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Hobson’s Choice? The Subpostmaster issue – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Great header.
  • @Malmesbury

    'You assume that the PO would obey an order from a Minister.'

    If they don't the Government could start sacking the Board, one by one, starting with that waste of space, Nick Read.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,076

    BREAKING:

    Rishi Sunak is holding a full cabinet call at 7.45 this evening

    Ministers believe it’s about UK and US military strikes against the Houthis in Yemen

    Move has been heavily telegraphed by Grant Shapps and by senior figures in the US. It is thought UK aircraft and Navy ships could take part

    There was a Cobra emergency meeting of senior ministers this morning followed by a meeting of the National Security Council.

    Sounds like things are moving quickly….


    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1745511427903811772

    Potential boost for Sunak and Biden?

    A lot of people still like the early part of wars where we're just bombing the bad guys...
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058

    Brexit: New report suggests UK £311bn worse off by 2035 due to leaving EU
    The report came up with a scenario for growth if the UK had stayed inside the EU, and compared it to forecasts the Office for Budget Responsibility made in March last year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-new-report-suggests-uk-311bn-worse-off-by-2035-due-to-leaving-eu-13046256

    Still, good news about the blue passports!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    edited January 11

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Excerpt from impressive (in one sense) testimony of Stephen Bradshaw, Post Office Investigator

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbCZAXLwTgw
  • Brexit: New report suggests UK £311bn worse off by 2035 due to leaving EU
    The report came up with a scenario for growth if the UK had stayed inside the EU, and compared it to forecasts the Office for Budget Responsibility made in March last year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-new-report-suggests-uk-311bn-worse-off-by-2035-due-to-leaving-eu-13046256


    "The scenario which included the UK in the EU used an E3ME model, which is used transnationally for forecasting. It includes data from UN, OECD, World Bank, IMF, the ONS and Eurostat.
    "

    A bollocks model then.
    Yep, if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,076
    On topic, I agree entirely.

    The legal system failed. Sometimes, when a failure is so egregious and longstanding, the only way to deliver justice is by breaking the normal rules.

    And there should be lots of reflection on how to stop similar miscarriages of justice from occuring.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412

    BREAKING:

    Rishi Sunak is holding a full cabinet call at 7.45 this evening

    Ministers believe it’s about UK and US military strikes against the Houthis in Yemen

    Move has been heavily telegraphed by Grant Shapps and by senior figures in the US. It is thought UK aircraft and Navy ships could take part

    There was a Cobra emergency meeting of senior ministers this morning followed by a meeting of the National Security Council.

    Sounds like things are moving quickly….


    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1745511427903811772

    Does parliament need to give approval before we attack another sovereign state?
    They're not a sovereign state I don't think. It would be nice if there were some form of token discussion before we begin bombing someone though.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,396
    Ratters said:

    On topic, I agree entirely.

    The legal system failed. Sometimes, when a failure is so egregious and longstanding, the only way to deliver justice is by breaking the normal rules.

    And there should be lots of reflection on how to stop similar miscarriages of justice from occuring.

    Stop believing that computers cannot be wrong would be a start. Stop the PO being able to prosecute would be next. And then prosecute anyone in the PO who knew that the prosecutions they brought were based on lies.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,871

    GIN1138 said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    2024 to 2029 is going to be fun on here - Will make the Brexit Wars look like a tea party! 😂
    In the same way Boris's 2019 coalition dissolved quickly in all directions, we could find exactly the same for Starmer's 2024 one.
    To be fair, the early stages of the 2019-24 Parliament were unique - not many incoming Governments have had to deal with a full scale health crisis within weeks of taking office. Indeed, the Government maintained and even increased support during the actual lockdown phases of the pandemic and have lost support as the consequences and its own actions have come out.

    Absent the pandemic, it's probable the Johnson Government would have had a midterm trough (most Governments do) but I suspect Boris Johnson would still be Prime Minister. The pandemic and its consequences continue to echo through the economy and politics.

    As to what will happen after a 2024 Labour election win? I suspect a honeymoon into 2025 as falling interest rates, falling inflation and a general feelgood about being rid of the Conservatives and their supine followers makes everyone's Christmas merry and their New Year happy.

    What will be interesting in 2025 is where the disillusioned Labour supporters go - back to the Conservatives? I'm not sure - the Tories will be in the midst of their own soul searching so the initial beneficiaries could be the LDs and Reform - the biggest question for me after the election is whether Reform will make any attmept to supplant the Conservatives on the centre right or whether they will go the other route and seek to supplant the Conservatives from within.

    I'm also interested to see if anyone on the political Left goes down the Wagenknecht route and sets up an anti-immigration culturally conservative socialist party (which could do very well). It's a gap in politics as social democracy is more internationalist and "traditional" Labour had a distinct anti-immigrant authoritarian aspect - think Jack Straw. Is there a Wagneknecht on the Labour side and could such a group counter Reform whose politics, beyond its immigrant stance, are far from clear.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068

    BREAKING:

    Rishi Sunak is holding a full cabinet call at 7.45 this evening

    Ministers believe it’s about UK and US military strikes against the Houthis in Yemen

    Move has been heavily telegraphed by Grant Shapps and by senior figures in the US. It is thought UK aircraft and Navy ships could take part

    There was a Cobra emergency meeting of senior ministers this morning followed by a meeting of the National Security Council.

    Sounds like things are moving quickly….


    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1745511427903811772

    Does parliament need to give approval before we attack another sovereign state?
    No. it's within the remit of the PM. Parliamentary approval has become a tradition in recent years but it's not formally required. Thatcher sent the Falklands task force via orders-in-council and three Privy Councillors: herself, Norman Tebbit and (as Minister of Defence) John Nott. The Parliamentary debate came later.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,703
    Britain and the US are preparing to strike against the Houthis in Yemen to protect shipping in the Red Sea, it is understood.

    Cabinet ministers have been invited to a joint call at 7.45pm on Thursday to discuss the crisis. UK aircraft and Royal Navy ships could take part in any action.

    Telegraph live blog
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Ratters said:

    On topic, I agree entirely.

    The legal system failed. Sometimes, when a failure is so egregious and longstanding, the only way to deliver justice is by breaking the normal rules.

    And there should be lots of reflection on how to stop similar miscarriages of justice from occuring.

    Stop believing that computers cannot be wrong would be a start. Stop the PO being able to prosecute would be next. And then prosecute anyone in the PO who knew that the prosecutions they brought were based on lies.
    How anyone who ever watched a "Star Trek" episode could EVER conclude that "computers cannot be wrong" makes the slightest sense, legally or otherwise, blows my cotton-pickin' mind.

    Problem with American legal education appears to be, too many shysters get schooled in becoming even better shysters; but bit LESS so for judges (at least lower courts)

    Problem with British (at least English) legal education seems to me to be, lack of exposure to actual real world beyond whatever brief is thrown their direction; but way MORE so for judges (at all levels).
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,871

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    It's interesting to see the "scrutiny" of Starmer compared to the scrutiny of Boris Johnson whose own character flaws were considered a positive "it's just Boris being Boris" as those in the ditch with him would say as their idol floundered.

