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The detail from YouGov’s CON 20% poll – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    Nigelb said:

    Sen. Tillis knocks Republicans who want to kill immigration deal to help Trump politically, saying "we have to have people in our party" who won't bow to that. "I didn't come here to have the president as a boss, or a candidate as a boss. I came here to pass good, solid policy."
    https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1750608864641163549

    It's impressive, if depressing, how one of the positive things about US politics - not being slavishly loyal to a single leader - has been entirely eliminated.
  • Options

    Back on topic, no wonder the Tories tried to keep the elderly alive during Covid, at the expense of the prosperity and mental health of younger people. Imagine the effect on Tory votes if oldies had been allowed to die to protect the rest of the population, and there were 50% fewer over 65s. Or would under 65s have been more grateful and more inclined to vote Tory?

    Interesting that my 84 year old wife and I (80 in February) have had 7 covid vaccines and yet we have had covid 3 times, twice really nasty
    I predict that, despite many comments on PB, you will be advising us after the GE, that you voted Conservative.
    I have to get to the election first !!!!!
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,454

    Back on topic, no wonder the Tories tried to keep the elderly alive during Covid, at the expense of the prosperity and mental health of younger people. Imagine the effect on Tory votes if oldies had been allowed to die to protect the rest of the population, and there were 50% fewer over 65s. Or would under 65s have been more grateful and more inclined to vote Tory?

    Interesting that my 84 year old wife and I (80 in February) have had 7 covid vaccines and yet we have had covid 3 times, twice really nasty
    Sadly the COVID vaccine and indeed infection does not provide lasting protection against infection. Boosters help somewhat, but as is obvious plenty of people are getting COVID. What has changed is the consequences of that. Estimates of 5 to 10 % of people having COVID recently yet no crisis in the NHS (no more than normal at any rate) and mercifully few deaths.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,046
    Nigelb said:

    Sen. Tillis knocks Republicans who want to kill immigration deal to help Trump politically, saying "we have to have people in our party" who won't bow to that. "I didn't come here to have the president as a boss, or a candidate as a boss. I came here to pass good, solid policy."
    https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1750608864641163549

    He needs to follow the UK and base his campaign on stopping small boats crossing the Rio Grande.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    Scott_xP said:

    @Geri_E_L_Scott
    New: Rishi Sunak's allies are pressing to increase the threshold for triggering a confidence vote in the prime minister to half of all Tory MPs.

    Harriett Baldwin, the chair of the Treasury Select Committee, made the suggestion in the Tory MPs Whatsapp group, in a move being interpreted as "rolling the pitch".

    In a message to colleagues seen by The Times, Baldwin was replying to Maria Caulfield, the women's health minister, who had said the "constant melodrama" in the Conservative Party was coming up on the doorstep. Baldwin said: "One practical thing we could do as a parliamentary party is ask the 22 exec to change our rules so that it takes 50% of backbenchers to challenge a sitting PM, rather than 15% of the parliamentary party."

    Currently 53 MPs would need to submit letters of no confidence to trigger a leadership bid.

    She said this would only apply if the leader was prime minister, not in opposition, and it "could help reassure a public who want to know who they're voting for as PM".

    She told The Times: “Call me old-fashioned but I like to adhere to the privacy and discretion of the 1922 Committee as a forum for backbench colleagues to raise discussion points about topical matters.”

    Sally-Ann Hart, the MP for Hasting and Rye who is an executive member of the 1922 committee, told Baldwin she would take the idea up.

    But one MP on the right, who is disillusioned with Sunak, said: "It just shows the panic in No 10 if they're rolling the pitch like this, I think they're just very nervous.

    It's a low bar at present, but as the final comment notes it's a bad look to be focusing on.

    50% does seem too high though - If you are going to permit a challenge, recognising it as a necessary process, then it's not fair or realistic to expect coup plotters to have complete the coup before getting a vote.
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,311

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    The CPS reached the conclusion that “There was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction for murder” in the case of Valdo Colocane
    Does this mean they think the jury would find him Not Guilty if he had been tried for murder? What would have happened to him in that scenario?

    "He believed his mind was being controlled by external influences and that his family was in danger if he didn't obey the voices in his head."

    Chief crown prosecutor for the east midlands Janine McKinney speaking about killer Valdo Calocane.


    https://x.com/skynews/status/1750499918463037823?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    If there had been a trial the jury would have convicted him of manslaughter on the ground of diminished responsibility. Which he pleaded to. The psychiatric evidence was unanimous that his responsibility was at least diminished, so there would have been no lawful basis for a murder conviction.

    He would also have been convicted of attempted murder. The special case of diminished responsibility only applies to murder for historical rather than logical reasons.

    The convictions recognise real and actual culpability, but diminished. The same can apply when, for example, a wife kills an abusive and violent husband when it is not in self defence.
    Given that, whether it was murder or manslaughter, he is very unlikely to ever be freed, wouldn’t it be better to convict him of murder?

    I say this because the bereaved families are furious at it being manslaughter, they feel let down, and a murder verdict doesn’t seem like it would make any practical difference to the guilty man anyway
    The families have been let down, terribly, but not by the manslaughter charge, which as other have noted is likely the right one given the killer's psychotic state. Mental health services and the police have questions to answer about their engagement with the man in the months leading up to the crime, but I expect that at least some of the answer is that they were being asked to do more than their resources allowed.
    They are very unhappy with the CPS that he wasn’t tried for murder

    "True justice has not been served today".

    Mother of victim Barnaby Webber, Emma Webber, says the families were "horrified" that Calocane's manslaughter plea was accepted.

    Live updates: trib.al/kdcG8Ne

    📺 Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233 and YouTube



    https://x.com/skynews/status/1750495214555340868?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Families will always feel like that. If he had been tried for murder, they'd have been disappointed when he was found not guilty. If by some chance he had been found guilty of murder, he'd have got life and spent a week or so in prison before being moved to Broadmoor.

    Grace's father said something along the lines of placing their faith in the courts and judiciary, so he was possibly more accepting of the way things turned out, or was putting on a stiff upper lip.

    So long as he's going away for good, that is what matters.
    I'm not sure. This is not the first case where opportunities were missed. Colocane was already in the system but fell through the cracks, like Zara Aleena's killer; as did the 2-year-old Bronson Battersby who starved to death last week, as when terrorists like Salman Abedi who bombed the Ariana Grande concert were known to Special Branch or MI5. Our public services are failing and people are dying.
    That’s what happens when too many people prioritise tax cuts over funding our services, in this case social services and security services, sufficiently.
    Its cute that you think tax cuts have been prioritised when this sorry excuse for a Government has put taxes up to the highest in decades.
    And have squandered mote money than any government since the CABAL.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,231

    Scott_xP said:

    Well now...

    @DavidMDrucker
    NEWS: Republican National Committee reviewing a draft resolution that if approved would declare TRUMP the party’s presumptive 2024 nominee even as @NikkiHaley wages a vigorous campaign against the frontrunner.

    https://t.co/rl5aiQ90ap

    It is going to be absolutely hilarious if SCOTUS disqualify him.
    He can become President of the True American States: Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Virginia, Georgia, et al.
    American Patriots (n) - People who wish America's enemies had won the Civil War and World War Two.
    The fashion for conflating the South with the Nazis is one of the reasons why the US is becoming so volatile and ceasing to function as a united polity.

    It implies that the US of Reagan and Clinton had monuments to the equivalents of Hitler and Göring.
    Not the South, the Confederate traitors.
    President Ford speaking in 1975:

    I am very pleased to sign Senate Joint Resolution 23, restoring posthumously the long overdue, full rights of citizenship to General Robert E. Lee. This legislation corrects a 110-year oversight of American history. It is significant that it is signed at this place.

    Lee's dedication to his native State of Virginia chartered his course for the bitter Civil War years, causing him to reluctantly resign from a distinguished career in the United States Army and to serve as General of the Army of Northern Virginia. He, thus, forfeited his rights to U.S. citizenship.

    Once the war was over, he firmly felt the wounds of the North and South must be bound up. He sought to show by example that the citizens of the South must dedicate their efforts to rebuilding that region of the country as a strong and vital part of the American Union.

    As a soldier, General Lee left his mark on military strategy. As a man, he stood as the symbol of valor and of duty. As an educator, he appealed to reason and learning to achieve understanding and to build a stronger nation. The course he chose after the war became a symbol to all those who had marched with him in the bitter years towards Appomattox.

    General Lee's character has been an example to succeeding generations, making the restoration of his citizenship an event in which every American can take pride.


    https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/speeches/750473.htm
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,037
    Selebian said:

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    The CPS reached the conclusion that “There was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction for murder” in the case of Valdo Colocane
    Does this mean they think the jury would find him Not Guilty if he had been tried for murder? What would have happened to him in that scenario?

    "He believed his mind was being controlled by external influences and that his family was in danger if he didn't obey the voices in his head."

    Chief crown prosecutor for the east midlands Janine McKinney speaking about killer Valdo Calocane.


    https://x.com/skynews/status/1750499918463037823?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    If there had been a trial the jury would have convicted him of manslaughter on the ground of diminished responsibility. Which he pleaded to. The psychiatric evidence was unanimous that his responsibility was at least diminished, so there would have been no lawful basis for a murder conviction.

    He would also have been convicted of attempted murder. The special case of diminished responsibility only applies to murder for historical rather than logical reasons.

