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Could the Tory Jim Crow laws hand the election to Susan Hall? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,344
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/latest-polls

    Re Trump, look at the Emerson polls from 30th April. Emerson is one of the best-rated companies, and this is not good news.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    One thing about voting today. Pens not pencils were provided, which together with the instruction to fold each ballot paper *might* mean a transfer of wet ink from one candidate to another, and thus a spoiled vote.

    Leave the poor officials and their pens alone, they are just trying to do the write thing.
    They gave me a pencil and I then forgot to fold my ballot ! I then had a tirade about the voter ID rule which got unanimous agreement from the poll workers .
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Rwanda is working...

    @SimonJonesNews

    711 migrants were detected crossing the English Channel on Wednesday, the highest number on a single day so far this year.

    That's a huge number. How on earth does that volume evade the French authorities?

    They all leave at exactly the same time to overwhelm the response of les flics. That response being probably half-hearted at best.


    Has a Tory cabinet minister been spotted wearing that yet?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,602
    A MAGA rally and a pro-Palestinian rally unite to chant “f*** Joe Biden”.

    https://x.com/mavennavarro1/status/1785785576571994299
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    …although…

    Nobody asked me for ID. They just accepted my polling card…
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Andy_JS said:

    The ID rule is FUCKING MORONIC.

    I almost forgot this morning and I’m politically aware and highly motivated.

    It is shameful.

    Agree. Abolish it.
    Looks like my local polling clerk has taken it upon himself to do so. Didn’t ask for my driving licence. I was able to vote without it.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    …although…

    Nobody asked me for ID. They just accepted my polling card…

    Stop the steal!!
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    OMG must we be subjected to almost continuous coverage of the US student protests across the news . Enough already !
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,545
    nico679 said:

    OMG must we be subjected to almost continuous coverage of the US student protests across the news . Enough already !

    I switch off immediately. Just boring.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,874
    Went to vote at 9.30am (three times!).

    It was, of course, brisk.......

    (It wasn't. It was pretty quiet)

    Lib Dem all the way down the line.

    I'll stick my neck out now however, and suggest you throw your life's savings on Labour winning in Liverpool.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Rwanda is working...

    @SimonJonesNews

    711 migrants were detected crossing the English Channel on Wednesday, the highest number on a single day so far this year.

    That's a huge number. How on earth does that volume evade the French authorities?

    They all leave at exactly the same time to overwhelm the response of les flics. That response being probably half-hearted at best.


    Has a Tory cabinet minister been spotted wearing that yet?
    The smart money would be on Shappsie or "Clever"ly.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    OMG must we be subjected to almost continuous coverage of the US student protests across the news . Enough already !

    I switch off immediately. Just boring.
    The UKs media obsession with US news really gets on my wick.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,174
    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    OMG must we be subjected to almost continuous coverage of the US student protests across the news . Enough already !

    I switch off immediately. Just boring.
    The UKs media obsession with US news really gets on my wick.
    Ultimately it doesn't matter much, what's far worse is the BoE's obsession with US economic data. You know it's there in the ether !
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    OMG must we be subjected to almost continuous coverage of the US student protests across the news . Enough already !

    I switch off immediately. Just boring.
    The UKs media obsession with US news really gets on my wick.
    It's just possible we might have a bit more USA coverage this year!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,545
    Surprised Tom Hunt MP doesn't have a passport.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    OMG must we be subjected to almost continuous coverage of the US student protests across the news . Enough already !

    I switch off immediately. Just boring.
    The UKs media obsession with US news really gets on my wick.
    It's just possible we might have a bit more USA coverage this year!
    Yes in terms of elections it’s a bit more understandable but the last few days has been ridiculous.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    TimS said:



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    John Major thinks that the better the economy is doing by the time of the general election, the better Labour will perform. Now, this is probably a distorted view on his part as he takes as his evidence that he won in 1992 when the economy was crap and lost heavily in 1997 when "Britain was booming", but the basis for him saying this is that people will more willingly vote for change, especially for a party perceived as spending more on nice things, if they feel the economy is not in danger. Otherwise they cling to the devil they know.
    The economy was relatively uncrap in spring 1992. Lawson had torched the housing market in 1988 which led to a recession with a slow recovery, but this was over by 1992. It was a few months after the 92 election when the ERM crisis hit.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,417
    edited May 2
    Andy_JS said:

    Surprised Tom Hunt MP doesn't have a passport.

    Or a driving licence.

    Actually if Labour do win well enough for a five year term in 2025 (yes, I know) one thing they could do well to look at is the rules around elections.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773
    edited May 2
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    Someone mentioned Heptonstall - yes, agree with Heptonstall.
    Also, after a bit of a think:

    The Strid, Wharfedale (looking this up, apparently, on MayDay morning, the river goddess appears here in the form of a white horse, and is a sign that a drowning will soon follow). You can walk there from Bolton Abbey, which also has a bit of noom about it.
    Robin Hood's Bay, perhaps?
    Much of the limestone country in the west of the county tends to noominess - particularly the caves. And perhaps Janet's Foss and some of the other waterfalls close to Malham.
    Ilkley moor feels noomy to me.

    And having a quick browse through my new book, I would also offer:
    White Mare Crag and Roulston Scar, Sutton under Whitestonecliffe (all sorts of mythical stuff)
    Rudston monolith (the tallest standing stone in the country. It's in a graveyard, which it reputedly predates by centuries. That's got to be noomy).
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812
    nico679 said:

    OMG must we be subjected to almost continuous coverage of the US student protests across the news . Enough already !

    Just what GBeebies, surely they will be fully focused on GB matters?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    edited May 2
    Seems to me one of the most important numbers is the proportion of Conservative 2019 voters now saying they will vote Labour. So that's what I looked at.
    I only took the value from the first (YouGov) poll each month. Might be worth looking at every poll at some point, as that will give a better idea as to whether what looks like a recent deterioration is a real signal. Could also look at the Opinium data.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Salt cod with prunes seemed like an interesting idea when the chef recommended it
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,174

    Seems to me one of the most important numbers is the proportion of Conservative 2019 voters now saying they will vote Labour. So that's what I looked at.
    I only took the value from the first poll each month. Might be worth looking at every poll at some point, as that will give a better idea as to whether what looks like a recent deterioration is a real signal.

