On topic, I deliberately ignored the news yesterday.
Did Suella Braverman not call this entirely wrong, in that the Pro-Palestine Anti-Israel demo was the more peaceful of the two?
It depends if you're talking in absolute numbers or proportionally. Proportionally, more of the defend-the-cenotaph mob were up for a fight. But there were hardly any of them. In absolute numbers, there were far more violent anti-Israels than anti-anti-Israels.
Those anti-semitic actions that occurred are despicable & I look forward to the perpetrators being prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The black bloc types that launched fireworks at police at the end of the day will no doubt find their collars being felt in due course.
But the Met themselves do seem pretty clear about which group they had the most trouble with.
"But the Met themselves do seem pretty clear about which group they had the most trouble with"
Well, yes. If you ignore - mainly deliberately - the actions of one group, then it is very easy to say yopu only had trouble with one side.
The near victim of this and those who witnessed it may disagree. Funnily enough, no Plod in this picture.
If “near victim” is the best you can do for one side when the other lot have put officers in hospital it seems pretty clear where the balance lies between the two surely?
I hope this particular shithead gets what he deserves too.
Not a case of one side or the other. It's a case of saying if you confront one side and not the other, then - unsurprisingly - you are going to get the most trouble from the side you confront.
Both sides should have been confronted equally, in the same way and under the same principles. But if you think that allowing demonstrators to compare Israel's actions with Nazis or what is happening in Gaza with Auschwitz are not incidents where the Police should have taken action immediately, then I do not know what to say,
As for the sh1thead - and all shi1theads on all sides - they should get what they deserve. My fear is they won't. The crew from Blackburn who went through North West London shouting 'rape Jewish wives, rape their daughters' got arrested but not charged, Plod wants to be seen to be doing something but - as is too common unfortunately - will eventually let things slide when the noise dies down for fear of impacting 'community relations'.
Once again, the wildly out of touch nature of the PB readership shows itself.
The police don’t usually arrest people at a demo unless they believe they have absolutely no choice: It’s an enormous pain, takes away precious officers handling the arrest who could be managing the demo & keeping everyone else safe & put individual officers at risk. Plus it risks aggravating the crowd & making things wo rse.
What actually happens is records are kept, photos are taken, witnesses are noted & people get arrested after the fact if they’ve made arrestable actions that weren’t deemed worth arresting them for at the time. See, by way of evidence for this policy, the list of “do you know this person?” images on the Met twitter feed right now, mostly pro-palestinian marchers of one kind or another. I imagine they’ll get what’s coming to them.
The primary concern of the police at an event like this is /keeping the peace/. Arresting everyone who commits a crime on the day itself doesn’t even enter into the calculation: It would be a spectacularly stupid approach to policing a large demo.
"Once again, the wildly out of touch nature of the PB readership shows itself" - I see self-awareness is in full flow on pb.com today. The ultimate irony of the statement would be so classic if the topic was not so serious.
"The police don’t usually arrest people at a demo unless they believe they have absolutely no choice: It’s an enormous pain, takes away precious officers handling the arrest who could be managing the demo & keeping everyone else safe & put individual officers at risk. Plus it risks aggravating the crowd & making things worse." - no, the Police will not arrest at the time if they think it causes too much aggro but will quite happily arrest if they think the consequences are manageable. WHich is why the Police arrested the Yobs because ir was manageable to do so.
It is clear the Police handled the two demonstrations in different ways - they arrested the yobs (which is right) but let protestors with hateful symbols have them on full display without any attempt to even chide them or ask them to take them down, Hence, together with the polling out today, why it now looks like Bravermann is safe.
Who is a particular idiot is Matt Twist who is now going back to "community relations' being damaged. I thought we got rid of that garbage when it was realised the Police were using it not to arrest grooming gangs at the height of their actions. Obviously not. Also what is quite noticeable is the Met doesn't seem to be getting a huge amount of support from other Police forces - make of that what you will. .
Fair points, but it woild habe been absolutely impossible to arrest everyone on the pro-Pal march for hateful signs, shooting fireworks, and so on
Because there were many hundreds of dodgy signs and multiple knots of people shooting fireworks, and remember the fireworks came out in the darkness, so you'd be diving into large crowds, at night, to try and isolate firework shooters - actually not feasible, and highly likely to cause a major brawl
Presumably it became easier when a group broke off later that night, hence the kettling (and arrest) of the 150 marchers later on
And as for arresting people for hateful chanting, good luck with that. Two thirds of the people were lustily singing "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" or "5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - Israel is a terror state"
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
dude, as just a casual but frequent follower of this forum, i come on here to get views on *shock*... POLITICAL BETTING. every single thread is hijacked by you trying to create division. if you're so angry about pro palestinian marches, go and join tommy robinson or whatever his name and march against it, or go and spread your bile on breitbart or guido or whatever echo chamber cares about your ramblings, rather than attacking, in my opinion, incredibly balanced members of what is a fruitful place to discuss politics generally. you're hijacking a useful and thoughtful forum of discussion because you clearly have some unresolved issues and (i can only assume) dont have a real life friendship group to debate with.
the funniest thing if im not even pro palestinian. i abhor the escalatory marches in the wake of an appalling terrorist attack and wish they weren't happening because it WILL increase antisemtism in our beautiful city. the irony is that you cant see your ridiculous/fake hyperbole will also lead to even more hate crimes to the 'other side' ... ie peace loving muslims and 'woke lefties'. good on you bro
a few days ago didnt you say 'im bored of israel-gaza now?' absolutely appalling. god forbid you werent around in 1942 when they started publishing articles on the holocaust. luckily you would have had no influence then either
Do you have to be a lefty to use the word dude?
not sure if that was an attempt to be funny... and aren't lefties supposed to avoid such gendered terms?
Rather misleading headline @TSE and, if that was a polling company reporting in that way (which you are not), there would be some fair criticisms.
The numbers speak for themselves. The 49% of 2019 Tory voters who want to keep her is more than double the 22% who don't. If you were to split the DKs equally (and I suspect if they were forced to choose, they would go more with keeping her than sacking her but that's an assumption), then nearly two-thirds of 2019 Tory voters want to keep her.
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
What is the psychology of people who seek to magnify and exaggerate the "menace" of the pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you are a racist Islamophobe? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly believe it? Again that’s hard to credit that you regard people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children as a menace.
It's really hard to understand. I'm genuinely puzzled.
That's not what *some*, not all but some, are doing though is it? They're using the rallying point of calling for a ceasefire to share much more sinister and dangerous views. Shouting 'khaybar khaybar ya yahud' isn't asking for a ceasefire. Or 'From the river to the sea' (even on its milder interpretations). Nor is turning up with banners equating Zionism with a disease or Nazism. Or ranting and raving about 'Zionist conspiracies'.
Would that it were just "people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children" but that's quite blatantly not the agenda of some. This is what people are complaining about and rightly say is menacing. Those who don't see it's a problem are in denial and will damage their own cause by letting things go that taint any movement that's supposedly about 'peace'.
Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter is not the same as "ranting and raving about Zionism". Beacause some people shout unacceptable slogans etc. etc. does not mean that everyone who has shows some pro-palestinian sympathies is a raving anti-semite. I read many many comments on this forum which suggest that the two are the same thing.
"Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter" one would hope everyone wants this. And there are of course many on those marches who want a peaceful two state solution. However, denying there's a significant element who are fuelled by hatred of Israel, and yes, Jews (obviously not the same thing but feed each other), including some of the organisers and loudest voices, doesn't help anyone - least of all those who march alongside them hoping for peace, but instead have to accept bigotry as just a part of their movement.
And you think there aren't people on the opposite side fuelled by virulent hatred of Muslims?
Yes there are. That's the point. As liberal minded sorts we're generally quite good at ostracising them from polite society - with the odd exception like that creep Douglas Murray that earns those who associate with him justified criticism. When a politician like Braverman foolishly attempts to ride that tiger we rightly call her out for what she is.
But there's a huge failure to see that certain elements of the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel, 'anti-imperialist' etc movement really are toxic and dangerous. And too many are prepared to make excuses for stuff they never would coming from others whose 'cause' they didn't broadly believe in.
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
What is the psychology of people who seek to magnify and exaggerate the "menace" of the pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you are a racist Islamophobe? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly believe it? Again that’s hard to credit that you regard people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children as a menace.
It's really hard to understand. I'm genuinely puzzled.
That's not what *some*, not all but some, are doing though is it? They're using the rallying point of calling for a ceasefire to share much more sinister and dangerous views. Shouting 'khaybar khaybar ya yahud' isn't asking for a ceasefire. Or 'From the river to the sea' (even on its milder interpretations). Nor is turning up with banners equating Zionism with a disease or Nazism. Or ranting and raving about 'Zionist conspiracies'.
Would that it were just "people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children" but that's quite blatantly not the agenda of some. This is what people are complaining about and rightly say is menacing. Those who don't see it's a problem are in denial and will damage their own cause by letting things go that taint any movement that's supposedly about 'peace'.
Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter is not the same as "ranting and raving about Zionism". Beacause some people shout unacceptable slogans etc. etc. does not mean that everyone who has shows some pro-palestinian sympathies is a raving anti-semite. I read many many comments on this forum which suggest that the two are the same thing.
"Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter" one would hope everyone wants this. And there are of course many on those marches who want a peaceful two state solution. However, denying there's a significant element who are fuelled by hatred of Israel, and yes, Jews (obviously not the same thing but feed each other), including some of the organisers and loudest voices, doesn't help anyone - least of all those who march alongside them hoping for peace, but instead have to accept bigotry as just a part of their movement.
And you think there aren't people on the opposite side fuelled by virulent hatred of Muslims?
Rather misleading headline @TSE and, if that was a polling company reporting in that way (which you are not), there would be some fair criticisms.
The numbers speak for themselves. The 49% of 2019 Tory voters who want to keep her is more than double the 22% who don't. If you were to split the DKs equally (and I suspect if they were forced to choose, they would go more with keeping her than sacking her but that's an assumption), then nearly two-thirds of 2019 Tory voters want to keep her.
