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Starmer is satisfying Lab councillors except on one topic. – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited November 2023 in General
Starmer is satisfying Lab councillors except on one topic. – politicalbetting.com

?NEW Poll of Labour Cllrs?Just a third of Labour councillors say they’re satisfied with the leadership's position on Israel-Palestine.Position on Israel-PalestineSatisfied 37%Dissatisfied 43%General Election prospectsSatisfied 88%Dissatisfied 4% pic.twitter.com/Z8yXeQOu38

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  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402
    edited November 2023
    Money?

    Edit as per my posts last night WW3 can now start whenever it wants. I have achieved my ambitions.

    Edit, edit. Really? That is what councillors care about as their local services fall apart?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,602
    edited November 2023
    And I will set your border from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the Euphrates, for I will give the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you.
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    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,702
    Starmer
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,817
    I can understand why Palestine is a very salient issue at the moment, but the truth is it's always a salient issue for Labour. Even when there's nothing going on.

    I don't think Keir has good options here, other than ploughing ahead with an approach he thinks best and making sure he is careful with the language he uses. Best thing for the Labour party is for this crisis to die down as quickly as possible and fall out of the news.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,817
    DavidL said:

    Money?

    Edit as per my posts last night WW3 can now start whenever it wants. I have achieved my ambitions.

    Damn. I'm in the caravan at the vineyard. I should perhaps stay here rather than heading back to London?
  • Options
    How the feck have I missed first on both threads today when I published the fecking threads?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    Money?

    Edit as per my posts last night WW3 can now start whenever it wants. I have achieved my ambitions.

    Damn. I'm in the caravan at the vineyard. I should perhaps stay here rather than heading back to London?
    Me getting another first was a necessary but not sufficient step to nuclear oblivion. I think you will be ok.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402

    How the feck have I missed first on both threads today when I published the fecking threads?

    You spend too long with bankers. Their incompetence rubs off.
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,841
    DavidL said:

    Really? That is what councillors care about as their local services fall apart?

    No. This is what they were asked about. There is no indication in this polling that they care about this more or less than any other issue.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.
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    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    Problem for the Palestinians is they have crapped in their nest everywhere theyve been.

    Their standard MO has been to move to Israel's neighbours set up their own private armies, then start to lord it over the locals and kick off a civil war. Nobody really wants that. Then chuck in that they feel the arab world owes them and they wont let them forget it and its nothing but problems.

    On the other hand I was surprised by Chile cutting off relations with Israel. Turns out Chile has one of the largest palestinian populations outside Palestine. Mostly Christians from about a century ago,
    Palestinians are the only people world-wide who have inherited refugee status, even after many decades. Presumably that has something to do with whether the host states want to accept them and the descendants permanently.

    As an aside, that anomaly of inherited status is one of the barriers to a wider settlement.
    There is debate around the contention that the Palestinians are the only people with inherited refugee status. That position has been advanced by pro-Israeli sources. Pro-Palestinian sources point to other non-Palestinian examples. https://www.unhcr.org/us/media/handbook-procedures-and-criteria-determining-refugee-status-under-1951-convention-and-1967 states, “If the head of a family meets the criteria of the definition his dependents are normally granted refugee status according to the principle of family unity.” That supports inherited refugee status applying broadly.

    What is clear is that the scale of inherited refugee status among Palestinians is unlike other examples. Palestinian refugees have been used by Palestinian authorities and by their host countries as pawns, to keep the pressure up on Israel.
    I think the point is that most refugees, if it doesn't become safe for them to return within a few years, integrate into their country of refuge and subsequent generations don't think of themselves as refugees.

    My grandma was a refugee from pre-War Vienna and, while it's an important part of the family history, none of her descendants identify as refugees. We all think of ourselves as British/English, though we might pay a bit more attention when Austria play Hungary in the football. (As an aside, the first Austria vs Hungary matches were before WWI, showing that the setup in Britain of having multiple national teams within one country hasn't always been as anomalous as it now looks)
    I think I'm right in saying that England's first internationals outside the UK were against Austria, Hungary and Bohemia, in a 1908 tour.
  • Options
    Owen Jones
    @OwenJones84
    ·
    1h
    Just try and ban our 11th Nov protest against the mass slaughter of innocent people and what the UN warns is the risk of genocide.

    We'll march in ever greater numbers if you do.


    ((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    39m
    So here we have it. Owen Jones v Rishi Sunak. Who will blink first...
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,097

    Owen Jones
    @OwenJones84
    ·
    1h
    Just try and ban our 11th Nov protest against the mass slaughter of innocent people and what the UN warns is the risk of genocide.

    We'll march in ever greater numbers if you do.


    ((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    39m
    So here we have it. Owen Jones v Rishi Sunak. Who will blink first...

    Aren’t they busy setting up for Remembrance Sunday then?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,143
    What happened to the crack group of elite Blackburn councillors who were going to start a breakaway Muslim Brotherhood party and take Royale down, all the way to Chinatown?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,413

    How the feck have I missed first on both threads today when I published the fecking threads?

    If it's any consolation I've been thinking about our statistical exchange earlier.

    Here's another stat to blow your mind.

    There have only been four non-Conservative majority winners born since 1832.

    Campbell-Bannerman (1836) Attlee (1883) Wilson (1916) and Blair (1953).

    That's obviously leaving aside Lloyd George and Macdonald who won their majorities while leading a mostly Conservative coalition.

    By contrast the Conservatives can boast Bonar Law, Baldwin, Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron and Johnson in the same time frame.

    (As an aside, it's weird to think of Blair as being 70 years old.)
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,011
    FPT

    Special votes in New Zealand have now been counted.

    Total seats 123
    National 48
    Labour 34
    Green 15
    ACT 11
    NZ First 8
    Te Pati Maori 6

    Vacant awaiting by-election 1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_TqcB9cIno

    Looks like Winston Peters will be kingmaker after all.
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    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,437
    ydoethur said:

    (As an aside, it's weird to think of Blair as being 70 years old.)

    I wasn't old enough to vote in the 1997GE, but I'm now two years older than Blair was when he became leader of the Labour Party.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
  • Options
    This weeks average polling



    Slightly down for both Conservatives and Labour with an uptick in Green and Reform.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    The green lobby in particular will be a hard call. They can challenge new development on a range of issues and have legal back up to do it. Net zero, environmental risk assessments, local impact assessments - schools, hospitals infrastructure. All good local government posts which Starmer aims to put to one side.

    I fully agree with the aim but am at touch sceptical he will do what is needed.

    And then theres the other bullet he has to bite which is if he knows where he wants to build new towns will he announce them ? This will of course send big chunks of southern England on the protest marches. Everybody wants more houses built but just not in their area. And if there are houses then the roads and other infrastructure have to be built too.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,307
    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,833
    DavidL said:

    Money?

    Edit as per my posts last night WW3 can now start whenever it wants. I have achieved my ambitions.

    Edit, edit. Really? That is what councillors care about as their local services fall apart?

    Can we leave armageddon until after the football tonight? Quite a big home match against Leeds and I would prefer to leave being vaporised until afterwards.
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    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,555
    “Thinking of You” by Sister Sledge is really without peer, isn’t it?

