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How death and ill health have ceased to be the main causes of by-elections – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,117
edited October 2023 in General
imageHow death and ill health have ceased to be the main causes of by-elections – politicalbetting.com

This parliament we have seen a huge change in how Westminster by-elections are triggered.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • First like Labour
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,204
    First.

    Like the grim reaper will soon be...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,204
    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026
    Because of the recalls
  • Leon said:

    I'll go further than that

    I get the sense the West has entirely wearied of this issue. Israel/Palestine. There are sympathies both ways, and for myriad reasons, but now the overwhelming sense is one of enervated despair to the point of nihilism. Why should Swedes in Brussels die because of what happens to a bunch of mad religious nutters in Gaza, Jaffa, the Negev desert and Jerusalem? Why should world peace be held hostage by a few ululating extremists in a tiny sandy corner of the world, for the rest of time?

    C'est tout. Let them duke it out, once and for all. If Israel wipes out Gaza, so be it. If the Arabs overrrun Israel, well, they maybe had it coming

    ENOUGH. Just get it sorted

    You mean it's one set of willy-mutilators versus another?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,204

    Charles Lister
    @Charles_Lister
    NEW -- 2,000 U.S. Marines are headed to the coast of #Israel as a "rapid response force," as tensions tick up re. #Gaza & region-wide.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,155

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I don’t see them doing anything directly . The Israelis have many more military’s assets to draw on and getting the USA involved by directly attacking Israel won’t end well for them or us !
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,640
    edited October 2023

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I can't imagine the two* carriers in the med are reducing the tension. If they embolden the Israelis to fight it out on three fronts how many are going to die?

    *soon
  • The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,834

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Netanyahu's got a lot to answer for. If he survives this it will be miracle. He's more responsible for what is happening than anyone. Quite why the Americans have given him their unwavering support is a mystery.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,322
    edited October 2023

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I can't imagine the two* carriers in the med are reducing the tension. If they embolden the Israelis to fight it out on three fronts how many are going to die?

    *soon
    Frankly thats a load of old balls. The Israelis have no want to fight a full on conflict on three fronts, they will do it because they have no choice. In that regard the US presence is designed to help achieve a single front conflict.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,671
    @MikeSmithson , thank you for this. A useful point, and rather a sad one.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,834
    .........now it's libido
  • Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Netanyahu's got a lot to answer for. If he survives this it will be miracle. He's more responsible for what is happening than anyone. Quite why the Americans have given him their unwavering support is a mystery.
    Agree with that. Netanyahu's an absolute liability. But I strongly suspect the US support is all for show, and Biden's already given him the option of the revolver and bottle of whisky.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,640
    edited October 2023
    Yokes said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I can't imagine the two* carriers in the med are reducing the tension. If they embolden the Israelis to fight it out on three fronts how many are going to die?

    *soon
    Frankly thats a load of old balls. The Israelis have no want to fight a full on conflict on three fronts, they will do it because they have no choice. In that regard the US presence is designed to help achieve a single front conflict.

    If the ships and marines weren't there surely it would be more pressing for Israel's to avoid war with the groups in Lebanon and Syria. As they are why wouldn't the IDF be wiling to be that little bit more aggressive?

    The Americans are distorting the dynamics, and with the language coming from Netanyahu he would be a fool not to take advantage of this.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,155
    The 9/11 terrorists attacks allowed to happen due to intelligence failures which subsequently lead to a disastrous invasion of Iraq and the subsequent formation of ISIS .

    Israeli intelligence failures allowed terrorist attacks and then because of that a Gaza invasion and possible meltdown in the Middle East .

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,834

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    When it comes to the Middle East PB has a blindspot. Bartholomew wants to know why Gaza's Arab neighbours wont take the 2,400,000 Gazans in and let Isreal destroy the place.*

    *I should add that's not Bartholomew's only blind spot.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,322

    Yokes said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I can't imagine the two* carriers in the med are reducing the tension. If they embolden the Israelis to fight it out on three fronts how many are going to die?

    *soon
    Frankly thats a load of old balls. The Israelis have no want to fight a full on conflict on three fronts, they will do it because they have no choice. In that regard the US presence is designed to help achieve a single front conflict.

    If the ships and marines weren't there surely it would be more pressing for Israel's to avoid war with the groups in Lebanon and Syria. As they are why wouldn't the IDF be wiling to be that little bit more aggressive?

    The Americans are distorting the dynamics, and with the language coming from Netanyahu he would be a fool not to take advantage of this.

    1. Netanyahu isnt running this on his own anymore. He directs nothing alone, he is not the almighty.
    2. Military logic is that you do not disperse your forces, there isnt a single person of proper senior military background in the unity government nor in the miltary hierachy that doesnt get that
    3. If you pay attention to what the Israelis themselves are saying they dont want to have to launch a full scale assault on three fronts, or even two. There is no appetite for it, thats why pretty much no one of note is suggesting it in the country. They will quite happily sustain the current low level long range shooting match with Hizbollah and the other militias providing it stays that way.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026
    nico679 said:

    The 9/11 terrorists attacks allowed to happen due to intelligence failures which subsequently lead to a disastrous invasion of Iraq and the subsequent formation of ISIS .

