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Starmer is satisfying Lab councillors except on one topic. – politicalbetting.com

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    It's a disgrace that people are sleeping out in the open in tents.

    They should only be allowed a thin sleeping bag.

    Bags of Sleeping, please

    We have enough bigotry on here
  • nico679 said:

    Poor Charles having to read out what crap no 10 is going to offer for the next 12 months .

    I suppose he should feel relieved because the stain on humanity had originally thought of just culling the homeless , instead she’ll just hope for a freezing winter to finish them off .

    What's even weirder is that this same administration, during covid, protected the homeless by introducing measures to "bring them in".

    The Everyone In initiative
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9057/

    It's like the normal hate for anyone who has the audacity to fall through the cracks was put on hold during the pandemic but now it is back.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    isam said:

    MattW said:

    On the header, I wonder if a steady trickle of these types of Councillor defenestrating themselves is a plus for Mr Starmer?

    I’d say so - the slightly right of centre types who Sir Keir is trying to attract aren’t going to be put off voting Labour by a load of Islamic councillors quitting over Palestine
    One of his remaining issues is that there are still 35 MPs listed as being in the Socialist Campaign Group.

    Though it now allows in all MPs, not just Labour MPs - perhaps to protect Mr Corbyn?

    Not sure how many "independents" are in it - I make it Claudia Webbe, Andy McDonald, Jeremy Corbyn so far.
    If Labour gets 350-400 MPs the reality is we know precious little about many of these people.
    I seem to recall all this nonsense being trotted out before 1997. If Blair won, so it went, he would be a prisoner of the radical Left who would win enough seats to prevent "New" Labour governing effectively.

    419 MPs later...the reason why New Labour didn't govern effectively was nothing to do with "the Left".
    I'd make two points:

    1 - It is not clear that Mr Starmer will get anything like that many MPs.

    2 - The more recent example of an extreme faction is the last 8-9 years of Conservative Governments, and that did not exactly prove their lack-of-influence.
    Beyond the tipping point, any such argument (in the pocket of the SNP, the left wing etc) becomes an argument to give him MORE MPs, not to prevent him getting there in the first place.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    edited November 2023
    I see UNISON have settled. £1925 pa rise for the very lowest paid local government workers.
    Yet more pressure on school budgets.
    And a vast majority of that will be clawed back in tax and withdrawal of UC from teaching assistants.
    So. A pay rise nominally of 9.25%. The workers gain relatively little. Probably nearer 2-4% after tax and benefits. The schools lose a lot, cos they have to find the entire amount.
    But the government loses net relatively little. A lot less than inflation.
  • Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    @isam, the guy who did the soundtrack for The Long Good Friday was Francis Monkman. The soundtrack, and in particular the ending, is on YouTube, along with some nice remixes/covers.

    OK here’s something maybe more interesting that “fave 90s music” (I mean, really??)

    How about Best Original Soundtrack - musicals excluded (they don’t count)

    I’m going for Pride and Prejudice (the Keira Knightley version)

    The Wicker Man (An extraordinary unique thing by Paul Giovanni, who died soon after)

    And

    Schindler’s List (the main theme of that could easily be a masterpiece from the golden age of classical music)


    https://youtu.be/cLgJQ8Zj3AA?si=t9gRP6bXEZdixrcV

    Sublime
    Chariots of Fire:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8a-HfNE3EIo
    Star Fucking Wars!
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    dixiedean said:

    I see UNISON have settled. £1925 pa rise for the very lowest paid local government workers.
    Yet more pressure on school budgets.
    And a vast majority of that will be clawed back in tax and withdrawal of UC from teaching assistants.
    So. A pay rise nominally of 9.25%. The workers gain relatively little. Probably nearer 2-4% after tax and benefits. The schools lose a lot, cos they have to find the entire amount.
    But the government loses net relatively little.

    Taking into account the tax and UC. Take into account inflation too, and it may be close to zero.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,558
    edited November 2023
    CatMan said:

    Anyway, Underworld - Born Slippy is the ultimate 90s song

    https://youtu.be/XiMrrleH_hI?si=i_KVHZZI2ROAmreW

    The band has an interesting history. They had a big hit in 1988 (particularly in Australia) with Underneath The Radar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br8AvTqZ0w4

    The band's previous incarnation was Fleur, who had an interesting minor hit in 1983 with Doot Doot.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aexff90ZWiQ
  • Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    geoffw said:

     

    Leon said:

    geoffw said:

    Best soundtrack: The Third Man

    Hmm. The main theme is iconic and evocative, but would you listen to it by itself, for pleasure?

    No, but you're making up the criteria as you go

    Fair enough

    To be the best I think it has to be

    Original to the film
    Perfectly suited to the film
    But also music you would listen to by itself without the film

    I was about to say Cavatina in the Deer Hunter but it turns out that has a more complex history:


    “Cavatina" is a 1970 classical guitar piece by British composer Stanley Myers based on music originally written for the soundtrack of the film The Walking Stick (1970). After Myers expanded the piece and it was recorded by guitarist John Williams, "Cavatina" was popularized as the theme from the 1978 film The Deer Hunter.”


    (Wiki)
    ok then, the soundtrack to Elvira Madigan
    I've listened to that dozens of times

    edit - Pfft not actually written for the film!

    Lara’s Theme from Doctor Zhivago must be up there. A bit cheesy but a great choon

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    edited November 2023
    carnforth said:

    dixiedean said:

    I see UNISON have settled. £1925 pa rise for the very lowest paid local government workers.
    Yet more pressure on school budgets.
    And a vast majority of that will be clawed back in tax and withdrawal of UC from teaching assistants.
    So. A pay rise nominally of 9.25%. The workers gain relatively little. Probably nearer 2-4% after tax and benefits. The schools lose a lot, cos they have to find the entire amount.
    But the government loses net relatively little.

    Taking into account the tax and UC. Take into account inflation too, and it may be close to zero.
    Yeah.
    It's a real terms cut.
    Any extra take home is a reduction at 55(!!)p in the pound off UC.
    Talk about marginal tax rates for those on £100k!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    Yes, they’re a thing. Next
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:

    ohnotnow said:

    ohnotnow said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    Next up: make it an offence to give food to food banks?
    If she's making a leadership bit then giving to food 'pantries' might make more sense.
    ??
    Penny Mordaunt refers to her local foodbanks as 'food pantries' as they are different, in some way.
    Yes, because people only come to them for luxuries, you know, like petits fours and scones with clotted cream. All the jars have little check gingham cloth covers especially put over the lids, too.
    The “pantries” are a slightly different concept to “food banks” - the idea is something like a shared larder, rather than giving people a box of food.

    The idea is to reduce food waste by cooperation between people and to encourage exchanging cooking skills and ideas.
    My food bank never "gave" anyone anything.
    They chose from a large selection which was freely offered.
    No one needed to take anything they didn't know how to cook. Why would they?
    To pick something up, because you see someone else going for it, and then getting cold feet later, is a pattern of human behaviour.

    People are strange. They are shy about what they don’t know.

    Helping break down that shyness, that haven’t-done-this-before, without humiliation is also a very human thing. Different things fit different people.
    Things that trouble me deeply:

    1. The growth of food banks over the past 15 years.
    2. That a family with both parents working full-time can't live without UC or similar support.
    3. That we subsidise BTL owners through Housing Benefit or UC housing element.
    ...
    I could go on.

    All these in the nation that has the 6th largest economy in the world.
    What on earth does the total GDP have to do with it? The per capita figure, sure.
    Whatever. My three points still remain unanswered though.
    Counterpoints:

    1. Supply-driven due to Cameron allowing vouchers to be handed out at job centres not just by GPs and social workers. Hence the proliferation of the Trussel trust. Also self-perpetuating: the shame of asking for help is diminished when other people are doing it. This reduction in societal shame is probably a good thing.
    2. Two parents in min wage full time jobs would have a gross income of £34000. Won't wash in London, but fine oop north.
    3. We're subsidising the tenant.

