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Rasputitsa – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited November 2023 in General
imageRasputitsa – politicalbetting.com

Remember Ukraine ? Since 7th October the war in the East of Europe has been pretty much forgotten.  The Grim Reaper has probably taken a bigger toll in October in Ukraine than he has in the Middle East but that’s no longer news. And still the fighting goes on.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    edited November 2023
    I am told this picture boils the piss of Putin.

    Biden visited Kyiv before Putin.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,881
    edited November 2023

    I am told this picture boils the piss of Putin.

    Biden visited Kyiv before Putin.

    And Biden is wearing a British tie. American stripes go the other way. Russia is right to be suspicious that Britain is behind everything.
  • I am told this picture boils the piss of Putin.

    Biden visited Kyiv before Putin.

    And Biden is wearing a British tie. American stripes go the other way. Russia is right to be suspicious that Britain is behind everything.
    MI5 and the SIS are the best intelligence and security agencies in the world, they recruit the best.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    One factor related to Rasputitsa is this:

    http://wxmaps.org/pix/soil4

    It’s been unusually warm in Ukraine this autumn, particularly the South. And soil moisture is unusually low. So a bit of time before things get muddy.

    The fact the Ukrainian attacks are in the drier South while the Russian attacks are in the wetter cooler Donbas might count in Ukraine’s favour for a few weeks.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    edited November 2023
    In related news the Rasputitsa has begun at the vineyard. In early October it was bone dry and solid underfoot. 250mm of October rain and a further 100mm already in November later and it’s in full winter mud mode.

    Mud varies in texture. Sometimes waterlogged and squelchy, sometimes darkly organic and stainy, occasionally slick and wet like the runoff from a potters wheel. Mine is cakey. Big adhesive clumps that stick to your boots.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    I am told this picture boils the piss of Putin.

    Biden visited Kyiv before Putin.

    And Biden is wearing a British tie. American stripes go the other way. Russia is right to be suspicious that Britain is behind everything.
    MI5 and the SIS are the best intelligence and security agencies in the world, they recruit the best.
    And often the KGB recruits the same people.
  • In response to the previous thread header which I'd missed, I find it scary that 40% of Britons think the Covid19 response wasn't strict enough. No doubt many of the same people who wanted nightclubs permanently shuttered etc

    There is a strong illiberal trait to too many people in this country. How utterly depressing.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Remember, we shouldn't 'poke' Putin into invading Poland. It's all our fault really: if we hadn't absolutely promised Russia that NATO wouldn't expand; that the EU wouldn't enlargen, then Putin wouldn't have felt the need to satisfy his desire for a New Russia involving all those pesky Eastern European states. After all, they're all Russian really, aren't they?

    And the US is the root of all evil, of course...

    (/sarcasm)
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Off-topic:

    Something Number 10 is not responsible for...

    "National Highways has withdrawn claims the deaths of thousands of trees beside a new road might have been due to government pressure to open it early."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-67308830
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590
    Foxy said:

    I am told this picture boils the piss of Putin.

    Biden visited Kyiv before Putin.

    And Biden is wearing a British tie. American stripes go the other way. Russia is right to be suspicious that Britain is behind everything.
    MI5 and the SIS are the best intelligence and security agencies in the world, they recruit the best.
    And often the KGB recruits the same people.
    I think these days the Russians recruit the people with political oversight of the people they recruit.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    "The Ukraine"?

    Come on.
  • mwadams said:

    Foxy said:

    I am told this picture boils the piss of Putin.

    Biden visited Kyiv before Putin.

    And Biden is wearing a British tie. American stripes go the other way. Russia is right to be suspicious that Britain is behind everything.
    MI5 and the SIS are the best intelligence and security agencies in the world, they recruit the best.
    And often the KGB recruits the same people.
    I think these days the Russians recruit the people with political oversight of the people they recruit.
    Been doing that for decades, Roger Hollis, alumnus of Oxford, and Head of MI5 was believed to be a Russian mole.
  • "The Ukraine"?

    Come on.

    But in The World At War Sir Laurence Olivier always called it The Ukraine, these things imprint.
  • Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    Electorates are weird, not so long ago nearly 40% of those who voted thought it was a good idea to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    Electorates are weird, not so long ago nearly 40% of those who voted thought it was a good idea to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister.
    IIRC I voted Labour in 2019 and 2017. I wanted to see the back of Priti Patel.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    Electorates are weird, not so long ago nearly 40% of those who voted thought it was a good idea to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister.
    IIRC I voted Labour in 2019 and 2017. I wanted to see the back of Priti Patel.
    Did you not think that Corbyn might have put in someone *much* worse?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    Electorates are weird, not so long ago nearly 40% of those who voted thought it was a good idea to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister.
    IIRC I voted Labour in 2019 and 2017. I wanted to see the back of Priti Patel.
    Did you not think that Corbyn might have put in someone *much* worse?
    How? And no!
  • Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!