    That looping yet uplifting bass line. The simple declamatory rhapsodic lyrics. And of course that immaculate sustained beyond-catchy funkabulous rhythm guitar
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,555
    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,830


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    In three or four safe Tory constituencies, I'd guess ?
    Or the new Lib Dem ones if he has a large enough majority.

    Rewrite the planning laws in the first six months.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,900
    ClippP said:

    Starmer

    Stop trolling me
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    edited November 2023
    Nigelb said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    In three or four safe Tory constituencies, I'd guess ?
    Or the new Lib Dem ones if he has a large enough majority.

    Rewrite the planning laws in the first six months.
    He was announcing expansion in the North East at lunchtime.

    But we are back to , if he doesnt have his plans in place now he lose will most of the next terms just getting to contract issuance. Then theres also the small matter of capacity. Its quite a jump to go from 250k houses p.a. to 500k with a construction industry which is hardly dynamic.
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    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    If this is the bar, the courts should be rammed with all incidents over the past couple of weeks.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,830
    edited November 2023
    LoL
    https://twitter.com/SollenbergerRC/status/1720473720123248823

    "I refuse to put people over politics."

    Seriously hard to tell whether that's a mistake or just honest.
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    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
    Starmer is going for a 2 term pitch though so I think he’ll have an aspirational time scale of term 1 actually instituting the reform and term 2 seeing the results. Of far greater challenge in my mind is getting that reform through, and for it to actually work in the way it seems he wants it to. I have my doubts that he can remove the bureaucratic planning framework in the sweep of a pen, but maybe I am being too cynical.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,141

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    If this is the bar, the courts should be rammed with all incidents over the past couple of weeks.
    The Home Secretary will be in the dock for starters.
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    This weeks average polling



    Slightly down for both Conservatives and Labour with an uptick in Green and Reform.

    But the big picture is that Labour is heading for a huge majority.

    Yes, things can change and parties can blow big leads during an election period (never mind the year or so beforehand) but it doesn't happen often and when it does, it tends to be because the public doesn't have a settled view of one or both of the main contenders, which isn't the case now for the Tories though Labour could still potentially blow it (but with a strategy aimed at not upsetting middle Britain, won't if they successfully stick to that).

    Labour has had double-digit leads for well over a year now - something not achieved by any party since Blair's third run in 2002 - and is consistently polling leads at levels Labour *never* achieved, even in outlier polls, between Iraq and Brexit. And those polls are backed up in by-elections at all levels.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,413
    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,413
    Chris said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    If this is the bar, the courts should be rammed with all incidents over the past couple of weeks.
    The Home Secretary will be in the dock for starters.
    Will the dock in question be for small boats?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,830
    edited November 2023

    Nigelb said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    In three or four safe Tory constituencies, I'd guess ?
    Or the new Lib Dem ones if he has a large enough majority.

    Rewrite the planning laws in the first six months.
    He was announcing expansion in the North East at lunchtime.

    But we are back to , if he doesnt have his plans in place now he lose will most of the next terms just getting to contract issuance. Then theres also the small matter of capacity. Its quite a jump to go from 250k houses p.a. to 500k with a construction industry which is hardly dynamic.
    No doubt they are gaming out how to balance the political and practical imperatives, and whatever they end up will be some sort of compromise. Which you'll quite fairly critique.

    But it will be a serious improvement on what we have now, if they just make it the priority, at the beginning of their first Parliament.

    And there's always the second term...

    (If it were me, which it isn't, I'd spend big on infrastructure/R&D in the north, and get selected councils to let rip with enhanced planning powers in the southeast.)
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
    Starmer is going for a 2 term pitch though so I think he’ll have an aspirational time scale of term 1 actually instituting the reform and term 2 seeing the results. Of far greater challenge in my mind is getting that reform through, and for it to actually work in the way it seems he wants it to. I have my doubts that he can remove the bureaucratic planning framework in the sweep of a pen, but maybe I am being too cynical.
    It will certainly take two terms, and it will also take a variety of side issues to be managed in the mix. If we are taking in half a million people a year we will probably 250k of houses each year just to stand still. I would assume he needs to plan more high rise or pre fab housing to get near to his target.

    Like you I think he will need to take the butchers knife to planning and in doing so he will meet some entrenched resistance.
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    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    The green lobby in particular will be a hard call. They can challenge new development on a range of issues and have legal back up to do it. Net zero, environmental risk assessments, local impact assessments - schools, hospitals infrastructure. All good local government posts which Starmer aims to put to one side.

    I fully agree with the aim but am at touch sceptical he will do what is needed.

    And then theres the other bullet he has to bite which is if he knows where he wants to build new towns will he announce them ? This will of course send big chunks of southern England on the protest marches. Everybody wants more houses built but just not in their area. And if there are houses then the roads and other infrastructure have to be built too.
    The British countryside is one of the few things Britain has left of any merit, and Sir Keir wants to bury it all beneath tarmac and ghastly new builds just to give a leg up on the housing ladder to the spawn of people who probably shouldn't be breeding anyway. Gaza, rural England - is there nothing he wouldn't see obliterated on his brutish route march to power? What dastardly and unprincipled fiend. No, he must be destroyed!
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    The green lobby in particular will be a hard call. They can challenge new development on a range of issues and have legal back up to do it. Net zero, environmental risk assessments, local impact assessments - schools, hospitals infrastructure. All good local government posts which Starmer aims to put to one side.

    I fully agree with the aim but am at touch sceptical he will do what is needed.

    And then theres the other bullet he has to bite which is if he knows where he wants to build new towns will he announce them ? This will of course send big chunks of southern England on the protest marches. Everybody wants more houses built but just not in their area. And if there are houses then the roads and other infrastructure have to be built too.
    Give King Charles leave to do Poundbry 2.0 x 10

    The screaming from idiots from Left & Right would be magnificent.
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    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    In three or four safe Tory constituencies, I'd guess ?
    Or the new Lib Dem ones if he has a large enough majority.

    Rewrite the planning laws in the first six months.
    He was announcing expansion in the North East at lunchtime.

    But we are back to , if he doesnt have his plans in place now he lose will most of the next terms just getting to contract issuance. Then theres also the small matter of capacity. Its quite a jump to go from 250k houses p.a. to 500k with a construction industry which is hardly dynamic.
    No doubt they are gaming out how to balance the political and practical imperatives, and whatever they end up will be some sort of compromise. Which you'll quite fairly critique.

    But it will be a serious improvement on what we have now, if they just make it the priority, at the beginning of their first Parliament.

    And there's always the second term...
    As I said Im fully behind the aim. But I suspect he'll back off if he meets much opposition.
  • Options
    Ugh, I might start hating Toto Wolff and Mercedes.

    Come on Red Bull!