    (I won't claim to be sure about any of these, but since you asked....)
    1. That's bollocks, we give out food boxes at my Citizens Advice but only when people are way up shit creek and basically faced with stealing or going hungry for a period.
    2. Down here in leafy Dorset two adults working full-time on minimum wage with two children renting a 3 bed flat will be getting help via UC for that rent, despite their earnings. Now you may say the UC rules are too generous but not many share that view.
    3. We're subsidising the owners - they get the rent.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12291361/Homeless-rebuild-tented-city-Londons-Park-Lane-just-yards-Dorchester-Hotel.html

    Nothing compared with the US, though.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090

    Modern music? I have to put in a word for Steven Wilson's The Harmony Codex (my avatar). Its his OK Computer - brilliantly simple yet fiendishly complicated. Several bits of it are practically orgasmic.

    Geek bits. SW says listen to the album in Atmos on Apple Music (after attacking iPods in the past). Yes it sounds spectacular in pseudo-Atmos. But Apple Music's interface is sheissen compared to Spotify. So I'm not going to pay extra dollah for it.

    I'm going to an immersive playback of Steven Wilson's new spatial audio mix of Yes's The Yes Album on Tuesday.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    Are people living in them? Yes.

    Are they upsetting the DM readers? Not so much round here as they tend to be tucked away out of sight.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    @isam, the guy who did the soundtrack for The Long Good Friday was Francis Monkman. The soundtrack, and in particular the ending, is on YouTube, along with some nice remixes/covers.

    OK here’s something maybe more interesting that “fave 90s music” (I mean, really??)

    How about Best Original Soundtrack - musicals excluded (they don’t count)

    I’m going for Pride and Prejudice (the Keira Knightley version)

    The Wicker Man (An extraordinary unique thing by Paul Giovanni, who died soon after)

    And

    Schindler’s List (the main theme of that could easily be a masterpiece from the golden age of classical music)


    https://youtu.be/cLgJQ8Zj3AA?si=t9gRP6bXEZdixrcV

    Sublime
    Chariots of Fire:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8a-HfNE3EIo
    Not Fire Chariots then? Leon will be happy.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    edited November 2023
    The £1925 is also pro rata for those in education.
    Not sure why statutory holidays, set by the government, means doing a 38 hour week means you are paid for 32?
    Simply take on more overtime hours is the usual government response. In a workplace which is closed by legislation?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    Are people living in them? Yes.

    Are they upsetting the DM readers? Not so much round here as they tend to be tucked away out of sight.
    You live in fucking Dorset

    It’s always good to here from the affluent PB lefties in the nicer shires and small towns of Britain that homelessness is not a problem and no one lives in tents on the street

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12291361/Homeless-rebuild-tented-city-Londons-Park-Lane-just-yards-Dorchester-Hotel.html

    Nothing compared with the US, though.
    And 'just yards from the Dorchester Hotel' - how terrible for those people trying to get into the hotel without being upset by the poor.
  • Right, if the conversation is on film scores, then you have left me with no choice but to fire up the laptop and give you some ideas (even though it's past my bedtime.)

    Almost anything by Michael Nyman - The Draughtsman's Contract, obviously, but also A Zed and Two Noughts and (my personal favourite) Gattaca. He's the man who first applied the word "minimalism" to contemporary music, which is a pity, because it turns many people off, but his work is exceptional. His string quartets have popped up in a few TV things (also well worth listening to) but on some of his other stuff (The Man in the Suit, for example) I know the score but haven't seen the film.

    So, there's your answer - Michael Nyman.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    Are people living in them? Yes.

    Are they upsetting the DM readers? Not so much round here as they tend to be tucked away out of sight.
    You live in fucking Dorset

    It’s always good to here from the affluent PB lefties in the nicer shires and small towns of Britain that homelessness is not a problem and no one lives in tents on the street

    Mate, what are you talking about? Read my posts.

    I know that homelessness is a problem - I help people every week who are struggling with it.

    And sure Dorset's pretty affluent overall but there's still plenty of poverty here.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Right, if the conversation is on film scores, then you have left me with no choice but to fire up the laptop and give you some ideas (even though it's past my bedtime.)

    Almost anything by Michael Nyman - The Draughtsman's Contract, obviously, but also A Zed and Two Noughts and (my personal favourite) Gattaca. He's the man who first applied the word "minimalism" to contemporary music, which is a pity, because it turns many people off, but his work is exceptional. His string quartets have popped up in a few TV things (also well worth listening to) but on some of his other stuff (The Man in the Suit, for example) I know the score but haven't seen the film.

    So, there's your answer - Michael Nyman.

    Good call

    Draughtsman’s Contract is in my Apple Tunes library, as a standalone song, the ultimate test

    Indeed I remember and treasure the song better than the movie. Can barely recall a thing about the movie, but the main theme tune I still play regularly
  • Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    Two "villages" of them here in Reading that I know of.
  • Modern music? I have to put in a word for Steven Wilson's The Harmony Codex (my avatar). Its his OK Computer - brilliantly simple yet fiendishly complicated. Several bits of it are practically orgasmic.

    Geek bits. SW says listen to the album in Atmos on Apple Music (after attacking iPods in the past). Yes it sounds spectacular in pseudo-Atmos. But Apple Music's interface is sheissen compared to Spotify. So I'm not going to pay extra dollah for it.

    I'm going to an immersive playback of Steven Wilson's new spatial audio mix of Yes's The Yes Album on Tuesday.
    He is the musical phenomenon most people haven't heard of. Via his various bands / guises (Steven Wilson / Porcupine Tree / No Man / Blackfield / Bass Communion / IEM) he's released something like 35 albums since the mid 90s. And as a remix producer he is the go-to guy for modern sound production.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    Are people living in them? Yes.

    Are they upsetting the DM readers? Not so much round here as they tend to be tucked away out of sight.
    You live in fucking Dorset

    It’s always good to here from the affluent PB lefties in the nicer shires and small towns of Britain that homelessness is not a problem and no one lives in tents on the street

    There's homelessness in the countryside you just need to know where to look.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    Don't Look Now has a good score imo.
  • Film Scores?

    Interstellar.

    Oh. My. God.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    AI Music? lets have a thumbs-up for Now and Then by The Beatles. The newly released video demonstrates just how long this track took to get made.

    Yoko Ahoy handed over the original demo in 1994. They worked on it as a 3 piece in 1995 (as shown on the video) but couldn't pull out John's vocals from the Piano from the 60hz buzz, so dropped it from completion for Anthology 3.

    And now AI fixes it. Set aside whether you like the song or not (and I do). The technology to realise this is stunning. Yes I sound like @Leon but AI is here and we can't ignore it.

    I'm doing a tidy job of ignoring it and I reckon I can keep that up for a while yet.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    Are people living in them? Yes.

    Are they upsetting the DM readers? Not so much round here as they tend to be tucked away out of sight.
    You live in fucking Dorset

    It’s always good to here from the affluent PB lefties in the nicer shires and small towns of Britain that homelessness is not a problem and no one lives in tents on the street

    Mate, what are you talking about? Read my posts.

    I know that homelessness is a problem - I help people every week who are struggling with it.

    And sure Dorset's pretty affluent overall but there's still plenty of poverty here.
    Fair enough ,I didn’t read your comment properly: my apologies

    It is annoying when lefty people - not you - weigh in on the homeless issue and say ”surely people don’t live in tents, what is Braverman on about”

    I have at least half a dozen doing exactly that within 200m of my flat in Camden. They need to be humanely moved on because they pile up garbage which attracts more garbage and then you get rats and then eventually you get San Francisco
  • Leon said:

    Right, if the conversation is on film scores, then you have left me with no choice but to fire up the laptop and give you some ideas (even though it's past my bedtime.)