    India 100% deserve to be World Champions at the end of this tournament.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058

    Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!

    79/8 now. South Africa doing an England
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    Electorates are weird, not so long ago nearly 40% of those who voted thought it was a good idea to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister.
    IIRC I voted Labour in 2019 and 2017. I wanted to see the back of Priti Patel.
    Did you not think that Corbyn might have put in someone *much* worse?
    How? And no!
    Ahem. How about the likes of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Williamson_(politician)
  • "The Ukraine"?

    Come on.

    But in The World At War Sir Laurence Olivier always called it The Ukraine, these things imprint.
    Sir Larry used to do blackface, things change.

    One of my favourite bits of vintage gossip was Sir L. having an affair with Danny Kaye. As far as I can tell everyone was shagging everyone in them olden days.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Pierce Brosnan looking like Joe Biden.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt1BD_pGpZc
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    CatMan said:

    Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!

    79/8 now. South Africa doing an England
    Replace the 8 with a 9
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Small comfort, but England aren’t going to have the largest and most embarrassing defeat of the cricket WC.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    edited November 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Small comfort, but England aren’t going to have the largest and most embarrassing defeat of the cricket WC.

    Is anybody going to give India a game? I thought SA were the best option but this has been a one sided massacre.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    Electorates are weird, not so long ago nearly 40% of those who voted thought it was a good idea to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister.
    It's strange how everyone switching between a voting for an MP argument and a voting for the priminister agument according to what suits their argument. I voted for a long serving Labour MP who is very non-corbyn-ite.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!

    79/8 now. South Africa doing an England
    Replace the 8 with a 9
    Now replace the 7 with an 8, and the first 9 with a 3. And get rid of the second 9. Hope that's clear...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    The incredibly wasteful counter attacks by Russia have pushed Ukraine back into defensive mode for the last couple of months with almost no progress made. Their casualties have been nothing like the Russians but they have the weakness of caring about their people.

    I think this is going to be a very difficult winter for Ukraine. Maintaining morale os going to be a real challenge as the body bags continue to stream home.

    A change of Russian leadership is now probably their best chance.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!

    79/8 now. South Africa doing an England
    Replace the 8 with a 9
    Now replace the 7 with an 8, and the first 9 with a 3. And get rid of the second 9. Hope that's clear...
    Make it more complex by going into fractions. And when people get used to that, imaginary numbers...

    (Aren't imaginary numbers a high England score?)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    Because tens of millions of Americans are hurting hard at the moment, and their government seems to revel in boasting about how much money they can spend overseas, at the same time as leaving little for their own population.

    That last paragraph may seem like an exaggeration, but it’s the sort of sentiment that’s driving Trump’s support.

    Irrespective of who wins the next US election, Europe is going to have to think much more about their own defence in future, as the Americans turn from seeing Russia to China as their main enemy. European nations should be getting every available weapon into Ukraine now, to make damn sure that Russia is properly defeated militarily.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!

    79/8 now. South Africa doing an England
    Replace the 8 with a 9
    Now replace the 7 with an 8, and the first 9 with a 3. And get rid of the second 9. Hope that's clear...
    Make it more complex by going into fractions. And when people get used to that, imaginary numbers...

    (Aren't imaginary numbers a high England score?)
    Eng 425/7 50ovs, is way more difficult than the square root of minus one.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    Very 1990s feel to this World Cup.

    England are shit.

    The minnows pull off some hilarious upsets.

    South Africa choke at the key moments.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413
    Raspu-titsup.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    edited November 2023
    Europe needs to work more closely on defence. Maybe create a new organization. We could call it the European Unity, or the European Elite Column.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!

    79/8 now. South Africa doing an England
    Replace the 8 with a 9
    Now replace the 7 with an 8, and the first 9 with a 3. And get rid of the second 9. Hope that's clear...
    Make it more complex by going into fractions. And when people get used to that, imaginary numbers...

    (Aren't imaginary numbers a high England score?)
    Nobody has sufficient imagination to think of a high England score.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413
    CatMan said:

    Europe needs to work more closely on defence. Maybe create a new organization. We could call it the European Unity, or the European Elite Column.

