David Cameron is set to be Winston Churchill or Leo Amery?
You tell me!
(I was thinking of the military side. Make an assault landing with fanfare, in association with the French, and then pull back in a hurry as the situation develops not necessarily to one's advantage elsewhere. But the politics, yes, I suppose it could match too ...)
Dave could be both Amery & Churchill.
In the original version of the thread I did compare Sunak's exit as ignominious as the Dieppe Raid.
Let’s hope Cam’s sprogs are cut from better cloth than those of Churchill and Amery.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
This is an interesting and hilarious thread about the French election. The French centre right seems to following a script by Armandon Ianucci. It’s bonkers.
Not much reaction on the betting markets to last nite's show or the Labour slide in recent polls.
If they were losing votes to the Conservatives I suppose it would be different, but they can can afford a considerable drift to other parties before it starts to hurt them.
Starmer still looks nailed on for a big majority but thenext few polls should be interesting.
Interesting voxpop on R4 from their roaming the country series. Today they were in Redcar and it was surprising how many of the people they played interviews with had no idea how they were going to vote on the day.
There was one lady v pro Sunak, another wanting change, another wanting a protest vote so was going with reform but otherwise everyone else was “I really just don’t know” and many saying they didn’t know for the first time ever ahead of an election.
I wonder if this is the same across the whole country in real life and could it be that people who respond to polls largely feel obliged to give an answer (yes there are Don’t Knows) as they are en engaged in polling but largely there is still quite a lot to play for so over the next couple of weeks the Tories can go big on “Labour Tax Rises” and reduce the losses.
I did not see last night's interviews but gather from Rory & Alastair on TRIP that Rishi did not use the £2,000 tax line. It may be that party polling has shown it was badly received.
Maybe the Tories were waiting for Labour’s manifesto before venturing back into the tax battle. Now they can formulate attacks based on what Labour are saying having already planted a fake seed in people’s heads. It’s all they’ve really got now so have to just throw shit around for the next couple of weeks to save a many seats as possible.
1. People expect tax rises whoever is in power. 2. They know the parties all lie on this, misdirect if people prefer. Indeed the Tory tax cut lies seem worse than the Labour no tax rise lies. 3. People want better public services than we have at the moment, and understand that is going to need extra cash, at least in the short term. 4. No-one is willing to listen to anything the Tories have to say at the moment.
Sunak has always felt that the public ceremonial side of his job, and the time consumed by foreign affairs, was a bit of a waste of his time; what he likes doing is numerical analysis and modelling.
Fair enough, but that's deeply politically inept for a Prime Minister - especially in an election campaign.
Mirror image of Boris, who loved the Being Mr Britain part of the job, but really couldn't be bothered with the Running The Country bit.
You really need to be at least competent at both.
(Wasn't his initial defence that he went for the British bits, and just ducked out of the events involving foreigners?)
It's Jim Hacker's first day in number 10. There's lots you could do, some things you might want to do, but nothing you *have* to do. Unless you act as a surrogate-Chancellor of the Exchequer, you are more like an Exec Chair than an MD.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Indeed, “toolmaker” makes me think of some old man in a workshop wearing a leather apron over his clothes, falling asleep as he works into the night by gaslight and then the elves come out and finish his work for him, because he was virtuous and hated the private healthcare system.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Son of a toolmaker is not the worst thing to be known as. Better than ‘prominent lefty lawyer’ or something. Or indeed ‘banker and billionaire’s spouse’.
Not much reaction on the betting markets to last nite's show or the Labour slide in recent polls.
If they were losing votes to the Conservatives I suppose it would be different, but they can can afford a considerable drift to other parties before it starts to hurt them.
Starmer still looks nailed on for a big majority but thenext few polls should be interesting.
My bet on Lab getting 38-39.99% turned green last night for the first time, so that was a change.
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
It's an outrage, but under the system your party has enthusiastically embraced for decades and decades it's perfectly legitimate. Mind you the 43% achieved for a landslide in 2019 is hardly an overwhelming majority.
Sunak has always felt that the public ceremonial side of his job, and the time consumed by foreign affairs, was a bit of a waste of his time; what he likes doing is numerical analysis and modelling.
Fair enough, but that's deeply politically inept for a Prime Minister - especially in an election campaign.
I do have a grain of sympathy for him on the D Day thing. He does actually have a track record on veterans’ issues.
That grain is vastly overwhelmed by the endless desert planet of gaffedom of course. It was an almost unbelievably stupid way to conduct himself, let alone *during an election*.
But a grain, nonetheless.
Yes, I agree - and it's sort of not fair. I didn't detect it would be such a big deal either.
The reason it's resonated is because it totemises everyone's concerns about Sunak; it gives a label to everything about him.
But if that’s representative, then it’s all Sunak needs….
He only needs to lose a debate by a 2-1 margin?
He only needs to get a decent chunk of 36% of voters to think he’s worth their vote….
The rest don’t matter to him.
His only strategy now is to eat into Reform and hope Labour dips a bit more.
Eh? Just because 64% said Starmer won doesn’t mean 64% will vote for him!
Was there a "they're both c**ts" option?
Prize for the most moronic post of the last two days. You must have misplaced the link to Guido's
It is just moronic bilge, daily, from Owls these days. Adds no value, and is mostly just offensive and nasty.
Chill. Come election Greens could end up with no seats, and squeezed down tactically to 3% or less. Calculators give them 2 seats based on polls giving them 6-8%. They won’t get 6-8%. Their Brighton seat likely gone in red wave, they can’t fumble Bristols opportunity or it’s wipe out disaster night.
BJO knows this. If BJO gets up your nose, just ask him for his Green election % and number of seats. 😈
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Not quite that quaint. Toolmaking would actually cover making the physical prototypes for machines to work from. It would include such things as making the jigs and gauges and masters and moulds used to operate such things as lathes and milling machines (in the days before the shapes were recorded in digital memories) and injection moulding machines. For instance, to take a familiar example, the body of one's Dinky toy car or Airfix spitfire c. 1970 would be designed from an outsized wooden prototype carving and pantographed down into a two-piece steel mould and polished and detailed. Nowadays the mopulds would be generated by computer controlled machining from digital files sent by the company designer.
Sunak has always felt that the public ceremonial side of his job, and the time consumed by foreign affairs, was a bit of a waste of his time; what he likes doing is numerical analysis and modelling.
Fair enough, but that's deeply politically inept for a Prime Minister - especially in an election campaign.
I do have a grain of sympathy for him on the D Day thing. He does actually have a track record on veterans’ issues.
That grain is vastly overwhelmed by the endless desert planet of gaffedom of course. It was an almost unbelievably stupid way to conduct himself, let alone *during an election*.
But a grain, nonetheless.
Yes, I agree - and it's sort of not fair. I didn't detect it would be such a big deal either.
The reason it's resonated is because it totemises everyone's concerns about Sunak; it gives a label to everything about him.
It played into a pre-existing narrative on the media side specifically as well, his general cluelessness about politics (which I think led the press who are typically more obsessed with electoral meta-narrative, rather than the popular cut through on disrespectfulness).