Opposition parties have been joined by Tory MPs of the liberal persuasion in recoiling in disgust at the deliberately inflammatory provocations of Suella Braverman. “Mad” and “bad” are among the descriptions to be heard from moderate Tories. They’re pressing Rishi Sunak to get a pair of cojones and fire her, both for what she has done and for defying Number 10’s instructions not to do it.
Unforgivably, in the eyes of many in her own party as well as many outside it, she has sought to undermine the police and fundamental principles of the free society. Sir Tom Winsor, the chief inspector of constabulary during the time of four previous Conservative home secretaries, had it right when he said that Ms Braverman had crossed a sacrosanct line: “It’s unprecedented. It’s contrary to the spirit of the ancient constitutional settlement with the police… A home secretary of all people is not the person to do this.”
The question for the prime minister is how much longer he can tolerate a recklessly irresponsible and serially disloyal home secretary who can never see division without wanting to fan its flames in the cynical pursuit of her own ambitions.
It is his own fault that Mr Sunak faces this question. Mr Sunak brought her back, not because he thought she had the character and qualities to be a capable home secretary, but because he made a desperate bargain with her in the belief that he needed the support of the party’s hard right to secure the Tory leadership. Mr Sunak must surely now see that she is inside the tent pissing all over him.
...says one former Conservative cabinet minister. “If Rishi doesn’t sack her, he will be permanently weakened.” The question facing all Tories, especially the party’s more moderate MPs and members, is whether they want their party to become defined by Ms Braverman’s toxic brand of politics. There is no doubt there are some votes in being an unashamedly and explicitly “nasty party”, but history suggests there will never be enough backers for it to win an election in Britain.
Sunak isn't strong enough to sack Braverman, he needed her support and the ERG MPs she brought with her to get a majority of Tory MPs to become leader last autumn. He is also leaking votes to Reform on his right, who are on 9% in one poll and most of those voters agree with Braverman
Richard has written to me personally saying:
"Reform UK intend to stand around 630 candidates at that General Election. To that end we are looking for potential candidates to come forward and apply to join our team. So, if any of you would like to consider standing for Reform UK and would like to find out more please check our website or reply directly to me. There will be lots of help/training available.
Please, please really consider this, we have all had a lifetime of these cheating, lying, self serving, arrogant, hand-in-the-till politicians of the Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem parties."
I don't think there is going to a cosy arrangement between Reform and the Tories. Nor do I think that all Reform supporters will vote tactically for the Tories.
But by supporting Braverman, Sunak will lose more of the traditional sensible Tory voters than he gains from pandering to his UKIP lite membership. He's going to lose isn't he. Even he knows that. Better to lose with honour
He won't, the 25-29% still voting Tory are the rock bottom core vote, voted Tory even in 1997 and 2001 and will always vote Tory.
It is the 5-10% now voting Reform he needs to squeeze first to make any sort of recovery
FPT.
It's not the 25%-29% still voting Tory. Judging from the five polls with fieldwork within the past week, that is since Braverman really kicked off, it's the 23%-26% still voting Tory.
And Lib Dems only 13 seats, which seems a bit off. The MRP is based on much better national vote share for the Tories than most other polling.
Apparently it shows the Tories only holding 2 seats in London, with 1 of them being Finchley, which seems unlikely. Orpington, Upminster and Romford are far safer.
Finchley skewed by the strong showing for Luciana Berger last time?
Some of the other results look unlikely; Labour gain Winchester looks pretty implausible. I guess one of the problems at the moment is that there's no way for an MRP to take account of the "how many bajillion Focus leaflets are going through letterboxes" factor.
Fun fact: the poll was carried out by Survation on behalf of the UK Spirits Alliance. Basically it shows the Conservatives don't have a ghost of a chance.
Winchester? I can't access the Times article but, if it says that, it has to be a typo of some kind. The result in 2019 was a Tory majority of under 1,000 over the Lib Dems, with Labour losing their deposit, and Labour won under 5% of the vote in Winchester City Council elections in May. There are some boundary changes, and it's not exactly coterminous with the the City, but that's just obviously crazy.
Rather misleading headline @TSE and, if that was a polling company reporting in that way (which you are not), there would be some fair criticisms.
The numbers speak for themselves. The 49% of 2019 Tory voters who want to keep her is more than double the 22% who don't. If you were to split the DKs equally (and I suspect if they were forced to choose, they would go more with keeping her than sacking her but that's an assumption), then nearly two-thirds of 2019 Tory voters want to keep her.
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
What is the psychology of people who seek to magnify and exaggerate the "menace" of the pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you are a racist Islamophobe? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly believe it? Again that’s hard to credit that you regard people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children as a menace.
It's really hard to understand. I'm genuinely puzzled.
That's not what *some*, not all but some, are doing though is it? They're using the rallying point of calling for a ceasefire to share much more sinister and dangerous views. Shouting 'khaybar khaybar ya yahud' isn't asking for a ceasefire. Or 'From the river to the sea' (even on its milder interpretations). Nor is turning up with banners equating Zionism with a disease or Nazism. Or ranting and raving about 'Zionist conspiracies'.
Would that it were just "people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children" but that's quite blatantly not the agenda of some. This is what people are complaining about and rightly say is menacing. Those who don't see it's a problem are in denial and will damage their own cause by letting things go that taint any movement that's supposedly about 'peace'.
Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter is not the same as "ranting and raving about Zionism". Beacause some people shout unacceptable slogans etc. etc. does not mean that everyone who has shows some pro-palestinian sympathies is a raving anti-semite. I read many many comments on this forum which suggest that the two are the same thing.
"Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter" one would hope everyone wants this. And there are of course many on those marches who want a peaceful two state solution. However, denying there's a significant element who are fuelled by hatred of Israel, and yes, Jews (obviously not the same thing but feed each other), including some of the organisers and loudest voices, doesn't help anyone - least of all those who march alongside them hoping for peace, but instead have to accept bigotry as just a part of their movement.
And you think there aren't people on the opposite side fuelled by virulent hatred of Muslims?
You mean the 200 vs 300,000?
No. I mean a huge number fuelled by what is essentially racism.
"One of the more intriguing aspects of the scandal is how the Law Commission came to rule that computer evidence could not be challenged.
Are we to see some backtracking....or even an apology? Don't hold your breath."
Guess who was lobbying the Law Commission hard to make that rule change? Yes: you've guessed right! The Post Office.
Please pass Go and collect £200 or £200,000 or £2, any old number, just make it up.
Having got that rule change the PO had no incentive to make sure their computer system worked correctly because it literally could not be challenged.
Quite what the government's law officers thought they were doing letting this change go through, God only knows. It fundamentally shifted the burden of proof from the prosecution to the defence and given the lack of legal aid for the sort of expert evidence needed made it impossible for any defendant to defend themselves.
In the late 90s there was an obsession with the idea that computers couldn't be wrong. Somehow that filtered through into this law that allowed the Post Office to prosecute people. Group think.
And Lib Dems only 13 seats, which seems a bit off. The MRP is based on much better national vote share for the Tories than most other polling.
Apparently it shows the Tories only holding 2 seats in London, with 1 of them being Finchley, which seems unlikely. Orpington, Upminster and Romford are far safer.
Finchley skewed by the strong showing for Luciana Berger last time?
Some of the other results look unlikely; Labour gain Winchester looks pretty implausible. I guess one of the problems at the moment is that there's no way for an MRP to take account of the "how many bajillion Focus leaflets are going through letterboxes" factor.
Fun fact: the poll was carried out by Survation on behalf of the UK Spirits Alliance. Basically it shows the Conservatives don't have a ghost of a chance.
Winchester? I can't access the Times article but, if it says that, it has to be a typo of some kind. The result in 2019 was a Tory majority of under 1,000 over the Lib Dems, with Labour losing their deposit, and Labour won under 5% of the vote in Winchester City Council elections in May. There are some boundary changes, and it's not exactly coterminous with the the City, but that's just obviously crazy.
Apologies- my finger slip. Though they do have Conservatives holding on (C37, L 20.5, LD34.3), which is equally silly. But the general principle- even MRP doesn't work for Lib Dems, because their sucess depends massively on where they seriously fight- is OK I think.
And Lib Dems only 13 seats, which seems a bit off. The MRP is based on much better national vote share for the Tories than most other polling.
Apparently it shows the Tories only holding 2 seats in London, with 1 of them being Finchley, which seems unlikely. Orpington, Upminster and Romford are far safer.
Finchley skewed by the strong showing for Luciana Berger last time?
Some of the other results look unlikely; Labour gain Winchester looks pretty implausible. I guess one of the problems at the moment is that there's no way for an MRP to take account of the "how many bajillion Focus leaflets are going through letterboxes" factor.
Fun fact: the poll was carried out by Survation on behalf of the UK Spirits Alliance. Basically it shows the Conservatives don't have a ghost of a chance.
Winchester? I can't access the Times article but, if it says that, it has to be a typo of some kind. The result in 2019 was a Tory majority of under 1,000 over the Lib Dems, with Labour losing their deposit, and Labour won under 5% of the vote in Winchester City Council elections in May. There are some boundary changes, and it's not exactly coterminous with the the City, but that's just obviously crazy.
Another strange prediction it has is SLAB winning Edinburgh West from the SLDs. Can't see that one happening...
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
The idea that the Tories can be saved by a "Rwanda election" is terminal proof of their futile desperation
It is quite possible the whole thing could backfire on them, because voters will think Wait, this is YOUR fault, you should have fixed the boats, you're the government, go jump in a lake = leading to an even worse result than they might have anticipated
The Tories need to move on from Bargaining and work through Depression and get to Acceptance. They are going to lose pretty badly in 2024, the best they can do is govern as competently as possible for the next 12 months and minimise their inevitably dramatic losses
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
Interesting how few on here who were critical of the ceasefire marches are willing to condemn far right violence, instead in some cases bending over backwards to distort reality (‘the Met only policed the far right march not the ceasefire march’ or ‘The EDL-types were only trying to get into Whitehall to pay their respects’).