  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,830
    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    If this is the bar, the courts should be rammed with all incidents over the past couple of weeks.
    The Home Secretary will be in the dock for starters.
    Will the dock in question be for small boats?
    Prison hulks.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,555
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
    It’s a line from “Thinking of You”

    Sister Sledge

    It really is one of the triumphant moments of pop
    music. Up there with MmmBop and There She Goes

    Pure joy turned into genius guitar and exuberant bass

    And it’s so happy. Pop music used to capture and distill happiness and mainline it into you

    https://youtu.be/9iUE4F9UHok?si=hJ2SlbQ3Rhrx5Syp
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    The green lobby in particular will be a hard call. They can challenge new development on a range of issues and have legal back up to do it. Net zero, environmental risk assessments, local impact assessments - schools, hospitals infrastructure. All good local government posts which Starmer aims to put to one side.

    I fully agree with the aim but am at touch sceptical he will do what is needed.

    And then theres the other bullet he has to bite which is if he knows where he wants to build new towns will he announce them ? This will of course send big chunks of southern England on the protest marches. Everybody wants more houses built but just not in their area. And if there are houses then the roads and other infrastructure have to be built too.
    The British countryside is one of the few things Britain has left of any merit, and Sir Keir wants to bury it all beneath tarmac and ghastly new builds just to give a leg up on the housing ladder to the spawn of people who probably shouldn't be breeding anyway. Gaza, rural England - is there nothing he wouldn't see obliterated on his brutish route march to power? What dastardly and unprincipled fiend. No, he must be destroyed!
    The Greenbelt policy is institutionally racist.

    The younger generations who can’t get on the housing ladder or rent a good property are more diverse. As a result, immigrants have poorer housing.

    So anyone opposing house building is a racist.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,413
    edited November 2023

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,307
    edited November 2023
    Colourfield did a decent track called ‘thinking of you’ 👍

    Not sure it was the same one
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,830

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    In three or four safe Tory constituencies, I'd guess ?
    Or the new Lib Dem ones if he has a large enough majority.

    Rewrite the planning laws in the first six months.
    He was announcing expansion in the North East at lunchtime.

    But we are back to , if he doesnt have his plans in place now he lose will most of the next terms just getting to contract issuance. Then theres also the small matter of capacity. Its quite a jump to go from 250k houses p.a. to 500k with a construction industry which is hardly dynamic.
    No doubt they are gaming out how to balance the political and practical imperatives, and whatever they end up will be some sort of compromise. Which you'll quite fairly critique.

    But it will be a serious improvement on what we have now, if they just make it the priority, at the beginning of their first Parliament.

    And there's always the second term...
    As I said Im fully behind the aim. But I suspect he'll back off if he meets much opposition.
    I'm not a Starmer advocate, so I'm not going to argue the point.
    But it ought not to be impossible for a determined PM with a decent majority.

    The appeal for him is that the greatest demand is in the southeast, where he has the least to lose. It ought not to take a political genius to see that as a golden opportunity to deliver meaningful change.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    I lived in Stone for three years and found it rather enjoyable.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I'm sure that's right, but I expect people also feel hurt when being accused unjustly of taking bribes,
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    I lived in Stone for three years and found it rather enjoyable.
    At one stage I used to want to get back to Canvey Island.

    Those days are long gone though!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,413
    edited November 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    I lived in Stone for three years and found it rather enjoyable.
    If only @SeanT were still around to boast of how many years he spent in Stone.

    Oh, hang on, different context.

    Edit - the problem with living things in Stone is they often end up fossilized. Exhibit A - Bill Cash.
  • Options

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
    Starmer is going for a 2 term pitch though so I think he’ll have an aspirational time scale of term 1 actually instituting the reform and term 2 seeing the results. Of far greater challenge in my mind is getting that reform through, and for it to actually work in the way it seems he wants it to. I have my doubts that he can remove the bureaucratic planning framework in the sweep of a pen, but maybe I am being too cynical.
    Some of the chatter is about using the New Towns Act, which is still on the statue book, which gives governments the sort of powers you might expect from an Attlee era law.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,011
    Taz said:

    Colourfield did a decent track called ‘thinking of you’ 👍

    Not sure it was the same one

    Terry Hall's new band after The Specials IIRC.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    edited November 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    In three or four safe Tory constituencies, I'd guess ?
    Or the new Lib Dem ones if he has a large enough majority.

    Rewrite the planning laws in the first six months.
    He was announcing expansion in the North East at lunchtime.

    But we are back to , if he doesnt have his plans in place now he lose will most of the next terms just getting to contract issuance. Then theres also the small matter of capacity. Its quite a jump to go from 250k houses p.a. to 500k with a construction industry which is hardly dynamic.
    No doubt they are gaming out how to balance the political and practical imperatives, and whatever they end up will be some sort of compromise. Which you'll quite fairly critique.

    But it will be a serious improvement on what we have now, if they just make it the priority, at the beginning of their first Parliament.

    And there's always the second term...
    As I said Im fully behind the aim. But I suspect he'll back off if he meets much opposition.
    I'm not a Starmer advocate, so I'm not going to argue the point.
    But it ought not to be impossible for a determined PM with a decent majority.

    The appeal for him is that the greatest demand is in the southeast, where he has the least to lose. It ought not to take a political genius to see that as a golden opportunity to deliver meaningful change.
    Depends what that change is of course I cant see it being much by way of the productive economy. If he concentrates on the South East he gets whacked twice over. Blue Wall nimbyism while Red Wall say London gets everything. A difficult balancing act.

    Really he should be pushing more growth to the North and trying to regenerate some of our struggling towns. But you cant just build towns willy nilly they need productive output and thats where Im not clear on how his economic policy ( zilch ) is going to help out.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    Perhaps the saddest I’ve come across was a Loyalist I met in an Irish bar in New Orleans. He was homesick for one of shittier parts of Belfast.
  • Options

    On Keir’s big planning speech…

    I find myself agreeing with pretty much all he said (though I find it utterly fascinating to hear a Labour leader decry planning applications being refused because of the environmental impact). It is absolutely true the planning system is too labyrinthine, complex and bureaucratic.

    BUT, and there is a but here:

    Is Starmer ready for the absolute can of worms he’ll open if he tries to enact meaningful reform in this area? Not only will he have the NIMBYs up in arms (and that pressure will be intense) but has anyone had any thought about how removing planning safeguards might actually lead to a Human Rights Act challenge?

    NIMBYs are the ones holding back this country like the NUM were once upon a time.

    Yes it will be a challenge to face them down, but whenever a leader finally does he or she will be one of the all-time greatest Prime Ministers who makes the country a better place for doing so.

    As for removing planning "safeguards" what kinds of human rights violation does that lead to in your eyes? 😕
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    I lived in Stone for three years and found it rather enjoyable.
    If only @SeanT were still around to boast of how many years he spent in Stone.

    Oh, hang on, different context.

