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Just imagine if Boris Johnson was still PM – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    Good evening all!

    Poppy watch: on the Liz Line this evening, only 2 passengers with poppies - a twenty something Muslim couple.

    Lots of people having an after work pint around Spitalfields. These buggers must be getting paid too much.

    What are you doing in Londonistan??
    Work. Two days in a room with lawyers.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    "Gove spent 45 minutes with her one on one"

    I didn't think she was his type.
    Evidently she wasn't.
  • KIRO TV (Seattle) - Election Offices in King, Pierce, Spokane counties evacuated for white power

    https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/election-offices-king-pierce-spokane-counties-evacuated-white-powder/IGH73XS52NGDTMF3O642KMIDQA/
  • MattW said:

    Since I'm being totally off topic down rabbitholes this tea time (or dinner time if it is a hot meal), one for @Eabhal and maybe @Fairliered .

    There's a webinar being put on by Wheels for Wellbeing at 6pm this evening on influencing your Local Councillor about removing anti=wheelchair / anti-cycling barriers from footpaths and bridleways at 6 this evening:
    https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/wheels-for-wellbeing-x-hftf-training-tickets-727361236037

    Have a good evening all.

    Speaking as a pedestrian, I do not want cyclists on the footpath. Or horses.

    (Sunil or PtP might remember there used to be cattle roaming round Wanstead pre-foot and mouth.)
    Three years ago, they tried re-introducing a rare breed of cattle in Wanstead Park, but they were taken away after just a few days due to them being attacked by miscreants. But they did come back in 2021, at least for a few months. And again this year!

    https://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/23893120.cows-make-return-wanstead-park-ted-howden-chalmers-bancrofts/
    Certainly remember the cattle in Wanstead. The buggers used to eat my roses.
  • KIRO TV (Seattle) - Election Offices in King, Pierce, Spokane counties evacuated for white power

    https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/election-offices-king-pierce-spokane-counties-evacuated-white-powder/IGH73XS52NGDTMF3O642KMIDQA/

    For white power is an unfortunate typo and entirely believable with today's GOP. 🤨
  • KING 5 TV (Seattle) - Pierce, King county election offices evacuated while police investigate white powder
    In Pierce County, a note was included along with the white powder.

    TACOMA, Wash. — A hazmat response was initiated in King and Pierce counties after white powder was found at election offices Wednesday.

    The Tacoma Police Department (TPD) said it received a call around 8:45 a.m. Wednesday about an employee at the office who was handling an envelope when a white powder fell out of it.

    The employee was wearing gloves at the time, according to TPD.

    A message inside the envelope that contained the white powder said, "End the election now," according to TPD. Nothing else was written inside the envelope.

    The department responded to the office along with the Tacoma Fire Department and Washington State Patrol.

    TPD said the white powder was tested and confirmed to be baking powder.

    The building was evacuated, and service at the office was delayed for two to three hours, TPD said. The elections office expects to release a smaller amount of election results Wednesday and plans to make up the difference Thursday.

    Officials are working to allow everyone back inside after the situation was mitigated.

    At 10:58 a.m., King County Elections also had fire and hazmat crews respond after a parcel with white powder was found, according to the Renton Police Department.

    At least 250 people, including political observers, were evacuated. They have been given the all-clear.

    No word yet on whether the two incidents were connected in any way.

    No injuries were reported.

    https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/tacoma/hazmat-response-white-powder-note-pierce-county-elections/281-2abb145c-43a9-43de-a364-7d530039dc40
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @nicholaswatt
    And the @BorisJohnson ally says ex PM has not given up hope of a comeback. Three year timetable in three stages is current thinking among some in that circle: 1) Tory election defeat. 2) New Tory leader who then fails. 3) Then the cry: Bring Back Boris
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    Been a busy day.

    Has this Blue Wall poll been covered?

    Labour leads by 4%, the largest lead for Labour in these seats since July.

    Blue Wall VI (5 November):

    Labour 34% (+2)
    Conservative 30% (-6)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (–)
    Reform UK 6% (+2)
    Green 4% (+1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 7 October

    redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-blue-wa…

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1722297954122526917?t=c2lMrlTySsbedpXoo1Ngtg&s=19

    Could Blue Wall voters see themselves voting tactically to keep a party they don't like from winning? (5 November)

    Yes 49% (+5)
    No 36% (-4)
    Don't know 15% (-1)

    Changes +/- 7 October

    redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-blue-wa…

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1722299301768880524?t=yLM0bZ2YItBeCNWhDKnmiw&s=19
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    One for Sunil: I just had to endure a bloody awful cover version of Enjoy the Silence while sitting eating my plant burger.

    Male vocals. Terrible.

    Happily, the original was playing in the pub earlier. And the lawyers didn't come with us to the pub.
  • Foxy said:

    Been a busy day.

    Has this Blue Wall poll been covered?

    Labour leads by 4%, the largest lead for Labour in these seats since July.

    Blue Wall VI (5 November):

    Labour 34% (+2)
    Conservative 30% (-6)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (–)
    Reform UK 6% (+2)
    Green 4% (+1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 7 October

    redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-blue-wa…

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1722297954122526917?t=c2lMrlTySsbedpXoo1Ngtg&s=19

    Could Blue Wall voters see themselves voting tactically to keep a party they don't like from winning? (5 November)

    Yes 49% (+5)
    No 36% (-4)
    Don't know 15% (-1)

    Changes +/- 7 October

    redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-blue-wa…

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1722299301768880524?t=yLM0bZ2YItBeCNWhDKnmiw&s=19

    Broken, sleazy Tories on the slide :lol:
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    Scott_xP said:

    @nicholaswatt
    And the @BorisJohnson ally says ex PM has not given up hope of a comeback. Three year timetable in three stages is current thinking among some in that circle: 1) Tory election defeat. 2) New Tory leader who then fails. 3) Then the cry: Bring Back Boris

    He has injected himself with delusion.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    The Dems are banking on Trump being the nominee . I think it’s highly unlikely he will ever get convicted as it’s hard to find a jury that could return a unanimous verdict but if a miracle happens and he does then Dem plans are in trouble .

    If Trump falls my view is Halley will be the GOP candidate and she will win.
    If Trump fails to get the GOP nomination he will run as an Independent, even if convicted and jailed and without Trump voters voting GOP the GOP candidate will find it virtually impossible to win
    How does Trump fund a campaign?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    More Dorries' gems:

    Sunak said to rely on the advice of a rumoured rabbit killer, Dorries calls Dr No

    Dorries says another member of the movement is “a very frightening individual I have codenamed Dr No”.

    She writes: “He is paid by Central Office, has a pass to No 10 and, some say, Rishi Sunak doesn’t move without first seeking his advice. And yet people can spend years working in No 10 and never hear his name mentioned.

    “Dr No was once on remand in prison for alleged arson. When a girlfriend ended their relationship, it is rumoured that he had her little brother’s pet rabbit chopped into four and nailed to the front door of the family home to greet him when he got home from school, in true Mafia style.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/08/claims-and-conspiracies-and-pulling-the-trigger-on-johnson-dorries-book-tells-all
  • Roger said:

    Roger said:

    MattW said:

    Roger said:


    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    TimS said:

    Roger said:

    Don't know if it affects anyone but the French Senate have backed automatic visas for second home owners. So the roll back of Brexit has started. Hopefully it passes and is just the beginning of a dismantling which will be speeded up when we get a Labour government

    Interesting. Presumably still ones you have to apply and pay for?

    EDIT: looked it up and does indeed look good news https://www.connexionfrance.com/article/French-news/French-senate-backs-automatic-visa-right-for-UK-second-home-owners#

    Ideally that could help me avoid the increasingly frequent holdups at immigration (in other countries, the French never bother) while passport people count up my stamps.
    It should do that and improve the saleability of French properties. Many people I know who like to base themselves there will be delighted.
    The French authorities finally realising that border pedantry only harms their own economy, and that the British are are great source of money no longer worth pissing off just for the hell of it?
    More likely they felt they owed us after an enormous increase in 'Tax Habitation' charges now abolished for non second home owners
    Just been down that rabbithole on French property taxation.

    The idea that you are liable for Tax d'Habitation for the entire year because you had the right to occupy the property on January 1st is very ... French.
    https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/local-property-taxes
    That's just a quirk. I suppose it's fair enough and it's not just to cripple the British as it also applies to the French. I don't know where you are in France but where i am there seems to be an influx of Americans Australians and Irish at the expense of the English. I've never known it as busy as it is now though. PS. Thanks for that link. Interesting
    There goes the Riviera?

    Inevitable of course once they start letting the Irish in!
    I'm more worried about the Americans. At least the Irish didn't bring their cuisine
    So you dare disparage yours truly, not just on one, but on BOTH counts?

