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Is France about to surrender to the far right? – politicalbetting.com

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,569
    GEORGIA!!!!!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,526
    As someone with near-zero interest in football, it's amusing to see England win to get through to the quarter-finals, yet people are whinging as though we'd just been drubbed 87.3-nil.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058

    Georgia playing for pens.

    Well they're not now!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,378
    I see Southgate has hot footed across and is now managing Spain too.
  • Leon said:

    The result in France has major ramifications for the UK, the Bank of England has warned that Le Pen’s plans will lead to a Liz Truss style economic disaster that would impact the UK economy which would be sub-optimal for Sir Keir Starmer.

    Whereas:

    The Popular Front has promised to scrap the pension and immigration reforms passed by the current government, to set up a rescue agency for undocumented migrants and to facilitate visa applications.

    It also wants to put caps on basic goods to combat the cost of living crisis and raise the minimum wage.


    Would likely be worse than Le Pen economically.

    France now has the problem that a large majority now support some form of extremism.

    Yes. And this is another reason why - this time - centre right voters are not going to meekly obey instructions to vote for the far left to stop Le Pen

    The far left in France is fucking nuts
    When have the French centre-right ever voted far left to keep Le Pen out? They voted for Chirac and Macron - hardly Stalin and Trotsky! I have no doubt most of the right will vote with Le Pen and if the centre stay home then that will be enough. The French are facing their 2019 - an election with two horrible choices where whichever choice they make a disaster looms. At least the French Corbyn will be too old to be relevant when the dust settles.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,363
    Georgia: better at rugby union than Wales, better than Spain at football.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,569
    The cross of St George rules once more.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,809
    IanB2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Un jour parfait. A win for England and Le Pen

    She hasn’t won yet. It’s half-time.

    And a reminder to one and all that Mr Leon would have sacked Southgate and Kane. The chutzpah of the guy knows no bounds.
    You're in the "stick with Southgate and Kane" camp? After that shite?

    England still haven't faced a side with more than 10% of England's population yet. Squeezing past Slovakia is not a triumph.
    Up until the last minute, it felt like it was going to be a fitting epitaph for Tory England.
    of course its nothing to do with Tory England - Its a football game
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,316
    Leon said:

    PB I need your advice. I’ve got one more day in st malo (which is of course gorgeous - why didn’t we rebuild Exeter and Coventry and derby and and and SOB)

    So where do I go? Dinard for the beauty or Cancale for the oysters? I adore oysters so I think I should make a pilgrimage to the oyster capital of the world BUT Dinard is said to be lovely…

    Dinard. I spent two wonderful holidays there as a kid.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Leon said:

    PB I need your advice. I’ve got one more day in st malo (which is of course gorgeous - why didn’t we rebuild Exeter and Coventry and derby and and and SOB)

    So where do I go? Dinard for the beauty or Cancale for the oysters? I adore oysters so I think I should make a pilgrimage to the oyster capital of the world BUT Dinard is said to be lovely…

    Rotheneuf. You can go learn about Jacques Cartier and his Canadian explorations.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    edited June 30

    kle4 said:

    What a great big cry baby he is. Farage would be proud.

    Reform UK’s chairman Richard Tice claimed Reform candidates were being offered jobs and inducements “to persuade them to talk badly of Reform, stand down and then endorse the Tory candidate".

    He said there were “dark forces at play by desperate Tories”.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgk44k4mzxo

    Perhaps you should take your own advice and be less of a crybaby yourself. Every post I see from you about Reform lately has the same sulky pettishness. What do you expect them to say if the Tories bribe their candidates to stand aside - 'Oh, OK then'?
    I'm not presenting myself as a candidate for parliament or recently as leader of a political party, it is laughable that you think I need to hold myself to the same standard as Tice. Despite my avatar I've never pretended to be neutral either. His reference to dark forces is why he is a crybaby, because that language is trying to make it some terrible dark force.

    And whilst I make a lot of posts so I don't expect people to remember them all, I've many times said things such as that Farage comes across as charismatic and likeable (though I personally do not like him), and as a supporter of PR I would welcome them to have representation in Parliament. I read their entire manifesto and rated it a B-, saying it was short, straightforward, and appealing to many disaffected Tories, and was the most distinct of the main parties. At the recent hustings I attended I noted the Reform candidate was far more low key than more controverisal Reform candidates reported on nationally or locally.

    I don't know why people taking shots at Reform gets you so personally upset, but if you think the above is being a crybaby I will have to disagree. I have looked deeply at their policies, not treated all their candidates with the same brush, and mainly criticised their leaders.

    The only thing I've gotten harsh with them on recently is Farage simping for Putin, and I stand by that.

    I just don't like party leaders and politicians whining, and I apply that across the board - I said Boris and Sunak criticis who do so anonynously are whingers, I criticsed the anonymous briefers against Corbyn, and I dismiss it when Sunak blames 'everything' on Truss or Boris or, laughably, Labour.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,513
    We are all Georgians tonight, Comrade Stalin.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345
    carnforth said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    So the theoretical max is ten years minus a day?
    Yes.

    So the only Presidents since Roosevelt who could have served more than two terms were Truman (grandfathered out) and Johnson (so unpopular he would have been primaried).

    Ford, even had he been re-elected, would not have been eligible in 1980 as he served 2 years 5 months from August 1974.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    As someone with near-zero interest in football, it's amusing to see England win to get through to the quarter-finals, yet people are whinging as though we'd just been drubbed 87.3-nil.

    In this game England's luck was something else. The sort of luck the Tories need to romp home with an increased majority.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,224
    So who has the worse choice in their coming election: the French or the Americans?

    Actually I'll answer that myself. Despite everything Biden is clearly a less bad choice than Trump, Le Pen or Melenchon.

    But, to coin a phrase, what a basket of deplorables.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    I wouldn't describe, for example, Le Pen comparing Muslims living in France to the Nazi occupation as "moderate"
    It’s all relative. Melenchon hates Jews and Germans, and loves Putin.
    Without in any way defending Melenchon, if we are going to be relative about it I would say Melenchon has never managed to be quite as fascist as Le Pen and also point out the NFP alliance that Melenchon has signed up to has a significantly stronger position on Ukraine than Le Pen's party.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,469
    edited June 30
    Leon said:

    PB I need your advice. I’ve got one more day in st malo (which is of course gorgeous - why didn’t we rebuild Exeter and Coventry and derby and and and SOB)

    So where do I go? Dinard for the beauty or Cancale for the oysters? I adore oysters so I think I should make a pilgrimage to the oyster capital of the world BUT Dinard is said to be lovely…

    Dinard. You should have gone over the weekend as good fun bars and the Casino etc but still a lovely beach to overlook from a nice bar.

    Edit to add, you can drop the car off in st malo and get the sea bus between St Malo and Dinard so you can indulge and not worry about drink driving.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,166
    If we beat Georgia in the final, Sam Matterface can shout “Joseph Stalin, can you hear me?!”
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    Pulpstar said:

    Switzerland are going to slaughter us.

