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Rasputitsa – politicalbetting.com

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Terrifying.

    I genuinely think he might win again.
    It's remarkable how totally underreported this is here.

    Only two stories seem acceptable in the UK: Trump is going down, and it's Biden again but he's a bit old.

    The depth of analysis is terrible.
    Which is strange, because we overreport a lot of american minutiae due to our epic cultural cringe with them, yet the detail can be just bizarre.

    They did once refer to 'gaffe-prone BIden' in an official news report, which although he does indeed make gaffes, was very un-BBC like.
    You should see the BBC coverage of Scottish politics since 2010.
    I suspect, without checking, that overreporting is not the issue with it?
    Part of it ...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    Wouldn't that only upset him even more, when the neighbours' cats use his fine tilth as a latrine?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    In the garden he might come across more freakish denatured mammallian slaves though, mine is used as a thoroughfare by the feline variety.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    PS You could always organise a PB whipround for a couple of windowboxes and some peat-free compost.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    "In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved innocent plants and kept them in "gardens" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in flowery folaige, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)"
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    edited November 2023
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    In the garden he might come across more freakish denatured mammallian slaves though, mine is used as a thoroughfare by the feline variety.
    He lives in Camden. He's well used to freakish mammalians, though they tend to have just 2 legs there.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,073

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction:

    In the future we will be horrified that humans killed living mammals and ate their meat: we will have lab grown meat that does the tasty job

    In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved intelligent mammals and kept them as "pets" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in fluffy toys, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)

    Timescale?
    You will first eat lab grown meat in the next 10 to 12 years. But it will probably only become the dominant form of protein in 40 or 50 years.

    And it may take a century before you are able to grow a steak that is indistinguishable from the "real thing".

    (And RFK will claim that it gives you cancer. For the record, it won't.)
    RFK is the cause of cancer.

    Prove me wrong.
    It existed before he did.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction:

    In the future we will be horrified that humans killed living mammals and ate their meat: we will have lab grown meat that does the tasty job

    In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved intelligent mammals and kept them as "pets" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in fluffy toys, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)

    Timescale?
    You will first eat lab grown meat in the next 10 to 12 years. But it will probably only become the dominant form of protein in 40 or 50 years.

    And it may take a century before you are able to grow a steak that is indistinguishable from the "real thing".

    (And RFK will claim that it gives you cancer. For the record, it won't.)
    RFK is the cause of cancer.

    Prove me wrong.
    It existed before he did.
    Comes in different kinds, though.
  • stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    The photo of the poppy sellers at Charing Cross Station surrounded by pro-Palestine demonstrators yesterday afternoon has resonated with me all day.

    As someone said, it may well turn out to be one of those iconic images which says so much about who we are and where we are. The immediate thought for me was incomprehension - two groups of people, united by war and peace, but whose worlds and perspectives are completely alien to each other.

    Perhaps the biggest misnomer is the notion we live in a United Kingdom. We may be many things and we certainly are a Kingdom but United - in so many ways, no.

    Perhaps not, but worth bearing in mind that such people who walk through central London on a protest march and do things notable /outrageous enough to get reported are a tiny fraction of the overall population.

    Nevertheless, I agree it is still disturbing.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    I’m house sitting for a friend in Falmouth. Massive house, sea views. All I gotta do is feed the cats

    Could be worse. But I just don’t get pets. Cats are amusing sometimes but that’s it. All they do is loll around sleeping meantime you have to let them in and out and feed them disgusting food and then they sleep some more

    What is it? Why pets? Why cats and dogs? Why can’t people cope without a stupid domesticated mammal that’s basically in a comfortable jail and had no purpose other than to mildly entertain?

    It’s like slavery. Pet owners are inadequate twats

    If you think cats are slaves, you've lived a very sheltered life indeed.

    Have you told your daughter who had some trouble with her dog a while back I seem to recall that she is an "inadequate twat" or is it just internet strangers you abuse because they like different things to you?

    I don't get why so many adults can't cope without having one or more alcoholic drinks every single day, in the vain hope that it will make them "relax" or make them more "amusing" or "creative". But very many do.

    Chaucun a son gout.
    My alcohol abuse mistreats my own liver (tho I feel fine, thanks)

    I don't keep cats that slaughter the local wildlife and grossly pollute the environment just because "I like having cats"

    Grow up. Seriously. Grow up. You don't need these denatured mammalian slaves, it is freakish
    The thing about arguing with a lawyer, Leon - especially one who has spent decades asking people questions they'd prefer not to answer - is that they notice when the other person very obviously avoids answering the question asked.

    As you have done.

    Being told by you to grow up is not quite at the @SeanT level of abuse. I was never privileged enough to receive that - a sort of PB rite of passage I believe - but it will have to do, especially on a Sunday evening.

    You don't have to be a lawyer. He did that the other day to @BartholomewRoberts and myself ad nauseam. No matter how many times asked he failed to answer the actual question and answered his own.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    I’m house sitting for a friend in Falmouth. Massive house, sea views. All I gotta do is feed the cats

    Could be worse. But I just don’t get pets. Cats are amusing sometimes but that’s it. All they do is loll around sleeping meantime you have to let them in and out and feed them disgusting food and then they sleep some more

    What is it? Why pets? Why cats and dogs? Why can’t people cope without a stupid domesticated mammal that’s basically in a comfortable jail and had no purpose other than to mildly entertain?

    It’s like slavery. Pet owners are inadequate twats

    If you think cats are slaves, you've lived a very sheltered life indeed.

    Have you told your daughter who had some trouble with her dog a while back I seem to recall that she is an "inadequate twat" or is it just internet strangers you abuse because they like different things to you?

    I don't get why so many adults can't cope without having one or more alcoholic drinks every single day, in the vain hope that it will make them "relax" or make them more "amusing" or "creative". But very many do.

    Chaucun a son gout.
    My alcohol abuse mistreats my own liver (tho I feel fine, thanks)

    I don't keep cats that slaughter the local wildlife and grossly pollute the environment just because "I like having cats"

    Grow up. Seriously. Grow up. You don't need these denatured mammalian slaves, it is freakish
    The thing about arguing with a lawyer, Leon - especially one who has spent decades asking people questions they'd prefer not to answer - is that they notice when the other person very obviously avoids answering the question asked.

    As you have done.

    Being told by you to grow up is not quite at the @SeanT level of abuse. I was never privileged enough to receive that - a sort of PB rite of passage I believe. - but it will have to do, especially on a Sunday evening.

    Some of the @SeanT exhibit a level of understanding of a puppy, I find - “I have found the most awesome thing in the Universe. A T-A-I-L. Yeay me!”
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,917

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction:

    In the future we will be horrified that humans killed living mammals and ate their meat: we will have lab grown meat that does the tasty job

    In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved intelligent mammals and kept them as "pets" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in fluffy toys, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)

    Timescale?
    You will first eat lab grown meat in the next 10 to 12 years. But it will probably only become the dominant form of protein in 40 or 50 years.

    And it may take a century before you are able to grow a steak that is indistinguishable from the "real thing".

    (And RFK will claim that it gives you cancer. For the record, it won't.)
    RFK is the cause of cancer.

    Prove me wrong.
    In current polls RFK may be Biden's best chance of re election as he takes more voters who would otherwise vote for Trump than Biden voters
  • Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    ICYMI, Mum won Redbridge in Bloom for her front garden this year.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone think Biden might get displaced by Kennedy as the main challenger to Trump?

    0%

    How many on left hand side of politics are yearning for a vaccine denying conspiracy theorist? And that’s just his presentable views.
    There is time for events to align with his views. A doctor friend recently reported to me that her and most of her colleagues now privately shy away from recommending the vaccine to all but the elderly, because they are anecdotally seeing odd incidences of cancer that have left them scratching their heads. To the extent that they are also busily reminding under 40s of the early symptoms of cancer even in social settings.

    Now perhaps there is nothing to this. But there is a non zero chance that rfk and his ilk will be able to claim the “I told you so” hill.
    What with blowing a hairdryer up your nose the other day and this, this site is becoming a conspiracy web site. I thought people who posted here had more sense.
    Half the people posting here vote the wrong way every election.
    There is voting for the wrong party and then there is sticking a hairdryer up your nose. I'm trying to work out which is worse.
    I sometimes do the hairdryer thing for colds.
    Can you recommend any particular brand for this?
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m house sitting for a friend in Falmouth. Massive house, sea views. All I gotta do is feed the cats

    Could be worse. But I just don’t get pets. Cats are amusing sometimes but that’s it. All they do is loll around sleeping meantime you have to let them in and out and feed them disgusting food and then they sleep some more

    What is it? Why pets? Why cats and dogs? Why can’t people cope without a stupid domesticated mammal that’s basically in a comfortable jail and had no purpose other than to mildly entertain?