    Or the Holy Roman Empire.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Coincidentally, from something I mentioned on the previous thread:

    "Senior officials in Downing Street discussed Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn forming a government of national unity at the height of Covid, it has emerged

    The plan was suggested by Helen MacNamara, the then deputy cabinet secretary
    @janemerrick23"

    https://twitter.com/ChaplainChloe/status/1721080012533621062
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!

    79/8 now. South Africa doing an England
    Replace the 8 with a 9
    Now replace the 7 with an 8, and the first 9 with a 3. And get rid of the second 9. Hope that's clear...
    Make it more complex by going into fractions. And when people get used to that, imaginary numbers...

    (Aren't imaginary numbers a high England score?)
    Nobody has sufficient imagination to think of a high England score.
    The true sign of an AI would be the creation of a compelling route to an England victory... ;)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371

    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!

    79/8 now. South Africa doing an England
    Replace the 8 with a 9
    Now replace the 7 with an 8, and the first 9 with a 3. And get rid of the second 9. Hope that's clear...
    Make it more complex by going into fractions. And when people get used to that, imaginary numbers...

    (Aren't imaginary numbers a high England score?)
    Nobody has sufficient imagination to think of a high England score.
    The true sign of an AI would be the creation of a compelling route to an England victory... ;)
    I think we'd be disputing the 'I' bit.
  • ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    Oh WOW. Just looked at the cricket. South Africa 71-7!

    79/8 now. South Africa doing an England
    Replace the 8 with a 9
    Now replace the 7 with an 8, and the first 9 with a 3. And get rid of the second 9. Hope that's clear...
    Make it more complex by going into fractions. And when people get used to that, imaginary numbers...

    (Aren't imaginary numbers a high England score?)
    Nobody has sufficient imagination to think of a high England score.
    The true sign of an AI would be the creation of a compelling route to an England victory... ;)
    Or maybe a novel featuring a female character called Rasputitsa.

    (Apols for drifting back on topic.)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    CatMan said:

    Europe needs to work more closely on defence. Maybe create a new organization. We could call it the European Unity, or the European Elite Column.

    Or the Holy Roman Empire.

    CatMan said:

    Europe needs to work more closely on defence. Maybe create a new organization. We could call it the European Unity, or the European Elite Column.

    Or the Holy Roman Empire.
    Sadly the HRE would on the whole be well off for blunderbusses and crossbows but lack the nuclear capability of UK and France. The Anglo-French European Empire would better describe this. If Trump prevails we shall need it.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241

    The West needs to keep supporting Ukraine until every square inch of Ukrainian territory is liberated.

    Its a long haul, these things don't happen overnight, but the west has deeper pockets than Russia does, so long as the west keeps up at it and doesn't give up. The Ukrainians don't want to give up and we should support them to the hilt unless or until they do, or more likely they succeed in full.

    You mean there may be a way to win a land war in Asia?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    CatMan said:

    Coincidentally, from something I mentioned on the previous thread:

    "Senior officials in Downing Street discussed Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn forming a government of national unity at the height of Covid, it has emerged

    The plan was suggested by Helen MacNamara, the then deputy cabinet secretary
    @janemerrick23"

    https://twitter.com/ChaplainChloe/status/1721080012533621062

    Starmer became Leader of the Opposition on the 4th April, so it wouldn't have lasted very long!
    Yeah, when I was thinking of it I'm sure Starmer was leader. Lockdown felt such a vast change to civil life it was, in my view, akin to a wartime experience. A government of national unity would have been an interesting experiment.
  • Off topic - Don't worry about the next GE. I was hearing this morning that Mr Sunak has his programme sorted.

    1) Make criminals attend their sentencing.

    2) Ban tents

    3) Reform leaseholding but only for some people.

    How can anyone doubt that a No 10 with such fingers on the pulse and such an instinct for spotting the big issues concerning the electorate will cruise to a comfortable fourth term?

    Wouldn't it be a fifth term?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    CatMan said:

    Coincidentally, from something I mentioned on the previous thread:

    "Senior officials in Downing Street discussed Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn forming a government of national unity at the height of Covid, it has emerged

    The plan was suggested by Helen MacNamara, the then deputy cabinet secretary
    @janemerrick23"

    https://twitter.com/ChaplainChloe/status/1721080012533621062

    Starmer became Leader of the Opposition on the 4th April, so it wouldn't have lasted very long!
    Yeah, when I was thinking of it I'm sure Starmer was leader. Lockdown felt such a vast change to civil life it was, in my view, akin to a wartime experience. A government of national unity would have been an interesting experiment.
    I was actually surprised this didn’t happen in many European countries.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    We don't know because it has never been seriously tested. The evidence that the Russians wish to find out is lacking. This all makes NATO one of the most successful military operations ever. As far as I am concerned this longer this goes on the better.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Isolating Crimea is surely the key for Ukraine. However without sufficient long range missiles and fighter jets that's a big ask.