    I'm no Tory but I don't have a strong view on Starmer - perhaps the election campaign will inform but I doubt it. He is desperately trying to reassure the recent adherents to his voting coalition he is no ideological threat to the broadly social democratic concensus (which I know many on here despise with a healthy passion). That's the thing - he doesn't inspire but then again he doesn't threaten and sometimes that's enough.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,408
    stodge said:

    GIN1138 said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    2024 to 2029 is going to be fun on here - Will make the Brexit Wars look like a tea party! 😂
    In the same way Boris's 2019 coalition dissolved quickly in all directions, we could find exactly the same for Starmer's 2024 one.
    To be fair, the early stages of the 2019-24 Parliament were unique - not many incoming Governments have had to deal with a full scale health crisis within weeks of taking office. Indeed, the Government maintained and even increased support during the actual lockdown phases of the pandemic and have lost support as the consequences and its own actions have come out.

    Absent the pandemic, it's probable the Johnson Government would have had a midterm trough (most Governments do) but I suspect Boris Johnson would still be Prime Minister. The pandemic and its consequences continue to echo through the economy and politics.

    As to what will happen after a 2024 Labour election win? I suspect a honeymoon into 2025 as falling interest rates, falling inflation and a general feelgood about being rid of the Conservatives and their supine followers makes everyone's Christmas merry and their New Year happy.

    What will be interesting in 2025 is where the disillusioned Labour supporters go - back to the Conservatives? I'm not sure - the Tories will be in the midst of their own soul searching so the initial beneficiaries could be the LDs and Reform - the biggest question for me after the election is whether Reform will make any attmept to supplant the Conservatives on the centre right or whether they will go the other route and seek to supplant the Conservatives from within.

    I'm also interested to see if anyone on the political Left goes down the Wagenknecht route and sets up an anti-immigration culturally conservative socialist party (which could do very well). It's a gap in politics as social democracy is more internationalist and "traditional" Labour had a distinct anti-immigrant authoritarian aspect - think Jack Straw. Is there a Wagneknecht on the Labour side and could such a group counter Reform whose politics, beyond its immigrant stance, are far from clear.
    Your last paragraph is very interesting.

    I don't know how that would play out.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,567

    Excerpt from impressive (in one sense) testimony of Stephen Bradshaw, Post Office Investigator

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbCZAXLwTgw

    Sorry is such a difficult word...

    In all seriousness, that was quite something.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,815
    Chris said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The thing I am really waiting for is how Starmer eats a bacon sarnie.
    He'd instantly be accused of anti-semitism.
    And Islamophobia!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 11
    stodge said:

    GIN1138 said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    2024 to 2029 is going to be fun on here - Will make the Brexit Wars look like a tea party! 😂
    In the same way Boris's 2019 coalition dissolved quickly in all directions, we could find exactly the same for Starmer's 2024 one.
    To be fair, the early stages of the 2019-24 Parliament were unique - not many incoming Governments have had to deal with a full scale health crisis within weeks of taking office. Indeed, the Government maintained and even increased support during the actual lockdown phases of the pandemic and have lost support as the consequences and its own actions have come out.

    Absent the pandemic, it's probable the Johnson Government would have had a midterm trough (most Governments do) but I suspect Boris Johnson would still be Prime Minister. The pandemic and its consequences continue to echo through the economy and politics.

    As to what will happen after a 2024 Labour election win? I suspect a honeymoon into 2025 as falling interest rates, falling inflation and a general feelgood about being rid of the Conservatives and their supine followers makes everyone's Christmas merry and their New Year happy.

    What will be interesting in 2025 is where the disillusioned Labour supporters go - back to the Conservatives? I'm not sure - the Tories will be in the midst of their own soul searching so the initial beneficiaries could be the LDs and Reform - the biggest question for me after the election is whether Reform will make any attmept to supplant the Conservatives on the centre right or whether they will go the other route and seek to supplant the Conservatives from within.

    I'm also interested to see if anyone on the political Left goes down the Wagenknecht route and sets up an anti-immigration culturally conservative socialist party (which could do very well). It's a gap in politics as social democracy is more internationalist and "traditional" Labour had a distinct anti-immigrant authoritarian aspect - think Jack Straw. Is there a Wagneknecht on the Labour side and could such a group counter Reform whose politics, beyond its immigrant stance, are far from clear.
    Maurice Glasman style Blue Labour. But Sir Keir is dipping his toe into that a bit anyway I think. I can’t see why he would be a bad PM, he has pulled the Labour Party back from the brink, even if he’s had to shapeshift and tell a few porkies to do so

    I can’t help but see this era of Boris/Rishi/Leave vs Starmer/Remain as Axelrod vs Chuck in Bilions.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    stodge said:

    GIN1138 said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    2024 to 2029 is going to be fun on here - Will make the Brexit Wars look like a tea party! 😂
    In the same way Boris's 2019 coalition dissolved quickly in all directions, we could find exactly the same for Starmer's 2024 one.
    To be fair, the early stages of the 2019-24 Parliament were unique - not many incoming Governments have had to deal with a full scale health crisis within weeks of taking office. Indeed, the Government maintained and even increased support during the actual lockdown phases of the pandemic and have lost support as the consequences and its own actions have come out.

    Absent the pandemic, it's probable the Johnson Government would have had a midterm trough (most Governments do) but I suspect Boris Johnson would still be Prime Minister. The pandemic and its consequences continue to echo through the economy and politics.

    As to what will happen after a 2024 Labour election win? I suspect a honeymoon into 2025 as falling interest rates, falling inflation and a general feelgood about being rid of the Conservatives and their supine followers makes everyone's Christmas merry and their New Year happy.

    What will be interesting in 2025 is where the disillusioned Labour supporters go - back to the Conservatives? I'm not sure - the Tories will be in the midst of their own soul searching so the initial beneficiaries could be the LDs and Reform - the biggest question for me after the election is whether Reform will make any attmept to supplant the Conservatives on the centre right or whether they will go the other route and seek to supplant the Conservatives from within.

    I'm also interested to see if anyone on the political Left goes down the Wagenknecht route and sets up an anti-immigration culturally conservative socialist party (which could do very well). It's a gap in politics as social democracy is more internationalist and "traditional" Labour had a distinct anti-immigrant authoritarian aspect - think Jack Straw. Is there a Wagneknecht on the Labour side and could such a group counter Reform whose politics, beyond its immigrant stance, are far from clear.
    This approach was tried in South Africa, in Rand goldmines circa 1920-something, as in immortal cry:
    "White Workers of the World Unite!"

    Over century before, the Workingmen's Party of California campaigned on slogan "The Chinese must go!"
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 11

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Ratters said:

    On topic, I agree entirely.

    The legal system failed. Sometimes, when a failure is so egregious and longstanding, the only way to deliver justice is by breaking the normal rules.

    And there should be lots of reflection on how to stop similar miscarriages of justice from occuring.

    Stop believing that computers cannot be wrong would be a start. Stop the PO being able to prosecute would be next. And then prosecute anyone in the PO who knew that the prosecutions they brought were based on lies.
    How anyone who ever watched a "Star Trek" episode could EVER conclude that "computers cannot be wrong" makes the slightest sense, legally or otherwise, blows my cotton-pickin' mind.
    How anyone who has been sentient in the 21st century could think that computers can't be wrong is incomprehensible.