    The convictions recognise real and actual culpability, but diminished. The same can apply when, for example, a wife kills an abusive and violent husband when it is not in self defence.
    Given that, whether it was murder or manslaughter, he is very unlikely to ever be freed, wouldn’t it be better to convict him of murder?

    I say this because the bereaved families are furious at it being manslaughter, they feel let down, and a murder verdict doesn’t seem like it would make any practical difference to the guilty man anyway
    The families have been let down, terribly, but not by the manslaughter charge, which as other have noted is likely the right one given the killer's psychotic state. Mental health services and the police have questions to answer about their engagement with the man in the months leading up to the crime, but I expect that at least some of the answer is that they were being asked to do more than their resources allowed.
    They are very unhappy with the CPS that he wasn’t tried for murder

    "True justice has not been served today".

    Mother of victim Barnaby Webber, Emma Webber, says the families were "horrified" that Calocane's manslaughter plea was accepted.

    Live updates: trib.al/kdcG8Ne

    📺 Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233 and YouTube



    https://x.com/skynews/status/1750495214555340868?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Families will always feel like that. If he had been tried for murder, they'd have been disappointed when he was found not guilty. If by some chance he had been found guilty of murder, he'd have got life and spent a week or so in prison before being moved to Broadmoor.

    Grace's father said something along the lines of placing their faith in the courts and judiciary, so he was possibly more accepting of the way things turned out, or was putting on a stiff upper lip.

    So long as he's going away for good, that is what matters.
    The defence lawyer is asking for it not to be life. I suppose he would do

    Without wanting to diminish the death of Ian Coates, those two kids (possibly in love?) were enjoying the happiest days of their lives, walking home at 4am in the middle of summer after a night out, not a care in the world. Then it turned into a horror movie. One of the most heartbreaking cases I’ve known.
    Not in love, just good friends. I know the mother of the young lady's boyfriend at the time. She missed a planned meeting on the day the story broke as she was down there to be with him.
    Ah I see. Thanks for the info
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,311
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Terrible numbers, but I doubt if the Conservatives will be coming close to 20% at the election, nor Reform close to 13%.

    True, once the bottom really falls out, they'll be lucky to hit anything like 20%.

    image
    That was under PR and before Brexit had been delivered
    "Delivering" Brexit turns out not to be the positive you imply.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,037
    edited January 25
    Scott_xP said:

    @Geri_E_L_Scott
    New: Rishi Sunak's allies are pressing to increase the threshold for triggering a confidence vote in the prime minister to half of all Tory MPs.

    Harriett Baldwin, the chair of the Treasury Select Committee, made the suggestion in the Tory MPs Whatsapp group, in a move being interpreted as "rolling the pitch".

    In a message to colleagues seen by The Times, Baldwin was replying to Maria Caulfield, the women's health minister, who had said the "constant melodrama" in the Conservative Party was coming up on the doorstep. Baldwin said: "One practical thing we could do as a parliamentary party is ask the 22 exec to change our rules so that it takes 50% of backbenchers to challenge a sitting PM, rather than 15% of the parliamentary party."

    Currently 53 MPs would need to submit letters of no confidence to trigger a leadership bid.

    She said this would only apply if the leader was prime minister, not in opposition, and it "could help reassure a public who want to know who they're voting for as PM".

    She told The Times: “Call me old-fashioned but I like to adhere to the privacy and discretion of the 1922 Committee as a forum for backbench colleagues to raise discussion points about topical matters.”

    Sally-Ann Hart, the MP for Hasting and Rye who is an executive member of the 1922 committee, told Baldwin she would take the idea up.

    But one MP on the right, who is disillusioned with Sunak, said: "It just shows the panic in No 10 if they're rolling the pitch like this, I think they're just very nervous.


    ‘She said this would only apply if the leader was prime minister, not in opposition, and it "could help reassure a public who want to know who they're voting for as PM".‘

    Fair enough if they apply it to Prime Ministers who have been voted for by the public… can it be backdated a couple of years?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,829

    Wages of Woke appear to be coming at expense of CUP?

    Also note that there is virtually no gender gap for Conservatives, compared with mild one for Labour (leaning female) and strong one for Reform (lurching male).

    Almost as many 18 to 24 year olds would vote SNP as Conservative. Across the whole UK.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,019
    edited January 25
    Scott_xP said:

    @Geri_E_L_Scott
    New: Rishi Sunak's allies are pressing to increase the threshold for triggering a confidence vote in the prime minister to half of all Tory MPs.

    Harriett Baldwin, the chair of the Treasury Select Committee, made the suggestion in the Tory MPs Whatsapp group, in a move being interpreted as "rolling the pitch".

    In a message to colleagues seen by The Times, Baldwin was replying to Maria Caulfield, the women's health minister, who had said the "constant melodrama" in the Conservative Party was coming up on the doorstep. Baldwin said: "One practical thing we could do as a parliamentary party is ask the 22 exec to change our rules so that it takes 50% of backbenchers to challenge a sitting PM, rather than 15% of the parliamentary party."

    Currently 53 MPs would need to submit letters of no confidence to trigger a leadership bid.

    She said this would only apply if the leader was prime minister, not in opposition, and it "could help reassure a public who want to know who they're voting for as PM".

    She told The Times: “Call me old-fashioned but I like to adhere to the privacy and discretion of the 1922 Committee as a forum for backbench colleagues to raise discussion points about topical matters.”

    Sally-Ann Hart, the MP for Hasting and Rye who is an executive member of the 1922 committee, told Baldwin she would take the idea up.

    But one MP on the right, who is disillusioned with Sunak, said: "It just shows the panic in No 10 if they're rolling the pitch like this, I think they're just very nervous.

    That's treating the symptom, not the cause.

    Might be closer to 53 than I assumed?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,261
    @SwissWatchGuy
    If you are unsure of how completely insane Trump's political operation is, and how royally screwed the GOP is going into the general election, this should give you an idea:

    On January 22nd, Trump attorney Alina Habba told Judge Lewis Kaplan she needed to delay Trump's defamation trial because her parents had Covid and she herself was sick.

    On January 23rd, Trump staffer Dylan Quattrucci took a photo with Alina Habba at Trump's NH primary victory party and posted that photo to social media.

    Quattrucci inadvertently shared with the world that Habba had lied to a Judge to delay court proceedings. (I would image that Habba committed some kind of crime there).

    For doing that, Quattrucci was immediately kicked out of Trump's victory event. Of course he filmed his expulsion and posted it to social media.

    There was no way Quattrucci could have known taking a photo with Habba, who is more of a MAGA influencer than a lawyer, would have resulted in his immediate excommunication from Trump world.

    For reference, Dylan Quattrucci was was filmed at the US capitol on J6 saying this to police officers:

    “If you are a police officer and you are going to abide by unconstitutional bullshit, I want you to do me a favor right now and go hang yourself, because you’re a piece of shit."

    Great people.

    It's just deranged idiocy all around.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,949
    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Geri_E_L_Scott
    New: Rishi Sunak's allies are pressing to increase the threshold for triggering a confidence vote in the prime minister to half of all Tory MPs.

    Harriett Baldwin, the chair of the Treasury Select Committee, made the suggestion in the Tory MPs Whatsapp group, in a move being interpreted as "rolling the pitch".

    In a message to colleagues seen by The Times, Baldwin was replying to Maria Caulfield, the women's health minister, who had said the "constant melodrama" in the Conservative Party was coming up on the doorstep. Baldwin said: "One practical thing we could do as a parliamentary party is ask the 22 exec to change our rules so that it takes 50% of backbenchers to challenge a sitting PM, rather than 15% of the parliamentary party."

    Currently 53 MPs would need to submit letters of no confidence to trigger a leadership bid.

    She said this would only apply if the leader was prime minister, not in opposition, and it "could help reassure a public who want to know who they're voting for as PM".

    She told The Times: “Call me old-fashioned but I like to adhere to the privacy and discretion of the 1922 Committee as a forum for backbench colleagues to raise discussion points about topical matters.”

    Sally-Ann Hart, the MP for Hasting and Rye who is an executive member of the 1922 committee, told Baldwin she would take the idea up.

    But one MP on the right, who is disillusioned with Sunak, said: "It just shows the panic in No 10 if they're rolling the pitch like this, I think they're just very nervous.


    ‘She said this would only apply if the leader was prime minister, not in opposition, and it "could help reassure a public who want to know who they're voting for as PM".‘

    Fair enough if they apply it to Prime Ministers who have been voted for by the public… can it be backdated a couple of years?
    Johnson won his VONC in June 2022, so wasn't evicted by that. He resigned a month later, after cabinet resignations.

  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,261
    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec
  • Options
    Hmmm the polling detail is interesting.

    I wonder if in reality the 2019 vote was a bit of an aberration and really turned on a hybrid of “Get Brexit Done” and Johnson v Corbyn. If so, all of those guns of been spiked. We are out of the EU; there is little risk that Labour will take us back into the EU; and, the two politicians that reached the parts other politicians don’t have left the stage (in positive and negative ways - in 2019 a Conservative voting acquaintance claims to have spoilt his ballot as he couldn’t abide either of them).

    So does where the 2019 voters are today help work out how 2024 (or god forbid 2025 will work out)? I am sceptical.

    But if 2019 isn’t helpful then what is? 2017 was crazy - the Conservative manifesto and campaign performance sums up the dangers of hubris (albeit they did start some interesting inroads into the red wall - despite the shambles).