    I voted both Labour and Conservative today.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    nico679 said:

    OMG must we be subjected to almost continuous coverage of the US student protests across the news . Enough already !

    Just what GBeebies, surely they will be fully focused on GB matters?
    I’d rather watch Oppenheimer again ! Jeez what a pile of self indulgent overlong crap.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,344
    eristdoof said:

    TimS said:



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    John Major thinks that the better the economy is doing by the time of the general election, the better Labour will perform. Now, this is probably a distorted view on his part as he takes as his evidence that he won in 1992 when the economy was crap and lost heavily in 1997 when "Britain was booming", but the basis for him saying this is that people will more willingly vote for change, especially for a party perceived as spending more on nice things, if they feel the economy is not in danger. Otherwise they cling to the devil they know.
    The economy was relatively uncrap in spring 1992. Lawson had torched the housing market in 1988 which led to a recession with a slow recovery, but this was over by 1992. It was a few months after the 92 election when the ERM crisis hit.
    The economy in Spring 1992 was in quite good shape. But, no one knew it at the time, because economic growth was (as so often) underestimated. What screwed the Conservatives was the ERM debacle in September of that year.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Pulpstar said:

    Seems to me one of the most important numbers is the proportion of Conservative 2019 voters now saying they will vote Labour. So that's what I looked at.
    I only took the value from the first poll each month. Might be worth looking at every poll at some point, as that will give a better idea as to whether what looks like a recent deterioration is a real signal.

    I voted both Labour and Conservative today.
    People fought and suffered to give you the right to do that. I hope you feel you have done them justice.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited May 2
    .
    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney does the necessary compromise with the Greens and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    eristdoof said:

    TimS said:



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    John Major thinks that the better the economy is doing by the time of the general election, the better Labour will perform. Now, this is probably a distorted view on his part as he takes as his evidence that he won in 1992 when the economy was crap and lost heavily in 1997 when "Britain was booming", but the basis for him saying this is that people will more willingly vote for change, especially for a party perceived as spending more on nice things, if they feel the economy is not in danger. Otherwise they cling to the devil they know.
    The economy was relatively uncrap in spring 1992. Lawson had torched the housing market in 1988 which led to a recession with a slow recovery, but this was over by 1992. It was a few months after the 92 election when the ERM crisis hit.
    Yes but, rather like now, we were talking tentative green shoots not Britain is booming. The economy was growing rapidly in 1997.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    Just voted LD for the two London assembly votes, but Khan for the mayoral. Sorry Rob, can't risk Hall sneaking it.

    I hope you’re a sign of things to come.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    Most of the old Yorkshire monastic houses, pillaged by the Tudors, and abandoned for centuries, have a noomish sense about them. Even the touristed ones, if visited when it's quiet.

    I last visited Fountains Abbey in a late December; virtually deserted, it took me back to childhood visits when it was barely touristed even in high summer.
    Rievaulx is also superb.

    One of my greater regrets is not mortgaging everything I had at the time and buying the old vicarage overlooking Easby Abbey, back in the 80s when such things were possible.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    FF43 said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney deals with the Greens compromise and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
    At the risk of having my wrist slapped for being a non-SNPer offering advice on SNP matters, it does seem like Swinney is the best bet and might help claw back a bit of support. He benefits from the fact that leaders who were unimpressive first time round but keep their noses clean can still be relatively popular in their older age.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,174
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Seems to me one of the most important numbers is the proportion of Conservative 2019 voters now saying they will vote Labour. So that's what I looked at.
    I only took the value from the first poll each month. Might be worth looking at every poll at some point, as that will give a better idea as to whether what looks like a recent deterioration is a real signal.

    I voted both Labour and Conservative today.
    People fought and suffered to give you the right to do that. I hope you feel you have done them justice.
    Well Caroline Henry's not getting back in on my watch.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    nico679 said:

    OMG must we be subjected to almost continuous coverage of the US student protests across the news . Enough already !

    Not sure.Something soixante-huitard about these protests. Could be epochal.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    nico679 said:

    Just voted LD for the two London assembly votes, but Khan for the mayoral. Sorry Rob, can't risk Hall sneaking it.

    I hope you’re a sign of things to come.
    He's a sign of the rank iniquities of FPTP. One of two blatantly partisan bits of democratic manipulation practiced by the Conservatives for these elections.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,238
    Jesus effing Christ Paris is cold and grey. STILL. 12C with a sharp breeze and people looking irritable in winter coats and scarves. What a dump. I agree with this Spectator article

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/paris-city-of-blight/
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,457
    eristdoof said:

    TimS said:



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    John Major thinks that the better the economy is doing by the time of the general election, the better Labour will perform. Now, this is probably a distorted view on his part as he takes as his evidence that he won in 1992 when the economy was crap and lost heavily in 1997 when "Britain was booming", but the basis for him saying this is that people will more willingly vote for change, especially for a party perceived as spending more on nice things, if they feel the economy is not in danger. Otherwise they cling to the devil they know.
    The economy was relatively uncrap in spring 1992. Lawson had torched the housing market in 1988 which led to a recession with a slow recovery, but this was over by 1992. It was a few months after the 92 election when the ERM crisis hit.
    My impression is that whatever the technical indicators might have said, there was a widespread view that things were still very difficult in early 1992.

    Norman Lamont was mocked for repeated sightings of "green shoots" in 1991, but arrears & repossessions continued to rise, which will have driven a lot of media coverage and will have left middle-class homeowners feeling rather unsettled.

    (I was a toddler at the time, so I'm taking this from reading about the era rather than having been politically active during it!)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    nico679 said:

    Just voted LD for the two London assembly votes, but Khan for the mayoral. Sorry Rob, can't risk Hall sneaking it.