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The idea that the Tories can be saved by a "Rwanda election" is terminal proof of their futile desperation
It is quite possible the whole thing could backfire on them, because voters will think Wait, this is YOUR fault, you should have fixed the boats, you're the government, go jump in a lake = leading to an even worse result than they might have anticipated
The Tories need to move on from Bargaining and work through Depression and get to Acceptance. They are going to lose pretty badly in 2024, the best they can do is govern as competently as possible for the next 12 months and miniise their inevitably dramatic losses
One of the advantages Major had.
The calamity that sunk him was pretty early on in his second term. And the wider party had a chance to come to terms with their doom in the 1995 leadership election. (Is there anyone out there who is going to do better? No, just the Vulcan.)
So the whole party could- sort of- move on to "we're going to lose the election, let's aim at some redemption in the history books". This iteration of the Conservatives doesn't seem to be there yet.
Maybe, Boring Old Starmer notwithstanding, it will be worse than 1997.
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
Well Karl Marx was Jewish.
Well a huge number of people have been influenced by him. Every single major postmodern theorist was a Marxist - Foucaut, Derrida, Lacan. Are we supposed to pretend that they aren't? Stephen Hicks does a good job of explaining it. It was clear by the 1950s that the Soviet Union was failing so they decided to invent a new doctrine where nothing was better than anything else.
Interesting how few on here who were critical of the ceasefire marches are willing to condemn far right violence, instead in some cases bending over backwards to distort reality (‘the Met only policed the far right march not the ceasefire march’ or ‘The EDL-types were only trying to get into Whitehall to pay their respects’).
Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, whoever does it.
No one on PB is excusing the football louts. They were - and I saw them - a bunch of ugly idiots, fulled on beer, weed and 'ooter. I saw one abuse a copper horribly (and escape arrest) - I saw another hurl racist slurs at some Muslim girls. Thoroughly nasty
But they WERE tiny in number, 200-300? And kind of pathetic. Saddos
Across London 300,000 marched, and whatever you think of that march, 300,000 people is impressive and definitely not "pathetic", and is therefore worthy of proportionately more scrutiny
The idea that the Tories can be saved by a "Rwanda election" is terminal proof of their futile desperation
It is quite possible the whole thing could backfire on them, because voters will think Wait, this is YOUR fault, you should have fixed the boats, you're the government, go jump in a lake = leading to an even worse result than they might have anticipated
The Tories need to move on from Bargaining and work through Depression and get to Acceptance. They are going to lose pretty badly in 2024, the best they can do is govern as competently as possible for the next 12 months and minimise their inevitably dramatic losses
I always like to place on the record when I agree with Leon.
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
Maybe something to do with the fact that most members of the Frankfurt School (from whose work cultural marxism derives) were Jewish.
In the late 90s there was an obsession with the idea that computers couldn't be wrong. Somehow that filtered through into this law that allowed the Post Office to prosecute people. Group think.
Except that, in this case, both the vendor and the PO knew their new computer system was making up the numbers, and still lobbied the courts to rule that the data was infallible, in criminal prosecutions against their own sub-postmasters.
Their own quality assurance teams were lobbying against the rollout of the software, as there were hundreds of documented bugs in the system, and overruled by the PO management.
Interesting how few on here who were critical of the ceasefire marches are willing to condemn far right violence, instead in some cases bending over backwards to distort reality (‘the Met only policed the far right march not the ceasefire march’ or ‘The EDL-types were only trying to get into Whitehall to pay their respects’).
Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, whoever does it.
Really? Have not seen anyone trying to say the right-wing violence is ok, mainly because it wasn't - they were thuggish yobs out for trouble.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
I think it would need to be kept separate from a ceasefire march.
Actually separate from Israel/Gaza more generally.
The idea that the Tories can be saved by a "Rwanda election" is terminal proof of their futile desperation
It is quite possible the whole thing could backfire on them, because voters will think Wait, this is YOUR fault, you should have fixed the boats, you're the government, go jump in a lake = leading to an even worse result than they might have anticipated
The Tories need to move on from Bargaining and work through Depression and get to Acceptance. They are going to lose pretty badly in 2024, the best they can do is govern as competently as possible for the next 12 months and miniise their inevitably dramatic losses
One of the advantages Major had.
The calamity that sunk him was pretty early on in his second term. And the wider party had a chance to come to terms with their doom in the 1995 leadership election. (Is there anyone out there who is going to do better? No, just the Vulcan.)
So the whole party could- sort of- move on to "we're going to lose the election, let's aim at some redemption in the history books". This iteration of the Conservatives doesn't seem to be there yet.
Maybe, Boring Old Starmer notwithstanding, it will be worse than 1997.
It might be a few seats worse than 1997 and the Labour majority a bit bigger.
However, unlike 1997, Starmer will not have the rosy economic legacy Major left for Blair. Inflation and interest rates are higher and growth slower.
Strikes are more likely as public sector unions demand above inflation wage rises. Starmer also lacks Blair's charisma and will win because he is not Sunak and the Tories not because of any great enthusiasm for him.
So the swingback to the Tories is likely to be swifter in the polls than it was in 1997 whatever the result on election night and whoever the next Tory leader is
Interesting how few on here who were critical of the ceasefire marches are willing to condemn far right violence, instead in some cases bending over backwards to distort reality (‘the Met only policed the far right march not the ceasefire march’ or ‘The EDL-types were only trying to get into Whitehall to pay their respects’).
Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, whoever does it.
No one on PB is excusing the football louts.
Only a few minutes ago on PB Frank Booth was equating the 300,000 peaceful demonstrators with them!
This is a new on on me, the “five families” of the Tory hard-right manning the barricades to defend Braverman: the European Research Group, the Northern Research Group, the New Conservatives, the Common Sense Group and No Turning Back.
It's disgusting that anyone that ever said that got elected.
I think if a British politician ever said that here, of any background or stripe, they'd definitely lose their deposit and their vote count would be a miniscule two figures - if they were lucky.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
Le Pen is cleverly positioning herself further to the centre, attending an anti semitism march which Melenchon and the left have boycotted.
The latest French presidential poll puts Le Pen comfortably ahead in the first round on 31% to just 25% for Macron's former PM Edouard Philippe (likely candidate for Macron's party as Macron cannot run for a 3rd term) and 14% for Melenchon and 6.5% for Zemmour and 6% for Wauquiez from Les Republicains https://www.ifop.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/119940-Rapport.pdf
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
What is the psychology of people who seek to magnify and exaggerate the "menace" of the pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you are a racist Islamophobe? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly believe it? Again that’s hard to credit that you regard people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children as a menace.
It's really hard to understand. I'm genuinely puzzled.
That's not what *some*, not all but some, are doing though is it? They're using the rallying point of calling for a ceasefire to share much more sinister and dangerous views. Shouting 'khaybar khaybar ya yahud' isn't asking for a ceasefire. Or 'From the river to the sea' (even on its milder interpretations). Nor is turning up with banners equating Zionism with a disease or Nazism. Or ranting and raving about 'Zionist conspiracies'.
Would that it were just "people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children" but that's quite blatantly not the agenda of some. This is what people are complaining about and rightly say is menacing. Those who don't see it's a problem are in denial and will damage their own cause by letting things go that taint any movement that's supposedly about 'peace'.
Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter is not the same as "ranting and raving about Zionism". Beacause some people shout unacceptable slogans etc. etc. does not mean that everyone who has shows some pro-palestinian sympathies is a raving anti-semite. I read many many comments on this forum which suggest that the two are the same thing.
"Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter" one would hope everyone wants this. And there are of course many on those marches who want a peaceful two state solution. However, denying there's a significant element who are fuelled by hatred of Israel, and yes, Jews (obviously not the same thing but feed each other), including some of the organisers and loudest voices, doesn't help anyone - least of all those who march alongside them hoping for peace, but instead have to accept bigotry as just a part of their movement.
And you think there aren't people on the opposite side fuelled by virulent hatred of Muslims?
You mean the 200 vs 300,000?
No. I mean a huge number fuelled by what is essentially racism.
So where are these people? Who are they threatening? So far as I can tell it is only Jewish people who feel afraid living in Britain today. No other group is fearing for the future of its religious buildings and schools.
It's disgusting that anyone that ever said that got elected.
I think if a British politician ever said that here, of any background or stripe, they'd definitely lose their deposit and their vote count would be a miniscule two figures - if they were lucky.
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
And Lib Dems only 13 seats, which seems a bit off. The MRP is based on much better national vote share for the Tories than most other polling.
Apparently it shows the Tories only holding 2 seats in London, with 1 of them being Finchley, which seems unlikely. Orpington, Upminster and Romford are far safer.
Finchley skewed by the strong showing for Luciana Berger last time?
Some of the other results look unlikely; Labour gain Winchester looks pretty implausible. I guess one of the problems at the moment is that there's no way for an MRP to take account of the "how many bajillion Focus leaflets are going through letterboxes" factor.
Fun fact: the poll was carried out by Survation on behalf of the UK Spirits Alliance. Basically it shows the Conservatives don't have a ghost of a chance.
Winchester? I can't access the Times article but, if it says that, it has to be a typo of some kind. The result in 2019 was a Tory majority of under 1,000 over the Lib Dems, with Labour losing their deposit, and Labour won under 5% of the vote in Winchester City Council elections in May. There are some boundary changes, and it's not exactly coterminous with the the City, but that's just obviously crazy.
It would be better to wait until an Election is called. Then we better know what's what.
Drawing conclusions from current polling us pointless. Ask Teresa May.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
Well Karl Marx was Jewish.
So was Leon Trotsky
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
He was assassinated at his home in Mexico City by NKVD
Some people think he got an ice pick but i think it was Stranglers
Paywalled but good analysis of yesterday's protests - nasties and idiots on both the main march and amongst Braverman's Boys. Concludes that the split in British society is a reason for much sadness.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
There's a lot of stuff the police do that I don't like but I don't think they are 'appeasing' anyone. I don't know why they felt the need to take down pictures of children being held hostage but I do know they have a very difficult job and I believe the vast majority of them are, I have no doubt, doing it with the best of intent.