    Israeli intelligence failures allowed terrorist attacks and then because of that a Gaza invasion and possible meltdown in the Middle East .

    ISIS would probably have emerged in Syria against Assad anyway and have largely been defeated now with Saddam removed from power.

    Hamas' goal is the destruction of Israel, the security forces could only ever contain them not destroy them as the IDF will now try and do
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Netanyahu's got a lot to answer for. If he survives this it will be miracle. He's more responsible for what is happening than anyone. Quite why the Americans have given him their unwavering support is a mystery.
    Agree with that. Netanyahu's an absolute liability. But I strongly suspect the US support is all for show, and Biden's already given him the option of the revolver and bottle of whisky.
    Biden doesn't have much choice, any US President seen as weak on support for Israel wouldn't survive long
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,023
    edited October 2023
    "Der Spiegel: What is the situation like for Jews in Neukölln these days?

    Balci: I would not advise anybody to make their Jewish faith visible in Neukölln."

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/muslim-anti-semitism-in-berlin-wide-swaths-of-arab-speaking-population-harbor-sympathies-for-terrorists-a-f7c73040-7be1-4509-9150-810266818f49

    "Güner Balci is the integration commissioner for the Neukölln district of Berlin."
  • Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    When it comes to the Middle East PB has a blindspot. Bartholomew wants to know why Gaza's Arab neighbours wont take the 2,400,000 Gazans in and let Isreal destroy the place.*

    *I should add that's not Bartholomew's only blind spot.
    I quite like Bart as a poster and I know what he's trying to do: devise grand solutions from 'libertarian' 'first principles'. But it's sixth-form balloon-debate stuff I'm afraid.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,640
    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I can't imagine the two* carriers in the med are reducing the tension. If they embolden the Israelis to fight it out on three fronts how many are going to die?

    *soon
    Frankly thats a load of old balls. The Israelis have no want to fight a full on conflict on three fronts, they will do it because they have no choice. In that regard the US presence is designed to help achieve a single front conflict.

    If the ships and marines weren't there surely it would be more pressing for Israel's to avoid war with the groups in Lebanon and Syria. As they are why wouldn't the IDF be wiling to be that little bit more aggressive?

    The Americans are distorting the dynamics, and with the language coming from Netanyahu he would be a fool not to take advantage of this.

    1. Netanyahu isnt running this on his own anymore. He directs nothing alone, he is not the almighty.
    2. Military logic is that you do not disperse your forces, there isnt a single person of proper senior military background in the unity government nor in the miltary hierachy that doesnt get that
    3. If you pay attention to what the Israelis themselves are saying they dont want to have to launch a full scale assault on three fronts, or even two. There is no appetite for it, thats why pretty much no one of note is suggesting it in the country. They will quite happily sustain the current low level long range shooting match with Hizbollah and the other militias providing it stays that way.

    I think I understand your points. Although the Israelis are pushing a little. They are striking in Syria and Lebanon. The numbers dying on the northern border are increasing and the rhetoric is scaling with it.

    What do you think would happen if Hezbollah got lucky with its anti-ship missiles and removed an American vessel?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,513
    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    When it comes to the Middle East PB has a blindspot. Bartholomew wants to know why Gaza's Arab neighbours wont take the 2,400,000 Gazans in and let Isreal destroy the place.*

    *I should add that's not Bartholomew's only blind spot.
    Israel destroyed the peace? Did you notice who invaded whom last week Roger? I'd say the blind spots aren't just on the side of those supporting the Israelis.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,089

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    Maybe Hamas were seeking martyrdom.

    Other than that, I cannot see how they gain from this.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,322

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I can't imagine the two* carriers in the med are reducing the tension. If they embolden the Israelis to fight it out on three fronts how many are going to die?

    *soon
    Frankly thats a load of old balls. The Israelis have no want to fight a full on conflict on three fronts, they will do it because they have no choice. In that regard the US presence is designed to help achieve a single front conflict.

    If the ships and marines weren't there surely it would be more pressing for Israel's to avoid war with the groups in Lebanon and Syria. As they are why wouldn't the IDF be wiling to be that little bit more aggressive?

    The Americans are distorting the dynamics, and with the language coming from Netanyahu he would be a fool not to take advantage of this.

    1. Netanyahu isnt running this on his own anymore. He directs nothing alone, he is not the almighty.
    2. Military logic is that you do not disperse your forces, there isnt a single person of proper senior military background in the unity government nor in the miltary hierachy that doesnt get that
    3. If you pay attention to what the Israelis themselves are saying they dont want to have to launch a full scale assault on three fronts, or even two. There is no appetite for it, thats why pretty much no one of note is suggesting it in the country. They will quite happily sustain the current low level long range shooting match with Hizbollah and the other militias providing it stays that way.

    I think I understand your points. Although the Israelis are pushing a little. They are striking in Syria and Lebanon. The numbers dying on the northern border are increasing and the rhetoric is scaling with it.