    Admittedly that does exclude many at the highest levels of government, but one would hope standards are higher in the legal profession.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Chris said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The thing I am really waiting for is how Starmer eats a bacon sarnie.
    He'd instantly be accused of anti-semitism.
    And Islamophobia!
    As logical construct "anti-Semitic" DOES cover the waterfront.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,871

    stodge said:

    GIN1138 said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    2024 to 2029 is going to be fun on here - Will make the Brexit Wars look like a tea party! 😂
    In the same way Boris's 2019 coalition dissolved quickly in all directions, we could find exactly the same for Starmer's 2024 one.
    To be fair, the early stages of the 2019-24 Parliament were unique - not many incoming Governments have had to deal with a full scale health crisis within weeks of taking office. Indeed, the Government maintained and even increased support during the actual lockdown phases of the pandemic and have lost support as the consequences and its own actions have come out.

    Absent the pandemic, it's probable the Johnson Government would have had a midterm trough (most Governments do) but I suspect Boris Johnson would still be Prime Minister. The pandemic and its consequences continue to echo through the economy and politics.

    As to what will happen after a 2024 Labour election win? I suspect a honeymoon into 2025 as falling interest rates, falling inflation and a general feelgood about being rid of the Conservatives and their supine followers makes everyone's Christmas merry and their New Year happy.

    What will be interesting in 2025 is where the disillusioned Labour supporters go - back to the Conservatives? I'm not sure - the Tories will be in the midst of their own soul searching so the initial beneficiaries could be the LDs and Reform - the biggest question for me after the election is whether Reform will make any attmept to supplant the Conservatives on the centre right or whether they will go the other route and seek to supplant the Conservatives from within.

    I'm also interested to see if anyone on the political Left goes down the Wagenknecht route and sets up an anti-immigration culturally conservative socialist party (which could do very well). It's a gap in politics as social democracy is more internationalist and "traditional" Labour had a distinct anti-immigrant authoritarian aspect - think Jack Straw. Is there a Wagneknecht on the Labour side and could such a group counter Reform whose politics, beyond its immigrant stance, are far from clear.
    Your last paragraph is very interesting.

    I don't know how that would play out.
    Neither do I but it seems a possible development in the next Parliament. I'm NOT talking a Corbyn type figure - far from it - but instead a strongly patriotic, culturally conservative figure on the political left (as I say, they used to be called "old" or "traditional" Labour). There was an echo with the "British jobs for British workers" in the Brown administration but this would be more "British services for British people".

    I suspect such a figure would be strongly opposed to foreign aid and immigration but would want better public services and be prepared to raise taxes (especially if they came from foreign owned businesses) to fund them.

    Impractical? Probably and likely economically damaging but potentially very popular.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,567
    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    Do you think Starmer has any questions to answer over this? If not, why not?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,408
    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    So you don't think SKS had any questions to answer then?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,396
    Chris said:

    Ratters said:

    On topic, I agree entirely.

    The legal system failed. Sometimes, when a failure is so egregious and longstanding, the only way to deliver justice is by breaking the normal rules.

    And there should be lots of reflection on how to stop similar miscarriages of justice from occuring.

    Stop believing that computers cannot be wrong would be a start. Stop the PO being able to prosecute would be next. And then prosecute anyone in the PO who knew that the prosecutions they brought were based on lies.
    How anyone who ever watched a "Star Trek" episode could EVER conclude that "computers cannot be wrong" makes the slightest sense, legally or otherwise, blows my cotton-pickin' mind.
    How anyone who has been sentient in the 21st century could think that computers can't be wrong is incomprehensible.

    Admittedly that does exclude many at the highest levels of government, but one would hope standards are higher in the legal profession.
    AIUI there was no requirement for the PO to show where the money had gone that had been ‘stolen’. It was simply assumed that the computer data was correct. Seems astonishing to most of us, but that’s what happened.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Chris said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The thing I am really waiting for is how Starmer eats a bacon sarnie.
    He'd instantly be accused of anti-semitism.
    And Islamophobia!
    No, I reckon he'd be accused of anti-semitism, and still of being a filthy Mooslim-lover.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    So you don't think SKS had any questions to answer then?
    He's answered the questions he needed to answer. Was he aware of any CPS PO prosecutions. No. Should he have been aware of every prosecution (circa 500,000 of them?) during his time as DDP? Again, no - simply not possible.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited January 11

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    Do you think Starmer has any questions to answer over this? If not, why not?
    Maybe.

    Maybe not (see below)

    So one of the suggestions doing the rounds is the CPS prosecutions were where

    I) The guilty party genuinely was guilty and importantly

    II) Branched out to into other crimes like money laundering which the PO couldn’t prosecute

    If this true then Starmer should be safe.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 11

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    Do you think Starmer has any questions to answer over this? If not, why not?

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    So you don't think SKS had any questions to answer then?
    He’s already being asked them, and is moving away from his previous “ultimate responsibility” & “ carry the can for any mistakes” comments

    https://x.com/bbcpolitics/status/1745474925190652034?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Chris said:

    Ratters said:

    On topic, I agree entirely.

    The legal system failed. Sometimes, when a failure is so egregious and longstanding, the only way to deliver justice is by breaking the normal rules.

    And there should be lots of reflection on how to stop similar miscarriages of justice from occuring.

    Stop believing that computers cannot be wrong would be a start. Stop the PO being able to prosecute would be next. And then prosecute anyone in the PO who knew that the prosecutions they brought were based on lies.
    How anyone who ever watched a "Star Trek" episode could EVER conclude that "computers cannot be wrong" makes the slightest sense, legally or otherwise, blows my cotton-pickin' mind.
    How anyone who has been sentient in the 21st century could think that computers can't be wrong is incomprehensible.

    Admittedly that does exclude many at the highest levels of government, but one would hope standards are higher in the legal profession.
    It's one of those things which everyone knows to be true, but still generally acts like it is not.

    I'm sure at least initially if I was presented by a computer an answer different to what I thought, I'd question myself first.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,873

    Excerpt from impressive (in one sense) testimony of Stephen Bradshaw, Post Office Investigator

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbCZAXLwTgw

    Sorry is such a difficult word...

    In all seriousness, that was quite something.
    If Bradshaw was as uninvolved as he repeatedly said, then the questioner was at best wasting time and at worst trying to bully him into a false admission, just as the Post Office was alleged to have done with SPMs.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    So you don't think SKS had any questions to answer then?
    He's answered the questions he needed to answer. Was he aware of any CPS PO prosecutions. No. Should he have been aware of every prosecution (circa 500,000 of them?) during his time as DDP? Again, no - simply not possible.
    He said 4 million cases apparently. I suppose isam will be here in a few microseconds to suggest the discrepancy in the numbers is suspicious.

    Though it seems a bit unfair if isam is going to suggest Keir Starmer should have been aware of 4 million things, when isam is obsessed by just one ...
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:

    GIN1138 said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    2024 to 2029 is going to be fun on here - Will make the Brexit Wars look like a tea party! 😂
    In the same way Boris's 2019 coalition dissolved quickly in all directions, we could find exactly the same for Starmer's 2024 one.
    To be fair, the early stages of the 2019-24 Parliament were unique - not many incoming Governments have had to deal with a full scale health crisis within weeks of taking office. Indeed, the Government maintained and even increased support during the actual lockdown phases of the pandemic and have lost support as the consequences and its own actions have come out.

