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Is France about to surrender to the far right? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,872
edited July 4 in General
Is France about to surrender to the far right? – politicalbetting.com

??Political earthquake in France. Le Pen’s hard-right party and allies have won a massive lead in first-round parliamentary voting. Early results from @IpsosFrance give the RN 34%. This means it could, possibly, win a majority in the 577-seat National Assembly on July 7th 1/ pic.twitter.com/9GRpD8f6G7

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,512
    First?
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,442
    Three massive elections.

    Finbarr Saunders would be proud...
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,915
    All that British blood and treasure invested in getting the extreme right out of France on D-Day.

    And this is how they repay us?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,512
    kyf_100 said:

    Three massive elections.

    Finbarr Saunders would be proud...

    You need to get your mind out of the gutter, the full sentence is clear

    because I cannot handle three massive elections at the same time.

    Fun fact, at university I was given the nickname Finbarr, which has stuck with me ever since.
  • Options
    kyf_100 said:

    Why is Starmer also going to bring in Sunaks Crazy plan for more business for drug dealers by banning anyone born after 2009 from buying cigs?

    Labour's natural instinct is to regulate, tax, or ban. In this respect, the present Conservatives haven't been much better.
    This is why I think they will go the same way as the Tories in five years. Their reforms and actions will just compound the problems we have because it will be the same errors as the Tories with knobs on.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,436

    kyf_100 said:

    Three massive elections.

    Finbarr Saunders would be proud...

    You need to get your mind out of the gutter, the full sentence is clear

    because I cannot handle three massive elections at the same time.

    Fun fact, at university I was given the nickname Finbarr, which has stuck with me ever since.
    I need to ask why?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,472
    Jordan Bardella is giving a speech pitching for the job of Prime Minister.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,915
    Ing-er-lund!!!!

    Bring on the Toblerones...
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 19,397
    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,383
    Never had a doubt!

    2-1
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,811
    FPT.

    Projected on turnout numbers.
    65-85 elected on first round.
    150-170 head-to-heads in second round.
    285-315 three-way contests.

    Projected to qualify.

    RN 390-430
    NFP 370-410
    Ensemble 290-330
    LR/DVD 70-90.
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,523
    Phew
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,287
    edited June 30
    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,634
    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,084

    Never had a doubt!

    2-1

    Name on the trophy 🙂🙂
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,322
    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    They'll probably burn some sheep or something. Its what they do.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,472
    edited June 30
    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    Le Pen is taking the RN from being a protest movement to being the natural party of government.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,484
    Un jour parfait. A win for England and Le Pen
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,593
    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,512
    edited June 30

    kyf_100 said:

    Three massive elections.

    Finbarr Saunders would be proud...

    You need to get your mind out of the gutter, the full sentence is clear

    because I cannot handle three massive elections at the same time.

    Fun fact, at university I was given the nickname Finbarr, which has stuck with me ever since.
    I need to ask why?
    I arrived at university as a pious Muslim, so was a bit of an innocent, and I inadvertently made a few innuendos because of my innocence.
  • Options
    Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 433

    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    Le Pen is taking the RN from being a protest movement to being the natural party of government.
    They have to win first.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,270
    edited June 30
    What a great big cry baby he is. Farage would be proud.

    Reform UK’s chairman Richard Tice claimed Reform candidates were being offered jobs and inducements “to persuade them to talk badly of Reform, stand down and then endorse the Tory candidate".

    He said there were “dark forces at play by desperate Tories”.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgk44k4mzxo
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,811

    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    Le Pen is taking the RN from being a protest movement to being the natural party of government.
    Eh?
    They need to get in government first.
    Which they haven't yet done.
    Then have many decades in power.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,590

    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    Le Pen is taking the RN from being a protest movement to being the natural party of government.
    "Natural" party of government. When it comes to right wing rhetoric you are very melodramatic.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,196

    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    Le Pen is taking the RN from being a protest movement to being the natural party of government.
    Le Pen winning would be a good thing just to watch Roger squirm about a country he loves
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,811
    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    Yes but. The NFP isn't just Melenchon. It's far from a one man band.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,270
    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    Interesting if so. Le Pen has been at this a long time and has made inroads into more mainstream political positions and doing things like expelling her own dad. Is it just a bit too late for her personally to benefit (the next presidentials are some way off) even if the party may now be about to breakthrough?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,038
    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,062

    kyf_100 said:

    Why is Starmer also going to bring in Sunaks Crazy plan for more business for drug dealers by banning anyone born after 2009 from buying cigs?