    Just saying.

    We'll have to find the holes in their defense
    Let's climb that mountain when we comté it
    It's really about who Southgate decides to play at Third Man.
    Harry Lime?
    I do love me that rhyming slang.

    Ther lads fought Sarfgate ad blown it, but 'e won in 'arry Lime.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    maxh said:

    So who has the worse choice in their coming election: the French or the Americans?

    Actually I'll answer that myself. Despite everything Biden is clearly a less bad choice than Trump, Le Pen or Melenchon.

    But, to coin a phrase, what a basket of deplorables.

    Neither Le Pen nor Melenchon are candidates to be PM.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,469

    Georgia: better at rugby union than Wales, better than Spain at football.

    Just imagine if all the American States entered the Euros.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,378
    algarkirk said:

    As someone with near-zero interest in football, it's amusing to see England win to get through to the quarter-finals, yet people are whinging as though we'd just been drubbed 87.3-nil.

    In this game England's luck was something else. The sort of luck the Tories need to romp home with an increased majority.
    We werent brilliant, but I’d disagree with saying we were lucky. How many chances did Slovakia have? We hit the post, had a goal (correctly) ruled out for offside and scored an equaliser in injury time, which ironically was 6 minutes, partly because of Slovakian time wasting. We would have had no complaints if we had lost, but we weren’t lucky to go through.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    edited June 30
    I always like it when people complain about anonymous internet posters critiquing the behaviours or language of politicians in intemperate fashion as though that is unfair.

    MPs, or those seeking to become MPs, hold a measure of power over the rest of us, they ask for that power. I do not believe it is hypocritical to hold them to a higher standard than we would hold the average person, even ourselves.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,224
    dixiedean said:

    maxh said:

    So who has the worse choice in their coming election: the French or the Americans?

    Actually I'll answer that myself. Despite everything Biden is clearly a less bad choice than Trump, Le Pen or Melenchon.

    But, to coin a phrase, what a basket of deplorables.

    Neither Le Pen nor Melenchon are candidates to be PM.
    Fair point, lazy phrasing, you get what I mean.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,162
    edited June 30
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    PB I need your advice. I’ve got one more day in st malo (which is of course gorgeous - why didn’t we rebuild Exeter and Coventry and derby and and and SOB)

    So where do I go? Dinard for the beauty or Cancale for the oysters? I adore oysters so I think I should make a pilgrimage to the oyster capital of the world BUT Dinard is said to be lovely…

    Dinard. You should have gone over the weekend as good fun bars and the Casino etc but still a lovely beach to overlook from a nice bar.

    Edit to add, you can drop the car off in st malo and get the sea bus between St Malo and Dinard so you can indulge and not worry about drink driving.
    Yes maybe. Also I can surely get Cancale oysters in Dinard

    The local oysters I had yesterday on Ushant - probably plucked from the beach where I ate them, that same day - were some of the best I have ever had anywhere in the world

    Up there with the Pacific rocks of wapengo NSW Oz and the phenomenal Benguela oysters of Luderitz Namibia

    And Helford natives in the idle rocks hotel St Mawes
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    I wouldn't describe, for example, Le Pen comparing Muslims living in France to the Nazi occupation as "moderate"
    It’s all relative. Melenchon hates Jews and Germans, and loves Putin.
    Without in any way defending Melenchon, if we are going to be relative about it I would say Melenchon has never managed to be quite as fascist as Le Pen and also point out the NFP alliance that Melenchon has signed up to has a significantly stronger position on Ukraine than Le Pen's party.
    Not great when major party leaders have to be judged on a scale of Putin-love, but people and parties can shift distinctly on such matters as they approach mainstream status.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,469
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    PB I need your advice. I’ve got one more day in st malo (which is of course gorgeous - why didn’t we rebuild Exeter and Coventry and derby and and and SOB)

    So where do I go? Dinard for the beauty or Cancale for the oysters? I adore oysters so I think I should make a pilgrimage to the oyster capital of the world BUT Dinard is said to be lovely…

    Dinard. You should have gone over the weekend as good fun bars and the Casino etc but still a lovely beach to overlook from a nice bar.

    Edit to add, you can drop the car off in st malo and get the sea bus between St Malo and Dinard so you can indulge and not worry about drink driving.
    Yes maybe. Also I can surely get Cancale oysters in Dinard
    Have a break from the oysters and just get a dirty big tray of langoustine with proper mayonnaise and crispy bread with a nice bottle of white.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    High turnout in France is encouraging, whatever choices they make. I fear our own election will be historically low, when whether it is expected Labour landslide or remarkable Tory turnaround, LD or Reform rise or perennial disappointment for the third parties, it'd be nice if it was on a good turnout.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,003
    edited June 30
    Now Spain, the important thing is to make absolutely no changes whatsoever. That’s the tactically shrewd thing to do.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited June 30
    dixiedean said:

    maxh said:

    So who has the worse choice in their coming election: the French or the Americans?

    Actually I'll answer that myself. Despite everything Biden is clearly a less bad choice than Trump, Le Pen or Melenchon.

    But, to coin a phrase, what a basket of deplorables.

    Neither Le Pen nor Melenchon are candidates to be PM.
    The Left advantage is that Melenchon is one leader amongst several and somewhat irrelevant in the overall scheme. Unlike Le Pen who essentially owns her party. If you have scruples, it's easier to vote Left

    The Hard Right advantage is they are a coherent party rather than a wildly diverging rag bag. I suspect this advantage will tell.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    I like the BBC write up because you could get the impression that renaming the party was all that was needed to breakthrough.

    From the extreme fringes of French society, this rebranded far-right party is now knocking at the gates of power.

    One of its founders, Pierre Bousquet, was in the Nazi Waffen SS during World War Two, another key official was a collaborator in France's Vichy regime.

    Wind forward to 2002, when Marine Le Pen's father, Jean-Marie Le Pen, made it to the presidential election run-off in 2002 as leader of the National Front.

    France held its breath and less than 18% of voters backed him.

    When France voted for its National Assembly in 2017, the National Front won only eight seats and came third with 13% in the first round.

    A year later Marine Le Pen renamed her party Rassemblement National (National Rally) and in 2022 it won 89 seats, scoring only 18.7% in the first round.

    RN won 31.4% three weeks ago in the European elections, but if tonight's exit poll of 34% is confirmed, just in terms of voter numbers across France, it's unprecedented and historic.

    No wonder Jordan Bardella is calling next Sunday's vote "one of the most decisive in the history of the Fifth Republic".
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,469

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I do love a bit of James, one of the bands that transports back to school days in a good way.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,936
    edited June 30

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    Who would have guessed the festival attendees is dominated by middle aged middle class white people...Coldplay, James, Keane, .....bit of Fat Boy Slim for the after party.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,569
    That sound you can hear is Scotland fans replacing the Slovakia flag with Switzerland’s in their Twitter name.

    https://x.com/paddypower/status/1807488623270297918
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited June 30

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect middle class, middle aged, libdem voting, drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury, smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,513

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    Saw them as support for New Order in about 1984 at the Tower Ballroom, Birmingham (plastic palm trees and all). One of their first gigs.