    Absent the pandemic, it's probable the Johnson Government would have had a midterm trough (most Governments do) but I suspect Boris Johnson would still be Prime Minister. The pandemic and its consequences continue to echo through the economy and politics.

    As to what will happen after a 2024 Labour election win? I suspect a honeymoon into 2025 as falling interest rates, falling inflation and a general feelgood about being rid of the Conservatives and their supine followers makes everyone's Christmas merry and their New Year happy.

    What will be interesting in 2025 is where the disillusioned Labour supporters go - back to the Conservatives? I'm not sure - the Tories will be in the midst of their own soul searching so the initial beneficiaries could be the LDs and Reform - the biggest question for me after the election is whether Reform will make any attmept to supplant the Conservatives on the centre right or whether they will go the other route and seek to supplant the Conservatives from within.

    I'm also interested to see if anyone on the political Left goes down the Wagenknecht route and sets up an anti-immigration culturally conservative socialist party (which could do very well). It's a gap in politics as social democracy is more internationalist and "traditional" Labour had a distinct anti-immigrant authoritarian aspect - think Jack Straw. Is there a Wagneknecht on the Labour side and could such a group counter Reform whose politics, beyond its immigrant stance, are far from clear.
    Your last paragraph is very interesting.

    I don't know how that would play out.
    Neither do I but it seems a possible development in the next Parliament. I'm NOT talking a Corbyn type figure - far from it - but instead a strongly patriotic, culturally conservative figure on the political left (as I say, they used to be called "old" or "traditional" Labour). There was an echo with the "British jobs for British workers" in the Brown administration but this would be more "British services for British people".

    I suspect such a figure would be strongly opposed to foreign aid and immigration but would want better public services and be prepared to raise taxes (especially if they came from foreign owned businesses) to fund them.

    Impractical? Probably and likely economically damaging but potentially very popular.
    Already happening in Germany
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    The Independent obsessed as well

    “The CPS said on Wednesday night that it prosecuted 11 cases that “involved evidence connected to Horizon” – three resulted in convictions while Sir Keir was in charge.

    It turns the focus of the scandal to the Labour leader, after days of outrage at former Post Office boss Paula Vennells and Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey.

    Labour said Sir Keir was unaware of any cases being prosecuted while he was director of public prosecutions (DPP).

    But he has previously told Sky News that he “carries the can” for mistakes made while he was DPP. It opens the Labour leader up to questions about why he did not intervene in the cases, and attacks over his involvement in the scandal.“

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/post-office-scandal-keir-starmer-b2476524.html
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,628
    edited January 11
    Turns out a Yorkshireman who read Law at Cambridge is one of the real heroes in life and sums up the scum at the Post Office.

    Lord Justice Fraser, the judge who stopped the operator of Horizon system

    Rulings and regulations of man who presided over the Bates and Others v Post Office Ltd case


    As part of the legal wrangling the Post Office lawyers tried to get Lord Fraser taken off the case in a last-ditch attempt to salvage their chances of winning, but failed.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/10/post-office-scandal-horizon-fujitsu-judge-fraser/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,783
    I imagine it has already been mentioned but RIP JPR. For me the memory of his involvement in the famous 1973 Barbarian's game and in particular 'that' try. I have it on video. And that isn't just my opinion, see quote from Wikipedia:

    'It is considered to be one of the best rugby union matches ever played,[1] and featured what has been described as "the greatest try ever".
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549

    Excerpt from impressive (in one sense) testimony of Stephen Bradshaw, Post Office Investigator

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbCZAXLwTgw

    He's been nowhere near the worst witness so far. He's just been unlucky to be the first one after all the publicity.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,367
    I suppose the question, in light of this, is not whether the process is the right one (which given the lack of alternatives it probably is) but whether this should wait for the official end of the inquiry?

    Since it's becoming brutally obvious that no Post Office investigator, technician or manager has ever told the truth on this I suppose it could be argued there isn't much point in waiting for final confirmation, but might it not prejudice any trials later?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    BREAKING:

    Rishi Sunak is holding a full cabinet call at 7.45 this evening

    Ministers believe it’s about UK and US military strikes against the Houthis in Yemen

    Move has been heavily telegraphed by Grant Shapps and by senior figures in the US. It is thought UK aircraft and Navy ships could take part

    There was a Cobra emergency meeting of senior ministers this morning followed by a meeting of the National Security Council.

    Sounds like things are moving quickly….


    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1745511427903811772

    Does parliament need to give approval before we attack another sovereign state?
    They're not a sovereign state I don't think. It would be nice if there were some form of token discussion before we begin bombing someone though.
    I'm wondering if we will ask permission of whoever it is we recognise as the official government there, though I suspect we're not on great terms with whoever that is either.
  • isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    I think his point about not knowing of all the cases is a valid one - after all, how could he know about every prosecution?

    Where it might be an issue is if there were reports at the time questioning the safety of the convictions. If so, it might be argued he should have been more inquisitive and / or questioned the rationale.

    (I think this is one of SKS’ weaknesses - he follows processes and is not a natural ‘out of the box’ thinker).
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Yet another Sovereign Citizen goes on rampage in court
    (YouTube footage shortly)

    New York Times - Trump Rebukes Judge in Court; Judge Tells His Lawyers ‘Control Your Client’
    Donald Trump delivered abrupt remarks in his own defense on the final day of his civil fraud trial, insulting the judge to his face and rebuking the attorney general who brought the case.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    edited January 11
    From the header: For years the criminal justice system has been underfunded. Agreed.

    I would also contend that for years: education, the health service, the police, the immigration service, infrastructure and defence have also been underfunded. I've probably missed a few.

    What's the Tories answer? Tax cuts.

    It's time to face up to reality, we can no longer trying to run first world public services on the cheap. Whichever party wins the next few elections I confidently predict total tax %GDP will be higher in 10 years time than now.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    So you don't think SKS had any questions to answer then?
    He's answered the questions he needed to answer. Was he aware of any CPS PO prosecutions. No. Should he have been aware of every prosecution (circa 500,000 of them?) during his time as DDP? Again, no - simply not possible.
    He said 4 million cases apparently. I suppose isam will be here in a few microseconds to suggest the discrepancy in the numbers is suspicious.

    Though it seems a bit unfair if isam is going to suggest Keir Starmer should have been aware of 4 million things, when isam is obsessed by just one ...
    Somebody’s a Sir Keir fan ❤️
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    Do you think Starmer has any questions to answer over this? If not, why not?
    I haven't seen any here that require an answer.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    isam said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    So you don't think SKS had any questions to answer then?
    He's answered the questions he needed to answer. Was he aware of any CPS PO prosecutions. No. Should he have been aware of every prosecution (circa 500,000 of them?) during his time as DDP? Again, no - simply not possible.
    He said 4 million cases apparently. I suppose isam will be here in a few microseconds to suggest the discrepancy in the numbers is suspicious.