    So how about 2015? From my perspective 2015 was a tactical masterpiece - I didn’t think anyone but the Tories would win at the time, but the manner of the win was brutal. They destroyed their coalition partner down south - by hugging them in public and shafting them on the doorstep. They entwined the opposition with SNP in such a way that really halted Labour progress in the English swing seats in the midlands. The Labour leader and campaign were hardly diamonds too.

    But if it’s 2015, can the current Conservative Party master such a strategy? I don’t think so. The Liberal Democrat’s have fewer MPs now (thanks to 2015) and the SNPs aren’t the bogeyman to a certain type of English voter.

    So, if there is little the current administration can take from the last three elections - where should they draw their tactics, and will they be successful? Back to basics and 1992?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,047
    Scott_xP said:

    @SwissWatchGuy
    If you are unsure of how completely insane Trump's political operation is, and how royally screwed the GOP is going into the general election, this should give you an idea:

    On January 22nd, Trump attorney Alina Habba told Judge Lewis Kaplan she needed to delay Trump's defamation trial because her parents had Covid and she herself was sick.

    On January 23rd, Trump staffer Dylan Quattrucci took a photo with Alina Habba at Trump's NH primary victory party and posted that photo to social media.

    Quattrucci inadvertently shared with the world that Habba had lied to a Judge to delay court proceedings. (I would image that Habba committed some kind of crime there).

    For doing that, Quattrucci was immediately kicked out of Trump's victory event. Of course he filmed his expulsion and posted it to social media.

    There was no way Quattrucci could have known taking a photo with Habba, who is more of a MAGA influencer than a lawyer, would have resulted in his immediate excommunication from Trump world.

    For reference, Dylan Quattrucci was was filmed at the US capitol on J6 saying this to police officers:

    “If you are a police officer and you are going to abide by unconstitutional bullshit, I want you to do me a favor right now and go hang yourself, because you’re a piece of shit."

    Great people.

    It's just deranged idiocy all around.

    That Trump testimony in its entirety (remember the facts determined at the first trial, and the verdict cannot be questioned)...

    https://twitter.com/innercitypress/status/1750597398785855605
    ...Habba: Only one question?
    Judge Kaplan: You can ask the 2d question.
    Habba: "Why did you make the statements"-
    Judge Kaplan: No.
    Habba: I have a right to ask about intent.
    Judge Kaplan: I will decide what he has a right to do here. That's my job, not yours
    Habba: I can ask it that way--
    Judge Kaplan: It will not be an open ended question. If you ask it, there is likely to be an objection and I am likely to sustain it.
    Habba: That's it.
    Judge Kaplan: OK.
    Habba: What about 2d question?
    Judge Kaplan: It keeps changing
    Habba: As long as we have the deposition in, I think I'll be fine.
    Judge Kaplan: Well, I hope you will.
    [Jury entering!]
    Judge Kaplan: I hope lunch was better than the cafeteria usually is. Ms. Habba you may call your witness.
    Habba: Defense calls President Donald Trump...
    Trump: Donald John Trump.
    Habba: You viewed your deposition?
    Trump: I stand by it 100%, yes.
    Trump: She said something I considered a false accusation --
    Roberta Kaplan: Objection!
    Judge Kaplan: Sustained.
    Habba: I have no further questions.
    Judge Kaplan: Cross examination.
    Roberta Kaplan: There was a trial here, correct?
    Roberta Kaplan: Mr. Trump, is this the 1st trial between you and Ms. Carroll you've attended?
    Trump: Yes.
    Roberta Kaplan: No further questions.
    Habba: Did you have counsel at the previous trial & follow their advice?
    Trump: Yes.
    Roberta Kaplan: Objection
    Sustained
    Habba: No further questions.
    Judge Kaplan: Jurors, you may go until tomorrow morning, closing arguments.
    [Jury leaves]..



  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,093
    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Terrible numbers, but I doubt if the Conservatives will be coming close to 20% at the election, nor Reform close to 13%.

    True, once the bottom really falls out, they'll be lucky to hit anything like 20%.

    image
    That was under PR and before Brexit had been delivered
    "Delivering" Brexit turns out not to be the positive you imply.
    Yes for delivering Brexit aka Rosemarys Baby.

    That film still gives me the creeps !
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,949
    edited January 25

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    The CPS reached the conclusion that “There was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction for murder” in the case of Valdo Colocane
    Does this mean they think the jury would find him Not Guilty if he had been tried for murder? What would have happened to him in that scenario?

    "He believed his mind was being controlled by external influences and that his family was in danger if he didn't obey the voices in his head."

    Chief crown prosecutor for the east midlands Janine McKinney speaking about killer Valdo Calocane.


    https://x.com/skynews/status/1750499918463037823?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    If there had been a trial the jury would have convicted him of manslaughter on the ground of diminished responsibility. Which he pleaded to. The psychiatric evidence was unanimous that his responsibility was at least diminished, so there would have been no lawful basis for a murder conviction.

    He would also have been convicted of attempted murder. The special case of diminished responsibility only applies to murder for historical rather than logical reasons.

    The convictions recognise real and actual culpability, but diminished. The same can apply when, for example, a wife kills an abusive and violent husband when it is not in self defence.
    Given that, whether it was murder or manslaughter, he is very unlikely to ever be freed, wouldn’t it be better to convict him of murder?

    I say this because the bereaved families are furious at it being manslaughter, they feel let down, and a murder verdict doesn’t seem like it would make any practical difference to the guilty man anyway
    The families have been let down, terribly, but not by the manslaughter charge, which as other have noted is likely the right one given the killer's psychotic state. Mental health services and the police have questions to answer about their engagement with the man in the months leading up to the crime, but I expect that at least some of the answer is that they were being asked to do more than their resources allowed.
    They are very unhappy with the CPS that he wasn’t tried for murder

    "True justice has not been served today".

    Mother of victim Barnaby Webber, Emma Webber, says the families were "horrified" that Calocane's manslaughter plea was accepted.

    Live updates: trib.al/kdcG8Ne

    📺 Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233 and YouTube



    https://x.com/skynews/status/1750495214555340868?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Families will always feel like that. If he had been tried for murder, they'd have been disappointed when he was found not guilty. If by some chance he had been found guilty of murder, he'd have got life and spent a week or so in prison before being moved to Broadmoor.

    Grace's father said something along the lines of placing their faith in the courts and judiciary, so he was possibly more accepting of the way things turned out, or was putting on a stiff upper lip.

    So long as he's going away for good, that is what matters.
    I'm not sure. This is not the first case where opportunities were missed. Colocane was already in the system but fell through the cracks, like Zara Aleena's killer; as did the 2-year-old Bronson Battersby who starved to death last week, as when terrorists like Salman Abedi who bombed the Ariana Grande concert were known to Special Branch or MI5. Our public services are failing and people are dying.
    I am not sure that opportunities were missed. That needs to be decided by the reviews.

    Yes, the killer did have a track record with both police and local mental health services, including being sectioned 4 Times and picked up by the police for an assault on a flat mate etc. There doesn't seem to have been anything though that would have put him in custody though.

    I fully understand that the families want someone to blame, but there may well not be anything in his medical or police history to suggest this level of violence.

    He isn't guilty in law but will be in a secure mental hospital most likely for life.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,261
    ...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    The CPS reached the conclusion that “There was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction for murder” in the case of Valdo Colocane
    Does this mean they think the jury would find him Not Guilty if he had been tried for murder? What would have happened to him in that scenario?

    "He believed his mind was being controlled by external influences and that his family was in danger if he didn't obey the voices in his head."

    Chief crown prosecutor for the east midlands Janine McKinney speaking about killer Valdo Calocane.


    https://x.com/skynews/status/1750499918463037823?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    If there had been a trial the jury would have convicted him of manslaughter on the ground of diminished responsibility. Which he pleaded to. The psychiatric evidence was unanimous that his responsibility was at least diminished, so there would have been no lawful basis for a murder conviction.

    He would also have been convicted of attempted murder. The special case of diminished responsibility only applies to murder for historical rather than logical reasons.

    The convictions recognise real and actual culpability, but diminished. The same can apply when, for example, a wife kills an abusive and violent husband when it is not in self defence.
    Given that, whether it was murder or manslaughter, he is very unlikely to ever be freed, wouldn’t it be better to convict him of murder?

    I say this because the bereaved families are furious at it being manslaughter, they feel let down, and a murder verdict doesn’t seem like it would make any practical difference to the guilty man anyway
    The families have been let down, terribly, but not by the manslaughter charge, which as other have noted is likely the right one given the killer's psychotic state. Mental health services and the police have questions to answer about their engagement with the man in the months leading up to the crime, but I expect that at least some of the answer is that they were being asked to do more than their resources allowed.
    They are very unhappy with the CPS that he wasn’t tried for murder

    "True justice has not been served today".

    Mother of victim Barnaby Webber, Emma Webber, says the families were "horrified" that Calocane's manslaughter plea was accepted.

    Live updates: trib.al/kdcG8Ne

    📺 Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233 and YouTube



    https://x.com/skynews/status/1750495214555340868?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Families will always feel like that. If he had been tried for murder, they'd have been disappointed when he was found not guilty. If by some chance he had been found guilty of murder, he'd have got life and spent a week or so in prison before being moved to Broadmoor.

    Grace's father said something along the lines of placing their faith in the courts and judiciary, so he was possibly more accepting of the way things turned out, or was putting on a stiff upper lip.