    It’s like slavery. Pet owners are inadequate twats

    You don't get pets, you don't do long-term relationships - maybe just accept that you're a little bit different to most people?
    No, this is different, I morally object to pets, and despise the weaklings that enslave them - at a serious cost to the environment

    "Oh look, my cat did this funny thing"

    "Hey, I go for walks with a dog"

    GET A FUCKING LIFE
    I wasn't trying to be rude, offensive, or judgemental. You don't understand why most people like pets, fair enough, not an issue.

    My personal theory is that humans have a deep evolutionary affinity to other species and having a pet fits with that. But that's an evidence-free theory on my part.
    Pets are warm and soft and emotionally simpler than other humans, so you can get some of the companionship that a relationship with a human would give you, with a much more predictable level of hassle.
    Put like that I'm actually mildly surprised that Leon doesn't have a pet. Given his oft demonstrated acceptance of paying for physical contact with another human, you would think that exchanging food for stroking a cat would be the sort of bargain he could get behind.

    It's kinda fascinating that he manages to confound my expectations in this way.
    When you realise that I am on a higher spiritual plane…
    A new term for being pissed.

    We have so many, and yet, another one still seems worthwhile.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,917
    edited November 2023

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Terrifying.

    I genuinely think he might win again.
    It's remarkable how totally underreported this is here.

    Only two stories seem acceptable in the UK: Trump is going down, and it's Biden again but he's a bit old.

    The depth of analysis is terrible.
    Trump may well be convicted and jailed next year, however even the BBC note that does
    not necessarily mean he cannot be elected again
    "Four surprises that could upend the 2024 US election - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67304536
  • Off topic and away from Felineophobia.

    A few posters have mentioned here that Labour's lead isn't being impacted by what is going on in the Middle East and the Pro-Palestine demos.

    It is a fair point to make but it is worth a reminder that the same was said around two years ago when we started to have the new stories start about BJ's behaviour and Tory leads were staying stable. It actually took time for the narrative to start being reflected in the polling numbers.

    FWIS, I think SKS has been fundamentally right with his stance but there may be come a point when voters start to associate the Labour brand as a whole as being sympathetic to the Palestinians and that is likely to be a drag if the current type of protests continue with protestors occupying train stations, marching on Remembrance Day, shouting at kids coming out off McDonalds etc.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    In future we will look back at pet ownership the way we look at slavery now - almost

    "So, you took this natural wild mammal, and kept it in a house, basically against all its instincts, I guess it did some important job?"

    "No, it just was there to entertain me"

    "What??"

    "I mean, yeah, that was it. Sometimes it did funny jumps. Or it barked amusingly"

    "That's it???"

    "No no no, long before that I had its genitals cut off. After that it just destroyed wildlife"

    Ummm:

    Our first cat adopted us. It hung around by the back door. We gave it food from time to time. Eventually it moved in.

    Which, if you think about it, is nothing like the slave trade.
    Leon never had a cat, clearly.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    edited November 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    Wouldn't that only upset him even more, when the neighbours' cats use his fine tilth as a latrine?
    Oh for the halcyon days of cats using the garden beds as a latrine. It’s Guy Fawkes week so Florence the cat decided to piss all over our duvet, soaking all the way through to the mattress protector. Then later this evening she elected to place a large wet poo on my son’s duvet. So the washing machine has been busy today.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction:

    In the future we will be horrified that humans killed living mammals and ate their meat: we will have lab grown meat that does the tasty job

    In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved intelligent mammals and kept them as "pets" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in fluffy toys, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)

    Timescale?
    You will first eat lab grown meat in the next 10 to 12 years. But it will probably only become the dominant form of protein in 40 or 50 years.

    And it may take a century before you are able to grow a steak that is indistinguishable from the "real thing".

    (And RFK will claim that it gives you cancer. For the record, it won't.)
    RFK is the cause of cancer.

    Prove me wrong.
    In current polls RFK may be Biden's best chance of re election as he takes more voters who would otherwise vote for Trump than Biden voters
    There was some focus group stuff the other day, that showed that when people found out what he was selling, his support was massively reduced and shifted towards a Sun group of MAGA

    As you’d expect, a lot of people were hearing “Kennedy” and ass-uming.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone think Biden might get displaced by Kennedy as the main challenger to Trump?

    0%

    How many on left hand side of politics are yearning for a vaccine denying conspiracy theorist? And that’s just his presentable views.
    There is time for events to align with his views. A doctor friend recently reported to me that her and most of her colleagues now privately shy away from recommending the vaccine to all but the elderly, because they are anecdotally seeing odd incidences of cancer that have left them scratching their heads. To the extent that they are also busily reminding under 40s of the early symptoms of cancer even in social settings.

    Now perhaps there is nothing to this. But there is a non zero chance that rfk and his ilk will be able to claim the “I told you so” hill.
    Total rot.

    "...they are anecdotally seeing odd incidences of cancer that have left them scratching their heads

    That describes most instances of cancer surely? Most of the friends and acquaintances I have known who have suffered cancer have been 'odd instances' - i.e. they've just been unlucky.

    My own view is that it is too early to tell what will be the long-term side effects of the vaccines. Normally, I would not give a moment to such thoughts but it gets forgotten that mRNA had not been through the standard testing procedures for a vaccine but had been sped-tracked through because of Covid. Potentially more important though is that the companies involved were given waivers by the US Government for any future liabilities for side effects caused by the vaccines. When you have (1) a big bucket of money waiting to be made (2) a focus on getting something out as quickly as possibly and (3) no liability for anything that goes wrong, that usually flashes warning bells.

    For disclosure, I have had three vaccine shots.

    That's not true: mRNA has been used for a number of cancer treatments, albeit in much smaller sample sizes.

    If (and it's an enormous if) mRNA vaccines caused cancer (and it would be good if those who suggested that it might could possibly propose a mechanism), then we would see it in differential cancer rates between countries which where AstraZeneca first and those which were Pfizer/Moderna first.

    I’m not a molecular scientist so can’t propose anything. All I do is pass on what’s being discussed behind closed doors in the staff room of one of the country’s bigger hospitals.

    As I said, perhaps (probably?) there’s nothing in it. But the story was in the context that no one that votes for Biden would vote for RFK because of his anti vax views. And all I do is tell you (at least in the uk), there are strongly pro vaccination medical professionals who are asking serious questions about the appropriateness of the all adult covid vaccine programme.

  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    "In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved innocent plants and kept them in "gardens" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in flowery folaige, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)"
    My god I took a saw and lopers to several massive leylandii yesterday. I hate them and I murdered them cruelly.
  • Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    Off topic and away from Felineophobia.

    A few posters have mentioned here that Labour's lead isn't being impacted by what is going on in the Middle East and the Pro-Palestine demos.

    It is a fair point to make but it is worth a reminder that the same was said around two years ago when we started to have the new stories start about BJ's behaviour and Tory leads were staying stable. It actually took time for the narrative to start being reflected in the polling numbers.

    FWIS, I think SKS has been fundamentally right with his stance but there may be come a point when voters start to associate the Labour brand as a whole as being sympathetic to the Palestinians and that is likely to be a drag if the current type of protests continue with protestors occupying train stations, marching on Remembrance Day, shouting at kids coming out off McDonalds etc.

    Not convinced. The polling suggests most people are sympathetic to both sides in this fight and they also know how much work SKS has done to eject the antisemitism from his party. We’ve all lived with the fact there are crazies on the right of the Tories, even during the Cameron years, so I’m not sure the fringe will have that much effect.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    kjh said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    "In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved innocent plants and kept them in "gardens" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in flowery folaige, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)"
    My god I took a saw and lopers to several massive leylandii yesterday. I hate them and I murdered them cruelly.
    Yew thenasia?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,917
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction:

    In the future we will be horrified that humans killed living mammals and ate their meat: we will have lab grown meat that does the tasty job

    In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved intelligent mammals and kept them as "pets" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in fluffy toys, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)

    And in the future imagined in Demolition Man humans are horrified by the concept of "fluid transfer" as a means of procreation, which is done hygienically in a lab.

    Sex is a Virtual reality simulation.

    Seems to tick all of Leon's boxes...
    Already is for those who get pregnant via IVF
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    kjh said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    "In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved innocent plants and kept them in "gardens" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in flowery folaige, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)"
    My god I took a saw and lopers to several massive leylandii yesterday. I hate them and I murdered them cruelly.
    Yew thenasia?
    Yews are well known killers, of course.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    I also find myself in the strange position of cheering on Michael Crick who worked over GB News last evening and ended up getting thrown off the Neil Oliver show.

    It's a paradox a channel which often berates "the Left" for de-platforming speakers and castigates left-wing groups for not accepting the principle of Freedom of Speech basically does the same to someone who has the temerity to call them out for what they are.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    edited November 2023

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    The photo of the poppy sellers at Charing Cross Station surrounded by pro-Palestine demonstrators yesterday afternoon has resonated with me all day.