    I hope you’re a sign of things to come.
    People panicked into not voting for their best choice when the Tories will lose by miles anyway?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    Yes, Selby Abbey would be much more celebrated if it wasn't for York Minster just up the road.
    The organ there is pretty good, I think.. has @ydoethur experienced it ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,986
    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney deals with the Greens compromise and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
    At the risk of having my wrist slapped for being a non-SNPer offering advice on SNP matters, it does seem like Swinney is the best bet and might help claw back a bit of support. He benefits from the fact that leaders who were unimpressive first time round but keep their noses clean can still be relatively popular in their older age.
    Out with the old, and in with the OLD
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    There was 100% turnout at our polling station...


    ...when we both filled in our postal votes at the kitchen table last week.

    Two votes for the Queen of the North, two votes to reelect our Labour councillor.

    Considering that one of us is a (pissed off) Green Party member, that isn't a bad result in my book.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,988
    FF43 said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney does the necessary compromise with the Greens and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
    Knowing Scotland, this deal was probably done over a coffee and bacon roll from Greggs rather than a meal in Granita...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    OMG must we be subjected to almost continuous coverage of the US student protests across the news . Enough already !

    I switch off immediately. Just boring.
    Good thing there's no wars in Gaza, Sudan and Ukraine to take attention away from the students.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,062
    USA is reclassifying marijuana. As PB is full of decadents who use drugs freely without regard for law I assume this will be of interest to some of you.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68932612
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    sarissa said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney does the necessary compromise with the Greens and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
    Knowing Scotland, this deal was probably done over a coffee and bacon roll from Greggs rather than a meal in Granita...
    No way Kates a Greggs Gal
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,062
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Seems to me one of the most important numbers is the proportion of Conservative 2019 voters now saying they will vote Labour. So that's what I looked at.
    I only took the value from the first poll each month. Might be worth looking at every poll at some point, as that will give a better idea as to whether what looks like a recent deterioration is a real signal.

    I voted both Labour and Conservative today.
    People fought and suffered to give you the right to do that. I hope you feel you have done them justice.
    Well Caroline Henry's not getting back in on my watch.
    It would have to be a big watch. Probably too big for your wrist, tbh. 😀
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,988
    Scott_xP said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney deals with the Greens compromise and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
    At the risk of having my wrist slapped for being a non-SNPer offering advice on SNP matters, it does seem like Swinney is the best bet and might help claw back a bit of support. He benefits from the fact that leaders who were unimpressive first time round but keep their noses clean can still be relatively popular in their older age.
    Out with the old, and in with the OLD
    Starmer born 2 September 1962.

    Swinney born 13 April 1964.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,212

    Just been to vote.
    Huge queues at the polling station.
    Well, me and my dog.
    And they wouldn't accept the dog's pet passport as proof of his ID. No photo.

    -1 for no dog for scale
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    Someone mentioned Heptonstall - yes, agree with Heptonstall.
    Also, after a bit of a think:

    The Strid, Wharfedale (looking this up, apparently, on MayDay morning, the river goddess appears here in the form of a white horse, and is a sign that a drowning will soon follow). You can walk there from Bolton Abbey, which also has a bit of noom about it.
    Robin Hood's Bay, perhaps?
    Much of the limestone country in the west of the county tends to noominess - particularly the caves. And perhaps Janet's Foss and some of the other waterfalls close to Malham.
    Ilkley moor feels noomy to me.

    And having a quick browse through my new book, I would also offer:
    White Mare Crag and Roulston Scar, Sutton under Whitestonecliffe (all sorts of mythical stuff)
    Rudston monolith (the tallest standing stone in the country. It's in a graveyard, which it reputedly predates by centuries. That's got to be noomy).
    The millstone grit of Brimham Rocks.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    Most of the old Yorkshire monastic houses, pillaged by the Tudors, and abandoned for centuries, have a noomish sense about them. Even the touristed ones, if visited when it's quiet.

    I last visited Fountains Abbey in a late December; virtually deserted, it took me back to childhood visits when it was barely touristed even in high summer.
    Rievaulx is also superb.

    One of my greater regrets is not mortgaging everything I had at the time and buying the old vicarage overlooking Easby Abbey, back in the 80s when such things were possible.
    Not by any chance bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    There comes a point where life isn't enhanced by eating more prunes
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,212
    kjh said:

    The ID rule is FUCKING MORONIC.

    I almost forgot this morning and I’m politically aware and highly motivated.

    It is shameful.

    That is because you don't own a wallet full of id :wink:
    You’ll be happy to know that an option being considered in a fair number of countries is making the national ID card virtual - a phone app.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,986
    IanB2 said:

    There comes a point where life isn't enhanced by eating more prunes

    Is that at birth?
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,457

    Just voted LD for the two London assembly votes, but Khan for the mayoral. Sorry Rob, can't risk Hall sneaking it.

    Same here. First time I've ever voted Labour, but the change to the electoral system means it would have been crazy to do otherwise.

    The change to FPTP must, I assume, have been intended to help the Tories. Hard to see it ever working out for them, at least in London.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,886
    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney deals with the Greens compromise and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
    At the risk of having my wrist slapped for being a non-SNPer offering advice on SNP matters, it does seem like Swinney is the best bet and might help claw back a bit of support. He benefits from the fact that leaders who were unimpressive first time round but keep their noses clean can still be relatively popular in their older age.
    Swinney as leader and Forbes as Deputy or Finance would though be a clear swing to the right by the SNP.

    Both relatively fiscally conservative and Forbes a social conservative too
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,863
    Voter Suppression and Election Turnouts | Is Left-Leaning Media Too 'Worthy'?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh_AYgdbzcw

    Rory & Alastair answer questions.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Just been to vote.
    Huge queues at the polling station.
    Well, me and my dog.
    And they wouldn't accept the dog's pet passport as proof of his ID. No photo.

    There's a space for you to add the photo
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,062
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney deals with the Greens compromise and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
    At the risk of having my wrist slapped for being a non-SNPer offering advice on SNP matters, it does seem like Swinney is the best bet and might help claw back a bit of support. He benefits from the fact that leaders who were unimpressive first time round but keep their noses clean can still be relatively popular in their older age.
    Swinney as leader and Forbes as Deputy or Finance would though be a clear swing to the right by the SNP.

