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How death and ill health have ceased to be the main causes of by-elections – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Yes, the real class divide now is between posh Liberal v Tory bluewall seats and working class Labour v Tory seats, rather than between Labour v Tory
  • See cash is bad.

    Young people saving cash in envelopes at home as part of a social media trend are being targeted by burglars.

    Admiral Insurance warned that it had seen a rise in claims involving cash, including where significant amounts of cash kept in envelopes have been stolen during break-ins.

    “Cash stuffing”, a trend born on social media apps such as TikTok, sees savers meticulously file away cash in brightly coloured envelopes at home, rather than rely on current accounts.

    In one video posted by TikTok user BudgetsWithBeth, the self-described cash-stuffer organises her savings in various wallets with labels such as “monthly money”, “petrol”, “window cleaning” and “back to bank”.

    In the video Beth says; “It’s the start of October which means it’s time to go back to my folders and replenish them for the month.

    “I often get comments asking me, ‘What is wrong with a bank’, why do I not keep this money in there? For me, having the physical cash in front of me means that I know what my budget is and I do not overspend.

    “Since starting cash-stuffing I have saved more money than I ever did using my bank account, so for me, this works really well.”

    Beth divides her money between essential spending such as petrol and food before setting aside money for weekend and social spending. A separate folder contains dividers for “giving to charity” and “holiday fund”.

    Any surplus money from previous months, she adds, is put into a savings account. Dozens of similar videos are posted to the app under the hashtag #cashstuffing, racking up tens of thousands of likes per video.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/thieves-gen-zs-tiktok-savings-trend-viral-cash-stuffing/

    File under cash is good, people are stupid. These are the sorts of people who post up pictures of when they are on holiday so burglers know when to rob their houses or who fall for card scams.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Leon said:

    See cash is bad.

    Young people saving cash in envelopes at home as part of a social media trend are being targeted by burglars.

    Admiral Insurance warned that it had seen a rise in claims involving cash, including where significant amounts of cash kept in envelopes have been stolen during break-ins.

    “Cash stuffing”, a trend born on social media apps such as TikTok, sees savers meticulously file away cash in brightly coloured envelopes at home, rather than rely on current accounts.

    In one video posted by TikTok user BudgetsWithBeth, the self-described cash-stuffer organises her savings in various wallets with labels such as “monthly money”, “petrol”, “window cleaning” and “back to bank”.

    In the video Beth says; “It’s the start of October which means it’s time to go back to my folders and replenish them for the month.

    “I often get comments asking me, ‘What is wrong with a bank’, why do I not keep this money in there? For me, having the physical cash in front of me means that I know what my budget is and I do not overspend.

    “Since starting cash-stuffing I have saved more money than I ever did using my bank account, so for me, this works really well.”

    Beth divides her money between essential spending such as petrol and food before setting aside money for weekend and social spending. A separate folder contains dividers for “giving to charity” and “holiday fund”.

    Any surplus money from previous months, she adds, is put into a savings account. Dozens of similar videos are posted to the app under the hashtag #cashstuffing, racking up tens of thousands of likes per video.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/thieves-gen-zs-tiktok-savings-trend-viral-cash-stuffing/

    Young people are completely stupid. The drop in IQ is now palpable
    Every generations relative IQ goes up (because it is a moving average). So on tests now people from the 50s would likely score well below 100. This is one of the main criticisms of IQ as a method of testing intelligence, in fact, because all it really does is test vocabulary and problem solving and, as much as you might think otherwise, young people now do have a larger contextual vocabulary than previous generations due to industrialisation.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-you-smarter-than-your-grandfather-probably-not-150402883/

    There also seems to be a hardwired "must criticise the kids" part of human / western culture:

    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Socrates
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good morning everyone!

    I was quite shocked by how old, and indeed feeble, Biden, looked on TV yesterday.

    Irrespective of your views of Joe Biden as a politician, as a human being it really can’t be in his best interests to be still wanting to do this job for more than another five years. He’s clearly in very poor health, which is noticeably deteriorating.

    The Dems really should open up their primary process, and choose someone else.
    Fox etc. have been claiming this since day one. I don’t know. I do know that Biden remains cognitively stronger than Trump. Trump repeatedly talks about Obama being President, he thought the next world war will be World War II, he said Republicans “eat their young”, his speeches become ever more rambling.

    The Republicans would be in a much stronger position if they could replace Trump with anyone vaguely sane and non-criminal. For starters, they might be able to pick a Speaker.
    Trump and Biden need each other.

    The USA needs neither.
    That's just lazy both-sidesism.

    Biden has been, on balance, a very good president, IMO. And is quite possibly the only contender who would have beaten Trump last time around.
    Trump is a cancer on the body politic, and will be a threat whether or not Biden runs.
    Assuming Trump is not convicted and jailed in his criminal trials next year
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    ONS weekly deaths:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending06october2023

    For the first time in months, all deaths (including COVID) were below the five-year average. The non-COVID excess deaths since May 2020 currently at 6,000 below the five-year average for that time. It feels like the reaper may have caught up with the low-hanging fruit from lockdown. Hopefully we won't get a repeat of last winter's surge in deaths.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    India's SC declines to legalise same sex marriage saying that would be for Parliament to decide. Albeit it also says LGBTQ rights must be obtained
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-india-66917126
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good morning everyone!

    I was quite shocked by how old, and indeed feeble, Biden, looked on TV yesterday.

    Irrespective of your views of Joe Biden as a politician, as a human being it really can’t be in his best interests to be still wanting to do this job for more than another five years. He’s clearly in very poor health, which is noticeably deteriorating.

    The Dems really should open up their primary process, and choose someone else.
    Fox etc. have been claiming this since day one. I don’t know. I do know that Biden remains cognitively stronger than Trump. Trump repeatedly talks about Obama being President, he thought the next world war will be World War II, he said Republicans “eat their young”, his speeches become ever more rambling.

    The Republicans would be in a much stronger position if they could replace Trump with anyone vaguely sane and non-criminal. For starters, they might be able to pick a Speaker.
    Trump and Biden need each other.

    The USA needs neither.
    That's just lazy both-sidesism.

    Biden has been, on balance, a very good president, IMO. And is quite possibly the only contender who would have beaten Trump last time around.
    Trump is a cancer on the body politic, and will be a threat whether or not Biden runs.
    Biden as Dem candidate gives Trump his best chance of winning.

    Trump as GOP candidate gives Biden his best chance of winning.

    That is why they need each other.
    I don't think either of those is true. The Dems would have better chances with Biden than with Kamala, Bernie, Warren or Bloomberg. The GOP would have better chances of winning with Trump than with DeSantis, Ramaswamy and maybe even some of the traditional conservatives like Pence or Ryan.

    In both cases there are other candidates they could pick who *would* be more electable, but those people wouldn't necessarily be the alternative the primary voters would pick.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    Richard Madeley asks British Palestinian MP Layla Moran if she or her family knew about Hamas's attack before it happened

    https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1714160604389277889


    Yes Hamas told all 1 million people in Gaza prior to the attacks and no one told Israel.

    How stupid and crass can you be?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Phil said:

    Richard Madeley asks British Palestinian MP Layla Moran if she or her family knew about Hamas's attack before it happened

    https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1714160604389277889

    How utterly crass.
    Madeley seems determined to live his whole life on air as the real life avatar of Alan Partridge.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    tlg86 said:

    ONS weekly deaths:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending06october2023

    For the first time in months, all deaths (including COVID) were below the five-year average. The non-COVID excess deaths since May 2020 currently at 6,000 below the five-year average for that time. It feels like the reaper may have caught up with the low-hanging fruit from lockdown. Hopefully we won't get a repeat of last winter's surge in deaths.


    No doubt I could look it up, but is the five year average continuing to move or has it been fixed pre-pandemic? i.e. does the five year average now include Covid and the post-Covid deaths, therefore raising the baseline against which these are compared?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    See cash is bad.

    Young people saving cash in envelopes at home as part of a social media trend are being targeted by burglars.

    Admiral Insurance warned that it had seen a rise in claims involving cash, including where significant amounts of cash kept in envelopes have been stolen during break-ins.

    “Cash stuffing”, a trend born on social media apps such as TikTok, sees savers meticulously file away cash in brightly coloured envelopes at home, rather than rely on current accounts.

    In one video posted by TikTok user BudgetsWithBeth, the self-described cash-stuffer organises her savings in various wallets with labels such as “monthly money”, “petrol”, “window cleaning” and “back to bank”.

    In the video Beth says; “It’s the start of October which means it’s time to go back to my folders and replenish them for the month.

    “I often get comments asking me, ‘What is wrong with a bank’, why do I not keep this money in there? For me, having the physical cash in front of me means that I know what my budget is and I do not overspend.

    “Since starting cash-stuffing I have saved more money than I ever did using my bank account, so for me, this works really well.”

    Beth divides her money between essential spending such as petrol and food before setting aside money for weekend and social spending. A separate folder contains dividers for “giving to charity” and “holiday fund”.

    Any surplus money from previous months, she adds, is put into a savings account. Dozens of similar videos are posted to the app under the hashtag #cashstuffing, racking up tens of thousands of likes per video.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/thieves-gen-zs-tiktok-savings-trend-viral-cash-stuffing/

    Young people are completely stupid. The drop in IQ is now palpable
    Every generations relative IQ goes up (because it is a moving average). So on tests now people from the 50s would likely score well below 100. This is one of the main criticisms of IQ as a method of testing intelligence, in fact, because all it really does is test vocabulary and problem solving and, as much as you might think otherwise, young people now do have a larger contextual vocabulary than previous generations due to industrialisation.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-you-smarter-than-your-grandfather-probably-not-150402883/

    There also seems to be a hardwired "must criticise the kids" part of human / western culture:

    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Socrates
    No, you’re wrong

    IQs were going up - the Flynn Effect - now they are going down - the Reverse Flynn Effect

    “In 1984, New Zealand educator, James R. Flynn researched how much average IQ test scores had increased over the 20th century and found they increased by an average of 3 points per decade. Flynn attributed this increase to better nutrition. Flynn continued his work and other scientists followed suit until they all noticed that children born in 1975 reached ‘peak IQ’ and average intelligence had been dropping ever since. This is called the ‘Reverse Flynn Effect’.