    Please note, you can undo your boo-boo, by simply forwarding me airfare and other expenses (for tips, escorts, etc.) along with an invitation for unlimited stay at your guest bungalow.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    The Dems are banking on Trump being the nominee . I think it’s highly unlikely he will ever get convicted as it’s hard to find a jury that could return a unanimous verdict but if a miracle happens and he does then Dem plans are in trouble .

    If Trump falls my view is Halley will be the GOP candidate and she will win.
    If Trump fails to get the GOP nomination he will run as an Independent, even if convicted and jailed and without Trump voters voting GOP the GOP candidate will find it virtually impossible to win
    How does Trump fund a campaign?
    $50 from every redneck in the land.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,581

    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:

    TimS said:

    slade said:

    A mixed bag of local by-elections tomorrow. There is one for Mayor of Hackney - should be a safe Lab hold but watch out for the Green vote. Lab also have a defence in Lewisham. We have a double defence in Powys for independents elected as Lib Dems. There is also a Ind defence in South Holland and Con defences in Lincolnshire and South Kesteven.

    The Lewisham defence is Deptford ward. 3 councillors elected in May last year, all Labour. But the greens are quite a strong second. Pretty much a one and a half horse race but wouldn’t rule out a green gain.

    Lewisham council is one of those examples of the madness of FPTP. 50 councillors out of 50 are from one party. That’s not representative or healthy.
    There's a very strong argument for introducing some form of PR for local elections.
    STV in three member wards would work.
    Would work in what way? If one party is taking all of the seats in FPTP elections then they are most likely a shoe-in to dominate the council and grab all the committees under any form of PR. It is possible to imagine different corner case scenarios but in the real world?
    Yes that's right. One party would dominate but there would be real opposition and residents would have councillors of their party to represent them.

    In Richmond Borough there are 54 seats. LibDems got 48 seats, Greens got 5 (a pact) and the Tories got just one (and he's 92 years old). No Labour at all. That is plainly ridiculous.

    LibDems had 56% of the vote, Tories 27%, Lab 11%, Green 5%.
    With STV in 18 wards, each with 3 seats, the result would have been something like LibDem 30, Tory 15, Lab 6, Green 3. That would be much healthier and democratic, even though the LIbDems would still dominate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Scott_xP said:

    @nicholaswatt
    And the @BorisJohnson ally says ex PM has not given up hope of a comeback. Three year timetable in three stages is current thinking among some in that circle: 1) Tory election defeat. 2) New Tory leader who then fails. 3) Then the cry: Bring Back Boris

    And his safe seat is where, exactly?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    More Dorries' gems:

    Sunak said to rely on the advice of a rumoured rabbit killer, Dorries calls Dr No

    Dorries says another member of the movement is “a very frightening individual I have codenamed Dr No”.

    She writes: “He is paid by Central Office, has a pass to No 10 and, some say, Rishi Sunak doesn’t move without first seeking his advice. And yet people can spend years working in No 10 and never hear his name mentioned.

    “Dr No was once on remand in prison for alleged arson. When a girlfriend ended their relationship, it is rumoured that he had her little brother’s pet rabbit chopped into four and nailed to the front door of the family home to greet him when he got home from school, in true Mafia style.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/08/claims-and-conspiracies-and-pulling-the-trigger-on-johnson-dorries-book-tells-all

    Evil bastard. May he suffer a similar end.
  • One for Sunil: I just had to endure a bloody awful cover version of Enjoy the Silence while sitting eating my plant burger.

    Male vocals. Terrible.

    Happily, the original was playing in the pub earlier. And the lawyers didn't come with us to the pub.

    Maybe it was the Failure cover? They did the tribute album "For the Masses" version.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,152

    KIRO TV (Seattle) - Election Offices in King, Pierce, Spokane counties evacuated for white power

    https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/election-offices-king-pierce-spokane-counties-evacuated-white-powder/IGH73XS52NGDTMF3O642KMIDQA/

    White Power!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Since I'm being totally off topic down rabbitholes this tea time (or dinner time if it is a hot meal), one for @Eabhal and maybe @Fairliered .

    There's a webinar being put on by Wheels for Wellbeing at 6pm this evening on influencing your Local Councillor about removing anti=wheelchair / anti-cycling barriers from footpaths and bridleways at 6 this evening:
    https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/wheels-for-wellbeing-x-hftf-training-tickets-727361236037

    Have a good evening all.

    Speaking as a pedestrian, I do not want cyclists on the footpath. Or horses.

    (Sunil or PtP might remember there used to be cattle roaming round Wanstead pre-foot and mouth.)
    Council officers are much happier to remove space from pedestrians than from motorists, hence the trend of converting paths to dual use, or reducing pavement width to incorporate cycle lanes.

    In Edinburgh this is despite a transport hierarchy, agreed by councillors, that puts pedestrians top and private car drivers last. Frustrating, and undermines local democracy.

    An obvious example of this is the use of the Union Canal towpath as a core cycle route. It's far too narrow, and many cyclists (including the CEO of my firm) end up in the canal itself dodging toddlers/dogs. Despite this, the council want to spend £XX million on a new fancy cycle bridge next to an aqueduct, rather than spending much less on just putting a decent segregated cycle lane on the adjacent road.
    They should invest in building more new roads with dedicated segregated cycle lanes from the beginning.
    The West Approach Road (1974) would work brilliantly as an east-west link. Sadly, unlike the Dutch, they failed to include a cycle lane at the time.
    Its also half a century old, not new.

    Build a brand new road (2025) with a cycle lane from the beginning, no need to repeat the mistakes of a past.
    Missing the point. It is an old railway so no room for cycles, let alone cars.
  • MattW said:

    Since I'm being totally off topic down rabbitholes this tea time (or dinner time if it is a hot meal), one for @Eabhal and maybe @Fairliered .

    There's a webinar being put on by Wheels for Wellbeing at 6pm this evening on influencing your Local Councillor about removing anti=wheelchair / anti-cycling barriers from footpaths and bridleways at 6 this evening:
    https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/wheels-for-wellbeing-x-hftf-training-tickets-727361236037

    Have a good evening all.

    Speaking as a pedestrian, I do not want cyclists on the footpath. Or horses.

    (Sunil or PtP might remember there used to be cattle roaming round Wanstead pre-foot and mouth.)
    Three years ago, they tried re-introducing a rare breed of cattle in Wanstead Park, but they were taken away after just a few days due to them being attacked by miscreants. But they did come back in 2021, at least for a few months. And again this year!

    https://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/23893120.cows-make-return-wanstead-park-ted-howden-chalmers-bancrofts/
    Certainly remember the cattle in Wanstead. The buggers used to eat my roses.
    Apparently they now have electronic collars that make a noise that deters them from approaching the surrounding residential streets.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,152

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Politicians going to scheme and politic and trade favours. That's evidence of politicians being politicians.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Scott_xP said:

    @nicholaswatt
    And the @BorisJohnson ally says ex PM has not given up hope of a comeback. Three year timetable in three stages is current thinking among some in that circle: 1) Tory election defeat. 2) New Tory leader who then fails. 3) Then the cry: Bring Back Boris

    And his safe seat is where, exactly?
    At the end of the Garden Bridge...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    nico679 said:

    The Dems are banking on Trump being the nominee . I think it’s highly unlikely he will ever get convicted as it’s hard to find a jury that could return a unanimous verdict but if a miracle happens and he does then Dem plans are in trouble .

    Trump has already lost the New York case - the only issue is quantum. It could easily be enough to wipe him out. His legal team's entire strategy seems to rely upon provoking the judge into making outbursts they can portray as "gotcha!" moments. Unfortunately for their client, much as they try every trick in the Trump playbook, the judge isn't biting.

    There aren't going to be their attempted manufactured grounds for a mistrial. Nor do there look to be any grounds for it to be overturned on appeal. So Trump will be broke, his sons unemployed. His schtick that he has sold to his supporters of being the Best. Businessman. Ever is going to look like so much hollow words.

    At least one of the juries will convict him. If it is Georgia, he has no route for pardon.

    The Emperor's Clothes are no longer covering his crown jewels. He still has a year to shrivel before our very eyes.
    Today’s witness.

    Ivanka Trump is a lot younger than President Biden & she can’t recall anything.
    https://twitter.com/daviddunn177/status/1722288926717526419
  • Scott_xP said:

    @nicholaswatt
    And the @BorisJohnson ally says ex PM has not given up hope of a comeback. Three year timetable in three stages is current thinking among some in that circle: 1) Tory election defeat. 2) New Tory leader who then fails. 3) Then the cry: Bring Back Boris

    And his safe seat is where, exactly?
    Right now, it doesn't exist.

    I suspect that the theory is that, by 2026/7 or so, things are looking bad for the Conservatives but not so bad that they have no winnable seats. And that a Borisite stooge will stand down to create a vacancy for him.

    There are many reasons to think it won't work (Would CCHQ even allow him back onto the Candidates List? Is any seat safe against a White Suit opposition?) But the plans that came out of the Berlin Bunker in 1945 weren't all that practical, either.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    One for Sunil: I just had to endure a bloody awful cover version of Enjoy the Silence while sitting eating my plant burger.