    Edit - the problem with living things in Stone is they often end up fossilized. Exhibit A - Bill Cash.
    It was quite good for a day out on Cannock Chase. The German war cemetry was particularly impressive.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,307
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    Many many years ago I used to have good friends in Bridgtown and Heath Hayes. Used to drink at a pub at the top of Longford Road. Worked not far from Bridgtown. I guess it’s different now, the factory I worked as has long since closed.
  • Options

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
    Starmer is going for a 2 term pitch though so I think he’ll have an aspirational time scale of term 1 actually instituting the reform and term 2 seeing the results. Of far greater challenge in my mind is getting that reform through, and for it to actually work in the way it seems he wants it to. I have my doubts that he can remove the bureaucratic planning framework in the sweep of a pen, but maybe I am being too cynical.
    Some of the chatter is about using the New Towns Act, which is still on the statue book, which gives governments the sort of powers you might expect from an Attlee era law.
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/64

    Thatcher consolidated the New Towns Acts in 1981 - so blame her!
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,307
    edited November 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Colourfield did a decent track called ‘thinking of you’ 👍

    Not sure it was the same one

    Terry Hall's new band after The Specials IIRC.
    Deffo Terry Hall.

    Not sure of the chronology and where fun boy three fitted into it.
  • Options

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
    Starmer is going for a 2 term pitch though so I think he’ll have an aspirational time scale of term 1 actually instituting the reform and term 2 seeing the results. Of far greater challenge in my mind is getting that reform through, and for it to actually work in the way it seems he wants it to. I have my doubts that he can remove the bureaucratic planning framework in the sweep of a pen, but maybe I am being too cynical.
    Some of the chatter is about using the New Towns Act, which is still on the statue book, which gives governments the sort of powers you might expect from an Attlee era law.
    The problem here is that the original post-war new towns were built with a significant industrial base. Back in the day, my own home town of Crawley had dozens upon dozens of light-engineering firms in its Manor Royal industrial estate - many of them global leaders. But now we don't have any engineering left, so what are the inhabitants of these towns supposed to do except claim dole and smoke dope all day? Sir Keir is literally planning to build hellish ghettos devoid of all hope and meaning. This could amount to the greatest act of wickedness ever inflicted upon the British race.
  • Options

    And I will set your border from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the Euphrates, for I will give the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you.

    From the Roding to the Lea, Ilford will be free!
  • Options
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
    It’s a line from “Thinking of You”

    Sister Sledge

    It really is one of the triumphant moments of pop
    music. Up there with MmmBop and There She Goes

    Pure joy turned into genius guitar and exuberant bass

    And it’s so happy. Pop music used to capture and distill happiness and mainline it into you

    https://youtu.be/9iUE4F9UHok?si=hJ2SlbQ3Rhrx5Syp
    It's by Nile Rodgers and Bernie Edwards, who wrote and produced more utterly great songs than pretty much anyone in pop music, certainly since the Beatles. Although IMHO their masterpiece, also performed with Sister Sledge, is He's the Greatest Dancer. Absolute musical perfection, and one of the greatest songs ever to dance to, appropriately.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,072


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    The green lobby in particular will be a hard call. They can challenge new development on a range of issues and have legal back up to do it. Net zero, environmental risk assessments, local impact assessments - schools, hospitals infrastructure. All good local government posts which Starmer aims to put to one side.

    I fully agree with the aim but am at touch sceptical he will do what is needed.

    And then theres the other bullet he has to bite which is if he knows where he wants to build new towns will he announce them ? This will of course send big chunks of southern England on the protest marches. Everybody wants more houses built but just not in their area. And if there are houses then the roads and other infrastructure have to be built too.
    The British countryside is one of the few things Britain has left of any merit, and Sir Keir wants to bury it all beneath tarmac and ghastly new builds just to give a leg up on the housing ladder to the spawn of people who probably shouldn't be breeding anyway. Gaza, rural England - is there nothing he wouldn't see obliterated on his brutish route march to power? What dastardly and unprincipled fiend. No, he must be destroyed!
    Hey - what about the English Cricket team?
  • Options

    What happened to the crack group of elite Blackburn councillors who were going to start a breakaway Muslim Brotherhood party and take Royale down, all the way to Chinatown?

    Royale??
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
    Starmer is going for a 2 term pitch though so I think he’ll have an aspirational time scale of term 1 actually instituting the reform and term 2 seeing the results. Of far greater challenge in my mind is getting that reform through, and for it to actually work in the way it seems he wants it to. I have my doubts that he can remove the bureaucratic planning framework in the sweep of a pen, but maybe I am being too cynical.
    Some of the chatter is about using the New Towns Act, which is still on the statue book, which gives governments the sort of powers you might expect from an Attlee era law.
    The problem here is that the original post-war new towns were built with a significant industrial base. Back in the day, my own home town of Crawley had dozens upon dozens of light-engineering firms in its Manor Royal industrial estate - many of them global leaders. But now we don't have any engineering left, so what are the inhabitants of these towns supposed to do except claim dole and smoke dope all day? Sir Keir is literally planning to build hellish ghettos devoid of all hope and meaning. This could amount to the greatest act of wickedness ever inflicted upon the British race.
    That’s not true - there’s tons of industrial manufacturing in this country. Top 10 on the whole planet.

    Just because it isn’t half naked men pouring steel with no H&S doesn’t mean it’s not industrial.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,361

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    I lived in Stone for three years and found it rather enjoyable.
    At one stage I used to want to get back to Canvey Island.

    Those days are long gone though!
    My roots - and indeed the roots of my roots - are sunk deep in the coalfields of South Yorkshire. I feel not the slightest pull, which is rational because it's a bit grim, but just occasionally I feel sad about this because I haven't replaced it with any alternative sense of belonging anywhere else.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,005
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
    It’s a line from “Thinking of You”

    Sister Sledge

    It really is one of the triumphant moments of pop
    music. Up there with MmmBop and There She Goes

    Pure joy turned into genius guitar and exuberant bass

    And it’s so happy. Pop music used to capture and distill happiness and mainline it into you

    https://youtu.be/9iUE4F9UHok?si=hJ2SlbQ3Rhrx5Syp
    I had a take about a decade ago that one of the big differences between pop music now and that of the 60s-80s was the lack of vulnerability shown/sadness that a relationship ended. Don’t know if that’s actually proven by the stats. I am so out of the loop now I wouldn’t know, but it seems to me that music is now more boastful and tough than it once was
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    I lived in Stone for three years and found it rather enjoyable.
    At one stage I used to want to get back to Canvey Island.

    Those days are long gone though!
    My roots - and indeed the roots of my roots - are sunk deep in the coalfields of South Yorkshire. I feel not the slightest pull, which is rational because it's a bit grim, but just occasionally I feel sad about this because I haven't replaced it with any alternative sense of belonging anywhere else.
    move to the countryside and get a sense of place
  • Options

    On Keir’s big planning speech…

    I find myself agreeing with pretty much all he said (though I find it utterly fascinating to hear a Labour leader decry planning applications being refused because of the environmental impact). It is absolutely true the planning system is too labyrinthine, complex and bureaucratic.

    BUT, and there is a but here:

    Is Starmer ready for the absolute can of worms he’ll open if he tries to enact meaningful reform in this area? Not only will he have the NIMBYs up in arms (and that pressure will be intense) but has anyone had any thought about how removing planning safeguards might actually lead to a Human Rights Act challenge?

    NIMBYs are the ones holding back this country like the NUM were once upon a time.

    Yes it will be a challenge to face them down, but whenever a leader finally does he or she will be one of the all-time greatest Prime Ministers who makes the country a better place for doing so.