    As someone said, it may well turn out to be one of those iconic images which says so much about who we are and where we are. The immediate thought for me was incomprehension - two groups of people, united by war and peace, but whose worlds and perspectives are completely alien to each other.

    Perhaps the biggest misnomer is the notion we live in a United Kingdom. We may be many things and we certainly are a Kingdom but United - in so many ways, no.

    Perhaps not, but worth bearing in mind that such people who walk through central London on a protest march and do things notable /outrageous enough to get reported are a tiny fraction of the overall population.

    Nevertheless, I agree it is still disturbing.
    And part of the point of this country is that we aren’t United in lock step. Which is very untidy and means we don’t get to do this


  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,917
    Ukraine is heading for stalemate, probably with some shared sovereignty over Crimea ultimately
  • Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
    That isn't data. That's propaganda put out by the Hamas run authorities in Gaza.

    The same people who cooked a baby to death in an oven, slit open the bellies of pregnant women, decapitated toddlers and infants, raped dozens of women, before murdering them, and are still holding over 200 Israeli hostage in Gaza.

    We don't need you playing their game for them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    I’m house sitting for a friend in Falmouth. Massive house, sea views. All I gotta do is feed the cats

    Could be worse. But I just don’t get pets. Cats are amusing sometimes but that’s it. All they do is loll around sleeping meantime you have to let them in and out and feed them disgusting food and then they sleep some more

    What is it? Why pets? Why cats and dogs? Why can’t people cope without a stupid domesticated mammal that’s basically in a comfortable jail and had no purpose other than to mildly entertain?

    It’s like slavery. Pet owners are inadequate twats

    If you think cats are slaves, you've lived a very sheltered life indeed.

    Have you told your daughter who had some trouble with her dog a while back I seem to recall that she is an "inadequate twat" or is it just internet strangers you abuse because they like different things to you?

    I don't get why so many adults can't cope without having one or more alcoholic drinks every single day, in the vain hope that it will make them "relax" or make them more "amusing" or "creative". But very many do.

    Chaucun a son gout.
    My alcohol abuse mistreats my own liver (tho I feel fine, thanks)

    I don't keep cats that slaughter the local wildlife and grossly pollute the environment just because "I like having cats"

    Grow up. Seriously. Grow up. You don't need these denatured mammalian slaves, it is freakish
    The thing about arguing with a lawyer, Leon - especially one who has spent decades asking people questions they'd prefer not to answer - is that they notice when the other person very obviously avoids answering the question asked.

    As you have done.

    Being told by you to grow up is not quite at the @SeanT level of abuse. I was never privileged enough to receive that - a sort of PB rite of passage I believe. - but it will have to do, especially on a Sunday evening.

    Some of the @SeanT exhibit a level of understanding of a puppy, I find - “I have found the most awesome thing in the Universe. A T-A-I-L. Yeay me!”
    That made me laugh. So true. We have a very excitable dog and I have just realised which poster he reminds me off.
  • Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
    That isn't data. That's propaganda put out by the Hamas run authorities in Gaza.

    We don't need you playing their game for them.
    If the Hampshire Conservative Club has more accurate data, I'm all ears!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Leon said:

    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

    Coincidentally, so do I. When's AI going to be stacking the dishwasher for us?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    Sanders is more Michael Foot than Jeremy Corbyn it seems.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    From what I can gather it shouldn't be a surprise, but people often see what they want to see, and assume everyone they like must believe all the same things, and everyone they dislike cannot believe something they might like.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,917
    edited November 2023

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction:

    In the future we will be horrified that humans killed living mammals and ate their meat: we will have lab grown meat that does the tasty job

    In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved intelligent mammals and kept them as "pets" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in fluffy toys, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)

    Timescale?
    You will first eat lab grown meat in the next 10 to 12 years. But it will probably only become the dominant form of protein in 40 or 50 years.

    And it may take a century before you are able to grow a steak that is indistinguishable from the "real thing".

    (And RFK will claim that it gives you cancer. For the record, it won't.)
    RFK is the cause of cancer.

    Prove me wrong.
    In current polls RFK may be Biden's best chance of re election as he takes more voters who would otherwise vote for Trump than Biden voters
    There was some focus group stuff the other day, that showed that when people found out what he was selling, his support was massively reduced and shifted towards a Sun group of MAGA

    As you’d expect, a lot of people were hearing “Kennedy” and ass-uming.
    If Trump is jailed and the GOP establishment end up fixing the nomination for another candidate at the convention, you could well see Trump voters shift in large numbers to Kennedy and Biden could be re elected with as little as 40% of the vote.

    The Republican establishment don't want Trump to be their candidate for President anymore than the Tory establishment wanted Boris to be PM. The problem is most of their party's core voters still love Trump and Boris
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035
    edited November 2023
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction:

    In the future we will be horrified that humans killed living mammals and ate their meat: we will have lab grown meat that does the tasty job

    In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved intelligent mammals and kept them as "pets" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in fluffy toys, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)

    Timescale?
    You will first eat lab grown meat in the next 10 to 12 years. But it will probably only become the dominant form of protein in 40 or 50 years.

    And it may take a century before you are able to grow a steak that is indistinguishable from the "real thing".

    (And RFK will claim that it gives you cancer. For the record, it won't.)
    RFK is the cause of cancer.

    Prove me wrong.
    In current polls RFK may be Biden's best chance of re election as he takes more voters who would otherwise vote for Trump than Biden voters
    If Biden clearly can't beat Trump (and he's been a pretty pisspoor President to date) the only reason for him running will have gone. Hopefully the party elders will have a word, he'll announce his health has taken a turn for the worse and he'll bow out with everybody's thanks and gratitude, leaving the field clear for the next generation.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    Leon said:

    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

    Wouldn’t be a lot of cats about if people didn’t have them as pets. Better to be a pampered pet than never born at all.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
    That isn't data. That's propaganda put out by the Hamas run authorities in Gaza.

    The same people who cooked a baby to death in an oven, slit open the bellies of pregnant women, decapitated toddlers and infants, raped dozens of women, before murdering them, and are still holding over 200 Israeli hostage in Gaza.

    We don't need you playing their game for them.
    Considering the level of destruction over the last month, while the figures are probably not accurate, they are very likely in the right ballpark.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    Sanders is more Michael Foot than Jeremy Corbyn it seems.
    Sanders has always been far, far more grounded than Corbyn.

    His idea for getting to universal healthcare in the US, while messy, is probably the only one that could actually work. Expand Medicaid and Medicare gradually to cover more and more.
  • stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    The photo of the poppy sellers at Charing Cross Station surrounded by pro-Palestine demonstrators yesterday afternoon has resonated with me all day.

    As someone said, it may well turn out to be one of those iconic images which says so much about who we are and where we are. The immediate thought for me was incomprehension - two groups of people, united by war and peace, but whose worlds and perspectives are completely alien to each other.

    Perhaps the biggest misnomer is the notion we live in a United Kingdom. We may be many things and we certainly are a Kingdom but United - in so many ways, no.

    Perhaps not, but worth bearing in mind that such people who walk through central London on a protest march and do things notable /outrageous enough to get reported are a tiny fraction of the overall population.

    Nevertheless, I agree it is still disturbing.
    And then we have this:

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1721160932766753200

    Oh and this:

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1721225948199035342

    Every action has a reaction. If anyone thinks that what is going on is not going to cause an upswing support for the far-right, I have a bridge to sell them

    PS And don't forget Obama who is doing his best to turn the Jewish voters in the US to the GOP:

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1720906811488751969

  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,581
    ..

    Off topic and away from Felineophobia.

    A few posters have mentioned here that Labour's lead isn't being impacted by what is going on in the Middle East and the Pro-Palestine demos.

    It is a fair point to make but it is worth a reminder that the same was said around two years ago when we started to have the new stories start about BJ's behaviour and Tory leads were staying stable. It actually took time for the narrative to start being reflected in the polling numbers.

    FWIS, I think SKS has been fundamentally right with his stance but there may be come a point when voters start to associate the Labour brand as a whole as being sympathetic to the Palestinians and that is likely to be a drag if the current type of protests continue with protestors occupying train stations, marching on Remembrance Day, shouting at kids coming out off McDonalds etc.

    The opposite, I think. Most people are sympathetic to the Palestinians.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

    Wouldn’t be a lot of cats about if people didn’t have them as pets. Better to be a pampered pet than never born at all.
    Not a very convincing argument. You could say the same about battery chickens.
  • TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    Wow.

    I 100% agree with Bernie Sanders.

    Not something I say often.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    edited November 2023

    Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
    That isn't data. That's propaganda put out by the Hamas run authorities in Gaza.

    We don't need you playing their game for them.
    If the Hampshire Conservative Club has more accurate data, I'm all ears!
    We went through this yesterday. If the source is completely untrustworthy it might as well be ignored. The fact that no-one else can provide a more accurate response is no reason to go with it. But people want to know. We'll have to accept not knowing.