    Just Like Fred Astaire would be one of my desert island discs.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,936
    edited June 30
    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I was in Bristol the other week, its looking rougher these days in the centre than pre-COVID.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    edited June 30
    Today's County Championship Div 2 scores look like entries for the number of Tory seats competition.
    Glos and Leics both gone for 179.
    Middx 86
    Northants 97
    Sussex 143
    Derbys 76.
    Glamorgan on 133-7. So maybe a little high.
    Yorkshire are bonkers. At 283-5 it looks like they're predicting five more years.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    boulay said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I do love a bit of James, one of the bands that transports back to school days in a good way.
    I was 30 in 1990 when Sit Down came out. They take me back to 2006 when they had a greatest hits album, and I saw them at belladrum.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345
    Also, FPT as it's quite important:

    I have finally tracked down the article that Hitchins was quoting about ‘Russia being provoked.’ It was not easy because not only was what he quoted rather inaccurate but it was so ripped out of context anyway as to actually reverse the meaning of what was said.

    Here are Kagan’s very precise words:

    Although it is obscene to blame the United States for Putin’s inhumane attack on Ukraine, to insist that the invasion was entirely unprovoked is misleading. Just as Pearl Harbor was the consequence of U.S. efforts to blunt Japanese expansion on the Asian mainland, and just as the 9/11 attacks were partly a response to the United States’ dominant presence in the Middle East after the first Gulf War, so Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe. Putin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact

    The thrust of the article is that Putin was provoked by his inability to deal with how much the Russians were hated in their traditional sphere of influence, as demonstrated by the collapse of the Yanukovych government and the desperation of Eastern European states to join NATO as a guarantee against a relapse. He argues that the key provocation was how the United States’ response was clumsy and chaotic leading Russia and now China to think they could keep getting away with their crimes.

    This was of course seized on by Kremlin propagandists and anti-American twits like Hitchins who claimed Kagan said the US provoked the invasion of Ukraine - when in fact he was saying pretty much the exact opposite.

    So basically - Hitchins either lied, or is so stupid he should not be allowed near a keyboard. Or both, of course.

    Full article here (free with registration):

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-06/russia-ukraine-war-price-hegemony
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,569
    Is he going to Vichy?

    That awkward moment when you discover the idyllic bit of rural France where you booked the lovely gîte for this summer just voted massively for the fascists.

    https://x.com/gabrielmilland/status/1807497170477834241
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    .
    Cicero said:

    David Starkey on Labour's Plans to End Parliamentary Democracy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46z0obe-Tig

    Starts at 8pm. Don't say you weren't warned. Or that all historians are bonkers.

    Starkey is pretty bonkers though.
    Starkey staring bonkers.
  • kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,936

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    Saw them as support for New Order in about 1984 at the Tower Ballroom, Birmingham (plastic palm trees and all). One of their first gigs.

    Just Like Fred Astaire would be one of my desert island discs.
    I think you are proving my point from down thread....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    This Georgian goalie is summat else.
    He says as Rhodri equalises.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,936

    Is he going to Vichy?

    That awkward moment when you discover the idyllic bit of rural France where you booked the lovely gîte for this summer just voted massively for the fascists.

    https://x.com/gabrielmilland/status/1807497170477834241

    Did he never look at the voting prior to this? Rural France have been voting for them for years now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    But it has some pretty dodgy areas.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,469

    boulay said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I do love a bit of James, one of the bands that transports back to school days in a good way.
    I was 30 in 1990 when Sit Down came out. They take me back to 2006 when they had a greatest hits album, and I saw them at belladrum.
    They get extra points for introducing a stunning young Keeley Hawes in the video for “Shes a star”.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,963
    edited June 30

    boulay said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I do love a bit of James, one of the bands that transports back to school days in a good way.
    I was 30 in 1990 when Sit Down came out. They take me back to 2006 when they had a greatest hits album, and I saw them at belladrum.
    I was doing gigs at Strathclyde University Union in the early 90s. There is NO WAY I would have sat on that floor...
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I do love a bit of James, one of the bands that transports back to school days in a good way.
    I was 30 in 1990 when Sit Down came out. They take me back to 2006 when they had a greatest hits album, and I saw them at belladrum.
    They get extra points for introducing a stunning young Keeley Hawes in the video for “Shes a star”.
    That I did not know. Will check out.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,316
    ydoethur said:

    Also, FPT as it's quite important:

    I have finally tracked down the article that Hitchins was quoting about ‘Russia being provoked.’ It was not easy because not only was what he quoted rather inaccurate but it was so ripped out of context anyway as to actually reverse the meaning of what was said.

    Here are Kagan’s very precise words:

    Although it is obscene to blame the United States for Putin’s inhumane attack on Ukraine, to insist that the invasion was entirely unprovoked is misleading. Just as Pearl Harbor was the consequence of U.S. efforts to blunt Japanese expansion on the Asian mainland, and just as the 9/11 attacks were partly a response to the United States’ dominant presence in the Middle East after the first Gulf War, so Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe. Putin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact

    The thrust of the article is that Putin was provoked by his inability to deal with how much the Russians were hated in their traditional sphere of influence, as demonstrated by the collapse of the Yanukovych government and the desperation of Eastern European states to join NATO as a guarantee against a relapse. He argues that the key provocation was how the United States’ response was clumsy and chaotic leading Russia and now China to think they could keep getting away with their crimes.

    This was of course seized on by Kremlin propagandists and anti-American twits like Hitchins who claimed Kagan said the US provoked the invasion of Ukraine - when in fact he was saying pretty much the exact opposite.

    So basically - Hitchins either lied, or is so stupid he should not be allowed near a keyboard. Or both, of course.

    Full article here (free with registration):

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-06/russia-ukraine-war-price-hegemony

    Hitchens is not stupid, so one should conclude that he is a deliberate liar.

    One can only speculate as to why he would want to lie for Putin.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,363
    Rodri, the Welsh fellow scores for Spain.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,743
    Cicero said:

    David Starkey on Labour's Plans to End Parliamentary Democracy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46z0obe-Tig

    Starts at 8pm. Don't say you weren't warned. Or that all historians are bonkers.

    Starkey is pretty bonkers though.
    I feel sorry for anyone who funded him through Patreon on the basis of his historical talks on YouTube. He hasn't made any historical talks for YouTube for about a year, just the frothing at the mouth and biting the carpet over current politics.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,936
    edited June 30
    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    But it has some pretty dodgy areas.
    The dodgy parts are now central, rather than St Pauls etc. Up on the downs there are shitty caravans everywhere.
  • ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    But it has some pretty dodgy areas.
    Like most of them then.