More to the point, to reiterate my earlier comment, I don't hear many (indeed away from PB, any) people talking about police appeasement. Only extreme right-wingers like you seem to get worked up about it.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
The inability of PB-ers - and many many others - to put themselves in the minds of British Jews is quite startling and depressing. Theory of Mind means you should be able to do it unless you're properly dumb - or neurodivergent
Within living memory an extremely powerful European nation tried to kill every Jew on earth, and they got as far as killing maybe half of them - and if Hitler had won they could easily have killed 80%. Even today the global Jewish population has not recovered from the Holocaust
And yesterday we had a woman casually yelling "death to all Jews" in a British railway station, and no one doing anything, no outrage, no anger, nothing - apparently. And this was just one anti-Semitic incident amongst hundreds these last weeks, and many thousands around the world
The virus of Jew-hatred is BACK. Jews are frightened. And anyone with an ounce of empathy can surely see why they are frightened, and share it, no?
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
There's a lot of stuff the police do that I don't like but I don't think they are 'appeasing' anyone. I don't know why they felt the need to take down pictures of children being held hostage but I do know they have a very difficult job and I believe the vast majority of them are, I have no doubt, doing it with the best of intent.
More to the point, to reiterate my earlier comment, I don't hear many (indeed away from PB, any) people talking about police appeasement. Only extreme right-wingers like you seem to get worked up about it.
In what sane world is @FrankBooth an "extreme right winger"?
FFS. Hitler was an extreme rightwinger. Goebbels was an extreme rightwinger. Hamas are pretty bloody extreme and fascist - as are the hardcore nutters in Likud
@FrankBooth is a respected PB-er. Describing him as some kind of a Nazi is childish, twattish and idiotic
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
There's a lot of stuff the police do that I don't like but I don't think they are 'appeasing' anyone. I don't know why they felt the need to take down pictures of children being held hostage but I do know they have a very difficult job and I believe the vast majority of them are, I have no doubt, doing it with the best of intent.
More to the point, to reiterate my earlier comment, I don't hear many (indeed away from PB, any) people talking about police appeasement. Only extreme right-wingers like you seem to get worked up about it.
You think I'm an extreme right winger? Blimey. I will accept to being somewhat radicalised by the response we've seen to the 7 October attacks in the UK where Muslims chanting 'from the river to the sea' is okay but Jews putting up pictures of hostages is seen as damaging to community cohesion? Why? Because police fear violence from the former but not the latter. Different rules apply.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
There's a lot of stuff the police do that I don't like but I don't think they are 'appeasing' anyone. I don't know why they felt the need to take down pictures of children being held hostage but I do know they have a very difficult job and I believe the vast majority of them are, I have no doubt, doing it with the best of intent.
More to the point, to reiterate my earlier comment, I don't hear many (indeed away from PB, any) people talking about police appeasement. Only extreme right-wingers like you seem to get worked up about it.
In what sane world is @FrankBooth an "extreme right winger"?
FFS. Hitler was an extreme rightwinger. Goebbels was an extreme rightwinger. Hamas are pretty bloody extreme and fascist - as are the hardcore nutters in Likud
@FrankBooth is a respected PB-er. Describing him as some kind of a Nazi is childish, twattish and idiotic
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
There's a lot of stuff the police do that I don't like but I don't think they are 'appeasing' anyone. I don't know why they felt the need to take down pictures of children being held hostage but I do know they have a very difficult job and I believe the vast majority of them are, I have no doubt, doing it with the best of intent.
More to the point, to reiterate my earlier comment, I don't hear many (indeed away from PB, any) people talking about police appeasement. Only extreme right-wingers like you seem to get worked up about it.
You think I'm an extreme right winger? Blimey. I will accept to being somewhat radicalised by the response we've seen to the 7 October attacks in the UK where Muslims chanting 'from the river to the sea' is okay but Jews putting up pictures of hostages is seen as damaging to community cohesion? Why? Because police fear violence from the former but not the latter. Different rules apply.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
There's a lot of stuff the police do that I don't like but I don't think they are 'appeasing' anyone. I don't know why they felt the need to take down pictures of children being held hostage but I do know they have a very difficult job and I believe the vast majority of them are, I have no doubt, doing it with the best of intent.
More to the point, to reiterate my earlier comment, I don't hear many (indeed away from PB, any) people talking about police appeasement. Only extreme right-wingers like you seem to get worked up about it.
In what sane world is @FrankBooth an "extreme right winger"?
FFS. Hitler was an extreme rightwinger. Goebbels was an extreme rightwinger. Hamas are pretty bloody extreme and fascist - as are the hardcore nutters in Likud
@FrankBooth is a respected PB-er. Describing him as some kind of a Nazi is childish, twattish and idiotic
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
dude, as just a casual but frequent follower of this forum, i come on here to get views on *shock*... POLITICAL BETTING. every single thread is hijacked by you trying to create division. if you're so angry about pro palestinian marches, go and join tommy robinson or whatever his name and march against it, or go and spread your bile on breitbart or guido or whatever echo chamber cares about your ramblings, rather than attacking, in my opinion, incredibly balanced members of what is a fruitful place to discuss politics generally. you're hijacking a useful and thoughtful forum of discussion because you clearly have some unresolved issues and (i can only assume) dont have a real life friendship group to debate with.
the funniest thing if im not even pro palestinian. i abhor the escalatory marches in the wake of an appalling terrorist attack and wish they weren't happening because it WILL increase antisemtism in our beautiful city. the irony is that you cant see your ridiculous/fake hyperbole will also lead to even more hate crimes to the 'other side' ... ie peace loving muslims and 'woke lefties'. good on you bro
a few days ago didnt you say 'im bored of israel-gaza now?' absolutely appalling. god forbid you werent around in 1942 when they started publishing articles on the holocaust. luckily you would have had no influence then either
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
The inability of PB-ers - and many many others - to put themselves in the minds of British Jews is quite startling and depressing. Theory of Mind means you should be able to do it unless you're properly dumb - or neurodivergent
Within living memory an extremely powerful European nation tried to kill every Jew on earth, and they got as far as killing maybe half of them - and if Hitler had won they could easily have killed 80%. Even today the global Jewish population has not recovered from the Holocaust
And yesterday we had a woman casually yelling "death to all Jews" in a British railway station, and no one doing anything, no outrage, no anger, nothing - apparently. And this was just one anti-Semitic incident amongst hundreds these last weeks, and many thousands around the world
The virus of Jew-hatred is BACK. Jews are frightened. And anyone with an ounce of empathy can surely see why they are frightened, and share it, no?
Entirely correct. And this should be obvious to all people of good will regardless of where they stand on the particularities of the mutual barbarities that have been and are being meted out in Israel/Palestine.
Electoral Calculus puts it a bit higher, and without taking tatical voting into account.
It gives high and low estimates too. if you take the extreme low for the Tories it is not inconceivable they would not be the Official Opposition. Wonder what odds you could get on that?
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
dude, as just a casual but frequent follower of this forum, i come on here to get views on *shock*... POLITICAL BETTING. every single thread is hijacked by you trying to create division. if you're so angry about pro palestinian marches, go and join tommy robinson or whatever his name and march against it, or go and spread your bile on breitbart or guido or whatever echo chamber cares about your ramblings, rather than attacking, in my opinion, incredibly balanced members of what is a fruitful place to discuss politics generally. you're hijacking a useful and thoughtful forum of discussion because you clearly have some unresolved issues and (i can only assume) dont have a real life friendship group to debate with.
the funniest thing if im not even pro palestinian. i abhor the escalatory marches in the wake of an appalling terrorist attack and wish they weren't happening because it WILL increase antisemtism in our beautiful city. the irony is that you cant see your ridiculous/fake hyperbole will also lead to even more hate crimes to the 'other side' ... ie peace loving muslims and 'woke lefties'. good on you bro
a few days ago didnt you say 'im bored of israel-gaza now?' absolutely appalling. god forbid you werent around in 1942 when they started publishing articles on the holocaust. luckily you would have had no influence then either
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
What is the psychology of people who seek to magnify and exaggerate the "menace" of the pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you are a racist Islamophobe? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly believe it? Again that’s hard to credit that you regard people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children as a menace.
It's really hard to understand. I'm genuinely puzzled.
That's not what *some*, not all but some, are doing though is it? They're using the rallying point of calling for a ceasefire to share much more sinister and dangerous views. Shouting 'khaybar khaybar ya yahud' isn't asking for a ceasefire. Or 'From the river to the sea' (even on its milder interpretations). Nor is turning up with banners equating Zionism with a disease or Nazism. Or ranting and raving about 'Zionist conspiracies'.
Would that it were just "people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children" but that's quite blatantly not the agenda of some. This is what people are complaining about and rightly say is menacing. Those who don't see it's a problem are in denial and will damage their own cause by letting things go that taint any movement that's supposedly about 'peace'.
Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter is not the same as "ranting and raving about Zionism". Beacause some people shout unacceptable slogans etc. etc. does not mean that everyone who has shows some pro-palestinian sympathies is a raving anti-semite. I read many many comments on this forum which suggest that the two are the same thing.
"Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter" one would hope everyone wants this. And there are of course many on those marches who want a peaceful two state solution. However, denying there's a significant element who are fuelled by hatred of Israel, and yes, Jews (obviously not the same thing but feed each other), including some of the organisers and loudest voices, doesn't help anyone - least of all those who march alongside them hoping for peace, but instead have to accept bigotry as just a part of their movement.
And you think there aren't people on the opposite side fuelled by virulent hatred of Muslims?
You mean the 200 vs 300,000?
No. I mean a huge number fuelled by what is essentially racism.
So where are these people? Who are they threatening? So far as I can tell it is only Jewish people who feel afraid living in Britain today. No other group is fearing for the future of its religious buildings and schools.
What an incredible comment. You seriously think Sadiq Khan could have walked safely through that mob to the Cenotaph? There's no racism? No Islamophobia? No homophobia? What a cosseted life!
In the late 90s there was an obsession with the idea that computers couldn't be wrong. Somehow that filtered through into this law that allowed the Post Office to prosecute people. Group think.
Except that, in this case, both the vendor and the PO knew their new computer system was making up the numbers, and still lobbied the courts to rule that the data was infallible, in criminal prosecutions against their own sub-postmasters.
Their own quality assurance teams were lobbying against the rollout of the software, as there were hundreds of documented bugs in the system, and overruled by the PO management.
How is that not perjury?
It is.