However, if you want fairness, politics is not the game for you.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Son of a toolmaker is not the worst thing to be known as. Better than ‘prominent lefty lawyer’ or something. Or indeed ‘banker and billionaire’s spouse’.
He should own it. As long as he does it with a cheeky smile it's a great line.
"I don't think I've mentioned this before, but my father..."
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Not quite that quaint. Toolmaking would actually cover making the physical prototypes for machines to work from. It would include such things as making the jigs and gauges and masters and moulds used to operate such things as lathes and milling machines (in the days before the shapes were recorded in digital memories) and injection moulding machines. For instance, to take a familiar example, the body of one's Dinky toy car or Airfix spitfire c. 1970 would be designed from an outsized wooden prototype carving and pantographed down into a two-piece steel mould and polished and detailed. Nowadays the mopulds would be generated from digital files sent by the company designer.
Would skilled Labour such as that have been so poorly paid in his father’s time that they would have their phone cut off for months at a time?
The D Day thing is ridiculous though. So Sunak opted out of a second event having attended the first. Is it really apocalyptic?
D-day gate is appalling for several reasons:-
1. insulting the veterans and people who care about the liberation of Europe 2. it nullifies attacks on Labour for not being patriotic enough 3. it allows attacks from RefUK about not being patriotic enough 4. it turns down the best photo-op any of this generation of politicians will have 5. it misses the chance to shoot the breeze with President Biden for an hour or two
Note that 2-5 call into question Rishi and Number 10's political judgement irrespective of the event itself. Just think about how hard British politicians work just to be seen with the American President. Look at the strings Labour pulled to get Keir Starmer within snapping distance.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
IT also happens to be historically true. No way was the UK going to join Europe till after a successful war.
Not much reaction on the betting markets to last nite's show or the Labour slide in recent polls.
If they were losing votes to the Conservatives I suppose it would be different, but they can can afford a considerable drift to other parties before it starts to hurt them.
Starmer still looks nailed on for a big majority but thenext few polls should be interesting.
My bet on Lab getting 38-39.99% turned green last night for the first time, so that was a change.
I went for a very speculative 34-35.99% at 43. Now 25.
David Cameron is set to be Winston Churchill or Leo Amery?
You tell me!
(I was thinking of the military side. Make an assault landing with fanfare, in association with the French, and then pull back in a hurry as the situation develops not necessarily to one's advantage elsewhere. But the politics, yes, I suppose it could match too ...)
Dave could be both Amery & Churchill.
In the original version of the thread I did compare Sunak's exit as ignominious as the Dieppe Raid.
Let’s hope Cam’s sprogs are cut from better cloth than those of Churchill and Amery.
I can’t fault Jon Amery’s last words:
“Ah, Mr. Pierrepoint, I’ve always wanted to meet you, but not, I’m sure you’ll understand, under present circumstances.”
This is an interesting and hilarious thread about the French election. The French centre right seems to following a script by Armandon Ianucci. It’s bonkers.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Not quite that quaint. Toolmaking would actually cover making the physical prototypes for machines to work from. It would include such things as making the jigs and gauges and masters and moulds used to operate such things as lathes and milling machines (in the days before the shapes were recorded in digital memories) and injection moulding machines. For instance, to take a familiar example, the body of one's Dinky toy car or Airfix spitfire c. 1970 would be designed from an outsized wooden prototype carving and pantographed down into a two-piece steel mould and polished and detailed. Nowadays the mopulds would be generated from digital files sent by the company designer.
Would skilled Labour such as that have been so poorly paid in his father’s time that they would have their phone cut off for months at a time?
Depending on the state of the economy and the degree to which companues were investing? Entirely possible, I'd think. That was an era of deindustralisation. Lots of small Midlands etc metalbashers went west.
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
The D Day thing is ridiculous though. So Sunak opted out of a second event having attended the first. Is it really apocalyptic?
"Ridiculous" or not, it is something that has struck a chord with people (which is why the media worries it to death).
I think it is because
1) Sunak was supposed to be representing us all, and people didn't like how he did that it; so something abstract becomes personal 2) It reifies a general sense people had about him anyway (arrogant, self-interested, no empathy)
and, if you are a Tory activist
3) It was an unforced error - they chose that schedule and didn't allow for events to overrun; then when they did, they made the wrong call. Any doubts you had about the campaign in weeks 1 and 2 were reinforced; another hit to morale.
His reason for leaving was a non-urgent pre-record with ITV. Why on Earth anyone would think that was more important, than the live meeting of a dozen heads of government and heads of state, at a commemoration event for WWII, is totally bewildering.
As I said at the time, ITV jump to the PM’s schedule, not the other way around. If he’d said he was available at 3am, then there would have been a studio full of people waiting for him at 2am, and nothing more would have been said on the subject.
I don't think that was the reason. I think Rishi's D Day plans were in his diary before the election date was a scam on a PPS's betting slip.
He didn't stay because he didn't want to stay.
As Casino_Royale said earlier on this thread, it is not a side of the job Rishi likes or understands. Rory on TRIP after last night's interviews said something similar to you: that Rishi is a slave to his schedule.
But if that’s representative, then it’s all Sunak needs….
He only needs to lose a debate by a 2-1 margin?
He only needs to get a decent chunk of 36% of voters to think he’s worth their vote….
The rest don’t matter to him.
His only strategy now is to eat into Reform and hope Labour dips a bit more.
Eh? Just because 64% said Starmer won doesn’t mean 64% will vote for him!
Was there a "they're both c**ts" option?
Prize for the most moronic post of the last two days. You must have misplaced the link to Guido's
It is just moronic bilge, daily, from Owls these days. Adds no value, and is mostly just offensive and nasty.
Chill. Come election Greens could end up with no seats, and squeezed down tactically to 3% or less. Calculators give them 2 seats based on polls giving them 6-8%. They won’t get 6-8%. Their Brighton seat likely gone in red wave, they can’t fumble Bristols opportunity or it’s wipe out disaster night.
BJO knows this. If BJO gets up your nose, just ask him for his Green election % and number of seats. 😈
I’m a Green and am deeply pessimistic - I think 0 seats is the most likely outcome, despite potentially a higher overall absolute vote count and share.
It is a long game though, and if it teaches the party that chasing the Momentum vote is not the road to power then that’s a significant silver lining, and we can return to the long-game route of doing well in local politics. Hard yards, for sure, but that’s the real road.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Not quite that quaint. Toolmaking would actually cover making the physical prototypes for machines to work from. It would include such things as making the jigs and gauges and masters and moulds used to operate such things as lathes and milling machines (in the days before the shapes were recorded in digital memories) and injection moulding machines. For instance, to take a familiar example, the body of one's Dinky toy car or Airfix spitfire c. 1970 would be designed from an outsized wooden prototype carving and pantographed down into a two-piece steel mould and polished and detailed. Nowadays the mopulds would be generated from digital files sent by the company designer.
Would skilled Labour such as that have been so poorly paid in his father’s time that they would have their phone cut off for months at a time?
Also remember that this was under nationalised BT, who were rather slow at doing anything.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
It does serve to emphasise the farce that is FPTP.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Son of a toolmaker is not the worst thing to be known as. Better than ‘prominent lefty lawyer’ or something. Or indeed ‘banker and billionaire’s spouse’.