    The Russian economy is stuttering and it's less than a year since the oil and gas sanctions came in. Why did the Saudis co-ordinate an oil production cut?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    It beggar's belief, how stupid can Americans be.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    Electorates are weird, not so long ago nearly 40% of those who voted thought it was a good idea to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister.
    That’s what an editor is for

    With power comes responsibility

    These things matter
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    DavidL said:

    The incredibly wasteful counter attacks by Russia have pushed Ukraine back into defensive mode for the last couple of months with almost no progress made. Their casualties have been nothing like the Russians but they have the weakness of caring about their people.

    I think this is going to be a very difficult winter for Ukraine. Maintaining morale os going to be a real challenge as the body bags continue to stream home.

    A change of Russian leadership is now probably their best chance.

    Morale will be fine

    They know the alternative is worse
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371

    Coincidentally, from something I mentioned on the previous thread:

    "Senior officials in Downing Street discussed Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn forming a government of national unity at the height of Covid, it has emerged

    The plan was suggested by Helen MacNamara, the then deputy cabinet secretary
    @janemerrick23"

    https://twitter.com/ChaplainChloe/status/1721080012533621062

    Thereby confirming my view that the entire staff of the cabinet office during Covid (with the possible exception of Sue Gray) were idiots.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Isolating Crimea is surely the key for Ukraine. However without sufficient long range missiles and fighter jets that's a big ask.

    (Snip)

    I heard a quote from someone in Ukraine that they were in a target-rich environment: they had enough intelligence to know loads of valuable targets, but not enough means to hit them. That must be annoying, to say the least.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited November 2023

    CatMan said:

    Coincidentally, from something I mentioned on the previous thread:

    "Senior officials in Downing Street discussed Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn forming a government of national unity at the height of Covid, it has emerged

    The plan was suggested by Helen MacNamara, the then deputy cabinet secretary
    @janemerrick23"

    https://twitter.com/ChaplainChloe/status/1721080012533621062

    Starmer became Leader of the Opposition on the 4th April, so it wouldn't have lasted very long!
    Yeah, when I was thinking of it I'm sure Starmer was leader. Lockdown felt such a vast change to civil life it was, in my view, akin to a wartime experience. A government of national unity would have been an interesting experiment.
    It’s entirely plausible it would have played to the Tories advantage, in hindsight. They’d have tied the Labour Party into all goings on, so if there had been lockdown parties Labour would have been tarred by the same brush.

    It is really worth recalling that the wheels only started to fall off this government when the news of the lockdown parties started coming out.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    Sandpit said:

    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.

    And yet the US has a sales tax no one complains about…

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035
    edited November 2023

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    It's only scary if you take the posturing drunk seriously. He threatened us with nuclear weapons several times last year iirc. We ignored him then and we should ignore him now. Even in Putin's Russia he is an unimportant wingnut. We didn't let the much more serious Russian blustering during the Cold War discourage us and we shouldn't let them now, otherwise they'll just do it more and more.

    I agree about Gaza being a sideshow compared to Ukraine (and Taiwan) though. We should be putting our economy onto much more of a war footing imho.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    As I understand it the tourist tax means incomers not having to pay for things what we have to pay for them.

    And who counts as a tourist? Someone on holiday? On a visa? A non-resident? A non-citizen?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Fishing said:

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    It's only scary if you take the posturing drunk seriously. He threatened us with nuclear weapons several times last year iirc. We ignored him then and we should ignore him now. Even in Putin's Russia he is an unimportant wingnut. We didn't let the much more serious Russian blustering during the Cold War discourage us and we shouldn't let them now, otherwise they'll just do it more and more.

    I agree about Gaza being a sideshow compared to Ukraine (and Taiwan) though. We should be putting our economy onto much more of a war footing imho.
    The thing is, we are probably not the intended audience of Medvedev's ramblings. He is not a fool, and he will know what he is saying (as will the wider Russian government). So who is the audience? Russian citizens? Citizens of pro-Russian states? Western tankies?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    Because tens of millions of Americans are hurting hard at the moment, and their government seems to revel in boasting about how much money they can spend overseas, at the same time as leaving little for their own population.