    Both relatively fiscally conservative and Forbes a social conservative too
    Banter heuristic demands she gets Equalities... 😀
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,986
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney deals with the Greens compromise and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
    At the risk of having my wrist slapped for being a non-SNPer offering advice on SNP matters, it does seem like Swinney is the best bet and might help claw back a bit of support. He benefits from the fact that leaders who were unimpressive first time round but keep their noses clean can still be relatively popular in their older age.
    Swinney as leader and Forbes as Deputy or Finance would though be a clear swing to the right by the SNP.

    Both relatively fiscally conservative and Forbes a social conservative too
    Banter heuristic demands she gets Equalities... 😀
    And all the non-jobs the Greens had
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    Most of the old Yorkshire monastic houses, pillaged by the Tudors, and abandoned for centuries, have a noomish sense about them. Even the touristed ones, if visited when it's quiet.

    I last visited Fountains Abbey in a late December; virtually deserted, it took me back to childhood visits when it was barely touristed even in high summer.
    Rievaulx is also superb.

    One of my greater regrets is not mortgaging everything I had at the time and buying the old vicarage overlooking Easby Abbey, back in the 80s when such things were possible.
    Not by any chance bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang?
    Did Shakespeare even visit Yorkshire ?

    The Kings Men made it to Doncaster, but that was a few years after his death.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,062
    IanB2 said:

    There comes a point where life isn't enhanced by eating more prunes

    Just say no, sir. Just say no... 😀
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812
    viewcode said:

    USA is reclassifying marijuana. As PB is full of decadents who use drugs freely without regard for law I assume this will be of interest to some of you.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68932612

    Still the crazy world where they allow firms to sell it, but not banks to accept the money, so huge piles of cash have to be secured and transported in a country where guns are easier to come by than bank accounts.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576
    TimS said:



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    John Major thinks that the better the economy is doing by the time of the general election, the better Labour will perform. Now, this is probably a distorted view on his part as he takes as his evidence that he won in 1992 when the economy was crap and lost heavily in 1997 when "Britain was booming", but the basis for him saying this is that people will more willingly vote for change, especially for a party perceived as spending more on nice things, if they feel the economy is not in danger. Otherwise they cling to the devil they know.
    The problem is that, while “the economy” might be doing well in the abstract, most people only see their mortgages go up and the rest of their money spent on food and energy. Very few are feeling better off now than they were in 2019.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    Leon said:

    Jesus effing Christ Paris is cold and grey. STILL. 12C with a sharp breeze and people looking irritable in winter coats and scarves. What a dump. I agree with this Spectator article

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/paris-city-of-blight/

    Judging by the wee portrait sketch the author has been somewhat ravaged by his Paris experience.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,782
    IanB2 said:

    Salt cod with prunes seemed like an interesting idea when the chef recommended it

    Suspect he had a surplus of cod and prunes.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,062

    viewcode said:

    USA is reclassifying marijuana. As PB is full of decadents who use drugs freely without regard for law I assume this will be of interest to some of you.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68932612

    Still the crazy world where they allow firms to sell it, but not banks to accept the money, so huge piles of cash have to be secured and transported in a country where guns are easier to come by than bank accounts.
    "Tulsa King" was quite educational on this point.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    AlsoLei said:

    eristdoof said:

    TimS said:



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    John Major thinks that the better the economy is doing by the time of the general election, the better Labour will perform. Now, this is probably a distorted view on his part as he takes as his evidence that he won in 1992 when the economy was crap and lost heavily in 1997 when "Britain was booming", but the basis for him saying this is that people will more willingly vote for change, especially for a party perceived as spending more on nice things, if they feel the economy is not in danger. Otherwise they cling to the devil they know.
    The economy was relatively uncrap in spring 1992. Lawson had torched the housing market in 1988 which led to a recession with a slow recovery, but this was over by 1992. It was a few months after the 92 election when the ERM crisis hit.
    My impression is that whatever the technical indicators might have said, there was a widespread view that things were still very difficult in early 1992.

    Norman Lamont was mocked for repeated sightings of "green shoots" in 1991, but arrears & repossessions continued to rise, which will have driven a lot of media coverage and will have left middle-class homeowners feeling rather unsettled.

    (I was a toddler at the time, so I'm taking this from reading about the era rather than having been politically active during it!)
    In South England the negative equity for those who bought houses in 86-88 hit really hard. By 1992 most of the house values hat caught back up with the prices the owners had paid. But the housing market was still very sluggish. I was a student 86 to 90 so I wasn't looking to buy at the danger time but I knew many people a bit older than me who had recently bought their first houses, had been hit by higher interest rates and were unable to move due to negative equity. It meant that many people around my age waited much longer to buy their first house.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    John Major thinks that the better the economy is doing by the time of the general election, the better Labour will perform. Now, this is probably a distorted view on his part as he takes as his evidence that he won in 1992 when the economy was crap and lost heavily in 1997 when "Britain was booming", but the basis for him saying this is that people will more willingly vote for change, especially for a party perceived as spending more on nice things, if they feel the economy is not in danger. Otherwise they cling to the devil they know.
    The problem is that, while “the economy” might be doing well in the abstract, most people only see their mortgages go up and the rest of their money spent on food and energy. Very few are feeling better off now than they were in 2019.
    Which is why I think the 1992 comparison is probably closest. Economy on the mend and inflation down, but interest rates relatively high and households feeling the pinch.

    Unlike Major I don’t think that means a Tory victory because people will play safe (he actually thinks that).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    Ukraine's SBU cybersecurity chief Ilia Vitiuk has been fired following a scandal with a "weaponized draft" notice for journalist digging into dodgy real estate of his family

    Following the media outcry, Vitiuk was suspended & reassigned to the frontline

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1785980073176092719
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,077
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    I think my vote would go to the Emley Moor Transmission mast. You can see it for miles.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,212
    edited May 2
    viewcode said:

    USA is reclassifying marijuana. As PB is full of decadents who use drugs freely without regard for law I assume this will be of interest to some of you.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68932612

    Classifying MJ with smack was insane. And led to ridiculous prison sentences for people with small amounts.

    What we need is a structured legalisation approach - a controlled, legal supply chain. And actual science on the effects of various strengths.