    No one knows for sure why IQs are dropping but a study by Norwegian scientists with access to 30 years of IQ test results for young adults determined that the drop was not due to genetics. “


    https://www.develop.bc.ca/the-reverse-flynn-effect/
  • Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, a really quite striking shift in the reason for byelections.

    Is it that our MPs are now more badly behaved? Or is it that they are better policed?

    Or is it just that MPs are younger, more likely to resign for other opportunities, and in better health?

    I think voters more sympathetic to a party that loses an MP for health reasons than one to misbehavior.

    I think better policed. The ability to actually deal with MPs bad behaviour in away that leads to recall has only existed since 2015. How many of these MPs would have hung on without that?
    Yes, without recall it's hard to see someone like Bone being evicted.

    Without recall, would anyone even have bothered resurrecting what appears to have been an isolated incident from ten years ago?
    The incident wasn't 'resurrected' - its investigation by the IEP was delayed for a decade by the Conservatives. Nor was it isolated.
    What is funny is that had it been investigated immediately a decade ago Bone would probably not be facing losing his seat.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    See cash is bad.

    Young people saving cash in envelopes at home as part of a social media trend are being targeted by burglars.

    Admiral Insurance warned that it had seen a rise in claims involving cash, including where significant amounts of cash kept in envelopes have been stolen during break-ins.

    “Cash stuffing”, a trend born on social media apps such as TikTok, sees savers meticulously file away cash in brightly coloured envelopes at home, rather than rely on current accounts.

    In one video posted by TikTok user BudgetsWithBeth, the self-described cash-stuffer organises her savings in various wallets with labels such as “monthly money”, “petrol”, “window cleaning” and “back to bank”.

    In the video Beth says; “It’s the start of October which means it’s time to go back to my folders and replenish them for the month.

    “I often get comments asking me, ‘What is wrong with a bank’, why do I not keep this money in there? For me, having the physical cash in front of me means that I know what my budget is and I do not overspend.

    “Since starting cash-stuffing I have saved more money than I ever did using my bank account, so for me, this works really well.”

    Beth divides her money between essential spending such as petrol and food before setting aside money for weekend and social spending. A separate folder contains dividers for “giving to charity” and “holiday fund”.

    Any surplus money from previous months, she adds, is put into a savings account. Dozens of similar videos are posted to the app under the hashtag #cashstuffing, racking up tens of thousands of likes per video.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/thieves-gen-zs-tiktok-savings-trend-viral-cash-stuffing/

    File under cash is good, people are stupid. These are the sorts of people who post up pictures of when they are on holiday so burglers know when to rob their houses or who fall for card scams.
    Its easy to be a bit sniffy about this, but my mother in law relied on using cash in her handbag to limit what she spent. She had no ability to see what she spent if she used a card, but if it was handing over notes it was 'real' spending. Its also the case that, until recently, the banks would have been paying next to no interest on cash deposits, so the people keeping cash at home were not exactly losing out.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Selebian said:

    tlg86 said:

    ONS weekly deaths:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending06october2023

    For the first time in months, all deaths (including COVID) were below the five-year average. The non-COVID excess deaths since May 2020 currently at 6,000 below the five-year average for that time. It feels like the reaper may have caught up with the low-hanging fruit from lockdown. Hopefully we won't get a repeat of last winter's surge in deaths.


    No doubt I could look it up, but is the five year average continuing to move or has it been fixed pre-pandemic? i.e. does the five year average now include Covid and the post-Covid deaths, therefore raising the baseline against which these are compared?
    ONS are doing the following:

    The five-year average for each year is as follows: 2017 to 2019, and 2021 to 2022 for comparisons with 2023; 2016 to 2019 and 2021 for comparisons with 2022; and 2015 to 2019 for comparisons with 2020 and 2021.

    However, I am doing my own thing which is to use 2020 for January to March and then 2021 from April to December.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Phil said:

    Richard Madeley asks British Palestinian MP Layla Moran if she or her family knew about Hamas's attack before it happened

    https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1714160604389277889

    How utterly crass.
    Anyone else, on seeing the word crass, go "....Herie, Hodie" in their head?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Is that where the Lib Dems got their love of sandals from?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Phil said:

    Richard Madeley asks British Palestinian MP Layla Moran if she or her family knew about Hamas's attack before it happened

    https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1714160604389277889

    How utterly crass.
    Yes, but more shark jump. With sharks jumping over the sharks that are jumping over the other sharks that Madeley is jumping over. As in WTAFF???
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Phil said:

    Richard Madeley asks British Palestinian MP Layla Moran if she or her family knew about Hamas's attack before it happened

    https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1714160604389277889

    How utterly crass.
    Anyone else, on seeing the word crass, go "....Herie, Hodie" in their head?
    No, no idea what you are referring to either!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Watling Street was used to mark the frontier of the Danelaw - so, yes
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Some details emerging of Toyota's prospective solid state battery.

    Toyota And Idemitsu Team Up To Make 621-Mile Solid-State Batteries A Reality
    https://insideevs.com/news/691084/toyota-idemitsu-solid-state-battery-ev-2027/
    ...A timeline for the three-phase plan was not provided, but Toyota President and CEO Koji Sato said that a longstanding technical issue for solid-state batteries has been that repeatedly charging and discharging the battery causes cracks between the anodes, cathodes, and solid electrolytes, degrading battery performance.

    “Through repeated trial and error and by combining the material technologies of both companies, we have been able to develop a crack-resistant material that demonstrates high performance,” he added.

    “By combining this new solid electrolyte with the Toyota Group's cathode and anode materials and battery technologies, we are now on the path toward achieving both performance and durability in solid-state batteries.”

    At the same time, Idemitsu Kosan President and CEO Shunichi Kito said that sulfide-based solid electrolytes, which are byproducts of improving petroleum products, are the most promising solution for EV battery issues like cruising range and charging times.

    “Idemitsu discovered the usefulness of sulfur components in the mid-1990s, and through our research and technological capabilities cultivated over many years, we have succeeded in creating a solid electrolyte,” said Idemitsu’s CEO. “This solid electrolyte is about to open up a new future for mobility.”.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Danelaw was up to Watling Street.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Phil said:

    Richard Madeley asks British Palestinian MP Layla Moran if she or her family knew about Hamas's attack before it happened

    https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1714160604389277889

    How utterly crass.
    Anyone else, on seeing the word crass, go "....Herie, Hodie" in their head?
    No, no idea what you are referring to either!
    Cras, Hodie, Heri are Latin for Tomorrow, Today, Yesterday

    part of the basic rote learning in Latin.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    See cash is bad.

    Young people saving cash in envelopes at home as part of a social media trend are being targeted by burglars.

    Admiral Insurance warned that it had seen a rise in claims involving cash, including where significant amounts of cash kept in envelopes have been stolen during break-ins.

    “Cash stuffing”, a trend born on social media apps such as TikTok, sees savers meticulously file away cash in brightly coloured envelopes at home, rather than rely on current accounts.

    In one video posted by TikTok user BudgetsWithBeth, the self-described cash-stuffer organises her savings in various wallets with labels such as “monthly money”, “petrol”, “window cleaning” and “back to bank”.

    In the video Beth says; “It’s the start of October which means it’s time to go back to my folders and replenish them for the month.

    “I often get comments asking me, ‘What is wrong with a bank’, why do I not keep this money in there? For me, having the physical cash in front of me means that I know what my budget is and I do not overspend.

    “Since starting cash-stuffing I have saved more money than I ever did using my bank account, so for me, this works really well.”

    Beth divides her money between essential spending such as petrol and food before setting aside money for weekend and social spending. A separate folder contains dividers for “giving to charity” and “holiday fund”.

    Any surplus money from previous months, she adds, is put into a savings account. Dozens of similar videos are posted to the app under the hashtag #cashstuffing, racking up tens of thousands of likes per video.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/thieves-gen-zs-tiktok-savings-trend-viral-cash-stuffing/

    Young people are completely stupid. The drop in IQ is now palpable
    Every generations relative IQ goes up (because it is a moving average). So on tests now people from the 50s would likely score well below 100. This is one of the main criticisms of IQ as a method of testing intelligence, in fact, because all it really does is test vocabulary and problem solving and, as much as you might think otherwise, young people now do have a larger contextual vocabulary than previous generations due to industrialisation.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-you-smarter-than-your-grandfather-probably-not-150402883/

    There also seems to be a hardwired "must criticise the kids" part of human / western culture:

    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Socrates
    No, you’re wrong

    IQs were going up - the Flynn Effect - now they are going down - the Reverse Flynn Effect

    “In 1984, New Zealand educator, James R. Flynn researched how much average IQ test scores had increased over the 20th century and found they increased by an average of 3 points per decade. Flynn attributed this increase to better nutrition. Flynn continued his work and other scientists followed suit until they all noticed that children born in 1975 reached ‘peak IQ’ and average intelligence had been dropping ever since. This is called the ‘Reverse Flynn Effect’.

    No one knows for sure why IQs are dropping but a study by Norwegian scientists with access to 30 years of IQ test results for young adults determined that the drop was not due to genetics. “


    https://www.develop.bc.ca/the-reverse-flynn-effect/
    I was born in 1975, the year of peak IQ. I wouldn't say my kids are noticeably less smart than I am, though.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    edited October 2023
    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There is a succession problem in the Democrats and that is one of the issues, IMHO, why Biden is keen to stick it out.

    Problem No.1 is Kamala Harris. If Biden bows out, then there will be pressure to elevate his VP. Kamala is not well regarded, to put it mildly.

