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Money, money, money – politicalbetting.com

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  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,033
    Pulpstar said:

    Whoever follows Southgate has a tough gig. World cup 2026 has what looks like will be trivially easy group stages but then there are 5 rounds of matches to sort the winner. I'm not sure the draw will be as kind as it was at the Euros for us - and other nations ex Spain and Argentina are bound to get out of their relative recent slumps.

    Not been spotted by the mainstream media yet, but our qualification is far from certain with our relegation in the Nations League.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,380

    He should resign.

    Scotland’s The National apologises for ‘crossing a line’ in front page insulting England

    Editor says sorry for ‘leaning into lazy stereotypes’ with widely criticised headline portraying Rodri booting red-faced English fat man


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/07/15/scotland-the-national-apologise-headline-insulting-england/

    I had a go at that on the night of the game. A lot of Scots seem to think that this is "humour". It just isn't. A few Scots are just rabidly anti-English but they are very much in the minority. I was supporting England throughout which, on reflection, probably didn't improve their chances.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,551
    Leon said:


    President Biden: “if Russian tanks and troops cross the Ukraine border, there will no longer be a Nordstream 2. We will bring an end to it”

    @bondegezou: “Russia blew up Nordstream!”

    @bondegezou, you have no idea how much joy I get from your crushing stupidity, day after day. Please never change

    Since you've not answered my question, I'll assume one of your books did provide an inspiration for Breivik.

    In which case, you should understand the danger of conspiracy theories, and how they can attract nutcases. And occasionally nutcases will do bad stuff.

    Hence why I treat your 'Ukraine was behind the shooting' shit as beneath contempt. There is zero evidence of it, but that sort of thing could lead to lots of deaths if it gains currency.

    As an aside, it's interesting that you automatically pick Ukraine as the bad actor, given Russia's got a track record of knocking off people it doesn't like abroad, and had just been accused of plotting to assassinate the head of one of Germany's defence manufacturers:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/11/politics/us-germany-foiled-russian-assassination-plot/index.html

    But you choose Ukraine. Odd that.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,127
    Econew said:

    Southgate resigns.

    Has Gething ?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,415
    Pulpstar said:

    Whoever follows Southgate has a tough gig. World cup 2026 has what looks like will be trivially easy group stages but then there are 5 rounds of matches to sort the winner. I'm not sure the draw will be as kind as it was at the Euros for us - and other nations ex Spain and Argentina are bound to get out of their relative recent slumps.

    Who's in the frame for replacement, do we know?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,551

    Econew said:

    Southgate resigns.

    Has Gething ?
    They should swap jobs... ;)

    A Welshman in charge of the England football team, and an Englishman in charge of Wales...
  • eekeek Posts: 27,570
    A suggestion for the building of a New Town (well City to be blunt) where the East Coast Mainline crosses the new East-West Rail

    https://ukdayone.org/briefings/new-towns-for-a-new-britain-where-britain-s-next-new-town-should-be
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,149
    Gething quits. Inevitable really.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,525

    Leon said:


    President Biden: “if Russian tanks and troops cross the Ukraine border, there will no longer be a Nordstream 2. We will bring an end to it”

    @bondegezou: “Russia blew up Nordstream!”

    @bondegezou, you have no idea how much joy I get from your crushing stupidity, day after day. Please never change

    Since you've not answered my question, I'll assume one of your books did provide an inspiration for Breivik.

    In which case, you should understand the danger of conspiracy theories, and how they can attract nutcases. And occasionally nutcases will do bad stuff.

    Hence why I treat your 'Ukraine was behind the shooting' shit as beneath contempt. There is zero evidence of it, but that sort of thing could lead to lots of deaths if it gains currency.

    As an aside, it's interesting that you automatically pick Ukraine as the bad actor, given Russia's got a track record of knocking off people it doesn't like abroad, and had just been accused of plotting to assassinate the head of one of Germany's defence manufacturers:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/11/politics/us-germany-foiled-russian-assassination-plot/index.html

    But you choose Ukraine. Odd that.
    The book thing was an obvious fucking joke, even at the time, you galactic moron
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,429
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Good to see a defence review as a priority for the new Government.

    We spend £66 billion on defence and there needs to be clarity we are getting if not value for money then a commitment money isn't being wasted. I know there have been huge issues with, for example, defence procurement.

    The review also needs to see where additional funding should be allocated (cyber security?) and a realistic evaluation of our defence commitments which may involve the mercy killing of more than one sacred cow.

    That said, I do sometimes think the "threat" is over stated and that helps the lobbying of the military-industrial complex. Given the Russian Army hasn't so far reached Kharkiv, I'm far from convinced they could reach Paris - this isn't the 100 armoured division behemoth two hours drive from the Rhine of yesteryear (and that was considerbaly overstated to the benefit of the military and defence sectors).

    That's not to say the "threat" doesn't exist and we know it's more about protecting the digital infrastructure from attack. IF the US chooses to disengage from Europe and concentrate on the Pacific and China (and that's been on the cards for 30 years or more), the Europeans as a whole have to take a more co-ordinated approach to defence and that will presumably be led by Poland, Germany, the UK and France. Whether we transition from NATO to ETO or something else over time I'm not sure but irrespective of whether we want to be part of Europe politically and economically, we can't avoid our proximity geographically.

    Defence procurement has been a terrible mess for decades if you’re the taxpayer. That’s what happens when there isn’t an actual war ongoing.

    Now that there is an actual war happening, and a requirement to get equipment to the front lines ASAP, there needs to be some rapid agreement on common equipment, and production lines set up to supply it all over Europe. Get everything as standardised as possible, and make sh!tloads of it, alongside lines for 155mm and 152mm artillery ammunition, which thankfully was standardised some time ago.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,131

    Looking ahead to the King's Speech, this struck me as odd:
    "A separate bill has been promised to extend the right to make equal pay claims under the Equality Act to ethnic minority workers and disabled people."

    I was pretty sure that equal pay already applied to not just both sexes, but races as well. Was that not the case?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51y7pqy1v3o

    Equalities -> Women and Equalities -> Women and Ethnic Minorities and Equalities ->Women and Ethnic Minorities and Disabled and Equalities

    Politics is about priorities.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,429
    Southgate and Gething both gone.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 954
    Why did Southgate fail to win a trophy?
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,149
    Wonder who will replace Gething? Or will it be a stitch up for the runner up last time?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,481
    ToryJim said:

    Wonder who will replace Gething? Or will it be a stitch up for the runner up last time?

    Gething for England coach and Southgate for FM ?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,145
    edited July 16

    Four Welsh government ministers resign demanding Gething goes

    How Gething has defied demands to go after he lost a vonc is arrogance and just wrong

    It worked for Boris, at least temporarily. He stayed in office after losing that Schrodinger's vote that was a vonc for the purpose of kicking centrists out of the party but not a vonc when it came to leaders resigning.