    Male vocals. Terrible.

    Happily, the original was playing in the pub earlier. And the lawyers didn't come with us to the pub.

    Maybe it was the Failure cover? They did the tribute album "For the Masses" version.
    It's part of an entire album of dodgy covers by various artists.

    Time to escape, I think!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    I prefer the cooking tips to talk of Gaza. TBH
  • Back to when Johnson was a clown like London Mayor it was plain that he simply didn't have it for high office. Good on the campaign stump, maybe. But in the highest office, no. He was an appalling Foreign Secretary, getting N Zagari Ratcliffe extra detention in Iran and then, he was elected as Leader. . . The Tories plainly lost their marbles and put a resolutely unqualified and demonstrably unsuitable person in charge and the shit show continued, with the tragic results of extra lives being taken during the horror of the pandemic. An appalling PM.
  • More Dorries' gems:

    Sunak said to rely on the advice of a rumoured rabbit killer, Dorries calls Dr No

    Dorries says another member of the movement is “a very frightening individual I have codenamed Dr No”.

    She writes: “He is paid by Central Office, has a pass to No 10 and, some say, Rishi Sunak doesn’t move without first seeking his advice. And yet people can spend years working in No 10 and never hear his name mentioned.

    “Dr No was once on remand in prison for alleged arson. When a girlfriend ended their relationship, it is rumoured that he had her little brother’s pet rabbit chopped into four and nailed to the front door of the family home to greet him when he got home from school, in true Mafia style.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/08/claims-and-conspiracies-and-pulling-the-trigger-on-johnson-dorries-book-tells-all

    And you believe this is evidence that we should be giving the likes of Dorries more power?
  • Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:

    TimS said:

    slade said:

    A mixed bag of local by-elections tomorrow. There is one for Mayor of Hackney - should be a safe Lab hold but watch out for the Green vote. Lab also have a defence in Lewisham. We have a double defence in Powys for independents elected as Lib Dems. There is also a Ind defence in South Holland and Con defences in Lincolnshire and South Kesteven.

    The Lewisham defence is Deptford ward. 3 councillors elected in May last year, all Labour. But the greens are quite a strong second. Pretty much a one and a half horse race but wouldn’t rule out a green gain.

    Lewisham council is one of those examples of the madness of FPTP. 50 councillors out of 50 are from one party. That’s not representative or healthy.
    There's a very strong argument for introducing some form of PR for local elections.
    STV in three member wards would work.
    Would work in what way? If one party is taking all of the seats in FPTP elections then they are most likely a shoe-in to dominate the council and grab all the committees under any form of PR. It is possible to imagine different corner case scenarios but in the real world?
    Yes that's right. One party would dominate but there would be real opposition and residents would have councillors of their party to represent them.

    In Richmond Borough there are 54 seats. LibDems got 48 seats, Greens got 5 (a pact) and the Tories got just one (and he's 92 years old). No Labour at all. That is plainly ridiculous.

    LibDems had 56% of the vote, Tories 27%, Lab 11%, Green 5%.
    With STV in 18 wards, each with 3 seats, the result would have been something like LibDem 30, Tory 15, Lab 6, Green 3. That would be much healthier and democratic, even though the LIbDems would still dominate.
    Totally agree, I also live in Richmond borough
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    Andy_JS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For fans of the Post Office Inquiry shitshow - this summary of Elaine Cottam's evidence yesterday by the wonderful Nick Wallis is a must read. The last paragraph pretty much sums it up - https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/what-was-she-drinking-the-elaine-cottam-experience/.

    Quote:

    "The world is full of thick-as-mince, malevolent incompetents like Elaine Cottam. The problems start when they are promoted into positions of power, as the Post Office appears to have done with multiple idiots on multiple occasions. I really hope the Met Police are taking note."
    Thick-as-mince, early dementia, or pretending? Who can say.

    It is a shame we can't just throw the entire PO management in prison and only let them out if they can show some evidence they weren't complicit.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Interesting story:


    Russian disinformation and destabilisation campaign:-
    Stage 1: pay agents to paint Stars of David on Jewish buildings
    Stage 2: use bot networks to splatter these images over Facebook and Twitter as evidence the country is a hotbed of antisemitism
  • In ongoing WA State election tampering situation, now a fourth county reporting - Skagit.

    Other three counties - King (Seattle), Pierce (Tacoma) and Spokane (Ditto) are large metropolitan counties. Whereas Skagit (Mount Vernon) is a mid-size small town / rural county.

    Personally checked with Snohomish (Everett) about half-hour ago, at that time no powder (white or otherwise) no evacuation.

    Note that there are no statewide elections, instead local offices and ballot measures (mostly taxes).

    Further note that MAGA-maniac election deniers have been active in all the counties reported so far.

    At least one is on the ballot, in King County where Doug Basler is running against incumbent Julie Wise.

    About half the expected ballots were counted last night, giving Wise 83.2% versus Basler 16.5%

    Updated results were scheduled to be released 4pm Wed, but at moment zero activity at King Co Elections (from what I can see via webcams) so almost certainly will be some delay.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    TimS said:

    It does seem Suella is lining herself up for post election leadership. If so, and she’s successful, then the Tories are shafted. Or Britain is shafted.

    She’s 10:1 in a couple of places. Badenoch still favourite at 7:2. Cleverly up there and he’s still my pick.

    None of those particularly tempting odds to be honest.

    Or leaders, to be honest.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    Suella has unstoppable momentum at the next Tory leadership contest.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    rcs1000 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Politicians going to scheme and politic and trade favours. That's evidence of politicians being politicians.
    True, but this is subversion of an entire party. There is no shortage of parties in the UK to join if one is fond of social democracy; it's completely unacceptable for a small group of people to attach themselves to a party that doesn't share their views, and affect this type of takeover.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Removed by whom ?

    Whatever the truth or otherwise of this stuff - and an anonymous Tory source is worth precisely nothing in evidentiary terms - you’re now just arguing about the place settings for the last dinner served on the Titanic.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    Nigelb said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Removed by whom ?

    Whatever the truth or otherwise of this stuff - and an anonymous Tory source is worth precisely nothing in evidentiary terms - you’re now just arguing about the place settings for the last dinner served on the Titanic.
    By Rishi Sunak - he is alleged to be the leader.
  • Back to when Johnson was a clown like London Mayor it was plain that he simply didn't have it for high office. Good on the campaign stump, maybe. But in the highest office, no. He was an appalling Foreign Secretary, getting N Zagari Ratcliffe extra detention in Iran and then, he was elected as Leader. . . The Tories plainly lost their marbles and put a resolutely unqualified and demonstrably unsuitable person in charge and the shit show continued, with the tragic results of extra lives being taken during the horror of the pandemic. An appalling PM.

    Yet remarkably his successor was even worse and the jury still out on whether the following one is too. I mean how?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    The Dems are banking on Trump being the nominee . I think it’s highly unlikely he will ever get convicted as it’s hard to find a jury that could return a unanimous verdict but if a miracle happens and he does then Dem plans are in trouble .

    If Trump falls my view is Halley will be the GOP candidate and she will win.
    If Trump fails to get the GOP nomination he will run as an Independent, even if convicted and jailed and without Trump voters voting GOP the GOP candidate will find it virtually impossible to win
    How does Trump fund a campaign?
    Same way he’s always done.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419

    More Dorries' gems:

    Sunak said to rely on the advice of a rumoured rabbit killer, Dorries calls Dr No

    Dorries says another member of the movement is “a very frightening individual I have codenamed Dr No”.

    She writes: “He is paid by Central Office, has a pass to No 10 and, some say, Rishi Sunak doesn’t move without first seeking his advice. And yet people can spend years working in No 10 and never hear his name mentioned.

    “Dr No was once on remand in prison for alleged arson. When a girlfriend ended their relationship, it is rumoured that he had her little brother’s pet rabbit chopped into four and nailed to the front door of the family home to greet him when he got home from school, in true Mafia style.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/08/claims-and-conspiracies-and-pulling-the-trigger-on-johnson-dorries-book-tells-all

    And you believe this is evidence that we should be giving the likes of Dorries more power?
    What on earth are you talking about?
  • Nigelb said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Removed by whom ?

    Whatever the truth or otherwise of this stuff - and an anonymous Tory source is worth precisely nothing in evidentiary terms - you’re now just arguing about the place settings for the last dinner served on the Titanic.
    Or rather, which lounge lizard riffled the cash drawer at the 1st-class lounge, before he doffed his frock and jumped into a life boat.