    That last paragraph may seem like an exaggeration, but it’s the sort of sentiment that’s driving Trump’s support.

    Irrespective of who wins the next US election, Europe is going to have to think much more about their own defence in future, as the Americans turn from seeing Russia to China as their main enemy. European nations should be getting every available weapon into Ukraine now, to make damn sure that Russia is properly defeated militarily.
    They are pretty stupid as well. They have had all their weapons tested for next to nothing ( mostly old stock) and have had on eof their 2 biggest enenmies crippled without losing a man. They should be happy as Larry.
    As a species, we have this unerring ability to foul our own nests.
  • "The Ukraine"?

    Come on.

    ""The Ukraine" is incorrect both grammatically and politically, says Oksana Kyzyma of the Embassy of Ukraine in London.

    "Ukraine is both the conventional short and long name of the country," she says. "This name is stated in the Ukrainian Declaration of Independence and Constitution."
    The use of the article relates to the time before independence in 1991, when Ukraine was a republic of the Soviet Union known as the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, she says. Since then, it should be merely Ukraine.
    There is no definite article in the Ukrainian or Russian languages and there is another theory why it crept into the English language."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Isolating Crimea is surely the key for Ukraine. However without sufficient long range missiles and fighter jets that's a big ask.

    The Russian economy is stuttering and it's less than a year since the oil and gas sanctions came in. Why did the Saudis co-ordinate an oil production cut?

    Because Biden snubbed MBS.

    Everyone in the West needs to be lobbying OPEC hard to get the oil price down, especially those with elections next year - because cheaper petrol and Putin being screwed are both good things.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    As I understand it the tourist tax means incomers not having to pay for things what we have to pay for them.

    And who counts as a tourist? Someone on holiday? On a visa? A non-resident? A non-citizen?

    All of the above and more, so long as the goods are being permanently exported from the UK after purchase.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Fishing said:

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    It's only scary if you take the posturing drunk seriously. He threatened us with nuclear weapons several times last year iirc. We ignored him then and we should ignore him now. Even in Putin's Russia he is an unimportant wingnut. We didn't let the much more serious Russian blustering during the Cold War discourage us and we shouldn't let them now, otherwise they'll just do it more and more.

    I agree about Gaza being a sideshow compared to Ukraine (and Taiwan) though. We should be putting our economy onto much more of a war footing imho.
    The thing is, we are probably not the intended audience of Medvedev's ramblings. He is not a fool, and he will know what he is saying (as will the wider Russian government). So who is the audience? Russian citizens? Citizens of pro-Russian states? Western tankies?
    I want someone to ask Medvedev for his thoughts on the Ukraine/Republic of China border….
  • The West needs to keep supporting Ukraine until every square inch of Ukrainian territory is liberated.

    Its a long haul, these things don't happen overnight, but the west has deeper pockets than Russia does, so long as the west keeps up at it and doesn't give up. The Ukrainians don't want to give up and we should support them to the hilt unless or until they do, or more likely they succeed in full.

    You mean there may be a way to win a land war in Asia?

    I mean there may be a way to make the Russian invaders lose a land war in Asia.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,075
    edited November 2023

    DavidL said:

    The incredibly wasteful counter attacks by Russia have pushed Ukraine back into defensive mode for the last couple of months with almost no progress made. Their casualties have been nothing like the Russians but they have the weakness of caring about their people.

    I think this is going to be a very difficult winter for Ukraine. Maintaining morale os going to be a real challenge as the body bags continue to stream home.

    A change of Russian leadership is now probably their best chance.

    Morale will be fine

    They know the alternative is worse
    I don't know about morale, even when people know the alternative is worse morale can suffer after all, but they know better than anyone, and the West should know as well but seems to be forgetting, that just ignoring it and letting things fall into a stalemate not only did not work when Putin invaded Crimea, but it very likely made him think he could go for even more later.

    It's just about understandable that we all ignored it then and were happy to abandon Ukraine to the point a grim stalemate was all they could do, it'd be unforgivably stupid to repeat that. Cost of supplies and support now may be tough, but compared to the cost of dialling back that support?
  • Sandpit said:

    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.

    Taxes should be low, flat and evenly applied.

    If tourists buy something, they should pay the same taxes as anyone else.

    When I go to the other side of the Atlantic I don't get a refund on any sales taxes levied there.