    ETA I see the First Minister has now resigned.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,149
    Pulpstar said:

    ToryJim said:

    Wonder who will replace Gething? Or will it be a stitch up for the runner up last time?

    Gething for England coach and Southgate for FM ?
    Not sure Gething has the skill set. I think Southgate might work in Cardiff Bay as he has proven experience of rescuing an operation from an existential crisis.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,415
    Nunu5 said:

    Why did Southgate fail to win a trophy?

    He fell to pizzas when it mattered?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517
    edited July 16
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Many things can be true. The evidence so far points to some kind of Russia/Ukraine involvement. Beyond that - well, where were you on the days in question? Anyone can accuse anyone.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,535
    edited July 16
    ToryJim said:

    Econew said:

    Southgate resigns.

    That’s disappointing but understandable. I mean he’s got a better record than most recent managers but keeps getting abuse from the pissed up fans on vox pops who are arrogant enough to think they’d have a prayer of doing better.
    It is sad that English (and Scottish - I don't know about Welsh) football is in the cultural toilet. Most "top flight" games are tedious; commentary lacks any insight; little boys (in particular) are modelled appalling behaviour - what used to be roundly condemned as "professional fouls", leaving the perpetrator in contempt, are now praised as "well, it was only thing left that they could do", and you see that carried through to the playground.

    Southgate was something of a bulwark against all that. He clearly loves the game, encouraged a positive "one for all" team spirit, and got some considerable success - especially with the younger players. But even he couldn't overcome all that baggage.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,076

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Many things can be true. The evidence so far points to some kind of Russia/Ukraine involvement. Beyond that - well, where were you on the days in question? Anyone can accuse anyone.
    Is that Russia or Ukraine? Or Russia and Ukraine?
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,842
    Was anyone on the Southgate/Gething double?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,525
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Yes, exactly

    Which is why I said this was done by America and American PROXIES

    The US is not going to send in a conspicuous bunch of Navy Seals and Jill Biden in a bikini to sabotage Nordstream AND THE GERMAN ECONOMY. Germany is a crucial ally

    So they got someone else to do it, giving plausible deniability. Which American ally would be really keen on blowing up the pipeline? Ukraine

    Get Ukraine to do it, and - if what @Gardenwalker told us is correct - get the Brits to help out

    That is what happened. America wanted the pipeline ended, if Russia invaded, Biden told exactly this IN HIS OWN WORDS. Russia invaded, the pipeline was ended, as America openly promised and desired

    Anyone who does not now grasp this is, genuinely, quite dim. It is disappointing that this includes a fair few PBers

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Many things can be true. The evidence so far points to some kind of Russia/Ukraine involvement. Beyond that - well, where were you on the days in question? Anyone can accuse anyone.
    Is that Russia or Ukraine? Or Russia and Ukraine?
    The actual evidence is that

    1) The company that hired the yacht was owned by a woman who live in the Crimea (Russian occupied area).
    2) One of the people on the boat has been identified (from photo) as a Ukrainian.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,525

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Many things can be true. The evidence so far points to some kind of Russia/Ukraine involvement. Beyond that - well, where were you on the days in question? Anyone can accuse anyone.
    PRESIDENT FUCKING BIDEN SAID, AND I QUOTE: "If Russia invades Ukraine, there will be no more Nordstream, we will bring an end to it"

    Russia invades Ukraine

    Nordstream is ended

    PB: "Fucking hell, what happened there? Who did that? The Late Keith Chegwin? The reserve goalkeeper for West Brom?"
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,415
    ToryJim said:

    Pulpstar said:

    ToryJim said:

    Wonder who will replace Gething? Or will it be a stitch up for the runner up last time?

    Gething for England coach and Southgate for FM ?
    Not sure Gething has the skill set. I think Southgate might work in Cardiff Bay as he has proven experience of rescuing an operation from an existential crisis.
    Sounds more like he'd be great as the next Conservative leader :wink:
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,049
    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,076

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Many things can be true. The evidence so far points to some kind of Russia/Ukraine involvement. Beyond that - well, where were you on the days in question? Anyone can accuse anyone.
    Is that Russia or Ukraine? Or Russia and Ukraine?
    The actual evidence is that

    1) The company that hired the yacht was owned by a woman who live in the Crimea (Russian occupied area).
    2) One of the people on the boat has been identified (from photo) as a Ukrainian.
    If he, presumably a diver, is Ukrainian, it doesn’t necessarily follow that he is anti-Putin. There are a few Ukrainians who are pro Moscow, although of course, the vast majority have now left Ukraine.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Yes, exactly

    Which is why I said this was done by America and American PROXIES

    The US is not going to send in a conspicuous bunch of Navy Seals and Jill Biden in a bikini to sabotage Nordstream AND THE GERMAN ECONOMY. Germany is a crucial ally

    They also has the entire USS Kearsage Amphibious Response Group in the area that week which has been airily dismissed as a coincidence.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,525

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Many things can be true. The evidence so far points to some kind of Russia/Ukraine involvement. Beyond that - well, where were you on the days in question? Anyone can accuse anyone.
    Is that Russia or Ukraine? Or Russia and Ukraine?
    The actual evidence is that

    1) The company that hired the yacht was owned by a woman who live in the Crimea (Russian occupied area).
    2) One of the people on the boat has been identified (from photo) as a Ukrainian.
    Has it literally not occurred to you that, before doing this incredibly consequential act, the Ukrainians might have conferred with their most powerful and important ally, the United States of America, to make sure they still wanted the pipeline ended?

    Or do you think the Ukrainians thought, nah, fuck America, let's just do it ourselves, if they don't like it, tough shit, we don't need any of their weapons anyway
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,525
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Yes, exactly

    Which is why I said this was done by America and American PROXIES

    The US is not going to send in a conspicuous bunch of Navy Seals and Jill Biden in a bikini to sabotage Nordstream AND THE GERMAN ECONOMY. Germany is a crucial ally

    They also has the entire USS Kearsage Amphibious Response Group in the area that week which has been airily dismissed as a coincidence.
    Quite. Anyone who doesn't now grasp this is actively dumb as a rock in a box and i have no more desire to argue with them. Also I gotta pack for my road trip

    Manana
  • eekeek Posts: 27,570
    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Many things can be true. The evidence so far points to some kind of Russia/Ukraine involvement. Beyond that - well, where were you on the days in question? Anyone can accuse anyone.
    PRESIDENT FUCKING BIDEN SAID, AND I QUOTE: "If Russia invades Ukraine, there will be no more Nordstream, we will bring an end to it"

    Russia invades Ukraine

    Nordstream is ended

    PB: "Fucking hell, what happened there? Who did that? The Late Keith Chegwin? The reserve goalkeeper for West Brom?"
    Nordstream was turned off. The Russians were stopping flow in Nordstream 1 and the Germans were not completing the deal on Nordstream 2.