    Almost anything by Michael Nyman - The Draughtsman's Contract, obviously, but also A Zed and Two Noughts and (my personal favourite) Gattaca. He's the man who first applied the word "minimalism" to contemporary music, which is a pity, because it turns many people off, but his work is exceptional. His string quartets have popped up in a few TV things (also well worth listening to) but on some of his other stuff (The Man in the Suit, for example) I know the score but haven't seen the film.

    So, there's your answer - Michael Nyman.

    Good call

    Draughtsman’s Contract is in my Apple Tunes library, as a standalone song, the ultimate test

    Indeed I remember and treasure the song better than the movie. Can barely recall a thing about the movie, but the main theme tune I still play regularly
    (Mate, it's not a song! It's orchestral throughout.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    Right, if the conversation is on film scores, then you have left me with no choice but to fire up the laptop and give you some ideas (even though it's past my bedtime.)

    Almost anything by Michael Nyman - The Draughtsman's Contract, obviously, but also A Zed and Two Noughts and (my personal favourite) Gattaca. He's the man who first applied the word "minimalism" to contemporary music, which is a pity, because it turns many people off, but his work is exceptional. His string quartets have popped up in a few TV things (also well worth listening to) but on some of his other stuff (The Man in the Suit, for example) I know the score but haven't seen the film.

    So, there's your answer - Michael Nyman.

    Good call

    Draughtsman’s Contract is in my Apple Tunes library, as a standalone song, the ultimate test

    Indeed I remember and treasure the song better than the movie. Can barely recall a thing about the movie, but the main theme tune I still play regularly
    (Mate, it's not a song! It's orchestral throughout.)
    Oh good grief. OK a tune

    I know PB is Neurodivergent Central but EEEEESH
  • Leon said:

    Right, if the conversation is on film scores, then you have left me with no choice but to fire up the laptop and give you some ideas (even though it's past my bedtime.)

    Almost anything by Michael Nyman - The Draughtsman's Contract, obviously, but also A Zed and Two Noughts and (my personal favourite) Gattaca. He's the man who first applied the word "minimalism" to contemporary music, which is a pity, because it turns many people off, but his work is exceptional. His string quartets have popped up in a few TV things (also well worth listening to) but on some of his other stuff (The Man in the Suit, for example) I know the score but haven't seen the film.

    So, there's your answer - Michael Nyman.

    Good call

    Draughtsman’s Contract is in my Apple Tunes library, as a standalone song, the ultimate test

    Indeed I remember and treasure the song better than the movie. Can barely recall a thing about the movie, but the main theme tune I still play regularly
    Zbigniew Preisner's film music.

  • Film Scores?

    Interstellar.

    Oh. My. God.

    Hans Zimmer also did Inception and The Dark Knight trilogy.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Right, if the conversation is on film scores, then you have left me with no choice but to fire up the laptop and give you some ideas (even though it's past my bedtime.)

    Almost anything by Michael Nyman - The Draughtsman's Contract, obviously, but also A Zed and Two Noughts and (my personal favourite) Gattaca. He's the man who first applied the word "minimalism" to contemporary music, which is a pity, because it turns many people off, but his work is exceptional. His string quartets have popped up in a few TV things (also well worth listening to) but on some of his other stuff (The Man in the Suit, for example) I know the score but haven't seen the film.

    So, there's your answer - Michael Nyman.

    Good call

    Draughtsman’s Contract is in my Apple Tunes library, as a standalone song, the ultimate test

    Indeed I remember and treasure the song better than the movie. Can barely recall a thing about the movie, but the main theme tune I still play regularly
    (Mate, it's not a song! It's orchestral throughout.)
    Oh good grief. OK a tune

    I know PB is Neurodivergent Central but EEEEESH
    Sorry about that. One of the reasons I no longer use Apple Tunes (or whatever it's called) is because it insists on calling everything a song - including Mahler's 2nd.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    Are people living in them? Yes.

    Are they upsetting the DM readers? Not so much round here as they tend to be tucked away out of sight.
    You live in fucking Dorset

    It’s always good to here from the affluent PB lefties in the nicer shires and small towns of Britain that homelessness is not a problem and no one lives in tents on the street

    Mate, what are you talking about? Read my posts.

    I know that homelessness is a problem - I help people every week who are struggling with it.

    And sure Dorset's pretty affluent overall but there's still plenty of poverty here.
    Fair enough ,I didn’t read your comment properly: my apologies

    It is annoying when lefty people - not you - weigh in on the homeless issue and say ”surely people don’t live in tents, what is Braverman on about”

    I have at least half a dozen doing exactly that within 200m of my flat in Camden. They need to be humanely moved on because they pile up garbage which attracts more garbage and then you get rats and then eventually you get San Francisco
    Apology accepted. Thanks.

    I also sympathise with the genuine issues it causes for others not just the homeless themselves. But Braverman's solution 'fine charities giving out tents' is all typically arse about face: the supply of tents does not cause homelessness.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843
    edited November 2023

    Right, if the conversation is on film scores, then you have left me with no choice but to fire up the laptop and give you some ideas (even though it's past my bedtime.)

    Almost anything by Michael Nyman - The Draughtsman's Contract, obviously, but also A Zed and Two Noughts and (my personal favourite) Gattaca. He's the man who first applied the word "minimalism" to contemporary music, which is a pity, because it turns many people off, but his work is exceptional. His string quartets have popped up in a few TV things (also well worth listening to) but on some of his other stuff (The Man in the Suit, for example) I know the score but haven't seen the film.

    So, there's your answer - Michael Nyman.

    John Williams:

    Star Wars
    Jaws
    ET
    Superman
    Close Encounters
    Schindler's List
    Indiana Jones
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    Film Scores?

    Interstellar.

    Oh. My. God.

    Hans Zimmer also did Inception and The Dark Knight trilogy.
    Dunkirk too! Another excellent film score.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Andy_JS said:

    CatMan said:

    Anyway, Underworld - Born Slippy is the ultimate 90s song

    https://youtu.be/XiMrrleH_hI?si=i_KVHZZI2ROAmreW

    The band has an interesting history. They had a big hit in 1988 (particularly in Australia) with Underneath The Radar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br8AvTqZ0w4

    The band's previous incarnation was Fleur, who had an interesting minor hit in 1983 with Doot Doot.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aexff90ZWiQ
    Freur not Fleur. But yes. Underworld are fantastic. Basically the pure-dance version of New Order. One of those precious few bands where I would buy every album and know it's going to be awesome.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    90s music - tomorrow night I'm doing Killing in the Name at our local Punk Rock Karaoke night. Brings the house down every time.

    We do karaoke a lot in our house as the Ukrainians are very fond of all such performing arts tomfoolery. My go to song is Don't Wanna Miss a Thing by Aerosmith. I even do the Steven Tyler fingers.

    My suggestions for other pb.com regulars' karaoke selections...

    Barty Bobs - Rabbit by Chas n Dave
    Leon - Still Hood by Lil Baby & Lil Durk
    HYUFD - Blue (Ba Da Bee) by Eiffel 65
    Malmesbury - Stop Me If You've Think Heard This One Before by the Smiths
    BJO - Please Explain by Burt Bacharach
    Doug Seal - Elizabeth by the Statler Brothers
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,792

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    Are people living in them? Yes.

    Are they upsetting the DM readers? Not so much round here as they tend to be tucked away out of sight.
    You live in fucking Dorset

    It’s always good to here from the affluent PB lefties in the nicer shires and small towns of Britain that homelessness is not a problem and no one lives in tents on the street

    There's homelessness in the countryside you just need to know where to look.
    I have recently created a GPT discord bot who role plays as a London city boy who constantly boasts about their rarely used 2nd home and cheap domestics in Cornwall just to annoy a Cornish guy who uses the server.
  • kinabalu said:

    AI Music? lets have a thumbs-up for Now and Then by The Beatles. The newly released video demonstrates just how long this track took to get made.

    Yoko Ahoy handed over the original demo in 1994. They worked on it as a 3 piece in 1995 (as shown on the video) but couldn't pull out John's vocals from the Piano from the 60hz buzz, so dropped it from completion for Anthology 3.