    The UK is a major hub for tourists annually, of course they should be paying taxes. Better than we do.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    edited November 2023

    Sandpit said:

    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.

    Taxes should be low, flat and evenly applied.

    If tourists buy something, they should pay the same taxes as anyone else.

    When I go to the other side of the Atlantic I don't get a refund on any sales taxes levied there.

    The UK is a major hub for tourists annually, of course they should be paying taxes. Better than we do.
    Actually some states do offer sales tax refunds to tourists, notably Louisiana and Texas.

    Edit to add: which I think is a pretty stupid idea
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    Totally off topic, but has anyone read Red Rising?

    It's quite a fun scifi tale.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Sandpit said:

    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.

    Taxes should be low, flat and evenly applied.

    If tourists buy something, they should pay the same taxes as anyone else.

    When I go to the other side of the Atlantic I don't get a refund on any sales taxes levied there.

    The UK is a major hub for tourists annually, of course they should be paying taxes. Better than we do.
    Errrr. Buying stuff and not paying sales tax is quite a big thing for visiting the IS. A classic is buying Apple product…
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    edited November 2023

    In response to the previous thread header which I'd missed, I find it scary that 40% of Britons think the Covid19 response wasn't strict enough. No doubt many of the same people who wanted nightclubs permanently shuttered etc

    There is a strong illiberal trait to too many people in this country. How utterly depressing.

    Yes indeed.

    My reaction is (yet again) to wonder about the polling and who the heck they are asking.

    Did the words 'the government' in the question impel opponents to give the answer which they thought was most critical? The other thing I notice (apols if this was discussed in previous thread) is the wording 'the Covid-19 outbreak'; could this be construed as referring to the first few weeks of the pandemic only.

    If the question had said: 'In hindsight, regarding the whole Covid pandemic, on balance were our freedoms restricted Too Much, Not Enough or About Right' then maybe the poll result would have different?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Sandpit said:

    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.

    Taxes should be low, flat and evenly applied.

    If tourists buy something, they should pay the same taxes as anyone else.

    When I go to the other side of the Atlantic I don't get a refund on any sales taxes levied there.

    The UK is a major hub for tourists annually, of course they should be paying taxes. Better than we do.
    Which means accepting that people who have a choice of where to shop, particularly Chinese and Arab tourists, are choosing to either buy luxury goods locally to themselves, or to visit jurisdictions that do give tax refunds to overseas visitors - such as everywhere else with VAT, especially in Europe.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,262
    I see Elon Musk has called his new AI “Grok”

    Now, unlike many pb-ers I admire Elon. He does amazing things. But my God, he is bad at names

    Grok????
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    Leon said:

    I see Elon Musk has called his new AI “Grok”

    Now, unlike many pb-ers I admire Elon. He does amazing things. But my God, he is bad at names

    Grok????

    It's just a fork of Facebook's Llama model.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137

    Sandpit said:

    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.

    Taxes should be low, flat and evenly applied.

    If tourists buy something, they should pay the same taxes as anyone else.

    When I go to the other side of the Atlantic I don't get a refund on any sales taxes levied there.

    The UK is a major hub for tourists annually, of course they should be paying taxes. Better than we do.
    Errrr. Buying stuff and not paying sales tax is quite a big thing for visiting the IS. A classic is buying Apple product…
    Lack of sales tax would not have been enough to encourage me to visit Islamic State.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,262
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I see Elon Musk has called his new AI “Grok”

    Now, unlike many pb-ers I admire Elon. He does amazing things. But my God, he is bad at names

    Grok????

    It's just a fork of Facebook's Llama model.
    Can’t tell if that’s a joke or actual insight
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Leon said:

    I see Elon Musk has called his new AI “Grok”

    Now, unlike many pb-ers I admire Elon. He does amazing things. But my God, he is bad at names

    Grok????

    Stranger In A Strange Land

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Leon said:

    I see Elon Musk has called his new AI “Grok”

    Now, unlike many pb-ers I admire Elon. He does amazing things. But my God, he is bad at names

    Grok????

    Stranger In A Strange Land

    I only knew it from Unix.

    https://www.unix.com/man-page/debian/1/grok/
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    edited November 2023

    Coincidentally, from something I mentioned on the previous thread:

    "Senior officials in Downing Street discussed Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn forming a government of national unity at the height of Covid, it has emerged

    The plan was suggested by Helen MacNamara, the then deputy cabinet secretary
    @janemerrick23"

    https://twitter.com/ChaplainChloe/status/1721080012533621062

    Given that Corbyn had announced his resignation months earlier and Starmer became Labour leader on 4th April 2020 it suggests that Helen MacNamara exceeds even the usual level of idiocy among the Downing Street civil servants.