    The reason that the Germans were not completing the deal was that US sanctions meant that if German banks went through with the financing, they (the German banks) would be sanctioned by the US. The US sanctions explicitly included the Nordstream project and the legislation was proposed by the... White House.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,145
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Many things can be true. The evidence so far points to some kind of Russia/Ukraine involvement. Beyond that - well, where were you on the days in question? Anyone can accuse anyone.
    PRESIDENT FUCKING BIDEN SAID, AND I QUOTE: "If Russia invades Ukraine, there will be no more Nordstream, we will bring an end to it"

    Russia invades Ukraine

    Nordstream is ended

    PB: "Fucking hell, what happened there? Who did that? The Late Keith Chegwin? The reserve goalkeeper for West Brom?"
    Yeah but Biden is clearly insane so why take him seriously now?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,553
    Just posting this for the sake of completeness: My fairly well-connected (FDP-supporting) German friend reckons Nordstream was blown up by the Germans.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,145
    Betfair has still not settled the VP choice market, presumably in case Trump changes his mind. Occasionally a small amount of 1.01 appears as impatient backers cash out.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Yes, exactly

    Which is why I said this was done by America and American PROXIES

    The US is not going to send in a conspicuous bunch of Navy Seals and Jill Biden in a bikini to sabotage Nordstream AND THE GERMAN ECONOMY. Germany is a crucial ally

    They also has the entire USS Kearsage Amphibious Response Group in the area that week which has been airily dismissed as a coincidence.
    And a Russian task force was in the area, complete with one of their support ships for minisub operations. Who then turned off their transponders in an attempt to hide where they were.
  • FossFoss Posts: 920
    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    NLA would also like to point out that ladder restrictions would also disproportionately affect women, minorities, and the disabled...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,429

    Betfair has still not settled the VP choice market, presumably in case Trump changes his mind. Occasionally a small amount of 1.01 appears as impatient backers cash out.

    IIRC the formal nomination of Trump and Vance is not until Thursday, at the end of the Convention.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517
    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,555
    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,481
    edited July 16

    Just imagining the chaos as Russian, American, German and Ukrainian divers keep bumping into each other while they all try to blow up the same pipeline

    The pipeline was slightly embarrassing for everyone for different reasons. Maybe it was jointly authorised to be blown up - and then agreed to be forgotten about by Biden, Scholz, Putin and Zelensky in a rare point of agreement.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,674
    ToryJim said:

    Gething quits. Inevitable really.

    He looked very uncomfortable on the BBC Wales coverage of the election.

    Labour did well in terms of sests and badly in terms of votes dropping to 37% from 41% but winning 27 of the 32 seats. The desire to boot out the Conservatives nationally masked that to some extent but with Senedd elections due in May 2026 (that will be a huge day politically with elections in Scotland and London as well), the various opposition groups in Wales might start thinking how they can form a non-Labour administration.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,429
    Foss said:

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    NLA would also like to point out that ladder restrictions would also disproportionately affect women, minorities, and the disabled...
    Especially those municipal-grade electric extending platforms, they are vital for disadvantaged and minority communities, who otherwise struggle to get up the ladder.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,608
    The next England football manager must - absolutely must - win the next World Cup, otherwise Southgate's detractors will have a lot of explaining to do.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,429

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
    So how is anyone ever supposed to use their ladder. Admit it, you just want to ban ladders.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,481
    Sandpit said:

    Betfair has still not settled the VP choice market, presumably in case Trump changes his mind. Occasionally a small amount of 1.01 appears as impatient backers cash out.

    IIRC the formal nomination of Trump and Vance is not until Thursday, at the end of the Convention.
    Noone's doing anything on Betfair at the moment as the exchange is down.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517

    Just imagining the chaos as Russian, American, German and Ukrainian divers keep bumping into each other while they all try to blow up the same pipeline

    Bit like the scene outside Epstein's cell.

    Assassin 1 - "Er... someone has already killed the CCTV and drugged the guards. In fact 27 other people..... Wait - Fred? I haven't seen yous since Paris? What you are you doing here?
    Assassin 2 - "Same as you. It's been a bit quiet recently - Gloria and I had another kid... Natasha is here by the way"
    Assassin 3 - "Hi - long time"
    Assassin 4 - "Natasha? Holy crap. Guys, we have to go for a catchup after this."

    etc.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
    So how is anyone ever supposed to use their ladder. Admit it, you just want to ban ladders.
    No, I just want people to use ladders sanely.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,270
    Sandpit said:

    Southgate and Gething both gone.

    Could they do a job swap? Southgate as Welsh First Minister?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517
    Sandpit said:

    Foss said:

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    NLA would also like to point out that ladder restrictions would also disproportionately affect women, minorities, and the disabled...
    Especially those municipal-grade electric extending platforms, they are vital for disadvantaged and minority communities, who otherwise struggle to get up the ladder.
    But that is a military grade assault ladder - can't just have anyone having one of those.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,674

    The next England football manager must - absolutely must - win the next World Cup, otherwise Southgate's detractors will have a lot of explaining to do.

    60 years of hurt, etc, etc.

    Currently you can have 6s Brazil, Spain and France, 13/2 England and 7s Argentina who won the Copa America on Sunday. They beat Colombia who are currently 66s.

    Draw for the UEFA Group stage in December with qualification matches starting in the spring of 2025.

    South America has already started - six rounds played so far and Argentina top with Uruguay second and Colombia third - Brazil in sixth.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,699

    Just imagining the chaos as Russian, American, German and Ukrainian divers keep bumping into each other while they all try to blow up the same pipeline

    Sounds like Murder on the Orient Express
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,145

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
    I know you are joking but a lot of ladder stuff has been replaced by scaffold stuff on safety grounds.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,429

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
    So how is anyone ever supposed to use their ladder. Admit it, you just want to ban ladders.
    No, I just want people to use ladders sanely.
    There’s nothing sane about restricting access to ladders, even the really tall ones.

    You just don’t want people to have ladders at all, a shill for the forklift industry.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
    I know you are joking but a lot of ladder stuff has been replaced by scaffold stuff on safety grounds.
    Only half joking.

    The effort people with ladders put into trying to kill themselves, on building site, is extraordinary.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
    So how is anyone ever supposed to use their ladder. Admit it, you just want to ban ladders.
    No, I just want people to use ladders sanely.
    There’s nothing sane about restricting access to ladders, even the really tall ones.

    You just don’t want people to have ladders at all, a shill for the forklift industry.
    Forklifts?

