I am willing if called upon, etc

    We'd expect you to be in the country though most of the time.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,785
    Nunu5 said:

    Finland did not win a single medal at this olympics -

    Winter Olympics is probably more their thing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasse_Virén

    is probably the most famous Finnish Olympian.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,472

    Leon said:

    We need a dictator, who will simply impose all this, and fuck the opposition. I am willing if called upon, etc

    We'd expect you to be in the country though most of the time.
    If he was dictator, probably handy if he wasn't.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    Yes, though I imagine the £1,048,250 average house price, 75% of residents with a good education and 82% of residents middle class ABC1 with an average local household income of £68,950 probably helps Richmond upon Thames stay clean and presentable too
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Richmond Park
    And yet, the French manage to make even their poor towns look almost as good, at least in the centre, as the very richest parts of Britain

    Something has gone badly wrong with our civic realm, and we CAN fix it. Enough of this pathetic defeatism

    Start with shop fronts and signage. Abolish the hideous KEBAB SHOP and CHICKEN SHACK neon and plastic

    If you make a town centre pretty and safe, then people will come back, and do more shopping, and dining, and drinking, and that means new places will open, creating a virtuous cycle. We do the opposite. We let our town centres get uglier and scruffier then we wonder why our high streets are deserted
    Some of them, go to a few of the ex industrial towns that voted for Le Pen or Melenchon or the Paris suburbs and you will find it rather less pretty.

    Though I agree we need to support our high streets and shops with tax breaks and shopping and free parking and ensure they aren't mainly takeaways, nail bars, estate agents and hairdressers and coffee shops.

    The French in their small towns and provincial cities also still prefer to shop in person for clothes, browse at bookstops and shop for food at butchers, fish and vegetable markets and delicatessens rather than order most of it on Amazon and Ocado and Asda online which helps their high streets stay alive
    But even their left behind towns are enviable

    I've just been to a French town that voted first for Le Pen, and then, second Zemmour and the extreme right! Macron was nowhere

    It was Beziers, and the centre is, yes, beautiful, with nice street furniture and lovely cobbled squares. In Britain it would be one of our loveliest towns

    https://www.francebleu.fr/occitanie/herault-34/beziers-34032/elections
    It's because they have mayors. Every town. Even large villages.

    My mate got into trouble with his mayor because at his holiday home he did not keep the dandelions down in the roadside verge next to the property.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,945
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    This argument appears to be:
    Cookie: The beautification of Britain is a good idea, and the Tories ought to use it as part of an offer to widen their appeal.
    MexicanPete: But I hate the Tories.

    I'm not arguing about whether or not the Tories are good. I'm arguing that this is something good they could usefully and distinctively be in favour of.
    I think, like a lot of things, credibility will be issue for quite some while. Immigration? 1.2 million in a year. Public realm? Slashed council budgets. The environment? Attacked net zero. Tax? Record tax burden. NHS? Massively increased waiting lists. Small boats? Well.

    They need to find something where their record isn't dire, or a new issue which Labour mess up the response to. The riots could have been one, but Starmer was good on law and order.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,767

    Nunu5 said:

    Finland did not win a single medal at this olympics -

    Winter Olympics is probably more their thing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasse_Virén

    is probably the most famous Finnish Olympian.
    Paavo Nurmi and Hannes Kolehmainen justly more honoured in their country

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815


    "Careless". On phone and coked up FFS. I think that's close to what I would want a life driving ban for.
    I think we will get a strategy with this Govt, TBH.

    They need to replicate Blair's approach, which was something he did get right.

    In 2001 (I think) they said "we will halve road deaths in 10 years", and achieved it in 9. Since then they have started going back up.

    We need Mr Starmer to say "road deaths down to under 1000 in 2 terms", which is essentially achievable from measures that we already know what they are. Would need a header to list them though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,502
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    This argument appears to be:
    Cookie: The beautification of Britain is a good idea, and the Tories ought to use it as part of an offer to widen their appeal.
    MexicanPete: But I hate the Tories.

    I'm not arguing about whether or not the Tories are good. I'm arguing that this is something good they could usefully and distinctively be in favour of.
    Yes, of course you're right, The argument from the likes of @Mexicanpete is simply tedious

    Virtually everyone on this forum admits the Tories 2010-2024 were FUCKING GARBAGE

    The question now is how the Tories transform themselves into something palatable and even enticing, so they can win in 2028. Befause this is eminently do-able. The electorate is volatile and Labour only got 20% of the available vote, it is utterly pathetic. They can be swept away easily, with a good leader with good ideas, and Starmer is a soulless wanker

    One of those ideas might be Beautify Britain. But to do that the Tories need to show that they have cut ties with all the donors that persuaded them to foul our rivers and build hideous redbrick estates all over the place. Not easy, But, has to be done
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,502

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    Yes, though I imagine the £1,048,250 average house price, 75% of residents with a good education and 82% of residents middle class ABC1 with an average local household income of £68,950 probably helps Richmond upon Thames stay clean and presentable too
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Richmond Park
    And yet, the French manage to make even their poor towns look almost as good, at least in the centre, as the very richest parts of Britain

    Something has gone badly wrong with our civic realm, and we CAN fix it. Enough of this pathetic defeatism

    Start with shop fronts and signage. Abolish the hideous KEBAB SHOP and CHICKEN SHACK neon and plastic

    If you make a town centre pretty and safe, then people will come back, and do more shopping, and dining, and drinking, and that means new places will open, creating a virtuous cycle. We do the opposite. We let our town centres get uglier and scruffier then we wonder why our high streets are deserted
    Some of them, go to a few of the ex industrial towns that voted for Le Pen or Melenchon or the Paris suburbs and you will find it rather less pretty.

    Though I agree we need to support our high streets and shops with tax breaks and shopping and free parking and ensure they aren't mainly takeaways, nail bars, estate agents and hairdressers and coffee shops.

    The French in their small towns and provincial cities also still prefer to shop in person for clothes, browse at bookstops and shop for food at butchers, fish and vegetable markets and delicatessens rather than order most of it on Amazon and Ocado and Asda online which helps their high streets stay alive
    But even their left behind towns are enviable

    I've just been to a French town that voted first for Le Pen, and then, second Zemmour and the extreme right! Macron was nowhere

    It was Beziers, and the centre is, yes, beautiful, with nice street furniture and lovely cobbled squares. In Britain it would be one of our loveliest towns

    https://www.francebleu.fr/occitanie/herault-34/beziers-34032/elections
    It's because they have mayors. Every town. Even large villages.

    My mate got into trouble with his mayor because at his holiday home he did not keep the dandelions down in the roadside verge next to the property.
    Please please please let us have this in Britain
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Maybe I am getting old. I don't recognise these acts performing. I'm pretty confident I will recognise Snoop and Billie though
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Sorry France, it's been a brilliant games but this closing ceremony is très ennuyeux.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,945
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815


    "Careless". On phone and coked up FFS. I think that's close to what I would want a life driving ban for.
    I think we will get a strategy with this Govt, TBH.

    They need to replicate Blair's approach, which was something he did get right.

    In 2001 (I think) they said "we will halve road deaths in 10 years", and achieved it in 9. Since then they have started going back up.

    We need Mr Starmer to say "road deaths down to under 1000 in 2 terms", which is essentially achievable from measures that we already know what they are. Would need a header to list them though.
    Hostage to fortune. As cycling to rates increase, so will cyclist deaths even if per mile cycling becomes safer. This is already being used by some to oppose new cycling infrastructure, bizarrely. "Cycling is dangerous".

    The clever way to frame it would be by aiming to reduce insurance premiums for motorists rather than road deaths, IMO. And never mention cycling, just pedestrians who remain a larger group of KSIs and people can relate to more. Stuff that is good for pedestrians is often good for cyclists too.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890

    ***BETTING POST***

    With KJT not winning the heptathlon, feel like Keely is nailed on to win SPOTY now, with a 50% return on BF for 4 months looking like a pretty decent return.