    Though it seems a bit unfair if isam is going to suggest Keir Starmer should have been aware of 4 million things, when isam is obsessed by just one ...
    Somebody’s a Sir Keir fan ❤️
    Pitiful.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    If anyone's got a right to be desperate, it's CUPers all right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    Yet another Sovereign Citizen goes on rampage in court
    (YouTube footage shortly)

    New York Times - Trump Rebukes Judge in Court; Judge Tells His Lawyers ‘Control Your Client’
    Donald Trump delivered abrupt remarks in his own defense on the final day of his civil fraud trial, insulting the judge to his face and rebuking the attorney general who brought the case.

    A case study into how a mental state devolves when people can get away with anything for long enough. A lifetime's worth of grifting and arrogance at play.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 11

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    I think his point about not knowing of all the cases is a valid one - after all, how could he know about every prosecution?

    Where it might be an issue is if there were reports at the time questioning the safety of the convictions. If so, it might be argued he should have been more inquisitive and / or questioned the rationale.

    (I think this is one of SKS’ weaknesses - he follows processes and is not a natural ‘out of the box’ thinker).
    Of course he can’t have known all the cases, how could he have been expected to? I don’t blame him for that. The point is, before this came up, he took credit for ALL cases prosecuted whilst DPP, presumably because none had come back to haunt him since and he thought, because he left a decade ago, none would.

    But now some have. And he’s changed his tune. So he’s going to get a bit of stick
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,873

    From the header: For years the criminal justice system has been underfunded. Agreed.

    I would also contend that for years: education, the health service, the police, the immigration service, infrastructure and defence have also been underfunded. I've probably missed a few.

    What's the Tories answer? Tax cuts.

    It's time to face up to reality, we can no longer trying to run first world public services on the cheap. Whichever party wins the next few elections I confidently predict total tax %GDP will be higher in 10 years time than now.

    Many will be asking how we have simultaneously a record tax take and broken, underfunded public services. Where is all the money going?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    ydoethur said:

    I suppose the question, in light of this, is not whether the process is the right one (which given the lack of alternatives it probably is) but whether this should wait for the official end of the inquiry?

    Since it's becoming brutally obvious that no Post Office investigator, technician or manager has ever told the truth on this I suppose it could be argued there isn't much point in waiting for final confirmation, but might it not prejudice any trials later?

    IANAL of course but I can't see why is should. That the Sub-postmaster trials were unsafe seems unarguable; whether anyone was criminally culpable is a separate matter.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412
    kle4 said:

    BREAKING:

    Rishi Sunak is holding a full cabinet call at 7.45 this evening

    Ministers believe it’s about UK and US military strikes against the Houthis in Yemen

    Move has been heavily telegraphed by Grant Shapps and by senior figures in the US. It is thought UK aircraft and Navy ships could take part

    There was a Cobra emergency meeting of senior ministers this morning followed by a meeting of the National Security Council.

    Sounds like things are moving quickly….


    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1745511427903811772

    Does parliament need to give approval before we attack another sovereign state?
    They're not a sovereign state I don't think. It would be nice if there were some form of token discussion before we begin bombing someone though.
    I'm wondering if we will ask permission of whoever it is we recognise as the official government there, though I suspect we're not on great terms with whoever that is either.
    I expect they'll be delighted. I know extremely little about the conflict between the Yemeni Government and the Houthi rebellion. Only that the Houthi's seem quite keen to chuck rockets at things, and that the Yemeni Government is supported strongly by Saudi Arabia, which is never a ringing endorsement.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    kle4 said:

    Yet another Sovereign Citizen goes on rampage in court
    (YouTube footage shortly)

    New York Times - Trump Rebukes Judge in Court; Judge Tells His Lawyers ‘Control Your Client’
    Donald Trump delivered abrupt remarks in his own defense on the final day of his civil fraud trial, insulting the judge to his face and rebuking the attorney general who brought the case.

    A case study into how a mental state devolves when people can get away with anything for long enough. A lifetime's worth of grifting and arrogance at play.
    What is astonishing is why Trump had to become president for his flagrant criminality over the years to face legal accountability. How many more megamillionaires get away scot free for dodgy business activities?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,815
    isam said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    So you don't think SKS had any questions to answer then?
    He's answered the questions he needed to answer. Was he aware of any CPS PO prosecutions. No. Should he have been aware of every prosecution (circa 500,000 of them?) during his time as DDP? Again, no - simply not possible.
    He said 4 million cases apparently. I suppose isam will be here in a few microseconds to suggest the discrepancy in the numbers is suspicious.

    Though it seems a bit unfair if isam is going to suggest Keir Starmer should have been aware of 4 million things, when isam is obsessed by just one ...
    Somebody’s a Sir Keir fan ❤️
    :innocent:


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    While I am sure the PB legal community will nod their heads sagely about the cuts to the Civil Justice system as mentioned in the header, we do need to look at how these happened. (As the father of a Trainee solicitor, I sagely nod agreement myself).

    Step forward Keir Starmer:

    "Between 2010 and 2016, the CPS lost over 30% of its day-to-day funding, and as a result headcount was 30% lower in 2019 than it had been nine years earlier.

    “We had to cut 25% in three years but we did it in 18 months,” said Afzal. “It wasn’t Keir’s fault, but we had to think, who are our most expensive staff, our most experienced staff, and invite them to leave. Very quickly we were able to reduce budgets no end but of course we lost all that experience overnight.”"

    From an interesting article about other aspects of Starmer's time as DPP.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/21/keir-starmer-cps-analysis

    So a legitimate criticism there, though a hard one for any member of the Coalition to make.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,367

    Yet another Sovereign Citizen goes on rampage in court
    (YouTube footage shortly)

    New York Times - Trump Rebukes Judge in Court; Judge Tells His Lawyers ‘Control Your Client’
    Donald Trump delivered abrupt remarks in his own defense on the final day of his civil fraud trial, insulting the judge to his face and rebuking the attorney general who brought the case.

    He's clearly lost more than his case.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kle4 said:

    BREAKING:

    Rishi Sunak is holding a full cabinet call at 7.45 this evening

    Ministers believe it’s about UK and US military strikes against the Houthis in Yemen

    Move has been heavily telegraphed by Grant Shapps and by senior figures in the US. It is thought UK aircraft and Navy ships could take part

    There was a Cobra emergency meeting of senior ministers this morning followed by a meeting of the National Security Council.

    Sounds like things are moving quickly….


    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1745511427903811772

    Does parliament need to give approval before we attack another sovereign state?
    They're not a sovereign state I don't think. It would be nice if there were some form of token discussion before we begin bombing someone though.
    I'm wondering if we will ask permission of whoever it is we recognise as the official government there, though I suspect we're not on great terms with whoever that is either.
    Government Rishi & Co. need permission from, before releasing the dogs of war (leastways what's available in UK HMG kennels these days) is the United States government.

    Not entirely sure that White House or Pentagon overly-eager to oblige re: Middle East? At least not yet.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,771

    From the header: For years the criminal justice system has been underfunded. Agreed.

    I would also contend that for years: education, the health service, the police, the immigration service, infrastructure and defence have also been underfunded. I've probably missed a few.

    What's the Tories answer? Tax cuts.

    It's time to face up to reality, we can no longer trying to run first world public services on the cheap. Whichever party wins the next few elections I confidently predict total tax %GDP will be higher in 10 years time than now.