    Probably the only place in the country where you are likely to be mugged by someone who thinks it is "speak like a pirate day" every day though.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    I had no idea Jean-Marie Le Pen himself is still alive. He's 96, I wonder how he feels about his daughter's success, after she booted him from the party he led for decades.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    I wouldn't describe, for example, Le Pen comparing Muslims living in France to the Nazi occupation as "moderate"
    It’s all relative. Melenchon hates Jews and Germans, and loves Putin.
    Without in any way defending Melenchon, if we are going to be relative about it I would say Melenchon has never managed to be quite as fascist as Le Pen and also point out the NFP alliance that Melenchon has signed up to has a significantly stronger position on Ukraine than Le Pen's party.
    To choose between Melenchron and Le Pen is like choosing between Mao or Hitler. There is no right option.

    What has France done to deserve them?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,513
    edited June 30
    boulay said:

    Georgia: better at rugby union than Wales, better than Spain at football.

    Just imagine if all the American States entered the Euros.
    Imagine if they all entered Eurovision. Voting would go on til Tuesday....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    3) Have a strong chance of fully subverting democracy in America.

    BTW (and of course FYI) give a nod to Jim Miller who bird-dogged Doug "Windmill" Burgum months ago on PB.

    NOT sure IF DB will actually be DJT's VP pick? OR if JM will actually vote for at DJT-DB ticket in 2024???

    Yet another quasi-sage observation; Trump selecting Bugum for VP would be another indication that historical prejudice against small-state candidates for VP or for POTUS, is truly history.

    By "small" I mean in terms of population, which is reflected in each state's electoral vote allocation; and also states with VERY small populations, with say 6 or fewer EV.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,569
    ydoethur said:

    Also, FPT as it's quite important:

    I have finally tracked down the article that Hitchins was quoting about ‘Russia being provoked.’ It was not easy because not only was what he quoted rather inaccurate but it was so ripped out of context anyway as to actually reverse the meaning of what was said.

    Here are Kagan’s very precise words:

    Although it is obscene to blame the United States for Putin’s inhumane attack on Ukraine, to insist that the invasion was entirely unprovoked is misleading. Just as Pearl Harbor was the consequence of U.S. efforts to blunt Japanese expansion on the Asian mainland, and just as the 9/11 attacks were partly a response to the United States’ dominant presence in the Middle East after the first Gulf War, so Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe. Putin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact

    The thrust of the article is that Putin was provoked by his inability to deal with how much the Russians were hated in their traditional sphere of influence, as demonstrated by the collapse of the Yanukovych government and the desperation of Eastern European states to join NATO as a guarantee against a relapse. He argues that the key provocation was how the United States’ response was clumsy and chaotic leading Russia and now China to think they could keep getting away with their crimes.

    This was of course seized on by Kremlin propagandists and anti-American twits like Hitchins who claimed Kagan said the US provoked the invasion of Ukraine - when in fact he was saying pretty much the exact opposite.

    So basically - Hitchins either lied, or is so stupid he should not be allowed near a keyboard. Or both, of course.

    Full article here (free with registration):

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-06/russia-ukraine-war-price-hegemony

    He's a twat, always has been.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Any polls this evening folks?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,936
    edited June 30

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    I wouldn't describe, for example, Le Pen comparing Muslims living in France to the Nazi occupation as "moderate"
    It’s all relative. Melenchon hates Jews and Germans, and loves Putin.
    Without in any way defending Melenchon, if we are going to be relative about it I would say Melenchon has never managed to be quite as fascist as Le Pen and also point out the NFP alliance that Melenchon has signed up to has a significantly stronger position on Ukraine than Le Pen's party.
    To choose between Melenchron and Le Pen is like choosing between Mao or Hitler. There is no right option.

    What has France done to deserve them?
    The thing is they all hate Macron, and for all his anti-English sabre rattling, he is centrist Dad, that has proposed very minor reform and the French all go mad. 2 year increase in retirement age because the scheme is going to go bust, burn the place down....

    I don't see how France is governable. 1/3 want far left, a 1/3 want the far right, and hardly anybody wants the centre or sensible reform.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    But it has some pretty dodgy areas.
    Like most of them then.

    Probably the only place in the country where you are likely to be mugged by someone who thinks it is "speak like a pirate day" every day though.
    You’re very irritating.

    Unless you are a parody account, in which case well played.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395

    boulay said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I do love a bit of James, one of the bands that transports back to school days in a good way.
    I was 30 in 1990 when Sit Down came out. They take me back to 2006 when they had a greatest hits album, and I saw them at belladrum.
    James were huge in Manchester from about 1984 onwards.
    Regarded as the best live act in the city. Had a huge fan base locally. Drugs and cults prevented them going on the road at all much.
  • Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Also, FPT as it's quite important:

    I have finally tracked down the article that Hitchins was quoting about ‘Russia being provoked.’ It was not easy because not only was what he quoted rather inaccurate but it was so ripped out of context anyway as to actually reverse the meaning of what was said.

    Here are Kagan’s very precise words:

    Although it is obscene to blame the United States for Putin’s inhumane attack on Ukraine, to insist that the invasion was entirely unprovoked is misleading. Just as Pearl Harbor was the consequence of U.S. efforts to blunt Japanese expansion on the Asian mainland, and just as the 9/11 attacks were partly a response to the United States’ dominant presence in the Middle East after the first Gulf War, so Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe. Putin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact

    The thrust of the article is that Putin was provoked by his inability to deal with how much the Russians were hated in their traditional sphere of influence, as demonstrated by the collapse of the Yanukovych government and the desperation of Eastern European states to join NATO as a guarantee against a relapse. He argues that the key provocation was how the United States’ response was clumsy and chaotic leading Russia and now China to think they could keep getting away with their crimes.

    This was of course seized on by Kremlin propagandists and anti-American twits like Hitchins who claimed Kagan said the US provoked the invasion of Ukraine - when in fact he was saying pretty much the exact opposite.

    So basically - Hitchins either lied, or is so stupid he should not be allowed near a keyboard. Or both, of course.

    Full article here (free with registration):

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-06/russia-ukraine-war-price-hegemony

    Hitchens is not stupid, so one should conclude that he is a deliberate liar.

    One can only speculate as to why he would want to lie for Putin.
    He isn't lying.

    The guy said "Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe."

    So he reacted much the same way that the US did when Kruschev decided to put missiles in Cuba.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    James is getting closer to grandad rock now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020

    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    But it has some pretty dodgy areas.
    Like most of them then.

    Probably the only place in the country where you are likely to be mugged by someone who thinks it is "speak like a pirate day" every day though.
    One of the disappointments of living in the South West is the relative dearth of authentic West Country accents. I blame people like my parents, transplants from the rest of the South.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited June 30
    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    It’s amazing

    The regeneration around the harbour is spectacular.

    I stayed in Totterdown for a night this last week. Awesome place.

    Such a vibey city.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,077
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Also, FPT as it's quite important:

    I have finally tracked down the article that Hitchins was quoting about ‘Russia being provoked.’ It was not easy because not only was what he quoted rather inaccurate but it was so ripped out of context anyway as to actually reverse the meaning of what was said.