    As for removing planning "safeguards" what kinds of human rights violation does that lead to in your eyes? 😕
    It doesn’t in my eyes. I just am prepared for the argument to be run.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,361

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    In three or four safe Tory constituencies, I'd guess ?
    Or the new Lib Dem ones if he has a large enough majority.

    Rewrite the planning laws in the first six months.
    He was announcing expansion in the North East at lunchtime.

    But we are back to , if he doesnt have his plans in place now he lose will most of the next terms just getting to contract issuance. Then theres also the small matter of capacity. Its quite a jump to go from 250k houses p.a. to 500k with a construction industry which is hardly dynamic.
    No doubt they are gaming out how to balance the political and practical imperatives, and whatever they end up will be some sort of compromise. Which you'll quite fairly critique.

    But it will be a serious improvement on what we have now, if they just make it the priority, at the beginning of their first Parliament.

    And there's always the second term...
    As I said Im fully behind the aim. But I suspect he'll back off if he meets much opposition.
    As I've said to you before, I think you're underestimating him.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    In three or four safe Tory constituencies, I'd guess ?
    Or the new Lib Dem ones if he has a large enough majority.

    Rewrite the planning laws in the first six months.
    He was announcing expansion in the North East at lunchtime.

    But we are back to , if he doesnt have his plans in place now he lose will most of the next terms just getting to contract issuance. Then theres also the small matter of capacity. Its quite a jump to go from 250k houses p.a. to 500k with a construction industry which is hardly dynamic.
    No doubt they are gaming out how to balance the political and practical imperatives, and whatever they end up will be some sort of compromise. Which you'll quite fairly critique.

    But it will be a serious improvement on what we have now, if they just make it the priority, at the beginning of their first Parliament.

    And there's always the second term...
    As I said Im fully behind the aim. But I suspect he'll back off if he meets much opposition.
    As I've said to you before, I think you're underestimating him.
    Only time will tell and I cant see either of us shifting our position.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,413
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    Many many years ago I used to have good friends in Bridgtown and Heath Hayes. Used to drink at a pub at the top of Longford Road. Worked not far from Bridgtown. I guess it’s different now, the factory I worked as has long since closed.

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
    Starmer is going for a 2 term pitch though so I think he’ll have an aspirational time scale of term 1 actually instituting the reform and term 2 seeing the results. Of far greater challenge in my mind is getting that reform through, and for it to actually work in the way it seems he wants it to. I have my doubts that he can remove the bureaucratic planning framework in the sweep of a pen, but maybe I am being too cynical.
    Some of the chatter is about using the New Towns Act, which is still on the statue book, which gives governments the sort of powers you might expect from an Attlee era law.
    The problem here is that the original post-war new towns were built with a significant industrial base. Back in the day, my own home town of Crawley had dozens upon dozens of light-engineering firms in its Manor Royal industrial estate - many of them global leaders. But now we don't have any engineering left, so what are the inhabitants of these towns supposed to do except claim dole and smoke dope all day? Sir Keir is literally planning to build hellish ghettos devoid of all hope and meaning. This could amount to the greatest act of wickedness ever inflicted upon the British race.
    That’s not true - there’s tons of industrial manufacturing in this country. Top 10 on the whole planet.

    Just because it isn’t half naked men pouring steel with no H&S doesn’t mean it’s not industrial.
    I juxtaposed these comments because I was just thinking how much Cannock still relies on industry. Of my friends of working age, one works in a chemicals plant in Bridgtown, one works in a car door factory in Lichfield, several work for JLR and one for JCB (God help him).

    It's just not quite the same sort of industry. Cannock Chemicals must be one of the largest chemical/industrial engineering concerns in the country but it occupies a tiny site and employs about thirty people.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,413
    rcs1000 said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    The green lobby in particular will be a hard call. They can challenge new development on a range of issues and have legal back up to do it. Net zero, environmental risk assessments, local impact assessments - schools, hospitals infrastructure. All good local government posts which Starmer aims to put to one side.

    I fully agree with the aim but am at touch sceptical he will do what is needed.

    And then theres the other bullet he has to bite which is if he knows where he wants to build new towns will he announce them ? This will of course send big chunks of southern England on the protest marches. Everybody wants more houses built but just not in their area. And if there are houses then the roads and other infrastructure have to be built too.
    The British countryside is one of the few things Britain has left of any merit, and Sir Keir wants to bury it all beneath tarmac and ghastly new builds just to give a leg up on the housing ladder to the spawn of people who probably shouldn't be breeding anyway. Gaza, rural England - is there nothing he wouldn't see obliterated on his brutish route march to power? What dastardly and unprincipled fiend. No, he must be destroyed!
    Hey - what about the English Cricket team?
    That remark is balls, indeed completely batty.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,458

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    I lived in Stone for three years and found it rather enjoyable.
    If only @SeanT were still around to boast of how many years he spent in Stone.

    Oh, hang on, different context.

    Edit - the problem with living things in Stone is they often end up fossilized. Exhibit A - Bill Cash.
    It was quite good for a day out on Cannock Chase. The German war cemetry was particularly impressive.
    Fallow deer and nightjars on Cannock Chase. Not just buried Germans.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    I lived in Stone for three years and found it rather enjoyable.
    At one stage I used to want to get back to Canvey Island.

    Those days are long gone though!
    My roots - and indeed the roots of my roots - are sunk deep in the coalfields of South Yorkshire. I feel not the slightest pull, which is rational because it's a bit grim, but just occasionally I feel sad about this because I haven't replaced it with any alternative sense of belonging anywhere else.
    I don't feel massively attached to anywhere but I feel quite attached to lots of places, and that's enough for me.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,555

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
    It’s a line from “Thinking of You”

    Sister Sledge

    It really is one of the triumphant moments of pop
    music. Up there with MmmBop and There She Goes

    Pure joy turned into genius guitar and exuberant bass

    And it’s so happy. Pop music used to capture and distill happiness and mainline it into you

    https://youtu.be/9iUE4F9UHok?si=hJ2SlbQ3Rhrx5Syp
    It's by Nile Rodgers and Bernie Edwards, who wrote and produced more utterly great songs than pretty much anyone in pop music, certainly since the Beatles. Although IMHO their masterpiece, also performed with Sister Sledge, is He's the Greatest Dancer. Absolute musical perfection, and one of the greatest songs ever to dance to, appropriately.
    Yes. Rodgers and Edwards. Up there with Lennon McCartney, Plant/Page, the Glimmer Twins, Rodgers/Hammerstein

    And in terms of dance/disco probably peerless
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    Many many years ago I used to have good friends in Bridgtown and Heath Hayes. Used to drink at a pub at the top of Longford Road. Worked not far from Bridgtown. I guess it’s different now, the factory I worked as has long since closed.

