Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Money, money, money – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,056
edited August 4 in General
Money, money, money – politicalbetting.com

The Conservatives are expected to use their party conference to hold the hustings between the final two candidates for leader amid concerns that the party doesn’t have enough money for a longer contest ?? https://t.co/RTbd3pSQHr

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,611
    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,458
    I hear the quiet man may be returning
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,611
    J D Vance sounds like the catalogue I'd reach to first for my Hyacinth Bucket cosplay fit

    https://x.com/Superbreeze_Bex/status/1813104826261115214
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,383
    Can I give a heartfelt thank-you to the Tories for taking my mind off the catastrophe that is America
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,611
    What I saw when I saw a bandaged Trump.



    https://x.com/TSEofPB/status/1813105003017490760
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,893

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    I do, I do, I do.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    So a contest at conference where the
    winner takes it all.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,893
    .

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    So a contest at conference where the
    winner takes it all.
    More of an SOS from the party.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,235
    The Conservatives might have no money one but lots of Conservatives do.

    Perhaps the likes of Cameron, Osborne, May, Boris and Truss might donate some of the many millions they've received from 'giving speeches' and pimping themselves out to oligarchs since leaving office.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,611
    edited July 16
    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    The SNP’s financial crisis has deepened after it was revealed that the party received no money from private donors during the crucial closing stages of the general election campaign.

    According to figures reported to the Electoral Commission for the final week of campaigning and polling day itself, £1.9 million was given by donors to political parties. The UK Labour Party received nearly £1.4 million and the Conservatives £350,000.

    But the Scottish nationalists received nothing, news that adds to an already bleak financial picture. The party has received no “reportable” private cash donations this year and the only substantial money it received was £317,511 in public funds.

    It is also struggling with falling membership. The total number of members is thought to be about half its 2019 peak of 125,000.

    Cash from private sources dried up during Humza Yousaf’s period as party leader and first minister, and membership subscriptions and taxpayer cash became the party’s main sources of funds.

    However, taxpayer income will fall substantially, with the SNP standing to lose nearly a £1 million a year in Short money, the system under which parties receive £22,296 a year for each elected MP and £44.53 for every 200 votes to assist their work at Westminster.

    The party’s hammering by Scottish Labour resulted in a plunge in the number of its MPs from 48 to nine, meaning a drop in income from £1.3 million to £350,000 in Short money.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,530
    Can I just say that the Shokz Openswim Pro swimming headphones are blooming brilliant, especially if you do a lot of swimming. They're bone-conduction headphones with a built in MP3 player. They're also good for running, as they leave your ears open to hear traffic and the like.

    The sound quality isn't as good as ear-covering headphones, but about as good as in-ear plugs - except in noisy environments.

    I swum two miles in the pool yesterday, and the headphones made the lengths fly by.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551

    The Conservatives might have no money one but lots of Conservatives do.

    Perhaps the likes of Cameron, Osborne, May, Boris and Truss might donate some of the many millions they've received from 'giving speeches' and pimping themselves out to oligarchs since leaving office.

    Er, why would they do that?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,383

    The Conservatives might have no money one but lots of Conservatives do.

    Perhaps the likes of Cameron, Osborne, May, Boris and Truss might donate some of the many millions they've received from 'giving speeches' and pimping themselves out to oligarchs since leaving office.

    Mrs Sunak might be able to spare a few bob too.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,466

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's as in large donations, though - the stats don't cover small donations. Party has generally had fewer of the former than Tories being bribed, sorry donated to, by big business.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551
    To change the mood a little, I liked this article explaining why England were so woeful in the group stages at the Euros.

    https://www.football365.com/news/opinion-16-conclusions-england-euro-2024-final-southgate-out-kane-walker

    And (almost back on topic) is Klopp the serious Tom Tugenhadt style candidate to replace the dreary Southgate/ Sunak?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,394
    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,611
    ‘Out-of-touch’ SNP plans debate on post-independence national anthem

    Ex-MP warns party will get ‘horsed’ at 2026 Holyrood elections unless it urgently changes


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/14/snp-plans-debate-on-national-anthem/
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,944

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,427

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    There’s definitely no subtle Abba references there.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,349

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    The SNP’s financial crisis has deepened after it was revealed that the party received no money from private donors during the crucial closing stages of the general election campaign.

    According to figures reported to the Electoral Commission for the final week of campaigning and polling day itself, £1.9 million was given by donors to political parties. The UK Labour Party received nearly £1.4 million and the Conservatives £350,000.

    But the Scottish nationalists received nothing, news that adds to an already bleak financial picture. The party has received no “reportable” private cash donations this year and the only substantial money it received was £317,511 in public funds.

    It is also struggling with falling membership. The total number of members is thought to be about half its 2019 peak of 125,000.

    Cash from private sources dried up during Humza Yousaf’s period as party leader and first minister, and membership subscriptions and taxpayer cash became the party’s main sources of funds.

    However, taxpayer income will fall substantially, with the SNP standing to lose nearly a £1 million a year in Short money, the system under which parties receive £22,296 a year for each elected MP and £44.53 for every 200 votes to assist their work at Westminster.

    The party’s hammering by Scottish Labour resulted in a plunge in the number of its MPs from 48 to nine, meaning a drop in income from £1.3 million to £350,000 in Short money.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    The missing word in this report is "reportable". You only need to register payments over £500 in any accounting period. Donations below that level are not individually recorded.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,235

    The Conservatives might have no money one but lots of Conservatives do.

    Perhaps the likes of Cameron, Osborne, May, Boris and Truss might donate some of the many millions they've received from 'giving speeches' and pimping themselves out to oligarchs since leaving office.

    Er, why would they do that?
    I am assuming, perhaps naively, that the leading Conservative politicians of recent years wish the Conservative party well and would be willing to give back a small fraction of what the Conservative party has allowed them to 'earn'.

    But perhaps its a case of not asking what they can do for the Conservative party but what the Conservative party can do for them.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,113

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    The occasion for a reference
    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    This is true (and thank you for spotting it). Donations have to be reported but they don't have to be reported instantaneously and there is a time lag. We are still only twelve days and one working week after the election.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,426

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    Fuxake!

    I thought we were safe until at least 9.00!
    Have I accidentally logged on to Infowars? Are they turning the frogs gay?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,235

    The Conservatives might have no money one but lots of Conservatives do.

    Perhaps the likes of Cameron, Osborne, May, Boris and Truss might donate some of the many millions they've received from 'giving speeches' and pimping themselves out to oligarchs since leaving office.

    Mrs Sunak might be able to spare a few bob too.
    As can Mogg.

    There's no shortage of rich and very rich Conservative politicians.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,394

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    Fuxake!

    I thought we were safe until at least 9.00!
    And I’ve not even had coffee
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,611
    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    They do, I've not copied the full article, from the article.