    Edit: I see that has already been pointed out.

    Though why anyone thought decision making would be improved by having even more arguing politicians involved is beyond me.
  • Stocky said:

    In response to the previous thread header which I'd missed, I find it scary that 40% of Britons think the Covid19 response wasn't strict enough. No doubt many of the same people who wanted nightclubs permanently shuttered etc

    There is a strong illiberal trait to too many people in this country. How utterly depressing.

    Yes indeed.

    My reaction is (yet again) to wonder about the polling and who the heck they are asking.

    Did the words 'the government' in the question impel opponents to give the answer which they thought was most critical? The other thing I notice (apols if this was discussed in previous thread) is the wording 'the Covid-19 outbreak'; could this be construed as referring to the first few weeks of the pandemic only.

    If the question had said: 'In hindsight, regarding the whole Covid pandemic, on balance were our freedoms restricted Too Much, Not Enough or About Right' then maybe the poll result would have different?

    V interesting front page piece in Speccie this week from Heneghan about the public inquiry and all the questions it should be asking and isnt about the covid years.

    Inquiry has been v poor so far imho.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Burgessian said: "I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching."

    One of the reasons, which I have not seen discussed much here is the increasing distrust of Republicans for our "mainstream media".
    "In just five years, the percentage of Republicans with at least some trust in national news organizations has been cut in half – dropping from 70% in 2016 to 35% this year. This decline is fueling the continued widening of the partisan gap in trust of the media.

    A line graph showing that wider partisan gaps have emerged in trust of national and local news organizations, social media
    Nearly eight-in-ten Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents (78%) say they have “a lot” or “some” trust in the information that comes from national news organizations – 43 percentage points higher than Republicans and Republican leaners (35%) – according to a new Pew Research Center survey conducted June 14-27, 2021. This partisan gap is the largest of any time that this question has been asked since 2016. And it grows even wider – to 53 points – between liberal Democrats (83%) and conservative Republicans (30%).

    The 35% of Republicans who have at least some trust in national news organizations in 2021 is half that of in 2016 (70%) – and has dropped 14 points since late 2019 (49%). By comparison, Democrats have remained far more consistent in the past five years, ranging somewhere between 78% and 86%."
    source: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/08/30/partisan-divides-in-media-trust-widen-driven-by-a-decline-among-republicans/

    That timing should give you a clue as to one of the causes for that decrease in trust. If that isn't enough of a hint, think about the title of Bernard Goldberg's little book: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/a-slobbering-love-affair-bernard-goldberg/1114684276

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035
    edited November 2023

    Sandpit said:

    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.

    Taxes should be low, flat and evenly applied.

    If tourists buy something, they should pay the same taxes as anyone else.

    When I go to the other side of the Atlantic I don't get a refund on any sales taxes levied there.

    The UK is a major hub for tourists annually, of course they should be paying taxes. Better than we do.
    That's much too black and white. Many countries DO issue tax refunds to tourists. Many do not. Overseas experience doesn't give us a clear guide here. And low and uniform taxes are fine internally, because it helps economic activity here, but externally those advantages don't really apply.


    I know nuanced discussions about economic analysis don't fit well on internet discussion forums. But the guiding principle here should be whether the country as a whole (not just the government) is better or worse off for having this system in place. Does the revenue to shopkeepers, retailers, etc. lost from it offset the hit to the government? I haven't looked at the analysis so I'm not sure, and such studies are pretty sketchy anyway, but if we can get more money off foreigners in this instance we should do so.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Leon said:

    I see Elon Musk has called his new AI “Grok”

    Now, unlike many pb-ers I admire Elon. He does amazing things. But my God, he is bad at names

    Grok????

    Is Elon Musk Reggie Perrin in disguise?

    https://youtu.be/fH-E6J5TJTY?feature=shared
  • Sandpit said:

    Medvedev reportedly threatening Polish statehood. Scary. If Putin crushes Ukraine he won't stop there. I suspect rather than Poland he'll go for the Balts who were in the USSR. What would NATO members risk to protect the Estonians? This is existential. And, frankly, Gaza is a sideshow compared to this.