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
    Starmer is going for a 2 term pitch though so I think he’ll have an aspirational time scale of term 1 actually instituting the reform and term 2 seeing the results. Of far greater challenge in my mind is getting that reform through, and for it to actually work in the way it seems he wants it to. I have my doubts that he can remove the bureaucratic planning framework in the sweep of a pen, but maybe I am being too cynical.
    Some of the chatter is about using the New Towns Act, which is still on the statue book, which gives governments the sort of powers you might expect from an Attlee era law.
    The problem here is that the original post-war new towns were built with a significant industrial base. Back in the day, my own home town of Crawley had dozens upon dozens of light-engineering firms in its Manor Royal industrial estate - many of them global leaders. But now we don't have any engineering left, so what are the inhabitants of these towns supposed to do except claim dole and smoke dope all day? Sir Keir is literally planning to build hellish ghettos devoid of all hope and meaning. This could amount to the greatest act of wickedness ever inflicted upon the British race.
    That’s not true - there’s tons of industrial manufacturing in this country. Top 10 on the whole planet.

    Just because it isn’t half naked men pouring steel with no H&S doesn’t mean it’s not industrial.
    I juxtaposed these comments because I was just thinking how much Cannock still relies on industry. Of my friends of working age, one works in a chemicals plant in Bridgtown, one works in a car door factory in Lichfield, several work for JLR and one for JCB (God help him).

    It's just not quite the same sort of industry. Cannock Chemicals must be one of the largest chemical/industrial engineering concerns in the country but it occupies a tiny site and employs about thirty people.
    Have you lost the Thyssen pressing plant ? Didnt seem to be doing much when I drove past last month,
  • Options
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
    It’s a line from “Thinking of You”

    Sister Sledge

    It really is one of the triumphant moments of pop
    music. Up there with MmmBop and There She Goes

    Pure joy turned into genius guitar and exuberant bass

    And it’s so happy. Pop music used to capture and distill happiness and mainline it into you

    https://youtu.be/9iUE4F9UHok?si=hJ2SlbQ3Rhrx5Syp
    I had a take about a decade ago that one of the big differences between pop music now and that of the 60s-80s was the lack of vulnerability shown/sadness that a relationship ended. Don’t know if that’s actually proven by the stats. I am so out of the loop now I wouldn’t know, but it seems to me that music is now more boastful and tough than it once was
    Adele has built an entire musical career out of breakup songs.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    Many many years ago I used to have good friends in Bridgtown and Heath Hayes. Used to drink at a pub at the top of Longford Road. Worked not far from Bridgtown. I guess it’s different now, the factory I worked as has long since closed.

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
    Starmer is going for a 2 term pitch though so I think he’ll have an aspirational time scale of term 1 actually instituting the reform and term 2 seeing the results. Of far greater challenge in my mind is getting that reform through, and for it to actually work in the way it seems he wants it to. I have my doubts that he can remove the bureaucratic planning framework in the sweep of a pen, but maybe I am being too cynical.
    Some of the chatter is about using the New Towns Act, which is still on the statue book, which gives governments the sort of powers you might expect from an Attlee era law.
    The problem here is that the original post-war new towns were built with a significant industrial base. Back in the day, my own home town of Crawley had dozens upon dozens of light-engineering firms in its Manor Royal industrial estate - many of them global leaders. But now we don't have any engineering left, so what are the inhabitants of these towns supposed to do except claim dole and smoke dope all day? Sir Keir is literally planning to build hellish ghettos devoid of all hope and meaning. This could amount to the greatest act of wickedness ever inflicted upon the British race.
    That’s not true - there’s tons of industrial manufacturing in this country. Top 10 on the whole planet.

    Just because it isn’t half naked men pouring steel with no H&S doesn’t mean it’s not industrial.
    I juxtaposed these comments because I was just thinking how much Cannock still relies on industry. Of my friends of working age, one works in a chemicals plant in Bridgtown, one works in a car door factory in Lichfield, several work for JLR and one for JCB (God help him).

    It's just not quite the same sort of industry. Cannock Chemicals must be one of the largest chemical/industrial engineering concerns in the country but it occupies a tiny site and employs about thirty people.
    Yup, it tends to be smaller stuff these days - bespoke work and higher unit value, a lot of it.

    The myth of The End Of British Industry is quite harmful. I’ve encountered MPs who believe that there was no British Industry left. Which must make balancing policies interesting.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,028
    FPT
    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    The question isn't what Hamas gains it's what their paymaster (Iran) gains and that is that the relationship between Israel and Saudi Arabia / other Arab states is no longer as rosy as it was on October 6th...


  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    eek said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    The question isn't what Hamas gains it's what their paymaster (Iran) gains and that is that the relationship between Israel and Saudi Arabia / other Arab states is no longer as rosy as it was on October 6th...


    Possibly a panicked reaction to the possibility of peace breaking out at a serious level between Israel and many of the neighbouring states?

    #SumOfAllTheFears…
  • Options

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    In three or four safe Tory constituencies, I'd guess ?
    Or the new Lib Dem ones if he has a large enough majority.

    Rewrite the planning laws in the first six months.
    He was announcing expansion in the North East at lunchtime.

    But we are back to , if he doesnt have his plans in place now he lose will most of the next terms just getting to contract issuance. Then theres also the small matter of capacity. Its quite a jump to go from 250k houses p.a. to 500k with a construction industry which is hardly dynamic.
    No doubt they are gaming out how to balance the political and practical imperatives, and whatever they end up will be some sort of compromise. Which you'll quite fairly critique.

    But it will be a serious improvement on what we have now, if they just make it the priority, at the beginning of their first Parliament.

    And there's always the second term...
    As I said Im fully behind the aim. But I suspect he'll back off if he meets much opposition.
    I'm not a Starmer advocate, so I'm not going to argue the point.
    But it ought not to be impossible for a determined PM with a decent majority.

    The appeal for him is that the greatest demand is in the southeast, where he has the least to lose. It ought not to take a political genius to see that as a golden opportunity to deliver meaningful change.
    Depends what that change is of course I cant see it being much by way of the productive economy. If he concentrates on the South East he gets whacked twice over. Blue Wall nimbyism while Red Wall say London gets everything. A difficult balancing act.

    Really he should be pushing more growth to the North and trying to regenerate some of our struggling towns. But you cant just build towns willy nilly they need productive output and thats where Im not clear on how his economic policy ( zilch ) is going to help out.
    There are currently plans to convert many thousands of hectares of land in Lincolnshire into solar parks. I would have thought, if the land is being taken out of agricultural usage anyway, then it would be far better to build houses on all that same land and then stick solar panels on all the roofs. Build some new towns rather than messing around with little bits here and there.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    The green lobby in particular will be a hard call. They can challenge new development on a range of issues and have legal back up to do it. Net zero, environmental risk assessments, local impact assessments - schools, hospitals infrastructure. All good local government posts which Starmer aims to put to one side.

    I fully agree with the aim but am at touch sceptical he will do what is needed.

