OT. Interesting Any Questions today. Biggest cheer of the day for the SNP MP who wanted to cancel Brexit and rejoin. Every time the word was mentioned there was a huge cheer. (From a Tory constituency as well). Somebody or other is throwing away a potential USP that comes with great big flashing lights
FFS. You can’t “cancel” Brexit anymore than I can cancel my 50th birthday. I’d like to do both but sadly both have happened. Britain has Exited the EU. That’s Brexit. People (myself included) might want to rejoin but people (myself included) don’t want to rip the country apart again through another Referendum. If you lived in this country you’d realise how strong this feeling is. Most 2016 Remainers don’t want to gone through the pain of reopening the wounds, however much we regret the 2016 outcome. Another referendum would just recreate the recent chaos.
Just take French citizenship Roger. It’s because of people like you we lost. The best we can hope for for a generation is closer relations and possibly Single Market. We won’t rejoin until the pain of the last Referendum is long gone and, likely, both you and I are too.
Quite apart from the terms on which we'd re-enter. No rebate, Schengen, Euro, full slate of workers' rights etc all firmly on the table. Suspect we'd soon realise what a decent compromise we'd had in the status quo ante.
The scenario outlined in that Bloomberg article seems quite plausible. If the Tories are left with 100-150 seats and Farage gets elected but Reform fail to break through in terms of seats, there will be a lot of pressure to let him join the party and run for the leadership.
It might lead to a load of Never-Farage Tories leaving the party, but would mean we'd be left with a consolidated right-wing movement.
No we would not as the very significant chunk of right wingers, like myself, @Big_G_NorthWales and many, many, many more on here alone who despise Farage would be left outside the party of the right.
You're more of a liberal internationalist, so maybe you would be more at home in a party of like-minded people.
I'm more of a liberal nationalist than a liberal internationalist.
And having disparate parties of "like minded people" is not united big tent parties like you claimed.
Liberal nationalism is pretty much Farage's philosophical position, so why do you despise him?
How the hell is Farage liberal !?
What makes you think otherwise? He's a fiscal conservative who opposes the nanny state and has libertarian instincts.
Is it purely the opposition to mass immigration that you object to?
Net migration of zero is not an opposition to "mass" immigration.
He's a racist xenophobe, not just anti-migration.
And he's illiberal. He opposed equal marriage, how is that libertarian? His policies in this election include illiberally banning schools from teaching "gender ideology" or "critical race theory" - how is that liberal, to ban schools and universities from teaching things?
He's not remotely liberal. And more importantly he's a nasty, racist, xenophobic shit.
Perfectly put
Nigel Farage is an absolute hero. A decent funny pint drinking English gent. Liberal and authentic, funny and charismatic. And smarter than all of the other leaders put together. There is a reason he is the most popular politician in the country
1. He isn't a hero 2. He isn't very funny 3. He's certainly not a gent 4. He isn't Liberal 5. He isn't authentic 6. He isn't funny 7. He isn't smart let alone smarter than the other leaders put together. I mean, YOU may hate Sunak and Starmer but they're 100x smarter than Farage and, by the sounds of it, you. 8. He isn't the most popular poitician in the country
9. You came out with all this sort of crap over Liz Truss
Urgent Sentencing Review with Automatic Life Imprisonment for Violent Repeat Offenders. Those committing second violent or serious offences will receive mandatory life sentences.
Increase the Criminal Justice Budget. The budget is almost the same as it was 10 years ago. Increase it from £10 billion to £12 billion to ensure more high calibre staff to cut delays.
Change the Definition of Hate Crime. The CPS and police definition of a hate crime has led to systemic bias. Members of the British public must not be investigated because ‘any’ person ‘perceives’ that a hate crime has been committed. Proper evidence must be required. Enforce existing laws to stop violent, hate demonstrations such as the Free-Palestine marches.
Commence building of 10,000 New Detention Places. Start expansion in capacity of state built and managed prisons so that life means life for those who endanger the public. Commission disused military bases if needed.
Tackle Organised Crime. Foreign gang crime accounts for most organised crime in the UK at a cost of £37 billion per year. This includes drugs, people trafficking and money laundering through barber shops, car washes and nail bars. Increase budget for both the National Crime Agency and The National Drugs Intelligence Unit.