    The Netherlands ended deaths from E with testing, for example.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    Leon said:

    Jesus effing Christ Paris is cold and grey. STILL. 12C with a sharp breeze and people looking irritable in winter coats and scarves. What a dump. I agree with this Spectator article

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/paris-city-of-blight/

    Not the best of his tbh.

    Apart from the horrified airport in Vegas, and the fact that taxis at GdN have always been plentiful, and Ubers available for years and years meeting point top of Bd de Denain, apart from that, the writer (who he btw) has completely misjudged the city.

    I can tell you now that I was in Paris around the very time he was there and he has simply created a Paris for his readership that doesn't exist. Entertaining as the article may be.

    Plus the profile pic is weird and makes the author look like a cross between Michael Gove and Jeremy Hunt. Which might have been the aim tbf.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,545

    Just voted LD for the two London assembly votes, but Khan for the mayoral. Sorry Rob, can't risk Hall sneaking it.

    Are you worried that she might sneak it?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,238
    edited May 2
    Further thoughts on Paris. It really depends where you go. The left bank is generally much better. The 6th and 7th look fine. Even around Gare Montparnasse it looks civilised

    It’s as soon as you cross the Seine and it’s anywhere in and around the 1st and 2nd, and of course, the Gare du Nord

    I’m about 300m from the Opera and I just saw a guy lying flat out on the bare sidewalk, face down, apparently comatose. Fentanyl or Tranq I presume

    You just didn’t see shit like that 20 years ago. Maybe even 5 years ago

    It’s particularly noticeable in Paris BECAUSE it was once so pristine - and always beautiful. Now she’s like a model that got beaten up and lost three teeth and potentially an eye
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639
    edited May 2
    Just voted. LD locally. The Lib Dems in the Knottingley ward are a small blob of insurgent yellow in what is pretty much a sea of red over Wakefield. I know the candidate vaguely, she and her two LD fellow ward cllrs do good, high profile work in the town. They all live here. I wanted to vote Labour but couldn’t do it - poor candidate, doesn’t live here. The local party seems to be on its knees. Until the Lib Dem insurgency a few years ago it was unbroken Labour cllrs for aeons. As the old boys retired no-one credible has come forward to stand for the reds.

    Tracy Brabin, Labour, for mayor.

    Quiet polling station. One elderly couple strolling in as I left, no-one else.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    AlsoLei said:

    Just voted LD for the two London assembly votes, but Khan for the mayoral. Sorry Rob, can't risk Hall sneaking it.

    Same here. First time I've ever voted Labour, but the change to the electoral system means it would have been crazy to do otherwise.

    The change to FPTP must, I assume, have been intended to help the Tories. Hard to see it ever working out for them, at least in London.
    I’m heartened to see this. Can I ask did you receive a lot of campaign literature stressing the voting change from Labour ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,886
    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    John Major thinks that the better the economy is doing by the time of the general election, the better Labour will perform. Now, this is probably a distorted view on his part as he takes as his evidence that he won in 1992 when the economy was crap and lost heavily in 1997 when "Britain was booming", but the basis for him saying this is that people will more willingly vote for change, especially for a party perceived as spending more on nice things, if they feel the economy is not in danger. Otherwise they cling to the devil they know.
    The problem is that, while “the economy” might be doing well in the abstract, most people only see their mortgages go up and the rest of their money spent on food and energy. Very few are feeling better off now than they were in 2019.
    Which is why I think the 1992 comparison is probably closest. Economy on the mend and inflation down, but interest rates relatively high and households feeling the pinch.

    Unlike Major I don’t think that means a Tory victory because people will play safe (he actually thinks that).
    Starmer is also no Kinnock
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,212

    viewcode said:

    USA is reclassifying marijuana. As PB is full of decadents who use drugs freely without regard for law I assume this will be of interest to some of you.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68932612

    Still the crazy world where they allow firms to sell it, but not banks to accept the money, so huge piles of cash have to be secured and transported in a country where guns are easier to come by than bank accounts.
    Feds vs States

    Better yet, it creates the situation where finance for a legal weed selling business can’t use banks.

    All the people I can think of with gym bags of money are wonderful people.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    Susan Hall has just asked me what I am doing for lunch which is bloody cheeky because I am having a salad as per usual.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Heavy thunderstorms could give way to the warmest day of the year so far in Britain.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,493



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    Don’t mind debating you on this and your “Hopia” rubbish. You seem deluded about what polls are telling you, how politics works, and what’s about to happen.

    What am I forecasting that you disagree with? General Election result on 4th July 2024 is 39% Labour 33% Conservative, or similar combination with Con just 5 or 6 behind. And you can’t see how on earth we quickly go from here to there? Is this the question I must answer?

    The polling what matters to whole electorate, showing Labour ahead on all measures, bin it. For recovery to 34% Tories will focus on what matters to voters still leaning to them - it doesn’t matter a jot for every extra badger shot, 68% want Tories out even more, if Cons move from 24% to 32% and beyond targetting swingback. Tories have shipped about 10% to Reform in only 18 months, these are clearly softish votes. What do these recent reform voters, and those 2019 Tory Don’t Knows often in Mikes and TSE headers, need to hear during a campaign to be tempted back?

    Remember how polls moved in 2017 and 2019 in the campaign. Every GE becomes a “forced choice” because support for minor parties like Reforms manifesto of unicorns, comes under pressure. One candidate wins FPTP in large constituency’s, this usually reduces voter option to 2 candidates who can win the seat. Conservative or Starmer, or waste your vote nearly everywhere - love it or hate it, you can’t deny FPTP does do this. And Voters know how painful letting in a horrible government and PM they get stuck with for 5 years, most will use their vote wisely not chuck it away. When I see this smorgasbord polling “choose your preferred unicorn” I shout at the screen: that mountain of deliberately wasted votes just won’t happen! It never does in a UK GE, so why now?

    Only “Forced choice” polling from now gives us more realistic GE prediction. The last forced choice poll I noted was by Delta earlier in March, Lab just 11 points ahead 42% to 31%. Tories already polling in 30’s now before start of campaigning, before two party emphasis and squeezing others gets serious. I want to see forced choice poll from every pollster, don’t you? If forced choice polls taken exactly same time as normal one is completely different, and all have Tories in the 30+%, you will instantly see I am right, too much full options polling like todays Yougov is clearly misleading us.