    The only thing I can see derailing this would be something vanishingly unlikely like a Brit winning the US Open (ofc that happened in 2021 :smiley: ) but I think this is pretty much free money.

    Any risk from Paralympians?
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 726
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    Yes, though I imagine the £1,048,250 average house price, 75% of residents with a good education and 82% of residents middle class ABC1 with an average local household income of £68,950 probably helps Richmond upon Thames stay clean and presentable too
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Richmond Park
    And yet, the French manage to make even their poor towns look almost as good, at least in the centre, as the very richest parts of Britain

    Something has gone badly wrong with our civic realm, and we CAN fix it. Enough of this pathetic defeatism

    Start with shop fronts and signage. Abolish the hideous KEBAB SHOP and CHICKEN SHACK neon and plastic

    If you make a town centre pretty and safe, then people will come back, and do more shopping, and dining, and drinking, and that means new places will open, creating a virtuous cycle. We do the opposite. We let our town centres get uglier and scruffier then we wonder why our high streets are deserted
    Some of them, go to a few of the ex industrial towns that voted for Le Pen or Melenchon or the Paris suburbs and you will find it rather less pretty.

    Though I agree we need to support our high streets and shops with tax breaks and shopping and free parking and ensure they aren't mainly takeaways, nail bars, estate agents and hairdressers and coffee shops.

    The French in their small towns and provincial cities also still prefer to shop in person for clothes, browse at bookstops and shop for food at butchers, fish and vegetable markets and delicatessens rather than order most of it on Amazon and Ocado and Asda online which helps their high streets stay alive
    But even their left behind towns are enviable

    I've just been to a French town that voted first for Le Pen, and then, second Zemmour and the extreme right! Macron was nowhere

    It was Beziers, and the centre is, yes, beautiful, with nice street furniture and lovely cobbled squares. In Britain it would be one of our loveliest towns

    https://www.francebleu.fr/occitanie/herault-34/beziers-34032/elections
    It's because they have mayors. Every town. Even large villages.

    My mate got into trouble with his mayor because at his holiday home he did not keep the dandelions down in the roadside verge next to the property.
    Please please please let us have this in Britain
    Business rates have to be part of it too. I remember talking to the owner of a charmingly old fashioned menswear shop in a small town in Belgium. Beyond his rent he didn't pay any council taxes or business rates. It's why he could carry on running his little local shop that only opened three days a week. I bought a suit with flared trousers from him and this was about 2017.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    edited August 11
    On the topic of pylons, some folk hold that they are an improvement (and of course the original CEGB designs were approved by the ?CPRE in, I think, the 1930s).

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/aug/09/pretty-pylons-can-add-character-to-england-industrial-landscape
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15293918
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,238
    edited August 11
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Omnium said:

    I know there's been some criticism, but I think these Olympic games have been wonderful. Vive la France!

    Yes. And for some reason I've just had a real burst of sadness about leaving the European Union. Not anger, that's gone now, just sadness.
    When we belonged to the EU we owned Paris, Berlin, Madrid, Lisbon, Prague and Rome. We owned the Rhone, the Rhine, the Danube, the Pyrenees and the Alps. We could turn up to visit or live there and no one could stop us and chuck us out after 90 days. But we exchanged all that for some magic beans in a bag marked " sovereignty".
    OTOH, we now have 'democracy'. We can elect the people who make our laws. That's pretty good. You never get politicians saying "can't do that, Europe sez" any more.
    The problem, as pointed out just now, people chose to go to places that they no longer can. Stopping people doing collectively what they want, and which they were previously able to do, is a funny kind of 'democracy'.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,901
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison ie 23 months then out on license, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up, driving his children around, using his phone.

    Just another day on our roads.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815
    I don't understand why something like that isn't a lifetime ban from driving for starters.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,433

    On subsidizing sports through a lottery: If it provides places for your citizens to exercise, or even encourages them to do so, it might be a good investment in better health, given the importance of exercise to health. (I am serious when I urge Nick Palmer to bring in cross country skiing to his localities with, if necessary, artificial snow. Swimming is about as good as XC skiing, so building facilities for thar makes sense, too.)

    Much as I love the Olympics, I must sadly report that the Olympics has been shown, in several studies, to encourage more people to watch sports, but shows limited effect on encouraging the population as a whole to do more exercise (although debate still continues). The problem seems to be that the things that are in the Olympics -- discus, 400m hurdles, pole vault, gymnastics, sport climbing, kite sailing, 3-day eventing, boxing etc. -- are not mass participation activities. The things real people do for exercise are quite different: pilates, Zumba, yoga etc. People do run in large numbers, but not generally in races.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,447
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    This argument appears to be:
    Cookie: The beautification of Britain is a good idea, and the Tories ought to use it as part of an offer to widen their appeal.
    MexicanPete: But I hate the Tories.

    I'm not arguing about whether or not the Tories are good. I'm arguing that this is something good they could usefully and distinctively be in favour of.
    Alternatively, they could get behind the idea, and it would be good for them do to so and good for the country if they enacted it. The catch is that, to make it happen, they would have to go against some of their currently cherished beliefs. For starters, allowing local society to make meaningful decisions and the taxpayer spending the money to make this happen.

    A Conservative Party that thought in terms of leaving a positive legacy for our grandchildren would be an excellent thing. Unfortunately, the "break it up for parts to flog off" tendency has been a bit too ascendant for a bit too long.

    Suspect it's part of a wider malaise. Optimistic politics tends to be framed about "what are the good things in life and how can they be opened up to more people?" Things like pleasant neighbourhoods. At the moment, there's a bit too much emphasis on how difficult that is, which leads to grim zero-sum "if they are doing well, it's at my expense" thinking, which has... consequences for society, and not pretty ones.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,785
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    I thought I'd repeatedly read that inner cities are on the up with lots of new apartments being built and we should empty all the towns and move to the cities or something.

    Now I read the inner cities are derelict.

    I suspect the truth is somewhere between the extremes.
    The last Government detested the notion of 15 minute cities. 15 minute cities were "too woke". That's how malign and mad they were.
    There's nothing stopping people living in '15 minute cities' if they want to.

    Its trying to oppose '15 minute cities' on places where it cannot work where the problem is.
    Where wouldn't it work?

    80% of people in the UK live in urban areas, and even people who live in small rural villages take a great deal of pride in their local pub, shop, doctor, dentist. 15 minutes is nearly a mile by foot, perhaps 3 miles by bike. That's a big area.

    You get a few people living in seriously remote spots in the Highlands, Hebrides and so on. But no one is suggesting trying to help those folks out (sadly).
    For starters you would need to live within a 15 minute walk of a big supermarket.

    Preferably more than one - people like a choice.

    Preferably less than 15 minutes as who wants to carry their supermarket shopping for that long, especially in the dark or in bad weather.

    And no a 'city' or 'local' sized store will not work, it has to be full sized, and nor will some corner shop.
    Why would you need a big supermarket inside your 15 minute city when you can just drive to one? What else do you want - an airport?!

    I think you've fallen for this conspiracy theory that it's about trapping people in zones. It's just about providing local services, locally. Oddly enough, "would you like to be able to pop round to the dentist" has stunning levels of support.
    If you have to drive out to get what you need its not a 15 minute city is it.

    Yes, it is good if places we need and want to go to are closer.

    But then it becomes a matter of supply and demand and how much it costs.

    People might want a dentist around the corner but its not going to happen because its not economically worthwhile to have that many dentists.