    The reportable figure for a single donation for the last four weeks up to polling day is £11,180.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,349
    viewcode said:

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    The occasion for a reference
    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    This is true (and thank you for spotting it). Donations have to be reported but they don't have to be reported instantaneously and there is a time lag. We are still only twelve days and one working week after the election.
    More to the point 10000 members might have donated £400 each and there would be no reportable donations. Only the accounts give the full picture and, in the case of the SNP, I am not completely confident about even them.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551

    The Conservatives might have no money one but lots of Conservatives do.

    Perhaps the likes of Cameron, Osborne, May, Boris and Truss might donate some of the many millions they've received from 'giving speeches' and pimping themselves out to oligarchs since leaving office.

    Er, why would they do that?
    I am assuming, perhaps naively, that the leading Conservative politicians of recent years wish the Conservative party well and would be willing to give back a small fraction of what the Conservative party has allowed them to 'earn'.

    But perhaps its a case of not asking what they can do for the Conservative party but what the Conservative party can do for them.
    Like a PPE contract quid pro quo? Seems fair.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,394
    Try and wrap your head around this


    Thomas Matthew Crooks, the 20-year-old gunman who attempted to assassinate former President Donald Trump at a campaign rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, was spotted on the roof 26 minutes before the shooting occurred.

    The FBI has confirmed that Crooks was seen by law enforcement members from the Allegheny County Police Department on the roof of a building with a clear sightline to the former president.

    Despite being alerted to his presence, authorities failed to confront him, allowing him to remain hidden for nearly 30 minutes before he opened fire on Trump and the crowd.

    The shocking new allegations have raised questions about how Crooks was able to evade detection and carry out the attack, which left Trump wounded and a member of the crowd dead.

    A sniper even took a picture of the suspect with a rangefinder and radioed to the command post before the Trump assassination attempt, CBS reports.

    Crooks was on local police and Secret Service's radar for nearly a half hour before the shooting attempt, but he kept "disappearing" before he climbed on the roof.

    "Crooks disappeared again and then came back a THIRD time with a backpack," CBS reported. "The snipers called in with information that he had a backpack and said he was walking towards the back of the building."

    It gets crazier. The New York Post reports local police were INSIDE the building that Thomas Crooks climbed on top of. The building was carved out of the Secret Service security perimeter and delegated to local police despite it being a "well-known high priority vulnerability.”

    Before the shooting, a police officer actually confronted Crooks, who had a rifle. The police officer scrambled back down the ladder, allowing the shooter to fire at least five rounds at the former president.

    No one had warned Trump.”
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,200
    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,466
    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    The occasion for a reference
    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    This is true (and thank you for spotting it). Donations have to be reported but they don't have to be reported instantaneously and there is a time lag. We are still only twelve days and one working week after the election.
    More to the point 10000 members might have donated £400 each and there would be no reportable donations. Only the accounts give the full picture and, in the case of the SNP, I am not completely confident about even them.
    We've had this error before on PB. Disappointing.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,944

    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    They do, I've not copied the full article, from the article.

    The reportable figure for a single donation for the last four weeks up to polling day is £11,180.
    That could be read as they received a single donation of £11,000 in the last 4 weeks. The article is silly clickbait worthy of Edinburgh Live.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,394
    I’m right. It’s the Ukes. Working with local cops
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,944
    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    The occasion for a reference
    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    This is true (and thank you for spotting it). Donations have to be reported but they don't have to be reported instantaneously and there is a time lag. We are still only twelve days and one working week after the election.
    More to the point 10000 members might have donated £400 each and there would be no reportable donations. Only the accounts give the full picture and, in the case of the SNP, I am not completely confident about even them.
    The reportable figure is even higher now - £11,000. The SNP could be rolling in small donations*

    *Do not bet on that
  • Leon said:

    Try and wrap your head around this


    Thomas Matthew Crooks, the 20-year-old gunman who attempted to assassinate former President Donald Trump at a campaign rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, was spotted on the roof 26 minutes before the shooting occurred.

    The FBI has confirmed that Crooks was seen by law enforcement members from the Allegheny County Police Department on the roof of a building with a clear sightline to the former president.

    Despite being alerted to his presence, authorities failed to confront him, allowing him to remain hidden for nearly 30 minutes before he opened fire on Trump and the crowd.

    The shocking new allegations have raised questions about how Crooks was able to evade detection and carry out the attack, which left Trump wounded and a member of the crowd dead.

    A sniper even took a picture of the suspect with a rangefinder and radioed to the command post before the Trump assassination attempt, CBS reports.

    Crooks was on local police and Secret Service's radar for nearly a half hour before the shooting attempt, but he kept "disappearing" before he climbed on the roof.

    "Crooks disappeared again and then came back a THIRD time with a backpack," CBS reported. "The snipers called in with information that he had a backpack and said he was walking towards the back of the building."

    It gets crazier. The New York Post reports local police were INSIDE the building that Thomas Crooks climbed on top of. The building was carved out of the Secret Service security perimeter and delegated to local police despite it being a "well-known high priority vulnerability.”

    Before the shooting, a police officer actually confronted Crooks, who had a rifle. The police officer scrambled back down the ladder, allowing the shooter to fire at least five rounds at the former president.

    No one had warned Trump.”

    I can see the relatives of the dead and injured suing bigly.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,394

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,426
    Leon said:

    I’m right. It’s the Ukes. Working with local cops

    Have you been on that South American jungle juice again?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,466
    edited July 16
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    The occasion for a reference
    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    This is true (and thank you for spotting it). Donations have to be reported but they don't have to be reported instantaneously and there is a time lag. We are still only twelve days and one working week after the election.
    More to the point 10000 members might have donated £400 each and there would be no reportable donations. Only the accounts give the full picture and, in the case of the SNP, I am not completely confident about even them.
    The reportable figure is even higher now - £11,000. The SNP could be rolling in small donations*

    *Do not bet on that
    Sign of a shite newspaper. Headline says X clickbaity, the last para (or wherever) says in very small print it's not true at all, in wording that is so ambiguous as you say that it's instantly read in the opposite sense by minds primed by the headline.
  • ajbajb Posts: 141
    If the Tories were still in power, presumably it would be attractive at this point for someone without a real chance to stand as a paper candidate, signalling that they would drop out of they reached the last 2 in exchange for a plum job. But it's not obvious to me that there is a worthwhile quid pro quo in opposition. Although maybe someone will do it just because they don't want to risk Braverman getting it
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,530
    Leon said:

    I’m right. It’s the Ukes. Working with local cops

    Nah, it's you.

    Obviously. All the evidence is there. Leon organised the attack.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,349
    It is definitely a deficiency in our system that as soon as a party loses power they no longer attract the bribes (or well meant donations) they used to receive. Let's face it, the Tories are not going to be making any national policies for a decade or more so they are no longer worth the powder and shot.

    The counterbalance is that those who want a lot of attention from a political party can buy a lot more sycophancy for their buck. But the market for that has got somewhat weaker as the numbers who have got grief and unwelcome attention from their donations increase. Things are looking tough for the Tories.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,200

    ‘Out-of-touch’ SNP plans debate on post-independence national anthem

    Ex-MP warns party will get ‘horsed’ at 2026 Holyrood elections unless it urgently changes


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/14/snp-plans-debate-on-national-anthem/

    @CorrectHorseBattery is planning a trip well in advance there
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,942
    Dethreaded. Bah.