    And then theres the other bullet he has to bite which is if he knows where he wants to build new towns will he announce them ? This will of course send big chunks of southern England on the protest marches. Everybody wants more houses built but just not in their area. And if there are houses then the roads and other infrastructure have to be built too.
    The British countryside is one of the few things Britain has left of any merit, and Sir Keir wants to bury it all beneath tarmac and ghastly new builds just to give a leg up on the housing ladder to the spawn of people who probably shouldn't be breeding anyway. Gaza, rural England - is there nothing he wouldn't see obliterated on his brutish route march to power? What dastardly and unprincipled fiend. No, he must be destroyed!
    Hey - what about the English Cricket team?
    That remark is balls, indeed completely batty.
    That remark is a bit silly (mid off)
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,361


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    The green lobby in particular will be a hard call. They can challenge new development on a range of issues and have legal back up to do it. Net zero, environmental risk assessments, local impact assessments - schools, hospitals infrastructure. All good local government posts which Starmer aims to put to one side.

    I fully agree with the aim but am at touch sceptical he will do what is needed.

    And then theres the other bullet he has to bite which is if he knows where he wants to build new towns will he announce them ? This will of course send big chunks of southern England on the protest marches. Everybody wants more houses built but just not in their area. And if there are houses then the roads and other infrastructure have to be built too.
    The British countryside is one of the few things Britain has left of any merit, and Sir Keir wants to bury it all beneath tarmac and ghastly new builds just to give a leg up on the housing ladder to the spawn of people who probably shouldn't be breeding anyway. Gaza, rural England - is there nothing he wouldn't see obliterated on his brutish route march to power? What dastardly and unprincipled fiend. No, he must be destroyed!
    The Greenbelt policy is institutionally racist.

    The younger generations who can’t get on the housing ladder or rent a good property are more diverse. As a result, immigrants have poorer housing.

    So anyone opposing house building is a racist.
    Your output often has a sort of 'ambushing the new woke young boyfriend your daughter has brought round for dinner' vibe to it.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,005
    edited November 2023

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
    It’s a line from “Thinking of You”

    Sister Sledge

    It really is one of the triumphant moments of pop
    music. Up there with MmmBop and There She Goes

    Pure joy turned into genius guitar and exuberant bass

    And it’s so happy. Pop music used to capture and distill happiness and mainline it into you

    https://youtu.be/9iUE4F9UHok?si=hJ2SlbQ3Rhrx5Syp
    I had a take about a decade ago that one of the big differences between pop music now and that of the 60s-80s was the lack of vulnerability shown/sadness that a relationship ended. Don’t know if that’s actually proven by the stats. I am so out of the loop now I wouldn’t know, but it seems to me that music is now more boastful and tough than it once was
    Adele has built an entire musical career out of breakup songs.
    Seven singles released in the last decade though. Is she atypical or are there many others doing this?

    And my take was that the old breakup songs were sad at the breakup - there still are break up songs, but I’d say they seem to be vengeful rather than showing a sense of sadness
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    The green lobby in particular will be a hard call. They can challenge new development on a range of issues and have legal back up to do it. Net zero, environmental risk assessments, local impact assessments - schools, hospitals infrastructure. All good local government posts which Starmer aims to put to one side.

    I fully agree with the aim but am at touch sceptical he will do what is needed.

    And then theres the other bullet he has to bite which is if he knows where he wants to build new towns will he announce them ? This will of course send big chunks of southern England on the protest marches. Everybody wants more houses built but just not in their area. And if there are houses then the roads and other infrastructure have to be built too.
    The British countryside is one of the few things Britain has left of any merit, and Sir Keir wants to bury it all beneath tarmac and ghastly new builds just to give a leg up on the housing ladder to the spawn of people who probably shouldn't be breeding anyway. Gaza, rural England - is there nothing he wouldn't see obliterated on his brutish route march to power? What dastardly and unprincipled fiend. No, he must be destroyed!
    Hey - what about the English Cricket team?
    That remark is balls, indeed completely batty.
    That remark is a bit silly (mid off)
    It belongs in the gulley
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    Many many years ago I used to have good friends in Bridgtown and Heath Hayes. Used to drink at a pub at the top of Longford Road. Worked not far from Bridgtown. I guess it’s different now, the factory I worked as has long since closed.

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    Which natural supporters are you thinking of?

    The Nimbies most likely to be annoyed by Starmertowns are homeowners in green belts around cities, and they're one of the demographics currently sticking with the Conservatives.

    It'll be messy, sure, but Labour have a far better chance of making this happen than the Conservatives.
    A lot of these people have been voting against the Conservative in local elections, but this will probably drive them back, after Labour have won the next election.
    Won’t matter. Labour will have five years. They should build build build in the south east and Home Counties where there is more demand for Homes. Few votes will be lost as it is not, largely, natural labour territory anyway.
    If they cannot name where they are going to build now then the 5 years will be largely spent on planning, design and contract placement. Not much will be built imo.
    Starmer is going for a 2 term pitch though so I think he’ll have an aspirational time scale of term 1 actually instituting the reform and term 2 seeing the results. Of far greater challenge in my mind is getting that reform through, and for it to actually work in the way it seems he wants it to. I have my doubts that he can remove the bureaucratic planning framework in the sweep of a pen, but maybe I am being too cynical.
    Some of the chatter is about using the New Towns Act, which is still on the statue book, which gives governments the sort of powers you might expect from an Attlee era law.
    The problem here is that the original post-war new towns were built with a significant industrial base. Back in the day, my own home town of Crawley had dozens upon dozens of light-engineering firms in its Manor Royal industrial estate - many of them global leaders. But now we don't have any engineering left, so what are the inhabitants of these towns supposed to do except claim dole and smoke dope all day? Sir Keir is literally planning to build hellish ghettos devoid of all hope and meaning. This could amount to the greatest act of wickedness ever inflicted upon the British race.
    That’s not true - there’s tons of industrial manufacturing in this country. Top 10 on the whole planet.

    Just because it isn’t half naked men pouring steel with no H&S doesn’t mean it’s not industrial.
    I juxtaposed these comments because I was just thinking how much Cannock still relies on industry. Of my friends of working age, one works in a chemicals plant in Bridgtown, one works in a car door factory in Lichfield, several work for JLR and one for JCB (God help him).

    It's just not quite the same sort of industry. Cannock Chemicals must be one of the largest chemical/industrial engineering concerns in the country but it occupies a tiny site and employs about thirty people.
    Yup, it tends to be smaller stuff these days - bespoke work and higher unit value, a lot of it.

    The myth of The End Of British Industry is quite harmful. I’ve encountered MPs who believe that there was no British Industry left. Which must make balancing policies interesting.
    It was repeated on here just yesterday when Josiah Jessop was claiming that manufacturing was abandoning the UK after Brexit. Of course this is rubbish given that manufacturing is increasing, that reshoring is massive at the moment with many firms bringing manufacturing back into the UK from the far east and from Europe and that we just overtook France to become the 8th largest manfacturing country in the woirld.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,555
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
    It’s a line from “Thinking of You”

    Sister Sledge

    It really is one of the triumphant moments of pop
    music. Up there with MmmBop and There She Goes

    Pure joy turned into genius guitar and exuberant bass

    And it’s so happy. Pop music used to capture and distill happiness and mainline it into you

    https://youtu.be/9iUE4F9UHok?si=hJ2SlbQ3Rhrx5Syp
    I had a take about a decade ago that one of the big differences between pop music now and that of the 60s-80s was the lack of vulnerability shown/sadness that a relationship ended. Don’t know if that’s actually proven by the stats. I am so out of the loop now I wouldn’t know, but it seems to me that music is now more boastful and tough than it once was
    Something in that, however “Thinking of You” is about the sheer unadulterated joy of being in love: the pristine happiness. And, magically, the music captures that and shares it with the listener

    Sublime. As good as any single piece of classical music to my mind - and I love classical music
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,458
    eek said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    The question isn't what Hamas gains it's what their paymaster (Iran) gains and that is that the relationship between Israel and Saudi Arabia / other Arab states is no longer as rosy as it was on October 6th...