    Here are Kagan’s very precise words:

    Although it is obscene to blame the United States for Putin’s inhumane attack on Ukraine, to insist that the invasion was entirely unprovoked is misleading. Just as Pearl Harbor was the consequence of U.S. efforts to blunt Japanese expansion on the Asian mainland, and just as the 9/11 attacks were partly a response to the United States’ dominant presence in the Middle East after the first Gulf War, so Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe. Putin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact

    The thrust of the article is that Putin was provoked by his inability to deal with how much the Russians were hated in their traditional sphere of influence, as demonstrated by the collapse of the Yanukovych government and the desperation of Eastern European states to join NATO as a guarantee against a relapse. He argues that the key provocation was how the United States’ response was clumsy and chaotic leading Russia and now China to think they could keep getting away with their crimes.

    This was of course seized on by Kremlin propagandists and anti-American twits like Hitchins who claimed Kagan said the US provoked the invasion of Ukraine - when in fact he was saying pretty much the exact opposite.

    So basically - Hitchins either lied, or is so stupid he should not be allowed near a keyboard. Or both, of course.

    Full article here (free with registration):

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-06/russia-ukraine-war-price-hegemony

    Hitchens is not stupid, so one should conclude that he is a deliberate liar.

    One can only speculate as to why he would want to lie for Putin.
    Well I have met Peter Hitchens socially a few times, and I have to say he does, at times, seem a little... slow.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand this correctly the next French government will be determined by Macron supporters on whether they detest the Left more than the Hard Right:


    Le Pen is more moderate than Melenchon.
    I wouldn't describe, for example, Le Pen comparing Muslims living in France to the Nazi occupation as "moderate"
    It’s all relative. Melenchon hates Jews and Germans, and loves Putin.
    Without in any way defending Melenchon, if we are going to be relative about it I would say Melenchon has never managed to be quite as fascist as Le Pen and also point out the NFP alliance that Melenchon has signed up to has a significantly stronger position on Ukraine than Le Pen's party.
    To choose between Melenchron and Le Pen is like choosing between Mao or Hitler. There is no right option.

    What has France done to deserve them?
    The thing is they all hate Macron, and for all his anti-English sabre rattling, he is centrist Dad, that has proposed very minor reform and the French all go mad. 2 year increase in retirement age because the scheme is going to go bust, burn the place down....

    Yes, what's going to happen if that hard fought reform gets junked now?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,162
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    PB I need your advice. I’ve got one more day in st malo (which is of course gorgeous - why didn’t we rebuild Exeter and Coventry and derby and and and SOB)

    So where do I go? Dinard for the beauty or Cancale for the oysters? I adore oysters so I think I should make a pilgrimage to the oyster capital of the world BUT Dinard is said to be lovely…

    Dinard. You should have gone over the weekend as good fun bars and the Casino etc but still a lovely beach to overlook from a nice bar.

    Edit to add, you can drop the car off in st malo and get the sea bus between St Malo and Dinard so you can indulge and not worry about drink driving.
    Yes maybe. Also I can surely get Cancale oysters in Dinard
    Have a break from the oysters and just get a dirty big tray of langoustine with proper mayonnaise and crispy bread with a nice bottle of white.
    Skip oysters? Here??? Are you mad????

    That said I’ve done the langoustine thing a few times on this trip and it too is lovely

    Think that’s my plan for Monday. Head to dinard and have a douzaine cancales and then the langoustines with mayo for lunch. And a proper white not this cheap muscadet crap

    That’s how to begin the working week
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,925

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I was in Bristol the other week, its looking rougher these days in the centre than pre-COVID.
    Haven't been there since Covid, but last time I was there I was offered drugs several times on the walk through the town centre on my way to a meeting. Was looking pretty shabby even then, and a bit of a sense of menace after dark, much more so than London.

    Clifton's nice, the rest of it is either the exact kind of middle class trustafarian type Mr Bedfordshire seeks to avoid, or in the rougher areas, some proper crusty types.

    Either way I was amused by someone detouring *to* Bristol to avoid hippies and drugs...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,575

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Also, FPT as it's quite important:

    I have finally tracked down the article that Hitchins was quoting about ‘Russia being provoked.’ It was not easy because not only was what he quoted rather inaccurate but it was so ripped out of context anyway as to actually reverse the meaning of what was said.

    Here are Kagan’s very precise words:

    Although it is obscene to blame the United States for Putin’s inhumane attack on Ukraine, to insist that the invasion was entirely unprovoked is misleading. Just as Pearl Harbor was the consequence of U.S. efforts to blunt Japanese expansion on the Asian mainland, and just as the 9/11 attacks were partly a response to the United States’ dominant presence in the Middle East after the first Gulf War, so Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe. Putin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact

    The thrust of the article is that Putin was provoked by his inability to deal with how much the Russians were hated in their traditional sphere of influence, as demonstrated by the collapse of the Yanukovych government and the desperation of Eastern European states to join NATO as a guarantee against a relapse. He argues that the key provocation was how the United States’ response was clumsy and chaotic leading Russia and now China to think they could keep getting away with their crimes.

    This was of course seized on by Kremlin propagandists and anti-American twits like Hitchins who claimed Kagan said the US provoked the invasion of Ukraine - when in fact he was saying pretty much the exact opposite.

    So basically - Hitchins either lied, or is so stupid he should not be allowed near a keyboard. Or both, of course.

    Full article here (free with registration):

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-06/russia-ukraine-war-price-hegemony

    Hitchens is not stupid, so one should conclude that he is a deliberate liar.

    One can only speculate as to why he would want to lie for Putin.
    He isn't lying.

    The guy said "Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe."

    So he reacted much the same way that the US did when Kruschev decided to put missiles in Cuba.
    I don't recall the USA invading Cuba recently.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,316

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Also, FPT as it's quite important:

    I have finally tracked down the article that Hitchins was quoting about ‘Russia being provoked.’ It was not easy because not only was what he quoted rather inaccurate but it was so ripped out of context anyway as to actually reverse the meaning of what was said.

    Here are Kagan’s very precise words:

    Although it is obscene to blame the United States for Putin’s inhumane attack on Ukraine, to insist that the invasion was entirely unprovoked is misleading. Just as Pearl Harbor was the consequence of U.S. efforts to blunt Japanese expansion on the Asian mainland, and just as the 9/11 attacks were partly a response to the United States’ dominant presence in the Middle East after the first Gulf War, so Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe. Putin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact

    The thrust of the article is that Putin was provoked by his inability to deal with how much the Russians were hated in their traditional sphere of influence, as demonstrated by the collapse of the Yanukovych government and the desperation of Eastern European states to join NATO as a guarantee against a relapse. He argues that the key provocation was how the United States’ response was clumsy and chaotic leading Russia and now China to think they could keep getting away with their crimes.

    This was of course seized on by Kremlin propagandists and anti-American twits like Hitchins who claimed Kagan said the US provoked the invasion of Ukraine - when in fact he was saying pretty much the exact opposite.

    So basically - Hitchins either lied, or is so stupid he should not be allowed near a keyboard. Or both, of course.

    Full article here (free with registration):

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-06/russia-ukraine-war-price-hegemony

    Hitchens is not stupid, so one should conclude that he is a deliberate liar.