    The one thing that surprises me is that I haven't seen anyone from the government or opposition question these numbers.
  • Barnesian said:

    ..

    Off topic and away from Felineophobia.

    A few posters have mentioned here that Labour's lead isn't being impacted by what is going on in the Middle East and the Pro-Palestine demos.

    It is a fair point to make but it is worth a reminder that the same was said around two years ago when we started to have the new stories start about BJ's behaviour and Tory leads were staying stable. It actually took time for the narrative to start being reflected in the polling numbers.

    FWIS, I think SKS has been fundamentally right with his stance but there may be come a point when voters start to associate the Labour brand as a whole as being sympathetic to the Palestinians and that is likely to be a drag if the current type of protests continue with protestors occupying train stations, marching on Remembrance Day, shouting at kids coming out off McDonalds etc.

    The opposite, I think. Most people are sympathetic to the Palestinians.
    Like to give some evidence for that? Most people seem to be neutral.
  • TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    Didn't Sanders crash and burn in the 2020 primary?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,417
    ...
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m house sitting for a friend in Falmouth. Massive house, sea views. All I gotta do is feed the cats

    Could be worse. But I just don’t get pets. Cats are amusing sometimes but that’s it. All they do is loll around sleeping meantime you have to let them in and out and feed them disgusting food and then they sleep some more

    What is it? Why pets? Why cats and dogs? Why can’t people cope without a stupid domesticated mammal that’s basically in a comfortable jail and had no purpose other than to mildly entertain?

    It’s like slavery. Pet owners are inadequate twats

    My dog keeps me fit. Stops me being lazy....
    Like I said. Selfish and inadequate

    Next
    That's bullshit. Giving a dog a home is a kindness. We rescued a terribly mistreated dog, badly bitten. She is very happy and she is part of the family.
    There are selfish nasty and inadequate people who own dogs but I am not one of them.
    Tell you what, how about we have NO dogs as domestic pets? How about that? Then you wouldn't have to rescue any?

    Let dogs be dogs, in packs, as nature intended, in the wild. Not denatured, castrated freaks kept in a purposeless brick box all day because they sometimes "lift the spirits" of a stupid provincial GP in Leicester
    I don't like cats much and I think there are far too many dogs around, many of which are badly handled or supervised by their owners, but I wouldn't ban them.

    Instead I think I'd licence it with stricter penalties.
    I would simply make insurance compulsory. The market would then make ownership of Bully XL etc financially prohibitive.
    Do you not own an insurance company?

    :lol:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Nigelb said:

    kjh said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon needs to take up gardening. It would keep him occupied and teach him more about nature than whatever was in the gobshite article (probably written by someone in the travel industry) which has pushed him onto his latest rant.

    "In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved innocent plants and kept them in "gardens" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in flowery folaige, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)"
    My god I took a saw and lopers to several massive leylandii yesterday. I hate them and I murdered them cruelly.
    Yew thenasia?
    Yews are well known killers, of course.
    And life savers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxus_baccata#Medical
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

    Wouldn’t be a lot of cats about if people didn’t have them as pets. Better to be a pampered pet than never born at all.
    Not a very convincing argument. You could say the same about battery chickens.
    I appreciate it's a judgement call but with a battery chicken I think most would say it was better for it never to have been born at all.
  • Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
    That isn't data. That's propaganda put out by the Hamas run authorities in Gaza.

    We don't need you playing their game for them.
    If the Hampshire Conservative Club has more accurate data, I'm all ears!
    We went through this yesterday. If the source is completely untrustworthy it might as well be ignored. The fact that no-one else can provide a more accurate response is no reason to go with it. But people want to know. We'll have to accept not knowing.

    The one thing that surprises me is that I haven't seen anyone from the government or opposition question these numbers.
    Er, because of Israeli overkill?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    edited November 2023
    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone think Biden might get displaced by Kennedy as the main challenger to Trump?

    0%

    How many on left hand side of politics are yearning for a vaccine denying conspiracy theorist? And that’s just his presentable views.
    There is time for events to align with his views. A doctor friend recently reported to me that her and most of her colleagues now privately shy away from recommending the vaccine to all but the elderly, because they are anecdotally seeing odd incidences of cancer that have left them scratching their heads. To the extent that they are also busily reminding under 40s of the early symptoms of cancer even in social settings.

    Now perhaps there is nothing to this. But there is a non zero chance that rfk and his ilk will be able to claim the “I told you so” hill.
    Total rot.

    "...they are anecdotally seeing odd incidences of cancer that have left them scratching their heads

    That describes most instances of cancer surely? Most of the friends and acquaintances I have known who have suffered cancer have been 'odd instances' - i.e. they've just been unlucky.

    My own view is that it is too early to tell what will be the long-term side effects of the vaccines. Normally, I would not give a moment to such thoughts but it gets forgotten that mRNA had not been through the standard testing procedures for a vaccine but had been sped-tracked through because of Covid. Potentially more important though is that the companies involved were given waivers by the US Government for any future liabilities for side effects caused by the vaccines. When you have (1) a big bucket of money waiting to be made (2) a focus on getting something out as quickly as possibly and (3) no liability for anything that goes wrong, that usually flashes warning bells.

    For disclosure, I have had three vaccine shots.

    That's not true: mRNA has been used for a number of cancer treatments, albeit in much smaller sample sizes.

    If (and it's an enormous if) mRNA vaccines caused cancer (and it would be good if those who suggested that it might could possibly propose a mechanism), then we would see it in differential cancer rates between countries which where AstraZeneca first and those which were Pfizer/Moderna first.

    I’m not a molecular scientist so can’t propose anything. All I do is pass on what’s being discussed behind closed doors in the staff room of one of the country’s bigger hospitals.

    As I said, perhaps (probably?) there’s nothing in it. But the story was in the context that no one that votes for Biden would vote for RFK because of his anti vax views. And all I do is tell you (at least in the uk), there are strongly pro vaccination medical professionals who are asking serious questions about the appropriateness of the all adult covid vaccine programme.

    Considering practically every one is vaccinated how do they get any comparison to a non vaccinated group and consequently a cause and effect. There could be numerous other reasons, not least the obvious one @Foxy pointed out of delayed diagnosis. Doctors aren't generally stupid, so don't jump to such rash conclusions.. I am married to one and consequently know a few. This sounds like utter bollocks.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    Didn't Sanders crash and burn in the 2020 primary?
    Well he was only 79 at the time, probably a bit early for him to have his real turn at the top job. There'll always be 2028 to have a go.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

    Wouldn’t be a lot of cats about if people didn’t have them as pets. Better to be a pampered pet than never born at all.
    Not a very convincing argument. You could say the same about battery chickens.
    Somewhere out there on the planet zog, someone might say the same about you and me. Am not a pet owner but most pet cats I’ve seen have looked pretty happy to be alive.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,917

    TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    Wow.

    I 100% agree with Bernie Sanders.

    Not something I say often.
    Sanders is Jewish I believe, he agreed with Corbyn in opposing the Iraq War but agrees with Starmer in supporting Israel
  • stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    The photo of the poppy sellers at Charing Cross Station surrounded by pro-Palestine demonstrators yesterday afternoon has resonated with me all day.

    As someone said, it may well turn out to be one of those iconic images which says so much about who we are and where we are. The immediate thought for me was incomprehension - two groups of people, united by war and peace, but whose worlds and perspectives are completely alien to each other.

    Perhaps the biggest misnomer is the notion we live in a United Kingdom. We may be many things and we certainly are a Kingdom but United - in so many ways, no.

    Perhaps not, but worth bearing in mind that such people who walk through central London on a protest march and do things notable /outrageous enough to get reported are a tiny fraction of the overall population.

    Nevertheless, I agree it is still disturbing.
    And part of the point of this country is that we aren’t United in lock step. Which is very untidy and means we don’t get to do this


    The Nazis never achieved an absolute majority even after they gained power and held the last "free" election. All you need is a majority cowed by a violent ruthless minority - the Bolsheviks showed that in 1917.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728
    TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    I think Sanders has always been a more interesting figure. During the Corbyn years one got tired of explaining that Sanders showed it was possible to be very left-wing without holding views on foreign policy that ranged from the appalling and dangerous to the ridiculous, which fed greater prejudices and stupidity at home.

    Ultimately, if a section of his supporters turn on him, as with the Corbynista Hiroo Onadas, it will show that they're more interested in being cranks than the 'transformative' politics they claimed to value.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
    That isn't data. That's propaganda put out by the Hamas run authorities in Gaza.

    We don't need you playing their game for them.
    If the Hampshire Conservative Club has more accurate data, I'm all ears!
    We went through this yesterday. If the source is completely untrustworthy it might as well be ignored. The fact that no-one else can provide a more accurate response is no reason to go with it. But people want to know. We'll have to accept not knowing.