    Nadine Dorries is type who would change into her best frock, leap into the boat . . . and pitch a baby overboard for more leg room.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    edited November 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Politicians going to scheme and politic and trade favours. That's evidence of politicians being politicians.
    True, but this is subversion of an entire party. There is no shortage of parties in the UK to join if one is fond of social democracy; it's completely unacceptable for a small group of people to attach themselves to a party that doesn't share their views, and affect this type of takeover.
    This is like the necessary mirror image to BJO’s claim that anyone to the right of Laura Pidcock is a Tory.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    rcs1000 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Politicians going to scheme and politic and trade favours. That's evidence of politicians being politicians.
    If we can believe any of Nad’s vapourings.

    Pretty funny to take them seriously in the first place, and even funnier thinking they’re the basis for anything at all other than a bit more intra-party squabbling.
  • Back to when Johnson was a clown like London Mayor it was plain that he simply didn't have it for high office. Good on the campaign stump, maybe. But in the highest office, no. He was an appalling Foreign Secretary, getting N Zagari Ratcliffe extra detention in Iran and then, he was elected as Leader. . . The Tories plainly lost their marbles and put a resolutely unqualified and demonstrably unsuitable person in charge and the shit show continued, with the tragic results of extra lives being taken during the horror of the pandemic. An appalling PM.

    That's the thing though. Completely unsuited to high office though he clearly was (and would prove to be), electing Johnson in 2019 was an entirely logical thing to do, if Tory MPs' prime motivations were saving Brexit and keeping Corbyn out of No 10 - a man even less suited to being PM.

    Back in June 2019, the Tories were staring into the abyss. Farage's Brexit Party was leading them in the polls, though it was close to a four-way tie; they'd just been hammered into fifth place in the Euro-elections, with a single-digit share of the vote. May's deal was clearly dead and no mainstream candidate really had a better plan given the parliamentary numbers and polling. Johnson was the sole individual who could break that deadlock because - if you really had to explain it - he was the only one prepared to lie and bluff his way out.

    From a self-preservation mode, the Tories needed someone who could see off Farage even more than Corbyn, not least because Farage had to be seen off first but also because Labour can never pose an existential threat to the Tories whereas an alternative right-of-centre party could. Plus, Corbyn was so unpopular by mid-2019 there was a decent chance that any Tory leader could beat him, providing the threat from the populist right was dealt with first.

    Of course, that would leave quite a legacy problem ...
  • Back to when Johnson was a clown like London Mayor it was plain that he simply didn't have it for high office. Good on the campaign stump, maybe. But in the highest office, no. He was an appalling Foreign Secretary, getting N Zagari Ratcliffe extra detention in Iran and then, he was elected as Leader. . . The Tories plainly lost their marbles and put a resolutely unqualified and demonstrably unsuitable person in charge and the shit show continued, with the tragic results of extra lives being taken during the horror of the pandemic. An appalling PM.

    Yet remarkably his successor was even worse and the jury still out on whether the following one is too. I mean how?
    Becasue Boris put them in pole position to follow him? Either he knew what he was trying to do (in which case, it's his fault for being Machiavellian) or he didn't have a clue (in which case, it's his fault for being dumb).
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    An interesting article from the Atlantic:

    "Peace is impossible while Vladimir Putin denies Ukraine’s right to exist"

    https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/peace-is-impossible-while-vladimir-putin-denies-ukraines-right-to-exist/

    Of course, the same thing can be said for another trouble spit: Peace is impossible while Hamas denies Israel's right to exist...

    I'm not sure Israel is completely sound on Hamas's right to exist after the 7th October outrages, which is where the parallel with Russia/Ukraine breaks down.
    Indeed, there are many members of Israel's governing coalition who (publicly) believe in the River to the Sea, only for the State of Israel, rather than the State of Palestine.
    Israel is a democracy, and in democracies people have all sorts of views.

    Its not the stated or public view of Israel in general or most Israelis even if a few extremists hold that view.
    Itamar Ben-Gvir is the leader of Jewish Power, and a member of the Israeli cabinet.
    Yes, and we have Jacob Rees Mogg who's been a member of the British cabinet.

    Democracies have a broad spectrum of elected politicians, Israel is no different. It is a democracy, democracies aren't supposed to only have a single view on subjects.

    The overwhelming majority of Israelis vote for parties still at least theoretically in favour of a two state solution, as even Netanyahu and Likud still claim to be.

    Though there's a world of difference between denying an existing state's right to exist (like Israel), and a potential theoretical future state's right to exist (like Palestine, Kurdistan etc).

    Turkey deny Kurdistan's right to exist, is that outrageous of them?
    Yes, it is outrageous of them. However, the Kurdish PKK is also regarded as a terrorist organisation in Turkey. Following the example of Israel, this presumably means you would regard Turkey as being justified in waging all-out war on the Kurds after the next PKK attack?
  • Back to when Johnson was a clown like London Mayor it was plain that he simply didn't have it for high office. Good on the campaign stump, maybe. But in the highest office, no. He was an appalling Foreign Secretary, getting N Zagari Ratcliffe extra detention in Iran and then, he was elected as Leader. . . The Tories plainly lost their marbles and put a resolutely unqualified and demonstrably unsuitable person in charge and the shit show continued, with the tragic results of extra lives being taken during the horror of the pandemic. An appalling PM.

    Yet remarkably his successor was even worse and the jury still out on whether the following one is too. I mean how?
    Becasue Boris put them in pole position to follow him? Either he knew what he was trying to do (in which case, it's his fault for being Machiavellian) or he didn't have a clue (in which case, it's his fault for being dumb).
    Not blaming Boris individually for this one. Although kicking out the sensibles to create the us against them Brexit narrative obviously a part of it, but this is mostly down to Tory members and MPs as a whole. Boris didn't plan for a successor as he thought he could ride it out with bluster.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Politicians going to scheme and politic and trade favours. That's evidence of politicians being politicians.
    True, but this is subversion of an entire party. There is no shortage of parties in the UK to join if one is fond of social democracy; it's completely unacceptable for a small group of people to attach themselves to a party that doesn't share their views, and affect this type of takeover.
    This is like the necessary mirror image to BJO’s claim that anyone to the right of Laura Pidcock is a Tory.
    I am detached from the Labour Party's squabbles, but I have some sympathy for that view too. The public should know what people stand for when they vote for them. All four main parties in the UK at the moment have a very similar (and in my opinion damaging and illiberal) policy agenda, separated only by the narcissism of small differences. That's bad for democracy and the signs are that it ain't great for the country either.
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-67363645

    So much wrong with this story.

    Why are the mobile companies allowed to charge these extortionate amounts?
    Why is the Scottish government paying it instead of the minister?
    Why is the minister not resigning or paying it out of salary?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Politicians going to scheme and politic and trade favours. That's evidence of politicians being politicians.
    If we can believe any of Nad’s vapourings.

    Pretty funny to take them seriously in the first place, and even funnier thinking they’re the basis for anything at all other than a bit more intra-party squabbling.
    I was rather hoping that behind the gaffes and buffoonery there was some serious work going on. Increasingly obvious that the real mad stuff was even worse.

    Has there been a more chaotic government in British history?
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,130

    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Politicians going to scheme and politic and trade favours. That's evidence of politicians being politicians.
    True, but this is subversion of an entire party. There is no shortage of parties in the UK to join if one is fond of social democracy; it's completely unacceptable for a small group of people to attach themselves to a party that doesn't share their views, and affect this type of takeover.
    This is like the necessary mirror image to BJO’s claim that anyone to the right of Laura Pidcock is a Tory.
    I am detached from the Labour Party's squabbles, but I have some sympathy for that view too. The public should know what people stand for when they vote for them. All four main parties in the UK at the moment have a very similar (and in my opinion damaging and illiberal) policy agenda, separated only by the narcissism of small differences. That's bad for democracy and the signs are that it ain't great for the country either.
    Well, that's the first past the post system for you. When the incentives are for the big parties to aim to be just slightly to their side of the electoral middle, it's not surprising that that's what you often get.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Scott_xP said:

    @nicholaswatt
    And the @BorisJohnson ally says ex PM has not given up hope of a comeback. Three year timetable in three stages is current thinking among some in that circle: 1) Tory election defeat. 2) New Tory leader who then fails. 3) Then the cry: Bring Back Boris

    He has injected himself with delusion.
    Probably, but all three of those stages will probably happen in some order, even if it does not help him come back, since it is time for a new political generation (political generation meaning it could be someone who has been around for awhile, or someone new, so long as they have not been part of the power players).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:

    TimS said:

    slade said:

    A mixed bag of local by-elections tomorrow. There is one for Mayor of Hackney - should be a safe Lab hold but watch out for the Green vote. Lab also have a defence in Lewisham. We have a double defence in Powys for independents elected as Lib Dems. There is also a Ind defence in South Holland and Con defences in Lincolnshire and South Kesteven.

    The Lewisham defence is Deptford ward. 3 councillors elected in May last year, all Labour. But the greens are quite a strong second. Pretty much a one and a half horse race but wouldn’t rule out a green gain.