    One can only speculate as to why he would want to lie for Putin.
    He isn't lying.

    The guy said "Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe."

    So he reacted much the same way that the US did when Kruschev decided to put missiles in Cuba.
    Putin sees the former USSR and Warsaw Pact as rebellious Russian colonies, not as sovereign nations.

    You may think that is a legitimate viewpoint. I don’t. More pertinently, why should Russia be given territories that it is quite incapable of winning on the battlefield?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,936
    edited June 30
    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I was in Bristol the other week, its looking rougher these days in the centre than pre-COVID.
    Haven't been there since Covid, but last time I was there I was offered drugs several times on the walk through the town centre on my way to a meeting. Was looking pretty shabby even then, and a bit of a sense of menace after dark, much more so than London.

    Clifton's nice, the rest of it is either the exact kind of middle class trustafarian type Mr Bedfordshire seeks to avoid, or in the rougher areas, some proper crusty types.

    Either way I was amused by someone detouring *to* Bristol to avoid hippies and drugs...
    Broadmead / Cabos Circus is the central shopping area and it right down the tubes since COVID. Loads of empty shops. Park Street is the famous road up to Clifton, always used to be filled with higher end shops e.g. Cath Kidston, and now lots of empty ones or the real dodgy money laundering places. A load of homeless druggies where shooting up on College Green. Then you go up to the downs past Clifton and it is people having a shit at the side of the road outside their 50 year old beat up caravan that they live in full time.

    That central part of Bristol never used to be like that. You had to head towards Gloucester road to start to run into that sort of thing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,162
    I am now sure my theory is right. The vote for le pen is, for many, not a vote to change France (tho it is that for some) - it is a vote to preserve and protect beautiful France

    They’ve seen Paris and Marseilles. They don’t want that to happen in st malo and menton
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,003
    edited June 30
    dixiedean said:

    Today's County Championship Div 2 scores look like entries for the number of Tory seats competition.
    Glos and Leics both gone for 179.
    Middx 86
    Northants 97
    Sussex 143
    Derbys 76.
    Glamorgan on 133-7. So maybe a little high.
    Yorkshire are bonkers. At 283-5 it looks like they're predicting five more years.

    A warm welcome back to the dukes ball, in muggy weather.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,469
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    PB I need your advice. I’ve got one more day in st malo (which is of course gorgeous - why didn’t we rebuild Exeter and Coventry and derby and and and SOB)

    So where do I go? Dinard for the beauty or Cancale for the oysters? I adore oysters so I think I should make a pilgrimage to the oyster capital of the world BUT Dinard is said to be lovely…

    Dinard. You should have gone over the weekend as good fun bars and the Casino etc but still a lovely beach to overlook from a nice bar.

    Edit to add, you can drop the car off in st malo and get the sea bus between St Malo and Dinard so you can indulge and not worry about drink driving.
    Yes maybe. Also I can surely get Cancale oysters in Dinard
    Have a break from the oysters and just get a dirty big tray of langoustine with proper mayonnaise and crispy bread with a nice bottle of white.
    Skip oysters? Here??? Are you mad????

    That said I’ve done the langoustine thing a few times on this trip and it too is lovely

    Think that’s my plan for Monday. Head to dinard and have a douzaine cancales and then the langoustines with mayo for lunch. And a proper white not this cheap muscadet crap

    That’s how to begin the working week
    This is the website re the 10 min water bus between St M and Dinard.

    https://compagniecorsaire.com/en/destination/saint-malo-dinard/
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,003
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    But it has some pretty dodgy areas.
    Like most of them then.

    Probably the only place in the country where you are likely to be mugged by someone who thinks it is "speak like a pirate day" every day though.
    One of the disappointments of living in the South West is the relative dearth of authentic West Country accents. I blame people like my parents, transplants from the rest of the South.
    Rural Zomerzet is the place to go for that.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,316
    I see the leader of the Communists has lost his seat to RN, on the first round, in Nord.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    ydoethur said:

    carnforth said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, in the US, the GOP again comes out in favour of Biden.

    … asked what his greatest accomplishment in the Senate is, Vance cites funding for the Great Lakes that was part of the infrastructure bill he voted against..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1807428972579315897

    I closed out my VP bet on him for a profit.
    Doug ‘Boring’ Burgum is the current, short odds favourite.

    I met Doug Burgum in the last 90s when he was the CEO of Great Plains, and he seemed like a very smart guy.

    Until the last year - when he decided he wanted to become the Republican Presidential nominee - he was notably moderate, particularly on social issues, where he vetoed a number of his own parties bills on transgender issues.
    Being Trump's VP he would:

    1) Have a strong chance of becoming President within four years
    2) Have a strong chance of being GOP candidate in 2028
    Is it definitely the case that Trump can only serve one more term or is there any possibility of the supreme court ruling that this only applies to consecutive terms?
    No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    So the theoretical max is ten years minus a day?
    Yes.

    So the only Presidents since Roosevelt who could have served more than two terms were Truman (grandfathered out) and Johnson (so unpopular he would have been primaried).

    Ford, even had he been re-elected, would not have been eligible in 1980 as he served 2 years 5 months from August 1974.
    Lyndon Johnson WAS primaried in 1968, in the fabled (and frigid) snows of New Hampshire, by Sen. Eugene McCarthy (D-Minnesota).

    LBJ was NOT on the ballot for the NH Democratic presidential primary (same as Biden this year) but won anyway (ditto). Yet fact that McCarthy got over 40% of NH Democratic vote, was key factor in LBJ's decision to NOT run for re-election.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,003

    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    But it has some pretty dodgy areas.
    The dodgy parts are now central, rather than St Pauls etc. Up on the downs there are shitty caravans everywhere.
    That’s the issue. Bristol tries to have too many centres. The nicest stuff being in Clifton means it can’t be by the harbour.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    edited June 30
    I do appreciate how these candidates are grouped in the wiki page - anyone up for a vote for 'miscellaneous centre*'?

    *Includes 8 Ensemble candidates, 13 non-Ensemble Union of Democrats and Independents candidates of 38 total UDI candidates, 5 of 7 Les Centristes candidates, 2 LR candidates, 1 non-Ensemble Radical Party candidate, and 1 Ensemble dissident out of 149 total candidate
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,925

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I was in Bristol the other week, its looking rougher these days in the centre than pre-COVID.
    Haven't been there since Covid, but last time I was there I was offered drugs several times on the walk through the town centre on my way to a meeting. Was looking pretty shabby even then, and a bit of a sense of menace after dark, much more so than London.

    Clifton's nice, the rest of it is either the exact kind of middle class trustafarian type Mr Bedfordshire seeks to avoid, or in the rougher areas, some proper crusty types.

    Either way I was amused by someone detouring *to* Bristol to avoid hippies and drugs...
    Broadmead / Cabos Circus is the central shopping area and it right down the tubes since COVID. Loads of empty shops. Park Street is the famous road up to Clifton, always used to be filled with higher end shops e.g. Cath Kidston, and now lots of empty ones or the real dodgy money laundering places. A load of homeless druggies where shooting up on College Green. Then you go up to the downs past Clifton and it is people having a shit at the side of the road outside their 50 year old beat up caravan that they live in full time.