    The one thing that surprises me is that I haven't seen anyone from the government or opposition question these numbers.
    Er, because of Israeli overkill?
    You'll have to explain that one to me,
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    Didn't Sanders crash and burn in the 2020 primary?
    Yes he did, but he’s evolved into a pretty solid and respected elder statesman.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

    Wouldn’t be a lot of cats about if people didn’t have them as pets. Better to be a pampered pet than never born at all.
    Not a very convincing argument. You could say the same about battery chickens.
    I appreciate it's a judgement call but with a battery chicken I think most would say it was better for it never to have been born at all.
    Not those whe enjoy eating them.
  • HYUFD said:

    Ukraine is heading for stalemate, probably with some shared sovereignty over Crimea ultimately

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-not-a-stalemate-volodymyr-zelenskyy-says-13001159

    Ukraine war not at 'stalemate', Volodymyr Zelenskyy says
    Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy has rejected claims the war is at an impasse and aligned the fight against Russia with Israel's battle against Hamas
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Barnesian said:

    ..

    Off topic and away from Felineophobia.

    A few posters have mentioned here that Labour's lead isn't being impacted by what is going on in the Middle East and the Pro-Palestine demos.

    It is a fair point to make but it is worth a reminder that the same was said around two years ago when we started to have the new stories start about BJ's behaviour and Tory leads were staying stable. It actually took time for the narrative to start being reflected in the polling numbers.

    FWIS, I think SKS has been fundamentally right with his stance but there may be come a point when voters start to associate the Labour brand as a whole as being sympathetic to the Palestinians and that is likely to be a drag if the current type of protests continue with protestors occupying train stations, marching on Remembrance Day, shouting at kids coming out off McDonalds etc.

    The opposite, I think. Most people are sympathetic to the Palestinians.
    Like to give some evidence for that? Most people seem to be neutral.
    Anecdotally I've always assumed much natural sympathy lies with the Palestinians. They are the ones lacking most of the power after all. It's not surprising to me that would still be the case.

    What has surprised me is many people going waaaay beyond that to open support of Hamas (or if not that far, of Hamas's actions, which is no real distinction).

    Sympathy for the plight of the civilian Palestinian doesn't require that, hence my surpise.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,714
    Ukraine's commander in chief on modern positional warfare and how to win in it
    https://infographics.economist.com/2023/ExternalContent/ZALUZHNYI_FULL_VERSION.pdf
    This was the piece that was misinterpreted here (by me inter alia) as admission there was a stalemate in the war. In fact it's not that so much as a recognition that the character of the war has changed, and crucially about ideas how to deal with that fact.
    See also https://phillipspobrien.substack.com/p/weekend-update-53-zaluzhny-and-the
  • Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
    That isn't data. That's propaganda put out by the Hamas run authorities in Gaza.

    We don't need you playing their game for them.
    If the Hampshire Conservative Club has more accurate data, I'm all ears!
    We went through this yesterday. If the source is completely untrustworthy it might as well be ignored. The fact that no-one else can provide a more accurate response is no reason to go with it. But people want to know. We'll have to accept not knowing.

    The one thing that surprises me is that I haven't seen anyone from the government or opposition question these numbers.
    Er, because of Israeli overkill?
    You'll have to explain that one to me,
    Constant bombing of built-up areas for the last 30 days?
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

    Wouldn’t be a lot of cats about if people didn’t have them as pets. Better to be a pampered pet than never born at all.
    Not a very convincing argument. You could say the same about battery chickens.
    I appreciate it's a judgement call but with a battery chicken I think most would say it was better for it never to have been born at all.
    Not those whe enjoy eating them.
    Meat is murder!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,917
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction:

    In the future we will be horrified that humans killed living mammals and ate their meat: we will have lab grown meat that does the tasty job

    In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved intelligent mammals and kept them as "pets" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in fluffy toys, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)

    Timescale?
    You will first eat lab grown meat in the next 10 to 12 years. But it will probably only become the dominant form of protein in 40 or 50 years.

    And it may take a century before you are able to grow a steak that is indistinguishable from the "real thing".

    (And RFK will claim that it gives you cancer. For the record, it won't.)
    RFK is the cause of cancer.

    Prove me wrong.
    In current polls RFK may be Biden's best chance of re election as he takes more voters who would otherwise vote for Trump than Biden voters
    If Biden clearly can't beat Trump (and he's been a pretty pisspoor President to date) the only reason for him running will have gone. Hopefully the party elders will have a word, he'll announce his health has taken a turn for the worse and he'll bow out with everybody's thanks and gratitude, leaving the field clear for the next generation.
    The problem for the Democrats is none of their leading politicians has a clear lead over Trump in polls. Biden can at least say he beat Trump in 2020
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    Wow.

    I 100% agree with Bernie Sanders.

    Not something I say often.
    Sanders is Jewish I believe, he agreed with Corbyn in opposing the Iraq War but agrees with Starmer in supporting Israel
    "The disaster in Gaza cannot continue. The world must act to save innocent lives. But just as a humanitarian response is critical, it is equally important to lay out a path to a two-state solution and a democratic Palestine. Israel cannot bomb its way to a long-term solution."

    https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1720142611174895924?t=vLaxkJL5ofO_Z2LUhvnAGg&s=19
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    The photo of the poppy sellers at Charing Cross Station surrounded by pro-Palestine demonstrators yesterday afternoon has resonated with me all day.

    As someone said, it may well turn out to be one of those iconic images which says so much about who we are and where we are. The immediate thought for me was incomprehension - two groups of people, united by war and peace, but whose worlds and perspectives are completely alien to each other.

    Perhaps the biggest misnomer is the notion we live in a United Kingdom. We may be many things and we certainly are a Kingdom but United - in so many ways, no.

    Perhaps not, but worth bearing in mind that such people who walk through central London on a protest march and do things notable /outrageous enough to get reported are a tiny fraction of the overall population.

    Nevertheless, I agree it is still disturbing.
    And part of the point of this country is that we aren’t United in lock step. Which is very untidy and means we don’t get to do this


    The Nazis never achieved an absolute majority even after they gained power and held the last "free" election. All you need is a majority cowed by a violent ruthless minority - the Bolsheviks showed that in 1917.
    Indeed, a committed and ruthless minority can definitely overcome disparate yet majority opposition forces. It's probably why the fanatically certain and confident can easily sway the more cautious masses of us.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

    Wouldn’t be a lot of cats about if people didn’t have them as pets. Better to be a pampered pet than never born at all.
    Not a very convincing argument. You could say the same about battery chickens.
    My cat is a rescue cat. I love Cats (and Dogs, but Cats are easier to look after so I'm more inclined to look after them), but I'd never buy any animal from a breeder, when there are so many neglected pets.
  • HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction:

    In the future we will be horrified that humans killed living mammals and ate their meat: we will have lab grown meat that does the tasty job

    In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved intelligent mammals and kept them as "pets" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in fluffy toys, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)

    Timescale?
    You will first eat lab grown meat in the next 10 to 12 years. But it will probably only become the dominant form of protein in 40 or 50 years.

    And it may take a century before you are able to grow a steak that is indistinguishable from the "real thing".

    (And RFK will claim that it gives you cancer. For the record, it won't.)
    RFK is the cause of cancer.

    Prove me wrong.
    In current polls RFK may be Biden's best chance of re election as he takes more voters who would otherwise vote for Trump than Biden voters
    If Biden clearly can't beat Trump (and he's been a pretty pisspoor President to date) the only reason for him running will have gone. Hopefully the party elders will have a word, he'll announce his health has taken a turn for the worse and he'll bow out with everybody's thanks and gratitude, leaving the field clear for the next generation.
    The problem for the Democrats is none of their leading politicians has a clear lead over Trump in polls. Biden can at least say he beat Trump in 2020
    Even Hillary beat him in 2016! Um, going by popular vote, of course!!
  • Leon said:

    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

    Coincidentally, so do I. When's AI going to be stacking the dishwasher for us?
    Don't knock it. Our dishwasher is currently in pieces in the kitchen. I think the flow through heater is knackered, but so is my multimeter. Now I have to take my turn doing the washing up while waiting for Amazon to deliver a new multimeter:-(
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,917
    stodge said:

    A final thought for Sunday evening.

    If you think Boris Johnson or Liz Truss or even Rishi Sunak deserve the prize for "person who has successfully wrecked their own political career", I offer as an alternative nomination, Sadiq Khan.

    His decision to run for a third term as London Mayor will be seen as the greatest act of self-inflicted career harm since Gerald Ratner thought he'd be honest about his company's products.

    Even though I find Susan Hall to have the personality and charisma of a small paper bag, there's a very real chance (in my view) she will snatch the Mayoralty next year because Sadiq is universally loathed in Outer London despite the ULEZ being a bit of a damp squib.

    Sadiq could have eschewed a third term, found himself a nice safe seat in London and got himself on the Ministerial ladder in a Starmer Government with the possibility of a Cabinet post in a couple of reshuffles. A replacement Labour candidate would have had a real chance of reconnecting with London voters and would have inflicted as heavy a defeat on Susan Hall as (find your own analogy, something from the Punic Wars usually works).