    Nah

    Big Scaffolding, you mean.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,584
    Healey, NY Times on Vance choice:

    "My mind went to two things: the Electoral College map and the Republican Party’s future. Presidential politics boils down to getting to 270 Electoral College votes, and Vance could help Trump in the industrial Midwestern states that are those must-win “blue wall” states for President Biden. Trump-Vance will pack a wallop in Michigan, western Pennsylvania, parts of Wisconsin."

    imho Biden lost the evening of that terrible debate, but now things are looking even worse frankly.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,270
    edited July 16

    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
    The system has changed in the past. The UK constitution is one that evolves. The current allocation of PMQ questions only dates back to 1997. It was varied during the 2010-5 coalition.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,177
    On the Southgate stuff I think there are two separate issues.

    1. We expect too much of our national team. We are generally probably in the top 5 in Europe but certainly not the best team by some stretch and to be honest never have been - even when we won the World Cup. By any reasonable measure a semi-final or final place is provabably par for us. This is an argument in defence of Southgate and his record.

    2. However, Southgate's tactics at this competition were bloody atrocious. Time after time we got a lead and then sat back. There was little or no movement off the ball and we completely failed to make the best of a set of some of the very best footballers in the world. We were lucky this time to get to the final - we were lucky to even get out of the group stages given we had by far the easiest group of all of them. This is why I think Southgate is a bad manager and I am glad to see the back of him.

    Ignore his record, look at his match performance. He wasted a great set of players.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,974

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
    More construction workers are killed by dropped mobile phones and tools than by ladders.

    Typical prejudice from the elevator elite.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,108

    The next England football manager must - absolutely must - win the next World Cup, otherwise Southgate's detractors will have a lot of explaining to do.

    The next manager doesn't have to win any tournaments to be better than Southgate. Just winning a few matches against big countries would be a step up.
    It's possible to believe Southgate is a mildly underwhelming manager and England an uderwhelming team while also believing Southgate to be better than any manager since Sven, who himself was a little underwhelming.

    He's not terrible. But calling Southgate successful for coming second after beating Serbia, drawing with Denmark and Slovenia, and beating Slovakia, Switzerland and the Netherlands would be like calling the manager of Rangers successful for a campaign in which Rangers beat St. Johnstone, draw with Motherwell and St. Mirren, beat Partick Thistle, Dundee and Aberdeen before finally coming up short against Celtic.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,555

    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
    The system has changed in the past. The UK constitution is one that evolves.
    I agree. But it evolves based on precedent and principles. If you’re going to establish those principles, you should get as broad agreement on them as you can.

    The allocation of questions etc has worked in this particular way for decades. So if it’s changing, in line with our constitutional evolution it should do so broadly by consent and by an acceptance of the reasoning behind it.

    I agree with giving out more questions and powers to smaller parties in the Commons - indeed I think it’s important in a multi party democracy. But let’s do it right rather than in a knee jerk way.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,871



    Is that Russia or Ukraine? Or Russia and Ukraine?

    Why not both?

    It was the Soviet Union!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,270

    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
    The system has changed in the past. The UK constitution is one that evolves. The current allocation of PMQ questions only dates back to 1997. It was varied during the 2010-5 coalition.
    I'm now reading the history on this. PMQs on fixed days came in in 1961, but its modern form evolved over time, notably in the early '80s. Blair moved it to a single day.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,177

    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
    The system has changed in the past. The UK constitution is one that evolves. The current allocation of PMQ questions only dates back to 1997. It was varied during the 2010-5 coalition.
    How is membership of select committees decided? I think* they have more minor party representation than at PMQs. Maybe there is something there we could look at for a lead in how to arrange things.

    *think, not know. Happy to be corrected.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,270

    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
    The system has changed in the past. The UK constitution is one that evolves.
    I agree. But it evolves based on precedent and principles. If you’re going to establish those principles, you should get as broad agreement on them as you can.

    The allocation of questions etc has worked in this particular way for decades. So if it’s changing, in line with our constitutional evolution it should do so broadly by consent and by an acceptance of the reasoning behind it.

    I agree with giving out more questions and powers to smaller parties in the Commons - indeed I think it’s important in a multi party democracy. But let’s do it right rather than in a knee jerk way.
    When you say the allocation of questions has worked for decades, it's only 2.5 decades, since 1997, and even then you have to exclude 2010-5.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,270

    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
    The system has changed in the past. The UK constitution is one that evolves. The current allocation of PMQ questions only dates back to 1997. It was varied during the 2010-5 coalition.
    How is membership of select committees decided? I think* they have more minor party representation than at PMQs. Maybe there is something there we could look at for a lead in how to arrange things.

    *think, not know. Happy to be corrected.
    Select committee chairs and membership are decided in proportion to how many MPs you won, AIUI.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,957
    edited July 16

    More than half a million people are paying up to 60pc tax on the top chunk of their pay after a stealth tax raid on earnings, figures show.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/half-million-britons-caught-60pc-tax-trap/

    I wonder how many more take the extra holiday or perks in kind to avoid being dragged into it. This should be a dead simple thing to fix and long term would more than likely raise more tax / increase productivity.

    That's so wonderfully Telegraph.

    A tax setup that has existed throughout the last 5 Conservative Prime Ministers suddenly becomes a STEALTH TAX RAID !!! one week into a Labour Government. Wording:

    More than half a million people are paying up to 60pc tax on the top chunk of their pay after a stealth tax raid on earnings, figures show.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,555

    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
    The system has changed in the past. The UK constitution is one that evolves.
    I agree. But it evolves based on precedent and principles. If you’re going to establish those principles, you should get as broad agreement on them as you can.

    The allocation of questions etc has worked in this particular way for decades. So if it’s changing, in line with our constitutional evolution it should do so broadly by consent and by an acceptance of the reasoning behind it.

    I agree with giving out more questions and powers to smaller parties in the Commons - indeed I think it’s important in a multi party democracy. But let’s do it right rather than in a knee jerk way.
    When you say the allocation of questions has worked for decades, it's only 2.5 decades, since 1997, and even then you have to exclude 2010-5.
    That may be the case. My point still stands though?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,444
    edited July 16
    I wonder what her defence will be to why she is innocent? I tripped and fell.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13638795/onlyfans-denies-assault-criminal-damage-milkshake-nigel-farage.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,444
    edited July 16
    MattW said:

    More than half a million people are paying up to 60pc tax on the top chunk of their pay after a stealth tax raid on earnings, figures show.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/half-million-britons-caught-60pc-tax-trap/

    I wonder how many more take the extra holiday or perks in kind to avoid being dragged into it. This should be a dead simple thing to fix and long term would more than likely raise more tax / increase productivity.

    That's so wonderfully Telegraph.

    A tax setup that has existed throughout the last 5 Conservative Prime Ministers suddenly becomes a STEALTH TAX RAID !!! one week into a Labour Government. Wording:

    More than half a million people are paying up to 60pc tax on the top chunk of their pay after a stealth tax raid on earnings, figures show.
    The Telegraph has compeletely lot their marbles the past couple of months. However some of us have been banging on about how stupid this cliff edge for donkeys years. There was nothing stealthy about it, it was introduced very much front and centre as the rich must pay more.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,131
    You
    good morning copilot. Can you tell me the name of a recent Russian geopolitical analyst that advocates for the first use of nuclear weapons?