    And now AI fixes it. Set aside whether you like the song or not (and I do). The technology to realise this is stunning. Yes I sound like @Leon but AI is here and we can't ignore it.

    I'm doing a tidy job of ignoring it and I reckon I can keep that up for a while yet.
    As I said, park whether you like it or not. This is a piece of music lost to the tape it was recorded on. Vocal folded into Piano and a HUMMMM over the top of that. The AI has extracted the voice from all of that to make recording it possible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    This talk of tents has made me thankful to head off to a warm bed in a nice house.

    The prospect of facing a winter sleeping in a tent must be horrendous.

    Almost everyone being dry and warm most of the time would probably blow the mind of poor people in previous centuries. Add in not hungry as well and I'm certainly glad to live now, even with WW3 and/or an AI apocalypse to look forward to.
  • So, moving on to the Xmas adverts.

    What is the board game that gets upended in this M&S advert?


    https://twitter.com/marksandspencer/status/1719621634984759346
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,792
    Dura_Ace said:

    90s music - tomorrow night I'm doing Killing in the Name at our local Punk Rock Karaoke night. Brings the house down every time.

    We do karaoke a lot in our house as the Ukrainians are very fond of all such performing arts tomfoolery. My go to song is Don't Wanna Miss a Thing by Aerosmith. I even do the Steven Tyler fingers.

    My suggestions for other pb.com regulars' karaoke selections...

    Barty Bobs - Rabbit by Chas n Dave
    Leon - Still Hood by Lil Baby & Lil Durk
    HYUFD - Blue (Ba Da Bee) by Eiffel 65
    Malmesbury - Stop Me If You've Think Heard This One Before by the Smiths
    BJO - Please Explain by Burt Bacharach
    Doug Seal - Elizabeth by the Statler Brothers
    I'd be interested to know what your Ukrainian friends make of this :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v7oTFSvpCo

    One of my favourite bits of music. But willing to be told it's kitsch crap...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Does the Jungle Book count?

    There are a lot of songs - tunes - but it’s not quite a musical (otherwise it would be excluded)

    So if we can include it,then it’s up there

    Two brilliant tracks:

    The Bare Necessities
    King of the Swingers (I wanna be like you)


  • On the Braverman thing - what baffles me is the cloth-ear-dness of it all with regard to her natural supporters. As it happens, many of my friends and extended family are church-goers of one denomination or another. All over the country. And almost all of their churches are involved with some sort of poverty relief in the UK. Churches are opened for rough sleepers, food kitchens and night shelters manned, welfare counselling provided to help with benefits claims etc. These people are NOT going to be amused by the jackboot heel going down hard. Even worse, this government minister seems to be indicating that these churches might actually be part of the problem. The floating voters amongst them - and the Conservatives - are going to react rather strongly on Polling Day.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,792

    kinabalu said:

    AI Music? lets have a thumbs-up for Now and Then by The Beatles. The newly released video demonstrates just how long this track took to get made.

    Yoko Ahoy handed over the original demo in 1994. They worked on it as a 3 piece in 1995 (as shown on the video) but couldn't pull out John's vocals from the Piano from the 60hz buzz, so dropped it from completion for Anthology 3.

    And now AI fixes it. Set aside whether you like the song or not (and I do). The technology to realise this is stunning. Yes I sound like @Leon but AI is here and we can't ignore it.

    I'm doing a tidy job of ignoring it and I reckon I can keep that up for a while yet.
    As I said, park whether you like it or not. This is a piece of music lost to the tape it was recorded on. Vocal folded into Piano and a HUMMMM over the top of that. The AI has extracted the voice from all of that to make recording it possible.
    While I was on holiday a month or so back - I passed ancient MP3 tape recordings of long lost radio plays to one of the voice-to-text 'AIs', then passed those to a 'text-to-voice AI' and ended up with a very tidied up quality version of the original.

    I think there are a lot of changes on the way.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    Does the Jungle Book count?

    There are a lot of songs - tunes - but it’s not quite a musical (otherwise it would be excluded)

    So if we can include it,then it’s up there

    Two brilliant tracks:

    The Bare Necessities
    King of the Swingers (I wanna be like you)


    Has to be a musical, shirley?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    ohnotnow said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    90s music - tomorrow night I'm doing Killing in the Name at our local Punk Rock Karaoke night. Brings the house down every time.

    We do karaoke a lot in our house as the Ukrainians are very fond of all such performing arts tomfoolery. My go to song is Don't Wanna Miss a Thing by Aerosmith. I even do the Steven Tyler fingers.

    My suggestions for other pb.com regulars' karaoke selections...

    Barty Bobs - Rabbit by Chas n Dave
    Leon - Still Hood by Lil Baby & Lil Durk
    HYUFD - Blue (Ba Da Bee) by Eiffel 65
    Malmesbury - Stop Me If You've Think Heard This One Before by the Smiths
    BJO - Please Explain by Burt Bacharach
    Doug Seal - Elizabeth by the Statler Brothers
    I'd be interested to know what your Ukrainian friends make of this :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v7oTFSvpCo

    One of my favourite bits of music. But willing to be told it's kitsch crap...
    I don't think they'd have any opinion on it at all as they are teenagers and therefore like K-Pop. It'd be like asking a British teenager for their views on I've Got a Lovely Bunch of Coconuts.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,792
    Leon said:

    Does the Jungle Book count?

    There are a lot of songs - tunes - but it’s not quite a musical (otherwise it would be excluded)

    So if we can include it,then it’s up there

    Two brilliant tracks:

    The Bare Necessities
    King of the Swingers (I wanna be like you)


    One of my old animation favourites is "We are Siamese, if you please. We are Siamese if you don't please."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG5mOd8Ubsk

  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,792
    Dura_Ace said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    90s music - tomorrow night I'm doing Killing in the Name at our local Punk Rock Karaoke night. Brings the house down every time.

    We do karaoke a lot in our house as the Ukrainians are very fond of all such performing arts tomfoolery. My go to song is Don't Wanna Miss a Thing by Aerosmith. I even do the Steven Tyler fingers.

    My suggestions for other pb.com regulars' karaoke selections...

    Barty Bobs - Rabbit by Chas n Dave
    Leon - Still Hood by Lil Baby & Lil Durk
    HYUFD - Blue (Ba Da Bee) by Eiffel 65
    Malmesbury - Stop Me If You've Think Heard This One Before by the Smiths
    BJO - Please Explain by Burt Bacharach
    Doug Seal - Elizabeth by the Statler Brothers
    I'd be interested to know what your Ukrainian friends make of this :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v7oTFSvpCo

    One of my favourite bits of music. But willing to be told it's kitsch crap...
    I don't think they'd have any opinion on it at all as they are teenagers and therefore like K-Pop. It'd be like asking a British teenager for their views on I've Got a Lovely Bunch of Coconuts.
    Ah.
  • M&S advert ‘puts two fingers up to spirit of Christmas’, says headteacher

    Katharine Birbalsingh tells retailer its Christmas ad featuring celebrities’ seasonal peeves will stifle children’s happiness

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/03/ms-advert-puts-two-fingers-up-to-spirit-of-christmas-says-headteacher
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,558
    A film is just starting on BBC called The Nest (2020). On Rotten Tomatoes it has a critics' rating of 90% and an audience rating of 46%. It's always curious when you have such a big divergence between the two types of rating.

    https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_nest_2020
  • On the Braverman thing - what baffles me is the cloth-ear-dness of it all with regard to her natural supporters. As it happens, many of my friends and extended family are church-goers of one denomination or another. All over the country. And almost all of their churches are involved with some sort of poverty relief in the UK. Churches are opened for rough sleepers, food kitchens and night shelters manned, welfare counselling provided to help with benefits claims etc. These people are NOT going to be amused by the jackboot heel going down hard. Even worse, this government minister seems to be indicating that these churches might actually be part of the problem. The floating voters amongst them - and the Conservatives - are going to react rather strongly on Polling Day.