    This is what is within a 15 minute walk of my suburban house:

    2 pubs (crap ones)
    1 full sized supermarket (just)
    A few restaurants (rarely visited)
    Nice walking area

    This is what is within a 15 minute drive of my house:

    Workplace
    3 full sized supermarkets
    Smaller supermarkets (German)
    Endless shops
    Multiple restaurants (often visited)
    Lots of pubs (good ones)
    Health club
    Sports clubs I go to
    Doctor
    Dentist
    Relatives
    Friends
    Lots of nice walking areas
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
  • "Season Of The Witch" by Julie Driscoll, Brian Auger and The Trinity is fucking superb, and I love the video

    https://youtu.be/dCKZPEleI-U

    I never heard of her before I looked.up the AbFab theme song
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    Maybe I am getting old. I don't recognise these acts performing. I'm pretty confident I will recognise Snoop and Billie though

    I enjoyed Phoenix, though I'd never heard of them before.
    I expect the endorsement of a balding 49yo Mancunian office drone and his wife is exactly what they were hoping for out of this gig.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,089

    On subsidizing sports through a lottery: If it provides places for your citizens to exercise, or even encourages them to do so, it might be a good investment in better health, given the importance of exercise to health. (I am serious when I urge Nick Palmer to bring in cross country skiing to his localities with, if necessary, artificial snow. Swimming is about as good as XC skiing, so building facilities for thar makes sense, too.)

    Much as I love the Olympics, I must sadly report that the Olympics has been shown, in several studies, to encourage more people to watch sports, but shows limited effect on encouraging the population as a whole to do more exercise (although debate still continues). The problem seems to be that the things that are in the Olympics -- discus, 400m hurdles, pole vault, gymnastics, sport climbing, kite sailing, 3-day eventing, boxing etc. -- are not mass participation activities. The things real people do for exercise are quite different: pilates, Zumba, yoga etc. People do run in large numbers, but not generally in races.
    At my rowing club, which is prepared to teach adults with no experience whatsoever, enquires have gone through the roof.

    Right after U.K. started winning medals.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Why are we ditching rugby? Olympic rugby 7s is surely the pinnacle of the sport? Also my favourite event.
    Football should take a leaf and Olympic football should be a five-a-side tournament.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    I thought I'd repeatedly read that inner cities are on the up with lots of new apartments being built and we should empty all the towns and move to the cities or something.

    Now I read the inner cities are derelict.

    I suspect the truth is somewhere between the extremes.
    The last Government detested the notion of 15 minute cities. 15 minute cities were "too woke". That's how malign and mad they were.
    There's nothing stopping people living in '15 minute cities' if they want to.

    Its trying to oppose '15 minute cities' on places where it cannot work where the problem is.
    Where wouldn't it work?

    80% of people in the UK live in urban areas, and even people who live in small rural villages take a great deal of pride in their local pub, shop, doctor, dentist. 15 minutes is nearly a mile by foot, perhaps 3 miles by bike. That's a big area.

    You get a few people living in seriously remote spots in the Highlands, Hebrides and so on. But no one is suggesting trying to help those folks out (sadly).
    For starters you would need to live within a 15 minute walk of a big supermarket.

    Preferably more than one - people like a choice.

    Preferably less than 15 minutes as who wants to carry their supermarket shopping for that long, especially in the dark or in bad weather.

    And no a 'city' or 'local' sized store will not work, it has to be full sized, and nor will some corner shop.
    Why would you need a big supermarket inside your 15 minute city when you can just drive to one? What else do you want - an airport?!

    I think you've fallen for this conspiracy theory that it's about trapping people in zones. It's just about providing local services, locally. Oddly enough, "would you like to be able to pop round to the dentist" has stunning levels of support.
    If you have to drive out to get what you need its not a 15 minute city is it.

    Yes, it is good if places we need and want to go to are closer.

    But then it becomes a matter of supply and demand and how much it costs.

    People might want a dentist around the corner but its not going to happen because its not economically worthwhile to have that many dentists.

    This is what is within a 15 minute walk of my suburban house:

    2 pubs (crap ones)
    1 full sized supermarket (just)
    A few restaurants (rarely visited)
    Nice walking area

    This is what is within a 15 minute drive of my house:

    Workplace
    3 full sized supermarkets
    Smaller supermarkets (German)
    Endless shops
    Multiple restaurants (often visited)
    Lots of pubs (good ones)
    Health club
    Sports clubs I go to
    Doctor
    Dentist
    Relatives
    Friends
    Lots of nice walking areas
    This is what is within a 15 minute walk of our house:

    Er...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,945

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    I thought I'd repeatedly read that inner cities are on the up with lots of new apartments being built and we should empty all the towns and move to the cities or something.

    Now I read the inner cities are derelict.

    I suspect the truth is somewhere between the extremes.
    The last Government detested the notion of 15 minute cities. 15 minute cities were "too woke". That's how malign and mad they were.
    There's nothing stopping people living in '15 minute cities' if they want to.

    Its trying to oppose '15 minute cities' on places where it cannot work where the problem is.
    Where wouldn't it work?

    80% of people in the UK live in urban areas, and even people who live in small rural villages take a great deal of pride in their local pub, shop, doctor, dentist. 15 minutes is nearly a mile by foot, perhaps 3 miles by bike. That's a big area.

    You get a few people living in seriously remote spots in the Highlands, Hebrides and so on. But no one is suggesting trying to help those folks out (sadly).
    For starters you would need to live within a 15 minute walk of a big supermarket.

    Preferably more than one - people like a choice.

    Preferably less than 15 minutes as who wants to carry their supermarket shopping for that long, especially in the dark or in bad weather.

    And no a 'city' or 'local' sized store will not work, it has to be full sized, and nor will some corner shop.
    Why would you need a big supermarket inside your 15 minute city when you can just drive to one? What else do you want - an airport?!

    I think you've fallen for this conspiracy theory that it's about trapping people in zones. It's just about providing local services, locally. Oddly enough, "would you like to be able to pop round to the dentist" has stunning levels of support.
    If you have to drive out to get what you need its not a 15 minute city is it.

    Yes, it is good if places we need and want to go to are closer.

    But then it becomes a matter of supply and demand and how much it costs.

    People might want a dentist around the corner but its not going to happen because its not economically worthwhile to have that many dentists.

    This is what is within a 15 minute walk of my suburban house:

    2 pubs (crap ones)
    1 full sized supermarket (just)
    A few restaurants (rarely visited)
    Nice walking area

    This is what is within a 15 minute drive of my house:

    Workplace
    3 full sized supermarkets
    Smaller supermarkets (German)
    Endless shops
    Multiple restaurants (often visited)
    Lots of pubs (good ones)
    Health club
    Sports clubs I go to
    Doctor
    Dentist
    Relatives
    Friends
    Lots of nice walking areas
    It's not just walking - it's also cycling (approx 3 miles), public transport (for me about 1.5 miles). Try now?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    This argument appears to be:
    Cookie: The beautification of Britain is a good idea, and the Tories ought to use it as part of an offer to widen their appeal.
    MexicanPete: But I hate the Tories.

    I'm not arguing about whether or not the Tories are good. I'm arguing that this is something good they could usefully and distinctively be in favour of.
    Alternatively, they could get behind the idea, and it would be good for them do to so and good for the country if they enacted it. The catch is that, to make it happen, they would have to go against some of their currently cherished beliefs. For starters, allowing local society to make meaningful decisions and the taxpayer spending the money to make this happen.

    A Conservative Party that thought in terms of leaving a positive legacy for our grandchildren would be an excellent thing. Unfortunately, the "break it up for parts to flog off" tendency has been a bit too ascendant for a bit too long.

    Suspect it's part of a wider malaise. Optimistic politics tends to be framed about "what are the good things in life and how can they be opened up to more people?" Things like pleasant neighbourhoods. At the moment, there's a bit too much emphasis on how difficult that is, which leads to grim zero-sum "if they are doing well, it's at my expense" thinking, which has... consequences for society, and not pretty ones.
    Well yes. And changing that is how the Tories get back in contention.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,433

    On subsidizing sports through a lottery: If it provides places for your citizens to exercise, or even encourages them to do so, it might be a good investment in better health, given the importance of exercise to health. (I am serious when I urge Nick Palmer to bring in cross country skiing to his localities with, if necessary, artificial snow. Swimming is about as good as XC skiing, so building facilities for thar makes sense, too.)