    Copilot
    Certainly! Two notable Russian geopolitical analysts have recently advocated for the first use of nuclear weapons:
    • Sergei Karaganov: He is the chair of the Council on Foreign and Defence Policy, a prestigious Russian think-tank, and an adviser to President Vladimir Putin. In an article titled “A Difficult but Necessary Decision,” Karaganov argues that Russia needs to lower the threshold for using nuclear weapons to prevent a civilization-ending nuclear war. He suggests considering initiating a smaller, containable attack that would split the NATO alliance and ensure Russia’s victory against Ukraine1.
    • Dmitri Trenin: As a foreign affairs analyst at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations (a Moscow think tank advising the Kremlin), Trenin has urged modifying Russia’s doctrine to allow for the first use of nuclear weapons when “core national interests are at stake,” such as in the case of Ukraine2.
    These analysts’ views have ignited debates about the role of nuclear weapons in Russia’s war strategy. Keep in mind that these positions are controversial and have drawn international attention and concern3.

    1 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-nuclear-weapons-attack-putin-1.6885338
    2 https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/where-putin-stands-on-using-nuclear-weapons-to-win-russias-war-in-ukraine
    3 https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/90232
    4 https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2023/12/the-nuclear-shadows-of-the-ukraine-war-as-seen-through.html

    You
    Thank you copilot. Can you give me a list of writings by Sergei Karaganov on this subject please?

    Copilot
    Certainly! While I don’t have access to an exhaustive list of Sergei Karaganov’s writings, I can provide you with some notable articles and publications related to his views on nuclear weapons:
    • “A Difficult but Necessary Decision”: In this article, Karaganov argues for lowering the threshold for using nuclear weapons to prevent a civilization-ending nuclear war. He suggests considering a smaller, containable attack that would split the NATO alliance and ensure Russia’s victory against Ukraine.
    • “Russia’s Nuclear Doctrine: What’s New?”: Although not exclusively focused on first-use scenarios, this paper by Karaganov discusses Russia’s evolving nuclear doctrine and its implications for global security.
    • “The Russian Nuclear Posture: Challenges and Opportunities”: Karaganov has contributed to discussions on Russia’s nuclear posture, including the possibility of first-use scenarios. While this paper doesn’t advocate explicitly for first use, it provides insights into Russia’s strategic thinking.
    Remember that these writings represent Karaganov’s perspective, and there are varying opinions on this topic within the geopolitical community.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,429
    edited July 16

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
    So how is anyone ever supposed to use their ladder. Admit it, you just want to ban ladders.
    No, I just want people to use ladders sanely.
    There’s nothing sane about restricting access to ladders, even the really tall ones.

    You just don’t want people to have ladders at all, a shill for the forklift industry.
    Forklifts?

    Nah

    Big Scaffolding, you mean.
    Ah, scaffolding, how to make it take all bloody day to change a light bulb or a roof tile, when you could just be using a ladder and have it done in five minutes.

    That’s what happens when you ban ladders. Britian banned ladders a couple of decades ago after one unfortunate incident in a school, and now there’s an epidemic of lost productivity due to scaffolding.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,553

    Healey, NY Times on Vance choice:

    "My mind went to two things: the Electoral College map and the Republican Party’s future. Presidential politics boils down to getting to 270 Electoral College votes, and Vance could help Trump in the industrial Midwestern states that are those must-win “blue wall” states for President Biden. Trump-Vance will pack a wallop in Michigan, western Pennsylvania, parts of Wisconsin."

    imho Biden lost the evening of that terrible debate, but now things are looking even worse frankly.

    Is Vance popular in the industrial mid-west? Vance under-performed Trump (2022 vs 2020, which is a national environment where the GOP won The House vs one where they lost it) so he doesn't seem wildly popular even in Ohio?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,177

    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
    The system has changed in the past. The UK constitution is one that evolves. The current allocation of PMQ questions only dates back to 1997. It was varied during the 2010-5 coalition.
    How is membership of select committees decided? I think* they have more minor party representation than at PMQs. Maybe there is something there we could look at for a lead in how to arrange things.

    *think, not know. Happy to be corrected.
    Select committee chairs and membership are decided in proportion to how many MPs you won, AIUI.
    Seems a good basis for PMQs and Opposition Days as well. I would also like to see more time being allocated for Back Bench motions/Private Members Bills. Try and reduce some of the party domination in favour of the MPs themselves.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,524

    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
    The system has changed in the past. The UK constitution is one that evolves. The current allocation of PMQ questions only dates back to 1997. It was varied during the 2010-5 coalition.
    How is membership of select committees decided? I think* they have more minor party representation than at PMQs. Maybe there is something there we could look at for a lead in how to arrange things.

    *think, not know. Happy to be corrected.
    I don't know (I hate when people answer questions with that as I always think why bother answering then), BUT I know Archie Kirkwood was chair of the W&P committee yonks ago which must be unusual for a minor party so there must be quite some degree of flexibility.

    I did think after the GE that we were in new territory. It isn't now clear cut that you have a Govt and an official opposition when the official opposition doesn't have that many more seats than the 3rd party and that the role should be shared to some degree. I can't see the Tories accepting that though. We were discussing before what would happen if the two parties were within one or two seats of each other and we would probably have had the unseemly clash over who really is the official opposition with deals being done with the Alliance and DUP and which ones count.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
    So how is anyone ever supposed to use their ladder. Admit it, you just want to ban ladders.
    No, I just want people to use ladders sanely.
    There’s nothing sane about restricting access to ladders, even the really tall ones.

    You just don’t want people to have ladders at all, a shill for the forklift industry.
    Forklifts?

    Nah

    Big Scaffolding, you mean.
    Ah, scaffolding, how to make it take all bloody day to change a light bulb or a roof tile, when you could just be using a ladder and have it done in five minutes.

    That’s what happens when you ban ladders. Britian banned ladders a couple of decades ago after one unfortunate incident in a school, and now there’s an epidemic of lost productivity due to scaffolding.
    Bet you have a whole arsenal of high grade ladders at home. No licensing, no training, posts to dodgy political forums.....

    Textbook.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,481
    Bit surprising her mum's house has a "spare room" in Grays if it's worth £260,000 - can only find one and two beds for that amount.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,957
    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    kjh said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It’s almost always so.

    It’s a massive cockup not to have delayed the event though, if they knew there was someone suspicious with a rangefinder and a packback in the close vicinity of the venue and only 150yds from the stage.

    The inquiry is going to be all the different groups of police blaming each other. Apparently six different LEAs involved, plus local private security. The FBI will be pleased to be the lead agency running the investigation, that way they’re least likely to have to take any of the blame.