He should own it. As long as he does it with a cheeky smile it's a great line.
"I don't think I've mentioned this before, but my father..."
Rishi was the same with his mother's pharmacy. Overused in the leadership debates against Truss (no-one had told him they were all livestreamed, perhaps) Rishi now leans into it as a joke or meme.
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
If they win a 300 seat majority with 38% it wouldn't be good for democracy.
David Cameron is set to be Winston Churchill or Leo Amery?
You tell me!
(I was thinking of the military side. Make an assault landing with fanfare, in association with the French, and then pull back in a hurry as the situation develops not necessarily to one's advantage elsewhere. But the politics, yes, I suppose it could match too ...)
Dave could be both Amery & Churchill.
In the original version of the thread I did compare Sunak's exit as ignominious as the Dieppe Raid.
Let’s hope Cam’s sprogs are cut from better cloth than those of Churchill and Amery.
I can’t fault Jon Amery’s last words:
“Ah, Mr. Pierrepoint, I’ve always wanted to meet you, but not, I’m sure you’ll understand, under present circumstances.”
I never realised that Leo Amery's son, Julian Amery's brother, was executed as a Nazi collaborator. Quite some family.
"The prospect of a parliamentary run may entice him when the prize is a chance to hollow out the party and occupy its shell ... Sunak’s party must be written off as electoral carrion before the vulture can enjoy its feast. That so many Tories think they see salvation in the scavenger circling overhead only marks them out as ripe to be picked apart."
This is an interesting and hilarious thread about the French election. The French centre right seems to following a script by Armandon Ianucci. It’s bonkers.
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
If they win a 300 seat majority with 38% it wouldn't be good for democracy.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Not quite that quaint. Toolmaking would actually cover making the physical prototypes for machines to work from. It would include such things as making the jigs and gauges and masters and moulds used to operate such things as lathes and milling machines (in the days before the shapes were recorded in digital memories) and injection moulding machines. For instance, to take a familiar example, the body of one's Dinky toy car or Airfix spitfire c. 1970 would be designed from an outsized wooden prototype carving and pantographed down into a two-piece steel mould and polished and detailed. Nowadays the mopulds would be generated from digital files sent by the company designer.
Would skilled Labour such as that have been so poorly paid in his father’s time that they would have their phone cut off for months at a time?
Also remember that this was under nationalised BT, who were rather slow at doing anything.
On the using "My Da was a toolmaker" line too much. There was a poll question from the other day - I can't recall where it was from - that showed 60% of people had still not heard that Starmer's dad was a toolmaker.
This is why in GE the pols repeat the same speech and same points over and over and over again.
The audience are engaged people - why else would they be there?
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
If they win a 300 seat majority with 38% it wouldn't be good for democracy.
Nah, it'll be fine. Plenty of marginal seats in the next election if that were the case.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Son of a toolmaker is not the worst thing to be known as. Better than ‘prominent lefty lawyer’ or something. Or indeed ‘banker and billionaire’s spouse’.
He should own it. As long as he does it with a cheeky smile it's a great line.
"I don't think I've mentioned this before, but my father..."
Rishi was the same with his mother's pharmacy. Overused in the leadership debates against Truss (no-one had told him they were all livestreamed, perhaps) Rishi now leans into it as a joke or meme.
I felt Starmer may have been doing that too a bit last night.
NEW: Nigel Farage reveals he'd be happy to lead a Conservative-Reform merged party...
Suggestions slapped down by Tories across the party including PM...
He couldn't lead a dog, whistle or not.
Nonetheless, Farage's reverse takeover of the Conservative Party was always the plan, hence the name Reform UK, after the Canadian party which did just that.
NEW: Nigel Farage reveals he'd be happy to lead a Conservative-Reform merged party...
Suggestions slapped down by Tories across the party including PM...
"Fuck off, Farage" is a nice chant....
If only you had said that in 2016, eh?
I did.
I have always hated Farage. And if Brexit had been led by Farage, we would still be in the EU. As evidenced by his rogue poster campaign.
Brexit was only won because it was fronted by Boris. HE is the most important figure relating to Brexit. When Farage tries to claim the crown, it should be remembered by Reform voters that he nearly blew it. We were nearly still tied to Bruseel's aporon strings. For eternity.
But if that’s representative, then it’s all Sunak needs….
He only needs to lose a debate by a 2-1 margin?
He only needs to get a decent chunk of 36% of voters to think he’s worth their vote….
The rest don’t matter to him.
His only strategy now is to eat into Reform and hope Labour dips a bit more.
Eh? Just because 64% said Starmer won doesn’t mean 64% will vote for him!
Was there a "they're both c**ts" option?
Prize for the most moronic post of the last two days. You must have misplaced the link to Guido's
It is just moronic bilge, daily, from Owls these days. Adds no value, and is mostly just offensive and nasty.
Chill. Come election Greens could end up with no seats, and squeezed down tactically to 3% or less. Calculators give them 2 seats based on polls giving them 6-8%. They won’t get 6-8%. Their Brighton seat likely gone in red wave, they can’t fumble Bristols opportunity or it’s wipe out disaster night.
BJO knows this. If BJO gets up your nose, just ask him for his Green election % and number of seats. 😈
I’m a Green and am deeply pessimistic - I think 0 seats is the most likely outcome, despite potentially a higher overall absolute vote count and share.
It is a long game though, and if it teaches the party that chasing the Momentum vote is not the road to power then that’s a significant silver lining, and we can return to the long-game route of doing well in local politics. Hard yards, for sure, but that’s the real road.
The Greens' problem is that their environmental agenda is slowly getting implemented by the big parties anyway, and that the animal rights and hard left agenda isn't popular enough. People know that Green is the right vote for faster climate action, but are willing to accept slower climate action plus the more mainstream policies elsewhere. There's no route to power in this system.
There’s more to green movement and environmentalism than climate change though. Shit in the rivers, for example.
One of the reasons I despair of the hard left element is that really a lot of green issues are also things that true Conservatives should be concerned about. On the other hand, I am happy for the party to be primarily a local concern. Yet as the LDs will attest, being good at local politics is the lifeblood of a national party.
The D Day thing is ridiculous though. So Sunak opted out of a second event having attended the first. Is it really apocalyptic?
D-day gate is appalling for several reasons:-
1. insulting the veterans and people who care about the liberation of Europe 2. it nullifies attacks on Labour for not being patriotic enough 3. it allows attacks from RefUK about not being patriotic enough 4. it turns down the best photo-op any of this generation of politicians will have 5. it misses the chance to shoot the breeze with President Biden for an hour or two
Note that 2-5 call into question Rishi and Number 10's political judgement irrespective of the event itself. Just think about how hard British politicians work just to be seen with the American President. Look at the strings Labour pulled to get Keir Starmer within snapping distance.
Even if he was a total self-centred sh*t, number 4 should have been enough to justify the time.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Son of a toolmaker is not the worst thing to be known as. Better than ‘prominent lefty lawyer’ or something. Or indeed ‘banker and billionaire’s spouse’.
He should own it. As long as he does it with a cheeky smile it's a great line.