    So long as he's going away for good, that is what matters.
    I'm not sure. This is not the first case where opportunities were missed. Colocane was already in the system but fell through the cracks, like Zara Aleena's killer; as did the 2-year-old Bronson Battersby who starved to death last week, as when terrorists like Salman Abedi who bombed the Ariana Grande concert were known to Special Branch or MI5. Our public services are failing and people are dying.
    I am not sure that opportunities were missed. That needs to be decided by the reviews.

    Yes, the killer did have a track record with both police and local mental health services, including being sectioned 4 Times and picked up by the police for an assault on a flat mate etc. There doesn't seem to have been anything though that would have put him in custody though.

    I fully understand that the families want someone to blame, but there may well not be anything in his medical or police history to suggest this level of violence.

    He isnt guilty in law but will be in a secure mental hospital most likely for life.
    He is guilty of manslaughter by diminished responsibility in law, even if not of murder
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211
    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    I thought plotters were bidding to install Mordaunt? Clearly they can't even get that right
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,047

    Scott_xP said:

    Well now...

    @DavidMDrucker
    NEWS: Republican National Committee reviewing a draft resolution that if approved would declare TRUMP the party’s presumptive 2024 nominee even as @NikkiHaley wages a vigorous campaign against the frontrunner.

    https://t.co/rl5aiQ90ap

    It is going to be absolutely hilarious if SCOTUS disqualify him.
    He can become President of the True American States: Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Virginia, Georgia, et al.
    American Patriots (n) - People who wish America's enemies had won the Civil War and World War Two.
    The fashion for conflating the South with the Nazis is one of the reasons why the US is becoming so volatile and ceasing to function as a united polity.

    It implies that the US of Reagan and Clinton had monuments to the equivalents of Hitler and Göring.
    Not the South, the Confederate traitors.
    President Ford speaking in 1975:

    I am very pleased to sign Senate Joint Resolution 23, restoring posthumously the long overdue, full rights of citizenship to General Robert E. Lee. This legislation corrects a 110-year oversight of American history. It is significant that it is signed at this place.

    Lee's dedication to his native State of Virginia chartered his course for the bitter Civil War years, causing him to reluctantly resign from a distinguished career in the United States Army and to serve as General of the Army of Northern Virginia. He, thus, forfeited his rights to U.S. citizenship.

    Once the war was over, he firmly felt the wounds of the North and South must be bound up. He sought to show by example that the citizens of the South must dedicate their efforts to rebuilding that region of the country as a strong and vital part of the American Union.

    As a soldier, General Lee left his mark on military strategy. As a man, he stood as the symbol of valor and of duty. As an educator, he appealed to reason and learning to achieve understanding and to build a stronger nation. The course he chose after the war became a symbol to all those who had marched with him in the bitter years towards Appomattox.

    General Lee's character has been an example to succeeding generations, making the restoration of his citizenship an event in which every American can take pride.


    https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/speeches/750473.htm
    The lost cause bullshit was still strong back then.
    That the war was about states' rights was still being taught in school.
    "Lies My Teacher Told Me" was still two decades away.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,657
    nico679 said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Terrible numbers, but I doubt if the Conservatives will be coming close to 20% at the election, nor Reform close to 13%.

    True, once the bottom really falls out, they'll be lucky to hit anything like 20%.

    image
    That was under PR and before Brexit had been delivered
    "Delivering" Brexit turns out not to be the positive you imply.
    Yes for delivering Brexit aka Rosemarys Baby.

    That film still gives me the creeps !
    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    I thought plotters were bidding to install Mordaunt? Clearly they can't even get that right
    Why would Kemi even want this? Better to be LOTO after a defeat
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,949

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    I thought plotters were bidding to install Mordaunt? Clearly they can't even get that right
    Why would Kemi even want this? Better to be LOTO after a defeat
    Yes, the invisible woman will remain invisible until after the coming Labour landslide.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,939
    edited January 25
    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    Raising the threshold required to oust the leader seems sensible, especially when the party is in government.

    Liz to the rescue (yeah right 😂 )

    Olly who?

    Why on earth would Kemi want to ruin her reputation by taking on this rabble before the election? Much better to wait until after the drubbing and then become LOTO.

    The only way I can see Rishi being axed before the election is if they can somehow find a way to get Boris back into Parliament.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    edited January 25
    Sunak is toast (before the election) isn’t he?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,261

    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.

    Britain has suspended negotiations for a multibillion pound trade deal with Canada in an acrimonious row over cheese.

    Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, told her Canadian counterpart that she could see no point in the talks continuing after Ottawa imposed a 245 per cent tariff on British stilton, cheddar and other cheese imports at the start of the month.

    @DavidGauke
    So we haven’t got a Canada-style free trade agreement with Canada?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,431
    Thank you to Isam for un-flagging 3 out of his 4 malicious troll-flags. A bit disappointed he couldn't bring himself to unflag the first one despite it being a curt but genuine response to his post.
  • Options
    CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 252
    There is no way this limps on till November... I'm just not buying it. The wheels will come off this government before then.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,657
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    Raising the threshold required to oust the leader seems sensible, especially when the party is in government.

    Liz to the rescue (yeah right 😂 )

    Olly who?

    Why on earth would Kemi want to ruin her reputation by taking on this rabble before the election? Much better to wait until after the drubbing and then become LOTO.

    The only way I can see Rishi being axed before the election is if they can somehow find a way to get Boris back into Parliament.
    Literally anyone would be better than Sunak. His premiership has been like watching a disastrous train wreck unfold in slow motion, unable to do anything about it.

    It was blindingly obvious he was an entitled useless talent-vacuum, the people who ramped him are idiots without the common sense they were born with.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,949
    Jonathan said:

    Sunak is toast (before the election) isn’t he?

    He's toast already.
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,533
    Scott_xP said:

    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.

    Britain has suspended negotiations for a multibillion pound trade deal with Canada in an acrimonious row over cheese.

    Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, told her Canadian counterpart that she could see no point in the talks continuing after Ottawa imposed a 245 per cent tariff on British stilton, cheddar and other cheese imports at the start of the month.

    @DavidGauke
    So we haven’t got a Canada-style free trade agreement with Canada?
    Canada’s answer to Liz Truss must be delighted at that tariff policy.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,554
    UK got away with a no heatwave-mega-crisis last summer unlike much of europe.

    Will we get away again in just five or so months time??


    Already things building abroad...


    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps

    Extreme heat wave in North Africa , records pulverized in MOROCCO and ALGERIA:

    Agadir ap 32.2 temp above summer average !

    ALGERIA
    28.4 Oran
    27.8 Sidi Bel Abbes
  • Options
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    Raising the threshold required to oust the leader seems sensible, especially when the party is in government.

    Liz to the rescue (yeah right 😂 )

    Olly who?

    Why on earth would Kemi want to ruin her reputation by taking on this rabble before the election? Much better to wait until after the drubbing and then become LOTO.

    The only way I can see Rishi being axed before the election is if they can somehow find a way to get Boris back into Parliament.
    For a change of leader to be worth while, 3 things need to happen:

    1) Rishi needs to go quietly or for there to be a clean coup. The worst thing is there is a VOC, which fails and Rishi limps on wounded
    2) There needs to be a quick coronation with the party rallying around one person. Hard to see who can unite all the squabbling factions
    3) The public need to be willing to give new leader a fair chance. I just can't see any potential new leader being able to turn this around. if anything, the nation becomes a laughing stock with yet another PM and the public wouldn't like that.

    In my view any coup risks making things worse. What the Tories need to do is create a ceasefire between the different factions and find a way to unite. Maybe bring Boris back in some form (Lord Johnson?) or maybe Cummings, if he would come back. Otherwise they have to suck it up, try and save 200-250 seats and rebuild in opposition.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,231

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    I thought plotters were bidding to install Mordaunt? Clearly they can't even get that right
    Why would Kemi even want this? Better to be LOTO after a defeat
    Tory MPs are planning to make a musical appeal:

    Oh, when we walk, it always feels so nice
    And when we talk, who needs Richard Tice?
    Kemi, Kemi, can we be led by you?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,037

    Thank you to Isam for un-flagging 3 out of his 4 malicious troll-flags. A bit disappointed he couldn't bring himself to unflag the first one despite it being a curt but genuine response to his post.

    I only did the first two and I unflagged one of them. Stop banging on about it
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,976

    Scott_xP said:

    Well now...

    @DavidMDrucker
    NEWS: Republican National Committee reviewing a draft resolution that if approved would declare TRUMP the party’s presumptive 2024 nominee even as @NikkiHaley wages a vigorous campaign against the frontrunner.

    https://t.co/rl5aiQ90ap

    It is going to be absolutely hilarious if SCOTUS disqualify him.
    He can become President of the True American States: Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Virginia, Georgia, et al.
    American Patriots (n) - People who wish America's enemies had won the Civil War and World War Two.
    The fashion for conflating the South with the Nazis is one of the reasons why the US is becoming so volatile and ceasing to function as a united polity.

    It implies that the US of Reagan and Clinton had monuments to the equivalents of Hitler and Göring.
    It did. It's a shame they took so long to realise it.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,203

    Scott_xP said:

    Well now...

    @DavidMDrucker
    NEWS: Republican National Committee reviewing a draft resolution that if approved would declare TRUMP the party’s presumptive 2024 nominee even as @NikkiHaley wages a vigorous campaign against the frontrunner.

    https://t.co/rl5aiQ90ap

    It is going to be absolutely hilarious if SCOTUS disqualify him.
    He can become President of the True American States: Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Virginia, Georgia, et al.
    American Patriots (n) - People who wish America's enemies had won the Civil War and World War Two.
    The fashion for conflating the South with the Nazis is one of the reasons why the US is becoming so volatile and ceasing to function as a united polity.