Thereafter Justice tick Reform the Child Maintenance Service. The CMS is failing children and parents. It should be a Mediation Service and means-tested child support for parents who cannot arrange finances. Launch a special division of the family court for maintenance and defaults. Share parental care 50/50 where appropriate. Rights of access for Grandparents.
Stop Child Grooming Gangs. Systematic child sexual abuse continues unchecked. Child Protection Services needs a dedicated National Agency working with local charities, councils and health services. Upgraded intelligence can identify high-risk children and filter malicious claims.
Tackle Youth Crime. Reopen High Intensity Training Camps for young offenders to teach basic education, teamwork and values. Military veterans can provide role models. This model worked at Thorn Cross in the 1990s. It is needed more than ever.
Urgent Sentencing Review with Automatic Life Imprisonment for Violent Repeat Offenders. Those committing second violent or serious offences will receive mandatory life sentences.
Increase the Criminal Justice Budget. The budget is almost the same as it was 10 years ago. Increase it from £10 billion to £12 billion to ensure more high calibre staff to cut delays.
Change the Definition of Hate Crime. The CPS and police definition of a hate crime has led to systemic bias. Members of the British public must not be investigated because ‘any’ person ‘perceives’ that a hate crime has been committed. Proper evidence must be required. Enforce existing laws to stop violent, hate demonstrations such as the Free-Palestine marches.
Commence building of 10,000 New Detention Places. Start expansion in capacity of state built and managed prisons so that life means life for those who endanger the public. Commission disused military bases if needed.
Tackle Organised Crime. Foreign gang crime accounts for most organised crime in the UK at a cost of £37 billion per year. This includes drugs, people trafficking and money laundering through barber shops, car washes and nail bars. Increase budget for both the National Crime Agency and The National Drugs Intelligence Unit.
Thereafter Justice tick Reform the Child Maintenance Service. The CMS is failing children and parents. It should be a Mediation Service and means-tested child support for parents who cannot arrange finances. Launch a special division of the family court for maintenance and defaults. Share parental care 50/50 where appropriate. Rights of access for Grandparents.
Stop Child Grooming Gangs. Systematic child sexual abuse continues unchecked. Child Protection Services needs a dedicated National Agency working with local charities, councils and health services. Upgraded intelligence can identify high-risk children and filter malicious claims.
Tackle Youth Crime. Reopen High Intensity Training Camps for young offenders to teach basic education, teamwork and values. Military veterans can provide role models. This model worked at Thorn Cross in the 1990s. It is needed more than ever.
So their justice policy criminalises support for a Palestinian state. It also mandates life imprisonment for those who “endanger the public” - like SC judges according the Mail. How is this “liberal”?
We are at the end of an era. When historians come to write proper accounts of the 2010-2024 period, who amount the governing party(s) will be remembered?
Here’s my list, to qualify you need to have had a significant role and or had an important impact on the period.
In rough chronological order:
David Cameron George Osborne Michael Gove William Hague Nick Clegg Theresa May Boris Johnson Dominic Cummings David Davis Philip Hammond Rishi Sunak Liz Truss Matt Hancock Jeremy Hunt
Honourable mentions: Vince Cable, Andrew Lansley, Danny Alexander, Steve Baker, Chris Grayling, Ruth Davison, Amber Rudd, Priti Patel, Ben Wallace, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Suella Braverman, Kwasi Kwarteng.
I've just bet a small amount on David Cameron as next PM at 66/1. I don't think an emergency ejection can be ruled out if it looks like a total wipeout is otherwise on the cards.
There is no "parliamentary party" at the moment to VoNC through the 1922 committee, but Sunak might simply be told to go immediately and agree to do so.
A single candidate could then be elected inside a week, just as Sunak replaced Truss.
Why would the King appoint Cameron if the Tories elected him? What would be the constitutional basis for that appointment. Advice of his predecessor? There’s no Commons, so why should a member of the Conservative Party be appointed instead of anyone else? Not happening. The Tory Party have no standing to require one of their number be appointed.
It's a good question but if the PM resigns then the King has to appoint another. There cannot be no PM.
Since all other of the King's ministers remain in place and they are Conservative ministers until the election changes things it follows the PM would also need to be a Conservative.