    Its simple. She assumes that the target voters are amoral morons. The right wing has weaponised stupidity and ignorance - they want people to be Outraged by the idea of the homeless being given a tent...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Right, if the conversation is on film scores, then you have left me with no choice but to fire up the laptop and give you some ideas (even though it's past my bedtime.)

    Almost anything by Michael Nyman - The Draughtsman's Contract, obviously, but also A Zed and Two Noughts and (my personal favourite) Gattaca. He's the man who first applied the word "minimalism" to contemporary music, which is a pity, because it turns many people off, but his work is exceptional. His string quartets have popped up in a few TV things (also well worth listening to) but on some of his other stuff (The Man in the Suit, for example) I know the score but haven't seen the film.

    So, there's your answer - Michael Nyman.

    Good call

    Draughtsman’s Contract is in my Apple Tunes library, as a standalone song, the ultimate test

    Indeed I remember and treasure the song better than the movie. Can barely recall a thing about the movie, but the main theme tune I still play regularly
    (Mate, it's not a song! It's orchestral throughout.)
    Oh good grief. OK a tune

    I know PB is Neurodivergent Central but EEEEESH
    Sorry about that. One of the reasons I no longer use Apple Tunes (or whatever it's called) is because it insists on calling everything a song - including Mahler's 2nd.
    I’ve heard people claim that the greatest soundtrack of all is Death in Venice, simply due to its entire reliance on the Adagietto from Mahler’s 5th

    https://youtu.be/BUV3Ueobr88?si=2nDJaSxfR_lLYhXC

    And it is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written. But not exactly written for the movie, so we cannot count it
  • On the Braverman thing - what baffles me is the cloth-ear-dness of it all with regard to her natural supporters. As it happens, many of my friends and extended family are church-goers of one denomination or another. All over the country. And almost all of their churches are involved with some sort of poverty relief in the UK. Churches are opened for rough sleepers, food kitchens and night shelters manned, welfare counselling provided to help with benefits claims etc. These people are NOT going to be amused by the jackboot heel going down hard. Even worse, this government minister seems to be indicating that these churches might actually be part of the problem. The floating voters amongst them - and the Conservatives - are going to react rather strongly on Polling Day.

    Its simple. She assumes that the target voters are amoral morons. The right wing has weaponised stupidity and ignorance - they want people to be Outraged by the idea of the homeless being given a tent...
    So it's a high risk strategy, then? Hack off the Core Vote supporters we've had for years in the hope that we will get more from the Outraged Stupid and Ignorant? Electorally, that's a brave strategy.....
  • Leon said:

    Does the Jungle Book count?

    NO!
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,841
    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    isam said:

    MattW said:

    On the header, I wonder if a steady trickle of these types of Councillor defenestrating themselves is a plus for Mr Starmer?

    I’d say so - the slightly right of centre types who Sir Keir is trying to attract aren’t going to be put off voting Labour by a load of Islamic councillors quitting over Palestine
    One of his remaining issues is that there are still 35 MPs listed as being in the Socialist Campaign Group.

    Though it now allows in all MPs, not just Labour MPs - perhaps to protect Mr Corbyn?

    Not sure how many "independents" are in it - I make it Claudia Webbe, Andy McDonald, Jeremy Corbyn so far.
    If Labour gets 350-400 MPs the reality is we know precious little about many of these people.
    I seem to recall all this nonsense being trotted out before 1997. If Blair won, so it went, he would be a prisoner of the radical Left who would win enough seats to prevent "New" Labour governing effectively.

    419 MPs later...the reason why New Labour didn't govern effectively was nothing to do with "the Left".
    To be clear the problem is we don't know what the make up will be. Labour could conceivably have double the number of MPs they have now. Will they largely be Starmer lookalikes? We don't know. What they will have is his manifesto.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    ohnotnow said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    90s music - tomorrow night I'm doing Killing in the Name at our local Punk Rock Karaoke night. Brings the house down every time.

    We do karaoke a lot in our house as the Ukrainians are very fond of all such performing arts tomfoolery. My go to song is Don't Wanna Miss a Thing by Aerosmith. I even do the Steven Tyler fingers.

    My suggestions for other pb.com regulars' karaoke selections...

    Barty Bobs - Rabbit by Chas n Dave
    Leon - Still Hood by Lil Baby & Lil Durk
    HYUFD - Blue (Ba Da Bee) by Eiffel 65
    Malmesbury - Stop Me If You've Think Heard This One Before by the Smiths
    BJO - Please Explain by Burt Bacharach
    Doug Seal - Elizabeth by the Statler Brothers
    I'd be interested to know what your Ukrainian friends make of this :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v7oTFSvpCo

    One of my favourite bits of music. But willing to be told it's kitsch crap...
    I don't think they'd have any opinion on it at all as they are teenagers and therefore like K-Pop. It'd be like asking a British teenager for their views on I've Got a Lovely Bunch of Coconuts.
    Ah.
    It's interesting how cosmopolitan and globalised their tastes are. They like K-Pop, anime, Turkish soaps, Russian films and Strictly.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    M&S advert ‘puts two fingers up to spirit of Christmas’, says headteacher

    Katharine Birbalsingh tells retailer its Christmas ad featuring celebrities’ seasonal peeves will stifle children’s happiness

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/03/ms-advert-puts-two-fingers-up-to-spirit-of-christmas-says-headteacher

    I loved the ad. At last someone takes on the bullshit associated with Christmas, the quasi-obligatory crap that threatens to ruin what could otherwise be a good holiday.
  • M&S advert ‘puts two fingers up to spirit of Christmas’, says headteacher

    Katharine Birbalsingh tells retailer its Christmas ad featuring celebrities’ seasonal peeves will stifle children’s happiness

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/03/ms-advert-puts-two-fingers-up-to-spirit-of-christmas-says-headteacher

    FFS.

    I think it’s a brilliant advert. There is an expectation that people should have a ‘perfect’ Christmas. One in which the house is beautifully decorated, the food is perfectly cooked, friends and family gather for a Festive get together and the hostess has lovingly made the centrepiece for the table.

    Life isn’t like that and it’s ok to say sod it. It’s ok to try your best and to not succeed or even… (whisper it)… fail. It’s ok to say “To hell with ‘Elf on a Shelf’ this year” and to not compete with the neighbours (or other parents from school).

    The important thing is that you tried and that everybody - including you - is happy. That’s the spirit of Christmas.

    You’d think that a teacher would understand that. You’d think that the country’s best headteacher (apparently) would want to instil such values in the children of today. Maybe I’m just old fashioned.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    On the Braverman thing - what baffles me is the cloth-ear-dness of it all with regard to her natural supporters. As it happens, many of my friends and extended family are church-goers of one denomination or another. All over the country. And almost all of their churches are involved with some sort of poverty relief in the UK. Churches are opened for rough sleepers, food kitchens and night shelters manned, welfare counselling provided to help with benefits claims etc. These people are NOT going to be amused by the jackboot heel going down hard. Even worse, this government minister seems to be indicating that these churches might actually be part of the problem. The floating voters amongst them - and the Conservatives - are going to react rather strongly on Polling Day.

    Its simple. She assumes that the target voters are amoral morons. The right wing has weaponised stupidity and ignorance - they want people to be Outraged by the idea of the homeless being given a tent...
    All homeless people should be given the chance of a warm bed to sleep in. If all we can provide is a tent, that's not good enough. If however, if a warm bed has been offered, and refused, there should not be an a la carte system of giving them a tent to camp illegally in a public park, for the reasons Leon gives.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Right, if the conversation is on film scores, then you have left me with no choice but to fire up the laptop and give you some ideas (even though it's past my bedtime.)

    Almost anything by Michael Nyman - The Draughtsman's Contract, obviously, but also A Zed and Two Noughts and (my personal favourite) Gattaca. He's the man who first applied the word "minimalism" to contemporary music, which is a pity, because it turns many people off, but his work is exceptional. His string quartets have popped up in a few TV things (also well worth listening to) but on some of his other stuff (The Man in the Suit, for example) I know the score but haven't seen the film.