    Labour's natural instinct is to regulate, tax, or ban. In this respect, the present Conservatives haven't been much better.
    This is why I think they will go the same way as the Tories in five years. Their reforms and actions will just compound the problems we have because it will be the same errors as the Tories with knobs on.
    Of course you do. And I think you are utterly self-deluded.

    We will see.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,576
    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Let's climb that mountain when we comté it
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,109
    My gut is that the French legislature is going to be a mess after this, because most EM voters will go Popular Front in the second round, while most LR voters will go RN. That almost certainly leaves the RN as the largest party by a margin, but on a similar number of seats to PF + EM.

    It's 289 for a majority, and I suspect RN will end up on about 250-260, with 160-170 for the Popular Front and 80-90 for En Marche. And the remainder being a few Les Republicans, far leftists and the like.

    It's *possible* that RN + LR is 289, but Les Republicans could easily end up with a dozen seats or less. In which case, I really can't see any coalition that gets to 289.
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    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,727

    Ing-er-lund!!!!

    Bring on the Toblerones...

    I'm worried about what the Swiss will do to England with their Toblerones. Big, hard and triangular. Ouch.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 50,484
    edited June 30

    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    Le Pen is taking the RN from being a protest movement to being the natural party of government.
    "Natural" party of government. When it comes to right wing rhetoric you are very melodramatic.
    Le Pen is the current favourite for President

    And, as @foxy correctly noted earlier today, she’s isn’t even far right, really. More like UKIP or Reform but a bit tougher on migration and with extra socialist economic policies

    If you want French far right you can certainly get it. Zemmour
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,038
    Leon said:

    Un jour parfait. A win for England and Le Pen

    More of a melange than a parfait.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,945
    kle4 said:

    What a great big cry baby he is. Farage would be proud.

    Reform UK’s chairman Richard Tice claimed Reform candidates were being offered jobs and inducements “to persuade them to talk badly of Reform, stand down and then endorse the Tory candidate".

    He said there were “dark forces at play by desperate Tories”.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgk44k4mzxo

    They are being offered inducements. Puppies, fitted Schreiber kitchens, ex showroom Nissans, all sorts
    Dark dark forces at play
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,652
    David Starkey on Labour's Plans to End Parliamentary Democracy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46z0obe-Tig

    Starts at 8pm. Don't say you weren't warned. Or that all historians are bonkers.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,062
    Leon said:

    Un jour parfait. A win for England and Le Pen

    She hasn’t won yet. It’s half-time.

    And a reminder to one and all that Mr Leon would have sacked Southgate and Kane. The chutzpah of the guy knows no bounds.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,109
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    Le Pen is taking the RN from being a protest movement to being the natural party of government.
    "Natural" party of government. When it comes to right wing rhetoric you are very melodramatic.
    Le Pen is the current favourite for President

    And, as @foxy correctly noted earlier today, she’s isn’t even far right, really. More like UKIP with extra socialist economic policies

    If you want French far right you can certainly get it. Zemmour
    I think she's more Johnson than UKIP: her party has even dropped the Euro referendum plan.

    Where she is "Far Right" is her historic support for Putin.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,270
    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    Le Pen is taking the RN from being a protest movement to being the natural party of government.
    Eh?
    They need to get in government first.
    Which they haven't yet done.
    Then have many decades in power.
    I think the implication was he expects they will be the main centre right option from now on, but given how some of the other parties have fallen or risen, that seems a bit much to predict.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,727
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    Interesting if so. Le Pen has been at this a long time and has made inroads into more mainstream political positions and doing things like expelling her own dad. Is it just a bit too late for her personally to benefit (the next presidentials are some way off) even if the party may now be about to breakthrough?
    Le Pen is only 55, so not necessarily.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,945
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Un jour parfait. A win for England and Le Pen

    She hasn’t won yet. It’s half-time.