    Many will be asking how we have simultaneously a record tax take and broken, underfunded public services. Where is all the money going?
    That's easy - pensions, the NHS and debt interest payments.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,367
    edited January 11

    Turns out a Yorkshireman who read Law at Cambridge is one of the real heroes in life and sums up the scum at the Post Office.

    Lord Justice Fraser, the judge who stopped the operator of Horizon system

    Rulings and regulations of man who presided over the Bates and Others v Post Office Ltd case


    As part of the legal wrangling the Post Office lawyers tried to get Lord Fraser taken off the case in a last-ditch attempt to salvage their chances of winning, but failed.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/10/post-office-scandal-horizon-fujitsu-judge-fraser/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you

    Let's remember that this is the stratagem Trump and his acolytes are employing in several of his cases.

    So, basically, the PO are as bad as a bunch of traitors.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    From the header: For years the criminal justice system has been underfunded. Agreed.

    I would also contend that for years: education, the health service, the police, the immigration service, infrastructure and defence have also been underfunded. I've probably missed a few.

    What's the Tories answer? Tax cuts.

    It's time to face up to reality, we can no longer trying to run first world public services on the cheap. Whichever party wins the next few elections I confidently predict total tax %GDP will be higher in 10 years time than now.

    Many will be asking how we have simultaneously a record tax take and broken, underfunded public services. Where is all the money going?
    1. Pensions triple lock, 2. Debt interest, 3. Increased disability and sickness benefits, 4.Increased cost of social care with an ageing population...

    (3. Is a facet of insufficient mental health care services.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    From the header: For years the criminal justice system has been underfunded. Agreed.

    I would also contend that for years: education, the health service, the police, the immigration service, infrastructure and defence have also been underfunded. I've probably missed a few.

    What's the Tories answer? Tax cuts.

    It's time to face up to reality, we can no longer trying to run first world public services on the cheap. Whichever party wins the next few elections I confidently predict total tax %GDP will be higher in 10 years time than now.

    Many will be asking how we have simultaneously a record tax take and broken, underfunded public services. Where is all the money going?
    This really is the key. Justice has been a lot of false economies, but even areas with more focus serm broken or crap, and if they could fix it they'd have done so by now.

    Labour may have no clue either but that's where oppositions get benefit of the doubt eventually.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Endillion said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Four quick clips of Sir Keir here

    Three from the last year or two, boasting of being the DPP in charge of ALL prosecutions across England & Wales then another, from today, laughing at the idea he could have been expected to know about every prosecution in England & Wales

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745502690472329592?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That makes perfect sense. When I am on call I am in charge of every patient in my speciality that is an inpatient, an Emergency Dept attendance or even anyone that any of the team gives phone advice about.

    That doesn't mean that I know everything about every case, as there is a large team involved with their care, and I only expect the team to discuss with me stuff requiring my input or advice.
    Who's held responsible if one of your team had an issue that required your input or advice and they didn't bring it to your attention?
    Both the individual and myself. That is why I am paid so much - the burden of responsibility.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Turns out a Yorkshireman who read Law at Cambridge is one of the real heroes in life and sums up the scum at the Post Office.

    Lord Justice Fraser, the judge who stopped the operator of Horizon system

    Rulings and regulations of man who presided over the Bates and Others v Post Office Ltd case


    As part of the legal wrangling the Post Office lawyers tried to get Lord Fraser taken off the case in a last-ditch attempt to salvage their chances of winning, but failed.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/10/post-office-scandal-horizon-fujitsu-judge-fraser/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you

    UK needs RICO bad.

    Certainly difficult to imagine any racketeering-influenced and/or corrupt organization acting WITHOUT lawyers in the mix.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214

    From the header: For years the criminal justice system has been underfunded. Agreed.

    I would also contend that for years: education, the health service, the police, the immigration service, infrastructure and defence have also been underfunded. I've probably missed a few.

    What's the Tories answer? Tax cuts.

    It's time to face up to reality, we can no longer trying to run first world public services on the cheap. Whichever party wins the next few elections I confidently predict total tax %GDP will be higher in 10 years time than now.

    Many will be asking how we have simultaneously a record tax take and broken, underfunded public services. Where is all the money going?
    Excellent question. It can't all be the effect of a bulge in the number of pensioners, can it?

    (Linking to the header, do we bung too much cash to capitalist odd-job organisations who never deliver what they promise?)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Foxy said:

    While I am sure the PB legal community will nod their heads sagely about the cuts to the Civil Justice system as mentioned in the header, we do need to look at how these happened. (As the father of a Trainee solicitor, I sagely nod agreement myself).

    Step forward Keir Starmer:

    "Between 2010 and 2016, the CPS lost over 30% of its day-to-day funding, and as a result headcount was 30% lower in 2019 than it had been nine years earlier.

    “We had to cut 25% in three years but we did it in 18 months,” said Afzal. “It wasn’t Keir’s fault, but we had to think, who are our most expensive staff, our most experienced staff, and invite them to leave. Very quickly we were able to reduce budgets no end but of course we lost all that experience overnight.”"

    From an interesting article about other aspects of Starmer's time as DPP.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/21/keir-starmer-cps-analysis

    So a legitimate criticism there, though a hard one for any member of the Coalition to make.

    Did Starmer take away the 30% funding or did George Osborne?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    WillG said:

    kle4 said:

    Yet another Sovereign Citizen goes on rampage in court
    (YouTube footage shortly)

    New York Times - Trump Rebukes Judge in Court; Judge Tells His Lawyers ‘Control Your Client’
    Donald Trump delivered abrupt remarks in his own defense on the final day of his civil fraud trial, insulting the judge to his face and rebuking the attorney general who brought the case.

    A case study into how a mental state devolves when people can get away with anything for long enough. A lifetime's worth of grifting and arrogance at play.
    What is astonishing is why Trump had to become president for his flagrant criminality over the years to face legal accountability. How many more megamillionaires get away scot free for dodgy business activities?
    Most of them.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,606
    Robert Habeck, Germany's Economy Minister and Green politician, believes proceedings to ban the rising AfD opposition party are possible: "You have to collect evidence."

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1745511057802592352
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Foxy said:

    While I am sure the PB legal community will nod their heads sagely about the cuts to the Civil Justice system as mentioned in the header, we do need to look at how these happened. (As the father of a Trainee solicitor, I sagely nod agreement myself).

    Step forward Keir Starmer:

    "Between 2010 and 2016, the CPS lost over 30% of its day-to-day funding, and as a result headcount was 30% lower in 2019 than it had been nine years earlier.

    “We had to cut 25% in three years but we did it in 18 months,” said Afzal. “It wasn’t Keir’s fault, but we had to think, who are our most expensive staff, our most experienced staff, and invite them to leave. Very quickly we were able to reduce budgets no end but of course we lost all that experience overnight.”"

    From an interesting article about other aspects of Starmer's time as DPP.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/21/keir-starmer-cps-analysis

    So a legitimate criticism there, though a hard one for any member of the Coalition to make.

    That is damning. The coalition Government merely set a figure, Starmer personally bungled It.

    Coalition Government 25-0 Starmer
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412

    kle4 said:

    BREAKING:

    Rishi Sunak is holding a full cabinet call at 7.45 this evening

    Ministers believe it’s about UK and US military strikes against the Houthis in Yemen

    Move has been heavily telegraphed by Grant Shapps and by senior figures in the US. It is thought UK aircraft and Navy ships could take part

    There was a Cobra emergency meeting of senior ministers this morning followed by a meeting of the National Security Council.