The Law Commission's ruling on computer evidence originates in the ploy some motorists started to use in order to get off speeding offences and the like. They argued that the cameras and speed recording equipment had to be tested to prove guilt. This was impractical, so the LC solved the problem by saying that the technology was always correct until proved otherwise.
We await with bated breath the LC's apology to the Subpostmasters, and the public generally.
Paywalled but good analysis of yesterday's protests - nasties and idiots on both the main march and amongst Braverman's Boys. Concludes that the split in British society is a reason for much sadness.
This is nothing new - on every issue of mass protest there is always an uneasy coalition of moderates and radicals. Every time there is a major demonstration I know (and if I know, the Met also knows) there will be those who, either because the cause has radicalised them or simply because they want to, are only interested in violence.
That goes down the spectrum from abusive chanting to outright physical confrontation with the Police via a side order of looting. From the anti-Vietnam War protest at Grosvenor Square through to the Poll Tax riot and beyond, mass public protest has attracted a larger or smaller group bent on more than peaceful protest.
I don't recall problems with CND marches or the anti-Iraq War demonstration or the Countryside Alliance march - why not? Perhaps when you have a suitably broad base of protesters (and especially if there is a strong inter denominational element), such protests become self-policing and those wishing to disrupt are easily identified and identifiable among those wishing only to peacefully protest.
Large scale peaceful protest by a coalition of groups holding a position with considerable public support has to happen in a democratic plural society. The Government of the day may not like it but that's no reason to ban such protests.
In the late 90s there was an obsession with the idea that computers couldn't be wrong. Somehow that filtered through into this law that allowed the Post Office to prosecute people. Group think.
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
Well Karl Marx was Jewish.
Well a huge number of people have been influenced by him. Every single major postmodern theorist was a Marxist - Foucaut, Derrida, Lacan. Are we supposed to pretend that they aren't? Stephen Hicks does a good job of explaining it. It was clear by the 1950s that the Soviet Union was failing so they decided to invent a new doctrine where nothing was better than anything else.
And approach avidly adopted by the right wing science deniers.
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
What is the psychology of people who seek to magnify and exaggerate the "menace" of the pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you are a racist Islamophobe? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly believe it? Again that’s hard to credit that you regard people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children as a menace.
It's really hard to understand. I'm genuinely puzzled.
That's not what *some*, not all but some, are doing though is it? They're using the rallying point of calling for a ceasefire to share much more sinister and dangerous views. Shouting 'khaybar khaybar ya yahud' isn't asking for a ceasefire. Or 'From the river to the sea' (even on its milder interpretations). Nor is turning up with banners equating Zionism with a disease or Nazism. Or ranting and raving about 'Zionist conspiracies'.
Would that it were just "people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children" but that's quite blatantly not the agenda of some. This is what people are complaining about and rightly say is menacing. Those who don't see it's a problem are in denial and will damage their own cause by letting things go that taint any movement that's supposedly about 'peace'.
Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter is not the same as "ranting and raving about Zionism". Beacause some people shout unacceptable slogans etc. etc. does not mean that everyone who has shows some pro-palestinian sympathies is a raving anti-semite. I read many many comments on this forum which suggest that the two are the same thing.
"Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter" one would hope everyone wants this. And there are of course many on those marches who want a peaceful two state solution. However, denying there's a significant element who are fuelled by hatred of Israel, and yes, Jews (obviously not the same thing but feed each other), including some of the organisers and loudest voices, doesn't help anyone - least of all those who march alongside them hoping for peace, but instead have to accept bigotry as just a part of their movement.
And you think there aren't people on the opposite side fuelled by virulent hatred of Muslims?
You mean the 200 vs 300,000?
No. I mean a huge number fuelled by what is essentially racism.
So where are these people? Who are they threatening? So far as I can tell it is only Jewish people who feel afraid living in Britain today. No other group is fearing for the future of its religious buildings and schools.
What an incredible comment. You seriously think Sadiq Khan could have walked safely through that mob to the Cenotaph? There's no racism? No Islamophobia? No homophobia? What a cosseted life!
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
dude, as just a casual but frequent follower of this forum, i come on here to get views on *shock*... POLITICAL BETTING. every single thread is hijacked by you trying to create division. if you're so angry about pro palestinian marches, go and join tommy robinson or whatever his name and march against it, or go and spread your bile on breitbart or guido or whatever echo chamber cares about your ramblings, rather than attacking, in my opinion, incredibly balanced members of what is a fruitful place to discuss politics generally. you're hijacking a useful and thoughtful forum of discussion because you clearly have some unresolved issues and (i can only assume) dont have a real life friendship group to debate with.
the funniest thing if im not even pro palestinian. i abhor the escalatory marches in the wake of an appalling terrorist attack and wish they weren't happening because it WILL increase antisemtism in our beautiful city. the irony is that you cant see your ridiculous/fake hyperbole will also lead to even more hate crimes to the 'other side' ... ie peace loving muslims and 'woke lefties'. good on you bro
a few days ago didnt you say 'im bored of israel-gaza now?' absolutely appalling. god forbid you werent around in 1942 when they started publishing articles on the holocaust. luckily you would have had no influence then either
Do you have to be a lefty to use the word dude?
Dude, it's a universal term of mild disrespect.
Dude: Prince Harry dressed in the frock coat attire of the Blues and Royals.
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
Well Karl Marx was Jewish.
So was Leon Trotsky
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
He was assassinated at his home in Mexico City by NKVD
Some people think he got an ice pick but i think it was Stranglers
Interesting how few on here who were critical of the ceasefire marches are willing to condemn far right violence, instead in some cases bending over backwards to distort reality (‘the Met only policed the far right march not the ceasefire march’ or ‘The EDL-types were only trying to get into Whitehall to pay their respects’).
Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, whoever does it.
No one on PB is excusing the football louts. They were - and I saw them - a bunch of ugly idiots, fulled on beer, weed and 'ooter. I saw one abuse a copper horribly (and escape arrest) - I saw another hurl racist slurs at some Muslim girls. Thoroughly nasty
But they WERE tiny in number, 200-300? And kind of pathetic. Saddos
Across London 300,000 marched, and whatever you think of that march, 300,000 people is impressive and definitely not "pathetic", and is therefore worthy of proportionately more scrutiny
When considering the differential rates of violence, you might have hit upon something there, in that Muslim marchers are less likely to be "fuelled on beer, weed and 'ooter" on account of (officially) not drinking. The 300,000 were also statistically more likely to be lady demonstrators.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
The inability of PB-ers - and many many others - to put themselves in the minds of British Jews is quite startling and depressing. Theory of Mind means you should be able to do it unless you're properly dumb - or neurodivergent
Within living memory an extremely powerful European nation tried to kill every Jew on earth, and they got as far as killing maybe half of them - and if Hitler had won they could easily have killed 80%. Even today the global Jewish population has not recovered from the Holocaust
And yesterday we had a woman casually yelling "death to all Jews" in a British railway station, and no one doing anything, no outrage, no anger, nothing - apparently...
It was posted in the replies to the Met hate crime Twitter thread, so with any luck that will not be true. As they said, they intend to pursue such reports. I hope they identify her.
And there's plenty of anger about it, even if those in the immediate vicinity didn't express any.
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
What is the psychology of people who seek to magnify and exaggerate the "menace" of the pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you are a racist Islamophobe? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly believe it? Again that’s hard to credit that you regard people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children as a menace.
It's really hard to understand. I'm genuinely puzzled.
That's not what *some*, not all but some, are doing though is it? They're using the rallying point of calling for a ceasefire to share much more sinister and dangerous views. Shouting 'khaybar khaybar ya yahud' isn't asking for a ceasefire. Or 'From the river to the sea' (even on its milder interpretations). Nor is turning up with banners equating Zionism with a disease or Nazism. Or ranting and raving about 'Zionist conspiracies'.
Would that it were just "people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children" but that's quite blatantly not the agenda of some. This is what people are complaining about and rightly say is menacing. Those who don't see it's a problem are in denial and will damage their own cause by letting things go that taint any movement that's supposedly about 'peace'.
Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter is not the same as "ranting and raving about Zionism". Beacause some people shout unacceptable slogans etc. etc. does not mean that everyone who has shows some pro-palestinian sympathies is a raving anti-semite. I read many many comments on this forum which suggest that the two are the same thing.
"Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter" one would hope everyone wants this. And there are of course many on those marches who want a peaceful two state solution. However, denying there's a significant element who are fuelled by hatred of Israel, and yes, Jews (obviously not the same thing but feed each other), including some of the organisers and loudest voices, doesn't help anyone - least of all those who march alongside them hoping for peace, but instead have to accept bigotry as just a part of their movement.
And you think there aren't people on the opposite side fuelled by virulent hatred of Muslims?
You mean the 200 vs 300,000?
No. I mean a huge number fuelled by what is essentially racism.
So where are these people? Who are they threatening? So far as I can tell it is only Jewish people who feel afraid living in Britain today. No other group is fearing for the future of its religious buildings and schools.
What an incredible comment. You seriously think Sadiq Khan could have walked safely through that mob to the Cenotaph? There's no racism? No Islamophobia? No homophobia? What a cosseted life!
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
Well Karl Marx was Jewish.
So was Leon Trotsky
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
He was assassinated at his home in Mexico City by NKVD
Some people think he got an ice pick but i think it was Stranglers
That Jean-Jacques Burnel has a lot to answer for!
Ice-pick, ice-axe? It all adze up to the same result.
Moving swiftly on (ahem), is Braverman going to be sacked tomorrow? Next week? Not at all?
What's the PB consensus?
I think I'm on the side of it not happening. I would quite like it to happen however because I think it could precipitate a vonk.