    I wonder if there is any possibility that the Gazans will consider themselves played? Maybe not the leadership safely esconced in Qatar or wherever.

    Gazans are Sunni Arabs. Iranians are Shia Persians. The latter don't necessarily have the welfare of the former at the top of their priority list.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    edited November 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:


    FPT re Starmers plans

    My thoughts exactly. Is Starmer ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.

    In three or four safe Tory constituencies, I'd guess ?
    Or the new Lib Dem ones if he has a large enough majority.

    Rewrite the planning laws in the first six months.
    He was announcing expansion in the North East at lunchtime.

    But we are back to , if he doesnt have his plans in place now he lose will most of the next terms just getting to contract issuance. Then theres also the small matter of capacity. Its quite a jump to go from 250k houses p.a. to 500k with a construction industry which is hardly dynamic.
    No doubt they are gaming out how to balance the political and practical imperatives, and whatever they end up will be some sort of compromise. Which you'll quite fairly critique.

    But it will be a serious improvement on what we have now, if they just make it the priority, at the beginning of their first Parliament.

    And there's always the second term...
    As I said Im fully behind the aim. But I suspect he'll back off if he meets much opposition.
    I'm not a Starmer advocate, so I'm not going to argue the point.
    But it ought not to be impossible for a determined PM with a decent majority.

    The appeal for him is that the greatest demand is in the southeast, where he has the least to lose. It ought not to take a political genius to see that as a golden opportunity to deliver meaningful change.
    Depends what that change is of course I cant see it being much by way of the productive economy. If he concentrates on the South East he gets whacked twice over. Blue Wall nimbyism while Red Wall say London gets everything. A difficult balancing act.

    Really he should be pushing more growth to the North and trying to regenerate some of our struggling towns. But you cant just build towns willy nilly they need productive output and thats where Im not clear on how his economic policy ( zilch ) is going to help out.
    There are currently plans to convert many thousands of hectares of land in Lincolnshire into solar parks. I would have thought, if the land is being taken out of agricultural usage anyway, then it would be far better to build houses on all that same land and then stick solar panels on all the roofs. Build some new towns rather than messing around with little bits here and there.
    Yes I agree, but do the planning laws also get relaxed outside the new towns ? I live in a village with a population of 800. I would quite happily see it double in size over time if it was done sensibly ( ie not graft an executive mega estate on the side ). The village needs people if it is to keep its basic amenities going and preferably get some of them back.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,005
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
    It’s a line from “Thinking of You”

    Sister Sledge

    It really is one of the triumphant moments of pop
    music. Up there with MmmBop and There She Goes

    Pure joy turned into genius guitar and exuberant bass

    And it’s so happy. Pop music used to capture and distill happiness and mainline it into you

    https://youtu.be/9iUE4F9UHok?si=hJ2SlbQ3Rhrx5Syp
    I had a take about a decade ago that one of the big differences between pop music now and that of the 60s-80s was the lack of vulnerability shown/sadness that a relationship ended. Don’t know if that’s actually proven by the stats. I am so out of the loop now I wouldn’t know, but it seems to me that music is now more boastful and tough than it once was
    Something in that, however “Thinking of You” is about the sheer unadulterated joy of being in love: the pristine happiness. And, magically, the music captures that and shares it with the listener

    Sublime. As good as any single piece of classical music to my mind - and I love classical music
    Yes, what brought to mind my old thought was the vulnerability & lack of cynicism shown by the singer in “Thinking of You” - just flat out saying her man was what makes life living.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,555
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    I lived in Stone for three years and found it rather enjoyable.
    At one stage I used to want to get back to Canvey Island.

    Those days are long gone though!
    My roots - and indeed the roots of my roots - are sunk deep in the coalfields of South Yorkshire. I feel not the slightest pull, which is rational because it's a bit grim, but just occasionally I feel sad about this because I haven't replaced it with any alternative sense of belonging anywhere else.
    Do you not feel any attachment to London? At all? I do. Quite deeply

    It’s always a love hate relationship but it can really be love - especially after a long time away - driving in and seeing the first Tube station, the first black cab, the first big red bus

    And then the particular places I know and adore. Soho on a busy rainy night; the cobbles glistening. Regent’s Park on a glorious sunny day, the Nash Terraces shining like palaces. The Thames at Richmond or Westminster or Tower Bridge, mighty and indifferent

    Primrose Hill at dusk

    I am attached to quite a few places by roots or later emotions but London is fundamental to me as one of those
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Tory MP Bob Stewart found guilty of racial abuse

    Bob Stewart showed "racial hostility" towards a protester during a demonstration outside a Foreign Office building, a court heard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-bob-stewart-accused-of-racial-hostility-in-row-with-protester-12999493

    It seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    When you're a person of colour and somebody tells you to go back home/specific country it can be incredibly hurtful.

    My response is generally, sure, I really want to get back to Sheffield as well.
    I once said, at the end of a very long, tiring parents' evening, 'I really, really want to get back to Cannock.'

    One of my colleagues gave me a strange look, and said, 'I've never heard anyone say that before.'

    (Not that she could talk, she was from Burton.)
    I lived in Stone for three years and found it rather enjoyable.
    At one stage I used to want to get back to Canvey Island.

    Those days are long gone though!
    My roots - and indeed the roots of my roots - are sunk deep in the coalfields of South Yorkshire. I feel not the slightest pull, which is rational because it's a bit grim, but just occasionally I feel sad about this because I haven't replaced it with any alternative sense of belonging anywhere else.
    My father, and my much later researches, link me to the the South Wales coalfield and before that to the fields and farms of Welsh South West Wales.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,307

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Just keep on doing what you’re doing to me

    Wrong forum?
    It’s a line from “Thinking of You”

    Sister Sledge

    It really is one of the triumphant moments of pop
    music. Up there with MmmBop and There She Goes

    Pure joy turned into genius guitar and exuberant bass

    And it’s so happy. Pop music used to capture and distill happiness and mainline it into you

    https://youtu.be/9iUE4F9UHok?si=hJ2SlbQ3Rhrx5Syp
    I had a take about a decade ago that one of the big differences between pop music now and that of the 60s-80s was the lack of vulnerability shown/sadness that a relationship ended. Don’t know if that’s actually proven by the stats. I am so out of the loop now I wouldn’t know, but it seems to me that music is now more boastful and tough than it once was
    Adele has built an entire musical career out of breakup songs.
    Peter Kay has built an entire comedy career talking about what his Nan does at funerals.
This discussion has been closed.