    One can well imagine someone of means stepping forward to fund a class action lawsuit on behalf of the victims, although the fundraisers for them are already well into the millions of dollars.
    Weird-looking people with assault rifles are the core Trump demographic. You can't shut down a whole event just because you see one of them, it would be like evacuating the LibDem Party Conference if you saw someone wearing sandals.
    Ha ha I’ll give you that.

    In the early days of Trump rallies, they actually had to keep making a point of telling everyone to leave their guns at home, as everyone gets searched on the way in (by local security, supervised by the USSS).

    The problem here, was that the area where the shooter was seen was outside the official perimeter, but still close enough to get a good view, so there were a lot of people hanging around that area rather than actually going in to the event.
    Lying on the roof of the building I think was the big give away which was spotted by dozens well in advance and is on film.
    And people might well be recalling the G8 in 2008, when the Secret Service nearly opened fire on local police snipers who had taken position on a rooftop under their control without informing the Secret Service. Apparently.

    Which might lead to the following sort of conversation:

    "There's a gunman on that roof!"
    SS: "Is that under the local (whatever PD control?"
    "Yes."
    SS: "Okay, it's one of theirs. Don't fire."

    Which is stupid but understandable. You can make it less stupid with:

    "There's a gunman on that roof!"
    "Is that under the local (whatever PD control?"
    "Should be."
    "Okay, contact them and ask them if it's one of their."
    Then the usual comms and organisational snafus occur.

    Such as:
    SS; "Do you have anyone on top of building X?"
    Agency A: "Which building's that?"
    SS: "The one at the corner of Y and Z."
    Agency A: "Ah, the book depository. No, that's Agency B's area."
    SS hangs up and calls Agency B
    Agency B: "Sure, that's our building. I don't think we have anyone up there, but that's Bill's area. I'll just get him..."

    And the minutes roll by....

    Edit: I would hope their processes were better than that. But however good the SS's processes, many of these small local PDs won't have the same experience or institutional knowledge.
    There's quite a lot in that - the USA has 18,000 police agencies, of which 15000+ are local police forces of one sort or another - quite a number perhaps run by a 2024 version of Sheriff Roscoe P Coltrane, with a machine gun and a de-militarised armoured car.
    I was going to point out their use of armoured tracked vehicles but checked my facts, despite being on PB, and Sheriff Coltrane apparently had to turn in his M113 some years back.

    https://tankandafvnews.com/2015/11/28/police-m113-gallery/

    Though with the current designs of wheeled AFVs I'm not sure it makes much difference whether the municipal AFV is a track or an armoured car.
    "checked my facts, despite being on PB" :lol:
    I didn't say tracked. Checked facts are not necessarily in the correct direction :smile: .

    They have a lot of MRAP type vehicles, amongst others, of the type left over after the military has pivoted from Afghanistan type operations to more traditional military ones.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/05/why-are-some-us-police-forces-equipped-like-military-units

    Anyway, there was on Die Hard so it must be true!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517

    Healey, NY Times on Vance choice:

    "My mind went to two things: the Electoral College map and the Republican Party’s future. Presidential politics boils down to getting to 270 Electoral College votes, and Vance could help Trump in the industrial Midwestern states that are those must-win “blue wall” states for President Biden. Trump-Vance will pack a wallop in Michigan, western Pennsylvania, parts of Wisconsin."

    imho Biden lost the evening of that terrible debate, but now things are looking even worse frankly.

    Is Vance popular in the industrial mid-west? Vance under-performed Trump (2022 vs 2020, which is a national environment where the GOP won The House vs one where they lost it) so he doesn't seem wildly popular even in Ohio?
    One of the reasons that Trump picked Vance is that, like Pence, he is by himself very much a second rater.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,584

    Healey, NY Times on Vance choice:

    "My mind went to two things: the Electoral College map and the Republican Party’s future. Presidential politics boils down to getting to 270 Electoral College votes, and Vance could help Trump in the industrial Midwestern states that are those must-win “blue wall” states for President Biden. Trump-Vance will pack a wallop in Michigan, western Pennsylvania, parts of Wisconsin."

    imho Biden lost the evening of that terrible debate, but now things are looking even worse frankly.

    Is Vance popular in the industrial mid-west? Vance under-performed Trump (2022 vs 2020, which is a national environment where the GOP won The House vs one where they lost it) so he doesn't seem wildly popular even in Ohio?
    We are about to find out. He certainly has a tale to tell of log cabin to WH.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,614

    Healey, NY Times on Vance choice:

    "My mind went to two things: the Electoral College map and the Republican Party’s future. Presidential politics boils down to getting to 270 Electoral College votes, and Vance could help Trump in the industrial Midwestern states that are those must-win “blue wall” states for President Biden. Trump-Vance will pack a wallop in Michigan, western Pennsylvania, parts of Wisconsin."

    imho Biden lost the evening of that terrible debate, but now things are looking even worse frankly.

    Is Vance popular in the industrial mid-west? Vance under-performed Trump (2022 vs 2020, which is a national environment where the GOP won The House vs one where they lost it) so he doesn't seem wildly popular even in Ohio?
    Might help in Ohio as a Local Hero, but Vance is there for one big reason. Having criticised Trump and then become his Veep pick, he's utterly emasculated.

    The Ricky Gervais to Trump's evil Kermit the Frog in Muppets Most Wanted.

    https://youtu.be/bih0JSYY0YA
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,524

    eek said:

    Hansard Society is saying that the way opposition days and PMQ questions are shared out probably needs to change now the Tories have only 55% of the opposition seats and not 70-74% (as has always been the case before) https://x.com/HansardSociety/status/1813094972104511809

    If you’re going to do that though you need to have a clear set of agreed principles laid down all parties sign up to respect in future. It strikes me that once you start changing things like this it opens the floodgates for everyone demanding different treatment. I think that is why the system has worked as it has done for some time.
    The system has changed in the past. The UK constitution is one that evolves. The current allocation of PMQ questions only dates back to 1997. It was varied during the 2010-5 coalition.
    How is membership of select committees decided? I think* they have more minor party representation than at PMQs. Maybe there is something there we could look at for a lead in how to arrange things.

    *think, not know. Happy to be corrected.
    Select committee chairs and membership are decided in proportion to how many MPs you won, AIUI.
    Seems a good basis for PMQs and Opposition Days as well. I would also like to see more time being allocated for Back Bench motions/Private Members Bills. Try and reduce some of the party domination in favour of the MPs themselves.
    I know from previous discussions this is something we both agree on. I would like to see the whips offices/role weakened. In fact I would like to see the official whipping operation removed entirely. You can't stop it happening unofficially, but I don't like the fact that it is part of the official process.