"I don't think I've mentioned this before, but my father..."
Rishi was the same with his mother's pharmacy. Overused in the leadership debates against Truss (no-one had told him they were all livestreamed, perhaps) Rishi now leans into it as a joke or meme.
I felt Starmer may have been doing that too a bit last night.
Starmer did segue onto how not being able to make ends meet was no laughing matter, which seemed to go down well in the room, judging by the faces of the audience.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Not quite that quaint. Toolmaking would actually cover making the physical prototypes for machines to work from. It would include such things as making the jigs and gauges and masters and moulds used to operate such things as lathes and milling machines (in the days before the shapes were recorded in digital memories) and injection moulding machines. For instance, to take a familiar example, the body of one's Dinky toy car or Airfix spitfire c. 1970 would be designed from an outsized wooden prototype carving and pantographed down into a two-piece steel mould and polished and detailed. Nowadays the mopulds would be generated from digital files sent by the company designer.
Would skilled Labour such as that have been so poorly paid in his father’s time that they would have their phone cut off for months at a time?
Phone ownership in the UK was 35% in 1970 and 52% in 1975 so having a phone to be cut off is evidence that they weren't poorly paid.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Son of a toolmaker is not the worst thing to be known as. Better than ‘prominent lefty lawyer’ or something. Or indeed ‘banker and billionaire’s spouse’.
He should own it. As long as he does it with a cheeky smile it's a great line.
"I don't think I've mentioned this before, but my father..."
Rishi was the same with his mother's pharmacy. Overused in the leadership debates against Truss (no-one had told him they were all livestreamed, perhaps) Rishi now leans into it as a joke or meme.
Dusty says:
The only man I could ever vote for... Was a son of a toolmaker.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Not quite that quaint. Toolmaking would actually cover making the physical prototypes for machines to work from. It would include such things as making the jigs and gauges and masters and moulds used to operate such things as lathes and milling machines (in the days before the shapes were recorded in digital memories) and injection moulding machines. For instance, to take a familiar example, the body of one's Dinky toy car or Airfix spitfire c. 1970 would be designed from an outsized wooden prototype carving and pantographed down into a two-piece steel mould and polished and detailed. Nowadays the mopulds would be generated from digital files sent by the company designer.
Would skilled Labour such as that have been so poorly paid in his father’s time that they would have their phone cut off for months at a time?
Also remember that this was under nationalised BT, who were rather slow at doing anything.
On the using "My Da was a toolmaker" line too much. There was a poll question from the other day - I can't recall where it was from - that showed 60% of people had still not heard that Starmer's dad was a toolmaker.
This is why in GE the pols repeat the same speech and same points over and over and over again.
The audience are engaged people - why else would they be there?
Were the audience laughing at the overuse/downplaying owned a toolmaking company or the joke about spawning a tool for a son, I suspect the latter.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
An astute post. 'Disrespect' is what Kim Kardashian does to second rate Rappers. What Sunak did was something quite different and much more insidious. It showed in glorious technicolour what the Tories are turning this country into and it spooked people.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
You're right about it not becoming a major issue in this election, but I think it provides a general sense of unease to politics in the UK.
By a ratio of at least 3:1, people think the negatives of Brexit outweigh the benefits. For Leavers, immigration is at an all time high - so it was pointless for many. There must be some regret or misgiving there. For Remainers, there is no hint that any party will bring us back in or materially improve our relationship with Europe, so it sits as an open wound.
It's not being spoken about, but I think it contributes to the doom and gloom.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
When the new pro-business Tories take up the cause in 10 years time probably.
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
If they win a 300 seat majority with 38% it wouldn't be good for democracy.
If the Tories think that is unfair they have had 14 years, or 32 years out of the last 50, in which they could have changed it.
David Cameron is set to be Winston Churchill or Leo Amery?
You tell me!
(I was thinking of the military side. Make an assault landing with fanfare, in association with the French, and then pull back in a hurry as the situation develops not necessarily to one's advantage elsewhere. But the politics, yes, I suppose it could match too ...)
Dave could be both Amery & Churchill.
In the original version of the thread I did compare Sunak's exit as ignominious as the Dieppe Raid.
Let’s hope Cam’s sprogs are cut from better cloth than those of Churchill and Amery.
I can’t fault Jon Amery’s last words:
“Ah, Mr. Pierrepoint, I’ve always wanted to meet you, but not, I’m sure you’ll understand, under present circumstances.”
I never realised that Leo Amery's son, Julian Amery's brother, was executed as a Nazi collaborator. Quite some family.
(Not sure how I'd never heard that before.)
There was an episode of Foyles War loosely based on this.
This is simply irrecoverable by the Tories. Never mind "lets hold a snap election and turn things around" they're simply accelerating away towards annihilation.
Unreal clip on Twix of some government minister going on and on about how they are cutting taxes with Sophy Ridge pointing out that they are going up.
Then we get to the denouement - the cut in taxes is *vs the previous forecast*. Not against actuals. So just like inflation its still going up, just by a slower amount. That isn't a "cut" is it. With the exception of the IQ of the Tories arguing that black is actually white.
Again. Root in reality. Yes they're going up. Here's why. "Yes it hurt, yes it worked" Not lying to people's faces.
This is an interesting and hilarious thread about the French election. The French centre right seems to following a script by Armandon Ianucci. It’s bonkers.
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
If they win a 300 seat majority with 38% it wouldn't be good for democracy.
Neither was an 80 seat majority on 43%. With FPTP, them's the breaks.
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
If they win a 300 seat majority with 38% it wouldn't be good for democracy.
Neither was an 80 seat majority on 43%. With FPTP, them's the breaks.
Yeah, the alternative is having a minor party with, say, 15% of the vote controlling the legislative agenda of Government and having an unduly loud voice in the country.
I’d rather have a centrist party in charge on 35% of the vote.
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
If they win a 300 seat majority with 38% it wouldn't be good for democracy.
Even a 1 seat majority on 38% is patently ridiculous.
Blame the minor parties. For centuries, each election was a two-horse race, even if the horses changed. As soon as there are multiple credible other parties, let alone substantial regional parties, there simply is no good answer.
But if that’s representative, then it’s all Sunak needs….
He only needs to lose a debate by a 2-1 margin?
He only needs to get a decent chunk of 36% of voters to think he’s worth their vote….
The rest don’t matter to him.
His only strategy now is to eat into Reform and hope Labour dips a bit more.
Eh? Just because 64% said Starmer won doesn’t mean 64% will vote for him!
Was there a "they're both c**ts" option?
Prize for the most moronic post of the last two days. You must have misplaced the link to Guido's
It is just moronic bilge, daily, from Owls these days. Adds no value, and is mostly just offensive and nasty.
Chill. Come election Greens could end up with no seats, and squeezed down tactically to 3% or less. Calculators give them 2 seats based on polls giving them 6-8%. They won’t get 6-8%. Their Brighton seat likely gone in red wave, they can’t fumble Bristols opportunity or it’s wipe out disaster night.
BJO knows this. If BJO gets up your nose, just ask him for his Green election % and number of seats. 😈
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
If they win a 300 seat majority with 38% it wouldn't be good for democracy.