Urgent Sentencing Review with Automatic Life Imprisonment for Violent Repeat Offenders. Those committing second violent or serious offences will receive mandatory life sentences.
Increase the Criminal Justice Budget. The budget is almost the same as it was 10 years ago. Increase it from £10 billion to £12 billion to ensure more high calibre staff to cut delays.
Change the Definition of Hate Crime. The CPS and police definition of a hate crime has led to systemic bias. Members of the British public must not be investigated because ‘any’ person ‘perceives’ that a hate crime has been committed. Proper evidence must be required. Enforce existing laws to stop violent, hate demonstrations such as the Free-Palestine marches.
Commence building of 10,000 New Detention Places. Start expansion in capacity of state built and managed prisons so that life means life for those who endanger the public. Commission disused military bases if needed.
Tackle Organised Crime. Foreign gang crime accounts for most organised crime in the UK at a cost of £37 billion per year. This includes drugs, people trafficking and money laundering through barber shops, car washes and nail bars. Increase budget for both the National Crime Agency and The National Drugs Intelligence Unit.
Thereafter Justice tick Reform the Child Maintenance Service. The CMS is failing children and parents. It should be a Mediation Service and means-tested child support for parents who cannot arrange finances. Launch a special division of the family court for maintenance and defaults. Share parental care 50/50 where appropriate. Rights of access for Grandparents.
Stop Child Grooming Gangs. Systematic child sexual abuse continues unchecked. Child Protection Services needs a dedicated National Agency working with local charities, councils and health services. Upgraded intelligence can identify high-risk children and filter malicious claims.
Tackle Youth Crime. Reopen High Intensity Training Camps for young offenders to teach basic education, teamwork and values. Military veterans can provide role models. This model worked at Thorn Cross in the 1990s. It is needed more than ever.
Looks like they could use a football stadium or two
Mordaunt -19 in the debate. To be honest I’d have scored her net positive so I do wonder again if it’s just another sign the public gave up with the Tories long ago.
About 2.6 years ago to be precise. That's when the ship began sinking after Captain Boris crashed it into some rocks, then Truss drilled a whole in the bottom, Sunak patched it up with some emergency planks, but they've been taking on water constantly since, and about 3 weeks ago he decided to jump on the planks to reopen the hole.
I do think we will come to believe that this election was lost in 2022.
Johnson should have gone after Hartlepool and he'd have won a landslide then. That was the peak and it's been downhill ever since.
Of course, the Tories were never truly popular but SKS for a while was doing terribly. So the Tories had room there to defeat him.
Support for Labour is a mile wide but an inch deep.
They are primarily a rejection mechanism for the present administration- their fundamentals are pretty poor.
I think you are wrong. I think we're about to enter another 3 term period of Labour rule, a period which the Tories may not survive in their current form (although something non-Labour will emerge as an alternative in time).
I could of course be wrong and you will be welcome to say 'I told you so' loudly and often if that proves the case.
I think I'm right. But I won't say 'I told you you so' because that'll be annoying for you to hear and I don't particularly care about being seen to be right.
But, anyone who automatically assumes 2-3 terms or 10-15 years minimum is simply projecting present day support wildly into the future and assuming that nothing will change and everything will stay the same.
That's not how it works, nor what the fundamentals show, so it essentially demonstrates a failure of imagination.
FWIW I think either of you could be right. There's no automaticity about Labour continuing for three terms but I think Starmer is very keen to make it so. So far he's hardly put a foot wrong. Also people fed up with Labour need a viable alternative to switch their votes. The Conservatives need to deal with Reform and then make themselves attractive to those voting Labour in this election.
I don't think labour will get near 3 terms frankly they will be lucky to get 2 terms for the simple reason they are going to be centrist and it is not going to fix any of our problems because centrism is what landed us here. I suspect the next governement after starmers will be either harder right or harder left because centrism will be seen to be a dead end
We are at the end of an era. When historians come to write proper accounts of the 2010-2024 period, who amount the governing party(s) will be remembered?
Here’s my list, to qualify you need to have had a significant role and or had an important impact on the period.