    The other problem is that the most likely inheritors ideologically (the AOCs, the Bernies, even Warren) actively have an argument that takes pot shots at the legacies of the previous Democratic POTUS that are still around and big players in the party, and as long as that is the case there will be fighting. I think it is fair to say that the Obama promise of "Hope and Change" did not happen - but with Barack still around (and likely to be around for a long time) it's very hard to say that. It's why the media fawned over Buttigieg despite voters not caring about him - because he is the Obama mould figure.

    Newsom obviously wants the job, but I don't think he'll get it - his recent moderate / conservative streak will shut him out during the primary. I still think

    Raphael Warnock might be a good shout if he wins again - a charismatic religious African American from the South. He is also more progressive than Obama was.

    Obviously Gretcher Whitmer gets talked about a lot - she took what was becoming a pretty red state and has made it blue, as well as that she has made a big issue out of abortion - and again is more progressive than many top figures in the Democratic party; on legalisation of weed, healthcare, education etc. I think even she would be considered a threat to Obama's legacy...
    Can you explain what you mean by "the most likely inheritors ideologically" ?
    Being of the left of the party is very far from a slam dunk for getting the nomination; quite the opposite indeed.
    I think that the centre of the Democratic party is looking at losing the argument - Biden has moved significantly leftwards throughout his career and as president, and he is a good example of a Democratic politician who basically sticks to stuff that is popular in his party base.

    Also older African American and Latino voters are a lot more moderate / conservative. With African Americans this is shown by their tendency to back what they view as the "electable" candidate, even if they don't support their policies, and very few voting for the GOP. With Latinos, this is shown with quite a few voting for the GOP (although there are significant differences between the different origins of people collectively known as Latinos). This is changing with younger African Americans and Latinos, where you're seeing a slight increase in the number of conservative voters, alongside a huge slide in centrists and a big growth in the left of the party.

    Bernie Sanders may not have won a Presidential primary, but he is the 3rd most popular Democrat after Obama and Carter (despite not being a Democrat) and is second after Obama with millennials. AOC is in the top 10, and top 5 with millennials. The Democratic party leadership is still being run by politicians of the baby boomer generation, but it looks like Gen X might get skipped and it will go straight to millennials. The labour movement is also going from strength to strength, as is hugely popular, which has not really been the case since Reagan. Whilst union membership isn't increasing as much as their popularity, it still suggests a change in political attitudes.

    I don't think this is the "generational bomb" that Democrats have always said will come at some point, I think it is mostly the material conditions of living during peak capitalism for most people is bad in the US and only one party looks like it could be a vehicle for positive change, however slow, whilst the other party is only a vehicle for white grievance. Now there are a lot of people in the US who hold that white grievance, and the GOP are especially good at using the mechanisms of the US "vetocracy" so that even when in the minority they can block policy; but things like this speaker crisis and just the sheer popularity of lots of centre-left policies make that white grievance coalition stick together.

    Edit: source for my polling is YouGov https://today.yougov.com/ratings/politics/popularity/Democrats/all
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited October 2023

    Is Rishi Sunak about to get an unlikely boost by winning both the Tamworth and Mid-Bedfordshire by-elections?

    The national polls might be dire for the Conservatives but it was interesting to hear senior Tory and Labour figures yesterday forecast a double Tory win on Thursday.


    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1714200945771287027

    If he wins both then I’m not sure the Tories can draw tremendous comfort - (unless they are blow-out wins, which is highly unlikely) - these are seats they should be winning. It would however suggest a stickiness in the Tory vote that isn’t currently showing up in the polls and could give an indicator to a comfortable loss next year (say 200-230 seats) as opposed to a 1997+ cataclysm.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Sandpit said:

    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.

    Given that the assailant was shouting "Alan's Snackbar!", this is bacon butty related violence, Shirley?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    Sandpit said:

    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.

    A couple of days ago people were pointing out the many, many times they had previously used the words terrorist or terrorism. This BBC "rule" seems to be entirely arbitrary and only really applied to one region.
  • "Depending on how many helicopters were present in Berdyansk and Luhansk, we may see the worst single day losses in Russian Air Force history."

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1714184214331994117

    Just a reminder that Russia is illegally occupying 22 times more territory than Israel is.
  • Sandpit said:

    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.

    So, someone on the desk used the word without thinking, and then it was pointed out that it was against policy, so they changed it? Nothing to see here.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Is there also a production divide? I always got the sense (perhaps incorrectly) that the midlands and north were the industrial heartlands and the south east stayed focussed on agricultural production and the place the rich went on holiday during the industrial revolution.

    I'm not saying it couldn't be something more long term like the cultural distinction of Danelaw and such, but still.
  • Sandpit said:

    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.

    Given that the assailant was shouting "Alan's Snackbar!", this is bacon butty related violence, Shirley?
    Allahu art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    All downhill after Steely Dan were formed.

  • I was born in 1975, the year of peak IQ. I wouldn't say my kids are noticeably less smart than I am, though.

    Hopefully they will be smart enough to realise that one data point tells you nothing about the distribution.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    glw said:

    Sandpit said:

    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.

    A couple of days ago people were pointing out the many, many times they had previously used the words terrorist or terrorism. This BBC "rule" seems to be entirely arbitrary and only really applied to one region.
    Finally, an actual use for unconscious bias training.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    On topic, I suspect that MPs behaviour hasn't deteriorated at all over the last 50 years. What has changed is the social acceptability of such behaviour and the extent to which a blind eye is turned. Bullying and sexual harassment are no longer tolerated to the extent they were, especially by young staffers, and Parliament's code of behaviour and processes for dealing with it reflect that. Which is why old dinosaurs like Bone are being caught, because they refuse to change with the times.

    The woke have got a lot to answer for, in their refusal to tolerate everyday bullying and sexual harassment by MPs, obviously.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    All downhill after Steely Dan were formed.
    "Young people today just want to hang around the shops, talk nonsense and sing silly songs." - Plato, probably.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    I live only a few hundred metres from Wattling Street (Old Kent Road/New Cross Road) and can't say I've noticed a dramatic difference in political affiliation on different sides of this ancient thoroughfare... Having said that, this dividing line does look in the right kind of place, between cold England and warm England. North and East vs South and West. There is certainly a difference in culture and outlook between the two, in my experience.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Sandpit said:

    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.

    Given that the assailant was shouting "Alan's Snackbar!", this is bacon butty related violence, Shirley?
    Allahu art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name.
    Aloha
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good morning everyone!

    I was quite shocked by how old, and indeed feeble, Biden, looked on TV yesterday.

    Irrespective of your views of Joe Biden as a politician, as a human being it really can’t be in his best interests to be still wanting to do this job for more than another five years. He’s clearly in very poor health, which is noticeably deteriorating.

    The Dems really should open up their primary process, and choose someone else.
    Fox etc. have been claiming this since day one. I don’t know. I do know that Biden remains cognitively stronger than Trump. Trump repeatedly talks about Obama being President, he thought the next world war will be World War II, he said Republicans “eat their young”, his speeches become ever more rambling.

    The Republicans would be in a much stronger position if they could replace Trump with anyone vaguely sane and non-criminal. For starters, they might be able to pick a Speaker.
    Trump and Biden need each other.

    The USA needs neither.
    That's just lazy both-sidesism.

    Biden has been, on balance, a very good president, IMO. And is quite possibly the only contender who would have beaten Trump last time around.
    Trump is a cancer on the body politic, and will be a threat whether or not Biden runs.
    Biden as Dem candidate gives Trump his best chance of winning.

    Trump as GOP candidate gives Biden his best chance of winning.

    That is why they need each other.
    I don't think either of those is true. The Dems would have better chances with Biden than with Kamala, Bernie, Warren or Bloomberg. The GOP would have better chances of winning with Trump than with DeSantis, Ramaswamy and maybe even some of the traditional conservatives like Pence or Ryan.

    In both cases there are other candidates they could pick who *would* be more electable, but those people wouldn't necessarily be the alternative the primary voters would pick.
    I think Kamala would lose worse to Trump than Biden looks like he might - whereas I think Sanders would likely win. I think Trump is actually the best placed Republican to beat Biden - yes some of the others poll better, but that's because they aren't as well known and they aren't Trump. DeSantis is one of those politicians that the more well known he is, the worse his personal popularity ratings get.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Phil said:

    Richard Madeley asks British Palestinian MP Layla Moran if she or her family knew about Hamas's attack before it happened

    https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1714160604389277889

    How utterly crass.
    Anyone else, on seeing the word crass, go "....Herie, Hodie" in their head?
    No, no idea what you are referring to either!
    Cras, Hodie, Heri are Latin for Tomorrow, Today, Yesterday

    part of the basic rote learning in Latin.
    Sadly my Grammar school failed to provide a Latin education and the only Latin I have comes from John Charity Spring
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There is a succession problem in the Democrats and that is one of the issues, IMHO, why Biden is keen to stick it out.

    Problem No.1 is Kamala Harris. If Biden bows out, then there will be pressure to elevate his VP. Kamala is not well regarded, to put it mildly.

    The other problem is that the most likely inheritors ideologically (the AOCs, the Bernies, even Warren) actively have an argument that takes pot shots at the legacies of the previous Democratic POTUS that are still around and big players in the party, and as long as that is the case there will be fighting. I think it is fair to say that the Obama promise of "Hope and Change" did not happen - but with Barack still around (and likely to be around for a long time) it's very hard to say that. It's why the media fawned over Buttigieg despite voters not caring about him - because he is the Obama mould figure.

    Newsom obviously wants the job, but I don't think he'll get it - his recent moderate / conservative streak will shut him out during the primary. I still think

    Raphael Warnock might be a good shout if he wins again - a charismatic religious African American from the South. He is also more progressive than Obama was.