    It implies that the US of Reagan and Clinton had monuments to the equivalents of Hitler and Göring.
    Yes, and? The comparison seems kind of reasonable, as both the antebellum South and Nazi Germany were built on the idea of racial superiority, brutal exploitation and violence, were intent on exporting their philosophy to neighbouring territories, had a hideously self-pitying victim complex, and ultimately could only be defeated by gruelling all-out war.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,939

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    Raising the threshold required to oust the leader seems sensible, especially when the party is in government.

    Liz to the rescue (yeah right 😂 )

    Olly who?

    Why on earth would Kemi want to ruin her reputation by taking on this rabble before the election? Much better to wait until after the drubbing and then become LOTO.

    The only way I can see Rishi being axed before the election is if they can somehow find a way to get Boris back into Parliament.
    Literally anyone would be better than Sunak. His premiership has been like watching a disastrous train wreck unfold in slow motion, unable to do anything about it.

    It was blindingly obvious he was an entitled useless talent-vacuum, the people who ramped him are idiots without the common sense they were born with.
    Well, if I'd had my way it would have been lovely Penny4Leader but Con made their bed and now they'll have to lie in it!

    Perhaps they'll choose more wisely next time... ;)
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,203
    Scott_xP said:

    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.

    Britain has suspended negotiations for a multibillion pound trade deal with Canada in an acrimonious row over cheese.

    Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, told her Canadian counterpart that she could see no point in the talks continuing after Ottawa imposed a 245 per cent tariff on British stilton, cheddar and other cheese imports at the start of the month.

    @DavidGauke
    So we haven’t got a Canada-style free trade agreement with Canada?
    I thought all these Brexit trade deals were going to be a brie-ze.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    The best option open to Sunak is to call the GE. Better to lead the party to an honourable defeat ( and who know outperform expectations), than go for an early Truss defenestration.
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,533
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    Raising the threshold required to oust the leader seems sensible, especially when the party is in government.

    Liz to the rescue (yeah right 😂 )

    Olly who?

    Why on earth would Kemi want to ruin her reputation by taking on this rabble before the election? Much better to wait until after the drubbing and then become LOTO.

    The only way I can see Rishi being axed before the election is if they can somehow find a way to get Boris back into Parliament.
    Absolutely no reason for a Tory in a rock solid safe seat to want to be leader/PM now. Badenoch and Braverman should sit tight. Their best chance is after the GE.

    Mordaunt might take it. She’s got a decent chance of losing her seat anyway, might not be a terrible gig to get for say 6 months. If she got a half decent loss out of it she might even get a couple of years of LOTO on the CV.

    The whole thing is ludicrous though.

  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,657
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    Raising the threshold required to oust the leader seems sensible, especially when the party is in government.

    Liz to the rescue (yeah right 😂 )

    Olly who?

    Why on earth would Kemi want to ruin her reputation by taking on this rabble before the election? Much better to wait until after the drubbing and then become LOTO.

    The only way I can see Rishi being axed before the election is if they can somehow find a way to get Boris back into Parliament.
    Literally anyone would be better than Sunak. His premiership has been like watching a disastrous train wreck unfold in slow motion, unable to do anything about it.

    It was blindingly obvious he was an entitled useless talent-vacuum, the people who ramped him are idiots without the common sense they were born with.
    Well, if I'd had my way it would have been lovely Penny4Leader but Con made their bed and now they'll have to lie in it!

    Perhaps they'll choose more wisely next time... ;)
    I was a big Penny fan. She always fluffs the big occasions though. The first leadership election where she went through it looking like a crumpled sack of tears. The second where she disappeared - she could have done some sort of deal with Bojo (and for letting SUNK in she got Leader of the House again), then the third opportunity, her speech at the Conference, and we all know how that went. I am weary of her having any more chances, she doesn't seal the deal.
  • Options
    Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 87
    edited January 25
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sunak is toast (before the election) isn’t he?

    He's toast already.
    Maybe - but surely to god the Conservative Party can’t have another leadership change? At least let Prime Minister Sunak drag it out to an election hammering. For a while the politics of Belgium has looked like a model of stability and good sense compared to the UK. Whatever happened to FPTP and strong government?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,657
    I and my Betfair account would like Jake Berry to be the next Tory leader. You can get him as next leader but not as PM.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,939

    . I am weary of her having any more chances, she doesn't seal the deal.

    I thought you said literally anybody would be better than Sunak?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,037
    Was just thinking earlier how I couldn’t remember my MPs name. Turned on QT and there he is
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,657
    GIN1138 said:

    . I am weary of her having any more chances, she doesn't seal the deal.

    I thought you said literally anybody would be better than Sunak?
    She would be better than him once actually in place - what I mean is I don't see a route for it to happen that doesn't involve her doing her Tim Henman at Wimbledon impression.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,554
    UK says Emirates-backed stake in Vodafone poses national security risk

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/25/emirates-backed-stake-vodafone-security-risk-uae-uk-government


    So... what about UAE plan to buy the Telegraph?

  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,657

    UK says Emirates-backed stake in Vodafone poses national security risk

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/25/emirates-backed-stake-vodafone-security-risk-uae-uk-government


    So... what about UAE plan to buy the Telegraph?

    And not having the capacity to make armaments-grade steel.
  • Options
    Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 87
    edited January 25

    Absolutely no reason for a Tory in a rock solid safe seat to want to be leader/PM now. Badenoch and Braverman should sit tight. Their best chance is after the GE.

    Mordaunt might take it. She’s got a decent chance of losing her seat anyway, might not be a terrible gig to get for say 6 months. If she got a half decent loss out of it she might even get a couple of years of LOTO on the CV.

    The whole thing is ludicrous though.

    I think, aside from all being Women, all three were South London (Southwark/Lambeth mainly) Tories. Badenoch even took a run at Brixton. A decisive shift from the Notting Hill set!
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,262

    Scott_xP said:

    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.

    Britain has suspended negotiations for a multibillion pound trade deal with Canada in an acrimonious row over cheese.

    Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, told her Canadian counterpart that she could see no point in the talks continuing after Ottawa imposed a 245 per cent tariff on British stilton, cheddar and other cheese imports at the start of the month.

    @DavidGauke
    So we haven’t got a Canada-style free trade agreement with Canada?
    Canada’s answer to Liz Truss must be delighted at that tariff policy.
    Canada's support for their dairy industry is legendary, but must have decreased in recent years. When I were a lad, UK supermarkets were full of Canadian cheddar, alongside British and Irish; no more.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.

    Britain has suspended negotiations for a multibillion pound trade deal with Canada in an acrimonious row over cheese.

    Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, told her Canadian counterpart that she could see no point in the talks continuing after Ottawa imposed a 245 per cent tariff on British stilton, cheddar and other cheese imports at the start of the month.

    @DavidGauke
    So we haven’t got a Canada-style free trade agreement with Canada?
    Canada’s answer to Liz Truss must be delighted at that tariff policy.
    Canada's support for their dairy industry is legendary, but must have decreased in recent years. When I were a lad, UK supermarkets were full of Canadian cheddar, alongside British and Irish; no more.
    That is a disgrace.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,262
    Jonathan said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.

    Britain has suspended negotiations for a multibillion pound trade deal with Canada in an acrimonious row over cheese.

    Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, told her Canadian counterpart that she could see no point in the talks continuing after Ottawa imposed a 245 per cent tariff on British stilton, cheddar and other cheese imports at the start of the month.

    @DavidGauke
    So we haven’t got a Canada-style free trade agreement with Canada?
    Canada’s answer to Liz Truss must be delighted at that tariff policy.
    Canada's support for their dairy industry is legendary, but must have decreased in recent years. When I were a lad, UK supermarkets were full of Canadian cheddar, alongside British and Irish; no more.
    That is a disgrace.
    That it's no longer competitive, or that it ever was?
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,976

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    Raising the threshold required to oust the leader seems sensible, especially when the party is in government.

    Liz to the rescue (yeah right 😂 )

    Olly who?

    Why on earth would Kemi want to ruin her reputation by taking on this rabble before the election? Much better to wait until after the drubbing and then become LOTO.

    The only way I can see Rishi being axed before the election is if they can somehow find a way to get Boris back into Parliament.
    Literally anyone would be better than Sunak. His premiership has been like watching a disastrous train wreck unfold in slow motion, unable to do anything about it.

    It was blindingly obvious he was an entitled useless talent-vacuum, the people who ramped him are idiots without the common sense they were born with.
    Well, if I'd had my way it would have been lovely Penny4Leader but Con made their bed and now they'll have to lie in it!

    Perhaps they'll choose more wisely next time... ;)
    I was a big Penny fan. She always fluffs the big occasions though. The first leadership election where she went through it looking like a crumpled sack of tears. The second where she disappeared - she could have done some sort of deal with Bojo (and for letting SUNK in she got Leader of the House again), then the third opportunity, her speech at the Conference, and we all know how that went. I am weary of her having any more chances, she doesn't seal the deal.
    She didn’t fluff carrying the sword! That’s one big occasion she got right.

    Of course, you can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just ’cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,976

    UK says Emirates-backed stake in Vodafone poses national security risk

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/25/emirates-backed-stake-vodafone-security-risk-uae-uk-government


    So... what about UAE plan to buy the Telegraph?