    No MP should be officially whipped (I have just realised that might result in some unseemly replies)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,533
    Anyone who has spent the slightest amount of time watching "24hrs in A&E" will know that if you want to avoid injury and in particular you are an older white bloke then you should avoid ladders at all costs.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,481

    Healey, NY Times on Vance choice:

    "My mind went to two things: the Electoral College map and the Republican Party’s future. Presidential politics boils down to getting to 270 Electoral College votes, and Vance could help Trump in the industrial Midwestern states that are those must-win “blue wall” states for President Biden. Trump-Vance will pack a wallop in Michigan, western Pennsylvania, parts of Wisconsin."

    imho Biden lost the evening of that terrible debate, but now things are looking even worse frankly.

    Is Vance popular in the industrial mid-west? Vance under-performed Trump (2022 vs 2020, which is a national environment where the GOP won The House vs one where they lost it) so he doesn't seem wildly popular even in Ohio?
    One of the reasons that Trump picked Vance is that, like Pence, he is by himself very much a second rater.
    Yep - turns out Haley was out at 50-1 for a reason yesterday.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,690

    Healey, NY Times on Vance choice:

    "My mind went to two things: the Electoral College map and the Republican Party’s future. Presidential politics boils down to getting to 270 Electoral College votes, and Vance could help Trump in the industrial Midwestern states that are those must-win “blue wall” states for President Biden. Trump-Vance will pack a wallop in Michigan, western Pennsylvania, parts of Wisconsin."

    imho Biden lost the evening of that terrible debate, but now things are looking even worse frankly.

    Is Vance popular in the industrial mid-west? Vance under-performed Trump (2022 vs 2020, which is a national environment where the GOP won The House vs one where they lost it) so he doesn't seem wildly popular even in Ohio?
    Might help in Ohio as a Local Hero, but Vance is there for one big reason. Having criticised Trump and then become his Veep pick, he's utterly emasculated.

    The Ricky Gervais to Trump's evil Kermit the Frog in Muppets Most Wanted.

    https://youtu.be/bih0JSYY0YA
    I think modern politics is becoming utterly incomprehensible.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,429
    That’s she immediately tried to use the incident to promote herself for financial gain, is going to be one hell of an aggravating factor when it comes to sentencing.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,957
    edited July 16

    MattW said:

    More than half a million people are paying up to 60pc tax on the top chunk of their pay after a stealth tax raid on earnings, figures show.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/half-million-britons-caught-60pc-tax-trap/

    I wonder how many more take the extra holiday or perks in kind to avoid being dragged into it. This should be a dead simple thing to fix and long term would more than likely raise more tax / increase productivity.

    That's so wonderfully Telegraph.

    A tax setup that has existed throughout the last 5 Conservative Prime Ministers suddenly becomes a STEALTH TAX RAID !!! one week into a Labour Government. Wording:

    More than half a million people are paying up to 60pc tax on the top chunk of their pay after a stealth tax raid on earnings, figures show.
    The Telegraph has compeletely lot their marbles the past couple of months. However some of us have been banging on about how stupid this cliff edge for donkeys years. There was nothing stealthy about it, it was introduced very much front and centre as the rich must pay more.
    It's a lot longer than a couple of months imo. But then I would mainly pick up their dishonest / rantaloon pieces trying to make active travel a wedge-issue, and Ukraine / foreign affairs, and the occasional loopy columnist.

    I'd expect the current Govt to do something about such a cliff-edge since they want economic activity and it can be done in a revenue positive way whilst still being of benefit to most tax cliff-jumpers.

    I'd say how they do it without violating the letter of their "tax rate promises" will be interesting.

    The paper has imo put itself firmly in the small-print-Daily-Express category.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,864
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    There are a zillion people wandering around these events who the secret service takes an interest in.

    The fact that they had a good look at this guy just shows that they were doing their job. Even if he was wandering around with a firearm that would be completely legal in the state & the security services wouldn’t have been able to stop him!

    The outrageous failure (it seems to me) was to fail to secure the rooftop: It seems that the building had been handed over to the local PD & they failed to secure the building? I doubt Trump’s USSS detail will make that mistake again.
    In fairness to @leon on this one (although I still think he is wrong generally and specifically on his conspiracies) there was close up film of him on the roof by people with phones well before the shooting and lots of people understandably getting agitated about the fact that he was lying up there and getting the police who were to put it mildly somewhat relaxed about it.

    As you say it seems to be that the local police were handling this area (looking at the uniforms) and not doing it well because they didn't react appropriately for the circumstances.
    The only “conspiracies” I’ve pushed on here are

    1. Lab leak. And I was right

    And

    2. Biden is senile and they’re hiding it. And I was right

    And

    3. Nordstream was not done by Putin. It was America or an American proxy. And I was right
    On Norstream, you were wrong. As far as is known, it was traced to a yacht and some divers. There is evidence that the owner of the company that hired the yacht is from Crimea (Russian controlled) and that one of the divers may be from Ukraine.

    It's worth repeating that it was not necessarily a national level operation.

    1) The depths of water at the pipelines are well within the reach of moderately serious amateur divers. 2) The underwater explosives skills are common in the oil and gas industry.
    3) The pipelines are marked on navigation charts - to avoid people dragging anchors across them.

    So all you need are handful of divers, one of whom (at least) probably worked in the oil and gas sector previously. A boat. Some explosives. Fake passports.
    Both things can be true. Biden made the decision, Ukraine supplied the meat puppets.
    Many things can be true. The evidence so far points to some kind of Russia/Ukraine involvement. Beyond that - well, where were you on the days in question? Anyone can accuse anyone.
    PRESIDENT FUCKING BIDEN SAID, AND I QUOTE: "If Russia invades Ukraine, there
    will be no more Nordstream, we will bring an
    end to it"

    Russia invades Ukraine

    Nordstream is ended

    PB: "Fucking hell, what happened there?
    Who did that? The Late Keith Chegwin? The reserve goalkeeper for West Brom?"
    Circumstantial only
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,429
    edited July 16

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm more interested in the background of this character. As far as anyone is aware so far, he seems weirdly normal. If he has strong political opinions he has kept them to himself (which is unusual in the internet age). He doesn't appear to be down any rabbit holes which have yet been unearthed. Nothing in his backstory suggests he's stupid or insane.

    I'm all for the lone nutter angle. It explains many things. But for a lone nutter he appears unusually balanced and socially well adjusted.

    Of course, there may be more to come out.

    He seems to have found a remarkably effective vantage point outside the Federal security cordon. That strongly suggests prior surveillance, either by him or someone else, and prior knowledge of the divided police operation. How did the ladder get there?
    He bought a ladder the day before: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/15/us/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-shooting-invs/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

    Whether that was the ladder used on the day I don’t know. But it does suggest that going for Trump was a pre-planned operation, not a spur of the moment thing.
    Thanks for the info. Maybe the USA should make it harder to buy ladders.
    The National Ladder Association vehemently disagrees. It’s a constitutional right to keep and bear ladders, and it’s unconstitutional for the government to limit ladder ownership in any way. Even the really long ones that reach up several floors, they shouldn’t just be restricted to fire departments, and no the government shouldn’t be keeping records of who is buying ladders.
    Having seen the way ladders are used on building sites, I have proposed the following, in the past.