    Much as I love the Olympics, I must sadly report that the Olympics has been shown, in several studies, to encourage more people to watch sports, but shows limited effect on encouraging the population as a whole to do more exercise (although debate still continues). The problem seems to be that the things that are in the Olympics -- discus, 400m hurdles, pole vault, gymnastics, sport climbing, kite sailing, 3-day eventing, boxing etc. -- are not mass participation activities. The things real people do for exercise are quite different: pilates, Zumba, yoga etc. People do run in large numbers, but not generally in races.
    At my rowing club, which is prepared to teach adults with no experience whatsoever, enquires have gone through the roof.

    Right after U.K. started winning medals.
    Weed et al. (2015) is a big review on the topic: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/16184742.2014.998695

    Implications: If the primary justification for hosting an Olympic Games is the potential impact on sport participation, the Games are a bad investment. However, the Games can have specific impacts on sport participation frequency and re-engagement, and if these are desirable for host societies, are properly leveraged by hosts, and are one among a number of reasons for hosting the Games, then the Games may be a justifiable investment in sport participation terms.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,785
    Carnyx said:

    On the topic of pylons, some folk hold that they are an improvement (and of course the original CEGB designs were approved by the ?CPRE in, I think, the 1930s).

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/aug/09/pretty-pylons-can-add-character-to-england-industrial-landscape
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15293918

    There are few things as fake as 'twee' villages.

    Pylons are an example of mankind triumphing over the bleakness of nature as much as dry stone walls in the Yorkshire Dales are.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,433
    There's a debate around whether there is a trickle-down effect from success in elite sport to mass participation, e.g. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17461391.2018.1489000 on handball in Denmark concludes probably not.

    Likewise, this study on the 2010 Vancouver Winter Olympics found little effect: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cars.12087 . However, this study found the 1964 Tokyo Olympics did have positive effects: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1441352317300372
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,502

    Carnyx said:

    On the topic of pylons, some folk hold that they are an improvement (and of course the original CEGB designs were approved by the ?CPRE in, I think, the 1930s).

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/aug/09/pretty-pylons-can-add-character-to-england-industrial-landscape
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15293918

    There are few things as fake as 'twee' villages.

    Pylons are an example of mankind triumphing over the bleakness of nature as much as dry stone walls in the Yorkshire Dales are.
    You could say the same about multi-storey car parks, you stupid git
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Why are we ditching rugby? Olympic rugby 7s is surely the pinnacle of the sport? Also my favourite event.
    Football should take a leaf and Olympic football should be a five-a-side tournament.
    We've got Flag Football (wtf?) next time.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,682
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815


    "Careless". On phone and coked up FFS. I think that's close to what I would want a life driving ban for.
    I think we will get a strategy with this Govt, TBH.

    They need to replicate Blair's approach, which was something he did get right.

    In 2001 (I think) they said "we will halve road deaths in 10 years", and achieved it in 9. Since then they have started going back up.

    We need Mr Starmer to say "road deaths down to under 1000 in 2 terms", which is essentially achievable from measures that we already know what they are. Would need a header to list them though.
    Looking at the annual figures it’s interesting that broadly there is a trend to fewer deaths since the Second World War. Whatever Blair did was getting back on the trend line. We seem to have reached another plateau right now. Not sure what the answer is, although mandated spikes on steering wheels would almost certainly work.
    One other thing - is there an inverse relationship between road deaths and congestion? More cars, slower traffic, fewer deaths? Clearly better safety features help those in the cars, but not those outside.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,433

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Why are we ditching rugby? Olympic rugby 7s is surely the pinnacle of the sport? Also my favourite event.
    Football should take a leaf and Olympic football should be a five-a-side tournament.
    We've got Flag Football (wtf?) next time.
    Flag football is the touch rugby of American football.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    edited August 11
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Omnium said:

    I know there's been some criticism, but I think these Olympic games have been wonderful. Vive la France!

    Yes. And for some reason I've just had a real burst of sadness about leaving the European Union. Not anger, that's gone now, just sadness.
    When we belonged to the EU we owned Paris, Berlin, Madrid, Lisbon, Prague and Rome. We owned the Rhone, the Rhine, the Danube, the Pyrenees and the Alps. We could turn up to visit or live there and no one could stop us and chuck us out after 90 days. But we exchanged all that for some magic beans in a bag marked " sovereignty".
    OTOH, we now have 'democracy'. We can elect the people who make our laws. That's pretty good. You never get politicians saying "can't do that, Europe sez" any more.
    We had democracy whilst we remained in the Common Market/ EU. We had two elections in 1974 followed by a referendum. We had elections too in 1979, 83, 87,92, 97,2001, 2005, 2010, and 2015 before we had an advisory referendum in 2016. If you so wish you can add in elections in 2017 and 19. Your argument is spurious nonsense. I'd much rather be able to live in Southern France, draw my pension and benefit from healthcare the cost of which is contributed to by the UK Government rather than some nebulous bollocks about sovereignty.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    edited August 11
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815


    "Careless". On phone and coked up FFS. I think that's close to what I would want a life driving ban for.
    I think we will get a strategy with this Govt, TBH.

    They need to replicate Blair's approach, which was something he did get right.

    In 2001 (I think) they said "we will halve road deaths in 10 years", and achieved it in 9. Since then they have started going back up.

    We need Mr Starmer to say "road deaths down to under 1000 in 2 terms", which is essentially achievable from measures that we already know what they are. Would need a header to list them though.
    Hostage to fortune. As cycling to rates increase, so will cyclist deaths even if per mile cycling becomes safer. This is already being used by some to oppose new cycling infrastructure, bizarrely. "Cycling is dangerous".

    The clever way to frame it would be by aiming to reduce insurance premiums for motorists rather than road deaths, IMO. And never mention cycling, just pedestrians who remain a larger group of KSIs and people can relate to more. Stuff that is good for pedestrians is often good for cyclists too.
    "Perceived as dangerous" is correct, and a common reason for not getting on a bike. An endemic view in my town, which is still in the 1980s/1990s for perceptions.

    Virtually all my activism is from the point of view of a disabled pedestrian using a mobility aid (mobility scooter or tricycle). The needs of that combination are such that everything else is covered too, and comes for free, and I can engage the Equality Act to demand reasonable adjustments, which I suggest are now defined by UK recommended standards which are now generally OK, as we have moved on from the 2010s.

    There are certain tensions, but that is down to ignorance or campaigning by fringe groups usually wanting their particular requirements to dominate over everyone else, and trying to create untrue "disabled vs cyclist" narratives, when the cycling infra is actually mobility infra, and a standard bike is probably the most common mobility aid after a walking stick.

    There are a couple of new MPs who have already swallowed that narrative, who I am trying to head off at the pass before they become entrenched via their local walk-ride groups to point out how many disabled people have a cycle as their mobility aid.

    I don't see even raw cycling casualties increasing if we get it right and increase cycling km travelled - London cycling has jumped dramatically over 10 years as casualties have fallen even in raw numbers. I see recent gains as being down to the increase in mileage being driven by the creation of safe infra in Central / Inner London. Long term data is similar for the whole country, but we can still do better.

    I've started framing it as "reduce insurance premiums for motorists" based on recent post 20mph urban speed limit data from Wales demonstrating a 20% premium reduction.
    https://x.com/mattwardman/status/1818909252318040444
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,682

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    I thought I'd repeatedly read that inner cities are on the up with lots of new apartments being built and we should empty all the towns and move to the cities or something.

    Now I read the inner cities are derelict.

    I suspect the truth is somewhere between the extremes.
    The last Government detested the notion of 15 minute cities. 15 minute cities were "too woke". That's how malign and mad they were.
    There's nothing stopping people living in '15 minute cities' if they want to.

    Its trying to oppose '15 minute cities' on places where it cannot work where the problem is.
    Where wouldn't it work?

    80% of people in the UK live in urban areas, and even people who live in small rural villages take a great deal of pride in their local pub, shop, doctor, dentist. 15 minutes is nearly a mile by foot, perhaps 3 miles by bike. That's a big area.