    FPT:
    Foxy said:

    Look, just like the Trump = Hitler stuff from J D Vance, this was in the distant past, he’s learnt his lesson, right?

    Yesterday.

    Oh.

    https://x.com/adambienkov/status/1813084295780790773?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Events, events, events.

    A GOP-led US is clearly not going to be a reliable friend of the UK. It already advocates policies that will harm the UK's key defence, security and economic interests. Now it is openly hostile to our democratically elected government.

    It looks like we are going to be getting a lot closer to our European friends a lot quicker than many might have anticipated.

    It will be interesting to see how the big EPC meeting at Blenheim palace at the weekend goes down. Starmer hosts his first major gathering of European leaders.

    I think managing the relationship with a loose-cannon USA run by a President interested in nothing but himself will be a very major issue, though perhaps with the substance largely hidden, for Mr Starmer. And a tightrope to walk.

    We do have a lot of integration in place with European countries in defence, and have some history of creating insulation against Usonian self-interested knee jerks - for example I think Storm Shadow is ITAR-proof ("International Traffic in Arms Regulations" - USA mechanism of control).
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,397

    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    They do, I've not copied the full article, from the article.

    The reportable figure for a single donation for the last four weeks up to polling day is £11,180.
    I think some quarters dead people have donated more to the SNP, through legacies, than living people.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,528
    edited July 16
    Carnyx said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's as in large donations, though - the stats don't cover small donations. Party has generally had fewer of the former than Tories being bribed, sorry donated to, by big business.
    As I’ve pointed out before to a resounding barrage of silence, what did the Tories achieve with, what, £15m of donations from racist Frank Hester? The square root of a fraction above fckall it would appear.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,524

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It nearly always is, isn't it. Anyone who has regular contact with authorities appreciates that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,496
    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    They will show up in the accounts, Shirley?

    By the way, as someone in finance, I strongly recommend against transactions win £9,999 or similar. Short of phoning the police and arranging to have your assets seized....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,349
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    The occasion for a reference
    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    This is true (and thank you for spotting it). Donations have to be reported but they don't have to be reported instantaneously and there is a time lag. We are still only twelve days and one working week after the election.
    More to the point 10000 members might have donated £400 each and there would be no reportable donations. Only the accounts give the full picture and, in the case of the SNP, I am not completely confident about even them.
    The reportable figure is even higher now - £11,000. The SNP could be rolling in small donations*

    *Do not bet on that
    I think that is aggregated payments over a year. So if you were paying £250 a week you would get caught by that. Unless the Electoral Commission website is out of date it still seems to be £500 for individual donations:
    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/political-party-donations-and-loans-great-britain/which-donations-and-loans-do-you-need-report

    FWIW, the last accounts of the SNP had the central party as absolutely insolvent in that it could not pay the money it was due to pay to the branches. That doesn't stop it trading as long as the branches forbear from demanding payment of course but it was a hell of a position to enter a GE campaign from. I don't think I saw a single SNP poster anywhere in my travels.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,942
    edited July 16
    Pulpstar said:

    I hear the quiet man may be returning

    Let's hope the little shit isn't run down by a Killer Cyclist.

    The several he publicly and falsely labelled as such in Parliament, who had nothing to do with causing the collisions they were involved in, would have something of a motive. To be clear here, the other half of the ones on his little list *did* cause their collisions.

    Also to be clear, this is an OT observation, and I'm too busy to do debate :smile: .
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,496
    MattW said:

    Dethreaded. Bah.

    FPT:

    Foxy said:

    Look, just like the Trump = Hitler stuff from J D Vance, this was in the distant past, he’s learnt his lesson, right?

    Yesterday.

    Oh.

    https://x.com/adambienkov/status/1813084295780790773?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Events, events, events.

    A GOP-led US is clearly not going to be a reliable friend of the UK. It already advocates policies that will harm the UK's key defence, security and economic interests. Now it is openly hostile to our democratically elected government.

    It looks like we are going to be getting a lot closer to our European friends a lot quicker than many might have anticipated.

    It will be interesting to see how the big EPC meeting at Blenheim palace at the weekend goes down. Starmer hosts his first major gathering of European leaders.

    I think managing the relationship with a loose-cannon USA run by a President interested in nothing but himself will be a very major issue, though perhaps with the substance largely hidden, for Mr Starmer. And a tightrope to walk.

    We do have a lot of integration in place with European countries in defence, and have some history of creating insulation against Usonian self-interested knee jerks - for example I think Storm Shadow is ITAR-proof ("International Traffic in Arms Regulations" - USA mechanism of control).
    Though Storm Shadow goes the other way - all the partners have a certain level of veto over its use.

    I've heard that the Poles are very interested in (a) setting up factories on their own soil for the defence spending spree and (b) are trying to insist on complete control and ownership without strings on the resulting products.

    Funny that.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    MattW said:

    Dethreaded. Bah.

    FPT:

    Foxy said:

    Look, just like the Trump = Hitler stuff from J D Vance, this was in the distant past, he’s learnt his lesson, right?

    Yesterday.

    Oh.

    https://x.com/adambienkov/status/1813084295780790773?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Events, events, events.

    A GOP-led US is clearly not going to be a reliable friend of the UK. It already advocates policies that will harm the UK's key defence, security and economic interests. Now it is openly hostile to our democratically elected government.

    It looks like we are going to be getting a lot closer to our European friends a lot quicker than many might have anticipated.

    It will be interesting to see how the big EPC meeting at Blenheim palace at the weekend goes down. Starmer hosts his first major gathering of European leaders.

    I think managing the relationship with a loose-cannon USA run by a President interested in nothing but himself will be a very major issue, though perhaps with the substance largely hidden, for Mr Starmer. And a tightrope to walk.

    We do have a lot of integration in place with European countries in defence, and have some history of creating insulation against Usonian self-interested knee jerks - for example I think Storm Shadow is ITAR-proof ("International Traffic in Arms Regulations" - USA mechanism of control).

    The comments JD Vance made yesterday about the Labour government merely confirm that a GOP-led US administration cannot be considered a reliable ally. Should Trump win in November, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that we are going to be moving a lot closer to Europe over the coming years. Brexit-backers should be fervently hoping for the Democrats to pull off a highly unlikely comeback.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,349
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    The occasion for a reference
    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    This is true (and thank you for spotting it). Donations have to be reported but they don't have to be reported instantaneously and there is a time lag. We are still only twelve days and one working week after the election.
    More to the point 10000 members might have donated £400 each and there would be no reportable donations. Only the accounts give the full picture and, in the case of the SNP, I am not completely confident about even them.
    We've had this error before on PB. Disappointing.
    It's disappointing that the Times don't seem to understand the rules.