    1) All ladder operations can only be undertaken by a minimum of 2 trained ladder operators.
    2) A ladder operator has to do a 3 year training course, and pass detailed background checks and a mental health evaluation.
    3) All ladders to be secured with advanced locking systems.
    4) These systems only release the ladder if two qualified ladder operators use their official Ladder Launch Keys. They need to insert the keys, rotate 90 degrees and hold for 2 seconds. The key stations are 5 meters apart, and the keys need to be inserted and turned within 250 milliseconds.
    So how is anyone ever supposed to use their ladder. Admit it, you just want to ban ladders.
    No, I just want people to use ladders sanely.
    There’s nothing sane about restricting access to ladders, even the really tall ones.

    You just don’t want people to have ladders at all, a shill for the forklift industry.
    Forklifts?

    Nah

    Big Scaffolding, you mean.
    Ah, scaffolding, how to make it take all bloody day to change a light bulb or a roof tile, when you could just be using a ladder and have it done in five minutes.

    That’s what happens when you ban ladders. Britian banned ladders a couple of decades ago after one unfortunate incident in a school, and now there’s an epidemic of lost productivity due to scaffolding.
    Bet you have a whole arsenal of high grade ladders at home. No licensing, no training, posts to dodgy political forums.....

    Textbook.
    Yes, I have a whole garage full of ladders. But so what, that’s not really anyone else’s business but my own. I’m not hurting anyone, and they are much more useful than a couple of crappy scaffolding sets that take ages to set up. Oh, and “arsenal” is hugely perjorative, those of us who just like to enjoy our ladders find that language quite offensive.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,517
    MattW said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    kjh said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s being claimed rally goers spotted Thomas Crooks TWENTY FIVE MINUTES before he shot. They called out to police. Police did nothing. There is video of it

    https://x.com/health00810/status/1813011010829361624?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Either this is the greatest failure by anything ever anywhere since Creation, or some faction of the cops was involved

    It seems pretty bloody obvious to me, and he wasn't exactly subtle.

    At the very least Trump should have delayed /got off the stage until it was checked out.

    It's worth remembering it's only by a real fluke, and an inch or so, that he isn't dead.
    No one warned Trump for HALF AN HOUR

    This looks increasingly like - at the least - some kind of co-ordinated attempt on Trump’s life, if only by utter negligence. They wanted him dead
    Cock-up is far far more likely than conspiracy.
    It’s almost always so.

    It’s a massive cockup not to have delayed the event though, if they knew there was someone suspicious with a rangefinder and a packback in the close vicinity of the venue and only 150yds from the stage.

    The inquiry is going to be all the different groups of police blaming each other. Apparently six different LEAs involved, plus local private security. The FBI will be pleased to be the lead agency running the investigation, that way they’re least likely to have to take any of the blame.

    One can well imagine someone of means stepping forward to fund a class action lawsuit on behalf of the victims, although the fundraisers for them are already well into the millions of dollars.
    Weird-looking people with assault rifles are the core Trump demographic. You can't shut down a whole event just because you see one of them, it would be like evacuating the LibDem Party Conference if you saw someone wearing sandals.
    Ha ha I’ll give you that.

    In the early days of Trump rallies, they actually had to keep making a point of telling everyone to leave their guns at home, as everyone gets searched on the way in (by local security, supervised by the USSS).

    The problem here, was that the area where the shooter was seen was outside the official perimeter, but still close enough to get a good view, so there were a lot of people hanging around that area rather than actually going in to the event.
    Lying on the roof of the building I think was the big give away which was spotted by dozens well in advance and is on film.
    And people might well be recalling the G8 in 2008, when the Secret Service nearly opened fire on local police snipers who had taken position on a rooftop under their control without informing the Secret Service. Apparently.

    Which might lead to the following sort of conversation:

    "There's a gunman on that roof!"
    SS: "Is that under the local (whatever PD control?"
    "Yes."
    SS: "Okay, it's one of theirs. Don't fire."

    Which is stupid but understandable. You can make it less stupid with:

    "There's a gunman on that roof!"
    "Is that under the local (whatever PD control?"
    "Should be."
    "Okay, contact them and ask them if it's one of their."
    Then the usual comms and organisational snafus occur.

    Such as:
    SS; "Do you have anyone on top of building X?"
    Agency A: "Which building's that?"
    SS: "The one at the corner of Y and Z."
    Agency A: "Ah, the book depository. No, that's Agency B's area."
    SS hangs up and calls Agency B
    Agency B: "Sure, that's our building. I don't think we have anyone up there, but that's Bill's area. I'll just get him..."

    And the minutes roll by....

    Edit: I would hope their processes were better than that. But however good the SS's processes, many of these small local PDs won't have the same experience or institutional knowledge.
    There's quite a lot in that - the USA has 18,000 police agencies, of which 15000+ are local police forces of one sort or another - quite a number perhaps run by a 2024 version of Sheriff Roscoe P Coltrane, with a machine gun and a de-militarised armoured car.
    I was going to point out their use of armoured tracked vehicles but checked my facts, despite being on PB, and Sheriff Coltrane apparently had to turn in his M113 some years back.

    https://tankandafvnews.com/2015/11/28/police-m113-gallery/

    Though with the current designs of wheeled AFVs I'm not sure it makes much difference whether the municipal AFV is a track or an armoured car.
    "checked my facts, despite being on PB" :lol:
    I didn't say tracked. Checked facts are not necessarily in the correct direction :smile: .

    They have a lot of MRAP type vehicles, amongst others, of the type left over after the military has pivoted from Afghanistan type operations to more traditional military ones.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/05/why-are-some-us-police-forces-equipped-like-military-units

    Anyway, there was on Die Hard so it must be true!
    IIRC under Obama there was some attempt to wind back some of the crazier transfers - such as tracked armoured vehicles.

    Many of them have dropped out of use - the transfer was virtually free, but maintenance on such vehicles is specialised and expensive.

    Many have switched to specialist vehicles like this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terradyne_Armored_Vehicles_Gurkha
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,551
    TOPPING said:

    Anyone who has spent the slightest amount of time watching "24hrs in A&E" will know that if you want to avoid injury and in particular you are an older white bloke then you should avoid ladders at all costs.

    My fav A&E story was a guy I met when I was taking one of my son's friends to hospital on a Friday night, The man was waiting after a recent injury flared up. He said:

    "I was moving a fish tank when it fell onto me. I broke some ribs and ripped my sternum." A pause, then a wheezing laugh. "Of course, I should have emptied the tank before moving it..."
This discussion has been closed.