    Clearly Vodafone is rather more important to the fabric of this country than the Telegraph.
  • Options
    Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 87
    edited January 25
    carnforth said:

    Jonathan said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.

    Britain has suspended negotiations for a multibillion pound trade deal with Canada in an acrimonious row over cheese.

    Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, told her Canadian counterpart that she could see no point in the talks continuing after Ottawa imposed a 245 per cent tariff on British stilton, cheddar and other cheese imports at the start of the month.

    @DavidGauke
    So we haven’t got a Canada-style free trade agreement with Canada?
    Canada’s answer to Liz Truss must be delighted at that tariff policy.
    Canada's support for their dairy industry is legendary, but must have decreased in recent years. When I were a lad, UK supermarkets were full of Canadian cheddar, alongside British and Irish; no more.
    That is a disgrace.
    That it's no longer competitive, or that it ever was?
    I assume the post is a reference to one of the former PM Truss’ memes. Pity Liz Truss she probably spawned more memes than days in number 10,

    Probably should have been written “THAT. IS. A. DIS GRACE”
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,949
    Jonathan said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.

    Britain has suspended negotiations for a multibillion pound trade deal with Canada in an acrimonious row over cheese.

    Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, told her Canadian counterpart that she could see no point in the talks continuing after Ottawa imposed a 245 per cent tariff on British stilton, cheddar and other cheese imports at the start of the month.

    @DavidGauke
    So we haven’t got a Canada-style free trade agreement with Canada?
    Canada’s answer to Liz Truss must be delighted at that tariff policy.
    Canada's support for their dairy industry is legendary, but must have decreased in recent years. When I were a lad, UK supermarkets were full of Canadian cheddar, alongside British and Irish; no more.
    That is a disgrace.
    They should look at

    PORK MARKETS!
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,262

    carnforth said:

    Jonathan said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.

    Britain has suspended negotiations for a multibillion pound trade deal with Canada in an acrimonious row over cheese.

    Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, told her Canadian counterpart that she could see no point in the talks continuing after Ottawa imposed a 245 per cent tariff on British stilton, cheddar and other cheese imports at the start of the month.

    @DavidGauke
    So we haven’t got a Canada-style free trade agreement with Canada?
    Canada’s answer to Liz Truss must be delighted at that tariff policy.
    Canada's support for their dairy industry is legendary, but must have decreased in recent years. When I were a lad, UK supermarkets were full of Canadian cheddar, alongside British and Irish; no more.
    That is a disgrace.
    That it's no longer competitive, or that it ever was?
    I assume the post is a reference to one of the former PM Truss’ memes. Pity Liz Truss she probably spawned more memes than days in number 10,

    Probably should have been written “THAT. IS. A. DIS GRACE”
    As far as I know, cheese is not a pork export!
  • Options
    MJWMJW Posts: 1,398

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sunak is toast (before the election) isn’t he?

    He's toast already.
    Maybe - but surely to god the Conservative Party can’t have another leadership change? At least let Prime Minister Sunak drag it out to an election hammering. For a while the politics of Belgium has looked like a model of stability and good sense compared to the UK. Whatever happened to FPTP and strong government?
    The Conservative Party and Brexit.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,696
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Well now...

    @DavidMDrucker
    NEWS: Republican National Committee reviewing a draft resolution that if approved would declare TRUMP the party’s presumptive 2024 nominee even as @NikkiHaley wages a vigorous campaign against the frontrunner.

    https://t.co/rl5aiQ90ap

    It is going to be absolutely hilarious if SCOTUS disqualify him.
    He can become President of the True American States: Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Virginia, Georgia, et al.
    American Patriots (n) - People who wish America's enemies had won the Civil War and World War Two.
    The fashion for conflating the South with the Nazis is one of the reasons why the US is becoming so volatile and ceasing to function as a united polity.

    It implies that the US of Reagan and Clinton had monuments to the equivalents of Hitler and Göring.
    Not the South, the Confederate traitors.
    President Ford speaking in 1975:

    I am very pleased to sign Senate Joint Resolution 23, restoring posthumously the long overdue, full rights of citizenship to General Robert E. Lee. This legislation corrects a 110-year oversight of American history. It is significant that it is signed at this place.

    Lee's dedication to his native State of Virginia chartered his course for the bitter Civil War years, causing him to reluctantly resign from a distinguished career in the United States Army and to serve as General of the Army of Northern Virginia. He, thus, forfeited his rights to U.S. citizenship.

    Once the war was over, he firmly felt the wounds of the North and South must be bound up. He sought to show by example that the citizens of the South must dedicate their efforts to rebuilding that region of the country as a strong and vital part of the American Union.

    As a soldier, General Lee left his mark on military strategy. As a man, he stood as the symbol of valor and of duty. As an educator, he appealed to reason and learning to achieve understanding and to build a stronger nation. The course he chose after the war became a symbol to all those who had marched with him in the bitter years towards Appomattox.

    General Lee's character has been an example to succeeding generations, making the restoration of his citizenship an event in which every American can take pride.


    https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/speeches/750473.htm
    The lost cause bullshit was still strong back then.
    That the war was about states' rights was still being taught in school.
    "Lies My Teacher Told Me" was still two decades away.
    Gerald Ford's paen to Robert E. Lee was delivered at a time when the President was trying to shore up his support in the South versus Ronald Reagan, at time when the California governor was picking up where Barry Goldwater had left off, as tribune for right-wing conservatism.

    Note that Goldwater > Wallace/Nixon > Reagan progression was common, indeed typical in Dixieland among White voters 1964 to 1980. And it was this sector of the electorate Jerry was trying to sweet talk about Marse Robert.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,041
    edited January 25
    Gosh.
    I see we've gone back full circle to Penny Mordaunt.
    No, no, no.
    The Tories are done till I'm retired.
    Whichever figurehead "leads" dysfunctional, amoral, self-harming anarchy as we get poorer isn't really relevant.
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,980
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Jonathan said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Let's discuss it when it actually has been delivered.

    Britain has suspended negotiations for a multibillion pound trade deal with Canada in an acrimonious row over cheese.

    Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, told her Canadian counterpart that she could see no point in the talks continuing after Ottawa imposed a 245 per cent tariff on British stilton, cheddar and other cheese imports at the start of the month.

    @DavidGauke
    So we haven’t got a Canada-style free trade agreement with Canada?
    Canada’s answer to Liz Truss must be delighted at that tariff policy.
    Canada's support for their dairy industry is legendary, but must have decreased in recent years. When I were a lad, UK supermarkets were full of Canadian cheddar, alongside British and Irish; no more.
    That is a disgrace.
    That it's no longer competitive, or that it ever was?
    I assume the post is a reference to one of the former PM Truss’ memes. Pity Liz Truss she probably spawned more memes than days in number 10,

    Probably should have been written “THAT. IS. A. DIS GRACE”
    As far as I know, cheese is not a pork export!
    Stop talking Britain down. It's all cheese! Or pork! ... Or... beef? Or... waterchestnuts? One or many of these things! Markets! Growth! :: faint untimely grimace and smile ::

    .. continue until killed Queen in curtsy handshake covert ops.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,262
    dixiedean said:

    Gosh.
    I see we've gone back full circle to Penny Mordaunt.
    No, no, no.
    The Tories are done till I'm retired.
    Whatever figurehead "leads* dysfunctional, amoral, self-harming anarchy as we get poorer.

    The inability of the tory party to run the country, given a large majority, is a black mark.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,041
    The fundamental problem with the UK is the Conservative Party
  • Options
    YokesYokes Posts: 1,203
    What are the odds on Haley going on a POTUS run as 3rd party candidate I wonder
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211
    dixiedean said:

    The fundamental problem with the UK is the Conservative Party

    One reason why a Labour government again might be good is to show what a ridiculous statement that is
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,231
    Trump on the border constitutional crisis:

    image
    image
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,431
    edited January 25
    isam said:

    Thank you to Isam for un-flagging 3 out of his 4 malicious troll-flags. A bit disappointed he couldn't bring himself to unflag the first one despite it being a curt but genuine response to his post.

    I only did the first two and I unflagged one of them. Stop banging on about it
    Easy for you to say. I am very rhin skinned so I must concede it has really, really pissed me off. So a massive win for Isam.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211
    Yokes said:

    What are the odds on Haley going on a POTUS run as 3rd party candidate I wonder

    Low, she is more likely to hope Trump loses and then be set for the 2028 GOP nomination
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,976
    edited January 25
    Yokes said:

    What are the odds on Haley going on a POTUS run as 3rd party candidate I wonder

    It wouldn’t do her any good. (Maybe it helps Biden a bit?) If she doesn’t want to support Trump, she can just say she isn’t voting for him but is working hard to get X elected to the Senate and Y to the House etc. Bide her time until the GOP see sense on Trump… but as I think that will take >80 years, maybe that won’t do her any good either.

    How long did it take the Dems to get over the (first*) Civil War?

    * Well, really, the first civil war was the War of Independence as many Americans were loyal to the Crown. So, The Civil War is really the 2nd.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,554
    HYUFD said:

    Yokes said:

    What are the odds on Haley going on a POTUS run as 3rd party candidate I wonder

    Low, she is more likely to hope Trump loses and then be set for the 2028 GOP nomination
    Yep.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,949
    edited January 25
    Brilliant programe on Channel 4 on the miners strike. Well worth catching.