    And a reminder to one and all that Mr Leon would have sacked Southgate and Kane. The chutzpah of the guy knows no bounds.
    I'd sack Southgate before the quarters. Stick Neil Warnock in there
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,811
    After that 2 1/2 hours it's time for a change of activity.
    Time for some football.
    Georgia v Spain.
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    SteveSSteveS Posts: 138

    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Let's climb that mountain when we comté it
    Oh briehave

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,472
    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    Interesting if so. Le Pen has been at this a long time and has made inroads into more mainstream political positions and doing things like expelling her own dad. Is it just a bit too late for her personally to benefit (the next presidentials are some way off) even if the party may now be about to breakthrough?
    Le Pen is only 55, so not necessarily.
    A possibility is that Bardella becomes a popular PM and there is a groundswell for him to be the presidential candidate instead of Le Pen.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,109
    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,308
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    Le Pen is taking the RN from being a protest movement to being the natural party of government.
    "Natural" party of government. When it comes to right wing rhetoric you are very melodramatic.
    Le Pen is the current favourite for President

    And, as @foxy correctly noted earlier today, she’s isn’t even far right, really. More like UKIP with extra socialist economic policies

    If you want French far right you can certainly get it. Zemmour
    I think she's more Johnson than UKIP: her party has even dropped the Euro referendum plan.

    Where she is "Far Right" is her historic support for Putin.
    Key reason why PB Putin-puppets love her so much.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,635
    The result in France has major ramifications for the UK, the Bank of England has warned that Le Pen’s plans will lead to a Liz Truss style economic disaster that would impact the UK economy which would be sub-optimal for Sir Keir Starmer.

    Whereas:

    The Popular Front has promised to scrap the pension and immigration reforms passed by the current government, to set up a rescue agency for undocumented migrants and to facilitate visa applications.

    It also wants to put caps on basic goods to combat the cost of living crisis and raise the minimum wage.


    Would likely be worse than Le Pen economically.

    France now has the problem that a large majority now support some form of extremism.
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    Is there a majority for the RN and allies without some other right-wing support? Not at the moment but it looks possible in a second round. Mme Le Pen has carefully tacked to the more orthodix right compared to her father. Moving onto the territory of a corrupt and exhausted traditional right. Frexit was one of the first casualties. Of course we shall see how genuine the rebranding was if the RN assumes power and Le Pen's deputies have to satisfy their supporters.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,109

    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Let's climb that mountain when we comté it
    More like, we'll burn that bridge when when we come to it.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,512
    So if England don't win the Euros it'll be because of the curse of Jonah Starmer.

    England were unbeaten at Euro 2024 under the Tories.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,270
    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    Interesting if so. Le Pen has been at this a long time and has made inroads into more mainstream political positions and doing things like expelling her own dad. Is it just a bit too late for her personally to benefit (the next presidentials are some way off) even if the party may now be about to breakthrough?
    Le Pen is only 55, so not necessarily.
    I don't mean late as in her age, but whether having tried 3 times already whether a younger candidate for the party may be chosen, as would be the case for the PM position.

    Her previous finishes first round and (second)

    2012 17.9 (NA)
    2017 21.3 (33.9)
    2022 23.2 (41.5)
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,081
    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Well, time will Tell.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,811
    Live French results page according to Interior Ministry here.

    https://www.liberation.fr/resultats-elections/
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    LeonLeon Posts: 50,484
    rcs1000 said:

    My gut is that the French legislature is going to be a mess after this, because most EM voters will go Popular Front in the second round, while most LR voters will go RN. That almost certainly leaves the RN as the largest party by a margin, but on a similar number of seats to PF + EM.

    It's 289 for a majority, and I suspect RN will end up on about 250-260, with 160-170 for the Popular Front and 80-90 for En Marche. And the remainder being a few Les Republicans, far leftists and the like.

    It's *possible* that RN + LR is 289, but Les Republicans could easily end up with a dozen seats or less. In which case, I really can't see any coalition that gets to 289.

    Macron’s gamble has - potentially - backfired spectacularly

    The worst possible outcome for him was arguably a win for RN but not big enough for RN to be the government - just a massive pain in the arse stopping macron doing anything

    Then at the next presidential election Le Pen can claim “we need real power, not this mess” - the nation agrees and she wins easily
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,843
    So Southgate outlasts Sunak...
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,913

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    The country makes a fresh start on Thursday.
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    TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 718

    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Let's climb that mountain when we comté it
    It's really about who Southgate decides to play at Third Man.
  • Options

    The result in France has major ramifications for the UK, the Bank of England has warned that Le Pen’s plans will lead to a Liz Truss style economic disaster that would impact the UK economy which would be sub-optimal for Sir Keir Starmer.

    Whereas:

    The Popular Front has promised to scrap the pension and immigration reforms passed by the current government, to set up a rescue agency for undocumented migrants and to facilitate visa applications.