I'm sceptical too, and suspect a lot of the pressure for Rishi to sack Suella comes from mischief-makers looking to weaken the Prime Minister. Leaving that aside, the timing is awkward because it will mean a new Home Secretary for the Rwanda verdict, and a full-scale reshuffle is hard because the Chancellor's Autumn Statement is imminent.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
The inability of PB-ers - and many many others - to put themselves in the minds of British Jews is quite startling and depressing. Theory of Mind means you should be able to do it unless you're properly dumb - or neurodivergent
Within living memory an extremely powerful European nation tried to kill every Jew on earth, and they got as far as killing maybe half of them - and if Hitler had won they could easily have killed 80%. Even today the global Jewish population has not recovered from the Holocaust
And yesterday we had a woman casually yelling "death to all Jews" in a British railway station, and no one doing anything, no outrage, no anger, nothing - apparently. And this was just one anti-Semitic incident amongst hundreds these last weeks, and many thousands around the world
The virus of Jew-hatred is BACK. Jews are frightened. And anyone with an ounce of empathy can surely see why they are frightened, and share it, no?
Entirely correct. And this should be obvious to all people of good will regardless of where they stand on the particularities of the mutual barbarities that have been and are being meted out in Israel/Palestine.
But it appears this sort of thing is only a problem when it is 'the far right' doing the hate. Of course, it is a problem when we have the far right doing it. But on yesterdays' evidence the far right amounts to about 200 thugs who quite like football and fighting. They are undoubtedly a bad thing, but not really a big thing. Whereas the far left are virulent AND numerous. But it is somehow impolite to criticise them.
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
What is the psychology of people who seek to magnify and exaggerate the "menace" of the pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you are a racist Islamophobe? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly believe it? Again that’s hard to credit that you regard people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children as a menace.
It's really hard to understand. I'm genuinely puzzled.
That's not what *some*, not all but some, are doing though is it? They're using the rallying point of calling for a ceasefire to share much more sinister and dangerous views. Shouting 'khaybar khaybar ya yahud' isn't asking for a ceasefire. Or 'From the river to the sea' (even on its milder interpretations). Nor is turning up with banners equating Zionism with a disease or Nazism. Or ranting and raving about 'Zionist conspiracies'.
Would that it were just "people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children" but that's quite blatantly not the agenda of some. This is what people are complaining about and rightly say is menacing. Those who don't see it's a problem are in denial and will damage their own cause by letting things go that taint any movement that's supposedly about 'peace'.
Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter is not the same as "ranting and raving about Zionism". Beacause some people shout unacceptable slogans etc. etc. does not mean that everyone who has shows some pro-palestinian sympathies is a raving anti-semite. I read many many comments on this forum which suggest that the two are the same thing.
"Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter" one would hope everyone wants this. And there are of course many on those marches who want a peaceful two state solution. However, denying there's a significant element who are fuelled by hatred of Israel, and yes, Jews (obviously not the same thing but feed each other), including some of the organisers and loudest voices, doesn't help anyone - least of all those who march alongside them hoping for peace, but instead have to accept bigotry as just a part of their movement.
And you think there aren't people on the opposite side fuelled by virulent hatred of Muslims?
You mean the 200 vs 300,000?
No. I mean a huge number fuelled by what is essentially racism.
So where are these people? Who are they threatening? So far as I can tell it is only Jewish people who feel afraid living in Britain today. No other group is fearing for the future of its religious buildings and schools.
What an incredible comment. You seriously think Sadiq Khan could have walked safely through that mob to the Cenotaph? There's no racism? No Islamophobia? No homophobia? What a cosseted life!
#MuslimsDontCount
Then how did they invent algebra?
Gives me an excuse to publish my favourite ever poll finding on bigotry.
Electoral Calculus puts it a bit higher, and without taking tatical voting into account.
It gives high and low estimates too. if you take the extreme low for the Tories it is not inconceivable they would not be the Official Opposition. Wonder what odds you could get on that?
At the lowest point of Truss' premiership when the Tories were heading for less than 50 seats maybe. Not now under Sunak where they are in the 100-150 range which would be even below 1997 levels but still firmly keep them the main Opposition, especially with the SNP projected to lose seats to Labour too
Interesting how few on here who were critical of the ceasefire marches are willing to condemn far right violence, instead in some cases bending over backwards to distort reality (‘the Met only policed the far right march not the ceasefire march’ or ‘The EDL-types were only trying to get into Whitehall to pay their respects’).
Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, whoever does it.
No one on PB is excusing the football louts. They were - and I saw them - a bunch of ugly idiots, fulled on beer, weed and 'ooter. I saw one abuse a copper horribly (and escape arrest) - I saw another hurl racist slurs at some Muslim girls. Thoroughly nasty
But they WERE tiny in number, 200-300? And kind of pathetic. Saddos
Across London 300,000 marched, and whatever you think of that march, 300,000 people is impressive and definitely not "pathetic", and is therefore worthy of proportionately more scrutiny
When considering the differential rates of violence, you might have hit upon something there, in that Muslim marchers are less likely to be "fuelled on beer, weed and 'ooter" on account of (officially) not drinking. The 300,000 were also statistically more likely to be lady demonstrators.
I spoke to one riot policeman around 4pm who told me what they were fully expecting - as every march (of this genre) was the same
He said that in general the marches, during the day, were notably good natured and genial - due - he thought - to the presence of so many families, kids, swotty students, young women. He refused to give an opinion on the incendiary chants and placards (and fair enough, it was good of him to talk to me anyway)
He then said that they expected it to kick off once darkness came and the families, etc, went home. leaving behind the young men, in the main. "They will start shooting fireworks at us", and so it was
I suspect a few of the hardcore pro-Pal lot were as drugged up as the Tommy Robinson acolytes. Probably no booze, tho
Paywalled but good analysis of yesterday's protests - nasties and idiots on both the main march and amongst Braverman's Boys. Concludes that the split in British society is a reason for much sadness.
This is nothing new - on every issue of mass protest there is always an uneasy coalition of moderates and radicals. Every time there is a major demonstration I know (and if I know, the Met also knows) there will be those who, either because the cause has radicalised them or simply because they want to, are only interested in violence.
That goes down the spectrum from abusive chanting to outright physical confrontation with the Police via a side order of looting. From the anti-Vietnam War protest at Grosvenor Square through to the Poll Tax riot and beyond, mass public protest has attracted a larger or smaller group bent on more than peaceful protest.
I don't recall problems with CND marches or the anti-Iraq War demonstration or the Countryside Alliance march - why not? Perhaps when you have a suitably broad base of protesters (and especially if there is a strong inter denominational element), such protests become self-policing and those wishing to disrupt are easily identified and identifiable among those wishing only to peacefully protest.
Large scale peaceful protest by a coalition of groups holding a position with considerable public support has to happen in a democratic plural society. The Government of the day may not like it but that's no reason to ban such protests.
Many years back I spoke to a copper whose favourite was NUS (student) demos. Sadly, 20 years or so ago, they too fell foul of the Met's sudden enthusiasm for kettling.
ETA CND, countryside, students, like yesterday's, nigh-on half female.
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
What is the psychology of people who seek to magnify and exaggerate the "menace" of the pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you are a racist Islamophobe? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly believe it? Again that’s hard to credit that you regard people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children as a menace.
It's really hard to understand. I'm genuinely puzzled.
That's not what *some*, not all but some, are doing though is it? They're using the rallying point of calling for a ceasefire to share much more sinister and dangerous views. Shouting 'khaybar khaybar ya yahud' isn't asking for a ceasefire. Or 'From the river to the sea' (even on its milder interpretations). Nor is turning up with banners equating Zionism with a disease or Nazism. Or ranting and raving about 'Zionist conspiracies'.
Would that it were just "people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children" but that's quite blatantly not the agenda of some. This is what people are complaining about and rightly say is menacing. Those who don't see it's a problem are in denial and will damage their own cause by letting things go that taint any movement that's supposedly about 'peace'.
Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter is not the same as "ranting and raving about Zionism". Beacause some people shout unacceptable slogans etc. etc. does not mean that everyone who has shows some pro-palestinian sympathies is a raving anti-semite. I read many many comments on this forum which suggest that the two are the same thing.
"Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter" one would hope everyone wants this. And there are of course many on those marches who want a peaceful two state solution. However, denying there's a significant element who are fuelled by hatred of Israel, and yes, Jews (obviously not the same thing but feed each other), including some of the organisers and loudest voices, doesn't help anyone - least of all those who march alongside them hoping for peace, but instead have to accept bigotry as just a part of their movement.
And you think there aren't people on the opposite side fuelled by virulent hatred of Muslims?
You mean the 200 vs 300,000?
No. I mean a huge number fuelled by what is essentially racism.
So where are these people? Who are they threatening? So far as I can tell it is only Jewish people who feel afraid living in Britain today. No other group is fearing for the future of its religious buildings and schools.
What an incredible comment. You seriously think Sadiq Khan could have walked safely through that mob to the Cenotaph? There's no racism? No Islamophobia? No homophobia? What a cosseted life!
#MuslimsDontCount
Then how did they invent algebra?
Gives me an excuse to publish my favourite ever poll finding on bigotry.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
The inability of PB-ers - and many many others - to put themselves in the minds of British Jews is quite startling and depressing. Theory of Mind means you should be able to do it unless you're properly dumb - or neurodivergent
Within living memory an extremely powerful European nation tried to kill every Jew on earth, and they got as far as killing maybe half of them - and if Hitler had won they could easily have killed 80%. Even today the global Jewish population has not recovered from the Holocaust
And yesterday we had a woman casually yelling "death to all Jews" in a British railway station, and no one doing anything, no outrage, no anger, nothing - apparently...
It was posted in the replies to the Met hate crime Twitter thread, so with any luck that will not be true. As they said, they intend to pursue such reports. I hope they identify her.
And there's plenty of anger about it, even if those in the immediate vicinity didn't express any.
What would you do if someone shouted "Death to all Jews" right next to you at Victoria Station?
This is a serious question, but not a personal one. I've been asking myself the same, ever since I saw the vid
I hope I would have given her a ticking off and told her to shut the F up and go away. But I fear I might have been so shocked - and so used to British politeness - I would have just stood there in silent surprise, gobsmacked and mute
If there is any good to come out of this, it is that these incidents have shaken away any complacency about anti-Semitism. It exists, it is out there, it is deeply nasty, and it needs to be confronted
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
The inability of PB-ers - and many many others - to put themselves in the minds of British Jews is quite startling and depressing. Theory of Mind means you should be able to do it unless you're properly dumb - or neurodivergent
Within living memory an extremely powerful European nation tried to kill every Jew on earth, and they got as far as killing maybe half of them - and if Hitler had won they could easily have killed 80%. Even today the global Jewish population has not recovered from the Holocaust
And yesterday we had a woman casually yelling "death to all Jews" in a British railway station, and no one doing anything, no outrage, no anger, nothing - apparently...