    Obviously Gretcher Whitmer gets talked about a lot - she took what was becoming a pretty red state and has made it blue, as well as that she has made a big issue out of abortion - and again is more progressive than many top figures in the Democratic party; on legalisation of weed, healthcare, education etc. I think even she would be considered a threat to Obama's legacy...
    Can you explain what you mean by "the most likely inheritors ideologically" ?
    Being of the left of the party is very far from a slam dunk for getting the nomination; quite the opposite indeed.
    I think that the centre of the Democratic party is looking at losing the argument - Biden has moved significantly leftwards throughout his career and as president, and he is a good example of a Democratic politician who basically sticks to stuff that is popular in his party base.

    Also older African American and Latino voters are a lot more moderate / conservative. With African Americans this is shown by their tendency to back what they view as the "electable" candidate, even if they don't support their policies, and very few voting for the GOP. With Latinos, this is shown with quite a few voting for the GOP (although there are significant differences between the different origins of people collectively known as Latinos). This is changing with younger African Americans and Latinos, where you're seeing a slight increase in the number of conservative voters, alongside a huge slide in centrists and a big growth in the left of the party.

    Bernie Sanders may not have won a Presidential primary, but he is the 3rd most popular Democrat after Obama and Carter (despite not being a Democrat) and is second after Obama with millennials. AOC is in the top 10, and top 5 with millennials. The Democratic party leadership is still being run by politicians of the baby boomer generation, but it looks like Gen X might get skipped and it will go straight to millennials. The labour movement is also going from strength to strength, as is hugely popular, which has not really been the case since Reagan. Whilst union membership isn't increasing as much as their popularity, it still suggests a change in political attitudes.

    I don't think this is the "generational bomb" that Democrats have always said will come at some point, I think it is mostly the material conditions of living during peak capitalism for most people is bad in the US and only one party looks like it could be a vehicle for positive change, however slow, whilst the other party is only a vehicle for white grievance. Now there are a lot of people in the US who hold that white grievance, and the GOP are especially good at using the mechanisms of the US "vetocracy" so that even when in the minority they can block policy; but things like this speaker crisis and just the sheer popularity of lots of centre-left policies make that white grievance coalition stick together.

    Edit: source for my polling is YouGov https://today.yougov.com/ratings/politics/popularity/Democrats/all
    Thanks for the lengthy response.
    I suspect, though, that one simple but difficult to define metric would decide who the next nominee might be - who is the best at campaigning, Within a range, ideology is less important.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
    lol. I’m sorry the truth hurts

    You can also see the decline in IQ in American SAT scores. They are really plunging quite fast now (and the earlier rise concurs with the born-in-1975-as-peak theory)

    See here


  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Is there also a production divide? I always got the sense (perhaps incorrectly) that the midlands and north were the industrial heartlands and the south east stayed focussed on agricultural production and the place the rich went on holiday during the industrial revolution.

    I'm not saying it couldn't be something more long term like the cultural distinction of Danelaw and such, but still.
    Yes, I think that's more likely - see my first para. But production follows coal - essentially (up until the 20s at least) industry concentrated in coalfield areas because it's more expensive to transport coal than it is to transport the finished product (because by weight, for any product you're making, the coal to make the energy to make the product was the heaviest element). I can't remember the exact figures, but the amount of coal consumed by an individual mill in a nothern industrial town in a day was absolutely staggering.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Watling Street was used to mark the frontier of the Danelaw - so, yes
    While we are going dodgy correlations, I would quietly note that the UK's motorway development occured in the late 60s/early 70s...

    People used to read on the train/bus and the switch to radio has affected IQ perhaps? Or air pollution, a form of the Environmental Kuznets Curve?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    glw said:

    Sandpit said:

    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.

    A couple of days ago people were pointing out the many, many times they had previously used the words terrorist or terrorism. This BBC "rule" seems to be entirely arbitrary and only really applied to one region.
    If I was making a distinction, I'd base it on non-government versus government action. Brussels - individual without direct government backing: terrorism. Hamas attacks in Israel, well Hamas is the government, so not terrorism - more an act of war (and a war crime, of course, through deliberate targetting of civilians). Israel certainly seem to be treating it as an act of war, rather than a terrorist attack - terrorism you go after the perpetrators; war you attack the aggressor government/country.

    You get into grey areas with the Russian poisonings, though I'd also say not terrorism as state sponsored and very targeted at individuals (I'd also say with terrorism the point is general terror, so no particular targeting beyond a general group, perhaps - Munich attacks were terrorism as the attack was effectively on any Israeli athletes, they didn't particularly care who they did or did not kill within that group). 9/11 terrorism despite links with Afghan government of the time - notable that the US did, IIRC, only invade after demanding the handover of Bin-Laden et al, with the implication that if that had happened there would have been no invasion.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    The Danelaw for comparison

    image
  • Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    See cash is bad.

    Young people saving cash in envelopes at home as part of a social media trend are being targeted by burglars.

    Admiral Insurance warned that it had seen a rise in claims involving cash, including where significant amounts of cash kept in envelopes have been stolen during break-ins.

    “Cash stuffing”, a trend born on social media apps such as TikTok, sees savers meticulously file away cash in brightly coloured envelopes at home, rather than rely on current accounts.

    In one video posted by TikTok user BudgetsWithBeth, the self-described cash-stuffer organises her savings in various wallets with labels such as “monthly money”, “petrol”, “window cleaning” and “back to bank”.

    In the video Beth says; “It’s the start of October which means it’s time to go back to my folders and replenish them for the month.

    “I often get comments asking me, ‘What is wrong with a bank’, why do I not keep this money in there? For me, having the physical cash in front of me means that I know what my budget is and I do not overspend.

    “Since starting cash-stuffing I have saved more money than I ever did using my bank account, so for me, this works really well.”

    Beth divides her money between essential spending such as petrol and food before setting aside money for weekend and social spending. A separate folder contains dividers for “giving to charity” and “holiday fund”.

    Any surplus money from previous months, she adds, is put into a savings account. Dozens of similar videos are posted to the app under the hashtag #cashstuffing, racking up tens of thousands of likes per video.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/thieves-gen-zs-tiktok-savings-trend-viral-cash-stuffing/

    Young people are completely stupid. The drop in IQ is now palpable
    Every generations relative IQ goes up (because it is a moving average). So on tests now people from the 50s would likely score well below 100. This is one of the main criticisms of IQ as a method of testing intelligence, in fact, because all it really does is test vocabulary and problem solving and, as much as you might think otherwise, young people now do have a larger contextual vocabulary than previous generations due to industrialisation.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-you-smarter-than-your-grandfather-probably-not-150402883/

    There also seems to be a hardwired "must criticise the kids" part of human / western culture:

    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Socrates
    No, you’re wrong

    IQs were going up - the Flynn Effect - now they are going down - the Reverse Flynn Effect

    “In 1984, New Zealand educator, James R. Flynn researched how much average IQ test scores had increased over the 20th century and found they increased by an average of 3 points per decade. Flynn attributed this increase to better nutrition. Flynn continued his work and other scientists followed suit until they all noticed that children born in 1975 reached ‘peak IQ’ and average intelligence had been dropping ever since. This is called the ‘Reverse Flynn Effect’.

    No one knows for sure why IQs are dropping but a study by Norwegian scientists with access to 30 years of IQ test results for young adults determined that the drop was not due to genetics. “


    https://www.develop.bc.ca/the-reverse-flynn-effect/
    I was born in 1975, the year of peak IQ. I wouldn't say my kids are noticeably less smart than I am, though.
    I was born in 1966, and my lad is noticeably smarter than I am :disappointed:
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779


    I was born in 1975, the year of peak IQ. I wouldn't say my kids are noticeably less smart than I am, though.

    Hopefully they will be smart enough to realise that one data point tells you nothing about the distribution.
    Well not nothing, but not very much. My daughter has a 9 in GCSE statistics so hopefully she can advise me on these matters.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    See cash is bad.

    Young people saving cash in envelopes at home as part of a social media trend are being targeted by burglars.

    Admiral Insurance warned that it had seen a rise in claims involving cash, including where significant amounts of cash kept in envelopes have been stolen during break-ins.

    “Cash stuffing”, a trend born on social media apps such as TikTok, sees savers meticulously file away cash in brightly coloured envelopes at home, rather than rely on current accounts.

    In one video posted by TikTok user BudgetsWithBeth, the self-described cash-stuffer organises her savings in various wallets with labels such as “monthly money”, “petrol”, “window cleaning” and “back to bank”.

    In the video Beth says; “It’s the start of October which means it’s time to go back to my folders and replenish them for the month.

    “I often get comments asking me, ‘What is wrong with a bank’, why do I not keep this money in there? For me, having the physical cash in front of me means that I know what my budget is and I do not overspend.

    “Since starting cash-stuffing I have saved more money than I ever did using my bank account, so for me, this works really well.”

    Beth divides her money between essential spending such as petrol and food before setting aside money for weekend and social spending. A separate folder contains dividers for “giving to charity” and “holiday fund”.

    Any surplus money from previous months, she adds, is put into a savings account. Dozens of similar videos are posted to the app under the hashtag #cashstuffing, racking up tens of thousands of likes per video.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/thieves-gen-zs-tiktok-savings-trend-viral-cash-stuffing/

    Young people are completely stupid. The drop in IQ is now palpable
    Every generations relative IQ goes up (because it is a moving average). So on tests now people from the 50s would likely score well below 100. This is one of the main criticisms of IQ as a method of testing intelligence, in fact, because all it really does is test vocabulary and problem solving and, as much as you might think otherwise, young people now do have a larger contextual vocabulary than previous generations due to industrialisation.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-you-smarter-than-your-grandfather-probably-not-150402883/

    There also seems to be a hardwired "must criticise the kids" part of human / western culture:

    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Socrates
    No, you’re wrong

    IQs were going up - the Flynn Effect - now they are going down - the Reverse Flynn Effect

    “In 1984, New Zealand educator, James R. Flynn researched how much average IQ test scores had increased over the 20th century and found they increased by an average of 3 points per decade. Flynn attributed this increase to better nutrition. Flynn continued his work and other scientists followed suit until they all noticed that children born in 1975 reached ‘peak IQ’ and average intelligence had been dropping ever since. This is called the ‘Reverse Flynn Effect’.