    It also wants to put caps on basic goods to combat the cost of living crisis and raise the minimum wage.


    Would likely be worse than Le Pen economically.

    France now has the problem that a large majority now support some form of extremism.

    They are further along the road of.

    "We all know what to do, but we don’t know how to get re-elected once we have done it."

    Juncker.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,635
    edited June 30
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,817

    David Starkey on Labour's Plans to End Parliamentary Democracy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46z0obe-Tig

    Starts at 8pm. Don't say you weren't warned. Or that all historians are bonkers.

    Starkey is pretty bonkers though.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,484
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    No. France is a country of protest. It means nothing. It's just a moan

    Le Pen is taking the RN from being a protest movement to being the natural party of government.
    "Natural" party of government. When it comes to right wing rhetoric you are very melodramatic.
    Le Pen is the current favourite for President

    And, as @foxy correctly noted earlier today, she’s isn’t even far right, really. More like UKIP with extra socialist economic policies

    If you want French far right you can certainly get it. Zemmour
    I think she's more Johnson than UKIP: her party has even dropped the Euro referendum plan.

    Where she is "Far Right" is her historic support for Putin.
    Boris tripled immigration - so, no
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,913

    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Let's climb that mountain when we comté it
    Pedantly, that’s French, not Swiss
  • Options
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    My gut is that the French legislature is going to be a mess after this, because most EM voters will go Popular Front in the second round, while most LR voters will go RN. That almost certainly leaves the RN as the largest party by a margin, but on a similar number of seats to PF + EM.

    It's 289 for a majority, and I suspect RN will end up on about 250-260, with 160-170 for the Popular Front and 80-90 for En Marche. And the remainder being a few Les Republicans, far leftists and the like.

    It's *possible* that RN + LR is 289, but Les Republicans could easily end up with a dozen seats or less. In which case, I really can't see any coalition that gets to 289.

    Macron’s gamble has - potentially - backfired spectacularly

    The worst possible outcome for him was arguably a win for RN but not big enough for RN to be the government - just a massive pain in the arse stopping macron doing anything

    Then at the next presidential election Le Pen can claim “we need real power, not this mess” - the nation agrees and she wins easily
    Yes he needs Le Pen to be Prime minister so he can hobble her in the same way that Mugabe did when Morgan Tsvangarai became prime minister and discredit her by the next presidential elections.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,287
    .
    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    I wouldn't describe, for example, Le Pen comparing Muslims living in France to the Nazi occupation as "moderate"
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,811
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Let's climb that mountain when we comté it
    Pedantly, that’s French, not Swiss
    Pedantically that's pedantically.
  • Options

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,472
    French politicians calling for people to vote for whichever candidate is against the RN sound completely out of touch.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,913
    dixiedean said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Let's climb that mountain when we comté it
    Pedantly, that’s French, not Swiss
    Pedantically that's pedantically.
    Yes, I know. I was just trying to save the language a few letters.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,811
    R5L with boring interviews, rather than the live commentary of Spain v Georgia as promised.
    Grrr!
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    David Starkey on Labour's Plans to End Parliamentary Democracy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46z0obe-Tig

    Starts at 8pm. Don't say you weren't warned. Or that all historians are bonkers.

    Unless he replaces the Lords with PR elected senate AND repeals the Parliament Act as it can all be thrown out by a future govenment with primary legislation, providing they have the cojones to withdraw from the ECHR.

    One of Thatchers finest moments was when she lost a ruling in the (Judicial) House of Laws, reacting by promptly passing primary legislation to overthrow the ruling.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,635

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,100

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    It doesn’t suit the conservatives of SCOTUS to sustain Trump. He’s a useful tool for the conservative majority, but the last thing they want is for their power to be curtailed vs an authoritarian executive.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,270

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    With these Justices nearly anything is possible, plenty of constitutional courts in the world have ignored the niceties of term limits for candidates they back, but I think it is meant to be pretty clear it relates to being elected to office overall, not restrictions on consecutive terms.

    I think people have proposed weird convolutions such as a former president being made vice-president somehow and then succeeed the presidency later. Trump himself has certainly 'joked' about such things.

    Trump would be older than Biden is now if he was up for a third term, and he's unstable now, even his fans comparing him to Jesus might begin to have second thoughts.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 50,484

    French politicians calling for people to vote for whichever candidate is against the RN sound completely out of touch.