It was posted in the replies to the Met hate crime Twitter thread, so with any luck that will not be true. As they said, they intend to pursue such reports. I hope they identify her.
And there's plenty of anger about it, even if those in the immediate vicinity didn't express any.
What would you do if someone shouted "Death to all Jews" right next to you at Victoria Station?
This is a serious question, but not a personal one. I've been asking myself the same, ever since I saw the vid
I hope I would have given her a ticking off and told her to shut the F up and go away. But I fear I might have been so shocked - and so used to British politeness - I would have just stood there in silent surprise, gobsmacked and mute
If there is any good to come out of this, it is that these incidents have shaken away any complacency about anti-Semitism. It exists, it is out there, it is deeply nasty, and it needs to be confronted
The problem is you say something, the mob reacts, filming starts and if you aren't careful you are the one labelled as a racist.
There was a viral clip a couple of months ago with a lady who was having her bike stolen, reacted, and before she knew it she was labelled as crazy Karen racist lady.
I wish protestors and demonstrators would stick to one topic. Trying to mesh everything into one unified theory of opposition can just lead to confusion and some truly odd combinations.
What is the psychology of people - including PB-ers - who seek to deny or minimise the menace of be pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you don’t want to appear racist? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly don’t believe it? Again that’s hard to credit
So what is it? Is it some political fear of vindicating Suella Braverman? If so, that is pathetic. This is way bigger than party politics
What is the psychology of people who seek to magnify and exaggerate the "menace" of the pro-Palestinians?
I can’t work it out. Is it because you are a racist Islamophobe? Surely not. Is it because - for some reason - you honestly believe it? Again that’s hard to credit that you regard people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children as a menace.
It's really hard to understand. I'm genuinely puzzled.
That's not what *some*, not all but some, are doing though is it? They're using the rallying point of calling for a ceasefire to share much more sinister and dangerous views. Shouting 'khaybar khaybar ya yahud' isn't asking for a ceasefire. Or 'From the river to the sea' (even on its milder interpretations). Nor is turning up with banners equating Zionism with a disease or Nazism. Or ranting and raving about 'Zionist conspiracies'.
Would that it were just "people who are asking for a ceasefire to protect innocent civilians including thousands of children" but that's quite blatantly not the agenda of some. This is what people are complaining about and rightly say is menacing. Those who don't see it's a problem are in denial and will damage their own cause by letting things go that taint any movement that's supposedly about 'peace'.
Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter is not the same as "ranting and raving about Zionism". Beacause some people shout unacceptable slogans etc. etc. does not mean that everyone who has shows some pro-palestinian sympathies is a raving anti-semite. I read many many comments on this forum which suggest that the two are the same thing.
"Wanting that ordinary people in Israel and Palestine have disease free water, food and shelter" one would hope everyone wants this. And there are of course many on those marches who want a peaceful two state solution. However, denying there's a significant element who are fuelled by hatred of Israel, and yes, Jews (obviously not the same thing but feed each other), including some of the organisers and loudest voices, doesn't help anyone - least of all those who march alongside them hoping for peace, but instead have to accept bigotry as just a part of their movement.
And you think there aren't people on the opposite side fuelled by virulent hatred of Muslims?
You mean the 200 vs 300,000?
No. I mean a huge number fuelled by what is essentially racism.
So where are these people? Who are they threatening? So far as I can tell it is only Jewish people who feel afraid living in Britain today. No other group is fearing for the future of its religious buildings and schools.
What an incredible comment. You seriously think Sadiq Khan could have walked safely through that mob to the Cenotaph? There's no racism? No Islamophobia? No homophobia? What a cosseted life!
#MuslimsDontCount
Then how did they invent algebra?
Gives me an excuse to publish my favourite ever poll finding on bigotry.
I wish protestors and demonstrators would stick to one topic. Trying to mesh everything into one unified theory of opposition can just lead to confusion and some truly odd combinations.
A lot of the US pro-Palestine supports are doing just that meshing US racial politics onto the middle east and hence why you get Trans for Terrorists etc.
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
The inability of PB-ers - and many many others - to put themselves in the minds of British Jews is quite startling and depressing. Theory of Mind means you should be able to do it unless you're properly dumb - or neurodivergent
Within living memory an extremely powerful European nation tried to kill every Jew on earth, and they got as far as killing maybe half of them - and if Hitler had won they could easily have killed 80%. Even today the global Jewish population has not recovered from the Holocaust
And yesterday we had a woman casually yelling "death to all Jews" in a British railway station, and no one doing anything, no outrage, no anger, nothing - apparently...
It was posted in the replies to the Met hate crime Twitter thread, so with any luck that will not be true. As they said, they intend to pursue such reports. I hope they identify her.
And there's plenty of anger about it, even if those in the immediate vicinity didn't express any.
What would you do if someone shouted "Death to all Jews" right next to you at Victoria Station?
This is a serious question, but not a personal one. I've been asking myself the same, ever since I saw the vid
I hope I would have given her a ticking off and told her to shut the F up and go away. But I fear I might have been so shocked - and so used to British politeness - I would have just stood there in silent surprise, gobsmacked and mute
If there is any good to come out of this, it is that these incidents have shaken away any complacency about anti-Semitism. It exists, it is out there, it is deeply nasty, and it needs to be confronted
Hopefully so. It's not nice to reflect that we'd probably not react as we feel we should or would if it happened in front of us.
Moving swiftly on (ahem), is Braverman going to be sacked tomorrow? Next week? Not at all?
What's the PB consensus?
I think I'm on the side of it not happening. I would quite like it to happen however because I think it could precipitate a vonk.
I'm sceptical too, and suspect a lot of the pressure for Rishi to sack Suella comes from mischief-makers looking to weaken the Prime Minister. Leaving that aside, the timing is awkward because it will mean a new Home Secretary for the Rwanda verdict, and a full-scale reshuffle is hard because the Chancellor's Autumn Statement is imminent.
If he delayed his reshuffle until Wednesday, he could sack Suella after the Rwanda verdict, and have a reason that didn’t need to be related to the threat to his authority. However, being frit and tactically naive, he won’t.
Electoral Calculus puts it a bit higher, and without taking tatical voting into account.
It gives high and low estimates too. if you take the extreme low for the Tories it is not inconceivable they would not be the Official Opposition. Wonder what odds you could get on that?
At the lowest point of Truss' premiership when the Tories were heading for less than 50 seats maybe. Not now under Sunak where they are in the 100-150 range which would be even below 1997 levels but still firmly keep them the main Opposition, especially with the SNP projected to lose seats to Labour too
The way back from 125 seats won't be easy and after all it took 13 years and a global financial crash to return the party to Government last time.
Vast swings (15-20%) are the exception not the norm so it's a 10-15 year journey. It only took three years from 1997 for the Conservatives to regain a poll lead in 2000 - for all the good it did them the following year.
"Each year on Remembrance Sunday, we assemble at the Cenotaph to honour the sacrifice of the fallen and pay tribute to the servicemen & women we place in harm’s way.
Today - as every day - we will remember them. #LestWeForget"
"Each year on Remembrance Sunday, we assemble at the Cenotaph to honour the sacrifice of the fallen and pay tribute to the servicemen & women we place in harm’s way.
Today - as every day - we will remember them. #LestWeForget"
France is having a march against antisemitism. Jean Luc Melenchon won't be there as he thinks it is a 'rendezvous for unconditional supporters of the massacre' - referring to Gazans. Hopefully it will attract large numbers and might be an inspiration for something in the UK. The figure of Le Pen will loom large, which I don't doubt is a problem for many but hopefully the event is as broadly based as possible.
FPT: great idea. Likewise I hope Le Pen’s sport won’t put others off - I’d be interested in how many would attend this sort of march as well as a ceasefire March. I would.
The Germans have just - apparently - banned the chant "from the river to the sea"
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
I think this is what makes people angry. The sense that the police are engaging in appeasement.
It clearly makes you angry. I don't hear many people talking about it tbh.
You don't think it outrageous that the police thought it necessary to take down pictures of children being held hostage in Gaza?
The inability of PB-ers - and many many others - to put themselves in the minds of British Jews is quite startling and depressing. Theory of Mind means you should be able to do it unless you're properly dumb - or neurodivergent
Within living memory an extremely powerful European nation tried to kill every Jew on earth, and they got as far as killing maybe half of them - and if Hitler had won they could easily have killed 80%. Even today the global Jewish population has not recovered from the Holocaust
And yesterday we had a woman casually yelling "death to all Jews" in a British railway station, and no one doing anything, no outrage, no anger, nothing - apparently...
It was posted in the replies to the Met hate crime Twitter thread, so with any luck that will not be true. As they said, they intend to pursue such reports. I hope they identify her.
And there's plenty of anger about it, even if those in the immediate vicinity didn't express any.
What would you do if someone shouted "Death to all Jews" right next to you at Victoria Station?
This is a serious question, but not a personal one. I've been asking myself the same, ever since I saw the vid
I hope I would have given her a ticking off and told her to shut the F up and go away. But I fear I might have been so shocked - and so used to British politeness - I would have just stood there in silent surprise, gobsmacked and mute
If there is any good to come out of this, it is that these incidents have shaken away any complacency about anti-Semitism. It exists, it is out there, it is deeply nasty, and it needs to be confronted
The problem is you say something, the mob reacts, filming starts and if you aren't careful you are the one labelled as a racist.
There was a viral clip a couple of months ago with a lady who was having her bike stolen, reacted, and before she knew it she was labelled as crazy Karen racist lady.