In rough chronological order:
David Cameron George Osborne Michael Gove William Hague Nick Clegg Theresa May Boris Johnson Dominic Cummings David Davis Philip Hammond Rishi Sunak Liz Truss Matt Hancock Jeremy Hunt
Honourable mentions: Vince Cable, Andrew Lansley, Danny Alexander, Steve Baker, Chris Grayling, Ruth Davison, Amber Rudd, Priti Patel, Ben Wallace, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Suella Braverman, Kwasi Kwarteng.
Milliband and Corbyn should be on the list. Both made significant contributions.
Mordaunt -19 in the debate. To be honest I’d have scored her net positive so I do wonder again if it’s just another sign the public gave up with the Tories long ago.
About 2.6 years ago to be precise. That's when the ship began sinking after Captain Boris crashed it into some rocks, then Truss drilled a whole in the bottom, Sunak patched it up with some emergency planks, but they've been taking on water constantly since, and about 3 weeks ago he decided to jump on the planks to reopen the hole.
I do think we will come to believe that this election was lost in 2022.
Johnson should have gone after Hartlepool and he'd have won a landslide then. That was the peak and it's been downhill ever since.
Of course, the Tories were never truly popular but SKS for a while was doing terribly. So the Tories had room there to defeat him.
Support for Labour is a mile wide but an inch deep.
They are primarily a rejection mechanism for the present administration- their fundamentals are pretty poor.
I think you are wrong. I think we're about to enter another 3 term period of Labour rule, a period which the Tories may not survive in their current form (although something non-Labour will emerge as an alternative in time).
I could of course be wrong and you will be welcome to say 'I told you so' loudly and often if that proves the case.
I think I'm right. But I won't say 'I told you you so' because that'll be annoying for you to hear and I don't particularly care about being seen to be right.
But, anyone who automatically assumes 2-3 terms or 10-15 years minimum is simply projecting present day support wildly into the future and assuming that nothing will change and everything will stay the same.
That's not how it works, nor what the fundamentals show, so it essentially demonstrates a failure of imagination.
FWIW I think either of you could be right. There's no automaticity about Labour continuing for three terms but I think Starmer is very keen to make it so. So far he's hardly put a foot wrong. Also people fed up with Labour need a viable alternative to switch their votes. The Conservatives need to deal with Reform and then make themselves attractive to those voting Labour in this election.
I don't think labour will get near 3 terms frankly they will be lucky to get 2 terms for the simple reason they are going to be centrist and it is not going to fix any of our problems because centrism is what landed us here. I suspect the next governement after starmers will be either harder right or harder left because centrism will be seen to be a dead end
Evidence point in the opposite direction. The public repeatedly vote centrist. The chaos now is as a result of the public being offered two very eccentric choices in 2019, either one would have resulted in something unstable. Yet they didn't abandon those two choices en masse. The rule is: who can win and looks less mad?
The fact is, Labour have turned a stonking defeat into something that may well be an even stonkinger victory by... tacking to the centre.
Yours and Leon's contention that we are on the brink of some dramatic realignment away from the centre is like cold fusion: forever five years in the future. You're wishcasting. You assume that because YOU want it, and because OBVIOUSLY you're right, eventually the world will come around to your point of view. They won't.
We are at the end of an era. When historians come to write proper accounts of the 2010-2024 period, who amount the governing party(s) will be remembered?
Here’s my list, to qualify you need to have had a significant role and or had an important impact on the period.
In rough chronological order:
David Cameron George Osborne Michael Gove William Hague Nick Clegg Theresa May Boris Johnson Dominic Cummings David Davis Philip Hammond Rishi Sunak Liz Truss Matt Hancock Jeremy Hunt
Honourable mentions: Vince Cable, Andrew Lansley, Danny Alexander, Steve Baker, Chris Grayling, Ruth Davison, Amber Rudd, Priti Patel, Ben Wallace, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Suella Braverman, Kwasi Kwarteng.
Daniel Hannan. The theoreticians always get overlooked but they put forward the ideas on which people hang their actions.
We are at the end of an era. When historians come to write proper accounts of the 2010-2024 period, who amount the governing party(s) will be remembered?
Here’s my list, to qualify you need to have had a significant role and or had an important impact on the period.