    Sounds like things are moving quickly….


    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1745511427903811772

    Does parliament need to give approval before we attack another sovereign state?
    They're not a sovereign state I don't think. It would be nice if there were some form of token discussion before we begin bombing someone though.
    I'm wondering if we will ask permission of whoever it is we recognise as the official government there, though I suspect we're not on great terms with whoever that is either.
    I expect they'll be delighted. I know extremely little about the conflict between the Yemeni Government and the Houthi rebellion. Only that the Houthi's seem quite keen to chuck rockets at things, and that the Yemeni Government is supported strongly by Saudi Arabia, which is never a ringing endorsement.
    Apologies for the greengrocer's apostrophe - too late to edit now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Foxy said:

    While I am sure the PB legal community will nod their heads sagely about the cuts to the Civil Justice system as mentioned in the header, we do need to look at how these happened. (As the father of a Trainee solicitor, I sagely nod agreement myself).

    Step forward Keir Starmer:

    "Between 2010 and 2016, the CPS lost over 30% of its day-to-day funding, and as a result headcount was 30% lower in 2019 than it had been nine years earlier.

    “We had to cut 25% in three years but we did it in 18 months,” said Afzal. “It wasn’t Keir’s fault, but we had to think, who are our most expensive staff, our most experienced staff, and invite them to leave. Very quickly we were able to reduce budgets no end but of course we lost all that experience overnight.”"

    From an interesting article about other aspects of Starmer's time as DPP.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/21/keir-starmer-cps-analysis

    So a legitimate criticism there, though a hard one for any member of the Coalition to make.

    Did Starmer take away the 30% funding or did George Osborne?
    The Austerity package in 2010 was agreed across the whole cabinet, so both, and of course the public who voted for it.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    ydoethur said:

    Turns out a Yorkshireman who read Law at Cambridge is one of the real heroes in life and sums up the scum at the Post Office.

    Lord Justice Fraser, the judge who stopped the operator of Horizon system

    Rulings and regulations of man who presided over the Bates and Others v Post Office Ltd case


    As part of the legal wrangling the Post Office lawyers tried to get Lord Fraser taken off the case in a last-ditch attempt to salvage their chances of winning, but failed.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/10/post-office-scandal-horizon-fujitsu-judge-fraser/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you

    Let's remember that this is the stratagem Trump and his acolytes are employing in several of his cases.

    So, basically, the PO are as bad as a bunch of traitors.
    Along with jury tampering, venue fixing is classic organized crime strategy.

    Trump Organization with RNC as subsidiary, is what you might call dis-organized crime.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,367
    isam said:
    That's a somewhat more dogmatic statement than he made.

    Ultimately, it will have to be built because the capacity issues can't be dealt with any other way. But it will probably be built in the most inept way imaginable at vastly inflated cost because the DfT make Marjorie Taylor Greene look sane, intelligent and honest.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,567

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    Do you think Starmer has any questions to answer over this? If not, why not?
    Maybe.

    Maybe not (see below)

    So one of the suggestions doing the rounds is the CPS prosecutions were where

    I) The guilty party genuinely was guilty and importantly

    II) Branched out to into other crimes like money laundering which the PO couldn’t prosecute

    If this true then Starmer should be safe.

    As I asked earlier, how can you know the 'guilty' party is 'genuinely' guilty before a trial? Even if there is a confession, it's hardly as though confessions haven't been garnered incorrectly in the past.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,367

    ydoethur said:

    Turns out a Yorkshireman who read Law at Cambridge is one of the real heroes in life and sums up the scum at the Post Office.

    Lord Justice Fraser, the judge who stopped the operator of Horizon system

    Rulings and regulations of man who presided over the Bates and Others v Post Office Ltd case


    As part of the legal wrangling the Post Office lawyers tried to get Lord Fraser taken off the case in a last-ditch attempt to salvage their chances of winning, but failed.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/10/post-office-scandal-horizon-fujitsu-judge-fraser/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you

    Let's remember that this is the stratagem Trump and his acolytes are employing in several of his cases.

    So, basically, the PO are as bad as a bunch of traitors.
    Along with jury tampering, venue fixing is classic organized crime strategy.

    Trump Organization with RNC as subsidiary, is what you might call dis-organized crime.
    Sir Humphrey has entered the chat!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    isam said:

    The Independent obsessed as well

    “The CPS said on Wednesday night that it prosecuted 11 cases that “involved evidence connected to Horizon” – three resulted in convictions while Sir Keir was in charge.

    It turns the focus of the scandal to the Labour leader, after days of outrage at former Post Office boss Paula Vennells and Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey.

    Labour said Sir Keir was unaware of any cases being prosecuted while he was director of public prosecutions (DPP).

    But he has previously told Sky News that he “carries the can” for mistakes made while he was DPP. It opens the Labour leader up to questions about why he did not intervene in the cases, and attacks over his involvement in the scandal.“

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/post-office-scandal-keir-starmer-b2476524.html

    You are posting day old news as current.

    At least when I smear Starmer it is hot off the press.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Andy_JS said:

    Excerpt from impressive (in one sense) testimony of Stephen Bradshaw, Post Office Investigator

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbCZAXLwTgw

    He's been nowhere near the worst witness so far. He's just been unlucky to be the first one after all the publicity.
    True. Except for fact that he's been attached to PO (like a tick on a dog) since the start of the Horizon debacle.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,567
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    Do you think Starmer has any questions to answer over this? If not, why not?
    I haven't seen any here that require an answer.
    Really? Do you think the CPS make mistakes regarding the post office scandal during his tenure as DPP?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    Britain and the US are preparing to strike against the Houthis in Yemen to protect shipping in the Red Sea, it is understood.

    Cabinet ministers have been invited to a joint call at 7.45pm on Thursday to discuss the crisis. UK aircraft and Royal Navy ships could take part in any action.

    Telegraph live blog

    I want to see Schapps’s face when Chief of Defence Staff trolls him by saying the plan won’t work without the Royal Marines.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/11/general-election-likely-to-take-place-on-14-november-says-george-osborne

    Hmmm... 14 PBers predicted 14 November 24. Which of those is George Osborne, I wonder?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    isam said:

    Four quick clips of Sir Keir here

    Three from the last year or two, boasting of being the DPP in charge of ALL prosecutions across England & Wales then another, from today, laughing at the idea he could have been expected to know about every prosecution in England & Wales

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745502690472329592?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Do you not think this is becoming rather unhealthy . You seem completely obsessed by Starmer .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,367
    boulay said:

    Britain and the US are preparing to strike against the Houthis in Yemen to protect shipping in the Red Sea, it is understood.

    Cabinet ministers have been invited to a joint call at 7.45pm on Thursday to discuss the crisis. UK aircraft and Royal Navy ships could take part in any action.

    Telegraph live blog

    I want to see Schapps’s face
    This is not a sensation I ever feel these days.

    All other considerations aside, I'd be wondering which face he was showing.
  • Glad to see YouGov polling on this most important of subjects.