    Indeed, which is why we want Biden to win next year, only traitors want Trump to win next year.
    I still struggle to understand how a preening narcissistic moron like Trump can be in serious contention. Particularly with his record on Ukraine. It is gut-wrenching.
    Because tens of millions of Americans are hurting hard at the moment, and their government seems to revel in boasting about how much money they can spend overseas, at the same time as leaving little for their own population.

    That last paragraph may seem like an exaggeration, but it’s the sort of sentiment that’s driving Trump’s support.

    Irrespective of who wins the next US election, Europe is going to have to think much more about their own defence in future, as the Americans turn from seeing Russia to China as their main enemy. European nations should be getting every available weapon into Ukraine now, to make damn sure that Russia is properly defeated militarily.
    There's plenty of wealth in the USA but it might need distributing in a different way.

    If the GOP had any sense they would advocate higher taxes on the urban rich.
  • Sandpit said:

    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.

    Giving a tax cut to rich foreigners just to increase the profits of purveyors of overpriced consumer tat would not be viewed well when many people are struggling.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,130
    edited November 2023

    Leon said:

    I see Elon Musk has called his new AI “Grok”

    Now, unlike many pb-ers I admire Elon. He does amazing things. But my God, he is bad at names

    Grok????

    Stranger In A Strange Land

    I only knew it from Unix.

    https://www.unix.com/man-page/debian/1/grok/
    Yes, it's a very tech geek naming sensibility (and quite an old school one at that). No other big tech company would have picked that name because they'd have got marketing to do the naming, and the legal team would probably have advised against for IP reasons. But it might turn up as an internal project codename -- and in fact Google did have a Project Grok at one point: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Kythe#Grok
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    Leon said:

    I see Elon Musk has called his new AI “Grok”

    Now, unlike many pb-ers I admire Elon. He does amazing things. But my God, he is bad at names

    Grok????

    Stranger In A Strange Land

    I only knew it from Unix.

    https://www.unix.com/man-page/debian/1/grok/
    I knew it from both. I am very smug. :)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited November 2023

    In response to the previous thread header which I'd missed, I find it scary that 40% of Britons think the Covid19 response wasn't strict enough. No doubt many of the same people who wanted nightclubs permanently shuttered etc

    There is a strong illiberal trait to too many people in this country. How utterly depressing.

    Couldn't agree more. Probably the modern-day equivalent of curmudgeonly scrooges who dislike the idea of anyone doing anything interesting.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I see Elon Musk has called his new AI “Grok”

    Now, unlike many pb-ers I admire Elon. He does amazing things. But my God, he is bad at names

    Grok????

    It's just a fork of Facebook's Llama model.
    Can’t tell if that’s a joke or actual insight
    If you read the Reddit AI and LLM communities, they have tested it, and it seems to perform *extremely* similarly to Llama 2, except with (a) real time Twitter access and (b) a bit of a sense of humor.

    Building an LLM based on Llama is not such an impressive achievement as doing one from scratch.
  • Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    “Spreadsheet Rishi’s Tourist Tax” is going to be a big problem, with businesses attacking the PM from the right in favourable media outlets.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/05/rishi-sunak-scrambling-tourist-tax-vat-shopping-backlash/

    Personal anecdote - this is stopping me spending money on big-ticket items in the UK at the moment.

    Taxes should be low, flat and evenly applied.

    If tourists buy something, they should pay the same taxes as anyone else.

    When I go to the other side of the Atlantic I don't get a refund on any sales taxes levied there.

    The UK is a major hub for tourists annually, of course they should be paying taxes. Better than we do.
    That's much too black and white. Many countries DO issue tax refunds to tourists. Many do not. Overseas experience doesn't give us a clear guide here. And low and uniform taxes are fine internally, because it helps economic activity here, but externally those advantages don't really apply.


    I know nuanced discussions about economic analysis don't fit well on internet discussion forums. But the guiding principle here should be whether the country as a whole (not just the government) is better or worse off for having this system in place. Does the revenue to shopkeepers, retailers, etc. lost from it offset the hit to the government? I haven't looked at the analysis so I'm not sure, and such studies are pretty sketchy anyway, but if we can get more money off foreigners in this instance we should do so.
    That's too narrow a way of looking at it.

    The fairness / social justice factor needs to be considered as well.

    Even if it resulted in enough extra money for the purveyors of overpriced consumer tat to offset the loss in VAT that wouldn't make up for the aggravation felt by those people now having to pay a tax which rich foreigners did not have to.
  • rcs1000 said:
    Wisconsin surprised me in the sense that, if Biden was doing so badly in states like PA and MI, you would have thought WI would be showing Trump in a lead.
This discussion has been closed.