    Lewisham council is one of those examples of the madness of FPTP. 50 councillors out of 50 are from one party. That’s not representative or healthy.
    There's a very strong argument for introducing some form of PR for local elections.
    STV in three member wards would work.
    Would work in what way? If one party is taking all of the seats in FPTP elections then they are most likely a shoe-in to dominate the council and grab all the committees under any form of PR. It is possible to imagine different corner case scenarios but in the real world?
    Yes that's right. One party would dominate but there would be real opposition and residents would have councillors of their party to represent them.

    In Richmond Borough there are 54 seats. LibDems got 48 seats, Greens got 5 (a pact) and the Tories got just one (and he's 92 years old). No Labour at all. That is plainly ridiculous.

    LibDems had 56% of the vote, Tories 27%, Lab 11%, Green 5%.
    With STV in 18 wards, each with 3 seats, the result would have been something like LibDem 30, Tory 15, Lab 6, Green 3. That would be much healthier and democratic, even though the LIbDems would still dominate.
    Totally agree, I also live in Richmond borough
    I hate multi seat wards. Recipe for confusion, resentment, and division between people who should be trying to operate.
  • Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Politicians going to scheme and politic and trade favours. That's evidence of politicians being politicians.
    If we can believe any of Nad’s vapourings.

    Pretty funny to take them seriously in the first place, and even funnier thinking they’re the basis for anything at all other than a bit more intra-party squabbling.
    I was rather hoping that behind the gaffes and buffoonery there was some serious work going on. Increasingly obvious that the real mad stuff was even worse.

    Has there been a more chaotic government in British history?
    The Thick of It? Nah, still not even close.
  • Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:

    TimS said:

    slade said:

    A mixed bag of local by-elections tomorrow. There is one for Mayor of Hackney - should be a safe Lab hold but watch out for the Green vote. Lab also have a defence in Lewisham. We have a double defence in Powys for independents elected as Lib Dems. There is also a Ind defence in South Holland and Con defences in Lincolnshire and South Kesteven.

    The Lewisham defence is Deptford ward. 3 councillors elected in May last year, all Labour. But the greens are quite a strong second. Pretty much a one and a half horse race but wouldn’t rule out a green gain.

    Lewisham council is one of those examples of the madness of FPTP. 50 councillors out of 50 are from one party. That’s not representative or healthy.
    There's a very strong argument for introducing some form of PR for local elections.
    STV in three member wards would work.
    Would work in what way? If one party is taking all of the seats in FPTP elections then they are most likely a shoe-in to dominate the council and grab all the committees under any form of PR. It is possible to imagine different corner case scenarios but in the real world?
    Yes that's right. One party would dominate but there would be real opposition and residents would have councillors of their party to represent them.

    In Richmond Borough there are 54 seats. LibDems got 48 seats, Greens got 5 (a pact) and the Tories got just one (and he's 92 years old). No Labour at all. That is plainly ridiculous.

    LibDems had 56% of the vote, Tories 27%, Lab 11%, Green 5%.
    With STV in 18 wards, each with 3 seats, the result would have been something like LibDem 30, Tory 15, Lab 6, Green 3. That would be much healthier and democratic, even though the LIbDems would still dominate.
    63 seats in Redbridge = 58 Labour, 5 Tory. Labour got 58%, Tories 33%, LDs 5%, Green 2%.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,400

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Oh, FFS. Gove did more at Education for 'conservative policies in the Tory Party' than Truss did in her entire career, never mind Dorries.

    Tory MPs did not need 'controlling' to dump either Johnson or Truss, both of whose demises were self-inflicted and, in the case of Johnson, could have come a good deal earlier had MPs shown some spine and conscience.
    Unfortunately all Gove's policies at Education, whilst soundly Conservative, have been utterly disastrous.
    Until Conservatives realise that simply being Conservative doesn't necessarily make you right, efficient or moral then we're getting nowhere
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Back to when Johnson was a clown like London Mayor it was plain that he simply didn't have it for high office. Good on the campaign stump, maybe. But in the highest office, no. He was an appalling Foreign Secretary, getting N Zagari Ratcliffe extra detention in Iran and then, he was elected as Leader. . . The Tories plainly lost their marbles and put a resolutely unqualified and demonstrably unsuitable person in charge and the shit show continued, with the tragic results of extra lives being taken during the horror of the pandemic. An appalling PM.

    Yet remarkably his successor was even worse and the jury still out on whether the following one is too. I mean how?
    Becasue Boris put them in pole position to follow him? Either he knew what he was trying to do (in which case, it's his fault for being Machiavellian) or he didn't have a clue (in which case, it's his fault for being dumb).
    Not blaming Boris individually for this one. Although kicking out the sensibles to create the us against them Brexit narrative obviously a part of it, but this is mostly down to Tory members and MPs as a whole. Boris didn't plan for a successor as he thought he could ride it out with bluster.
    Blaming elected political leaders for not having a succession plan is one of those criticisms that just never really lands for me.

    It's pretty darn rare for a start, its questionable they could manage it even if they tried (when they go it may well be because they are now unpopular and anything they tried to set up may not be best for the next stage), and of course they focus on sustaining themselves rather than imagining who will follow.
  • Thoughts and prayers with HYUFD


  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Braverman is a fxcking disgrace . She wants trouble at the weekend and if Sunak wasn’t so spineless he’d sack her .

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    dixiedean said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Oh, FFS. Gove did more at Education for 'conservative policies in the Tory Party' than Truss did in her entire career, never mind Dorries.

    Tory MPs did not need 'controlling' to dump either Johnson or Truss, both of whose demises were self-inflicted and, in the case of Johnson, could have come a good deal earlier had MPs shown some spine and conscience.
    Until Conservatives realise that simply being Conservative doesn't necessarily make you right, efficient or moral then we're getting nowhere
    That is kind of the point of being in a political party of course. Everyone knows their own party will be a confused mess sometimes, there's too many issues in the world for it not to be the case, but even when they don't have a plan they will presume their party being in charge because they are 'better' is the right choice. If they didn't they'd be in a different party!
  • Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Politicians going to scheme and politic and trade favours. That's evidence of politicians being politicians.
    If we can believe any of Nad’s vapourings.

    Pretty funny to take them seriously in the first place, and even funnier thinking they’re the basis for anything at all other than a bit more intra-party squabbling.
    And ND's next bodice-ripper? That is, for fun AND profit!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited November 2023

    Thoughts and prayers with HYUFD


    So Sanchez and his minority Socialist government are now puppets of Catalan nationalists in order to hold onto power.

    That will also likely lead to a further backlash to the PP and Vox from Spanish patriots.

    What could have happened here in the UK in 2015 had Ed Miliband led a minority Labour government reliant on SNP support has now literally happened in Spain
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    pm215 said:

    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Politicians going to scheme and politic and trade favours. That's evidence of politicians being politicians.
    True, but this is subversion of an entire party. There is no shortage of parties in the UK to join if one is fond of social democracy; it's completely unacceptable for a small group of people to attach themselves to a party that doesn't share their views, and affect this type of takeover.
    This is like the necessary mirror image to BJO’s claim that anyone to the right of Laura Pidcock is a Tory.
    I am detached from the Labour Party's squabbles, but I have some sympathy for that view too. The public should know what people stand for when they vote for them. All four main parties in the UK at the moment have a very similar (and in my opinion damaging and illiberal) policy agenda, separated only by the narcissism of small differences. That's bad for democracy and the signs are that it ain't great for the country either.
    Well, that's the first past the post system for you. When the incentives are for the big parties to aim to be just slightly to their side of the electoral middle, it's not surprising that that's what you often get.
    Yes, but all other things being equal, you'd expect that electoral middle to agglomerate around popular policies. Spending £3 Trillion on Net Zero is an extreme policy, and that seems more like the 4 main parties (along with the Civil Service) enforcing a 'middle' that nobody actually wants.
  • Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:

    TimS said:

    slade said:

    A mixed bag of local by-elections tomorrow. There is one for Mayor of Hackney - should be a safe Lab hold but watch out for the Green vote. Lab also have a defence in Lewisham. We have a double defence in Powys for independents elected as Lib Dems. There is also a Ind defence in South Holland and Con defences in Lincolnshire and South Kesteven.

    The Lewisham defence is Deptford ward. 3 councillors elected in May last year, all Labour. But the greens are quite a strong second. Pretty much a one and a half horse race but wouldn’t rule out a green gain.

    Lewisham council is one of those examples of the madness of FPTP. 50 councillors out of 50 are from one party. That’s not representative or healthy.
    There's a very strong argument for introducing some form of PR for local elections.
    STV in three member wards would work.
    Would work in what way? If one party is taking all of the seats in FPTP elections then they are most likely a shoe-in to dominate the council and grab all the committees under any form of PR. It is possible to imagine different corner case scenarios but in the real world?
    Yes that's right. One party would dominate but there would be real opposition and residents would have councillors of their party to represent them.