    But I don't think that there is any doubt that the SNP are not attracting the funding they did in Nicola's day and they have not been doing so for a while. Branchform must have a chilling effect on this. Why would anyone want to donate a substantial sum to a political party who are being investigated for misappropriation? There comes a point when this is simply unfair and in my personal view we are now past that.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,942
    Nigelb said:

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    I do, I do, I do.
    That's not enough to do ... Honey, Honey.

    You're too short.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,235
    DavidL said:

    It is definitely a deficiency in our system that as soon as a party loses power they no longer attract the bribes (or well meant donations) they used to receive. Let's face it, the Tories are not going to be making any national policies for a decade or more so they are no longer worth the powder and shot.

    The counterbalance is that those who want a lot of attention from a political party can buy a lot more sycophancy for their buck. But the market for that has got somewhat weaker as the numbers who have got grief and unwelcome attention from their donations increase. Things are looking tough for the Tories.

    But not, as I said, for many individual Tories.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,200
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It nearly always is, isn't it. Anyone who has regular contact with authorities appreciates that.
    It's boring, but it requires far less effort and competence for one thing. A conspiracy requires both and for everyone to keep their mouths shut forever.

    How likely is that?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,466

    DavidL said:

    It is definitely a deficiency in our system that as soon as a party loses power they no longer attract the bribes (or well meant donations) they used to receive. Let's face it, the Tories are not going to be making any national policies for a decade or more so they are no longer worth the powder and shot.

    The counterbalance is that those who want a lot of attention from a political party can buy a lot more sycophancy for their buck. But the market for that has got somewhat weaker as the numbers who have got grief and unwelcome attention from their donations increase. Things are looking tough for the Tories.

    But not, as I said, for many individual Tories.
    Though they may now be ex-Tories (in the sense that the party is now), of course.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,575
    It's the name of the game
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,108
    edited July 16

    ‘Out-of-touch’ SNP plans debate on post-independence national anthem

    Ex-MP warns party will get ‘horsed’ at 2026 Holyrood elections unless it urgently changes


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/14/snp-plans-debate-on-national-anthem/

    Moving on from anthems and other displacement activity, there is just one certainty for now. Scottish independence is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. It is at least decades away. This was not how it seemed once upon a time.

    For SNP politicos and members this poses a question. Some people want to devote their political lives to causes that can't happen. But not all do. The current situation seems to finish the relevant careers of ambitious SNPs who could have looked to being the group that got victory.

    Do they stay and vegetate (PC), stay and really fight (SF), go and do good works (Rory, Portillo, Miliband) or join a mainstream party?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,942

    MattW said:

    Dethreaded. Bah.

    FPT:

    Foxy said:

    Look, just like the Trump = Hitler stuff from J D Vance, this was in the distant past, he’s learnt his lesson, right?

    Yesterday.

    Oh.

    https://x.com/adambienkov/status/1813084295780790773?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Events, events, events.

    A GOP-led US is clearly not going to be a reliable friend of the UK. It already advocates policies that will harm the UK's key defence, security and economic interests. Now it is openly hostile to our democratically elected government.

    It looks like we are going to be getting a lot closer to our European friends a lot quicker than many might have anticipated.

    It will be interesting to see how the big EPC meeting at Blenheim palace at the weekend goes down. Starmer hosts his first major gathering of European leaders.

    I think managing the relationship with a loose-cannon USA run by a President interested in nothing but himself will be a very major issue, though perhaps with the substance largely hidden, for Mr Starmer. And a tightrope to walk.

    We do have a lot of integration in place with European countries in defence, and have some history of creating insulation against Usonian self-interested knee jerks - for example I think Storm Shadow is ITAR-proof ("International Traffic in Arms Regulations" - USA mechanism of control).

    The comments JD Vance made yesterday about the Labour government merely confirm that a GOP-led US administration cannot be considered a reliable ally. Should Trump win in November, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that we are going to be moving a lot closer to Europe over the coming years. Brexit-backers should be fervently hoping for the Democrats to pull off a highly unlikely comeback.

    Strategically I'm more concerned by the threat to things deeper in the relationship - such as Trump's belief that all confidential and secret information will be his personal property, which can be sold to the highest bidder, given away, or moved to insecure settings on his personal whim. We have already seen that for example when he was showing classified material to associates for amusement or to the Australian billionaire Anthony Pratt.

    His corrupt judges and Supreme Court judges will back him as we already see.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 578
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Isn’t another likely explanation that the Secret Service had given up warning Trump about the security risks at his rallies because he always ignores them? His reaction after being shot shows that he’s not willing to listen to security advice if it gets in the way of his political image. It’s still a massive failure of course but if you’ve got into the mindset that all of these rallies are dangerous and the principle doesn’t care then it’s easy to see how you might be less thorough.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,942

    MattW said:

    Dethreaded. Bah.

    FPT:

    Foxy said:

    Look, just like the Trump = Hitler stuff from J D Vance, this was in the distant past, he’s learnt his lesson, right?

    Yesterday.

    Oh.

    https://x.com/adambienkov/status/1813084295780790773?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Events, events, events.

    A GOP-led US is clearly not going to be a reliable friend of the UK. It already advocates policies that will harm the UK's key defence, security and economic interests. Now it is openly hostile to our democratically elected government.

    It looks like we are going to be getting a lot closer to our European friends a lot quicker than many might have anticipated.

    It will be interesting to see how the big EPC meeting at Blenheim palace at the weekend goes down. Starmer hosts his first major gathering of European leaders.

    I think managing the relationship with a loose-cannon USA run by a President interested in nothing but himself will be a very major issue, though perhaps with the substance largely hidden, for Mr Starmer. And a tightrope to walk.

    We do have a lot of integration in place with European countries in defence, and have some history of creating insulation against Usonian self-interested knee jerks - for example I think Storm Shadow is ITAR-proof ("International Traffic in Arms Regulations" - USA mechanism of control).
    Though Storm Shadow goes the other way - all the partners have a certain level of veto over its use.

    I've heard that the Poles are very interested in (a) setting up factories on their own soil for the defence spending spree and (b) are trying to insist on complete control and ownership without strings on the resulting products.

    Funny that.
    There was at least one case where the USA prevented Europeans selling particular weapons to iirc the MIddle East, then turned around and sold the same weapons themselves to the same party.

    Plus the strangely delayed scheduling of European produced missile integration into F35 where an American made competitor exists.

    But those are compromises of being in bed with an elephant, and I agree need addressing further.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,235

    MattW said:

    Dethreaded. Bah.

    FPT:

    Foxy said:

    Look, just like the Trump = Hitler stuff from J D Vance, this was in the distant past, he’s learnt his lesson, right?

    Yesterday.

    Oh.

    https://x.com/adambienkov/status/1813084295780790773?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Events, events, events.

    A GOP-led US is clearly not going to be a reliable friend of the UK. It already advocates policies that will harm the UK's key defence, security and economic interests. Now it is openly hostile to our democratically elected government.

    It looks like we are going to be getting a lot closer to our European friends a lot quicker than many might have anticipated.

    It will be interesting to see how the big EPC meeting at Blenheim palace at the weekend goes down. Starmer hosts his first major gathering of European leaders.