    Khan's error was he made his decision far too early - in the early stages of the pandemic when Johnson was still being worshipped by most and the Conservatives were miles ahead in the polls. Khan obviously calculated there was no way Starmer was going to win against the Chief Optimist so he (Khan) could continue to be a significant Labour voice in the country.

    That turned out well, didn't it?

    If Susan Hall beats Khan in London and Starmer beats Sunak nationwide that will be confirmation to Conservatives they need to move right in opposition
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone think Biden might get displaced by Kennedy as the main challenger to Trump?

    0%

    How many on left hand side of politics are yearning for a vaccine denying conspiracy theorist? And that’s just his presentable views.
    There is time for events to align with his views. A doctor friend recently reported to me that her and most of her colleagues now privately shy away from recommending the vaccine to all but the elderly, because they are anecdotally seeing odd incidences of cancer that have left them scratching their heads. To the extent that they are also busily reminding under 40s of the early symptoms of cancer even in social settings.

    Now perhaps there is nothing to this. But there is a non zero chance that rfk and his ilk will be able to claim the “I told you so” hill.
    Total rot.

    "...they are anecdotally seeing odd incidences of cancer that have left them scratching their heads

    That describes most instances of cancer surely? Most of the friends and acquaintances I have known who have suffered cancer have been 'odd instances' - i.e. they've just been unlucky.

    My own view is that it is too early to tell what will be the long-term side effects of the vaccines. Normally, I would not give a moment to such thoughts but it gets forgotten that mRNA had not been through the standard testing procedures for a vaccine but had been sped-tracked through because of Covid. Potentially more important though is that the companies involved were given waivers by the US Government for any future liabilities for side effects caused by the vaccines. When you have (1) a big bucket of money waiting to be made (2) a focus on getting something out as quickly as possibly and (3) no liability for anything that goes wrong, that usually flashes warning bells.

    For disclosure, I have had three vaccine shots.

    That's not true: mRNA has been used for a number of cancer treatments, albeit in much smaller sample sizes.

    If (and it's an enormous if) mRNA vaccines caused cancer (and it would be good if those who suggested that it might could possibly propose a mechanism), then we would see it in differential cancer rates between countries which where AstraZeneca first and those which were Pfizer/Moderna first.

    I’m not a molecular scientist so can’t propose anything. All I do is pass on what’s being discussed behind closed doors in the staff room of one of the country’s bigger hospitals.

    As I said, perhaps (probably?) there’s nothing in it. But the story was in the context that no one that votes for Biden would vote for RFK because of his anti vax views. And all I do is tell you (at least in the uk), there are strongly pro vaccination medical professionals who are asking serious questions about the appropriateness of the all adult covid vaccine programme.

    Considering practically every one is vaccinated how do they get any comparison to a non vaccinated group and consequently a cause and effect. There could be numerous other reasons, not least the obvious one @Foxy pointed out of delayed diagnosis. Doctors aren't generally stupid, so don't jump to such rash conclusions.. I am married to one and consequently know a few. This sounds like utter bollocks.
    It would be a pretty odd thing for me to make up this conversation. And it would be a pretty odd thing for this dr to make it up to me. I don’t think they are jumping to any rash conclusions but have sufficient intellectual curiosity to be asking whether they are seeing anything strange in response to 2020-2022 (the pandemic itself and society’s reaction to it).

    Anyhow, there really is nothing more boring and miserable than thinking and talking about anything to do with covid. People were talking about the US election before I shoved my beak in so I do apologise.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035

    TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    Sanders is more Michael Foot than Jeremy Corbyn it seems.
    Sanders has always been far, far more grounded than Corbyn.

    His idea for getting to universal healthcare in the US, while messy, is probably the only one that could actually work. Expand Medicaid and Medicare gradually to cover more and more.
    I think it's actually much less messy than the current system. It's a pretty good plan.

    But of course it won't happen because it would upset just about every vested interest in the mighty healthcare industry, involve a huge expansion in the federal government and have big redistributional implications.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
    That isn't data. That's propaganda put out by the Hamas run authorities in Gaza.

    We don't need you playing their game for them.
    If the Hampshire Conservative Club has more accurate data, I'm all ears!
    We went through this yesterday. If the source is completely untrustworthy it might as well be ignored. The fact that no-one else can provide a more accurate response is no reason to go with it. But people want to know. We'll have to accept not knowing.

    The one thing that surprises me is that I haven't seen anyone from the government or opposition question these numbers.
    Er, because of Israeli overkill?
    You'll have to explain that one to me,
    Constant bombing of built-up areas for the last 30 days?
    Well so far as I understand they warn people to leave certain areas in advance of bombing. Whether Hamas may force them to stay is a different matter. But again this doesn't tell us how many people have died.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,417

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction:

    In the future we will be horrified that humans killed living mammals and ate their meat: we will have lab grown meat that does the tasty job

    In the future we will be horrified that humans enslaved intelligent mammals and kept them as "pets" solely for amusement: we will have AI companions (embodied in fluffy toys, for the friendless, selfish inadequates)

    Timescale?
    You will first eat lab grown meat in the next 10 to 12 years. But it will probably only become the dominant form of protein in 40 or 50 years.

    And it may take a century before you are able to grow a steak that is indistinguishable from the "real thing".

    (And RFK will claim that it gives you cancer. For the record, it won't.)
    RFK is the cause of cancer.

    Prove me wrong.
    It doesn't have to 'cause cancer' to be a very bad idea. It is claimed in this thread that fake meat will have the same 'nutrition' as real meat, but as far as I'm aware, the nutritional profile of meat and its contribution to human health isn't even understood by the makers of these products, let alone being skillfully replicated. Meat has a complex interwoven range of vitamins, minerals, proteins, fats, amino acids, enzymes etc., that are presented in perfect proportion and in their most digestible form. That's precisely because of its 'wasteful and inefficient' life on the earth. You can't throw in a few cheap chemical vitamins and minerals in at the end of the recipe and say you've covered it - that's the height of luddite scientific ignorance.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    ..

    Off topic and away from Felineophobia.

    A few posters have mentioned here that Labour's lead isn't being impacted by what is going on in the Middle East and the Pro-Palestine demos.

    It is a fair point to make but it is worth a reminder that the same was said around two years ago when we started to have the new stories start about BJ's behaviour and Tory leads were staying stable. It actually took time for the narrative to start being reflected in the polling numbers.

    FWIS, I think SKS has been fundamentally right with his stance but there may be come a point when voters start to associate the Labour brand as a whole as being sympathetic to the Palestinians and that is likely to be a drag if the current type of protests continue with protestors occupying train stations, marching on Remembrance Day, shouting at kids coming out off McDonalds etc.

    The opposite, I think. Most people are sympathetic to the Palestinians.
    Like to give some evidence for that? Most people seem to be neutral.
    Anecdotally I've always assumed much natural sympathy lies with the Palestinians. They are the ones lacking most of the power after all. It's not surprising to me that would still be the case.

    What has surprised me is many people going waaaay beyond that to open support of Hamas (or if not that far, of Hamas's actions, which is no real distinction).

    Sympathy for the plight of the civilian Palestinian doesn't require that, hence my surpise.
    Polling this weekend showed those claiming to be sympathetic to Palestinians with no sympathy for Israel at around 3% of those polled.

    We mustn’t let TV news and social media kid us that the crazies are the majority.
  • ...

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.

    Taxes should be low, flat and evenly applied.

    If tourists buy something, they should pay the same taxes as anyone else.

    When I go to the other side of the Atlantic I don't get a refund on any sales taxes levied there.

    The UK is a major hub for tourists annually, of course they should be paying taxes. Better than we do.
    That's much too black and white. Many countries DO issue tax refunds to tourists. Many do not. Overseas experience doesn't give us a clear guide here. And low and uniform taxes are fine internally, because it helps economic activity here, but externally those advantages don't really apply.


    I know nuanced discussions about economic analysis don't fit well on internet discussion forums. But the guiding principle here should be whether the country as a whole (not just the government) is better or worse off for having this system in place. Does the revenue to shopkeepers, retailers, etc. lost from it offset the hit to the government? I haven't looked at the analysis so I'm not sure, and such studies are pretty sketchy anyway, but if we can get more money off foreigners in this instance we should do so.
    That's too narrow a way of looking at it.

    The fairness / social justice factor needs to be considered as well.

    Even if it resulted in enough extra money for the purveyors of overpriced consumer tat to offset the loss in VAT that wouldn't make up for the aggravation felt by those people now having to pay a tax which rich foreigners did not have to.
    So we should decide tax policy on the basis of whether people can or can't get whipped up over it on social media? Christ alive.
    That's always been the case.

    It explains, for example, why we tax employment income higher than investment income or why council tax is based on the property values of 1991.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,581
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    A final thought for Sunday evening.