    Although I am closer to the Conservatives views now living back in North Yorkshire with parents and not in London, I am not voting Conservative. I’m casting my votes for libdems. The only reason I am explaining these facts is because there is a big elephant staring you in the face - This particular election has potential to dramatically change once starting gun fired. And it’s so funny you refuse to acknowledge it’s there.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773
    Leon said:

    Further thoughts on Paris. It really depends where you go. The left bank is generally much better. The 6th and 7th look fine. Even around Gare Montparnasse it looks civilised

    It’s as soon as you cross the Seine and it’s anywhere in and around the 1st and 2nd, and of course, the Gare du Nord

    I’m about 300m from the Opera and I just saw a guy lying flat out on the bare sidewalk, face down, apparently comatose. Fentanyl or Tranq I presume

    You just didn’t see shit like that 20 years ago. Maybe even 5 years ago

    It’s particularly noticeable in Paris BECAUSE it was once so pristine - and always beautiful. Now she’s like a model that got beaten up and lost three teeth and potentially an eye

    I've only been to Paris once, in 1999. My abiding memory is of it being covered in graffiti and dogshit and getting caught up in a protest; also dodgy looking types from North Africa scamming tourists by the Eiffel Tower; also flashers and other nutters on the Metro. It made London look like Bruges for cleanliness and order.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    Leon said:

    Further thoughts on Paris. It really depends where you go. The left bank is generally much better. The 6th and 7th look fine. Even around Gare Montparnasse it looks civilised

    It’s as soon as you cross the Seine and it’s anywhere in and around the 1st and 2nd, and of course, the Gare du Nord

    I’m about 300m from the Opera and I just saw a guy lying flat out on the bare sidewalk, face down, apparently comatose. Fentanyl or Tranq I presume

    You just didn’t see shit like that 20 years ago. Maybe even 5 years ago

    It’s particularly noticeable in Paris BECAUSE it was once so pristine - and always beautiful. Now she’s like a model that got beaten up and lost three teeth and potentially an eye

    You are misremembering.

    GdN has been a shithole for as long as I've been going there although now in fact the brasseries opposite the station look rather attractive. Elsewhere people face down on the "bare sidewalk" (as opposed to...)? So what - happens all the time everywhere. One guy blotto for whatever reason and the city is falling apart is the thesis? Not 100% sure about that.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    Cicero said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    I think my vote would go to the Emley Moor Transmission mast. You can see it for miles.
    No mention of Fylingdales on the Moor? But on reflection it's been rebuilt?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,344
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    John Major thinks that the better the economy is doing by the time of the general election, the better Labour will perform. Now, this is probably a distorted view on his part as he takes as his evidence that he won in 1992 when the economy was crap and lost heavily in 1997 when "Britain was booming", but the basis for him saying this is that people will more willingly vote for change, especially for a party perceived as spending more on nice things, if they feel the economy is not in danger. Otherwise they cling to the devil they know.
    The problem is that, while “the economy” might be doing well in the abstract, most people only see their mortgages go up and the rest of their money spent on food and energy. Very few are feeling better off now than they were in 2019.
    My own view is that the economy will perform pretty well for the rest of the decade, due to catch up from the abnormal 2020-23 period, rapid growth in business investment since 2021, and quite a high savings ratio, currently. But, that won't necessarily translate into a feelgood factor.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    Cicero said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    I think my vote would go to the Emley Moor Transmission mast. You can see it for miles.
    That's more of a familiar landmark than 'noomy', though.

    The nearby West Yorkshire Sculpture Park - on a bleak day - has a certain something about it.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited May 2
    Andy_JS said:

    Just voted LD for the two London assembly votes, but Khan for the mayoral. Sorry Rob, can't risk Hall sneaking it.

    Are you worried that she might sneak it?
    1) I never altogether trust local polling because of the sample size issue; and 2) I think she is so appalling that it's important that she is not just beaten, but trounced.

    Only then might the Tories learn that they need to work a lot harder on their candidate selection. Frankly, it's insulting to Londoners that we've been offered her as their candidate.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,493



    Inflation under 2%, strong 2024 growth bouncing us out of recession and on path to further tax cuts, and interest rate and mortgage cuts too? On the hustings Sunak told Truss she was wrong and he could do it right, and has proved it by completely reversing the damage she caused.

    Hope you don't mind me snipping this paragraph out. You appear to be suffering from the same hopium as HY is.

    Inflation? How about interest rates? How about mortgages - you say "cuts" to rates but they have just gone *up* again. And a cut from the peak is still an increase - mine didn't go up as much as it could have done, but do you think I should be greatful to the Tories that my Truss Tax is *only* £170 a month?

    Why are the Tories sinking so quickly? Because having put taxes up to their highest level they are telling people there has been a tax cut. Having opened the door to soaring levels of migration they're claiming they have cut it. Having put the price of *everything* up a lot they're saying they cut inflation.

    I know that hopium gets you lot driving forward with "we can sell this" but in the real world the only thing you are selling is the determination to absolutely destroy this government. You cannot lie to people's faces and insist that their lived experience actually isn't what they experience daily. It just proves to more and more of them that you are utterly disconnected from reality and sanity.
    Don’t mind debating you on this and your “Hopia” rubbish. You seem deluded about what polls are telling you, how politics works, and what’s about to happen.

    What am I forecasting that you disagree with? General Election result on 4th July 2024 is 39% Labour 33% Conservative, or similar combination with Con just 5 or 6 behind. And you can’t see how on earth we quickly go from here to there? Is this the question I must answer?

    The polling what matters to whole electorate, showing Labour ahead on all measures, bin it. For recovery to 34% Tories will focus on what matters to voters still leaning to them - it doesn’t matter a jot for every extra badger shot, 68% want Tories out even more, if Cons move from 24% to 32% and beyond targetting swingback. Tories have shipped about 10% to Reform in only 18 months, these are clearly softish votes. What do these recent reform voters, and those 2019 Tory Don’t Knows often in Mikes and TSE headers, need to hear during a campaign to be tempted back?