    In Richmond Borough there are 54 seats. LibDems got 48 seats, Greens got 5 (a pact) and the Tories got just one (and he's 92 years old). No Labour at all. That is plainly ridiculous.

    LibDems had 56% of the vote, Tories 27%, Lab 11%, Green 5%.
    With STV in 18 wards, each with 3 seats, the result would have been something like LibDem 30, Tory 15, Lab 6, Green 3. That would be much healthier and democratic, even though the LIbDems would still dominate.
    63 seats in Redbridge = 58 Labour, 5 Tory. Labour got 58%, Tories 33%, LDs 5%, Green 2%.
    This year in Wakefield MDC:

    Lab 52.7% - 20 seats
    LD 5.1% - 1 seat
    Others 42.2% - 0 seats
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited November 2023

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Oh, FFS. Gove did more at Education for 'conservative policies in the Tory Party' than Truss did in her entire career, never mind Dorries.

    Tory MPs did not need 'controlling' to dump either Johnson or Truss, both of whose demises were self-inflicted and, in the case of Johnson, could have come a good deal earlier had MPs shown some spine and conscience.
    I can totally accept the presence of factions vying for influence within a political party to control its direction.

    I don't really see why that is a surprise or concerning or a coup. That's how political parties change their approaches and leadership, and if they screw it up they suffer big for it as the electorate punishes them for internal chaos or for being crap.

    If there's a market for conservative approaches, and there is, and none of the traditional parties offer it then it will go elsewhere, at the least punishing the group people think should be offering it, at which point they will change their tune.

    Talk of coups just comes across as saying MPs should not be permitted to change their leaders, but they have always been able to and sometimes have - Parliament collectively holds the power, even if day to day they rarely exercise it and let the government increase its power.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited November 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Thoughts and prayers with HYUFD


    So Sanchez and his minority Socialist government are now puppets of Catalan nationalists in order to hold onto power.

    That will also likely lead to a further backlash to the PP and Vox from Spanish patriots.

    What could have happened here in the UK in 2015 had Ed Miliband led a minority Labour government reliant on SNP support has now literally happened in Spain
    Are they prepared for chaos with Pedro Sanchez?

    Besides, he's been PM for 5 years, if he lasts several more as you've noted in places like Canada it wouldn't be a surprise to lose next time in any case.
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-67363645

    So much wrong with this story.

    Why are the mobile companies allowed to charge these extortionate amounts?
    Why is the Scottish government paying it instead of the minister?
    Why is the minister not resigning or paying it out of salary?

    And how did he rack up such a bill? Must have been a hell of lot of videos. I wonder what sort.......?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    HYUFD said:

    Thoughts and prayers with HYUFD


    So Sanchez is now a puppet of Catalan nationalists in order to hold onto power.

    That will also likely lead to a further backlash to the PP and Vox from Spanish patriots
    Not a good look for Sanchez and this looks like short termism with no view for how this will impact things in the future . I’m of course relieved that Vox won’t be in government but don’t think he should have made this move . I think he could have came out on top in another election.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    kle4 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Oh, FFS. Gove did more at Education for 'conservative policies in the Tory Party' than Truss did in her entire career, never mind Dorries.

    Tory MPs did not need 'controlling' to dump either Johnson or Truss, both of whose demises were self-inflicted and, in the case of Johnson, could have come a good deal earlier had MPs shown some spine and conscience.
    I can totally accept the presence of factions vying for influence within a political party to control its direction.

    I don't really see why that is a surprise or concerning or a coup. That's how political parties change their approaches and leadership, and if they screw it up they suffer big for it as the electorate punishes them for internal chaos or for being crap.

    If there's a market for conservative approaches, and there is, and none of the traditional parties offer it then it will go elsewhere, at the least punishing the group people think should be offering it, at which point they will change their tune.

    Talk of coups just comes across as saying MPs should not be permitted to change their leaders, but they have always been able to and sometimes have - Parliament collectively holds the power, even if day to day they rarely exercise it and let the government increase its power.
    I'd be interested if you can find any posts that you made during the Corbynite/Momentum ascendancy in Labour that showed a similar ludicrous insouciance about the process.
  • kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:

    TimS said:

    slade said:

    A mixed bag of local by-elections tomorrow. There is one for Mayor of Hackney - should be a safe Lab hold but watch out for the Green vote. Lab also have a defence in Lewisham. We have a double defence in Powys for independents elected as Lib Dems. There is also a Ind defence in South Holland and Con defences in Lincolnshire and South Kesteven.

    The Lewisham defence is Deptford ward. 3 councillors elected in May last year, all Labour. But the greens are quite a strong second. Pretty much a one and a half horse race but wouldn’t rule out a green gain.

    Lewisham council is one of those examples of the madness of FPTP. 50 councillors out of 50 are from one party. That’s not representative or healthy.
    There's a very strong argument for introducing some form of PR for local elections.
    STV in three member wards would work.
    Would work in what way? If one party is taking all of the seats in FPTP elections then they are most likely a shoe-in to dominate the council and grab all the committees under any form of PR. It is possible to imagine different corner case scenarios but in the real world?
    Yes that's right. One party would dominate but there would be real opposition and residents would have councillors of their party to represent them.

    In Richmond Borough there are 54 seats. LibDems got 48 seats, Greens got 5 (a pact) and the Tories got just one (and he's 92 years old). No Labour at all. That is plainly ridiculous.

    LibDems had 56% of the vote, Tories 27%, Lab 11%, Green 5%.
    With STV in 18 wards, each with 3 seats, the result would have been something like LibDem 30, Tory 15, Lab 6, Green 3. That would be much healthier and democratic, even though the LIbDems would still dominate.
    Totally agree, I also live in Richmond borough
    I hate multi seat wards. Recipe for confusion, resentment, and division between people who should be trying to operate.
    It really doesn't work like that in my experience (and my experience is having been a councillor in a split Con/Lab and Con/Grn ward). Co-operation on ward matters is the norm.
  • nico679 said:

    Braverman is a fxcking disgrace . She wants trouble at the weekend and if Sunak wasn’t so spineless he’d sack her .

    She does know that only the top two leadership candidates get put forward by MPs to the membership doesn't she?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thoughts and prayers with HYUFD


    So Sanchez is now a puppet of Catalan nationalists in order to hold onto power.

    That will also likely lead to a further backlash to the PP and Vox from Spanish patriots
    Not a good look for Sanchez and this looks like short termism with no view for how this will impact things in the future . I’m of course relieved that Vox won’t be in government but don’t think he should have made this move . I think he could have came out on top in another election.
    Last 3 Spanish polls have the PP up from 33% in the last election in July to 35-37% now squeezing Vox, the Socialists of Sanchez are unchanged on 31%
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Spanish_general_election
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-67363645

    So much wrong with this story.

    Why are the mobile companies allowed to charge these extortionate amounts?
    Why is the Scottish government paying it instead of the minister?
    Why is the minister not resigning or paying it out of salary?

    And how did he rack up such a bill? Must have been a hell of lot of videos. I wonder what sort.......?
    He was only allowed out of the country on condition that he watched the collected speeches of Nicola Sturgeon on repeat.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thoughts and prayers with HYUFD


    So Sanchez and his minority Socialist government are now puppets of Catalan nationalists in order to hold onto power.

    That will also likely lead to a further backlash to the PP and Vox from Spanish patriots.

    What could have happened here in the UK in 2015 had Ed Miliband led a minority Labour government reliant on SNP support has now literally happened in Spain
    Are they prepared for chaos with Pedro Sanchez?

    Besides, he's been PM for 5 years, if he lasts several more as you've noted in places like Canada it wouldn't be a surprise to lose next time in any case.
    It is the more the chaos that will result, rightwingers are already protesting outside Socialist HQ and even former Socialist PM Gonzales has criticised this deal with the Catalan nationalists
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67355299
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited November 2023

    kle4 said:

    Nadine Dorries' allegations of a 'mafia' at the heart of the Tories are fascinating and ring sonorously true:

    "...Express.co.uk has learnt that Truss had a fateful meeting with Gove a week before the party conference last year.

    A source claimed: “Gove spent 45 minutes with her one to one the week before Conference. He pledged his support in return for us giving his ‘boys’ jobs.

    “Next Sunday he launched the wave of attacks at Conference that crippled us.”

    In both coups the control of MPs was essential..."
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1831510/nadine-dorries-book-tory-mafia-boris-johnson

    It really is quite incendiary. It's a deliberate plot to undermine and neuter conservative politics in the Tory Party, and by extension the UK. Dougie Smith and the rest of his deeply unattractive cabal should be removed pending a full investigation.

    Oh, FFS. Gove did more at Education for 'conservative policies in the Tory Party' than Truss did in her entire career, never mind Dorries.

    Tory MPs did not need 'controlling' to dump either Johnson or Truss, both of whose demises were self-inflicted and, in the case of Johnson, could have come a good deal earlier had MPs shown some spine and conscience.
    I can totally accept the presence of factions vying for influence within a political party to control its direction.