    If you think Boris Johnson or Liz Truss or even Rishi Sunak deserve the prize for "person who has successfully wrecked their own political career", I offer as an alternative nomination, Sadiq Khan.

    His decision to run for a third term as London Mayor will be seen as the greatest act of self-inflicted career harm since Gerald Ratner thought he'd be honest about his company's products.

    Even though I find Susan Hall to have the personality and charisma of a small paper bag, there's a very real chance (in my view) she will snatch the Mayoralty next year because Sadiq is universally loathed in Outer London despite the ULEZ being a bit of a damp squib.

    Sadiq could have eschewed a third term, found himself a nice safe seat in London and got himself on the Ministerial ladder in a Starmer Government with the possibility of a Cabinet post in a couple of reshuffles. A replacement Labour candidate would have had a real chance of reconnecting with London voters and would have inflicted as heavy a defeat on Susan Hall as (find your own analogy, something from the Punic Wars usually works).

    Khan's error was he made his decision far too early - in the early stages of the pandemic when Johnson was still being worshipped by most and the Conservatives were miles ahead in the polls. Khan obviously calculated there was no way Starmer was going to win against the Chief Optimist so he (Khan) could continue to be a significant Labour voice in the country.

    That turned out well, didn't it?

    If Susan Hall beats Khan in London and Starmer beats Sunak nationwide that will be confirmation to Conservatives they need to move right in opposition
    :smile: That would be funny
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    A final thought for Sunday evening.

    If you think Boris Johnson or Liz Truss or even Rishi Sunak deserve the prize for "person who has successfully wrecked their own political career", I offer as an alternative nomination, Sadiq Khan.

    His decision to run for a third term as London Mayor will be seen as the greatest act of self-inflicted career harm since Gerald Ratner thought he'd be honest about his company's products.

    Even though I find Susan Hall to have the personality and charisma of a small paper bag, there's a very real chance (in my view) she will snatch the Mayoralty next year because Sadiq is universally loathed in Outer London despite the ULEZ being a bit of a damp squib.

    Sadiq could have eschewed a third term, found himself a nice safe seat in London and got himself on the Ministerial ladder in a Starmer Government with the possibility of a Cabinet post in a couple of reshuffles. A replacement Labour candidate would have had a real chance of reconnecting with London voters and would have inflicted as heavy a defeat on Susan Hall as (find your own analogy, something from the Punic Wars usually works).

    Khan's error was he made his decision far too early - in the early stages of the pandemic when Johnson was still being worshipped by most and the Conservatives were miles ahead in the polls. Khan obviously calculated there was no way Starmer was going to win against the Chief Optimist so he (Khan) could continue to be a significant Labour voice in the country.

    That turned out well, didn't it?

    If Susan Hall beats Khan in London and Starmer beats Sunak nationwide that will be confirmation to Conservatives they need to move right in opposition
    That would be the wrong conclusion. Sometimes elections are won not because you have the best candidate and the best policies but because you have the least worst candidate and the less unpopular policies.

    Under FPTP, Hall could win with a smaller vote share than Bailey managed last time if Labour's vote fragments or stays at home. She would then waste her four years attacking the Labour Government at every turn and in 2028 she'll be the one on the wrong end of an election defeat which itself would be a confidence boost for Labour in advance of a 2029 election.
  • Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
    That isn't data. That's propaganda put out by the Hamas run authorities in Gaza.

    We don't need you playing their game for them.
    If the Hampshire Conservative Club has more accurate data, I'm all ears!
    We went through this yesterday. If the source is completely untrustworthy it might as well be ignored. The fact that no-one else can provide a more accurate response is no reason to go with it. But people want to know. We'll have to accept not knowing.

    The one thing that surprises me is that I haven't seen anyone from the government or opposition question these numbers.
    Er, because of Israeli overkill?
    You'll have to explain that one to me,
    Constant bombing of built-up areas for the last 30 days?
    Well so far as I understand they warn people to leave certain areas in advance of bombing. Whether Hamas may force them to stay is a different matter. But again this doesn't tell us how many people have died.
    Israel bombed the southern "safe" area multiple times AFTER giving warnings to Gazans in the north to move south.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    edited November 2023
    CatMan said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Right I have to stack the dishwasher, life gets even more exciting in Falmouth

    But consider this as I go, PB: I might be right. About pets. They are seriously immoral, on multiple levels, and you can probably do without them

    Amen, elohim, Amen

    Wouldn’t be a lot of cats about if people didn’t have them as pets. Better to be a pampered pet than never born at all.
    Not a very convincing argument. You could say the same about battery chickens.
    My cat is a rescue cat. I love Cats (and Dogs, but Cats are easier to look after so I'm more inclined to look after them), but I'd never buy any animal from a breeder, when there are so many neglected pets.
    My cat is a foundling, albeit a rather handsome one, but my dog is a pedigree Podengo Pequeno. I much prefer dogs where you can meet the parents and see their behaviour as disposition is often inherited.

    Here they are together, eying up a squirrel on the bird table.


  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    geoffw said:

    Ukraine's commander in chief on modern positional warfare and how to win in it
    https://infographics.economist.com/2023/ExternalContent/ZALUZHNYI_FULL_VERSION.pdf
    This was the piece that was misinterpreted here (by me inter alia) as admission there was a stalemate in the war. In fact it's not that so much as a recognition that the character of the war has changed, and crucially about ideas how to deal with that fact.
    See also https://phillipspobrien.substack.com/p/weekend-update-53-zaluzhny-and-the

    This evening’s positional warfare is Georgian chacha in a Ukrainian glass.


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    The photo of the poppy sellers at Charing Cross Station surrounded by pro-Palestine demonstrators yesterday afternoon has resonated with me all day.

    As someone said, it may well turn out to be one of those iconic images which says so much about who we are and where we are. The immediate thought for me was incomprehension - two groups of people, united by war and peace, but whose worlds and perspectives are completely alien to each other.

    Perhaps the biggest misnomer is the notion we live in a United Kingdom. We may be many things and we certainly are a Kingdom but United - in so many ways, no.

    Perhaps not, but worth bearing in mind that such people who walk through central London on a protest march and do things notable /outrageous enough to get reported are a tiny fraction of the overall population.

    Nevertheless, I agree it is still disturbing.
    And part of the point of this country is that we aren’t United in lock step. Which is very untidy and means we don’t get to do this


    The Nazis never achieved an absolute majority even after they gained power and held the last "free" election. All you need is a majority cowed by a violent ruthless minority - the Bolsheviks showed that in 1917.
    In the wake of the re-occupation of the Rhineland and after the Anschluss, support for the Nazi party and Hitler reached stratospheric levels. Similarly after the fall of France.

    This was what the opposition to Hitler found, incidentally, not just Nazi propaganda.

    Greater Germany was very popular with the Germans.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    With regards to the pro Palestine protests, I have to say I've been deeply unimpressed by what I have seen. A mixture of airheads, bigots and thugs. That could of course be down to me picking sources that conform to my own biases so I would be very pleased if someone could enlighten me to any elements of the pro palestinian support that have things of useful substance to say, with regards to solutions perhaps? I think it would cheer me up.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Fishing said:

    TimS said:

    This helps SKS substantially:

    https://x.com/israelwarroom/status/1721192375362396302?s=46

    Sanders has been interesting on foreign policy in the last 2 years. Not what his followers might have expected.

    Sanders is more Michael Foot than Jeremy Corbyn it seems.
    Sanders has always been far, far more grounded than Corbyn.

    His idea for getting to universal healthcare in the US, while messy, is probably the only one that could actually work. Expand Medicaid and Medicare gradually to cover more and more.
    I think it's actually much less messy than the current system. It's a pretty good plan.

    But of course it won't happen because it would upset just about every vested interest in the mighty healthcare industry, involve a huge expansion in the federal government and have big redistributional implications.
    Expanding it bit by bit is actually possible, rather than announcing that you are shutting down the entire health insurance industrial complex on the 21st of June or whatever.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    Eabhal said:

    Can we move back to something a little less contentious, like Israel/Palestine?

    Compliance!

    Latest data: 9,770 dead in Gaza, including 4,800 children.
    That isn't data. That's propaganda put out by the Hamas run authorities in Gaza.

    We don't need you playing their game for them.
    If the Hampshire Conservative Club has more accurate data, I'm all ears!
    We went through this yesterday. If the source is completely untrustworthy it might as well be ignored. The fact that no-one else can provide a more accurate response is no reason to go with it. But people want to know. We'll have to accept not knowing.

    The one thing that surprises me is that I haven't seen anyone from the government or opposition question these numbers.
    Er, because of Israeli overkill?
    You'll have to explain that one to me,
    Constant bombing of built-up areas for the last 30 days?
    Well so far as I understand they warn people to leave certain areas in advance of bombing. Whether Hamas may force them to stay is a different matter. But again this doesn't tell us how many people have died.
    Israel bombed the southern "safe" area multiple times AFTER giving warnings to Gazans in the north to move south.
    Yes I can believe it's not universal.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Let's talk about the police instead.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/top-cop-risks-sack-over-snooping-on-accusers-qpv2fdmxc

    The first para sums it up.