    Remember how polls moved in 2017 and 2019 in the campaign. Every GE becomes a “forced choice” because support for minor parties like Reforms manifesto of unicorns, comes under pressure. One candidate wins FPTP in large constituency’s, this usually reduces voter option to 2 candidates who can win the seat. Conservative or Starmer, or waste your vote nearly everywhere - love it or hate it, you can’t deny FPTP does do this. And Voters know how painful letting in a horrible government and PM they get stuck with for 5 years, most will use their vote wisely not chuck it away. When I see this smorgasbord polling “choose your preferred unicorn” I shout at the screen: that mountain of deliberately wasted votes just won’t happen! It never does in a UK GE, so why now?

    Only “Forced choice” polling from now gives us more realistic GE prediction. The last forced choice poll I noted was by Delta earlier in March, Lab just 11 points ahead 42% to 31%. Tories already polling in 30’s now before start of campaigning, before two party emphasis and squeezing others gets serious. I want to see forced choice poll from every pollster, don’t you? If forced choice polls taken exactly same time as normal one is completely different, and all have Tories in the 30+%, you will instantly see I am right, too much full options polling like todays Yougov is clearly misleading us.

    Although I am closer to the Conservatives views now living back in North Yorkshire with parents and not in London, I am not voting Conservative. I’m casting my votes for libdems. The only reason I am explaining these facts is because there is a big elephant staring you in the face - This particular election has potential to dramatically change once starting gun fired. And it’s so funny you refuse to acknowledge it’s there.
    Mortgages have started ticking up, but this is due to profiteering being sold to us as “swap rates”, and just a blip in the big scheme of things when on 9th May BoE announce interest rate cut it will spark the downward fight on mortgage deals.

    Rishi’s Economic Miracle coming to front pages and TV screens very soon, deal with it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Leon said:

    Jesus effing Christ Paris is cold and grey. STILL. 12C with a sharp breeze and people looking irritable in winter coats and scarves. What a dump. I agree with this Spectator article

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/paris-city-of-blight/

    Judging by the wee portrait sketch the author has been somewhat ravaged by his Paris experience.
    Face au trottoir?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,238

    Leon said:

    Jesus effing Christ Paris is cold and grey. STILL. 12C with a sharp breeze and people looking irritable in winter coats and scarves. What a dump. I agree with this Spectator article

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/paris-city-of-blight/

    Judging by the wee portrait sketch the author has been somewhat ravaged by his Paris experience.
    I know a spectator journalist. He says the cartoons are famously bad and something of an in joke
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,212
    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney deals with the Greens compromise and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
    At the risk of having my wrist slapped for being a non-SNPer offering advice on SNP matters, it does seem like Swinney is the best bet and might help claw back a bit of support. He benefits from the fact that leaders who were unimpressive first time round but keep their noses clean can still be relatively popular in their older age.
    Swinney as leader and Forbes as Deputy or Finance would though be a clear swing to the right by the SNP.

    Both relatively fiscally conservative and Forbes a social conservative too
    Banter heuristic demands she gets Equalities... 😀
    And all the non-jobs the Greens had
    I can’t see how Forbes can work with the Greens. Forgetting the religious/social beliefs, their more material policies are separated by a serious political distance.

    Because of the structure of the Green Party, any “sell out” of their beliefs would result in ructions, rapidly. A leader who did that would be out on their arse.

    Forbes could simply sign up to everything. But that would torpedo her pitch as having a set of principled, sensible policies that are different to the current status quo.

    So, poison for both of them.

    Deputy or other jobs would mean Forbes going along with Swinney - collective responsibility. Which, almost certainly means Continuity SNP.

    So unless she is in the mood of “pull together to save the Party” and is prepared to potentially sacrifice her cause… I don’t see it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Andy_JS said:

    Just voted LD for the two London assembly votes, but Khan for the mayoral. Sorry Rob, can't risk Hall sneaking it.

    Are you worried that she might sneak it?
    1) I never altogether trust local polling because of the sample size issue; and 2) I think she is so appalling that it's important that she is not just beaten, but trounced.

    Only then might the Tories learn that they need to work a lot harder on their candidate selection. Frankly, it's insulting to Londoners that we've been offered her as their candidate.
    TBF she was the Tories' *second choice* - but I suppose that is the point.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @ConnorGillies

    NEW: Kate Forbes to give a statement later today. @SkyNews

    She's not running
    But is she standing? :wink:
    It's looking like a stitch up. I don't think Swinney would have been singing her praises quite so loudly if he thought they were going to be in competition with each other. It also neatly differentiates Swinney from Yousaf as coming back to the centre with both himself and Forbes, people Yousaf didn't find a space for (not that they were exactly desperate).

    Like Westminster, arguably even more so, there is a chronic lack of talent at Holyrood in all parties including the SNP. Forbes is not someone to waste.
    I guess Swinney deals with the Greens compromise and as a safe pair of hands diffuses the various landmines strewn by Sturgeon and Yousaf, something Forbes is temperamentally incapable of doing. Meanwhile Forbes gets a track record as the heir apparent.
    At the risk of having my wrist slapped for being a non-SNPer offering advice on SNP matters, it does seem like Swinney is the best bet and might help claw back a bit of support. He benefits from the fact that leaders who were unimpressive first time round but keep their noses clean can still be relatively popular in their older age.
    Swinney as leader and Forbes as Deputy or Finance would though be a clear swing to the right by the SNP.

    Both relatively fiscally conservative and Forbes a social conservative too
    Banter heuristic demands she gets Equalities... 😀
    And all the non-jobs the Greens had
    I can’t see how Forbes can work with the Greens. Forgetting the religious/social beliefs, their more material policies are separated by a serious political distance.

    Because of the structure of the Green Party, any “sell out” of their beliefs would result in ructions, rapidly. A leader who did that would be out on their arse.

    Forbes could simply sign up to everything. But that would torpedo her pitch as having a set of principled, sensible policies that are different to the current status quo.

    So, poison for both of them.