    No one knows for sure why IQs are dropping but a study by Norwegian scientists with access to 30 years of IQ test results for young adults determined that the drop was not due to genetics. “


    https://www.develop.bc.ca/the-reverse-flynn-effect/
    I was born in 1975, the year of peak IQ. I wouldn't say my kids are noticeably less smart than I am, though.
    I was born in 1966, and my lad is noticeably smarter than I am :disappointed:
    We are starting to populate the distribution!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Is there also a production divide? I always got the sense (perhaps incorrectly) that the midlands and north were the industrial heartlands and the south east stayed focussed on agricultural production and the place the rich went on holiday during the industrial revolution.

    I'm not saying it couldn't be something more long term like the cultural distinction of Danelaw and such, but still.
    Thats probably a stretch. There is industrial history throughout the south and south west, from tin mines in Cornwall, to coal mines in Somerset, and the wool trade, which was far more than just sheep on hills. I'm also slightly skeptical of the data - how different are the areas that are orange and red? 49% vs 51% is not very different at all, 10% vs 90% is huge, but no way of knowing on that chart.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    I live only a few hundred metres from Wattling Street (Old Kent Road/New Cross Road) and can't say I've noticed a dramatic difference in political affiliation on different sides of this ancient thoroughfare... Having said that, this dividing line does look in the right kind of place, between cold England and warm England. North and East vs South and West. There is certainly a difference in culture and outlook between the two, in my experience.
    Yes. I’m sure it’s the Danelaw. Tho it’s fascinating to speculate that Watling Street itself created or even followed some earlier divide.

    There are several anomalies. The nice bits of Essex and Norfolk and most of Suffolk feel very
    south to me. They’re on the wrong side of the tracks
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Is there also a production divide? I always got the sense (perhaps incorrectly) that the midlands and north were the industrial heartlands and the south east stayed focussed on agricultural production and the place the rich went on holiday during the industrial revolution.

    I'm not saying it couldn't be something more long term like the cultural distinction of Danelaw and such, but still.
    Thats probably a stretch. There is industrial history throughout the south and south west, from tin mines in Cornwall, to coal mines in Somerset, and the wool trade, which was far more than just sheep on hills. I'm also slightly skeptical of the data - how different are the areas that are orange and red? 49% vs 51% is not very different at all, 10% vs 90% is huge, but no way of knowing on that chart.
    Well that's true, but the most industrial areas in the south/south west on that map are also the anomalous red blobs below the line.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    See cash is bad.

    Young people saving cash in envelopes at home as part of a social media trend are being targeted by burglars.

    Admiral Insurance warned that it had seen a rise in claims involving cash, including where significant amounts of cash kept in envelopes have been stolen during break-ins.

    “Cash stuffing”, a trend born on social media apps such as TikTok, sees savers meticulously file away cash in brightly coloured envelopes at home, rather than rely on current accounts.

    In one video posted by TikTok user BudgetsWithBeth, the self-described cash-stuffer organises her savings in various wallets with labels such as “monthly money”, “petrol”, “window cleaning” and “back to bank”.

    In the video Beth says; “It’s the start of October which means it’s time to go back to my folders and replenish them for the month.

    “I often get comments asking me, ‘What is wrong with a bank’, why do I not keep this money in there? For me, having the physical cash in front of me means that I know what my budget is and I do not overspend.

    “Since starting cash-stuffing I have saved more money than I ever did using my bank account, so for me, this works really well.”

    Beth divides her money between essential spending such as petrol and food before setting aside money for weekend and social spending. A separate folder contains dividers for “giving to charity” and “holiday fund”.

    Any surplus money from previous months, she adds, is put into a savings account. Dozens of similar videos are posted to the app under the hashtag #cashstuffing, racking up tens of thousands of likes per video.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/thieves-gen-zs-tiktok-savings-trend-viral-cash-stuffing/

    Young people are completely stupid. The drop in IQ is now palpable
    Every generations relative IQ goes up (because it is a moving average). So on tests now people from the 50s would likely score well below 100. This is one of the main criticisms of IQ as a method of testing intelligence, in fact, because all it really does is test vocabulary and problem solving and, as much as you might think otherwise, young people now do have a larger contextual vocabulary than previous generations due to industrialisation.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-you-smarter-than-your-grandfather-probably-not-150402883/

    There also seems to be a hardwired "must criticise the kids" part of human / western culture:

    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Socrates
    No, you’re wrong

    IQs were going up - the Flynn Effect - now they are going down - the Reverse Flynn Effect

    “In 1984, New Zealand educator, James R. Flynn researched how much average IQ test scores had increased over the 20th century and found they increased by an average of 3 points per decade. Flynn attributed this increase to better nutrition. Flynn continued his work and other scientists followed suit until they all noticed that children born in 1975 reached ‘peak IQ’ and average intelligence had been dropping ever since. This is called the ‘Reverse Flynn Effect’.

    No one knows for sure why IQs are dropping but a study by Norwegian scientists with access to 30 years of IQ test results for young adults determined that the drop was not due to genetics. “


    https://www.develop.bc.ca/the-reverse-flynn-effect/
    I was born in 1975, the year of peak IQ. I wouldn't say my kids are noticeably less smart than I am, though.
    I was born in 1966, and my lad is noticeably smarter than I am :disappointed:
    This does not come as a surprise, I’m afraid to say
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    See cash is bad.

    Young people saving cash in envelopes at home as part of a social media trend are being targeted by burglars.

    Admiral Insurance warned that it had seen a rise in claims involving cash, including where significant amounts of cash kept in envelopes have been stolen during break-ins.

    “Cash stuffing”, a trend born on social media apps such as TikTok, sees savers meticulously file away cash in brightly coloured envelopes at home, rather than rely on current accounts.

    In one video posted by TikTok user BudgetsWithBeth, the self-described cash-stuffer organises her savings in various wallets with labels such as “monthly money”, “petrol”, “window cleaning” and “back to bank”.

    In the video Beth says; “It’s the start of October which means it’s time to go back to my folders and replenish them for the month.

    “I often get comments asking me, ‘What is wrong with a bank’, why do I not keep this money in there? For me, having the physical cash in front of me means that I know what my budget is and I do not overspend.

    “Since starting cash-stuffing I have saved more money than I ever did using my bank account, so for me, this works really well.”

    Beth divides her money between essential spending such as petrol and food before setting aside money for weekend and social spending. A separate folder contains dividers for “giving to charity” and “holiday fund”.

    Any surplus money from previous months, she adds, is put into a savings account. Dozens of similar videos are posted to the app under the hashtag #cashstuffing, racking up tens of thousands of likes per video.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/thieves-gen-zs-tiktok-savings-trend-viral-cash-stuffing/

    Young people are completely stupid. The drop in IQ is now palpable
    Every generations relative IQ goes up (because it is a moving average). So on tests now people from the 50s would likely score well below 100. This is one of the main criticisms of IQ as a method of testing intelligence, in fact, because all it really does is test vocabulary and problem solving and, as much as you might think otherwise, young people now do have a larger contextual vocabulary than previous generations due to industrialisation.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-you-smarter-than-your-grandfather-probably-not-150402883/

    There also seems to be a hardwired "must criticise the kids" part of human / western culture:

    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Socrates
    No, you’re wrong

    IQs were going up - the Flynn Effect - now they are going down - the Reverse Flynn Effect

    “In 1984, New Zealand educator, James R. Flynn researched how much average IQ test scores had increased over the 20th century and found they increased by an average of 3 points per decade. Flynn attributed this increase to better nutrition. Flynn continued his work and other scientists followed suit until they all noticed that children born in 1975 reached ‘peak IQ’ and average intelligence had been dropping ever since. This is called the ‘Reverse Flynn Effect’.

    No one knows for sure why IQs are dropping but a study by Norwegian scientists with access to 30 years of IQ test results for young adults determined that the drop was not due to genetics. “


    https://www.develop.bc.ca/the-reverse-flynn-effect/
    I was born in 1975, the year of peak IQ. I wouldn't say my kids are noticeably less smart than I am, though.
    I was born in 1966, and my lad is noticeably smarter than I am :disappointed:
    Hmm... Was his mother friendly with any intellectuals around the time of conception? :innocent:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    .


    I was born in 1975, the year of peak IQ. I wouldn't say my kids are noticeably less smart than I am, though.

    Hopefully they will be smart enough to realise that one data point tells you nothing about the distribution.
    Well not nothing, but not very much. My daughter has a 9 in GCSE statistics so hopefully she can advise me on these matters.
    Mobile phones and pervasive computing have arguably had a more significant effect on brain development than any other single factor, but does anyone really have a clue about the change, if any, in general levels of intelligence over the last couple of decades ?
    Too many confounding factors, I would have thought.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,520
    edited October 2023
    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
    Whilst I disagree with Leon about IQ, what it really is and what it means in terms of 'intelligence', he is right about music becoming more simplistic. This is a measured phenomenon which has been commented on greatly over the last few years in terms of the loss of the key change.

    https://musically.com/2022/11/21/has-the-key-change-been-dying-out/

    The reasons are apparently the growth of Hip-Hop and the increasing use of computers.

    I don't see it in terms of degeneracy nor in terms of 'intellgence' whatever that is, but it is not to my taste.

    Worth clicking through to the original research by Chris Dalla Riva.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    See cash is bad.

    Young people saving cash in envelopes at home as part of a social media trend are being targeted by burglars.

    Admiral Insurance warned that it had seen a rise in claims involving cash, including where significant amounts of cash kept in envelopes have been stolen during break-ins.

    “Cash stuffing”, a trend born on social media apps such as TikTok, sees savers meticulously file away cash in brightly coloured envelopes at home, rather than rely on current accounts.

    In one video posted by TikTok user BudgetsWithBeth, the self-described cash-stuffer organises her savings in various wallets with labels such as “monthly money”, “petrol”, “window cleaning” and “back to bank”.