    Yes. Has it not occurred to them that a lot of French people actually like Le Pen’s policies - and want much lower immigration and a firmer grip on Islamism? (France has suffered from this more than any other European nation)

    That is their democratic choice. Trying to foil it with games and duplicity cannot work forever and is probably now counter productive
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,489
    Georgia playing for pens.
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,100

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    My gut is that the French legislature is going to be a mess after this, because most EM voters will go Popular Front in the second round, while most LR voters will go RN. That almost certainly leaves the RN as the largest party by a margin, but on a similar number of seats to PF + EM.

    It's 289 for a majority, and I suspect RN will end up on about 250-260, with 160-170 for the Popular Front and 80-90 for En Marche. And the remainder being a few Les Republicans, far leftists and the like.

    It's *possible* that RN + LR is 289, but Les Republicans could easily end up with a dozen seats or less. In which case, I really can't see any coalition that gets to 289.

    Macron’s gamble has - potentially - backfired spectacularly

    The worst possible outcome for him was arguably a win for RN but not big enough for RN to be the government - just a massive pain in the arse stopping macron doing anything

    Then at the next presidential election Le Pen can claim “we need real power, not this mess” - the nation agrees and she wins easily
    Yes he needs Le Pen to be Prime minister so he can hobble her in the same way that Mugabe did when Morgan Tsvangarai became prime minister and discredit her by the next presidential elections.
    Le Pen will not be PM. She has already deferred to Bardella. She is going for President in 2027.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 12,228
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Un jour parfait. A win for England and Le Pen

    She hasn’t won yet. It’s half-time.

    And a reminder to one and all that Mr Leon would have sacked Southgate and Kane. The chutzpah of the guy knows no bounds.
    You're in the "stick with Southgate and Kane" camp? After that shite?

    England still haven't faced a side with more than 10% of England's population yet. Squeezing past Slovakia is not a triumph.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,270

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    It doesn’t suit the conservatives of SCOTUS to sustain Trump. He’s a useful tool for the conservative majority, but the last thing they want is for their power to be curtailed vs an authoritarian executive.
    Yes, they enjoy more sustained power than a President in that sense. On smaller issues the Court will act more or less as intended, and on the big political issues they broadly follow their partisan lines, so they will side with him naturally much of the time, but they still have their own agendas. It's one thing he was frustrated by last time, given he expects total loyalty from those he appointed to do whatever he wants, and didn't get it. But they've helped him out by slow rolling some recent cases.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,696

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    Although with this mob of chancers, losers and crooks that’s no guarantee.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,322
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    My gut is that the French legislature is going to be a mess after this, because most EM voters will go Popular Front in the second round, while most LR voters will go RN. That almost certainly leaves the RN as the largest party by a margin, but on a similar number of seats to PF + EM.

    It's 289 for a majority, and I suspect RN will end up on about 250-260, with 160-170 for the Popular Front and 80-90 for En Marche. And the remainder being a few Les Republicans, far leftists and the like.

    It's *possible* that RN + LR is 289, but Les Republicans could easily end up with a dozen seats or less. In which case, I really can't see any coalition that gets to 289.

    Macron’s gamble has - potentially - backfired spectacularly

    The worst possible outcome for him was arguably a win for RN but not big enough for RN to be the government - just a massive pain in the arse stopping macron doing anything

    Then at the next presidential election Le Pen can claim “we need real power, not this mess” - the nation agrees and she wins easily
    If only Rishi had spent a bit more time at the D Day commerations they could have consoled each other on disastrous choices.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,235
    France24 English-language coverage of the elections:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dyzgDj5h9g
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,696

    kyf_100 said:

    Three massive elections.

    Finbarr Saunders would be proud...

    You need to get your mind out of the gutter, the full sentence is clear

    because I cannot handle three massive elections at the same time.

    Fun fact, at university I was given the nickname Finbarr, which has stuck with me ever since.
    I need to ask why?
    I would have thought that it would be easier than two. That’s two hard.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,913
    Cookie said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Un jour parfait. A win for England and Le Pen

    She hasn’t won yet. It’s half-time.

    And a reminder to one and all that Mr Leon would have sacked Southgate and Kane. The chutzpah of the guy knows no bounds.
    You're in the "stick with Southgate and Kane" camp? After that shite?

    England still haven't faced a side with more than 10% of England's population yet. Squeezing past Slovakia is not a triumph.
    Up until the last minute, it felt like it was going to be a fitting epitaph for Tory England.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,109

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    According to Trump, he's already won two consecutive terms.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,693

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    So the theoretical max is ten years minus a day?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,270

    French politicians calling for people to vote for whichever candidate is against the RN sound completely out of touch.