    You get a few people living in seriously remote spots in the Highlands, Hebrides and so on. But no one is suggesting trying to help those folks out (sadly).
    For starters you would need to live within a 15 minute walk of a big supermarket.

    Preferably more than one - people like a choice.

    Preferably less than 15 minutes as who wants to carry their supermarket shopping for that long, especially in the dark or in bad weather.

    And no a 'city' or 'local' sized store will not work, it has to be full sized, and nor will some corner shop.
    Why would you need a big supermarket inside your 15 minute city when you can just drive to one? What else do you want - an airport?!

    I think you've fallen for this conspiracy theory that it's about trapping people in zones. It's just about providing local services, locally. Oddly enough, "would you like to be able to pop round to the dentist" has stunning levels of support.
    If you have to drive out to get what you need its not a 15 minute city is it.

    Yes, it is good if places we need and want to go to are closer.

    But then it becomes a matter of supply and demand and how much it costs.

    People might want a dentist around the corner but its not going to happen because its not economically worthwhile to have that many dentists.

    This is what is within a 15 minute walk of my suburban house:

    2 pubs (crap ones)
    1 full sized supermarket (just)
    A few restaurants (rarely visited)
    Nice walking area

    This is what is within a 15 minute drive of my house:

    Workplace
    3 full sized supermarkets
    Smaller supermarkets (German)
    Endless shops
    Multiple restaurants (often visited)
    Lots of pubs (good ones)
    Health club
    Sports clubs I go to
    Doctor
    Dentist
    Relatives
    Friends
    Lots of nice walking areas
    This is what is within a 15 minute walk of our house:

    Er...
    But you do get fabulously dark Dorset skies to watch the meteors tonight.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Omnium said:

    I know there's been some criticism, but I think these Olympic games have been wonderful. Vive la France!

    Yes. And for some reason I've just had a real burst of sadness about leaving the European Union. Not anger, that's gone now, just sadness.
    When we belonged to the EU we owned Paris, Berlin, Madrid, Lisbon, Prague and Rome. We owned the Rhone, the Rhine, the Danube, the Pyrenees and the Alps. We could turn up to visit or live there and no one could stop us and chuck us out after 90 days. But we exchanged all that for some magic beans in a bag marked " sovereignty".
    OTOH, we now have 'democracy'. We can elect the people who make our laws. That's pretty good. You never get politicians saying "can't do that, Europe sez" any more.
    We had democracy whilst we remained in the Common Market/ EU. We had two elections in 1974 followed by a referendum. We had elections too in 1979, 83, 87,92, 97,2001, 2005, 2010, and 2015 before we had an advisory referendum in 2016. If you so wish you can add in elections in 2017 and 19. Your argument is spurious nonsense. I'd much rather be able to live in Southern France, draw my pension and benefit from healthcare the cost of which is contributed to by the UK Government rather than some nebulous bollocks about sovereignty.
    Being able to elect the people who pass your laws isn't "nebulous bollocks about sovereignty". It's something people fought and died for. If the price for that is sacrificing the automatic right to live in a country whose language I don't speak, that seems a very small price to pay.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    This argument appears to be:
    Cookie: The beautification of Britain is a good idea, and the Tories ought to use it as part of an offer to widen their appeal.
    MexicanPete: But I hate the Tories.

    I'm not arguing about whether or not the Tories are good. I'm arguing that this is something good they could usefully and distinctively be in favour of.
    Alternatively, they could get behind the idea, and it would be good for them do to so and good for the country if they enacted it. The catch is that, to make it happen, they would have to go against some of their currently cherished beliefs. For starters, allowing local society to make meaningful decisions and the taxpayer spending the money to make this happen.

    A Conservative Party that thought in terms of leaving a positive legacy for our grandchildren would be an excellent thing. Unfortunately, the "break it up for parts to flog off" tendency has been a bit too ascendant for a bit too long.

    Suspect it's part of a wider malaise. Optimistic politics tends to be framed about "what are the good things in life and how can they be opened up to more people?" Things like pleasant neighbourhoods. At the moment, there's a bit too much emphasis on how difficult that is, which leads to grim zero-sum "if they are doing well, it's at my expense" thinking, which has... consequences for society, and not pretty ones.
    Well yes. And changing that is how the Tories get back in contention.
    Well I believe Robert Jenrick is handy with a paint brush.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Thank goodness Thomas Bach is on his way out. Hopefully Coe will get the gig, probably not woke enough to get voted in, mind !
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,945
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815


    "Careless". On phone and coked up FFS. I think that's close to what I would want a life driving ban for.
    I think we will get a strategy with this Govt, TBH.

    They need to replicate Blair's approach, which was something he did get right.

    In 2001 (I think) they said "we will halve road deaths in 10 years", and achieved it in 9. Since then they have started going back up.

    We need Mr Starmer to say "road deaths down to under 1000 in 2 terms", which is essentially achievable from measures that we already know what they are. Would need a header to list them though.
    Hostage to fortune. As cycling to rates increase, so will cyclist deaths even if per mile cycling becomes safer. This is already being used by some to oppose new cycling infrastructure, bizarrely. "Cycling is dangerous".

    The clever way to frame it would be by aiming to reduce insurance premiums for motorists rather than road deaths, IMO. And never mention cycling, just pedestrians who remain a larger group of KSIs and people can relate to more. Stuff that is good for pedestrians is often good for cyclists too.
    "Perceived as dangerous" is correct, and a common reason for not getting on a bike. An endemic view in my town, which is still in the 1980s/1990s for perceptions.

    Virtually all my activism is from the point of view of a disabled pedestrian using a mobility aid (mobility scooter or tricycle). The needs of that combination are such that everything else is covered too, and comes for free, and I can engage the Equality Act to demand reasonable adjustments, which I suggest are now defined by UK recommended standards which are now generally OK, as we have moved on from the 2010s.

    There are certain tensions, but that is down to ignorance or campaigning by fringe groups usually wanting their particular requirements to dominate over everyone else, and trying to create untrue "disabled vs cyclist" narratives, when the cycling infra is actually mobility infra, and a standard bike is probably the most common mobility aid after a walking stick.

    There are a couple of new MPs who have already swallowed that narrative, who I am trying to head off at the pass before they become entrenched via their local walk-ride groups to point out how many disabled people have a cycle as their mobility aid.

    I don't see even raw cycling casualties increasing if we get it right and increase cycling km travelled - London cycling has jumped dramatically as casualties have fallen even in raw numbers. I see recent gains as being down to the increase in mileage being driven by the creation of safe infra in Central / Inner London. Long term data is similar for the whole country, but we can do better.

    I've started framing it as "reduce insurance premiums for motorists" based on recent post 20mph urban speed limit data from Wales demonstrating a 20% premium reduction.
    https://x.com/mattwardman/status/1818909252318040444
    That's interesting for London, thanks! I do wonder if drivers are now becoming conditioned to cyclists in the big cycling cities, constantly checking for them. And cycling is so sensitive to infrastructure that increases don't come without it, also perhaps helping with casualty rates. Hmmm.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,413

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Why are we ditching rugby? Olympic rugby 7s is surely the pinnacle of the sport? Also my favourite event.
    Football should take a leaf and Olympic football should be a five-a-side tournament.
    We've got Flag Football (wtf?) next time.
    Don't be fooled. Flag football is not football. It is the American football equivalent of touch rugby.

    Olympic football is an under-23 event, isn't it? It's not full-blown internationals.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,785
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    If there's a grift in it for them why not?

    The simple fact is that austerity decimated civic society and services so the place looks a shambles. After 14 years of Conservative Governments inner cities are derelict, the highways are pot-holed and our green and pleasant land is a repository for fly-tipped waste. I don't suppose resolving all that is high on Labour's to-do list, and it certainly won't be on the next Conservative Government's top fifty agenda.
    I thought I'd repeatedly read that inner cities are on the up with lots of new apartments being built and we should empty all the towns and move to the cities or something.

    Now I read the inner cities are derelict.