Very good point
Imagine if you did react, and said "Shut up you stupid woman, shut your filthy mouth and go away" and then someone filmed that but cut the "death to Jews" provocation at the start - suddenly you are a racist man abusing a BME woman and before the entire footage emerges you are cancelled and finished
So, a while back as one of Suella Braverman's constituents, I went to a public meeting about Brexit. As I've mentioned here in an earlier post, she talked about 'cultural marxism'. Now in Fareham we don't 'talk of little else' and I suspect most people including me didn't have a clue what she was on about. Here's James O'Brien enlightening us. It's an anti Jewish conspiracy theory apparently, what a surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JdFw-EU2GM
Not sure whether James O'Brien enlightening us was meant as tongue in cheek. Cultural Marxism is a reality. It's unfortunate that some people absurdly blame it on Jews.
Comments
https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1723468898668822864?t=iwofVHBXAocWxXXiixG2vA&s=19
Bit political, but on the nose.
Because there were many hundreds of dodgy signs and multiple knots of people shooting fireworks, and remember the fireworks came out in the darkness, so you'd be diving into large crowds, at night, to try and isolate firework shooters - actually not feasible, and highly likely to cause a major brawl
Presumably it became easier when a group broke off later that night, hence the kettling (and arrest) of the 150 marchers later on
And as for arresting people for hateful chanting, good luck with that. Two thirds of the people were lustily singing "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" or "5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - Israel is a terror state"
That's 200,000 people you'd need to arrest. QED
But there's a huge failure to see that certain elements of the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel, 'anti-imperialist' etc movement really are toxic and dangerous. And too many are prepared to make excuses for stuff they never would coming from others whose 'cause' they didn't broadly believe in.
Not my fault you two are too dense to realise.
It's not the 25%-29% still voting Tory. Judging from the five polls with fieldwork within the past week, that is since Braverman really kicked off, it's the 23%-26% still voting Tory.
Although given you are a lawyer...
"One of the more intriguing aspects of the scandal is how the Law Commission came to rule that computer evidence could not be challenged.
Are we to see some backtracking....or even an apology? Don't hold your breath."
Guess who was lobbying the Law Commission hard to make that rule change? Yes: you've guessed right! The Post Office.
Please pass Go and collect £200 or £200,000 or £2, any old number, just make it up.
Having got that rule change the PO had no incentive to make sure their computer system worked correctly because it literally could not be challenged.
Quite what the government's law officers thought they were doing letting this change go through, God only knows. It fundamentally shifted the burden of proof from the prosecution to the defence and given the lack of legal aid for the sort of expert evidence needed made it impossible for any defendant to defend themselves.
It is quite possible the whole thing could backfire on them, because voters will think Wait, this is YOUR fault, you should have fixed the boats, you're the government, go jump in a lake = leading to an even worse result than they might have anticipated
The Tories need to move on from Bargaining and work through Depression and get to Acceptance. They are going to lose pretty badly in 2024, the best they can do is govern as competently as possible for the next 12 months and minimise their inevitably dramatic losses
Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, whoever does it.
Happy Diwali everyone.
https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1723752780744020320?t=Vn1HkHFkpSMWG3yFkuOVfA&s=19
The calamity that sunk him was pretty early on in his second term. And the wider party had a chance to come to terms with their doom in the 1995 leadership election. (Is there anyone out there who is going to do better? No, just the Vulcan.)
So the whole party could- sort of- move on to "we're going to lose the election, let's aim at some redemption in the history books". This iteration of the Conservatives doesn't seem to be there yet.
Maybe, Boring Old Starmer notwithstanding, it will be worse than 1997.
But they WERE tiny in number, 200-300? And kind of pathetic. Saddos
Across London 300,000 marched, and whatever you think of that march, 300,000 people is impressive and definitely not "pathetic", and is therefore worthy of proportionately more scrutiny
Their own quality assurance teams were lobbying against the rollout of the software, as there were hundreds of documented bugs in the system, and overruled by the PO management.
How is that not perjury?
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article248478522/Innenministerium-verbietet-antisemtische-Parole-From-the-River-to-the-Sea.html
It would take a brave politician to do that here, and an even braver policeperson to try and enforce it on tens of thousands of protestors
Actually separate from Israel/Gaza more generally.
However, unlike 1997, Starmer will not have the rosy economic legacy Major left for Blair. Inflation and interest rates are higher and growth slower.
Strikes are more likely as public sector unions demand above inflation wage rises. Starmer also lacks Blair's charisma and will win because he is not Sunak and the Tories not because of any great enthusiasm for him.
So the swingback to the Tories is likely to be swifter in the polls than it was in 1997 whatever the result on election night and whoever the next Tory leader is
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/10/rishi-sunak-faces-tory-civil-war-holds-off-sacking-suella-braverman
The Tories are going to drown in their own vomit at this rate.
I think if a British politician ever said that here, of any background or stripe, they'd definitely lose their deposit and their vote count would be a miniscule two figures - if they were lucky.
The latest French presidential poll puts Le Pen comfortably ahead in the first round on 31% to just 25% for Macron's former PM Edouard Philippe (likely candidate for Macron's party as Macron cannot run for a 3rd term) and 14% for Melenchon and 6.5% for Zemmour and 6% for Wauquiez from Les Republicains
https://www.ifop.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/119940-Rapport.pdf
https://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2077413,00.html
Drawing conclusions from current polling us pointless. Ask Teresa May.
Some people think he got an ice pick but i think it was Stranglers
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/11/israel-gaza-london-protest/675979/
More to the point, to reiterate my earlier comment, I don't hear many (indeed away from PB, any) people talking about police appeasement. Only extreme right-wingers like you seem to get worked up about it.
Within living memory an extremely powerful European nation tried to kill every Jew on earth, and they got as far as killing maybe half of them - and if Hitler had won they could easily have killed 80%. Even today the global Jewish population has not recovered from the Holocaust
And yesterday we had a woman casually yelling "death to all Jews" in a British railway station, and no one doing anything, no outrage, no anger, nothing - apparently. And this was just one anti-Semitic incident amongst hundreds these last weeks, and many thousands around the world
The virus of Jew-hatred is BACK. Jews are frightened. And anyone with an ounce of empathy can surely see why they are frightened, and share it, no?
FFS. Hitler was an extreme rightwinger. Goebbels was an extreme rightwinger. Hamas are pretty bloody extreme and fascist - as are the hardcore nutters in Likud
@FrankBooth is a respected PB-er. Describing him as some kind of a Nazi is childish, twattish and idiotic
Fulsome apologies @FrankBooth, I retract my slur.
What's the PB consensus?
It gives high and low estimates too. if you take the extreme low for the Tories it is not inconceivable they would not be the Official Opposition. Wonder what odds you could get on that?
The Law Commission's ruling on computer evidence originates in the ploy some motorists started to use in order to get off speeding offences and the like. They argued that the cameras and speed recording equipment had to be tested to prove guilt. This was impractical, so the LC solved the problem by saying that the technology was always correct until proved otherwise.
We await with bated breath the LC's apology to the Subpostmasters, and the public generally.
That goes down the spectrum from abusive chanting to outright physical confrontation with the Police via a side order of looting. From the anti-Vietnam War protest at Grosvenor Square through to the Poll Tax riot and beyond, mass public protest has attracted a larger or smaller group bent on more than peaceful protest.
I don't recall problems with CND marches or the anti-Iraq War demonstration or the Countryside Alliance march - why not? Perhaps when you have a suitably broad base of protesters (and especially if there is a strong inter denominational element), such protests become self-policing and those wishing to disrupt are easily identified and identifiable among those wishing only to peacefully protest.
Large scale peaceful protest by a coalition of groups holding a position with considerable public support has to happen in a democratic plural society. The Government of the day may not like it but that's no reason to ban such protests.
@Benpointer has apologised and retracted. No one needs to leave!
But I DO need a gin. Later
I hope they identify her.
And there's plenty of anger about it, even if those in the immediate vicinity didn't express any.
Of course, it is a problem when we have the far right doing it. But on yesterdays' evidence the far right amounts to about 200 thugs who quite like football and fighting. They are undoubtedly a bad thing, but not really a big thing. Whereas the far left are virulent AND numerous. But it is somehow impolite to criticise them.
https://twitter.com/jdcivicscience/status/1127285936977522688/photo/1
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/04/opinion/arabic-numerals.html
He said that in general the marches, during the day, were notably good natured and genial - due - he thought - to the presence of so many families, kids, swotty students, young women. He refused to give an opinion on the incendiary chants and placards (and fair enough, it was good of him to talk to me anyway)
He then said that they expected it to kick off once darkness came and the families, etc, went home. leaving behind the young men, in the main. "They will start shooting fireworks at us", and so it was
I suspect a few of the hardcore pro-Pal lot were as drugged up as the Tommy Robinson acolytes. Probably no booze, tho
ETA CND, countryside, students, like yesterday's, nigh-on half female.
Possible Trump charges soon in Michigan. A bit distant, but possible.
This is a serious question, but not a personal one. I've been asking myself the same, ever since I saw the vid
I hope I would have given her a ticking off and told her to shut the F up and go away. But I fear I might have been so shocked - and so used to British politeness - I would have just stood there in silent surprise, gobsmacked and mute
If there is any good to come out of this, it is that these incidents have shaken away any complacency about anti-Semitism. It exists, it is out there, it is deeply nasty, and it needs to be confronted
https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1723766381273919939?s=20
There was a viral clip a couple of months ago with a lady who was having her bike stolen, reacted, and before she knew it she was labelled as crazy Karen racist lady.
I used to be really good at Roman Numerals, but I’ve forgotten how to write 1, 1000, 51, 6, 500. IM LIVID.
I excel at saying 40 in Roman Numerals.
Hopefully so. It's not nice to reflect that we'd probably not react as we feel we should or would if it happened in front of us.
Vast swings (15-20%) are the exception not the norm so it's a 10-15 year journey. It only took three years from 1997 for the Conservatives to regain a poll lead in 2000 - for all the good it did them the following year.
"Each year on Remembrance Sunday, we assemble at the Cenotaph to honour the sacrifice of the fallen and pay tribute to the servicemen & women we place in harm’s way.
Today - as every day - we will remember them. #LestWeForget"
Imagine if you did react, and said "Shut up you stupid woman, shut your filthy mouth and go away" and then someone filmed that but cut the "death to Jews" provocation at the start - suddenly you are a racist man abusing a BME woman and before the entire footage emerges you are cancelled and finished
Not great. So you say nothing?
That made his ears burn