    In the video Beth says; “It’s the start of October which means it’s time to go back to my folders and replenish them for the month.

    “I often get comments asking me, ‘What is wrong with a bank’, why do I not keep this money in there? For me, having the physical cash in front of me means that I know what my budget is and I do not overspend.

    “Since starting cash-stuffing I have saved more money than I ever did using my bank account, so for me, this works really well.”

    Beth divides her money between essential spending such as petrol and food before setting aside money for weekend and social spending. A separate folder contains dividers for “giving to charity” and “holiday fund”.

    Any surplus money from previous months, she adds, is put into a savings account. Dozens of similar videos are posted to the app under the hashtag #cashstuffing, racking up tens of thousands of likes per video.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/thieves-gen-zs-tiktok-savings-trend-viral-cash-stuffing/

    Young people are completely stupid. The drop in IQ is now palpable
    Every generations relative IQ goes up (because it is a moving average). So on tests now people from the 50s would likely score well below 100. This is one of the main criticisms of IQ as a method of testing intelligence, in fact, because all it really does is test vocabulary and problem solving and, as much as you might think otherwise, young people now do have a larger contextual vocabulary than previous generations due to industrialisation.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-you-smarter-than-your-grandfather-probably-not-150402883/

    There also seems to be a hardwired "must criticise the kids" part of human / western culture:

    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Socrates
    No, you’re wrong

    IQs were going up - the Flynn Effect - now they are going down - the Reverse Flynn Effect

    “In 1984, New Zealand educator, James R. Flynn researched how much average IQ test scores had increased over the 20th century and found they increased by an average of 3 points per decade. Flynn attributed this increase to better nutrition. Flynn continued his work and other scientists followed suit until they all noticed that children born in 1975 reached ‘peak IQ’ and average intelligence had been dropping ever since. This is called the ‘Reverse Flynn Effect’.

    No one knows for sure why IQs are dropping but a study by Norwegian scientists with access to 30 years of IQ test results for young adults determined that the drop was not due to genetics. “


    https://www.develop.bc.ca/the-reverse-flynn-effect/
    I was born in 1975, the year of peak IQ. I wouldn't say my kids are noticeably less smart than I am, though.
    I was born in 1966, and my lad is noticeably smarter than I am :disappointed:
    This does not come as a surprise, I’m afraid to say
    That's exactly what I thought you'd say, which cheers me up somewhat :smile:
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Cookie said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Is there also a production divide? I always got the sense (perhaps incorrectly) that the midlands and north were the industrial heartlands and the south east stayed focussed on agricultural production and the place the rich went on holiday during the industrial revolution.

    I'm not saying it couldn't be something more long term like the cultural distinction of Danelaw and such, but still.
    Thats probably a stretch. There is industrial history throughout the south and south west, from tin mines in Cornwall, to coal mines in Somerset, and the wool trade, which was far more than just sheep on hills. I'm also slightly skeptical of the data - how different are the areas that are orange and red? 49% vs 51% is not very different at all, 10% vs 90% is huge, but no way of knowing on that chart.
    Well that's true, but the most industrial areas in the south/south west on that map are also the anomalous red blobs below the line.
    But the point about the scale is very important. Not unlike lots of dodgy brain scanning science where the differences they are measuring are tiny but the contrast on the image is huge.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
    Mate of mine has been touring with Ed Sheeran as a technician recently. Spoke very highly of him, both in terms of him being decent to work for (he's apparently a genuinely nice bloke, and takes in interest in making sure everything is OK for his team), but also as a musician - apparently he's genuinely talented, even if not to everyone's taste.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    Selebian said:

    glw said:

    Sandpit said:

    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.

    A couple of days ago people were pointing out the many, many times they had previously used the words terrorist or terrorism. This BBC "rule" seems to be entirely arbitrary and only really applied to one region.
    If I was making a distinction, I'd base it on non-government versus government action. Brussels - individual without direct government backing: terrorism. Hamas attacks in Israel, well Hamas is the government, so not terrorism - more an act of war (and a war crime, of course, through deliberate targetting of civilians). Israel certainly seem to be treating it as an act of war, rather than a terrorist attack - terrorism you go after the perpetrators; war you attack the aggressor government/country.

    You get into grey areas with the Russian poisonings, though I'd also say not terrorism as state sponsored and very targeted at individuals (I'd also say with terrorism the point is general terror, so no particular targeting beyond a general group, perhaps - Munich attacks were terrorism as the attack was effectively on any Israeli athletes, they didn't particularly care who they did or did not kill within that group). 9/11 terrorism despite links with Afghan government of the time - notable that the US did, IIRC, only invade after demanding the handover of Bin-Laden et al, with the implication that if that had happened there would have been no invasion.
    In the UK Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation, why the BBC can't simply use that as their guide is beyond me. I'm sure the government lawyers have a much better handle on this than BBC editors do.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    "Depending on how many helicopters were present in Berdyansk and Luhansk, we may see the worst single day losses in Russian Air Force history."

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1714184214331994117

    What a terrible shame that would be for the Russian Air Force.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    There is one consolation in the plunging IQ scores of the young. Soon we won’t have to worry about the most advanced AI overtaking human intelligence, as the average young human will be dumber than, say, a toaster, and will be constantly outwitted by kettles, even as they carefully store their money in little paper envelopes and whistle along to drill music
  • Selebian said:

    glw said:

    Sandpit said:

    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.

    A couple of days ago people were pointing out the many, many times they had previously used the words terrorist or terrorism. This BBC "rule" seems to be entirely arbitrary and only really applied to one region.
    If I was making a distinction, I'd base it on non-government versus government action. Brussels - individual without direct government backing: terrorism. Hamas attacks in Israel, well Hamas is the government, so not terrorism - more an act of war (and a war crime, of course, through deliberate targetting of civilians). Israel certainly seem to be treating it as an act of war, rather than a terrorist attack - terrorism you go after the perpetrators; war you attack the aggressor government/country.

    You get into grey areas with the Russian poisonings, though I'd also say not terrorism as state sponsored and very targeted at individuals (I'd also say with terrorism the point is general terror, so no particular targeting beyond a general group, perhaps - Munich attacks were terrorism as the attack was effectively on any Israeli athletes, they didn't particularly care who they did or did not kill within that group). 9/11 terrorism despite links with Afghan government of the time - notable that the US did, IIRC, only invade after demanding the handover of Bin-Laden et al, with the implication that if that had happened there would have been no invasion.
    For me the word terrorist trivialises the Hamas attack, which imo was an act of war. Terrorism makes it sound like an isolated incident caused by a couple of lads with kitchen knives or even a bomb. This went far beyond that. Those piling on the BBC have got it wrong.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited October 2023
    TikTok - Knocking IQ points off people since 2016....is the honest tag line for that app.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315
    Cookie said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Is there also a production divide? I always got the sense (perhaps incorrectly) that the midlands and north were the industrial heartlands and the south east stayed focussed on agricultural production and the place the rich went on holiday during the industrial revolution.

    I'm not saying it couldn't be something more long term like the cultural distinction of Danelaw and such, but still.
    Yes, I think that's more likely - see my first para. But production follows coal - essentially (up until the 20s at least) industry concentrated in coalfield areas because it's more expensive to transport coal than it is to transport the finished product (because by weight, for any product you're making, the coal to make the energy to make the product was the heaviest element). I can't remember the exact figures, but the amount of coal consumed by an individual mill in a nothern industrial town in a day was absolutely staggering.
    A million people worked down the mines at the turn of the C19th/C20th century. A staggering amount of labour spent in order to produce the energy that the rest of the country ran on.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
    lol. I’m sorry the truth hurts

    You can also see the decline in IQ in American SAT scores. They are really plunging quite fast now (and the earlier rise concurs with the born-in-1975-as-peak theory)

    See here


    Every generation decries the music of the next - even waltz dancing and music was considered unseemly when it first came it.

    And educational outcomes dropped after the 60s, then were steady and dropped again in 2016 - I am sure these are definitely trends of "younger people being thicker" and nothing to do with political decisions around how the American education system works... Especially with that first drop happening between Brown and Brown II I'm sure nothing major happened with American schooling at all...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
    Whilst I disagree with Leon about IQ, what it really is and what it means in terms of 'intelligence', he is right about music becoming more simplistic. This is a measured phenomenon which has been commented on greatly over the last few years in terms of the loss of the key change.

    https://musically.com/2022/11/21/has-the-key-change-been-dying-out/

    The reasons are apparently the growth of Hip-Hop and the increasing use of computers.

    I don't see it in terms of degeneracy nor in terms of 'intellgence' whatever that is, but it is not to my taste.

    Worth clicking through to the original research by Chris Dalla Riva.
    The same decline can be seen in lyrics. Less complexity, more vulgarity. It has been mathematically analysed. And yes of course it is down to intelligence
  • Nigelb said:

    .


    I was born in 1975, the year of peak IQ. I wouldn't say my kids are noticeably less smart than I am, though.

    Hopefully they will be smart enough to realise that one data point tells you nothing about the distribution.
    Well not nothing, but not very much. My daughter has a 9 in GCSE statistics so hopefully she can advise me on these matters.
    Mobile phones and pervasive computing have arguably had a more significant effect on brain development than any other single factor, but does anyone really have a clue about the change, if any, in general levels of intelligence over the last couple of decades ?
    Too many confounding factors, I would have thought.
    Yes, I agree. Life is just so different for youngsters today than in our day that it must be very difficult to compare the skills needed to navigate everyday life. I tend to be alternately astonished by both the smartness and daftness of my lad and his friends, but I guess it was ever the way.
  • CRAIG MURRAY ARRESTED AFTER BACKING “EVERY ACT OF ARMED RESISTANCE” BY HAMAS
    https://order-order.com/2023/10/17/craig-murray-arrested-after-backing-every-act-of-armed-resistance-by-hamas/

    I can never work out how this loony toon got to such a high ranking position.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Selebian said:

    glw said:

    Sandpit said:

    Interesting that “The BBC” is trending worldwide at the moment.