    I suspect the truth is somewhere between the extremes.
    The last Government detested the notion of 15 minute cities. 15 minute cities were "too woke". That's how malign and mad they were.
    There's nothing stopping people living in '15 minute cities' if they want to.

    Its trying to oppose '15 minute cities' on places where it cannot work where the problem is.
    Where wouldn't it work?

    80% of people in the UK live in urban areas, and even people who live in small rural villages take a great deal of pride in their local pub, shop, doctor, dentist. 15 minutes is nearly a mile by foot, perhaps 3 miles by bike. That's a big area.

    You get a few people living in seriously remote spots in the Highlands, Hebrides and so on. But no one is suggesting trying to help those folks out (sadly).
    For starters you would need to live within a 15 minute walk of a big supermarket.

    Preferably more than one - people like a choice.

    Preferably less than 15 minutes as who wants to carry their supermarket shopping for that long, especially in the dark or in bad weather.

    And no a 'city' or 'local' sized store will not work, it has to be full sized, and nor will some corner shop.
    Why would you need a big supermarket inside your 15 minute city when you can just drive to one? What else do you want - an airport?!

    I think you've fallen for this conspiracy theory that it's about trapping people in zones. It's just about providing local services, locally. Oddly enough, "would you like to be able to pop round to the dentist" has stunning levels of support.
    If you have to drive out to get what you need its not a 15 minute city is it.

    Yes, it is good if places we need and want to go to are closer.

    But then it becomes a matter of supply and demand and how much it costs.

    People might want a dentist around the corner but its not going to happen because its not economically worthwhile to have that many dentists.

    This is what is within a 15 minute walk of my suburban house:

    2 pubs (crap ones)
    1 full sized supermarket (just)
    A few restaurants (rarely visited)
    Nice walking area

    This is what is within a 15 minute drive of my house:

    Workplace
    3 full sized supermarkets
    Smaller supermarkets (German)
    Endless shops
    Multiple restaurants (often visited)
    Lots of pubs (good ones)
    Health club
    Sports clubs I go to
    Doctor
    Dentist
    Relatives
    Friends
    Lots of nice walking areas
    It's not just walking - it's also cycling (approx 3 miles), public transport (for me about 1.5 miles). Try now?
    Take a look at any supermarket, any workplace, any school, any hospital, anything really at the proportion of cars and cycles to see which people prefer to use.

    Now you could say use a car for X but a cycle for Y.

    But once you have a car you're going to use it for everything - its quicker, easier, safer, more comfortable and more flexible.

    We're not even going to have the air pollution problem with electric cars.

    As for public transport well I could be at my oldies in ten minutes by car and about two hours by bus. With another two hours needed to return. With similar ratios for most things I do.

    Public transport is okay if you're on a bus route and heading to or from the local town but its no good if you're heading to a different part of the area which would require multiple buses.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    edited August 11

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison ie 23 months then out on license, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up, driving his children around, using his phone.

    Just another day on our roads.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815
    I don't understand why something like that isn't a lifetime ban from driving for starters.
    Inertia, and fear by Govt of offending motorists. Lifetime bans are VERY rare.

    See also the 10-15k per year who are not subjected to the totting-up driving bans they have earned because of the "Exceptional Hardship" loophole.

    Personally I think lifetime bans are like lifelong gaol sentences - they have a weakness of not incentivising compliance by removing the hope of redemption.

    So I would look more to measures such as 20 year ban or a ban until 30 years of age for a 19 year old tearaway, with a hope of a modest reduction if no offences and proof of a mature mental attidude.

    For gaol sentences I would like something more like "2 years inside and 1 year suspended for 10 years", as they do in Ireland. Again - it's about improving long-term behaviour.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,502
    So it turns out it is flea-treatments for dogs and cats that are also killing our rivers. Springwatch

    FFS get rid of your pets. You don't need animal slaves. They are killing Britain
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,413
    Yet another take on the medals table. A measure of efficiency, with countries ranked by the fraction of their medals which are gold. Again, Britain is just behind France.

    1 Uzbekistan 8 golds, 13 medals in total
    2 New Zealand 10 20
    3 Japan 20 45
    4 Netherlands 15 34
    5 China 40 91

    6 South Korea 13 32
    7 Sweden 4 11
    8 Kenya 4 11
    9 Germany 12 33
    10 Australia 18 53

    11 Canada 9 27
    12 United States 40 126
    13 Hungary 6 19
    14 Italy 12 40
    15 Spain 5 18

    16 Ukraine 3 12
    17 Iran 3 12
    18 France 16 64
    19 Great Britain 14 65
    20 Brazil 3 20
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    Did anyone expect Tom Cruise to show up?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    Leon said:

    So it turns out it is flea-treatments for dogs and cats that are also killing our rivers. Springwatch

    FFS get rid of your pets. You don't need animal slaves. They are killing Britain

    So if we ban cats, dogs and Glasto we should be better off for mayflies, tadpoles and so on.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,682
    Leon said:

    So it turns out it is flea-treatments for dogs and cats that are also killing our rivers. Springwatch

    FFS get rid of your pets. You don't need animal slaves. They are killing Britain

    I’m more worried about hormones being peed out by women on hrt, and many other drugs that enter the water courses via the toilet.
    There would be a huge market for drugs that perform as well as current ones but can be easily broken down (e.g. by UV) at the sewage treatment plant.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,413
    Re 15 minute cities. I could not do my weekly shop without getting a lift by car. The supermarket is just over a mile away but not on a bus route, and even if it were, I cannot carry 5 or 6 full bags by bus.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,767
     
    Andy_JS said:

    Did anyone expect Tom Cruise to show up?

    yup

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,682
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    As a non-cycling, non-driving observer, it does seem to me that standards of driving and cycling have dropped. Whether that is due to a greater sense of entitlement, or more crowded roads, or confusing and badly-publicised changes to the Highway Code, I couldn't say.
    I think there's some truth in that, although categories are difficult with words like "e-bike" to refer to things which are electric motorcycles or mopeds. I think there is an issue with more new cyclists, hire schemes etc.

    There's quite a lot to do with car cruising culture and availability of cheap fast cars - one red flag is an 8-12 year old grey or black Audi or BMW or Mercedes or SUV.

    And also loss of driving skills in COVID, and little continuing education for drivers since - not even public information films, and a low likelihood of getting caught.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    edited August 11
    I don't know this band but they sound a lot like Gang of Four.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,413
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815


    "Careless". On phone and coked up FFS. I think that's close to what I would want a life driving ban for.
    I think we will get a strategy with this Govt, TBH.

    They need to replicate Blair's approach, which was something he did get right.

    In 2001 (I think) they said "we will halve road deaths in 10 years", and achieved it in 9. Since then they have started going back up.

    We need Mr Starmer to say "road deaths down to under 1000 in 2 terms", which is essentially achievable from measures that we already know what they are. Would need a header to list them though.
    Hostage to fortune. As cycling to rates increase, so will cyclist deaths even if per mile cycling becomes safer. This is already being used by some to oppose new cycling infrastructure, bizarrely. "Cycling is dangerous".

    The clever way to frame it would be by aiming to reduce insurance premiums for motorists rather than road deaths, IMO. And never mention cycling, just pedestrians who remain a larger group of KSIs and people can relate to more. Stuff that is good for pedestrians is often good for cyclists too.
    "Perceived as dangerous" is correct, and a common reason for not getting on a bike. An endemic view in my town, which is still in the 1980s/1990s for perceptions.

    Virtually all my activism is from the point of view of a disabled pedestrian using a mobility aid (mobility scooter or tricycle). The needs of that combination are such that everything else is covered too, and comes for free, and I can engage the Equality Act to demand reasonable adjustments, which I suggest are now defined by UK recommended standards which are now generally OK, as we have moved on from the 2010s.

    There are certain tensions, but that is down to ignorance or campaigning by fringe groups usually wanting their particular requirements to dominate over everyone else, and trying to create untrue "disabled vs cyclist" narratives, when the cycling infra is actually mobility infra, and a standard bike is probably the most common mobility aid after a walking stick.