You haven’t previously opposed FPP as far as I’m aware? Lots of traditional Tories now seem to have found a newborn enthusiasm for PR. Not sure why?
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
When the new pro-business Tories take up the cause in 10 years time probably.
I too am convinced pro-business Tories will return us to the fold. I'll either be dead or too old to care.
This is simply irrecoverable by the Tories. Never mind "lets hold a snap election and turn things around" they're simply accelerating away towards annihilation.
Unreal clip on Twix of some government minister going on and on about how they are cutting taxes with Sophy Ridge pointing out that they are going up.
Then we get to the denouement - the cut in taxes is *vs the previous forecast*. Not against actuals. So just like inflation its still going up, just by a slower amount. That isn't a "cut" is it. With the exception of the IQ of the Tories arguing that black is actually white.
Again. Root in reality. Yes they're going up. Here's why. "Yes it hurt, yes it worked" Not lying to people's faces.
Boris could get away with this stuff, at least for one campaign, possibly he could have done it again. But that kind of obvious lying and making people only hear what they want to despite knowing they are listening to a liar is a rare skill.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
You're right about it not becoming a major issue in this election, but I think it provides a general sense of unease to politics in the UK.
Talking of which, and I don’t want to light a fuse paper, it’s noticeable how little ‘anti-woke' culture wars have featured.
It’s like I’ve been saying on here all along: ordinary voters have FAR more important things on which to be focused right now.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
You're right about it not becoming a major issue in this election, but I think it provides a general sense of unease to politics in the UK.
By a ratio of at least 3:1, people think the negatives of Brexit outweigh the benefits. For Leavers, immigration is at an all time high - so it was pointless for many. There must be some regret or misgiving there. For Remainers, there is no hint that any party will bring us back in or materially improve our relationship with Europe, so it sits as an open wound.
It's not being spoken about, but I think it contributes to the doom and gloom.
I think that is just a cipher for 'things were better before 2016' - which is understandable; the world was a surer place, no Ukraine, no pandemic, no culture wars (at least, not on the scale we see now), less immigration. Understandable people might wish things were otherwise. I'd happily swallow rejoin if it could mean we could wipe out all that other unpleasantness. But clearly, almost everything bad which has happened since 2016 is nothing to do with Brexit, and undoing Brexit wouldn't bring back those apples. That's just the way humans think. Change the thing we did and we can control and undo all those things we can't control.
Sunak looked defeated last night no doubt from the fallout over his DDay antics and, apparently, immediately following the event he got on a plane arriving in Italy at 1.00am for the G7 meeting which I expect he will be the last to leave
I may be wrong but I detect that he may be receiving some sympathy, and in any respect the mental strain on him and his family must be colossal and for as poor as he is, he just cannot leave behind the Johnson and Truss disasters and the only consolation is that it will be over in three weeks
Mind you Starmer was also poor last night, with the audience openly laughing at his 'father was a toolmaker', he was called a robot, and the audience member who heckled Sunak later said that neither Sunak or Starmer have the answers for the NHS
However, he is going to be PM 3 weeks tomorrow and then the real test begins for him, labour, the country and of course the future role of the conservative party in our politics
He would probably be best dropping the “my father was a toolmaker” schtick now as it’s becoming an internet joke with memes about it. He doesn’t need to do it as they are going to win so why bother giving people ammo to mock you.
And sure 'twas no wonder His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
Son of a toolmaker is not the worst thing to be known as. Better than ‘prominent lefty lawyer’ or something. Or indeed ‘banker and billionaire’s spouse’.
He should own it. As long as he does it with a cheeky smile it's a great line.
"I don't think I've mentioned this before, but my father..."
Rishi was the same with his mother's pharmacy. Overused in the leadership debates against Truss (no-one had told him they were all livestreamed, perhaps) Rishi now leans into it as a joke or meme.
Dusty says:
The only man I could ever vote for... Was a son of a toolmaker.
But if that’s representative, then it’s all Sunak needs….
He only needs to lose a debate by a 2-1 margin?
He only needs to get a decent chunk of 36% of voters to think he’s worth their vote….
The rest don’t matter to him.
His only strategy now is to eat into Reform and hope Labour dips a bit more.
Eh? Just because 64% said Starmer won doesn’t mean 64% will vote for him!
Was there a "they're both c**ts" option?
Prize for the most moronic post of the last two days. You must have misplaced the link to Guido's
It is just moronic bilge, daily, from Owls these days. Adds no value, and is mostly just offensive and nasty.
Chill. Come election Greens could end up with no seats, and squeezed down tactically to 3% or less. Calculators give them 2 seats based on polls giving them 6-8%. They won’t get 6-8%. Their Brighton seat likely gone in red wave, they can’t fumble Bristols opportunity or it’s wipe out disaster night.
BJO knows this. If BJO gets up your nose, just ask him for his Green election % and number of seats. 😈
I’m a Green and am deeply pessimistic - I think 0 seats is the most likely outcome, despite potentially a higher overall absolute vote count and share.
It is a long game though, and if it teaches the party that chasing the Momentum vote is not the road to power then that’s a significant silver lining, and we can return to the long-game route of doing well in local politics. Hard yards, for sure, but that’s the real road.
The Greens' problem is that their environmental agenda is slowly getting implemented by the big parties anyway, and that the animal rights and hard left agenda isn't popular enough. People know that Green is the right vote for faster climate action, but are willing to accept slower climate action plus the more mainstream policies elsewhere. There's no route to power in this system.
Firstly, I wouldn't be too pessimistic about the zero seats: I think Bristol Central will go Green. But the point about the Greens being a producer of ideas instead of a route to power is well made. It was a proposed-but-not-written para in the Solarpunk article and will be in either the extended cut or the prequel.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
When the new pro-business Tories take up the cause in 10 years time probably.
I too am convinced pro-business Tories will return us to the fold. I'll either be dead or too old to care.
I am pretty sure that the Tories will stop promising the world on a stick to pensioners and pivot to helping workers in precisely 2040, for that is my retirement age.
This is an interesting and hilarious thread about the French election. The French centre right seems to following a script by Armandon Ianucci. It’s bonkers.
This is simply irrecoverable by the Tories. Never mind "lets hold a snap election and turn things around" they're simply accelerating away towards annihilation.
Unreal clip on Twix of some government minister going on and on about how they are cutting taxes with Sophy Ridge pointing out that they are going up.
Then we get to the denouement - the cut in taxes is *vs the previous forecast*. Not against actuals. So just like inflation its still going up, just by a slower amount. That isn't a "cut" is it. With the exception of the IQ of the Tories arguing that black is actually white.
Again. Root in reality. Yes they're going up. Here's why. "Yes it hurt, yes it worked" Not lying to people's faces.
Boris could get away with this stuff, at least for one campaign, possibly he could have done it again. But that kind of obvious lying and making people only hear what they want to despite knowing they are listening to a liar is a rare skill.
While I think he would be doing better than Sunak, Spaffer's number was up in the public eye. I think he realised this, which is why he's retreated for a while. He will be back.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
You're right about it not becoming a major issue in this election, but I think it provides a general sense of unease to politics in the UK.