    I think managing the relationship with a loose-cannon USA run by a President interested in nothing but himself will be a very major issue, though perhaps with the substance largely hidden, for Mr Starmer. And a tightrope to walk.

    We do have a lot of integration in place with European countries in defence, and have some history of creating insulation against Usonian self-interested knee jerks - for example I think Storm Shadow is ITAR-proof ("International Traffic in Arms Regulations" - USA mechanism of control).

    The comments JD Vance made yesterday about the Labour government merely confirm that a GOP-led US administration cannot be considered a reliable ally. Should Trump win in November, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that we are going to be moving a lot closer to Europe over the coming years. Brexit-backers should be fervently hoping for the Democrats to pull off a highly unlikely comeback.

    The problem being that much of Europe isn't a reliable ally either.

    Ultimately much of the required reliance will need to be self-reliance.

    Which means spending more on defence and more on industrial infrastructure.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_shadow_factories
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,529
    Stereodog said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Isn’t another likely explanation that the Secret Service had given up warning Trump about the security risks at his rallies because he always ignores them? His reaction after being shot shows that he’s not willing to listen to security advice if it gets in the way of his political image. It’s still a massive failure of course but if you’ve got into the mindset that all of these rallies are dangerous and the principle doesn’t care then it’s easy to see how you might be less thorough.
    Unlikely.

    Sounds like the layers of security (inner/mid/outer) weren't talking to each other as it was a multi-agency effort.

    Well done again to the guy who slotted the shooter as it takes a lot of presence and training to identify, acquire and then shoot the guy as it appears he (the SS agent) was looking for a threat further out than this guy so had to make an immediate adjustment to himself and the way he used his weapon.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,548
    Good morning, everyone.

    Hadn't heard that crackers accusation from Trump's VP pick until now.

    Ironic, given Labour lost half a dozen seats to Gaza-fixated types.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,553
    Leon said:

    Try and wrap your head around this


    Thomas Matthew Crooks, the 20-year-old gunman who attempted to assassinate former President Donald Trump at a campaign rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, was spotted on the roof 26 minutes before the shooting occurred.

    The FBI has confirmed that Crooks was seen by law enforcement members from the Allegheny County Police Department on the roof of a building with a clear sightline to the former president.

    Despite being alerted to his presence, authorities failed to confront him, allowing him to remain hidden for nearly 30 minutes before he opened fire on Trump and the crowd.

    The shocking new allegations have raised questions about how Crooks was able to evade detection and carry out the attack, which left Trump wounded and a member of the crowd dead.

    A sniper even took a picture of the suspect with a rangefinder and radioed to the command post before the Trump assassination attempt, CBS reports.

    Crooks was on local police and Secret Service's radar for nearly a half hour before the shooting attempt, but he kept "disappearing" before he climbed on the roof.

    "Crooks disappeared again and then came back a THIRD time with a backpack," CBS reported. "The snipers called in with information that he had a backpack and said he was walking towards the back of the building."

    It gets crazier. The New York Post reports local police were INSIDE the building that Thomas Crooks climbed on top of. The building was carved out of the Secret Service security perimeter and delegated to local police despite it being a "well-known high priority vulnerability.”

    Before the shooting, a police officer actually confronted Crooks, who had a rifle. The police officer scrambled back down the ladder, allowing the shooter to fire at least five rounds at the former president.

    No one had warned Trump.”

    The first sentence of that doesn't seem to fit with the rest? Was he on the roof for half an hour or was he milling around looking suspicious for half an hour?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,108

    MattW said:

    Dethreaded. Bah.

    FPT:

    Foxy said:

    Look, just like the Trump = Hitler stuff from J D Vance, this was in the distant past, he’s learnt his lesson, right?

    Yesterday.

    Oh.

    https://x.com/adambienkov/status/1813084295780790773?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Events, events, events.

    A GOP-led US is clearly not going to be a reliable friend of the UK. It already advocates policies that will harm the UK's key defence, security and economic interests. Now it is openly hostile to our democratically elected government.

    It looks like we are going to be getting a lot closer to our European friends a lot quicker than many might have anticipated.

    It will be interesting to see how the big EPC meeting at Blenheim palace at the weekend goes down. Starmer hosts his first major gathering of European leaders.

    I think managing the relationship with a loose-cannon USA run by a President interested in nothing but himself will be a very major issue, though perhaps with the substance largely hidden, for Mr Starmer. And a tightrope to walk.

    We do have a lot of integration in place with European countries in defence, and have some history of creating insulation against Usonian self-interested knee jerks - for example I think Storm Shadow is ITAR-proof ("International Traffic in Arms Regulations" - USA mechanism of control).

    The comments JD Vance made yesterday about the Labour government merely confirm that a GOP-led US administration cannot be considered a reliable ally. Should Trump win in November, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that we are going to be moving a lot closer to Europe over the coming years. Brexit-backers should be fervently hoping for the Democrats to pull off a highly unlikely comeback.

    The fact that the EU was and is an attempt at ever closer union, ie state formation, is undeniable since the Euro. The error has always been that this has not considered the defence aspect. NATO is our only serious bulwark against invasion, compared with which the EU is a local trade association, and to this day as Putin hammers at its gates, the EU has neutral members.

    The UK is, among a rather poor collection, the nuclear state with the most stable government and political system at this moment. Expect this to become more and more interesting to non-nuclear European countries.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,545
    algarkirk said:

    ‘Out-of-touch’ SNP plans debate on post-independence national anthem

    Ex-MP warns party will get ‘horsed’ at 2026 Holyrood elections unless it urgently changes


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/14/snp-plans-debate-on-national-anthem/

    Moving on from anthems and other displacement activity, there is just one certainty for now. Scottish independence is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. It is at least decades away. This was not how it seemed once upon a time.

    For SNP politicos and members this poses a question. Some people want to devote their political lives to causes that can't happen. But not all do. The current situation seems to finish the relevant careers of ambitious SNPs who could have looked to being the group that got victory.

    Do they stay and vegetate (PC), stay and really fight (SF), go and do good works (Rory, Portillo, Miliband) or join a mainstream party?
    If you are Scottish I suspect the natural home for new politicians for the next 20 years is Labour
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,235

    Leon said:

    Try and wrap your head around this


    Thomas Matthew Crooks, the 20-year-old gunman who attempted to assassinate former President Donald Trump at a campaign rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, was spotted on the roof 26 minutes before the shooting occurred.

    The FBI has confirmed that Crooks was seen by law enforcement members from the Allegheny County Police Department on the roof of a building with a clear sightline to the former president.

    Despite being alerted to his presence, authorities failed to confront him, allowing him to remain hidden for nearly 30 minutes before he opened fire on Trump and the crowd.

    The shocking new allegations have raised questions about how Crooks was able to evade detection and carry out the attack, which left Trump wounded and a member of the crowd dead.

    A sniper even took a picture of the suspect with a rangefinder and radioed to the command post before the Trump assassination attempt, CBS reports.

    Crooks was on local police and Secret Service's radar for nearly a half hour before the shooting attempt, but he kept "disappearing" before he climbed on the roof.