    So, there's your answer - Michael Nyman.

    Good call

    Draughtsman’s Contract is in my Apple Tunes library, as a standalone song, the ultimate test

    Indeed I remember and treasure the song better than the movie. Can barely recall a thing about the movie, but the main theme tune I still play regularly
    (Mate, it's not a song! It's orchestral throughout.)
    Oh good grief. OK a tune

    I know PB is Neurodivergent Central but EEEEESH
    Sorry about that. One of the reasons I no longer use Apple Tunes (or whatever it's called) is because it insists on calling everything a song - including Mahler's 2nd.
    I’ve heard people claim that the greatest soundtrack of all is Death in Venice, simply due to its entire reliance on the Adagietto from Mahler’s 5th

    https://youtu.be/BUV3Ueobr88?si=2nDJaSxfR_lLYhXC

    And it is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written. But not exactly written for the movie, so we cannot count it
    Pretty well anything by Carter Burwell does the business for me. A top classical composer, making a living doing film scores.

    e.g. In Bruges

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl6zid3TfXA
  • M&S advert ‘puts two fingers up to spirit of Christmas’, says headteacher

    Katharine Birbalsingh tells retailer its Christmas ad featuring celebrities’ seasonal peeves will stifle children’s happiness

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/03/ms-advert-puts-two-fingers-up-to-spirit-of-christmas-says-headteacher

    FFS.

    I think it’s a brilliant advert. There is an expectation that people should have a ‘perfect’ Christmas. One in which the house is beautifully decorated, the food is perfectly cooked, friends and family gather for a Festive get together and the hostess has lovingly made the centrepiece for the table.

    Life isn’t like that and it’s ok to say sod it. It’s ok to try your best and to not succeed or even… (whisper it)… fail. It’s ok to say “To hell with ‘Elf on a Shelf’ this year” and to not compete with the neighbours (or other parents from school).

    The important thing is that you tried and that everybody - including you - is happy. That’s the spirit of Christmas.

    You’d think that a teacher would understand that. You’d think that the country’s best headteacher (apparently) would want to instil such values in the children of today. Maybe I’m just old fashioned.
    It's pretty edgy given M&S Food adverts seem to be all about having extra special and 'perfect' dinners for two or whatever without going out.
  • M&S advert ‘puts two fingers up to spirit of Christmas’, says headteacher

    Katharine Birbalsingh tells retailer its Christmas ad featuring celebrities’ seasonal peeves will stifle children’s happiness

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/03/ms-advert-puts-two-fingers-up-to-spirit-of-christmas-says-headteacher

    I loved the ad. At last someone takes on the bullshit associated with Christmas, the quasi-obligatory crap that threatens to ruin what could otherwise be a good holiday.
    Surprised they didn't use Greg Lake song though.

    Genius.
  • On the Braverman thing - what baffles me is the cloth-ear-dness of it all with regard to her natural supporters. As it happens, many of my friends and extended family are church-goers of one denomination or another. All over the country. And almost all of their churches are involved with some sort of poverty relief in the UK. Churches are opened for rough sleepers, food kitchens and night shelters manned, welfare counselling provided to help with benefits claims etc. These people are NOT going to be amused by the jackboot heel going down hard. Even worse, this government minister seems to be indicating that these churches might actually be part of the problem. The floating voters amongst them - and the Conservatives - are going to react rather strongly on Polling Day.

    Its simple. She assumes that the target voters are amoral morons. The right wing has weaponised stupidity and ignorance - they want people to be Outraged by the idea of the homeless being given a tent...
    So it's a high risk strategy, then? Hack off the Core Vote supporters we've had for years in the hope that we will get more from the Outraged Stupid and Ignorant? Electorally, that's a brave strategy.....
    Braverman is not interested in the slightest with the party actually winning in 2024. She is already running her leadership campaign for when Sunak loses.

    And has been for months.

    She couldnt give a x about core vs floating vs red wall voters.
  • M&S advert ‘puts two fingers up to spirit of Christmas’, says headteacher

    Katharine Birbalsingh tells retailer its Christmas ad featuring celebrities’ seasonal peeves will stifle children’s happiness

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/03/ms-advert-puts-two-fingers-up-to-spirit-of-christmas-says-headteacher

    FFS.

    I think it’s a brilliant advert. There is an expectation that people should have a ‘perfect’ Christmas. One in which the house is beautifully decorated, the food is perfectly cooked, friends and family gather for a Festive get together and the hostess has lovingly made the centrepiece for the table.

    Life isn’t like that and it’s ok to say sod it. It’s ok to try your best and to not succeed or even… (whisper it)… fail. It’s ok to say “To hell with ‘Elf on a Shelf’ this year” and to not compete with the neighbours (or other parents from school).

    The important thing is that you tried and that everybody - including you - is happy. That’s the spirit of Christmas.

    You’d think that a teacher would understand that. You’d think that the country’s best headteacher (apparently) would want to instil such values in the children of today. Maybe I’m just old fashioned.
    It's pretty edgy given M&S Food adverts seem to be all about having extra special and 'perfect' dinners for two or whatever without going out.
    There are two M&S adverts, the food advert with the Depeche Mode jingle, and the clothing & home advert which is the controversial one.
  • AbandonedHopeAbandonedHope Posts: 144
    edited November 2023

    M&S advert ‘puts two fingers up to spirit of Christmas’, says headteacher

    Katharine Birbalsingh tells retailer its Christmas ad featuring celebrities’ seasonal peeves will stifle children’s happiness

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/03/ms-advert-puts-two-fingers-up-to-spirit-of-christmas-says-headteacher

    FFS.

    I think it’s a brilliant advert. There is an expectation that people should have a ‘perfect’ Christmas. One in which the house is beautifully decorated, the food is perfectly cooked, friends and family gather for a Festive get together and the hostess has lovingly made the centrepiece for the table.

    Life isn’t like that and it’s ok to say sod it. It’s ok to try your best and to not succeed or even… (whisper it)… fail. It’s ok to say “To hell with ‘Elf on a Shelf’ this year” and to not compete with the neighbours (or other parents from school).

    The important thing is that you tried and that everybody - including you - is happy. That’s the spirit of Christmas.

    You’d think that a teacher would understand that. You’d think that the country’s best headteacher (apparently) would want to instil such values in the children of today. Maybe I’m just old fashioned.
    It's pretty edgy given M&S Food adverts seem to be all about having extra special and 'perfect' dinners for two or whatever without going out.
    The M&S Christmas food advert more than makes up for the edgy vibe of the party advert.

    For the record, I won’t have a bad word said about M&S. I do the weekly shop (family of four) there and it’s a lot cheaper than any other supermarket.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    Andy_JS said:

    A film is just starting on BBC called The Nest (2020). On Rotten Tomatoes it has a critics' rating of 90% and an audience rating of 46%. It's always curious when you have such a big divergence between the two types of rating.

    https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_nest_2020

    It is watchable, if slow burning
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    On the Braverman thing - what baffles me is the cloth-ear-dness of it all with regard to her natural supporters. As it happens, many of my friends and extended family are church-goers of one denomination or another. All over the country. And almost all of their churches are involved with some sort of poverty relief in the UK. Churches are opened for rough sleepers, food kitchens and night shelters manned, welfare counselling provided to help with benefits claims etc. These people are NOT going to be amused by the jackboot heel going down hard. Even worse, this government minister seems to be indicating that these churches might actually be part of the problem. The floating voters amongst them - and the Conservatives - are going to react rather strongly on Polling Day.

    Its simple. She assumes that the target voters are amoral morons. The right wing has weaponised stupidity and ignorance - they want people to be Outraged by the idea of the homeless being given a tent...
    So it's a high risk strategy, then? Hack off the Core Vote supporters we've had for years in the hope that we will get more from the Outraged Stupid and Ignorant? Electorally, that's a brave strategy.....
    Braverman is not interested in the slightest with the party actually winning in 2024. She is already running her leadership campaign for when Sunak loses.