By a ratio of at least 3:1, people think the negatives of Brexit outweigh the benefits. For Leavers, immigration is at an all time high - so it was pointless for many. There must be some regret or misgiving there. For Remainers, there is no hint that any party will bring us back in or materially improve our relationship with Europe, so it sits as an open wound.
It's not being spoken about, but I think it contributes to the doom and gloom.
I think that is just a cipher for 'things were better before 2016' - which is understandable; the world was a surer place, no Ukraine, no pandemic, no culture wars (at least, not on the scale we see now), less immigration. Understandable people might wish things were otherwise. I'd happily swallow rejoin if it could mean we could wipe out all that other unpleasantness. But clearly, almost everything bad which has happened since 2016 is nothing to do with Brexit, and undoing Brexit wouldn't bring back those apples. That's just the way humans think. Change the thing we did and we can control and undo all those things we can't control.
The other issue is the extent to which European nations themselves are changing politically.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
You're right about it not becoming a major issue in this election, but I think it provides a general sense of unease to politics in the UK.
Talking of which, and I don’t want to light a fuse paper, it’s noticeable how little ‘anti-woke' culture wars have featured.
It’s like I’ve been saying on here all along: ordinary voters have FAR more important things on which to be focused right now.
Indeed. OTOH, three weeks to go, and who's to say what the Tories will do in their panic? Their shtick is wokehunting , after all, like a bad Edinburgh Fringe comedian. It's certainly not national defence, or sound money, or law and order ...
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
You're right about it not becoming a major issue in this election, but I think it provides a general sense of unease to politics in the UK.
By a ratio of at least 3:1, people think the negatives of Brexit outweigh the benefits. For Leavers, immigration is at an all time high - so it was pointless for many. There must be some regret or misgiving there. For Remainers, there is no hint that any party will bring us back in or materially improve our relationship with Europe, so it sits as an open wound.
It's not being spoken about, but I think it contributes to the doom and gloom.
I think that is just a cipher for 'things were better before 2016' - which is understandable; the world was a surer place, no Ukraine, no pandemic, no culture wars (at least, not on the scale we see now), less immigration. Understandable people might wish things were otherwise. I'd happily swallow rejoin if it could mean we could wipe out all that other unpleasantness. But clearly, almost everything bad which has happened since 2016 is nothing to do with Brexit, and undoing Brexit wouldn't bring back those apples. That's just the way humans think. Change the thing we did and we can control and undo all those things we can't control.
If we were still in the EU, today’s news headline would be that electric cars are about to get more expensive, the EU voting for protectionism over Net Zero.
Great for the campaigners who think cars are evil and we should all get the bus, for for the average motorist who just to get from A to B as cheaply as possible, not so much.
This is simply irrecoverable by the Tories. Never mind "lets hold a snap election and turn things around" they're simply accelerating away towards annihilation.
Unreal clip on Twix of some government minister going on and on about how they are cutting taxes with Sophy Ridge pointing out that they are going up.
Then we get to the denouement - the cut in taxes is *vs the previous forecast*. Not against actuals. So just like inflation its still going up, just by a slower amount. That isn't a "cut" is it. With the exception of the IQ of the Tories arguing that black is actually white.
Again. Root in reality. Yes they're going up. Here's why. "Yes it hurt, yes it worked" Not lying to people's faces.
Boris could get away with this stuff, at least for one campaign, possibly he could have done it again. But that kind of obvious lying and making people only hear what they want to despite knowing they are listening to a liar is a rare skill.
The trouble is politicians' rhetoric about tax cuts and inflation runs smack into what the cool kids term "lived experience". Here is a 30-second video from the TUC explaining this that should be compulsory viewing for all candidates:- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/coAnaLQtNh0
But if that’s representative, then it’s all Sunak needs….
He only needs to lose a debate by a 2-1 margin?
He only needs to get a decent chunk of 36% of voters to think he’s worth their vote….
The rest don’t matter to him.
His only strategy now is to eat into Reform and hope Labour dips a bit more.
Eh? Just because 64% said Starmer won doesn’t mean 64% will vote for him!
Was there a "they're both c**ts" option?
Prize for the most moronic post of the last two days. You must have misplaced the link to Guido's
It is just moronic bilge, daily, from Owls these days. Adds no value, and is mostly just offensive and nasty.
Chill. Come election Greens could end up with no seats, and squeezed down tactically to 3% or less. Calculators give them 2 seats based on polls giving them 6-8%. They won’t get 6-8%. Their Brighton seat likely gone in red wave, they can’t fumble Bristols opportunity or it’s wipe out disaster night.
BJO knows this. If BJO gets up your nose, just ask him for his Green election % and number of seats. 😈
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
What kind of numbers do you think Labour could drift out too, and (presumably) the Tories gain, to bring the majority into question?
I'm sure if we Baxter them it will still bring a sizeable Labour majority
I honestly have no idea, does anyone? Reform could continue their rise - or fall back. Labour could continue to slide, or surge again
it’s a long campaign and neither of the big parties has much enthusiasm behind them, but the Tories are viscerally hated and Labour are merely tolerated as an alternative - for now
If I was in the Lib Dems I would be shouting loudly about Single Market membership immediately to peel off Labour Remainers, and then also a promise of referendum on Rejoin in a few years. That would be cat in the pigeons territory and could upend everything
I’ve no idea why they aren’t slotting this open goal
I will shit my boxers with pleasure if Labour slip into the 30s on the night.
Probably the one pleasure I will get. It will set off all sorts of internal recriminations and legitimacy questions, which will dog SKS for his whole time in office.
This is disingenuous, as well as untrue.
One of the reasons Labour are, or may, poll sub 40 (I think it will be 37-39.5%) is because there’s a much more savvy anti-tory vote now. I’m a case in point but just one of millions. I want to vote Labour, naturally, but I’m voting LibDem to unseat the tory MP.
So make up whatever discourse you want on the night if that makes you happy but it won’t be objective truth.
37% would be a pretty underwhelming 4 point increase on the last election.
Blair won a 62 seat majority on 35.2% in 2005.
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
If they win a 300 seat majority with 38% it wouldn't be good for democracy.
You haven’t previously opposed FPP as far as I’m aware? Lots of traditional Tories now seem to have found a newborn enthusiasm for PR. Not sure why?
Morning all. Halfway to polling day and no sign of any sort of Tory recovery. I think they are down to hoping the 'ever blues' hold their nose one more time to save as many as possible. What's the aim, realistically? I guess get within 15 points and hold 150 plus. Labour will be looking at 40% and thinking 'bank!" - any 40 score and they are on easy Street
I didn’t realise BJO was a Green. I genuinely thought from his posts that Big John was a Brexit-loving Red Wall Faragist who hated SKS because of his London wokeness.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
You're right about it not becoming a major issue in this election, but I think it provides a general sense of unease to politics in the UK.
Talking of which, and I don’t want to light a fuse paper, it’s noticeable how little ‘anti-woke' culture wars have featured.
It’s like I’ve been saying on here all along: ordinary voters have FAR more important things on which to be focused right now.
Maybe it's happening below the radar in FB ads directed at Tory-leaning Karens?