    "Crooks disappeared again and then came back a THIRD time with a backpack," CBS reported. "The snipers called in with information that he had a backpack and said he was walking towards the back of the building."

    It gets crazier. The New York Post reports local police were INSIDE the building that Thomas Crooks climbed on top of. The building was carved out of the Secret Service security perimeter and delegated to local police despite it being a "well-known high priority vulnerability.”

    Before the shooting, a police officer actually confronted Crooks, who had a rifle. The police officer scrambled back down the ladder, allowing the shooter to fire at least five rounds at the former president.

    No one had warned Trump.”

    The first sentence of that doesn't seem to fit with the rest? Was he on the roof for half an hour or was he milling around looking suspicious for half an hour?
    He was doing whatever was required to fit into the latest conspiracy theory.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,548
    Looking ahead to the King's Speech, this struck me as odd:
    "A separate bill has been promised to extend the right to make equal pay claims under the Equality Act to ethnic minority workers and disabled people."

    I was pretty sure that equal pay already applied to not just both sexes, but races as well. Was that not the case?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51y7pqy1v3o
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,857

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    Past their prime group that can’t stand the sight of each other?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,427

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It’s almost always so.

    It’s a massive cockup not to have delayed the event though, if they knew there was someone suspicious with a rangefinder and a packback in the close vicinity of the venue and only 150yds from the stage.

    The inquiry is going to be all the different groups of police blaming each other. Apparently six different LEAs involved, plus local private security. The FBI will be pleased to be the lead agency running the investigation, that way they’re least likely to have to take any of the blame.

    One can well imagine someone of means stepping forward to fund a class action lawsuit on behalf of the victims, although the fundraisers for them are already well into the millions of dollars.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,108
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    ‘Out-of-touch’ SNP plans debate on post-independence national anthem

    Ex-MP warns party will get ‘horsed’ at 2026 Holyrood elections unless it urgently changes


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/14/snp-plans-debate-on-national-anthem/

    Moving on from anthems and other displacement activity, there is just one certainty for now. Scottish independence is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. It is at least decades away. This was not how it seemed once upon a time.

    For SNP politicos and members this poses a question. Some people want to devote their political lives to causes that can't happen. But not all do. The current situation seems to finish the relevant careers of ambitious SNPs who could have looked to being the group that got victory.

    Do they stay and vegetate (PC), stay and really fight (SF), go and do good works (Rory, Portillo, Miliband) or join a mainstream party?
    If you are Scottish I suspect the natural home for new politicians for the next 20 years is Labour
    Good point. But OTOH for anyone with serious political ambitions with the good fortune to be aged say 15-35 this would be a perfect moment to quietly join and move up the Tory ranks. Someone will have to be the cabinet in 2040, and (see 1997 and after) the Tories are the most likely option if it isn't Labour. Labour will already be putting up the 'No Vacancies' sign for very able and ambitious young people.

    A side bet would be the LDs replacing the Tories as the second party, but psephology makes it hard. LD never (almost) contests with Labour for first and second place.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,213

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,548

    Good morning, everyone.

    Hadn't heard that crackers accusation from Trump's VP pick until now.

    Ironic, given Labour lost half a dozen seats to Gaza-fixated types.

    Ironically, Vance was talking in the context of nuclear proliferation which is going to be on steroids after Trump is elected. I cannot see Poland not trying very hard to develop nukes when/if US abandons europe to its fate with Russia. Likewise Baltics.

    The lesson from Ukraine is don't give up your nuke weapons.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,987

    Good morning, everyone.

    Hadn't heard that crackers accusation from Trump's VP pick until now.

    Ironic, given Labour lost half a dozen seats to Gaza-fixated types.

    Ironically, Vance was talking in the context of nuclear proliferation which is going to be on steroids after Trump is elected. I cannot see Poland not trying very hard to develop nukes when/if US abandons europe to its fate with Russia. Likewise Baltics.

    The lesson from Ukraine is don't give up your nuke weapons.
    Indeed. I think it must be odds on that we see the use of nuclear weapons in one form or another within five years.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,548
    Cicero said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Hadn't heard that crackers accusation from Trump's VP pick until now.

    Ironic, given Labour lost half a dozen seats to Gaza-fixated types.

    Ironically, Vance was talking in the context of nuclear proliferation which is going to be on steroids after Trump is elected. I cannot see Poland not trying very hard to develop nukes when/if US abandons europe to its fate with Russia. Likewise Baltics.

    The lesson from Ukraine is don't give up your nuke weapons.
    Indeed. I think it must be odds on that we see the use of nuclear weapons in one form or another within five years.
    Bleak. And sadly I think you are right. If we are 'lucky' it will be battlefield nukes only.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,427

    Eabhal said:

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

    SNP received no private donations in week before election

    Party is also struggling with falling membership, which is believed to be down to half of its 2019 peak of 125,000


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-received-no-private-donations-in-week-before-election-6b6gfqmh9

    That's poor from the Times. That's reportable donations - the headline is wrong, and they don't even make a decent attempt to clarify in the article.

    Every adult in Scotland could have donated £10,000 to the SNP in the final week and you wouldn't know.
    They do, I've not copied the full article, from the article.

    The reportable figure for a single donation for the last four weeks up to polling day is £11,180.
    I think some quarters dead people have donated more to the SNP, through legacies, than living people.
    Wasn’t there a couple who won £100m on the lottery and gave a substantial percentage to the SNP or various independence campaigns?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,987
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    ‘Out-of-touch’ SNP plans debate on post-independence national anthem

    Ex-MP warns party will get ‘horsed’ at 2026 Holyrood elections unless it urgently changes


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/14/snp-plans-debate-on-national-anthem/

    Moving on from anthems and other displacement activity, there is just one certainty for now. Scottish independence is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. It is at least decades away. This was not how it seemed once upon a time.

    For SNP politicos and members this poses a question. Some people want to devote their political lives to causes that can't happen. But not all do. The current situation seems to finish the relevant careers of ambitious SNPs who could have looked to being the group that got victory.

    Do they stay and vegetate (PC), stay and really fight (SF), go and do good works (Rory, Portillo, Miliband) or join a mainstream party?
    If you are Scottish I suspect the natural home for new politicians for the next 20 years is Labour
    Good point. But OTOH for anyone with serious political ambitions with the good fortune to be aged say 15-35 this would be a perfect moment to quietly join and move up the Tory ranks. Someone will have to be the cabinet in 2040, and (see 1997 and after) the Tories are the most likely option if it isn't Labour. Labour will already be putting up the 'No Vacancies' sign for very able and ambitious young people.

    A side bet would be the LDs replacing the Tories as the second party, but psephology makes it hard. LD never (almost) contests with Labour for first and second place.
    On the other hand, the Tories are in such a mess and the Lib Dems are increasingly look professional and well funded. Not to mention being on the moderate capitalist side of the fence, which is where a very large number of people identify themselves.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,548
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    Be bloody ironic if gun worshipping MAGA types start complaining about a guy being allowed to wander around with a gun.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,427

    Can anyone spot the subtle Abba reference?