    What a different country we were 40 years ago. A lot thinner too.
  • Options
    YokesYokes Posts: 1,203

    Yokes said:

    What are the odds on Haley going on a POTUS run as 3rd party candidate I wonder

    It wouldn’t do her any good. (Maybe it helps Biden a bit?) If she doesn’t want to support Trump, she can just say she isn’t voting for him but is working hard to get X elected to the Senate and Y to the House etc. Bide her time until the GOP see sense on Trump… but as I think that will take >80 years, maybe that won’t do her any good either.
    Haley has no political future for at least 4 to 8 years anyway, she has and wont have an elected position, she wont be in a cabinet and I suspect theres money out there for someone credible to help stop Trump. Its pure spoiler but shes one of the few with profile to be credible. There may be others but they arent visible right now.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,633

    Trump on the border constitutional crisis:

    image
    image

    At least he's learnt how to turn the Caps Lock off.
    But he's still to learn that only sentences begin with a capital letter, except for names/proper nouns.
    Which doesn't apply to 'Rapidly Begin', to give just one of many examples.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,554

    Trump on the border constitutional crisis:

    image
    image

    I say again. If americans elect Trump 2.0 they will not get him out until he dies.

    No way is he only doing one last (second) term and then retiring to golf.

    He will tear the whole damn edifice down before he leaves the oval office again.

    Indeed, and here is my prediction - he will build a NEW WHITE HOUSE. Ten times bigger. Far more gold and bling.

    It will be MASSIVE. And actually fit for a PRESIDENT.

    You read it here first folks. :smiley:

  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,108



    Trump on the border constitutional crisis:

    image
    image

    I say again. If americans elect Trump 2.0 they will not get him out until he dies.

    No way is he only doing one last (second) term and then retiring to golf.

    He will tear the whole damn edifice down before he leaves the oval office again.

    Indeed, and here is my prediction - he will build a NEW WHITE HOUSE. Ten times bigger. Far more gold and bling.

    It will be MASSIVE. And actually fit for a PRESIDENT.

    You read it here first folks. :smiley:

    I bet with you now that he will be out after 4 years if he wins.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Andy_JS said:



    Trump on the border constitutional crisis:

    image
    image

    I say again. If americans elect Trump 2.0 they will not get him out until he dies.

    No way is he only doing one last (second) term and then retiring to golf.

    He will tear the whole damn edifice down before he leaves the oval office again.

    Indeed, and here is my prediction - he will build a NEW WHITE HOUSE. Ten times bigger. Far more gold and bling.

    It will be MASSIVE. And actually fit for a PRESIDENT.

    You read it here first folks. :smiley:

    I bet with you now that he will be out after 4 years if he wins.
    Don Jnr?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,186
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    🗞️ Plan to change 1922 rules to require massive 174 letters to oust Sunak — as PM faces another hell week

    🗞️ Truss stepped in to kill Clarke putsch

    🗞️ Olly Robbins return?

    🗞️ And I reveal plotters bid to install Kemi in May - with election on 12 Dec

    Raising the threshold required to oust the leader seems sensible, especially when the party is in government.

    Liz to the rescue (yeah right 😂 )

    Olly who?

    Why on earth would Kemi want to ruin her reputation by taking on this rabble before the election? Much better to wait until after the drubbing and then become LOTO.

    The only way I can see Rishi being axed before the election is if they can somehow find a way to get Boris back into Parliament.
    Bad Enoch? She has been pisspoor as a minister - utterly invisible.

    Can someone - anyone?!? - explain the appeal of this rank nonentity?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,108
    Foxy said:

    Brilliant programe on Channel 4 on the miners strike. Well worth catching.

    What a different country we were 40 years ago. A lot thinner too.

    How much of that was to do with smoking?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,554
    Andy_JS said:



    Trump on the border constitutional crisis:

    image
    image

    I say again. If americans elect Trump 2.0 they will not get him out until he dies.

    No way is he only doing one last (second) term and then retiring to golf.

    He will tear the whole damn edifice down before he leaves the oval office again.

    Indeed, and here is my prediction - he will build a NEW WHITE HOUSE. Ten times bigger. Far more gold and bling.

    It will be MASSIVE. And actually fit for a PRESIDENT.

    You read it here first folks. :smiley:

    I bet with you now that he will be out after 4 years if he wins.
    Ok. £30 to a charity of each others choice if one or other of us is right?

    Bet is void if he dies in office.

  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,976
    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    What are the odds on Haley going on a POTUS run as 3rd party candidate I wonder

    It wouldn’t do her any good. (Maybe it helps Biden a bit?) If she doesn’t want to support Trump, she can just say she isn’t voting for him but is working hard to get X elected to the Senate and Y to the House etc. Bide her time until the GOP see sense on Trump… but as I think that will take >80 years, maybe that won’t do her any good either.
    Haley has no political future for at least 4 to 8 years anyway, she has and wont have an elected position, she wont be in a cabinet and I suspect theres money out there for someone credible to help stop Trump. Its pure spoiler but shes one of the few with profile to be credible. There may be others but they arent visible right now.
    If she wants Biden to beat Trump, she could just endorse Biden. What does a quixotic independent run achieve? Would that do more to harm Trump, or just take anti-Trump Republican votes away from Biden and thus help Trump?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,554
    Foxy said:

    Brilliant programe on Channel 4 on the miners strike. Well worth catching.

    What a different country we were 40 years ago. A lot thinner too.

    Digging coal in a hot, sweaty tunnel is one way of keeping off the pounds.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211
    edited January 25

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    The fundamental problem with the UK is the Conservative Party

    One reason why a Labour government again might be good is to show what a ridiculous statement that is
    Where would you put this government on the rung of all governments?

    Is this it? Is this the crapest British government of all time?

    Ten years ago the Conservatives dined out at election time on a strong reputation of fiscal conservatism they had built and held over the course of a hundred years. And now that reputation just a pile of smouldering rubble. And no one else did this to them. They did it to themselves.

    The reason why it is the worst government of all time, is because it’s the most confused.com Conservative Party of all time.

    PB contributors who are real Conservatives hate this mess of a government more than anyone else. By going right wing populist, the Tory Psrty deprived Conservatives in the UK of a Conservative Party. Simples.
    This government has cut inflation and the economy is growing.

    In the last 50 years I would rate the 1974-1979 and 2005-2010 Labour governments and the 1970-1974 Heath government as worse than this one.

    Sunak also comes across as more competent than Major pre 1997, even if less effective a campaigner.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,976
    Andy_JS said:



    Trump on the border constitutional crisis:

    image
    image

    I say again. If americans elect Trump 2.0 they will not get him out until he dies.

    No way is he only doing one last (second) term and then retiring to golf.

    He will tear the whole damn edifice down before he leaves the oval office again.

    Indeed, and here is my prediction - he will build a NEW WHITE HOUSE. Ten times bigger. Far more gold and bling.

    It will be MASSIVE. And actually fit for a PRESIDENT.

    You read it here first folks. :smiley:

    I bet with you now that he will be out after 4 years if he wins.
    If he wins, there’s got to be a reasonable chance he doesn’t make it to 4 years by virtue of ill health/death/mental incapacity or impeachment.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    The fundamental problem with the UK is the Conservative Party

    One reason why a Labour government again might be good is to show what a ridiculous statement that is
    Where would you put this government on the rung of all governments?

    Is this it? Is this the crapest British government of all time?

    Ten years ago the Conservatives dined out at election time on a strong reputation of fiscal conservatism they had built and held over the course of a hundred years. And now that reputation just a pile of smouldering rubble. And no one else did this to them. They did it to themselves.

    The reason why it is the worst government of all time, is because it’s the most confused.com Conservative Party of all time.

    PB contributors who are real Conservatives hate this mess of a government more than anyone else. By going right wing populist, the Tory Psrty deprived Conservatives in the UK of a Conservative Party. Simples.
    This government has cut inflation and the economy is growing.

    I would rate the 1974-1979 and 2005-2010 Labour governments and the 1970-1974 Heath government as worse than this one.

    Sunak also comes across as more competent than Major pre 1997, even if less effective a campaigner.
    Wow, that’s amazing. If you raise inflation to double digits and then it falls , should you take credit? Not really.

    It’s a bit like someone coming round to your house, being sick, cleaning part of the mess and asking for praise.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,976
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    The fundamental problem with the UK is the Conservative Party

    One reason why a Labour government again might be good is to show what a ridiculous statement that is
    Where would you put this government on the rung of all governments?

    Is this it? Is this the crapest British government of all time?

    Ten years ago the Conservatives dined out at election time on a strong reputation of fiscal conservatism they had built and held over the course of a hundred years. And now that reputation just a pile of smouldering rubble. And no one else did this to them. They did it to themselves.

    The reason why it is the worst government of all time, is because it’s the most confused.com Conservative Party of all time.

    PB contributors who are real Conservatives hate this mess of a government more than anyone else. By going right wing populist, the Tory Psrty deprived Conservatives in the UK of a Conservative Party. Simples.
    This government has cut inflation and the economy is growing.

    I would rate the 1974-1979 and 2005-2010 Labour governments and the 1970-1974 Heath government as worse than this one.

    Sunak also comes across as more competent than Major pre 1997, even if less effective a campaigner.
    Wow, that’s amazing. If you raise inflation to double digits and then it falls , should you take credit? Not really.

    It’s a bit like someone coming round to your house, being sick, cleaning part of the mess and asking for praise.
    Also, controlling inflation is largely the job of the independent Bank of England, so who even did the cleaning up of the sick?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,186
    edited January 25

    Andy_JS said:



    Trump on the border constitutional crisis:

    image
    image

    I say again. If americans elect Trump 2.0 they will not get him out until he dies.