    There are a couple of new MPs who have already swallowed that narrative, who I am trying to head off at the pass before they become entrenched via their local walk-ride groups to point out how many disabled people have a cycle as their mobility aid.

    I don't see even raw cycling casualties increasing if we get it right and increase cycling km travelled - London cycling has jumped dramatically as casualties have fallen even in raw numbers. I see recent gains as being down to the increase in mileage being driven by the creation of safe infra in Central / Inner London. Long term data is similar for the whole country, but we can do better.

    I've started framing it as "reduce insurance premiums for motorists" based on recent post 20mph urban speed limit data from Wales demonstrating a 20% premium reduction.
    https://x.com/mattwardman/status/1818909252318040444
    That's interesting for London, thanks! I do wonder if drivers are now becoming conditioned to cyclists in the big cycling cities, constantly checking for them. And cycling is so sensitive to infrastructure that increases don't come without it, also perhaps helping with casualty rates. Hmmm.
    Other London factors might be a higher proportion of professional drivers, and cycling following rush hour peaks, at least in town with commuters on Boris bikes.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,472

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    And they'll all hate St. Helens.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Having been mean about Britain for weeks, gotta say Richmond riverside looks pretty good this evening



    Somehow we need to make all the left behind towns have a hint of Richmond upon Thames. It’s not going to be easy - but we really really really need to try

    Cleaning out town centres, getting rid of litter, erasing graffiti, giving little towns a reason to be proud. That’s the way. The French do it. We can, too

    I sketched out an idea for a thread header about this a while back. Possibly a new raison d'etre for the Tories: making Britain beautiful. Somewhere we can be proud to leave to our grandchildren.
    Tories should embrace the National Trust.
    Once upon a time, they did - nowadays NT seem to be mainly focused on making people ashamed to be British.
    Not me mate, but you've had a shed full of likes, so what do I know?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,472
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    As a non-cycling, non-driving observer, it does seem to me that standards of driving and cycling have dropped. Whether that is due to a greater sense of entitlement, or more crowded roads, or confusing and badly-publicised changes to the Highway Code, I couldn't say.
    I think there's some truth in that, although categories are difficult with words like "e-bike" to refer to things which are electric motorcycles or mopeds. I think there is an issue with more new cyclists, hire schemes etc.

    There's quite a lot to do with car cruising culture and availability of cheap fast cars - one red flag is an 8-12 year old grey or black Audi or BMW or Mercedes or SUV.

    And also loss of driving skills in COVID, and little continuing education for drivers since - not even public information films, and a low likelihood of getting caught.

    Having a driving licence is a privilege not a right. That needs to be put front and centre as an attitude.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Red Hot Chillies play Venice beach and there's only about a hundred people watching.

    Surely shome mishtake?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,472
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    I did flippantly suggest the other day that we could do it by star sign.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    I heartily object to your comment - it's Trowbridge vs Frome!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Andy_JS said:

    I don't know this band but they sound a lot like Gang of Four.

    I assume you're talking about the band following the Red hot Chilli peppers ?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990
    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    I did flippantly suggest the other day that we could do it by star sign.
    Why cant we just respect sporting achievement on a personal level?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    On the contrary. If the behaviour is channelled into good natured competition in the realm of sport it can bring everyone together whilst still fostering local identity in a positive way, it's not inherently bad.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,682
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    This is different. It’s not ‘my country is better than yours, so we are going to invade’. It’s ninety minutes of sport, cheering your side on, then handshakes all round and have a drink and chat in the pub. That’s the Olympic way. (Also cricket and rugby). If you cannot see the difference, look a bit harder.
    I like to joke that that the SNP are essentially the Scottish Nazi party. Scottish tick. National(ist) tick (sort of) and Socialist (again, sort of). But the SNP nationalism is not like 1930s black shirts. It’s a kind a nationalism that the left in England struggle with, which leaves a space for the idiotic rioters of last week. It’s personified by those who have issues with the England flag but not with the Welsh, Scottish or Irish flags, for instance.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,502
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    So it turns out it is flea-treatments for dogs and cats that are also killing our rivers. Springwatch

    FFS get rid of your pets. You don't need animal slaves. They are killing Britain

    So if we ban cats, dogs and Glasto we should be better off for mayflies, tadpoles and so on.
    YES. People that insist on owning cats and dogs are pathetic social losers. There is no reason for it, it is pure selfishness, with every day that passes this becomes more apparent. You do not need a dog slave, shitting the fuck out of the world, you do not need a cat slave, killing all the songbirds in the nation. Essentially, they should be forbidden, until that moment, they should be very very heavily taxed
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,433

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    I did flippantly suggest the other day that we could do it by star sign.
    Why cant we just respect sporting achievement on a personal level?
    For a start say take the 100 metres.....we want the 10 best in the world competing surely, not the best for gb, russia, us etc.

    If the 10 best for example all happen to be kenyan would that not be a better race?
  • booksellerbookseller Posts: 508
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    This was interesting given recent discussions on PB: Cricket will be in the 2028 Olympics for first time since 1900.

    'T20 format and 20 overs.' Team GB gotta be in the running for a medal in men's and women?

    Still no darts or snooker...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815


    "Careless". On phone and coked up FFS. I think that's close to what I would want a life driving ban for.
    I think we will get a strategy with this Govt, TBH.

    They need to replicate Blair's approach, which was something he did get right.

    In 2001 (I think) they said "we will halve road deaths in 10 years", and achieved it in 9. Since then they have started going back up.

    We need Mr Starmer to say "road deaths down to under 1000 in 2 terms", which is essentially achievable from measures that we already know what they are. Would need a header to list them though.
    Looking at the annual figures it’s interesting that broadly there is a trend to fewer deaths since the Second World War. Whatever Blair did was getting back on the trend line. We seem to have reached another plateau right now. Not sure what the answer is, although mandated spikes on steering wheels would almost certainly work.
    One other thing - is there an inverse relationship between road deaths and congestion? More cars, slower traffic, fewer deaths? Clearly better safety features help those in the cars, but not those outside.
    We'll get graduated driving licenses for one - as 17-24 year old men are 4x as likely to be killed behind the wheel as an average driver, and we have precedent in NI. That, and various other things, are low hanging fruit.

    Am I going to have to crank out my little list as a weekend header soon?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,413
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    As a non-cycling, non-driving observer, it does seem to me that standards of driving and cycling have dropped. Whether that is due to a greater sense of entitlement, or more crowded roads, or confusing and badly-publicised changes to the Highway Code, I couldn't say.
    I think there's some truth in that, although categories are difficult with words like "e-bike" to refer to things which are electric motorcycles or mopeds. I think there is an issue with more new cyclists, hire schemes etc.

    There's quite a lot to do with car cruising culture and availability of cheap fast cars - one red flag is an 8-12 year old grey or black Audi or BMW or Mercedes or SUV.

    And also loss of driving skills in COVID, and little continuing education for drivers since - not even public information films, and a low likelihood of getting caught.

    The lack of public information around far-reaching changes to the Highway Code was shocking.

    It might not be faster cars that are the problem so much as wider ones. I do sometimes wonder if drivers know where their edges are.

    E-bikes can be hard to categorise but at least in my experience are ridden better than ordinary bikes. They keep to the road rather than pavement, and the riders are more likely to be looking up at where they are going. It might be because (at least round here) e-bikes are largely used by professional riders, as part of their delivery jobs, so they are more experienced than an ordinary cyclist riding an hour a day or just an hour a week.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    edited August 11
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    I did flippantly suggest the other day that we could do it by star sign.
    Why cant we just respect sporting achievement on a personal level?
    Because it's fun to share in the glories of others, even in a tenuous way, or commiserate with them. It helps us forge connections with fellow human beings in a way that is simply not possible to do with everyone alive on earth, our brains are not built that way. Athletes often seem to agree, they get a kick out of it not purely because it is a personal accomplishment, just look at the pride some have specifically when winning for their nation for the first time.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,433
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    I think the idea is that it is nationalism re-directed. Instead of fighting wars, we compete in sport. You can't avoid nationalism, the argument goes, but better to be cheering different 100m runners than killing.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,682
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    I did flippantly suggest the other day that we could do it by star sign.
    Why cant we just respect sporting achievement on a personal level?
    For a start say take the 100 metres.....we want the 10 best in the world competing surely, not the best for gb, russia, us etc.