    I don't really see why that is a surprise or concerning or a coup. That's how political parties change their approaches and leadership, and if they screw it up they suffer big for it as the electorate punishes them for internal chaos or for being crap.

    If there's a market for conservative approaches, and there is, and none of the traditional parties offer it then it will go elsewhere, at the least punishing the group people think should be offering it, at which point they will change their tune.

    Talk of coups just comes across as saying MPs should not be permitted to change their leaders, but they have always been able to and sometimes have - Parliament collectively holds the power, even if day to day they rarely exercise it and let the government increase its power.
    I'd be interested if you can find any posts that you made during the Corbynite/Momentum ascendancy in Labour that showed a similar ludicrous insouciance about the process.
    I would have disagreed that takeover would be good for the party or the country, but I wouldn't see it as a problem of the party system - if that is what the party's members wanted, that is their choice, and if it is a bad one it would not work and someone else would enjoy success. I voted in Tory in 2017 because of that choice.

    I certainly did find Momentum on a different level, mostly because of the formalised nature of a party within a party looking like the goal of replacing the party machinery, rather than loose factions contesting control.

    That's why I enjoyed the attempt at creating alternative parties such as ChangeK and support people leaving parties to join others, where they may well fit more appropriately, rather than sticking it out in parties which are clearly no longer gitting their values. Leaving to join UKIP or Alba or to cross the floor, when done for ideological reasons, I regard as a positive - the more parties the better.

    I'm not sure why you find it ludicrous. That people use terms like coup to describe factions in a party fighting is ludicrous, unless it's just colourful expression.

    I happen to think that the Conservative party abandoning conservative approaches (at least as a core theme, no party is entirely consistent) would be a mistake - I've voted Tory before, and have not voted Labour before, and whilst for example the Braverman tendency is not my preference, it's hardly a good thing if all the main parties are indistinguishable.

    Where parties are not very strict on ideology, and no party with millions of votes is, I'm not sure where it leaves us if it is treachery and coup plotting for MPs and members to agitate against each other.
  • Braverman in full on attack on the police tonight in Times.

    When's her next speech to the police federation conference?

    I will get some popcorn ordered.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    nico679 said:

    Braverman is a fxcking disgrace . She wants trouble at the weekend and if Sunak wasn’t so spineless he’d sack her .

    She does know that only the top two leadership candidates get put forward by MPs to the membership doesn't she?
    Yes but are the Tory MPs any more sane than the membership?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Braverman in full on attack on the police tonight in Times.

    When's her next speech to the police federation conference?

    I will get some popcorn ordered.

    They often deserve it and don't receive it enough, so irrespective of the nature of the criticism it may be a useful experience for them.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Thoughts and prayers with HYUFD


    Tanks heading out of Epping towards the Channel Tunnel as we speak.
  • In Seattle, KING TV reporting that powder that caused evacuation at King Co Elections tested & confirmed as fentanyl.

    KCE is back up and running, processing election ballots received in drop boxes Tuesday evening, and in mail via USPS this morning.

    Pierce Co also reopened its election office for ballot processing, but Spokane Co stayed closed today, will resume tomorrow morning.

    No word re: Skagit County.

    Note that yours truly has been an election observer at all four of county election offices. I know many election workers. Back in the day, decades ago, I was observing when suspicious substances started turning up in returned ballots, and election workers had to start wearing gloves to protect themselves.

    You have NO conception of how much this - or any other -form of election tampering pisses me off.

    But go ahead and take a guess.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:

    TimS said:

    slade said:

    A mixed bag of local by-elections tomorrow. There is one for Mayor of Hackney - should be a safe Lab hold but watch out for the Green vote. Lab also have a defence in Lewisham. We have a double defence in Powys for independents elected as Lib Dems. There is also a Ind defence in South Holland and Con defences in Lincolnshire and South Kesteven.

    The Lewisham defence is Deptford ward. 3 councillors elected in May last year, all Labour. But the greens are quite a strong second. Pretty much a one and a half horse race but wouldn’t rule out a green gain.

    Lewisham council is one of those examples of the madness of FPTP. 50 councillors out of 50 are from one party. That’s not representative or healthy.
    There's a very strong argument for introducing some form of PR for local elections.
    STV in three member wards would work.
    Would work in what way? If one party is taking all of the seats in FPTP elections then they are most likely a shoe-in to dominate the council and grab all the committees under any form of PR. It is possible to imagine different corner case scenarios but in the real world?
    Yes that's right. One party would dominate but there would be real opposition and residents would have councillors of their party to represent them.

    In Richmond Borough there are 54 seats. LibDems got 48 seats, Greens got 5 (a pact) and the Tories got just one (and he's 92 years old). No Labour at all. That is plainly ridiculous.

    LibDems had 56% of the vote, Tories 27%, Lab 11%, Green 5%.
    With STV in 18 wards, each with 3 seats, the result would have been something like LibDem 30, Tory 15, Lab 6, Green 3. That would be much healthier and democratic, even though the LIbDems would still dominate.
    Totally agree, I also live in Richmond borough
    I hate multi seat wards. Recipe for confusion, resentment, and division between people who should be trying to operate.
    It really doesn't work like that in my experience (and my experience is having been a councillor in a split Con/Lab and Con/Grn ward). Co-operation on ward matters is the norm.
    I have heard different from many councillors who have had the experience. And it wasn't really about political split, it was about some pulling their weight more than others that really rankled with them.

    I don't doubt co-operation is the norm, I've often seen cross party support for things because at a local level it really doesn't make much difference as policy differences are usually national in nature, they can unify to oppose a local development or demand better services in an area of course. But I've never seen the benefit of splitting the workload either, or opening the gates for when there isn't such cooperation.
  • Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    Braverman is a fxcking disgrace . She wants trouble at the weekend and if Sunak wasn’t so spineless he’d sack her .

    She does know that only the top two leadership candidates get put forward by MPs to the membership doesn't she?
    Yes but are the Tory MPs any more sane than the membership?
    This is where it gets interesting.

    The leadership election will be after GE 2024 and so it will depend on who has been returned. If there's only a 100 left then the dynamics are probably very different to the current 350.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    Braverman is a fxcking disgrace . She wants trouble at the weekend and if Sunak wasn’t so spineless he’d sack her .

    She does know that only the top two leadership candidates get put forward by MPs to the membership doesn't she?
    Yes but are the Tory MPs any more sane than the membership?
    If it wasn't for Tory MPs Boris would still be PM and more Tory MPs voted for Sunak than Truss unlike the membership, certainly Tory MPs are generally less ideological than the members and they do of course pick the final 2 candidate to the members
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited November 2023
    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    Braverman is a fxcking disgrace . She wants trouble at the weekend and if Sunak wasn’t so spineless he’d sack her .

    She does know that only the top two leadership candidates get put forward by MPs to the membership doesn't she?
    Yes but are the Tory MPs any more sane than the membership?
    How are we defining that?

    In 2019 some of Boris's outriders were pre-moaning about potentially being kept off the final two by MPs when he was clearly the most popular choice amongst Members. As it transpired they had nothing to worry about because he easily made it.

    They will have had multiple reasons for that, but part of it will have been that some of them believed he had the best chance of getting them out of the current Brexit mess and win them an election.

    They were right about that. Many Boris opponents would call him not a sane choice, but as someone who disliked him then and now it was absolutely a sane choice for the MPs at the time. It worked after all.

    So it is hard to say for certain Braverman making the final cut would not be sane until she actually got the gig - it's not like Truss's implosion was predicted, even amongst those who thought she was a bad candidate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    Thoughts and prayers with HYUFD


    Tanks heading out of Epping towards the Channel Tunnel as we speak.
    Tanks not even heading out of Madrid if Sanchez is in charge, it seems he will let Catalan nationalists walk all over him to stay in power
  • Seattle Times ($) - Several WA elections offices evacuated over white powder, fentanyl

    Election offices in King, Pierce and Spokane counties were evacuated Wednesday after unknown white powder was found in envelopes, including traces of fentanyl in mail received by two of the offices.

    Officials confirmed the presence of fentanyl in the envelopes sent to Spokane and King Counties Wednesday afternoon. No employees were harmed by the substance in either county.

    In King County, Detective Robert Onishi with the Renton Police Department confirmed a “presumptive” field test on the powder determined it contained fentanyl. The substance will require further lab testing to confirm and determine how much. Renton police have turned the investigation over to the FBI and, according to Onishi, cannot confirm whether the envelopes were connected.

    Spokane Police Department spokesperson Julie Humphreys also said fentanyl was found in the envelope at the Spokane County elections office.

    The envelopes are halting ballot counting in three major local elections. All three counties have votes to tally for races in which ballots were due Tuesday night.