    That central part of Bristol never used to be like that.
    Yes, I think I know the bit you mean. Used to be lovely, but reminded me more of Picadilly Gardens in Manchester last time I was there - druggies had taken over.

    Another symptom of the UK in decline, I suppose, I doubt it's limited to Bristol. Was just a bit surprised by the contrast between the nice, leafy walk I remembered from a decade ago, and the menacing skid row that seems to have replaced it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    boulay said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I do love a bit of James, one of the bands that transports back to school days in a good way.
    Many years back, at Reading, Liam Gallagher started insulting the crowd. Many were metal heads who’d come to see Metallica play Sunday night, and were doing the whole weekend. So quite a lot in the crowd were just watching out of interest. Not enough worship for Mr Gallagher…

    Anyway, his insults got more stupid and stuff was flying at the stage. Just at that moment the set ended and James came on next. The crowd was in an ugly mood, but the lead guy said something like - “Sorry, but we have to do this…” and launched into Sit Down. Which was on every jukebox in the UK.

    The crowd went from StormTheStage to WeLikeThese guys in about 30 seconds…
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,936
    edited June 30
    biggles said:

    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    But it has some pretty dodgy areas.
    The dodgy parts are now central, rather than St Pauls etc. Up on the downs there are shitty caravans everywhere.
    That’s the issue. Bristol tries to have too many centres. The nicest stuff being in Clifton means it can’t be by the harbour.
    10 years ago its was. Clifton is always nice but a very different world. The harbourside redevelopment is ok, but I believe a lot of the companies have left the offices down there (or only inhabit a small portion of them). And centre of town with Cabot Circus was going well, loads of restaurants, shops etc. But the massive cinema in Cabot closed down recently because nobody goes there anymore. I wouldn't hang around that part of town after dark these days.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,809
    biggles said:

    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    But it has some pretty dodgy areas.
    The dodgy parts are now central, rather than St Pauls etc. Up on the downs there are shitty caravans everywhere.
    That’s the issue. Bristol tries to have too many centres. The nicest stuff being in Clifton means it can’t be by the harbour.
    Bristol is the most overated city in the UK. Perhaps the myth of its trendy arty culture has contributed to a city where large parts look like a cesspit
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    It’s amazing

    The regeneration around the harbour is spectacular.

    I stayed in Totterdown for a night this last week. Awesome place.

    Such a vibey city.
    The regeneration around the harbour is always spectacular, even in galactic class shitholes like Gloucester and Plymouth, and that's the bit they show to aging yuppie visitors. Means nothing.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kle4 said:

    I do appreciate how these candidates are grouped in the wiki page - anyone up for a vote for 'miscellaneous centre*'?

    *Includes 8 Ensemble candidates, 13 non-Ensemble Union of Democrats and Independents candidates of 38 total UDI candidates, 5 of 7 Les Centristes candidates, 2 LR candidates, 1 non-Ensemble Radical Party candidate, and 1 Ensemble dissident out of 149 total candidate

    Which is center of the center? AND is that average, median or just plain mean?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Also, FPT as it's quite important:

    I have finally tracked down the article that Hitchins was quoting about ‘Russia being provoked.’ It was not easy because not only was what he quoted rather inaccurate but it was so ripped out of context anyway as to actually reverse the meaning of what was said.

    Here are Kagan’s very precise words:

    Although it is obscene to blame the United States for Putin’s inhumane attack on Ukraine, to insist that the invasion was entirely unprovoked is misleading. Just as Pearl Harbor was the consequence of U.S. efforts to blunt Japanese expansion on the Asian mainland, and just as the 9/11 attacks were partly a response to the United States’ dominant presence in the Middle East after the first Gulf War, so Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe. Putin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact

    The thrust of the article is that Putin was provoked by his inability to deal with how much the Russians were hated in their traditional sphere of influence, as demonstrated by the collapse of the Yanukovych government and the desperation of Eastern European states to join NATO as a guarantee against a relapse. He argues that the key provocation was how the United States’ response was clumsy and chaotic leading Russia and now China to think they could keep getting away with their crimes.

    This was of course seized on by Kremlin propagandists and anti-American twits like Hitchins who claimed Kagan said the US provoked the invasion of Ukraine - when in fact he was saying pretty much the exact opposite.

    So basically - Hitchins either lied, or is so stupid he should not be allowed near a keyboard. Or both, of course.

    Full article here (free with registration):

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-06/russia-ukraine-war-price-hegemony

    Hitchens is not stupid, so one should conclude that he is a deliberate liar.

    One can only speculate as to why he would want to lie for Putin.
    He isn't lying.

    The guy said "Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe."

    So he reacted much the same way that the US did when Kruschev decided to put missiles in Cuba.
    Don't be a twat.
    He threw a strop over Ukraine wanting to join the EU.
    Which had nothing to do with US 'hegemony'.

    And the Bag of Pigs, and Kruschev's ill considered move, were sixty years ago.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,003
    kle4 said:

    I do appreciate how these candidates are grouped in the wiki page - anyone up for a vote for 'micellaneous centre*'?

    *Includes 8 Ensemble candidates, 13 non-Ensemble Union of Democrats and Independents candidates of 38 total UDI candidates, 5 of 7 Les Centristes candidates, 2 LR candidates, 1 non-Ensemble Radical Party candidate, and 1 Ensemble dissident out of 149 total candidate

    I love the idea of the “ecologists” as a political block. Never struck me as the type.

    “What do we want?”

    “More information so we can form a reasoned assessment of what’s happening to the stoats in this area”.

    “When do we want it?”

    “In due course, once we have taken time to conduct a proper peer reviewed study”.


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    Cicero said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Also, FPT as it's quite important:

    I have finally tracked down the article that Hitchins was quoting about ‘Russia being provoked.’ It was not easy because not only was what he quoted rather inaccurate but it was so ripped out of context anyway as to actually reverse the meaning of what was said.

    Here are Kagan’s very precise words:

    Although it is obscene to blame the United States for Putin’s inhumane attack on Ukraine, to insist that the invasion was entirely unprovoked is misleading. Just as Pearl Harbor was the consequence of U.S. efforts to blunt Japanese expansion on the Asian mainland, and just as the 9/11 attacks were partly a response to the United States’ dominant presence in the Middle East after the first Gulf War, so Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe. Putin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact

    The thrust of the article is that Putin was provoked by his inability to deal with how much the Russians were hated in their traditional sphere of influence, as demonstrated by the collapse of the Yanukovych government and the desperation of Eastern European states to join NATO as a guarantee against a relapse. He argues that the key provocation was how the United States’ response was clumsy and chaotic leading Russia and now China to think they could keep getting away with their crimes.

    This was of course seized on by Kremlin propagandists and anti-American twits like Hitchins who claimed Kagan said the US provoked the invasion of Ukraine - when in fact he was saying pretty much the exact opposite.