    If the 10 best for example all happen to be kenyan would that not be a better race?
    Wrong race, but yes there is a point to what you suggest. It’s just that most everybody else doesn’t want it that way.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    So it turns out it is flea-treatments for dogs and cats that are also killing our rivers. Springwatch

    FFS get rid of your pets. You don't need animal slaves. They are killing Britain

    So if we ban cats, dogs and Glasto we should be better off for mayflies, tadpoles and so on.
    YES. People that insist on owning cats and dogs are pathetic social losers. There is no reason for it, it is pure selfishness, with every day that passes this becomes more apparent. You do not need a dog slave, shitting the fuck out of the world, you do not need a cat slave, killing all the songbirds in the nation. Essentially, they should be forbidden, until that moment, they should be very very heavily taxed
    You are JD Vance and I claim my £5.
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 891
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Well good luck with that.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,472
    edited August 11
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    I did flippantly suggest the other day that we could do it by star sign.
    Why cant we just respect sporting achievement on a personal level?
    I get that.
    My suggestion was for team sports.
    Imagine the World Cup. By star sign.
    Would you have gangs of drunken Saggitarians smashing up cities? Nah. They'd be watching documentaries. And getting off with each other and Leos.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,433

    Red Hot Chillies play Venice beach and there's only about a hundred people watching.

    Surely shome mishtake?

    Presumably controlled access? Close off the beach and only allow in a small set with tickets...?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Dre and Dogg still major players 👍
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,682
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    On medals, I'm interested in the -6 on cycling golds, and why the total is so low.

    I think the absence of Charlotte Dujardin the horse dancer, after whipping her horse abusively (24 strokes in one minute), may be significant. She has 3 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronzes from the last 3 Olympics.

    On the cycling, I think two points:

    1 - I get the impression that the training regime is marginally less hard charging than previously, although it is also the case that other countries have had 15-20 years to catch up since we really started getting our edge in 2004.

    2 - I'm interested in whether our poisonous road culture, which is notably worse than most others in Western Europe in attitudes, has any long term impact on participation.

    I haven't been able to find enough data to inform on this one (I suspect this impacts at this time more on wider professional cycling and where they choose to base), yet it is only 9 weeks since Kate Richardson had to withdraw from the Womens Tour de France after a driver of a 4x4 left her with a fractured scapula after hitting her when squeezing past on a 4m wide country lane near Holmfirth.

    Do you think our "poisonous road culture" didn't exist 10 to 20 years ago?
    I think it did. And I'd date it probably to starting in the 1920s or 1930s, and intensifying from the 1970s onwards with number of vehicles on our roads going from ~12-15m in 1970 to 41m+ now.

    There's easy to find online media coverage from the 2000s or earlier.

    I'm currently reading a history of cycle cammers, which slightly surprised me with how recently and how rapidly it has grown, even though I have been following the area for nearly a decade. The first known conviction for a third party report of an offence ie cammer as witness not victim, is reported as 2012. First vids online date from ~2006-7, and first crime reports as victim from ~2010.

    This is the first 3rd party report vid from 2012 by CycleGaz:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCS3FLgYWM

    A large majority of cammers have always been in motor vehicles, so there are probably earlier cases of dash cammers or motorcyclist cammers doing the same.

    I think what has changed is visibility and public debate, and therefore an opportunity for voluntary or involuntary education, as from cammers we have a tool to drag the issue out into the public space and talk about it.

    We have to due to traffic police numbers having been ~halved since 2000, and the speciality abolished in ~2002 by Mr Blair - one thing he got wrong.
    Yep, it's worth reminding people that the biggest "grasses" are motorists themselves. Indeed, I'm aware of one conviction for seriously injuring a cyclist was only secured due to a friendly driver providing their footage in court (via a pack of DVDs - Scottish courts are rubbish, and the 4k footage provided to the police ends up potato quality).
    This was one reported last week - 39 year old driver in Leicestershire killed a 64 year old riding a bike when drugged up ferrying his children and was swerving all over the lane looking at his phone.

    Initially lied his head off blaming his victim who "swerved in front of him causing the collision", as most of them do, then changed his plea to guilty.

    His 8 year had remarked to the paramedic:
    ""Daddy was trying to get a song on that he liked. He didn't see a bike and we hit it."

    3 years 9 months in prison, and a 5 year driving ban. For taking a life while drugged up.

    https://road.cc/content/news/drug-driving-dad-jailed-cyclists-death-309815


    "Careless". On phone and coked up FFS. I think that's close to what I would want a life driving ban for.
    I think we will get a strategy with this Govt, TBH.

    They need to replicate Blair's approach, which was something he did get right.

    In 2001 (I think) they said "we will halve road deaths in 10 years", and achieved it in 9. Since then they have started going back up.

    We need Mr Starmer to say "road deaths down to under 1000 in 2 terms", which is essentially achievable from measures that we already know what they are. Would need a header to list them though.
    Looking at the annual figures it’s interesting that broadly there is a trend to fewer deaths since the Second World War. Whatever Blair did was getting back on the trend line. We seem to have reached another plateau right now. Not sure what the answer is, although mandated spikes on steering wheels would almost certainly work.
    One other thing - is there an inverse relationship between road deaths and congestion? More cars, slower traffic, fewer deaths? Clearly better safety features help those in the cars, but not those outside.
    We'll get graduated driving licenses for one - as 17-24 year old men are 4x as likely to be killed behind the wheel as an average driver, and we have precedent in NI. That, and various other things, are low hanging fruit.

    Am I going to have to crank out my little list as a weekend header soon?
    Speed limit of 30 mph would do it. Although it may cause innumerable embolisms in the Clarkson fan club.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,767

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    This was interesting given recent discussions on PB: Cricket will be in the 2028 Olympics for first time since 1900.

    'T20 format and 20 overs.' Team GB gotta be in the running for a medal in men's and women?

    Still no darts or snooker...
    nor bowls

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,767
    edited August 11
    dupe
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    So what would we like to see ditched from the Olympics. In no particular order:

    Football
    Rugby
    Tennis
    Golf
    Basketball

    Sport?
    Closing ceremonies?
    Strangely while sometimes I can be a little flippant, sarcastic even or attempt humour this was actually a serious point in someways I obviously don't want to ban sport as its generally a good thing for general health. What I would like to see however is the fucking nationalism dropped....Person x wins the 100 metres....yeah its not a win for their county its a win for them and good on them.....just because you come from the same country does not make you a winner
    Humans have an instinct for tribal behaviour. It might be small (Warminster vs Frome round my way, always hotly contested), or your football team, or eventually up to Nations. If we ever do meet alien races you can imagine it’ll keep going - Earthicans vs those damned Alpha Centaurans…
    Yes but most here decry nationalist behaviour but its suddenly ok because its sport.....no its either right or wrong
    I did flippantly suggest the other day that we could do it by star sign.
    Why cant we just respect sporting achievement on a personal level?
    For a start say take the 100 metres.....we want the 10 best in the world competing surely, not the best for gb, russia, us etc.

    If the 10 best for example all happen to be kenyan would that not be a better race?
    It would be a better race, but it would not be as interesting an entertainment spectacle, because it would like the layer of investment people put on people in their tribe.

    I don't know what is baffling about all this, sports has never been purely about the physical accomplishment, it's about entertainment as well, and entertainment benefits from dramatic narratives and emotion. We want it to be real too, the best up against the best, if we just want physicality and entertainment we'll go to the circus or watch WWE, but the little stories that come simply from nations competing elevates it.
This discussion has been closed.