    In Tacoma, those votes are deciding the fate of a measure to adopt renter protections; in Spokane, a mayoral race is too close to call; and in King County, several county positions and Seattle City Council races are neck-and-neck.

    Tacoma police confirmed a hazmat response at the Pierce County Elections Office at about 8:45 a.m., after an elections worker found an envelope “that dispersed a white powdery substance.”

    Washington State Patrol and Tacoma fire crews responded and determined the substance was baking soda, according to William Muse, a police spokesperson.

    A message inside the envelope said “something to the effect of stopping the election,” Muse said. “There was no candidate that was identified. There was no religious affiliated group identified. There was no political issue identified. It was just that vague statement.”

    The employee who found the envelope was wearing gloves, and no injuries were reported. As of 11:05 a.m., the building was safe to occupy again, according to the Fire Department.

    Vote results will be posted for Pierce County around 4 p.m., according to the elections office.

    Humphreys confirmed the explosives disposal unit and the Spokane Fire Department hazmat team responded to and evacuated the Spokane County elections office after, again, a piece of mail with powder was opened around 10:30 a.m. Wednesday.

    The employee who opened the mail was unharmed, according to Patrick Bell, a spokesperson for Spokane County Elections.

    No votes will be counted in Spokane County Wednesday, Bell said, and election workers there have been sent home.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    HYUFD said:

    Thoughts and prayers with HYUFD


    Tanks heading out of Epping towards the Channel Tunnel as we speak.
    Tanks not even heading out of Madrid if Sanchez is in charge, it seems he will let Catalan nationalists walk all over him to stay in power
    Minority Governments can survive a surprisingly long time without offering all that much, is it clear if there is anything else the nationalists will be getting?

    I do hope he addresses this though, as it should be amusing. From BBC:

    Previously, Mr Sánchez had deemed an amnesty - which has been a long-standing demand of many pro-independence Catalans - unconstitutional, making this the biggest and most contentious policy pivot of his career.
  • Tory MPs in fresh WhatsApp row over Suella Braverman's 'homeless' comments
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/tory-mps-in-fresh-whatsapp-row-over-suella-bravermans-homeless-comments/

    Third Suella Braverman story in this thread in the last few minutes.

    Homeless tent villages is an American GOP issue aiui.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Seattle Times ($) - Several WA elections offices evacuated over white powder, fentanyl

    Election offices in King, Pierce and Spokane counties were evacuated Wednesday after unknown white powder was found in envelopes, including traces of fentanyl in mail received by two of the offices.

    Officials confirmed the presence of fentanyl in the envelopes sent to Spokane and King Counties Wednesday afternoon. No employees were harmed by the substance in either county.

    In King County, Detective Robert Onishi with the Renton Police Department confirmed a “presumptive” field test on the powder determined it contained fentanyl. The substance will require further lab testing to confirm and determine how much. Renton police have turned the investigation over to the FBI and, according to Onishi, cannot confirm whether the envelopes were connected.

    Spokane Police Department spokesperson Julie Humphreys also said fentanyl was found in the envelope at the Spokane County elections office.

    The envelopes are halting ballot counting in three major local elections. All three counties have votes to tally for races in which ballots were due Tuesday night.

    In Tacoma, those votes are deciding the fate of a measure to adopt renter protections; in Spokane, a mayoral race is too close to call; and in King County, several county positions and Seattle City Council races are neck-and-neck.

    Tacoma police confirmed a hazmat response at the Pierce County Elections Office at about 8:45 a.m., after an elections worker found an envelope “that dispersed a white powdery substance.”

    Washington State Patrol and Tacoma fire crews responded and determined the substance was baking soda, according to William Muse, a police spokesperson.

    A message inside the envelope said “something to the effect of stopping the election,” Muse said. “There was no candidate that was identified. There was no religious affiliated group identified. There was no political issue identified. It was just that vague statement.”

    The employee who found the envelope was wearing gloves, and no injuries were reported. As of 11:05 a.m., the building was safe to occupy again, according to the Fire Department.

    Vote results will be posted for Pierce County around 4 p.m., according to the elections office.

    Humphreys confirmed the explosives disposal unit and the Spokane Fire Department hazmat team responded to and evacuated the Spokane County elections office after, again, a piece of mail with powder was opened around 10:30 a.m. Wednesday.

    The employee who opened the mail was unharmed, according to Patrick Bell, a spokesperson for Spokane County Elections.

    No votes will be counted in Spokane County Wednesday, Bell said, and election workers there have been sent home.

    Expect a lot of this in 2024. It only takes a handful of nutjobs.
  • Tory MPs in fresh WhatsApp row over Suella Braverman's 'homeless' comments
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/tory-mps-in-fresh-whatsapp-row-over-suella-bravermans-homeless-comments/

    Third Suella Braverman story in this thread in the last few minutes.

    Homeless tent villages is an American GOP issue aiui.

    Tories can't wait to be in opposition and then properly have a civil war.

    GE now!!!!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    How may US states would vote against abortion if they had a vote on it like Ohio did yesterday?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783

    Tory MPs in fresh WhatsApp row over Suella Braverman's 'homeless' comments
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/tory-mps-in-fresh-whatsapp-row-over-suella-bravermans-homeless-comments/

    Third Suella Braverman story in this thread in the last few minutes.

    Homeless tent villages is an American GOP issue aiui.

    If only we, poor plebeian taxpayers and voters, could at least see which Whatsapp groups our ministers were reading - even if not the messages themselves.

    The 'lol covid is nothing' group in March 2020 and the 'burn the stoooopid tents' group in 2023 would at least give us a heads up.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:

    TimS said:

    slade said:

    A mixed bag of local by-elections tomorrow. There is one for Mayor of Hackney - should be a safe Lab hold but watch out for the Green vote. Lab also have a defence in Lewisham. We have a double defence in Powys for independents elected as Lib Dems. There is also a Ind defence in South Holland and Con defences in Lincolnshire and South Kesteven.

    The Lewisham defence is Deptford ward. 3 councillors elected in May last year, all Labour. But the greens are quite a strong second. Pretty much a one and a half horse race but wouldn’t rule out a green gain.

    Lewisham council is one of those examples of the madness of FPTP. 50 councillors out of 50 are from one party. That’s not representative or healthy.
    There's a very strong argument for introducing some form of PR for local elections.
    STV in three member wards would work.
    Would work in what way? If one party is taking all of the seats in FPTP elections then they are most likely a shoe-in to dominate the council and grab all the committees under any form of PR. It is possible to imagine different corner case scenarios but in the real world?
    Yes that's right. One party would dominate but there would be real opposition and residents would have councillors of their party to represent them.

    In Richmond Borough there are 54 seats. LibDems got 48 seats, Greens got 5 (a pact) and the Tories got just one (and he's 92 years old). No Labour at all. That is plainly ridiculous.

    LibDems had 56% of the vote, Tories 27%, Lab 11%, Green 5%.
    With STV in 18 wards, each with 3 seats, the result would have been something like LibDem 30, Tory 15, Lab 6, Green 3. That would be much healthier and democratic, even though the LIbDems would still dominate.
    63 seats in Redbridge = 58 Labour, 5 Tory. Labour got 58%, Tories 33%, LDs 5%, Green 2%.
    This year in Wakefield MDC:

    Lab 52.7% - 20 seats
    LD 5.1% - 1 seat
    Others 42.2% - 0 seats
    North Ayrshire Council (elected via STV)
    SNP votes 36.2% seats 36.3%
    Conservative votes 21.7% seats 30.3%
    Labour votes 25.4% seats 27.2%
    Independents votes 11.6% seats 6.0%
    9 other parties combined votes 4.5% seats 0.0%
    So, reasonably proportional, apart from Conservatives slightly over and Independents slightly under.
    If the nine wards had each voted in a councillor under FPTP, the result would have been SNP 6, Conservative 1, Labour 1, Independent 1, so not proportional.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited November 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    How may US states would vote against abortion if they had a vote on it like Ohio did yesterday?

    Probably Alabama, Arkansas, Indiana, Kentucky and Louisiana, Mississippi, North Dakota, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah and West Virginia and maybe Missouri, South Dakota and Texas

    https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
  • Death of local news goes on:


    The UK’s largest commercial news publisher Reach has announced massive further redundancies, with 450 jobs going.

    The restructure will see the publisher merge print and digital teams on its national and regional titles in a drive toward “future audience-led publishing”. Some of the newer regional “Live” websites are to be closed.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/news/reach-450-redundancies/



  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,073
    HYUFD said:

    Thoughts and prayers with HYUFD


    So Sanchez and his minority Socialist government are now puppets of Catalan nationalists in order to hold onto power.

    That will also likely lead to a further backlash to the PP and Vox from Spanish patriots.

    What could have happened here in the UK in 2015 had Ed Miliband led a minority Labour government reliant on SNP support has now literally happened in Spain
    That door swings both ways. 2017 May coalitioned with the DUP.
This discussion has been closed.