    Deputy or other jobs would mean Forbes going along with Swinney - collective responsibility. Which, almost certainly means Continuity SNP.

    So unless she is in the mood of “pull together to save the Party” and is prepared to potentially sacrifice her cause… I don’t see it.
    What's she been doing for the last few years?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,238
    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    I think my vote would go to the Emley Moor Transmission mast. You can see it for miles.
    That's more of a familiar landmark than 'noomy', though.

    The nearby West Yorkshire Sculpture Park - on a bleak day - has a certain something about it.
    Yeah that’s not noom. That’s just *impressive*

    Way to not get the point
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    Carnyx said:

    Cicero said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    I think my vote would go to the Emley Moor Transmission mast. You can see it for miles.
    No mention of Fylingdales on the Moor? But on reflection it's been rebuilt?
    Yes, the AN/FPS-132 doesn't have quite the presence of the old giant golf balls.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    Carnyx said:

    Cicero said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another thought on Noom

    Day before yesterday I went to Mont St Michel for the first time. Of course I compared it to St Michael’s Mount (the latter was actually a monastic satellite of the former for a while). I know the Cornish one really well, I once took tea with Lord and Lady St Levan, in the castle, and found it very hard not to mention Edward St Aubyn and his *interesting backstory*. But I managed it

    Anyway the French version is much more impressive in several ways - it’s a lot bigger. It’s more architecturally harmonious and beautiful. It is imposing in a way the Cornish one is not

    On the other hand the Cornish version is properly surrounded by tidal waters, and it has an even more interesting history - it’s probably the isle of Ictis mentioned by classical scholars as the tin trading island of the Phoenicians - Cornwall’s tin industry is at least 3000 years old

    More importantly the Cornish one has a ton of noom and the French one has about zero (after your first gobsmacked initial approach). Why? The trillions of tourists don’t help at all, but also the French one has that classic french noomlessness. Someone rubbed away the patina. There is no mad aristocratic family with a known history of incestuous father rapists living in one of the towers

    Voila, c’est sans Noom

    I find something noomy about all our western islands. That 'end of the earth' feeling.

    Perhaps its the age of the land, particularly in the Hebrides, where it seems at first sight that it has been like this for billions of years and the ancient inhabitants have only just gone.

    Of course, that ignores the not so romantic reason why they have only just gone.


    I'm trying to think of the noomiest place in Yorkshire but am finding it tricky. Fountains Abbey has too many visitors and too many cakes, like Mont St Michel, magnificent though it is.

    I quite like the empty moors, so Top Withens could be a valid choice, although the Brontes weren't quite long enough ago.

    If only there was more left of Thornborough Henges...
    Is Whitby in Yorkshire? That always looks Noomy to be, but I’ve not been

    For me the noomiest place in Yorkshire must be Haworth and Heptonstall, for the Brontë House and Sylvia Plath’s grave. Three of the greatest female writers in history, all packed together in that satanically beautiful scenery, with the weird gritstone houses and the austere moors everywhere, and the cascading waters over crags

    Top notch Noom

    The grave in particular is decidedly noomy, Ted Hughes chose well. The anonymity of it makes it all better
    Howarth's graveyard is a gloomy place, with a profusion of infants and young children listed on the old gravestones. It's also at the top of a hill, and it's speculated that the regular supply of new corpses polluted the local water supply.
    Average life expectancy was somewhere in the mid twenties.

    And you mention Whitby without noting Bram Stoker's little story ?
    The fact the Brontës’ talented brother drank himself to death in that pub only adds to the Noom. Also the poisonously tiny shoes of Charlotte Brontë in the house. And they all died so absurdly young

    It’s bleak as fuck and I love it. Bleakness leading to beauty is a sure source of Noom

    Plus you’ve got all the lesbians down at Hebden Bridge

    World class nooming by Yorkshire there 👏
    Noomiest in Yorkshire? All Saints North Street, York. Just yards off the tourist trail, step into an unbroken medieval culture in closeup, don't miss the Prick of Conscience window, 1420, if you are lucky in total solitude.

    And Selby Abbey. Echoes of Durham but few if any people and surrounded by tat.
    I think my vote would go to the Emley Moor Transmission mast. You can see it for miles.
    No mention of Fylingdales on the Moor? But on reflection it's been rebuilt?
    Emley tower is a remarkable structure but I don't find much atmosphere up there. Its been spoilt a bit recently by having a boring guyed mast nearby as a temporary spare, too. It needs to stand alone for the full effect.

    Rudston Monolith (mentioned earlier) might be much older skyscraper technology but beats it hands down.


    Fylingdales golf balls were replaced by a "Deep Thought" style pyramid structure and although it is imposing it doesn't quite have the oomph.

    Of course, if you want golf balls, you can still tee off at Menwith Hill where the US listen in to everyone, including all their allies.

    Don't test the fence!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,238
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Further thoughts on Paris. It really depends where you go. The left bank is generally much better. The 6th and 7th look fine. Even around Gare Montparnasse it looks civilised

    It’s as soon as you cross the Seine and it’s anywhere in and around the 1st and 2nd, and of course, the Gare du Nord

    I’m about 300m from the Opera and I just saw a guy lying flat out on the bare sidewalk, face down, apparently comatose. Fentanyl or Tranq I presume

    You just didn’t see shit like that 20 years ago. Maybe even 5 years ago

    It’s particularly noticeable in Paris BECAUSE it was once so pristine - and always beautiful. Now she’s like a model that got beaten up and lost three teeth and potentially an eye

    You are misremembering.

    GdN has been a shithole for as long as I've been going there although now in fact the brasseries opposite the station look rather attractive. Elsewhere people face down on the "bare sidewalk" (as opposed to...)? So what - happens all the time everywhere. One guy blotto for whatever reason and the city is falling apart is the thesis? Not 100% sure about that.
    I was prepared to admit I’d got it wrong - or at least exaggerated - when I disembarked at Gare du Montparnasse

    Soon as we crossed the Seine, nope, I was right. Besides the spectator agrees with me and that magazine is famously correct about everything

    And I speak as the reincarnation of Napoleon and as the Jay Rayner of Place

    In fact Napoleon was more a prior incarnation of me, really
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