We've still not got all the information let alone the data tables from People Polling so no idea what to make of its current offering.
We'll probably get the weekly offerings from the likes of We Think and Techne but the gap remains about 20 points - Labour close to 40, the Conservatives close to 20, Reform in the mid teens, LDs in the low double figures. You can slice and dice that how you like but the net effect is a substantial Labour majority in the next Commons.
The key now is whether the Conservatives can hold on to second place in terms of seats in the next Parliament.
Yet here in ultra-marginal East Ham election activity is non existant (we had the Newham Independents leafletting at the tube station one evening). Labour's activists seem to have gone to Colchester and the other parties are not going to waste their limited resources on the seat.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
You're right about it not becoming a major issue in this election, but I think it provides a general sense of unease to politics in the UK.
By a ratio of at least 3:1, people think the negatives of Brexit outweigh the benefits. For Leavers, immigration is at an all time high - so it was pointless for many. There must be some regret or misgiving there. For Remainers, there is no hint that any party will bring us back in or materially improve our relationship with Europe, so it sits as an open wound.
It's not being spoken about, but I think it contributes to the doom and gloom.
I think that is just a cipher for 'things were better before 2016' - which is understandable; the world was a surer place, no Ukraine, no pandemic, no culture wars (at least, not on the scale we see now), less immigration. Understandable people might wish things were otherwise. I'd happily swallow rejoin if it could mean we could wipe out all that other unpleasantness. But clearly, almost everything bad which has happened since 2016 is nothing to do with Brexit, and undoing Brexit wouldn't bring back those apples. That's just the way humans think. Change the thing we did and we can control and undo all those things we can't control.
The other issue is the extent to which European nations themselves are changing politically.
You've got to admire the deflection, clearly not everything that is worse than pre-2016 is due to Brexit, but customs barriers to trade with EU, loss of FOM for UK citizens, additional regulation to replace (in reality in addition to the internationally recognised) EU regs are and they all add cost or drastically reduce competitiveness.
Would she know what the BDM was, in fairness? It's a bit niche by now. Edit: not everyone is into military history.
I suspect she would know - born in '57.
Only if she read Commando comics or watched certain films. The BDM was an American [edit] and Filipino thing anyway - River Kwai and the Burma Railway would be much more familiar.
Biden and Sunak were both praised by big-stateish economists and academics for giant magic money tree (MMT) stimulus. Now that it has turned out inflation wasn't abolished, both men appear to be paying the price.
The key takehome from the D-Day debacle is that the vast majority of the electorate like to see britain along side neighbours and allies affirming its international commitment..... a britain at the heart of the western international community honouring that heritage.... basically the opposite of free wheeling go it alone brexiteerism. I saw Marr's piece in the New Statesman talking about rejoining the single market
"But the country has already changed its mind about his rotten Brexit deal, and there would be no opportunity like Labour’s first 18 months to improve relations with the giant market on our doorstep. As the EU grapples with the problem of enlargement to its east and populism at home, the notion of a more flexible, less monolithic EU of concentric or interlocking circles is growing in potency."
What I am looking for in Labour's manifesto is silence on the EU - that will (ironically) be a huge indicator to me where things are going. It will be a carte blance on EU trading relations and security agreements.
Sunak's actions on leaving the D-Day celebrations were very much a tacit expression of inward looking, isolationist ethos of the populist right, and its time has come.... I seriously think the country is turning a corner on brexit going into the next parliament.
Lol, this is an absolutely brilliant example of the genre: "What D-Day was really about is rejoining the single market".
You've got to admire the creativity, the imagination, the insightful juxtaposition of two apparently unrelated topics ;-)
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Not until you die off anyway.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
You're right about it not becoming a major issue in this election, but I think it provides a general sense of unease to politics in the UK.
By a ratio of at least 3:1, people think the negatives of Brexit outweigh the benefits. For Leavers, immigration is at an all time high - so it was pointless for many. There must be some regret or misgiving there. For Remainers, there is no hint that any party will bring us back in or materially improve our relationship with Europe, so it sits as an open wound.
It's not being spoken about, but I think it contributes to the doom and gloom.
Quite so, despite the decriers on here.
Now RP really does know chapter and verse on some of the real problems - and he's in an excellent position to assess some of the others as a LD candidate in a farmin' and fishin' constituency. Maybe when it's all over we can ask him his assessment of the campaign (would be unfair to ask him right now as he might not want to let too many cats out of bags).
Another massive British company about to fall into foreign ownership? A french tycoon already has a chunk as do, I think, German state telecoms company.
Royal Mail seems destined to be non-UK within months.
NEW: Nigel Farage reveals he'd be happy to lead a Conservative-Reform merged party...
Suggestions slapped down by Tories across the party including PM...
More than a whiff of hubris there!
I'm not sure it is in the gift of the current Tory leadership, or even the rump of MPs in 4 weeks time. It rather depends on what happens in Clacton, and then in a few hundred local Party execs.
Biden and Sunak were both praised by big-stateish economists and academics for giant magic money tree (MMT) stimulus. Now that it has turned out inflation wasn't abolished, both men appear to be paying the price.
But the Americans passed the “Inflation Reduction Act”, so it’s the law that inflation has to go down.
More seriously, incumbents everywhere are getting the ire of the electorate at the moment, France will likely be the same.
Zero interest rates are unlikely to be coming back any time soon though, and the best thing that we can do for stability in the short term is to kick Putin’s army out of Ukraine.
Another massive British company about to fall into foreign ownership? A french tycoon already has a chunk as do, I think, German state telecoms company.
Royal Mail seems destined to be non-UK within months.
We are out of our minds.
Yet still no-one talks about the balance of payments deficit. Before 1992 this figure was headline news every month.
Morning all. Halfway to polling day and no sign of any sort of Tory recovery. I think they are down to hoping the 'ever blues' hold their nose one more time to save as many as possible. What's the aim, realistically? I guess get within 15 points and hold 150 plus. Labour will be looking at 40% and thinking 'bank!" - any 40 score and they are on easy Street
To be cynical, Labour would be happy with a 1997-style result for two reasons. First, it ensures they will probably have at least 10 years in Government given the Conservative propensity to descend into soul-searching irrelevance in opposition and second, IF the Conservatives are still the second largest party in terms of seats in the Commons, the duopoly will be preserved and the attack lines for Labour become much easier.
Were Davey and the LDs to be the opposition, however, it would be tougher for Starmer and Labour as they wouldn't be able to point across the floor to the Commons and blame the "party opposite" for all the travails and problems, both the genuine inheritance and the consequences of the new Government's incompetence. The attack lines wouldn't be so obvious - yes, the Coalition, but that's ancient history and no one will accept that.
LDs are used to being in opposition and I suspect they would be criticising the new Government more effectively than the Conservatives from the start. Keeping the leader of the Conservative Party opposite would be much easier for Prime Minister Starmer than having to deal with Ed Davey.
Comments
Also we have the Euros starting soon.
His mother and father were toolmakers too
It's an inherently quaint and old fashioned thing to be - presumably tools are made by robots these days.
If they were losing votes to the Conservatives I suppose it would be different, but they can can afford a considerable drift to other parties before it starts to hurt them.