    It appears that they immediately described the incident in Brussels last night as a terrorist attack, then changed the headline as everyone pointed out the hypocrisy of their failing to use that word to describe the events in Israel last weekend.

    A couple of days ago people were pointing out the many, many times they had previously used the words terrorist or terrorism. This BBC "rule" seems to be entirely arbitrary and only really applied to one region.
    If I was making a distinction, I'd base it on non-government versus government action. Brussels - individual without direct government backing: terrorism. Hamas attacks in Israel, well Hamas is the government, so not terrorism - more an act of war (and a war crime, of course, through deliberate targetting of civilians). Israel certainly seem to be treating it as an act of war, rather than a terrorist attack - terrorism you go after the perpetrators; war you attack the aggressor government/country.

    You get into grey areas with the Russian poisonings, though I'd also say not terrorism as state sponsored and very targeted at individuals (I'd also say with terrorism the point is general terror, so no particular targeting beyond a general group, perhaps - Munich attacks were terrorism as the attack was effectively on any Israeli athletes, they didn't particularly care who they did or did not kill within that group). 9/11 terrorism despite links with Afghan government of the time - notable that the US did, IIRC, only invade after demanding the handover of Bin-Laden et al, with the implication that if that had happened there would have been no invasion.
    For me the word terrorist trivialises the Hamas attack, which imo was an act of war. Terrorism makes it sound like an isolated incident caused by a couple of lads with kitchen knives or even a bomb. This went far beyond that. Those piling on the BBC have got it wrong.
    On the contrary, those piling on the BBC are not going far enough.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    I live only a few hundred metres from Wattling Street (Old Kent Road/New Cross Road) and can't say I've noticed a dramatic difference in political affiliation on different sides of this ancient thoroughfare... Having said that, this dividing line does look in the right kind of place, between cold England and warm England. North and East vs South and West. There is certainly a difference in culture and outlook between the two, in my experience.
    Yes. I’m sure it’s the Danelaw. Tho it’s fascinating to speculate that Watling Street itself created or even followed some earlier divide.

    There are several anomalies. The nice bits of Essex and Norfolk and most of Suffolk feel very
    south to me. They’re on the wrong side of the tracks
    Reminds me, this house is advertised as being on a ley line*. Surely a new filter they need to add to Rightmove so that you can cut out all the non-magical houses in your search?

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/140205266#

    (* I wonder if there will mention the ley line in the TA6 form?)
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
    Whilst I disagree with Leon about IQ, what it really is and what it means in terms of 'intelligence', he is right about music becoming more simplistic. This is a measured phenomenon which has been commented on greatly over the last few years in terms of the loss of the key change.

    https://musically.com/2022/11/21/has-the-key-change-been-dying-out/

    The reasons are apparently the growth of Hip-Hop and the increasing use of computers.

    I don't see it in terms of degeneracy nor in terms of 'intellgence' whatever that is, but it is not to my taste.

    Worth clicking through to the original research by Chris Dalla Riva.
    There are changes in cultural and artistic norms - I don't think that should come with value judgements about simpler = dumber.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
    Whilst I disagree with Leon about IQ, what it really is and what it means in terms of 'intelligence', he is right about music becoming more simplistic. This is a measured phenomenon which has been commented on greatly over the last few years in terms of the loss of the key change.

    https://musically.com/2022/11/21/has-the-key-change-been-dying-out/

    The reasons are apparently the growth of Hip-Hop and the increasing use of computers.

    I don't see it in terms of degeneracy nor in terms of 'intellgence' whatever that is, but it is not to my taste.

    Worth clicking through to the original research by Chris Dalla Riva.
    The same decline can be seen in lyrics. Less complexity, more vulgarity. It has been mathematically analysed. And yes of course it is down to intelligence
    Why so ?
    The music market, and the context in which music is consumed, have changed so much in the last few decades that it's more likely a function of external conditions than it is any particular change in general intelligence.

    You're just another correlation/causation guy.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
    Whilst I disagree with Leon about IQ, what it really is and what it means in terms of 'intelligence', he is right about music becoming more simplistic. This is a measured phenomenon which has been commented on greatly over the last few years in terms of the loss of the key change.

    https://musically.com/2022/11/21/has-the-key-change-been-dying-out/

    The reasons are apparently the growth of Hip-Hop and the increasing use of computers.

    I don't see it in terms of degeneracy nor in terms of 'intellgence' whatever that is, but it is not to my taste.

    Worth clicking through to the original research by Chris Dalla Riva.
    The same decline can be seen in lyrics. Less complexity, more vulgarity. It has been mathematically analysed. And yes of course it is down to intelligence
    Rick Beato has done good work on analysing this. And no, he does not dismiss more modern music out of hand just because it's new.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
    lol. I’m sorry the truth hurts

    You can also see the decline in IQ in American SAT scores. They are really plunging quite fast now (and the earlier rise concurs with the born-in-1975-as-peak theory)

    See here


    Every generation decries the music of the next - even waltz dancing and music was considered unseemly when it first came it.

    And educational outcomes dropped after the 60s, then were steady and dropped again in 2016 - I am sure these are definitely trends of "younger people being thicker" and nothing to do with political decisions around how the American education system works... Especially with that first drop happening between Brown and Brown II I'm sure nothing major happened with American schooling at all...
    This is such a predictable, unintelligent response, typical of your generation
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Cyclefree said:

    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    When it comes to the Middle East PB has a blindspot. Bartholomew wants to know why Gaza's Arab neighbours wont take the 2,400,000 Gazans in and let Isreal destroy the place.*

    *I should add that's not Bartholomew's only blind spot.
    Israel destroyed the peace? Did you notice who invaded whom last week Roger? I'd say the blind spots aren't just on the side of those supporting the Israelis.
    @Roger has a complete blind spot about the genocidal aims of Hamas.

    Netanyahu is, I have said before, the worst possible leader for Israel at this time. But even a saint would take action to defend his people from the evil inflicted on them last week and not negotiate with a group explicitly dedicated to the killing of every Jew in the world.

    Anyway, I am on Carlisle and for anyone who has not visited it, they should. Carlisle cathedral alone is worth a visit. A small cathedral but packed with so much to see. The ceiling harks back to the Scrovegni Chapel in Padua.



    That's *really* small.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    theProle said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
    Mate of mine has been touring with Ed Sheeran as a technician recently. Spoke very highly of him, both in terms of him being decent to work for (he's apparently a genuinely nice bloke, and takes in interest in making sure everything is OK for his team), but also as a musician - apparently he's genuinely talented, even if not to everyone's taste.
    Yes, Ed Sheeran is one of those artists it is fashionable to mock because his music is popular. He is a seriously talented musician and songwriter and I like his stuff.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Interesting piece on the growing complexity of what we know of human/Neanderthal interactions.

    Study shows Neanderthals inherited at least 6% of their genome from a now-extinct lineage of early modern humans
    https://phys.org/news/2023-10-neanderthals-inherited-genome-now-extinct-lineage.html
  • theProle said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
    Mate of mine has been touring with Ed Sheeran as a technician recently. Spoke very highly of him, both in terms of him being decent to work for (he's apparently a genuinely nice bloke, and takes in interest in making sure everything is OK for his team), but also as a musician - apparently he's genuinely talented, even if not to everyone's taste.
    Yes, Ed Sheeran is one of those artists it is fashionable to mock because his music is popular. He is a seriously talented musician and songwriter and I like his stuff.
    My understanding is the loop pedal station he uses to build his songs live is very difficult.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    theProle said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
    Mate of mine has been touring with Ed Sheeran as a technician recently. Spoke very highly of him, both in terms of him being decent to work for (he's apparently a genuinely nice bloke, and takes in interest in making sure everything is OK for his team), but also as a musician - apparently he's genuinely talented, even if not to everyone's taste.
    Pleased to hear it. Always nice to hear anyone is genuinely a nice fella. And yes, he's clearly talented. Just the polar opposite of my taste.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Is there also a production divide? I always got the sense (perhaps incorrectly) that the midlands and north were the industrial heartlands and the south east stayed focussed on agricultural production and the place the rich went on holiday during the industrial revolution.

    I'm not saying it couldn't be something more long term like the cultural distinction of Danelaw and such, but still.
    If the red had extended a bit further south we'd be discussing the influence of Wessex and the Roman road from Londinium to Aquae Sulis and whatever Newent was called by the locals at the time (probably the same. as Newent is a British name anyway).

    #thereisaromanroadforeveryoccasion
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    theProle said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
    Mate of mine has been touring with Ed Sheeran as a technician recently. Spoke very highly of him, both in terms of him being decent to work for (he's apparently a genuinely nice bloke, and takes in interest in making sure everything is OK for his team), but also as a musician - apparently he's genuinely talented, even if not to everyone's taste.
    Yes, Ed Sheeran is one of those artists it is fashionable to mock because his music is popular. He is a seriously talented musician and songwriter and I like his stuff.
    I was teasing when I mentioned Sheeran. I do find his voice a bit whiney and his lyrics banal, but the other day I heard a clever, complex reggae cover of one of his songs - and I realised that it is a fundamentally good song. He really can write

    But maybe that’s more evidence for my case. Sheeran writes good songs but plays them as simply as possible for a moronic modern audience
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    theProle said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
    Mate of mine has been touring with Ed Sheeran as a technician recently. Spoke very highly of him, both in terms of him being decent to work for (he's apparently a genuinely nice bloke, and takes in interest in making sure everything is OK for his team), but also as a musician - apparently he's genuinely talented, even if not to everyone's taste.
    Yes, Ed Sheeran is one of those artists it is fashionable to mock because his music is popular. He is a seriously talented musician and songwriter and I like his stuff.
    There’s a huge difference between talented musicisians and songwriters, and the latest industry plant ‘artist’ who will last about 18 months and make almost no money. See also Taylor Swift, who’s sold a million tickets in the US this year, but built off the back of a decade of success, and a genuinely talented musician even if you don’t like her songs.