    No way is he only doing one last (second) term and then retiring to golf.

    He will tear the whole damn edifice down before he leaves the oval office again.

    Indeed, and here is my prediction - he will build a NEW WHITE HOUSE. Ten times bigger. Far more gold and bling.

    It will be MASSIVE. And actually fit for a PRESIDENT.

    You read it here first folks. :smiley:

    I bet with you now that he will be out after 4 years if he wins.
    If he wins, there’s got to be a reasonable chance he doesn’t make it to 4 years by virtue of ill health/death/mental incapacity or impeachment.
    If mental incapacity was a disqualifier he wouldn’t be in the race now.
  • Options
    MJWMJW Posts: 1,398
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    The fundamental problem with the UK is the Conservative Party

    One reason why a Labour government again might be good is to show what a ridiculous statement that is
    Where would you put this government on the rung of all governments?

    Is this it? Is this the crapest British government of all time?

    Ten years ago the Conservatives dined out at election time on a strong reputation of fiscal conservatism they had built and held over the course of a hundred years. And now that reputation just a pile of smouldering rubble. And no one else did this to them. They did it to themselves.

    The reason why it is the worst government of all time, is because it’s the most confused.com Conservative Party of all time.

    PB contributors who are real Conservatives hate this mess of a government more than anyone else. By going right wing populist, the Tory Psrty deprived Conservatives in the UK of a Conservative Party. Simples.
    This government has cut inflation and the economy is growing.

    In the last 50 years I would rate the 1974-1979 and 2005-2010 Labour governments and the 1970-1974 Heath government as worse than this one.

    Sunak also comes across as more competent than Major pre 1997, even if less effective a campaigner.
    Taken as one, over their various iterations, the first government in recorded history that's made children poorer than their parents while giving them fewer rights.

    And Sunak is a part of that like the rest of these appalling people that have ruined Britain since 2010. Britain's Brezhnev's - the party of stagnation and decline. They really do deserve the electoral kicking of a lifetime later this year.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,666
    edited January 25
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    The fundamental problem with the UK is the Conservative Party

    One reason why a Labour government again might be good is to show what a ridiculous statement that is
    Where would you put this government on the rung of all governments?

    Is this it? Is this the crapest British government of all time?

    Ten years ago the Conservatives dined out at election time on a strong reputation of fiscal conservatism they had built and held over the course of a hundred years. And now that reputation just a pile of smouldering rubble. And no one else did this to them. They did it to themselves.

    The reason why it is the worst government of all time, is because it’s the most confused.com Conservative Party of all time.

    PB contributors who are real Conservatives hate this mess of a government more than anyone else. By going right wing populist, the Tory Psrty deprived Conservatives in the UK of a Conservative Party. Simples.
    This government has cut inflation and the economy is growing.

    I would rate the 1974-1979 and 2005-2010 Labour governments and the 1970-1974 Heath government as worse than this one.

    Sunak also comes across as more competent than Major pre 1997, even if less effective a campaigner.
    Wow, that’s amazing. If you raise inflation to double digits and then it falls , should you take credit? Not really.

    It’s a bit like someone coming round to your house, being sick, cleaning part of the mess and asking for praise.
    This government should be re-elected because it is growing the economy? 🫣

    Sunak comes across as more competent than Major. 😶

    What am I missing?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,108
    edited January 25
    Here's that amazing video of Argentinian president Javier Milei seemingly giving his Davos speech in English, thanks to artificial intelligence, even though in reality he only gave it in Spanish.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJoEPRQMBuY

    (Thanks to a writer at the Spectator called Sean Thomas for bringing this to attention).

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ai-just-changed-the-world-again/
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Andy_JS said:

    Here's that amazing video of Argentinian president Javier Milei seemingly giving his Davos speech in English, thanks to artificial intelligence, even though in reality he only gave it in Spanish.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJoEPRQMBuY

    (Thanks to a writer at the Spectator called Sean Thomas for bringing this to attention).

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ai-just-changed-the-world-again/

    An amazing technical achievement. Shame the content is still dismal.
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    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,709

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    The CPS reached the conclusion that “There was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction for murder” in the case of Valdo Colocane
    Does this mean they think the jury would find him Not Guilty if he had been tried for murder? What would have happened to him in that scenario?

    "He believed his mind was being controlled by external influences and that his family was in danger if he didn't obey the voices in his head."

    Chief crown prosecutor for the east midlands Janine McKinney speaking about killer Valdo Calocane.


    https://x.com/skynews/status/1750499918463037823?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    If there had been a trial the jury would have convicted him of manslaughter on the ground of diminished responsibility. Which he pleaded to. The psychiatric evidence was unanimous that his responsibility was at least diminished, so there would have been no lawful basis for a murder conviction.

    He would also have been convicted of attempted murder. The special case of diminished responsibility only applies to murder for historical rather than logical reasons.

    The convictions recognise real and actual culpability, but diminished. The same can apply when, for example, a wife kills an abusive and violent husband when it is not in self defence.
    Given that, whether it was murder or manslaughter, he is very unlikely to ever be freed, wouldn’t it be better to convict him of murder?

    I say this because the bereaved families are furious at it being manslaughter, they feel let down, and a murder verdict doesn’t seem like it would make any practical difference to the guilty man anyway
    The families have been let down, terribly, but not by the manslaughter charge, which as other have noted is likely the right one given the killer's psychotic state. Mental health services and the police have questions to answer about their engagement with the man in the months leading up to the crime, but I expect that at least some of the answer is that they were being asked to do more than their resources allowed.
    They are very unhappy with the CPS that he wasn’t tried for murder

    "True justice has not been served today".

    Mother of victim Barnaby Webber, Emma Webber, says the families were "horrified" that Calocane's manslaughter plea was accepted.

    Live updates: trib.al/kdcG8Ne

    📺 Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233 and YouTube



    https://x.com/skynews/status/1750495214555340868?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Families will always feel like that. If he had been tried for murder, they'd have been disappointed when he was found not guilty. If by some chance he had been found guilty of murder, he'd have got life and spent a week or so in prison before being moved to Broadmoor.

    Grace's father said something along the lines of placing their faith in the courts and judiciary, so he was possibly more accepting of the way things turned out, or was putting on a stiff upper lip.

    So long as he's going away for good, that is what matters.
    I'm not sure. This is not the first case where opportunities were missed. Colocane was already in the system but fell through the cracks, like Zara Aleena's killer; as did the 2-year-old Bronson Battersby who starved to death last week, as when terrorists like Salman Abedi who bombed the Ariana Grande concert were known to Special Branch or MI5. Our public services are failing and people are dying.
    That’s what happens when too many people prioritise tax cuts over funding our services, in this case social services and security services, sufficiently.
    Its cute that you think tax cuts have been prioritised when this sorry excuse for a Government has put taxes up to the highest in decades.
    No contradiction there. Taxes have gone up enormously for ordinary people, but cut for the super-wealthy.
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    YokesYokes Posts: 1,203

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    What are the odds on Haley going on a POTUS run as 3rd party candidate I wonder

    It wouldn’t do her any good. (Maybe it helps Biden a bit?) If she doesn’t want to support Trump, she can just say she isn’t voting for him but is working hard to get X elected to the Senate and Y to the House etc. Bide her time until the GOP see sense on Trump… but as I think that will take >80 years, maybe that won’t do her any good either.
    Haley has no political future for at least 4 to 8 years anyway, she has and wont have an elected position, she wont be in a cabinet and I suspect theres money out there for someone credible to help stop Trump. Its pure spoiler but shes one of the few with profile to be credible. There may be others but they arent visible right now.
    If she wants Biden to beat Trump, she could just endorse Biden. What does a quixotic independent run achieve? Would that do more to harm Trump, or just take anti-Trump Republican votes away from Biden and thus help Trump?
    The same reason you have no hopers in every presidential race, to be available for an audience who favours them to vote.

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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,562
    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    The fundamental problem with the UK is the Conservative Party

    One reason why a Labour government again might be good is to show what a ridiculous statement that is
    Where would you put this government on the rung of all governments?

    Is this it? Is this the crapest British government of all time?

    Ten years ago the Conservatives dined out at election time on a strong reputation of fiscal conservatism they had built and held over the course of a hundred years. And now that reputation just a pile of smouldering rubble. And no one else did this to them. They did it to themselves.

    The reason why it is the worst government of all time, is because it’s the most confused.com Conservative Party of all time.

    PB contributors who are real Conservatives hate this mess of a government more than anyone else. By going right wing populist, the Tory Psrty deprived Conservatives in the UK of a Conservative Party. Simples.
    This government has cut inflation and the economy is growing.

    In the last 50 years I would rate the 1974-1979 and 2005-2010 Labour governments and the 1970-1974 Heath government as worse than this one.

    Sunak also comes across as more competent than Major pre 1997, even if less effective a campaigner.
    Taken as one, over their various iterations, the first government in recorded history that's made children poorer than their parents while giving them fewer rights.

    And Sunak is a part of that like the rest of these appalling people that have ruined Britain since 2010. Britain's Brezhnev's - the party of stagnation and decline. They really do deserve the electoral kicking of a lifetime later this year.
    ... except that the party that will give them the kicking has no convincing plans to address the stagnation with the possible exception of housebuilding and in fact may well make it worse. Stagnation didn't start in 2010.
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