    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1745536048979960005
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    From the header: For years the criminal justice system has been underfunded. Agreed.

    I would also contend that for years: education, the health service, the police, the immigration service, infrastructure and defence have also been underfunded. I've probably missed a few.

    What's the Tories answer? Tax cuts.

    It's time to face up to reality, we can no longer trying to run first world public services on the cheap. Whichever party wins the next few elections I confidently predict total tax %GDP will be higher in 10 years time than now.

    Many will be asking how we have simultaneously a record tax take and broken, underfunded public services. Where is all the money going?
    A serious political realm would engage at depth with both sides of that question; it is obvious that 'to govern is to choose, to govern well is to choose rightly' is the key question, along with the issue of competence in delivery. This cannot be picked off in micro issues but only dealt with in big principles.

    We are not close to that sort of political debate at the moment.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    Do you think Starmer has any questions to answer over this? If not, why not?
    Maybe.

    Maybe not (see below)

    So one of the suggestions doing the rounds is the CPS prosecutions were where

    I) The guilty party genuinely was guilty and importantly

    II) Branched out to into other crimes like money laundering which the PO couldn’t prosecute

    If this true then Starmer should be safe.

    As I asked earlier, how can you know the 'guilty' party is 'genuinely' guilty before a trial? Even if there is a confession, it's hardly as though confessions haven't been garnered incorrectly in the past.
    As DPP aren't you more or less obliged to take a guilty plea as an admission of guilt?

    The element of coercion would not have been obvious.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,367

    Glad to see YouGov polling on this most important of subjects.



    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1745536048979960005

    That must have been a difficult question for you to answer, given they didn't offer 'feel homicidal whenever I see somebody eating it' as an option.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    Do you think Starmer has any questions to answer over this? If not, why not?
    Maybe.

    Maybe not (see below)

    So one of the suggestions doing the rounds is the CPS prosecutions were where

    I) The guilty party genuinely was guilty and importantly

    II) Branched out to into other crimes like money laundering which the PO couldn’t prosecute

    If this true then Starmer should be safe.

    As I asked earlier, how can you know the 'guilty' party is 'genuinely' guilty before a trial? Even if there is a confession, it's hardly as though confessions haven't been garnered incorrectly in the past.
    As DPP aren't you more or less obliged to take a guilty plea as an admission of guilt?

    The element of coercion would not have been obvious.
    Spiro Agnew was guilty as . . . all get-out, yet HE got to plead nolo contendere.

    ("No contest" for those of us who are NOT Boris Johnson.)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 11
    nico679 said:

    isam said:

    Four quick clips of Sir Keir here

    Three from the last year or two, boasting of being the DPP in charge of ALL prosecutions across England & Wales then another, from today, laughing at the idea he could have been expected to know about every prosecution in England & Wales

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745502690472329592?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Do you not think this is becoming rather unhealthy . You seem completely obsessed by Starmer .
    When I talk about politics it does seem to be about Sir Keir. But I only ever talk about politics on here, so I think it’s under control. I realise I am shouting into the void, he can literally do no wrong. But it is what it is
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,871
    It seems then the Gaza Conflict is if not escalating then spreading.

    The Houthis, supported by the likes of Iran and North Korea, have been trying to interdict shipping in the Red Sea with particular (and largely unsuccessful) emphasis on western shipping.

    Now it seems London and Washington are out of patience and we're going to be seeing pictures of missiles launched and presumably landing on missile batteries and command and control facilities around Sana'a and other parts of North Yemen under Houthi control.

    Whether this can in any way empower the pro-Saudi Republic of Yemen forces in Aden to advance north and re-unite the country I don't know but the suffering of the Yemeni people (not widely reported in the western media) needs to be alleviated.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Glad to see YouGov polling on this most important of subjects.



    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1745536048979960005

    So how many times have you (and terrified underlings at your less-than-tender mercy) pushed THAT button?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    nico679 said:

    isam said:

    Four quick clips of Sir Keir here

    Three from the last year or two, boasting of being the DPP in charge of ALL prosecutions across England & Wales then another, from today, laughing at the idea he could have been expected to know about every prosecution in England & Wales

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745502690472329592?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Do you not think this is becoming rather unhealthy . You seem completely obsessed by Starmer .
    I mean, he is our likely next PM, a bit of attention, even overattention, seems probable.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It's hilarious how some people on here can't abide any criticism of SKS.

    Because he's their man.

    Starmer fails my personal pub test, I admire what he’s achieved with the Labour Party, but he leaves me personally mehhed.

    I just think the attacks are silly.
    The PO attacks on Starmer are very silly, it makes all the posters look very immature and a bit too pointless in their postings. Starmer didn’t know about these cases, and do we know yet how horizon related they even are, so the only attack line is he should have kmown, which, yes, in the land of realism is just plain stupid. UNLESS of course the smoking gun is found that STARMER DID KNOW ABOUT THEM. that would be very different.

    However the Saville question, though still not all that damaging to Starmer overall, is more substantial, because Starmer knew about the file being closed - we take it 2nd hand that made him cross. But it wasn’t reopened.
    The PO attacks on Starmer have disabled one of his goto phrases. “I was DPP” no longer carries the idea of a upright lawman shooting down the baddies, but has ‘locking up postmaster’ connotations

    That was surely the point of it? He’s not going to racing over it, but he’s already less sure footed on his tenure as DPP
    This stuff is just so desperate.
    Do you think Starmer has any questions to answer over this? If not, why not?
    Maybe.

    Maybe not (see below)

    So one of the suggestions doing the rounds is the CPS prosecutions were where

    I) The guilty party genuinely was guilty and importantly

    II) Branched out to into other crimes like money laundering which the PO couldn’t prosecute

    If this true then Starmer should be safe.

    As I asked earlier, how can you know the 'guilty' party is 'genuinely' guilty before a trial? Even if there is a confession, it's hardly as though confessions haven't been garnered incorrectly in the past.
    How do you arrive at that incoherent nonsense?

    The point that TSE makes clearly has nothing to do with pre-ordained guilt or innocence. My understanding is what he suggested in crystal clear English is that cases with a second or third charge were beyond the paygrade and experience/aptitude of the PO. salaried solicitors.

    So if the PO Gumshoes discover Feathers McGraw has a counterfeit currency operation behind his Post Office as a result
    of investigating Horizon irregularities, assistance would be sought from the CPS. Help would be required because a) a low level solicitor wouldn't have a clue how to execute a prosecution and b)such a prosecution is not in the PO private prosecution remit.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,606
    stodge said:

    It seems then the Gaza Conflict is if not escalating then spreading.

    The Houthis, supported by the likes of Iran and North Korea, have been trying to interdict shipping in the Red Sea with particular (and largely unsuccessful) emphasis on western shipping.

    Now it seems London and Washington are out of patience and we're going to be seeing pictures of missiles launched and presumably landing on missile batteries and command and control facilities around Sana'a and other parts of North Yemen under Houthi control.

    Whether this can in any way empower the pro-Saudi Republic of Yemen forces in Aden to advance north and re-unite the country I don't know but the suffering of the Yemeni people (not widely reported in the western media) needs to be alleviated.

    The European dimension is interesting too. France was conspicuously absent from the joint statement signed by the US, UK, Australia and allies last week.
This discussion has been closed.