    Past their prime group that can’t stand the sight of each other?
    Wouldn’t that be a subtle Fleetwood Mac reference?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,130

    The Conservatives might have no money one but lots of Conservatives do.

    Perhaps the likes of Cameron, Osborne, May, Boris and Truss might donate some of the many millions they've received from 'giving speeches' and pimping themselves out to oligarchs since leaving office.

    Mrs Sunak might be able to spare a few bob too.
    Can she though? Does Mrs S have £800 million or just a big block of shares that she can't sell without triggering a run on the family firm?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,524

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It nearly always is, isn't it. Anyone who has regular contact with authorities appreciates that.
    It's boring, but it requires far less effort and competence for one thing. A conspiracy requires both and for everyone to keep their mouths shut forever.

    How likely is that?
    I'm surprised @leon wasn't posting this last night, because it was all over the TV and he normally sees this stuff before the rest of us. Lots of film of him on the roof and people shouting and complaining about it and getting the police who bumbled. But to be honest that is what I would have expected. Authorities are good at stuff in a narrow range that they expect and are trained for. As soon as it goes outside of what they expect or are trained for, and things happen, things can go wrong. The poor guy was the local plod. He reacted slowly. It is what I would have expected. Maybe a fault of planning that they didn't have specialists there, but stuff happens.

    As you say conspiracies are hard because they are far far too complex to work and it is impossible to ensure everyone keeps quiet afterwards. Real life is far too messy.

    @leon commented the other day about him having stuff in his car that implied he must have had an escape plan and that was impossible and that therefore he was probably set up (rather than being a lone loony). Someone else responded that it was more likely he was 'a fucking idiot'. The latter is more credible.

    I.E. Cockup not conspiracy.

    And the problem with calling all cockups conspiracies is that when there is a real conspiracy we miss it because we have cried wolf so many times.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,427

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    Be bloody ironic if gun worshipping MAGA types start complaining about a guy being allowed to wander around with a gun.
    None of them object to the guns, so long as they are used safely and sensibly, and not aimed at people. Especially not at their favourite politician.

    It’s a very weird and very American culture. There was discussion earlier about the local high school having a gun club and a rifle range. The kids in place like PA go hunting with their fathers at the weekend.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,942

    Looking ahead to the King's Speech, this struck me as odd:
    "A separate bill has been promised to extend the right to make equal pay claims under the Equality Act to ethnic minority workers and disabled people."

    I was pretty sure that equal pay already applied to not just both sexes, but races as well. Was that not the case?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51y7pqy1v3o

    AIUI the Equality Act applies, but the Equal Pay Act does not.

    The later engages things like benchmarking - so dinner ladies can compare themselves to warehouse operators, for example. That cannot be applied for race and disabled discrimination under the A, which is much more individually focused for redress.

    So it is bringing it into line. An average disabled person would be 15-20% down on the non-disabled person, which for a woman would be on top of the "woman discount".

    For a comparison. one of my constant problems with anti-wheelchair barriers blocking footpaths is that only an individual disabled person subject to discrimination (eg kept out of the public footpath) by *that* barrier can take legal action under EA2010, and must do it personally. So the difficult process can be used to avoid addressing the issue.

    That's as understand it. Note that I personally have certain qualms about how benchmarking works, but that is what I think they are doing.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,254
    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    Be bloody ironic if gun worshipping MAGA types start complaining about a guy being allowed to wander around with a gun.
    None of them object to the guns, so long as they are used safely and sensibly, and not aimed at people. Especially not at their favourite politician.

    It’s a very weird and very American culture. There was discussion earlier about the local high school having a gun club and a rifle range. The kids in place like PA go hunting with their fathers at the weekend.
    There is nothing weird about the culture. The weirdness is the lock the NRA has on the Nation.

    Most Americans would welcome stricter gun control. The NRA opposes it. It's no contest.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,213
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It nearly always is, isn't it. Anyone who has regular contact with authorities appreciates that.
    It's boring, but it requires far less effort and competence for one thing. A conspiracy requires both and for everyone to keep their mouths shut forever.

    How likely is that?
    I'm surprised @leon wasn't posting this last night, because it was all over the TV and he normally sees this stuff before the rest of us. Lots of film of him on the roof and people shouting and complaining about it and getting the police who bumbled. But to be honest that is what I would have expected. Authorities are good at stuff in a narrow range that they expect and are trained for. As soon as it goes outside of what they expect or are trained for, and things happen, things can go wrong. The poor guy was the local plod. He reacted slowly. It is what I would have expected. Maybe a fault of planning that they didn't have specialists there, but stuff happens.

    As you say conspiracies are hard because they are far far too complex to work and it is impossible to ensure everyone keeps quiet afterwards. Real life is far too messy.

    @leon commented the other day about him having stuff in his car that implied he must have had an escape plan and that was impossible and that therefore he was probably set up (rather than being a lone loony). Someone else responded that it was more likely he was 'a fucking idiot'. The latter is more credible.

    I.E. Cockup not conspiracy.

    And the problem with calling all cockups conspiracies is that when there is a real conspiracy we miss it because we have cried wolf so many times.

    Or: He originally intended a mass shooting of rally attendees, perhaps from his car which he intended to booby trap. Then when he arrives to set up his vantage point over the car park he realises that the roof is a) an ideal vantage point to take a shot at Trump out of sight of the USSS sniper teams & b) local plod have failed to secure it.

    If you’re intent on going out in a way that maximises your infamy then which option are you going to pick?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,130
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    ‘Out-of-touch’ SNP plans debate on post-independence national anthem

    Ex-MP warns party will get ‘horsed’ at 2026 Holyrood elections unless it urgently changes


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/14/snp-plans-debate-on-national-anthem/

    Moving on from anthems and other displacement activity, there is just one certainty for now. Scottish independence is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. It is at least decades away. This was not how it seemed once upon a time.

    For SNP politicos and members this poses a question. Some people want to devote their political lives to causes that can't happen. But not all do. The current situation seems to finish the relevant careers of ambitious SNPs who could have looked to being the group that got victory.

    Do they stay and vegetate (PC), stay and really fight (SF), go and do good works (Rory, Portillo, Miliband) or join a mainstream party?
    If you are Scottish I suspect the natural home for new politicians for the next 20 years is Labour
    Up to a point but there is also the question of where ambitious young Scots should be: Holyrood or Westminster, and the answer may be different for SNP, SLab and SCon types; it is probably only Labour that can be in power in both legislatures.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,942
    Phil said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It nearly always is, isn't it. Anyone who has regular contact with authorities appreciates that.
    It's boring, but it requires far less effort and competence for one thing. A conspiracy requires both and for everyone to keep their mouths shut forever.