Starmer still looks nailed on for a big majority but thenext few polls should be interesting.
2. They know the parties all lie on this, misdirect if people prefer. Indeed the Tory tax cut lies seem worse than the Labour no tax rise lies.
3. People want better public services than we have at the moment, and understand that is going to need extra cash, at least in the short term.
4. No-one is willing to listen to anything the Tories have to say at the moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhBd0bmzCns
The reason it's resonated is because it totemises everyone's concerns about Sunak; it gives a label to everything about him.
Mr. JS, that is a bloody precise bet. Good luck.
BJO knows this. If BJO gets up your nose, just ask him for his Green election % and number of seats. 😈
However, if you want fairness, politics is not the game for you.
"I don't think I've mentioned this before, but my father..."
We Remainers are never going to go away.
Prime Minister Farage would have most of us scouring the map for somewhere that would take us. Perhaps a good business opportunity for Rwanda.
1. insulting the veterans and people who care about the liberation of Europe
2. it nullifies attacks on Labour for not being patriotic enough
3. it allows attacks from RefUK about not being patriotic enough
4. it turns down the best photo-op any of this generation of politicians will have
5. it misses the chance to shoot the breeze with President Biden for an hour or two
Note that 2-5 call into question Rishi and Number 10's political judgement irrespective of the event itself. Just think about how hard British politicians work just to be seen with the American President. Look at the strings Labour pulled to get Keir Starmer within snapping distance.
“Ah, Mr. Pierrepoint, I’ve always wanted to meet you, but not, I’m sure you’ll understand, under present circumstances.”
I don’t think it will unduly concern Labour if they win
It is a long game though, and if it teaches the party that chasing the Momentum vote is not the road to power then that’s a significant silver lining, and we can return to the long-game route of doing well in local politics. Hard yards, for sure, but that’s the real road.
There is nothing to "Remain" part of. You lost that war. We left the EU.
There is only Rejoin. And that is the dog that hasn't barked in this election. And if not this, then when?
(Not sure how I'd never heard that before.)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/16/nigel-farage-aim-pick-apart-carcass-tory-party-election-reform
"The prospect of a parliamentary run may entice him when the prize is a chance to hollow out the party and occupy its shell ... Sunak’s party must be written off as electoral carrion before the vulture can enjoy its feast. That so many Tories think they see salvation in the scavenger circling overhead only marks them out as ripe to be picked apart."
This is why in GE the pols repeat the same speech and same points over and over and over again.
The audience are engaged people - why else would they be there?
I have always hated Farage. And if Brexit had been led by Farage, we would still be in the EU. As evidenced by his rogue poster campaign.
Brexit was only won because it was fronted by Boris. HE is the most important figure relating to Brexit. When Farage tries to claim the crown, it should be remembered by Reform voters that he nearly blew it. We were nearly still tied to Bruseel's aporon strings. For eternity.
Thanks Nige. You twat.
One of the reasons I despair of the hard left element is that really a lot of green issues are also things that true Conservatives should be concerned about. On the other hand, I am happy for the party to be primarily a local concern. Yet as the LDs will attest, being good at local politics is the lifeblood of a national party.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/289158/telephone-presence-in-households-in-the-uk/
Telephone usage costs back then would have been much, much higher as well.
The only man I could ever vote for...
Was a son of a toolmaker.
By a ratio of at least 3:1, people think the negatives of Brexit outweigh the benefits. For Leavers, immigration is at an all time high - so it was pointless for many. There must be some regret or misgiving there. For Remainers, there is no hint that any party will bring us back in or materially improve our relationship with Europe, so it sits as an open wound.
It's not being spoken about, but I think it contributes to the doom and gloom.
Unreal clip on Twix of some government minister going on and on about how they are cutting taxes with Sophy Ridge pointing out that they are going up.
Then we get to the denouement - the cut in taxes is *vs the previous forecast*. Not against actuals. So just like inflation its still going up, just by a slower amount. That isn't a "cut" is it. With the exception of the IQ of the Tories arguing that black is actually white.
Again. Root in reality. Yes they're going up. Here's why. "Yes it hurt, yes it worked" Not lying to people's faces.
Thoroughly recommend everyone to read through it.
I’d rather have a centrist party in charge on 35% of the vote.
It’s the lesser of two evils.
It’s like I’ve been saying on here all along: ordinary voters have FAR more important things on which to be focused right now.
That's just the way humans think. Change the thing we did and we can control and undo all those things we can't control.
https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/05/12/solarpunk/
It’s very funny and, as @ToryJim said, bonkers.
https://x.com/dawnbutlerbrent/status/1801151657008333019?s=46
politically.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-electric-vehicles/chinese-evs-be-hit-much-38-extra-eu-import-tax
Great for the campaigners who think cars are evil and we should all get the bus, for for the average motorist who just to get from A to B as cheaply as possible, not so much.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/coAnaLQtNh0
Funny old world.
Three weeks to go it would seem.
We've still not got all the information let alone the data tables from People Polling so no idea what to make of its current offering.
We'll probably get the weekly offerings from the likes of We Think and Techne but the gap remains about 20 points - Labour close to 40, the Conservatives close to 20, Reform in the mid teens, LDs in the low double figures. You can slice and dice that how you like but the net effect is a substantial Labour majority in the next Commons.
The key now is whether the Conservatives can hold on to second place in terms of seats in the next Parliament.
Yet here in ultra-marginal East Ham election activity is non existant (we had the Newham Independents leafletting at the tube station one evening). Labour's activists seem to have gone to Colchester and the other parties are not going to waste their limited resources on the seat.
Now RP really does know chapter and verse on some of the real problems - and he's in an excellent position to assess some of the others as a LD candidate in a farmin' and fishin' constituency. Maybe when it's all over we can ask him his assessment of the campaign (would be unfair to ask him right now as he might not want to let too many cats out of bags).
Another massive British company about to fall into foreign ownership? A french tycoon already has a chunk as do, I think, German state telecoms company.
Royal Mail seems destined to be non-UK within months.
We are out of our minds.
With 300,000 people now waiting longer than a year
Not good news for @RishiSunak - given how his record on waiting lists was already very difficult on last night’s @SkyNews debate
https://x.com/darrenmccaffrey/status/1801172232862892499?s=46
It’s like an exquisite form of Chinese water torture… drip drip drip
More seriously, incumbents everywhere are getting the ire of the electorate at the moment, France will likely be the same.
Zero interest rates are unlikely to be coming back any time soon though, and the best thing that we can do for stability in the short term is to kick Putin’s army out of Ukraine.
Were Davey and the LDs to be the opposition, however, it would be tougher for Starmer and Labour as they wouldn't be able to point across the floor to the Commons and blame the "party opposite" for all the travails and problems, both the genuine inheritance and the consequences of the new Government's incompetence. The attack lines wouldn't be so obvious - yes, the Coalition, but that's ancient history and no one will accept that.
LDs are used to being in opposition and I suspect they would be criticising the new Government more effectively than the Conservatives from the start. Keeping the leader of the Conservative Party opposite would be much easier for Prime Minister Starmer than having to deal with Ed Davey.