    And has been for months.

    She couldnt give a x about core vs floating vs red wall voters.
    She is aiming for Tory members and winning back RefUK voters.

    She didn't do well enough with Tory MPs last time however to get to the membership vote
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    .

    Film Scores?

    Interstellar.

    Oh. My. God.

    Hans Zimmer also did Inception and The Dark Knight trilogy.
    Dunkirk too! Another excellent film score.
    Zimmer was, of course, heavily influenced by Morricone - as were, I think Radiohead. The latter point, surely settles it as far as PB is concerned ?

    His score for The Mission also regularly tops composers’ polls (and is indeed rather beautiful).

    And who can boast a filmic output to compete with one which encompasses Battle of Algiers; 120 Days of Sodom; the Dollars trilogy; Once Upon a Time in the West; Sacco e Vanzetti; The Thing; Days of Heaven; The Untouchables; The Hateful Eight; Cinema Paradiso … and a hundred others ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Tomorrow in the US (today now for us) is the 15th anniversary of Obama’s election.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Film Scores?

    Interstellar.

    Oh. My. God.

    Hans Zimmer also did Inception and The Dark Knight trilogy.
    Dunkirk too! Another excellent film score.
    Zimmer was, of course, heavily influenced by Morricone - as were, I think Radiohead. The latter point, surely settles it as far as PB is concerned ?

    His score for The Mission also regularly tops composers’ polls (and is indeed rather beautiful).

    And who can boast a filmic output to compete with one which encompasses Battle of Algiers; 120 Days of Sodom; the Dollars trilogy; Once Upon a Time in the West; Sacco e Vanzetti; The Thing; Days of Heaven; The Untouchables; The Hateful Eight; Cinema Paradiso … and a hundred others ?
    Morricone and John Williams seem to be the two best. Incredible back catalogues

    The Mission has a couple of timelessly beautiful tunes
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    edited November 2023
    Interesting to speculate what great movie composers line Ennio Morricone or John Williams might have done 100-200 years ago. To my mind they could easily have been world class standalone composers - better than, say, Bruckner - as good as Britten or Grieg or Sibelius

    Just born in slightly the wrong time
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Film Scores?

    Interstellar.

    Oh. My. God.

    Hans Zimmer also did Inception and The Dark Knight trilogy.
    Dunkirk too! Another excellent film score.
    Zimmer was, of course, heavily influenced by Morricone - as were, I think Radiohead. The latter point, surely settles it as far as PB is concerned ?

    His score for The Mission also regularly tops composers’ polls (and is indeed rather beautiful).

    And who can boast a filmic output to compete with one which encompasses Battle of Algiers; 120 Days of Sodom; the Dollars trilogy; Once Upon a Time in the West; Sacco e Vanzetti; The Thing; Days of Heaven; The Untouchables; The Hateful Eight; Cinema Paradiso … and a hundred others ?
    Morricone and John Williams seem to be the two best. Incredible back catalogues

    The Mission has a couple of timelessly beautiful tunes
    Also Chi Mai, which originally a film score, was used by the BBC some years back for their Lloyd George drama, and nearly became a UK chart no1.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Film Scores?

    Interstellar.

    Oh. My. God.

    Hans Zimmer also did Inception and The Dark Knight trilogy.
    Dunkirk too! Another excellent film score.
    Zimmer was, of course, heavily influenced by Morricone - as were, I think Radiohead. The latter point, surely settles it as far as PB is concerned ?

    His score for The Mission also regularly tops composers’ polls (and is indeed rather beautiful).

    And who can boast a filmic output to compete with one which encompasses Battle of Algiers; 120 Days of Sodom; the Dollars trilogy; Once Upon a Time in the West; Sacco e Vanzetti; The Thing; Days of Heaven; The Untouchables; The Hateful Eight; Cinema Paradiso … and a hundred others ?
    Morricone and John Williams seem to be the two best. Incredible back catalogues

    The Mission has a couple of timelessly beautiful tunes
    Also Chi Mai, which originally a film score, was used by the BBC some years back for their Lloyd George drama, and nearly became a UK chart no1.
    And a notably pretty tune
  • Not a film, but the music for the TV adaptation of Brideshead Revisisted was perfect and sublime in its own right.
  • Not a film, but the music for the TV adaptation of Brideshead Revisisted was perfect and sublime in its own right.

    For a film theme, I nominate 633 Squadron.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,671
    edited November 2023
    Point of order: homelessness and rough sleeping are not synonymous.

    The reasons for each are different and there is plenty of research on both, some of which I've contributed to from an economics perspective.

    I would advise the Alpkit Viso 2 as a spacious, affordable home-from-home. (Not ideal for long distance walks though, being bulky over 3kg. Get under a tarp for that 💪)
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668
    edited November 2023
    Eabhal said:

    Point of order: homelessness and rough sleeping are not synonymous.

    The reasons for each are different and there is plenty of research on both, some of which I've contributed to from an economics perspective.

    I would advise the Alpkit Viso 2 as a spacious, affordable home-from-home. (Not ideal for long distance walks though, being bulky over 3kg. Get under a tarp for that 💪)

    I have an Ultra Quasar - maybe 25 years old now - and must have spent over a year in it. Not light, but bombproof - something I've been glad of a few times. Needed a new outer a few years back due to a seagull and general UV degradation but everything else is still good.

    Probably no longer the best but I'd probably buy another if I had to, just because.


    To be fair to Braverman (I'm not convinced about her motive, but anyway) handing out tents is not really a good way to deal with rough sleeping.

    The idea should be to get people off the streets and into hostels or other safe accommodation. Tents are unlikely to be terribly safe and aren't likely to last long in the circumstances.

    I suppose it is better than cardboard but that's about it.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259
    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    dixiedean said:

    I see UNISON have settled. £1925 pa rise for the very lowest paid local government workers.
    Yet more pressure on school budgets.
    And a vast majority of that will be clawed back in tax and withdrawal of UC from teaching assistants.
    So. A pay rise nominally of 9.25%. The workers gain relatively little. Probably nearer 2-4% after tax and benefits. The schools lose a lot, cos they have to find the entire amount.
    But the government loses net relatively little.

    Taking into account the tax and UC. Take into account inflation too, and it may be close to zero.
    Yeah.
    It's a real terms cut.
    Any extra take home is a reduction at 55(!!)p in the pound off UC.
    Talk about marginal tax rates for those on £100k!
    It’s not a real terms pay cut.

    It’s an increase in pay

    The fact that this is largely / totally offset by benefit withdrawal doesn’t alter the fact that it is a pay increase

    Precision matters

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259

    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    If Suella Braverman is Home Secretary on general election day then I will be voting Labour.



    https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1720540465831768527

    But this is absolutely one of the problems in San Francisco
    Genuine question. Are tents and the homeless a genuine thing over here? (I can't say I've ever seen a homeless person with one.) If not, is it the case that Braverman is simply running with stuff she's being fed by these shady hard-Right organizations in the US? (That National Conservatism thingy springs to mind.) Worrying if so.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12291361/Homeless-rebuild-tented-city-Londons-Park-Lane-just-yards-Dorchester-Hotel.html

    Nothing compared with the US, though.
    And 'just yards from the Dorchester Hotel' - how terrible for those people trying to get into the hotel without being upset by the poor.
    Opposite end of park lane - 500 yards and not visible

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Film Scores?

    Interstellar.

    Oh. My. God.

    Hans Zimmer also did Inception and The Dark Knight trilogy.
    Dunkirk too! Another excellent film score.
    Zimmer was, of course, heavily influenced by Morricone - as were, I think Radiohead. The latter point, surely settles it as far as PB is concerned ?

    His score for The Mission also regularly tops composers’ polls (and is indeed rather beautiful).