    How likely is that?
    I'm surprised @leon wasn't posting this last night, because it was all over the TV and he normally sees this stuff before the rest of us. Lots of film of him on the roof and people shouting and complaining about it and getting the police who bumbled. But to be honest that is what I would have expected. Authorities are good at stuff in a narrow range that they expect and are trained for. As soon as it goes outside of what they expect or are trained for, and things happen, things can go wrong. The poor guy was the local plod. He reacted slowly. It is what I would have expected. Maybe a fault of planning that they didn't have specialists there, but stuff happens.

    As you say conspiracies are hard because they are far far too complex to work and it is impossible to ensure everyone keeps quiet afterwards. Real life is far too messy.

    @leon commented the other day about him having stuff in his car that implied he must have had an escape plan and that was impossible and that therefore he was probably set up (rather than being a lone loony). Someone else responded that it was more likely he was 'a fucking idiot'. The latter is more credible.

    I.E. Cockup not conspiracy.

    And the problem with calling all cockups conspiracies is that when there is a real conspiracy we miss it because we have cried wolf so many times.

    Or: He originally intended a mass shooting of rally attendees, perhaps from his car which he intended to booby trap. Then when he arrives to set up his vantage point over the car park he realises that the roof is a) an ideal vantage point to take a shot at Trump out of sight of the USSS sniper teams & b) local plod have failed to secure it.

    If you’re intent on going out in a way that maximises your infamy then which option are you going to pick?
    It didn't turn out to be very out of sight of USSS sniper teams !
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,524
    edited July 16
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,427

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It’s almost always so.

    It’s a massive cockup not to have delayed the event though, if they knew there was someone suspicious with a rangefinder and a packback in the close vicinity of the venue and only 150yds from the stage.

    The inquiry is going to be all the different groups of police blaming each other. Apparently six different LEAs involved, plus local private security. The FBI will be pleased to be the lead agency running the investigation, that way they’re least likely to have to take any of the blame.

    One can well imagine someone of means stepping forward to fund a class action lawsuit on behalf of the victims, although the fundraisers for them are already well into the millions of dollars.
    Weird-looking people with assault rifles are the core Trump demographic. You can't shut down a whole event just because you see one of them, it would be like evacuating the LibDem Party Conference if you saw someone wearing sandals.
    Ha ha I’ll give you that.

    In the early days of Trump rallies, they actually had to keep making a point of telling everyone to leave their guns at home, as everyone gets searched on the way in (by local security, supervised by the USSS).

    The problem here, was that the area where the shooter was seen was outside the official perimeter, but still close enough to get a good view, so there were a lot of people hanging around that area rather than actually going in to the event.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,426
    edited July 16
    Did they ever get to the bottom of the motivation behind that guy who conducted a mass shooting of attendees at the music festival in Las Vegas from 7-8 years ago? That was a really odd one.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,524
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It’s almost always so.

    It’s a massive cockup not to have delayed the event though, if they knew there was someone suspicious with a rangefinder and a packback in the close vicinity of the venue and only 150yds from the stage.

    The inquiry is going to be all the different groups of police blaming each other. Apparently six different LEAs involved, plus local private security. The FBI will be pleased to be the lead agency running the investigation, that way they’re least likely to have to take any of the blame.

    One can well imagine someone of means stepping forward to fund a class action lawsuit on behalf of the victims, although the fundraisers for them are already well into the millions of dollars.
    Weird-looking people with assault rifles are the core Trump demographic. You can't shut down a whole event just because you see one of them, it would be like evacuating the LibDem Party Conference if you saw someone wearing sandals.
    Ha ha I’ll give you that.

    In the early days of Trump rallies, they actually had to keep making a point of telling everyone to leave their guns at home, as everyone gets searched on the way in (by local security, supervised by the USSS).

    The problem here, was that the area where the shooter was seen was outside the official perimeter, but still close enough to get a good view, so there were a lot of people hanging around that area rather than actually going in to the event.
    Lying on the roof of the building I think was the big give away which was spotted by dozens well in advance and is on film.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,942

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    Be bloody ironic if gun worshipping MAGA types start complaining about a guy being allowed to wander around with a gun.
    None of them object to the guns, so long as they are used safely and sensibly, and not aimed at people. Especially not at their favourite politician.

    It’s a very weird and very American culture. There was discussion earlier about the local high school having a gun club and a rifle range. The kids in place like PA go hunting with their fathers at the weekend.
    There is nothing weird about the culture. The weirdness is the lock the NRA has on the Nation.

    Most Americans would welcome stricter gun control. The NRA opposes it. It's no contest.
    How strong is that now?

    They have been under the legal cosh for corruption, fraud etc for some time, some of it lead by New York DA Letitia James (another reason Trumpists dislike her), and I am not sure what is still standing of the NRA.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,213
    MattW said:

    Phil said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It nearly always is, isn't it. Anyone who has regular contact with authorities appreciates that.
    It's boring, but it requires far less effort and competence for one thing. A conspiracy requires both and for everyone to keep their mouths shut forever.

    How likely is that?
    I'm surprised @leon wasn't posting this last night, because it was all over the TV and he normally sees this stuff before the rest of us. Lots of film of him on the roof and people shouting and complaining about it and getting the police who bumbled. But to be honest that is what I would have expected. Authorities are good at stuff in a narrow range that they expect and are trained for. As soon as it goes outside of what they expect or are trained for, and things happen, things can go wrong. The poor guy was the local plod. He reacted slowly. It is what I would have expected. Maybe a fault of planning that they didn't have specialists there, but stuff happens.

    As you say conspiracies are hard because they are far far too complex to work and it is impossible to ensure everyone keeps quiet afterwards. Real life is far too messy.

    @leon commented the other day about him having stuff in his car that implied he must have had an escape plan and that was impossible and that therefore he was probably set up (rather than being a lone loony). Someone else responded that it was more likely he was 'a fucking idiot'. The latter is more credible.

    I.E. Cockup not conspiracy.

    And the problem with calling all cockups conspiracies is that when there is a real conspiracy we miss it because we have cried wolf so many times.

    Or: He originally intended a mass shooting of rally attendees, perhaps from his car which he intended to booby trap. Then when he arrives to set up his vantage point over the car park he realises that the roof is a) an ideal vantage point to take a shot at Trump out of sight of the USSS sniper teams & b) local plod have failed to secure it.

    If you’re intent on going out in a way that maximises your infamy then which option are you going to pick?
    It didn't turn out to be very out of sight of USSS sniper teams !
    As I understand it, he was out of sight of the USSS sniper teams until he put himself over the ridgeline of the roof to make the shot - the roof is very slightly sloped downwards away from the point where Trump was standing.

    Had he taken a single shot & immediately backed off he would might even still be alive, although there’s a decent chance the local PD would have shot him regardless.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,130
    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    True, but local police would be expecting snipers on various rooftops, from both the Secret Service and the police, and perhaps this explains a lack of concern.

    Or the police might have reported the crowd suspicions back to the station and left it to them to call someone in Washington. Officer Dibble would not have a radio hotline to the Secret Service. In Britain a common feature of reports into terrorist outrages and other large incidents is the difficulty of inter-agency communication. Each service is on its own network with its own reporting structure, following its own protocols. I expect it is the same there.
This discussion has been closed.