    Madonna is back on tour as well, and Kylie Minogue is top of the charts again and selling out a Vegas residency - two ladies who aren’t the greatest singers in the world, but can sure as hell put on a show and have been doing it for decades.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited October 2023
    Sandpit said:

    theProle said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
    Mate of mine has been touring with Ed Sheeran as a technician recently. Spoke very highly of him, both in terms of him being decent to work for (he's apparently a genuinely nice bloke, and takes in interest in making sure everything is OK for his team), but also as a musician - apparently he's genuinely talented, even if not to everyone's taste.
    Yes, Ed Sheeran is one of those artists it is fashionable to mock because his music is popular. He is a seriously talented musician and songwriter and I like his stuff.
    There’s a huge difference between talented musicisians and songwriters, and the latest industry plant ‘artist’ who will last about 18 months and make almost no money. See also Taylor Swift, who’s sold a million tickets in the US this year, but built off the back of a decade of success, and a genuinely talented musician even if you don’t like her songs.

    Madonna is back on tour as well, and Kylie Minogue is top of the charts again and selling out a Vegas residency - two ladies who aren’t the greatest singers in the world, but can sure as hell put on a show and have been doing it for decades.
    Its even worse, that it is extremely common now for even talented artists to be told by the industry, no, not that stuff (their own original material), meet with our team of writers, this is what you will be doing....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    edited October 2023
    Sandpit said:

    theProle said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
    Mate of mine has been touring with Ed Sheeran as a technician recently. Spoke very highly of him, both in terms of him being decent to work for (he's apparently a genuinely nice bloke, and takes in interest in making sure everything is OK for his team), but also as a musician - apparently he's genuinely talented, even if not to everyone's taste.
    Yes, Ed Sheeran is one of those artists it is fashionable to mock because his music is popular. He is a seriously talented musician and songwriter and I like his stuff.
    There’s a huge difference between talented musicisians and songwriters, and the latest industry plant ‘artist’ who will last about 18 months and make almost no money. See also Taylor Swift, who’s sold a million tickets in the US this year, but built off the back of a decade of success, and a genuinely talented musician even if you don’t like her songs.

    Madonna is back on tour as well, and Kylie Minogue is top of the charts again and selling out a Vegas residency - two ladies who aren’t the greatest singers in the world, but can sure as hell put on a show and have been doing it for decades.
    Depeche Mode are touring again after a gap of 6 years, and 42 years after they first hit the charts, I saw them at Twickenham back in June.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    a
    Carnyx said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Is there also a production divide? I always got the sense (perhaps incorrectly) that the midlands and north were the industrial heartlands and the south east stayed focussed on agricultural production and the place the rich went on holiday during the industrial revolution.

    I'm not saying it couldn't be something more long term like the cultural distinction of Danelaw and such, but still.
    If the red had extended a bit further south we'd be discussing the influence of Wessex and the Roman road from Londinium to Aquae Sulis and whatever Newent was called by the locals at the time (probably the same. as Newent is a British name anyway).

    #thereisaromanroadforeveryoccasion
    Could this be one of those things where it links back to the width of a horses arse? (chariots, ruts, railways, space shuttle solid fuel boosters etc)
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
    Whilst I disagree with Leon about IQ, what it really is and what it means in terms of 'intelligence', he is right about music becoming more simplistic. This is a measured phenomenon which has been commented on greatly over the last few years in terms of the loss of the key change.

    https://musically.com/2022/11/21/has-the-key-change-been-dying-out/

    The reasons are apparently the growth of Hip-Hop and the increasing use of computers.

    I don't see it in terms of degeneracy nor in terms of 'intellgence' whatever that is, but it is not to my taste.

    Worth clicking through to the original research by Chris Dalla Riva.
    I'm not sure that the key change is a mark of great music - it's generally just a cheap trick to give a song a bit of a boost if its intrinsic qualities are lacking.
    Music has different functions. If you're looking for something to dance to for six hours you're not going to be interested in lyrical complexity. Technology has democratised music too, but means you don't necessarily need the same depth of talent and musicianship or long apprenticeship to make a record. Lennon and McCartney played many thousands of hours together before they sat down to write a song. I imagine it has also winnowed out the pool of session musicians from whom some of the great songwriters and producers emerged, people like Nile Rodgers or the guys from ABBA.
  • Carnyx said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Superb. England is divided, politically, between Labour-inclined regions and Lib Dem-inclined regions, by a line that follows… Watling Street. The Roman road laid in 47 AD.


    Why, I wonder?
    First instinct here is just chance. There's also a non-trivial correlation between red and yellow and the locations of the coalfields - which clearly was nothing to do with Watling Street and instinctively seems to make more sense.

    But there may be something to it. North of Watling Street we presumably have more Viking ancestry, and, more importantly, a more Viking culture - perhaps collectivism is more part of the northern culture; individualism more part of the southern?
    Is there also a production divide? I always got the sense (perhaps incorrectly) that the midlands and north were the industrial heartlands and the south east stayed focussed on agricultural production and the place the rich went on holiday during the industrial revolution.

    I'm not saying it couldn't be something more long term like the cultural distinction of Danelaw and such, but still.
    If the red had extended a bit further south we'd be discussing the influence of Wessex and the Roman road from Londinium to Aquae Sulis and whatever Newent was called by the locals at the time (probably the same. as Newent is a British name anyway).

    #thereisaromanroadforeveryoccasion
    Ilford's on the Roman Road from London to Stratford to Romford to Colchester.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    theProle said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
    Mate of mine has been touring with Ed Sheeran as a technician recently. Spoke very highly of him, both in terms of him being decent to work for (he's apparently a genuinely nice bloke, and takes in interest in making sure everything is OK for his team), but also as a musician - apparently he's genuinely talented, even if not to everyone's taste.
    Yes, Ed Sheeran is one of those artists it is fashionable to mock because his music is popular. He is a seriously talented musician and songwriter and I like his stuff.
    Ed Sheeran is excellent. He is genuinely one of the greatest artists of the pop era even though he has only been up there for a relatively short while (since 2010 ish A Team).

    The quality of his material and his record sales verify that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Sandpit said:

    "Depending on how many helicopters were present in Berdyansk and Luhansk, we may see the worst single day losses in Russian Air Force history."

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1714184214331994117

    What a terrible shame that would be for the Russian Air Force.
    Hmmm....


  • Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, a really quite striking shift in the reason for byelections.

    Is it that our MPs are now more badly behaved? Or is it that they are better policed?

    Or is it just that MPs are younger, more likely to resign for other opportunities, and in better health?

    I think voters more sympathetic to a party that loses an MP for health reasons than one to misbehavior.

    I think better policed. The ability to actually deal with MPs bad behaviour in away that leads to recall has only existed since 2015. How many of these MPs would have hung on without that?
    Better policed, but at the same time, I think politics attracts worse people than in the past.
    How fondly we all recall the good old days of Moseley, Ramsay, Powell, Boothby, Driberg, Thorpe, Smith, Stonehouse etc.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    theProle said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    You may be interested in 'This is what it sounds like' by Susan Rogers. She's a producer (of records - she has worked with Prince, among others) turned academic; the book is a long essay on why you like the music you do.

    It's a good book, though I think it does miss out on one or two facets which I think are important (lyrical cleverness, for example: I don't feel the need to identify with a singer to enjoy the wordplay).

    FWIW, I loathe Rap, drill and Ed Sheeran (well, Ed Sheeran's music. I'm sure he's a pleasant fella.) But also, I prefer punk to prog; and indie to jazz. I like complexity, but I value authenticity more. And also sheer energy.
    Mate of mine has been touring with Ed Sheeran as a technician recently. Spoke very highly of him, both in terms of him being decent to work for (he's apparently a genuinely nice bloke, and takes in interest in making sure everything is OK for his team), but also as a musician - apparently he's genuinely talented, even if not to everyone's taste.
    Yes, Ed Sheeran is one of those artists it is fashionable to mock because his music is popular. He is a seriously talented musician and songwriter and I like his stuff.
    My understanding is the loop pedal station he uses to build his songs live is very difficult.
    Indeed, although the real innovator there was KT Tunstall.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    You can see the decline in IQ in musical tastes. People with lower IQs prefer more vulgar, simplistic music - less lyrically demanding, louder yet coarser, easier time signatures. Rap, drill, K-pop, Ed Sheeran, etc

    These are now the most popular forms of music. The difference between the sophisticated pop of 1973 and the idiotic non-music of 2023 is not an illusion, it is not just the old denouncing the young as ever twas, it is real. The listeners got dumb

    This is just reactionary nonsense; the equivalent of "blues, jazz and rock and roll show the moral degeneracy of the next generations".
    Whilst I disagree with Leon about IQ, what it really is and what it means in terms of 'intelligence', he is right about music becoming more simplistic. This is a measured phenomenon which has been commented on greatly over the last few years in terms of the loss of the key change.

    https://musically.com/2022/11/21/has-the-key-change-been-dying-out/

    The reasons are apparently the growth of Hip-Hop and the increasing use of computers.

    I don't see it in terms of degeneracy nor in terms of 'intellgence' whatever that is, but it is not to my taste.

    Worth clicking through to the original research by Chris Dalla Riva.
    The same decline can be seen in lyrics. Less complexity, more vulgarity. It has been mathematically analysed. And yes of course it is down to intelligence
    Why so ?
    The music market, and the context in which music is consumed, have changed so much in the last few decades that it's more likely a function of external conditions than it is any particular change in general intelligence.

    You're just another correlation/causation guy.
    At some point you just have to admit I’m right. We have the decline in IQ scores. We have the decline in SAT scores. We have the decline in musical complexity. We have the decline in the complexity of lyrics. We have kids keeping their money in little envelopes so they know what is special money for certain things like Victorian retards. On and on. I’m right

    All you have is bluster and “no this can’t be the case”
This discussion has been closed.