    So basically - Hitchins either lied, or is so stupid he should not be allowed near a keyboard. Or both, of course.

    Full article here (free with registration):

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-06/russia-ukraine-war-price-hegemony

    Hitchens is not stupid, so one should conclude that he is a deliberate liar.

    One can only speculate as to why he would want to lie for Putin.
    Well I have met Peter Hitchens socially a few times, and I have to say he does, at times, seem a little... slow.
    I’ve always liked the “the Japanese were provoked” argument for WWII

    Yes, the Americans and others cut off oil and steel supplies (among other things) - not an embargo, but refusing to sell. Refusing to sell to a country that was using these materials to attack an ally of the US (China) and threatening to use them to attack the US itself and allied countries. For being friends with China.

    So the US was supposed to sell oil and steel so the Japanese could build more Yamato class battleships to attack… the US?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,595
    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    I do appreciate how these candidates are grouped in the wiki page - anyone up for a vote for 'micellaneous centre*'?

    *Includes 8 Ensemble candidates, 13 non-Ensemble Union of Democrats and Independents candidates of 38 total UDI candidates, 5 of 7 Les Centristes candidates, 2 LR candidates, 1 non-Ensemble Radical Party candidate, and 1 Ensemble dissident out of 149 total candidate

    I love the idea of the “ecologists” as a political block. Never struck me as the type.

    “What do we want?”

    “More information so we can form a reasoned assessment of what’s happening to the stoats in this area”.

    “When do we want it?”

    “In due course, once we have taken time to conduct a proper peer reviewed study”.


    Our Green Party were originally the Ecology Party.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Also, FPT as it's quite important:

    I have finally tracked down the article that Hitchins was quoting about ‘Russia being provoked.’ It was not easy because not only was what he quoted rather inaccurate but it was so ripped out of context anyway as to actually reverse the meaning of what was said.

    Here are Kagan’s very precise words:

    Although it is obscene to blame the United States for Putin’s inhumane attack on Ukraine, to insist that the invasion was entirely unprovoked is misleading. Just as Pearl Harbor was the consequence of U.S. efforts to blunt Japanese expansion on the Asian mainland, and just as the 9/11 attacks were partly a response to the United States’ dominant presence in the Middle East after the first Gulf War, so Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe. Putin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact

    The thrust of the article is that Putin was provoked by his inability to deal with how much the Russians were hated in their traditional sphere of influence, as demonstrated by the collapse of the Yanukovych government and the desperation of Eastern European states to join NATO as a guarantee against a relapse. He argues that the key provocation was how the United States’ response was clumsy and chaotic leading Russia and now China to think they could keep getting away with their crimes.

    This was of course seized on by Kremlin propagandists and anti-American twits like Hitchins who claimed Kagan said the US provoked the invasion of Ukraine - when in fact he was saying pretty much the exact opposite.

    So basically - Hitchins either lied, or is so stupid he should not be allowed near a keyboard. Or both, of course.

    Full article here (free with registration):

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-06/russia-ukraine-war-price-hegemony

    Hitchens is not stupid, so one should conclude that he is a deliberate liar.

    One can only speculate as to why he would want to lie for Putin.
    He isn't lying.

    The guy said "Russian decisions have been a response to the expanding post–Cold War hegemony of the United States and its allies in Europe."

    So he reacted much the same way that the US did when Kruschev decided to put missiles in Cuba.
    I don't recall the USA invading Cuba recently.
    MrBed is incapable of seeing nations having their own interests beyond those of the U.S. and Russia, apparently.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    As someone with near-zero interest in football, it's amusing to see England win to get through to the quarter-finals, yet people are whinging as though we'd just been drubbed 87.3-nil.

    It really is pathetic isn’t it? You wouldn’t want to be with them in the trenches would you?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,936
    edited June 30
    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I was in Bristol the other week, its looking rougher these days in the centre than pre-COVID.
    Haven't been there since Covid, but last time I was there I was offered drugs several times on the walk through the town centre on my way to a meeting. Was looking pretty shabby even then, and a bit of a sense of menace after dark, much more so than London.

    Clifton's nice, the rest of it is either the exact kind of middle class trustafarian type Mr Bedfordshire seeks to avoid, or in the rougher areas, some proper crusty types.

    Either way I was amused by someone detouring *to* Bristol to avoid hippies and drugs...
    Broadmead / Cabos Circus is the central shopping area and it right down the tubes since COVID. Loads of empty shops. Park Street is the famous road up to Clifton, always used to be filled with higher end shops e.g. Cath Kidston, and now lots of empty ones or the real dodgy money laundering places. A load of homeless druggies where shooting up on College Green. Then you go up to the downs past Clifton and it is people having a shit at the side of the road outside their 50 year old beat up caravan that they live in full time.

    That central part of Bristol never used to be like that.
    Yes, I think I know the bit you mean. Used to be lovely, but reminded me more of Picadilly Gardens in Manchester last time I was there - druggies had taken over.

    Another symptom of the UK in decline, I suppose, I doubt it's limited to Bristol. Was just a bit surprised by the contrast between the nice, leafy walk I remembered from a decade ago, and the menacing skid row that seems to have replaced it.
    I think every town centre has been struggling to some extent for a long time with move to online shopping etc, where as places like Bristol seemed to do ok before COVID (at least from the occasional visits I make there). That hasn't returned and anecdotally seems to have got worse.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,003

    biggles said:

    ydoethur said:

    kyf_100 said:

    James at Glastonbury. Apotheosis of dad rock.

    I have just found out my train home tomorrow will be making an extra stop at Castle Cary to collect drug addled degenerates from Glastonbury smelling to high heaven who havent had a bath or shower in days.

    Think I will go via Bristol instead.
    Clearly spoken like someone who has never been to Bristol...
    I have been to Bristol several times but never set foot outside either Temple Meads or Parkway Stations.

    Have I missed anything?
    Bristol is a great city.

    But it has some pretty dodgy areas.
    The dodgy parts are now central, rather than St Pauls etc. Up on the downs there are shitty caravans everywhere.
    That’s the issue. Bristol tries to have too many centres. The nicest stuff being in Clifton means it can’t be by the harbour.
    10 years ago its was. Clifton is always nice but a very different world. The harbourside redevelopment is ok, but I believe a lot of the companies have left the offices down there (or only inhabit a small portion of them). And centre of town with Cabot Circus was going well, loads of restaurants, shops etc. But the massive cinema in Cabot closed down recently because nobody goes there anymore. I wouldn't hang around that part of town after dark these days.
    Has that cinema closed?! Been years since I lived there but I liked that place. Comfy seats. Can’t overestimate the value of a comfy seat in a cinema. Also one of the first cinemas I remember routinely offering beer.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,363
    Jonathan Reynolds has been in talks last week with Unite and Tata over the imminent (7th July) closure of both blast furnaces. Why?

    Reynolds is not the Business Secretary, Kemi is! Labour are getting ahead of themselves.
This discussion has been closed.