    And who can boast a filmic output to compete with one which encompasses Battle of Algiers; 120 Days of Sodom; the Dollars trilogy; Once Upon a Time in the West; Sacco e Vanzetti; The Thing; Days of Heaven; The Untouchables; The Hateful Eight; Cinema Paradiso … and a hundred others ?
    Morricone and John Williams seem to be the two best. Incredible back catalogues

    The Mission has a couple of timelessly beautiful tunes
    I'm not a fan of Zimmer. A bit too overblown for me.

    Morricone was both original and brilliant and I'd definitely pick him ahead of the slightly derivative Williams.


    But I'm going to make the bold claim that the best film scores were written before film had even been invented.

    Bring on ... Richard Wagner.

    Yeah, I know, they are "musicals" but not really in the same sense as an actual musical (or an Italian opera).

    If you read the stage directions for the Ring he was definitely imagining a film set but nobody had the technology to deliver what he wanted at the time. If he was alive today he'd definitely be digging out the CGI.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,671
    edited November 2023

    Eabhal said:

    Point of order: homelessness and rough sleeping are not synonymous.

    The reasons for each are different and there is plenty of research on both, some of which I've contributed to from an economics perspective.

    I would advise the Alpkit Viso 2 as a spacious, affordable home-from-home. (Not ideal for long distance walks though, being bulky over 3kg. Get under a tarp for that 💪)

    I have an Ultra Quasar - maybe 25 years old now - and must have spent over a year in it. Not light, but bombproof - something I've been glad of a few times. Needed a new outer a few years back due to a seagull and general UV degradation but everything else is still good.

    Probably no longer the best but I'd probably buy another if I had to, just because.


    To be fair to Braverman (I'm not convinced about her motive, but anyway) handing out tents is not really a good way to deal with rough sleeping.

    The idea should be to get people off the streets and into hostels or other safe accommodation. Tents are unlikely to be terribly safe and aren't likely to last long in the circumstances.

    I suppose it is better than cardboard but that's about it.
    I like Terra Nova because they carry over a lot of their designs to Wild Country, which are the value alternative and great first tents.

    The UK is really good at this kind of specialised equipment - see it in all the shops here in Aus. DMM etc
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,091
    Since I listen to soundtracks constantly for productivity purposes and help me focus you'd think I'd be good at this, but there's just too many. Somebody mentioned Michael Nyman so that's covered, but we have to cover Phillip Glass too, so here's "Mishima" (sample track: "November 25: The Last Day": https://youtu.be/T9rB33JnvyM?t=2378 )

    If you want big bangy bangy let's invade France, here's Jerry Goldsmith's "Capricorn One", sample track "Main Title", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y0kwkHR8OY&t=1s , which also has the triumphal "Celebration" at the end https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y0kwkHR8OY&t=2959s

    If you want amazement at how one guy can get paid for the same soundtrack twice, then compare and contrast James Horner's soundtracks for "Aliens" and "The Wrath of Khan", for example "Genesis Countdown" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKThzGosazk&t=50s to "Going after Newt" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxE8Kb41qWs&t=38s . And then listen to "Bishop's Countdown" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlzkGd7qaMY or "Surprise Attack" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2v62mfdX4

    "They're still running with shields down. Of course! We are one big happy fleet!"

    For your swoopy strings there's John Barry. Now I could do "Out of Africa" or "Somewhere in Time", but dance with the one that brung ya, so here's "Flight into Space" from "Moonraker" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS1ksHh3P88 or "Space March (Capsule In Space)" from "You Only Live Twice" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M0IFdGqovY

    You have to include Hans Zimmer, and I know everybody does "Interstellar" but he goes back way more than that. Here's "Journey to the Line" from "The Thin Red Line": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt9qNNotb8U

    The scene in the film is brilliant, by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbDaYUdDsGg

    I don't really know where to stop. Layer Cake, Moon, Crocodile Dundee II, Requiem for a Dream, Tenet, Iron Man, Tron Legacy, even Saw (sample track "Hello Zepp": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGZyl_O7P2s )

    But of course it had to end with the obvious. Begun, the John Williams apotheosis has: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoWJ7tu9R6w
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,558
    edited November 2023
    With AI in mind, this is a quote from H.P. Lovecraft cited in John Gray's new book "The New Leviathons", (page 134).

    "We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

    https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/447514/the-new-leviathans-by-gray-john/9780241554951
    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/193944-the-most-merciful-thing-in-the-world-i-think-is
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,091
    Andy_JS said:

    With AI in mind, this is a quote from H.P. Lovecraft cited in John Gray's new book "The New Leviathons", (page 134).

    "We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

    https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/447514/the-new-leviathans-by-gray-john/9780241554951
    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/193944-the-most-merciful-thing-in-the-world-i-think-is

    So we've over the past ten years we've gone from the price of pasties to Cthulhu. Vote Nyarlathotep! Sensible Policies for a Happier R'lyeh.

    (as possibly the only fan of John Gray and the Cthulhu mythos in existence I feel uniquely gifted to post this message. Please kill me immediately :) )
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,091
    Dammit I left out Vangelis. OK, not Blade Runner, but the Bounty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLgUOiZUbTk
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    This is an alarming watch.

    An Intimate Conversation with Leading Climate Scientists To Discuss New Research on Global Warming
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NXDWpBlPCY8

    TLDR, without some radical, currently unplanned interventions, we're fucked.
  • M&S advert ‘puts two fingers up to spirit of Christmas’, says headteacher

    Katharine Birbalsingh tells retailer its Christmas ad featuring celebrities’ seasonal peeves will stifle children’s happiness

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/03/ms-advert-puts-two-fingers-up-to-spirit-of-christmas-says-headteacher

    FFS.

    I think it’s a brilliant advert. There is an expectation that people should have a ‘perfect’ Christmas. One in which the house is beautifully decorated, the food is perfectly cooked, friends and family gather for a Festive get together and the hostess has lovingly made the centrepiece for the table.

    Life isn’t like that and it’s ok to say sod it. It’s ok to try your best and to not succeed or even… (whisper it)… fail. It’s ok to say “To hell with ‘Elf on a Shelf’ this year” and to not compete with the neighbours (or other parents from school).

    The important thing is that you tried and that everybody - including you - is happy. That’s the spirit of Christmas.

    You’d think that a teacher would understand that. You’d think that the country’s best headteacher (apparently) would want to instil such values in the children of today. Maybe I’m just old fashioned.
    Leaving aside the advert, is it not disappointing to see the Guardian adopting tabloid traits like reporting people's TwiX posts as news?
  • New thread.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited November 2023

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
    It’s a line from “Thinking of You”

    Sister Sledge

    It really is one of the triumphant moments of pop
    music. Up there with MmmBop and There She Goes

    Pure joy turned into genius guitar and exuberant bass

    And it’s so happy. Pop music used to capture and distill happiness and mainline it into you

    https://youtu.be/9iUE4F9UHok?si=hJ2SlbQ3Rhrx5Syp
    It's by Nile Rodgers and Bernie Edwards, who wrote and produced more utterly great songs than pretty much anyone in pop music, certainly since the Beatles. Although IMHO their masterpiece, also performed with Sister Sledge, is He's the Greatest Dancer. Absolute musical perfection, and one of the greatest songs ever to dance to, appropriately.
    I saw Chic live a few years ago at a festival, and the band did a greatest hits medley of songs Rodgers had written. Quite the list of fantastic pop tracks covering more than four decades. Everyone in the crowd, many of whom had no real idea who they were, was up singing and dancing by the end.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Eabhal said:

    Sunak has apparently looked at the north-west of England and decided that London/Home Counties should replicate it. The levelling down agenda.

    - Cancel public transport infrastructure
    - Plaster with motorways
    - Cover remaining patches with Barratt Homes, artificial grass and XL Bullies

    Were your previous 5001 posts as crazy? It's very reminiscent of tim..late of this parish.
This discussion has been closed.