    "One of Scotland Yard’s most senior officers is facing the sack if found guilty of procuring information held on police systems to undermine a bullying probe against him."

    A Deputy Assistant Commissioner. The article contains this gem - even after the bullying allegations against him were substantiated, he was promoted to become the Met's Head of Standards. (Who even realised the Met was meant to have standards let alone someone in charge of upholding them?)

    By whom?

    Need you ask. Cressida Dick. She appointed him because he was, in her eyes, a "very capable man” doing excellent work at the Met. Of course he was.

    Apart from ticking diversity boxes what did Cressida Dick do to continually get promoted ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    ..

    Off topic and away from Felineophobia.

    A few posters have mentioned here that Labour's lead isn't being impacted by what is going on in the Middle East and the Pro-Palestine demos.

    It is a fair point to make but it is worth a reminder that the same was said around two years ago when we started to have the new stories start about BJ's behaviour and Tory leads were staying stable. It actually took time for the narrative to start being reflected in the polling numbers.

    FWIS, I think SKS has been fundamentally right with his stance but there may be come a point when voters start to associate the Labour brand as a whole as being sympathetic to the Palestinians and that is likely to be a drag if the current type of protests continue with protestors occupying train stations, marching on Remembrance Day, shouting at kids coming out off McDonalds etc.

    The opposite, I think. Most people are sympathetic to the Palestinians.
    Like to give some evidence for that? Most people seem to be neutral.
    Anecdotally I've always assumed much natural sympathy lies with the Palestinians. They are the ones lacking most of the power after all. It's not surprising to me that would still be the case.

    What has surprised me is many people going waaaay beyond that to open support of Hamas (or if not that far, of Hamas's actions, which is no real distinction).

    Sympathy for the plight of the civilian Palestinian doesn't require that, hence my surpise.
    Polling this weekend showed those claiming to be sympathetic to Palestinians with no sympathy for Israel at around 3% of those polled.

    We mustn’t let TV news and social media kid us that the crazies are the majority.
    If even 3% of people are tearing down posters of kidnapped Israelis, putting pictures of Hamas paragliders on their backpacks, and holding up signs showing a Star of David put into a trash can with a message about cleaning up the world, then that is 3% too many.

    But more problematic is that they are not quiet about such things, they are not sneaking about or being evasive about their opinion, they are open and proud of it. That says to me that whatever a poll says it is a lot more than 3% who think that way, or they'd not be confident enough to be so bold. White supremacists as a counter example usually (not always) seek to claim not to be white supremacists, they try to use more acceptable language to cover for what they think.

    Not so, here, little fear of being ostracised or condemned by anyone whose opinion they actually care about.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,581
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    ..

    Off topic and away from Felineophobia.

    A few posters have mentioned here that Labour's lead isn't being impacted by what is going on in the Middle East and the Pro-Palestine demos.

    It is a fair point to make but it is worth a reminder that the same was said around two years ago when we started to have the new stories start about BJ's behaviour and Tory leads were staying stable. It actually took time for the narrative to start being reflected in the polling numbers.

    FWIS, I think SKS has been fundamentally right with his stance but there may be come a point when voters start to associate the Labour brand as a whole as being sympathetic to the Palestinians and that is likely to be a drag if the current type of protests continue with protestors occupying train stations, marching on Remembrance Day, shouting at kids coming out off McDonalds etc.

    The opposite, I think. Most people are sympathetic to the Palestinians.
    Like to give some evidence for that? Most people seem to be neutral.
    Anecdotally I've always assumed much natural sympathy lies with the Palestinians. They are the ones lacking most of the power after all. It's not surprising to me that would still be the case.

    What has surprised me is many people going waaaay beyond that to open support of Hamas (or if not that far, of Hamas's actions, which is no real distinction).

    Sympathy for the plight of the civilian Palestinian doesn't require that, hence my surpise.
    Polling this weekend showed those claiming to be sympathetic to Palestinians with no sympathy for Israel at around 3% of those polled.

    We mustn’t let TV news and social media kid us that the crazies are the majority.
    In my age group, a plurality don't sympathise with either.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Cyclefree said:

    Let's talk about the police instead.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/top-cop-risks-sack-over-snooping-on-accusers-qpv2fdmxc

    The first para sums it up.

    "One of Scotland Yard’s most senior officers is facing the sack if found guilty of procuring information held on police systems to undermine a bullying probe against him."

    A Deputy Assistant Commissioner. The article contains this gem - even after the bullying allegations against him were substantiated, he was promoted to become the Met's Head of Standards. (Who even realised the Met was meant to have standards let alone someone in charge of upholding them?)

    By whom?

    Need you ask. Cressida Dick. She appointed him because he was, in her eyes, a "very capable man” doing excellent work at the Met. Of course he was.

    She also was praised to the skies on appointment, of course.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/22/cressida-dick-appointed-first-female-met-police-commissioner
    … Theresa May said Dick had “an outstanding record of public service” and “the exceptional qualities needed to meet the challenge of leading the Met”. The prime minister added that her skills and insight “will be crucial in shaping the Met as the job of police reform continues, coordinating the national response to the ongoing threat of terrorism and serious criminality as well as keeping Londoners safe. In addition, she will be a champion of the most vulnerable who the police are there to protect”.

    Khan had early on identified Dick as his chosen candidate to be Met commissioner. He said: “She has already had a long and distinguished career, and her experience and ability has shone throughout this process...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,073
    HYUFD said:

    Ukraine is heading for stalemate, probably with some shared sovereignty over Crimea ultimately

    Crimea was incorporated into the Russian Federation some time ago and according to Russian legal theory is as much a part of Russia as Moscow. They are not going to cede it back except at gunpoint.
  • kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    ..

    Off topic and away from Felineophobia.

    A few posters have mentioned here that Labour's lead isn't being impacted by what is going on in the Middle East and the Pro-Palestine demos.

    It is a fair point to make but it is worth a reminder that the same was said around two years ago when we started to have the new stories start about BJ's behaviour and Tory leads were staying stable. It actually took time for the narrative to start being reflected in the polling numbers.

    FWIS, I think SKS has been fundamentally right with his stance but there may be come a point when voters start to associate the Labour brand as a whole as being sympathetic to the Palestinians and that is likely to be a drag if the current type of protests continue with protestors occupying train stations, marching on Remembrance Day, shouting at kids coming out off McDonalds etc.

    The opposite, I think. Most people are sympathetic to the Palestinians.
    Like to give some evidence for that? Most people seem to be neutral.
    Anecdotally I've always assumed much natural sympathy lies with the Palestinians. They are the ones lacking most of the power after all. It's not surprising to me that would still be the case.

    What has surprised me is many people going waaaay beyond that to open support of Hamas (or if not that far, of Hamas's actions, which is no real distinction).

    Sympathy for the plight of the civilian Palestinian doesn't require that, hence my surpise.
    Polling this weekend showed those claiming to be sympathetic to Palestinians with no sympathy for Israel at around 3% of those polled.

    We mustn’t let TV news and social media kid us that the crazies are the majority.
    If even 3% of people are tearing down posters of kidnapped Israelis, putting pictures of Hamas paragliders on their backpacks, and holding up signs showing a Star of David put into a trash can with a message about cleaning up the world, then that is 3% too many.

    But more problematic is that they are not quiet about such things, they are not sneaking about or being evasive about their opinion, they are open and proud of it. That says to me that whatever a poll says it is a lot more than 3% who think that way, or they'd not be confident enough to be so bold. White supremacists as a counter example usually (not always) seek to claim not to be white supremacists, they try to use more acceptable language to cover for what they think.

    Not so, here, little fear of being ostracised or condemned by anyone whose opinion they actually care about.
    That 3% will be concentrated among hard leftists and Muslims - two inward looking groups with echo chamber effects.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    Cyclefree said:

    Let's talk about the police instead.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/top-cop-risks-sack-over-snooping-on-accusers-qpv2fdmxc

    The first para sums it up.

    "One of Scotland Yard’s most senior officers is facing the sack if found guilty of procuring information held on police systems to undermine a bullying probe against him."

    A Deputy Assistant Commissioner. The article contains this gem - even after the bullying allegations against him were substantiated, he was promoted to become the Met's Head of Standards. (Who even realised the Met was meant to have standards let alone someone in charge of upholding them?)

    By whom?

    Need you ask. Cressida Dick. She appointed him because he was, in her eyes, a "very capable man” doing excellent work at the Met. Of course he was.

    Apart from ticking diversity boxes what did Cressida Dick do to continually get promoted ?
    She retired from the police then went to some unspecified job at the Foreign Office before coming back as Met Commissioner.

    Wild guess: she protected some higher up politico over the July 2005 shooting and promotion was her reward.
This discussion has been closed.