    It's worked up until now. Politicians are generally not great at spotting the precise moment the old moves stop working.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,593
    FF43 said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    I wouldn't describe, for example, Le Pen comparing Muslims living in France to the Nazi occupation as "moderate"
    It’s all relative. Melenchon hates Jews and Germans, and loves Putin.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,322

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    So, since Trump won in 2016 and 2020 he is clearly banned.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,484

    The result in France has major ramifications for the UK, the Bank of England has warned that Le Pen’s plans will lead to a Liz Truss style economic disaster that would impact the UK economy which would be sub-optimal for Sir Keir Starmer.

    Whereas:

    The Popular Front has promised to scrap the pension and immigration reforms passed by the current government, to set up a rescue agency for undocumented migrants and to facilitate visa applications.

    It also wants to put caps on basic goods to combat the cost of living crisis and raise the minimum wage.


    Would likely be worse than Le Pen economically.

    France now has the problem that a large majority now support some form of extremism.

    Yes. And this is another reason why - this time - centre right voters are not going to meekly obey instructions to vote for the far left to stop Le Pen

    The far left in France is fucking nuts
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,661
    Starkey is spot on about SCOTUK's judgement against Surrey CC
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,452
    kle4 said:

    What a great big cry baby he is. Farage would be proud.

    Reform UK’s chairman Richard Tice claimed Reform candidates were being offered jobs and inducements “to persuade them to talk badly of Reform, stand down and then endorse the Tory candidate".

    He said there were “dark forces at play by desperate Tories”.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgk44k4mzxo

    Perhaps you should take your own advice and be less of a crybaby yourself. Every post I see from you about Reform lately has the same sulky pettishness. What do you expect them to say if the Tories bribe their candidates to stand aside - 'Oh, OK then'?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,270
    Barnesian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    According to Trump, he's already won two consecutive terms.
    Yes, but he was illegally prevented from serving his second one by, you know, the election and the law, so he gets another go.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,634

    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Let's climb that mountain when we comté it
    It's really about who Southgate decides to play at Third Man.
    Harry Lime?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,484
    PB I need your advice. I’ve got one more day in st malo (which is of course gorgeous - why didn’t we rebuild Exeter and Coventry and derby and and and SOB)

    So where do I go? Dinard for the beauty or Cancale for the oysters? I adore oysters so I think I should make a pilgrimage to the oyster capital of the world BUT Dinard is said to be lovely…
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    With these Justices nearly anything is possible, plenty of constitutional courts in the world have ignored the niceties of term limits for candidates they back, but I think it is meant to be pretty clear it relates to being elected to office overall, not restrictions on consecutive terms.

    I think people have proposed weird convolutions such as a former president being made vice-president somehow and then succeeed the presidency later. Trump himself has certainly 'joked' about such things.

    Trump would be older than Biden is now if he was up for a third term, and he's unstable now, even his fans comparing him to Jesus might begin to have second thoughts.
    By the sound of it, someone having quoted the second amendment, it would need judicial gymnastics almost on the scale of Roe V Wade to achieve.

    That is the shining example of how unelected judges creatively twisting a constitution to overrule elected assemblies poisons the country.

    Had parliament failed to pass the 1967 Act, then had it imposed by the ECJ or ECHR over parliaments head, we would have seen far more poisonous culture wars than we have had.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,109
    kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    According to Trump, he's already won two consecutive terms.
    Yes, but he was illegally prevented from serving his second one by, you know, the election and the law, so he gets another go.
    The constitution says "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice." It doesn't mention serve.

    Someone should ask Trump if he agrees that he has been elected to the office of President twice.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,512
    Pulpstar said:

    Starkey is spot on about SCOTUK's judgement against Surrey CC

    This was SCOTUS's decision (3-2 IIRC) about the meaning of the government's own laws. From this there is no appeal of course - things have to end somewhere - but nothing prevents parliament overturning it with legislation.

    IANAE but maybe the laws/regulations were not drafted very well? When drafting laws/regulations if you want to exclude or include a particular rational interpretation you need to use clear language.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,635
    carnforth said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    So the theoretical max is ten years minus a day?
    Yes, as an example LBJ was eligible to stand again in 1968.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,811
    Georgia!!!
This discussion has been closed.