In rough chronological order:
David Cameron George Osborne Michael Gove William Hague Nick Clegg Theresa May Boris Johnson Dominic Cummings David Davis Philip Hammond Rishi Sunak Liz Truss Matt Hancock Jeremy Hunt
Honourable mentions: Vince Cable, Andrew Lansley, Danny Alexander, Steve Baker, Chris Grayling, Ruth Davison, Amber Rudd, Priti Patel, Ben Wallace, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Suella Braverman, Kwasi Kwarteng.
Um. Nigel Farage? Leader of the Ukip and Brexit parties?
The scenario outlined in that Bloomberg article seems quite plausible. If the Tories are left with 100-150 seats and Farage gets elected but Reform fail to break through in terms of seats, there will be a lot of pressure to let him join the party and run for the leadership.
It might lead to a load of Never-Farage Tories leaving the party, but would mean we'd be left with a consolidated right-wing movement.
No we would not as the very significant chunk of right wingers, like myself, @Big_G_NorthWales and many, many, many more on here alone who despise Farage would be left outside the party of the right.
You're more of a liberal internationalist, so maybe you would be more at home in a party of like-minded people.
I'm more of a liberal nationalist than a liberal internationalist.
And having disparate parties of "like minded people" is not united big tent parties like you claimed.
Liberal nationalism is pretty much Farage's philosophical position, so why do you despise him?
How the hell is Farage liberal !?
What makes you think otherwise? He's a fiscal conservative who opposes the nanny state and has libertarian instincts.
Is it purely the opposition to mass immigration that you object to?
Net migration of zero is not an opposition to "mass" immigration.
He's a racist xenophobe, not just anti-migration.
And he's illiberal. He opposed equal marriage, how is that libertarian? His policies in this election include illiberally banning schools from teaching "gender ideology" or "critical race theory" - how is that liberal, to ban schools and universities from teaching things?
He's not remotely liberal. And more importantly he's a nasty, racist, xenophobic shit.
Perfectly put
Nigel Farage is an absolute hero. A decent funny pint drinking English gent. Liberal and authentic, funny and charismatic. And smarter than all of the other leaders put together. There is a reason he is the most popular politician in the country
We are at the end of an era. When historians come to write proper accounts of the 2010-2024 period, who amount the governing party(s) will be remembered?
Here’s my list, to qualify you need to have had a significant role and or had an important impact on the period.
In rough chronological order:
David Cameron George Osborne Michael Gove William Hague Nick Clegg Theresa May Boris Johnson Dominic Cummings David Davis Philip Hammond Rishi Sunak Liz Truss Matt Hancock Jeremy Hunt
Honourable mentions: Vince Cable, Andrew Lansley, Danny Alexander, Steve Baker, Chris Grayling, Ruth Davison, Amber Rudd, Priti Patel, Ben Wallace, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Suella Braverman, Kwasi Kwarteng.
Um. Nigel Farage? Leader of the Ukip and Brexit parties?
*governing parties*
Otherwise I’d add:
Ed Miliband, Jeremy Corbyn, Keir Starmer, Nigel Farage, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Mark Drakeford, Arlene Foster, Angela Rayner
OT. Interesting Any Questions today. Biggest cheer of the day for the SNP MP who wanted to cancel Brexit and rejoin. Every time the word was mentioned there was a huge cheer. (From a Tory constituency as well). Somebody or other is throwing away a potential USP that comes with great big flashing lights
FFS. You can’t “cancel” Brexit anymore than I can cancel my 50th birthday. I’d like to do both but sadly both have happened. Britain has Exited the EU. That’s Brexit. People (myself included) might want to rejoin but people (myself included) don’t want to rip the country apart again through another Referendum. If you lived in this country you’d realise how strong this feeling is. Most 2016 Remainers don’t want to gone through the pain of reopening the wounds, however much we regret the 2016 outcome. Another referendum would just recreate the recent chaos.
Just take French citizenship Roger. It’s because of people like you we lost. The best we can hope for for a generation is closer relations and possibly Single Market. We won’t rejoin until the pain of the last Referendum is long gone and, likely, both you and I are too.
Once in power I would like to see Starmer start planning and low level negotiating for us to join EFTA. He doesn't have to 'betray' anybody by actually making formal approaches or even think about making any real moves in his first term. But he could do the hard work, and lay the ground ready to present the electorate with a serious, well planned option at the next election.
It is what we should have done after the referendum but Cameron ran away and his successors were all trying to prove how 'pure' they were.
Comments
2. He isn't very funny
3. He's certainly not a gent
4. He isn't Liberal
5. He isn't authentic
6. He isn't funny
7. He isn't smart let alone smarter than the other leaders put together. I mean, YOU may hate Sunak and Starmer but they're 100x smarter than Farage and, by the sounds of it, you.
8. He isn't the most popular poitician in the country
9. You came out with all this sort of crap over Liz Truss
https://www.reformparty.uk/justice-policy
Critical reforms needed in the first 100 days:
Urgent Sentencing Review with Automatic Life Imprisonment for Violent Repeat Offenders.
Those committing second violent or serious offences will receive mandatory life sentences.
Increase the Criminal Justice Budget.
The budget is almost the same as it was 10 years ago. Increase it from £10 billion to £12 billion to ensure more high calibre staff to cut delays.
Change the Definition of Hate Crime.
The CPS and police definition of a hate crime has led to systemic bias. Members of the British public must not be investigated because ‘any’ person ‘perceives’ that a hate crime has been committed. Proper evidence must be required. Enforce existing laws to stop violent, hate demonstrations such as the Free-Palestine marches.
Commence building of 10,000 New Detention Places.
Start expansion in capacity of state built and managed prisons so that life means life for those who endanger the public. Commission disused military bases if needed.
Tackle Organised Crime.
Foreign gang crime accounts for most organised crime in the UK at a cost of £37 billion per year. This includes drugs, people trafficking and money laundering through barber shops, car washes and nail bars. Increase budget for both the National Crime Agency and The National Drugs Intelligence Unit.
Thereafter
Justice tick
Reform the Child Maintenance Service.
The CMS is failing children and parents. It should be a Mediation Service and means-tested child support for parents who cannot arrange finances. Launch a special division of the family court for maintenance and defaults. Share parental care 50/50 where appropriate. Rights of access for Grandparents.
Stop Child Grooming Gangs.
Systematic child sexual abuse continues unchecked. Child Protection Services needs a dedicated National Agency working with local charities, councils and health services. Upgraded intelligence can identify high-risk children and filter malicious claims.
Tackle Youth Crime.
Reopen High Intensity Training Camps for young offenders to teach basic education, teamwork and values. Military veterans can provide role models. This model worked at Thorn Cross in the 1990s. It is needed more than ever.
When historians come to write proper accounts of the 2010-2024 period, who amount the governing party(s) will be remembered?
Here’s my list, to qualify you need to have had a significant role and or had an important impact on the period.
In rough chronological order:
David Cameron
George Osborne
Michael Gove
William Hague
Nick Clegg
Theresa May
Boris Johnson
Dominic Cummings
David Davis
Philip Hammond
Rishi Sunak
Liz Truss
Matt Hancock
Jeremy Hunt
Honourable mentions: Vince Cable, Andrew Lansley, Danny Alexander, Steve Baker, Chris Grayling, Ruth Davison, Amber Rudd, Priti Patel, Ben Wallace, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Suella Braverman, Kwasi Kwarteng.
Since all other of the King's ministers remain in place and they are Conservative ministers until the election changes things it follows the PM would also need to be a Conservative.
Does the 4 way weirdness Lab/Lib/REF/Con poll mean the exit poll might be much less accurate than normal?
If so, could present post-exit poll trading opportunities on election night b
Yet they didn't abandon those two choices en masse. The rule is: who can win and looks less mad?
The fact is, Labour have turned a stonking defeat into something that may well be an even stonkinger victory by... tacking to the centre.
Yours and Leon's contention that we are on the brink of some dramatic realignment away from the centre is like cold fusion: forever five years in the future. You're wishcasting. You assume that because YOU want it, and because OBVIOUSLY you're right, eventually the world will come around to your point of view. They won't.
Leon are you feeling alright?
Otherwise I’d add:
Ed Miliband, Jeremy Corbyn, Keir Starmer, Nigel Farage, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Mark Drakeford, Arlene Foster, Angela Rayner
It is what we should have done after the referendum but Cameron ran away and his successors were all trying to prove how 'pure' they were.