    What do you think would happen if Hezbollah got lucky with its anti-ship missiles and removed an American vessel?
    Israel is striking Hizbollah and other militia positions on the border areas as seen on risk or initial fire inbound. Its designed to keep Hizbollah on the back foot just as Hizbollah and other milita actions are currently designed to do the same to the Israelis. None of these lobbing actions are large in scale, yet. The Israelis would prefer no action there and I'm not sure yet how keen a lot of the Hizbollah hierachy are. They remember 2006 all too well so its less likely they are not roaring keen, even if they do decide to push a bigger conflict.



  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,198
    It would be ironic if the US ends up backing Iraq and the Taliban against Iran.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,834
    edited October 2023
    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    When it comes to the Middle East PB has a blindspot. Bartholomew wants to know why Gaza's Arab neighbours wont take the 2,400,000 Gazans in and let Isreal destroy the place.*

    *I should add that's not Bartholomew's only blind spot.
    Israel destroyed the peace? Did you notice who invaded whom last week Roger? I'd say the blind spots aren't just on the side of those supporting the Israelis.
    If you keep a population ieffectively imprisoned for 17 years with no possibility of bettering their circumstances eventually they will feel they have nothing to lose. They are no less human beings than the Israelis. To use an Arab expression 'If you beat a dog for long enough it'll bite you'
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,322
    8 hours on, Blinken is still reportedly talking to members of the Israeli cabinet.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,655
    edited October 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Netanyahu's got a lot to answer for. If he survives this it will be miracle. He's more responsible for what is happening than anyone. Quite why the Americans have given him their unwavering support is a mystery.
    Agree with that. Netanyahu's an absolute liability. But I strongly suspect the US support is all for show, and Biden's already given him the option of the revolver and bottle of whisky.
    Biden doesn't have much choice, any US President seen as weak on support for Israel wouldn't survive long
    Nonsense. Biden doesn't have to worry about the Book-of-Revelation evangelist nutters: they're wholly the GOP's problem. Anyway, it's what goes on behind the scenes that's important. As we speak, Biden will be instructing Bibi to rein it in.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,994
    nico679 said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I don’t see them doing anything directly . The Israelis have many more military’s assets to draw on and getting the USA involved by directly attacking Israel won’t end well for them or us !
    The message is less about Iran's immediate intentions, but about Saudi Arabia's, Egypt's and Jordan's.

    Iran can say that they are providing weapons and other indirect support. Can those other countries say the same?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,994

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Netanyahu's got a lot to answer for. If he survives this it will be miracle. He's more responsible for what is happening than anyone. Quite why the Americans have given him their unwavering support is a mystery.
    Agree with that. Netanyahu's an absolute liability. But I strongly suspect the US support is all for show, and Biden's already given him the option of the revolver and bottle of whisky.
    Biden doesn't have much choice, any US President seen as weak on support for Israel wouldn't survive long
    Nonsense. Biden doesn't have to worry about the Book-of-Revelation evangelist nutters: they're wholly the GOP's problem. Anyway, it's what goes on behind the scenes that's important. As we speak, Biden will be instructing Bibi to rein it in.
    I don't know about that, but he might be reminding the Israelis that it's easier to invade Gaza then it will be to pull out later, after who knows how many IDF casualties.

    Do they have a clear objective and a clear set of steps to achieve that objective?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,671
    Sean_F said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    Maybe Hamas were seeking martyrdom.

    Other than that, I cannot see how they gain from this.
    i) Retain their position in Gaza as the supreme representative of the Gazan people
    ii) Unite anti-Israeli forces in the region against Israel
    iii) Disrupt the Israeli rapprochment with other countries (eg Saudi Arabia)

    So far, three for three. The fact that this is killing quite a lot of Gazan people does not matter to Hamas.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,834
    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    When it comes to the Middle East PB has a blindspot. Bartholomew wants to know why Gaza's Arab neighbours wont take the 2,400,000 Gazans in and let Isreal destroy the place.*

    *I should add that's not Bartholomew's only blind spot.
    Israel destroyed the peace? Did you notice who invaded whom last week Roger? I'd say the blind spots aren't just on the side of those supporting the Israelis.
    You might like this Bafta winning film called 'The Present' which gives you an idea of the indignities suffered on a daily basis by those living in Gaza. It's a very good short film of about half an hour. It's the first one here

    https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/five-films-to-watch-from-netflix-s-palestinian-stories-collection-50918
  • Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    When it comes to the Middle East PB has a blindspot. Bartholomew wants to know why Gaza's Arab neighbours wont take the 2,400,000 Gazans in and let Isreal destroy the place.*

    *I should add that's not Bartholomew's only blind spot.
    Israel destroyed the peace? Did you notice who invaded whom last week Roger? I'd say the blind spots aren't just on the side of those supporting the Israelis.
    Certainly a blind spot that misreads place as peace..
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,834
    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    Maybe Hamas were seeking martyrdom.

    Other than that, I cannot see how they gain from this.
    i) Retain their position in Gaza as the supreme representative of the Gazan people
    ii) Unite anti-Israeli forces in the region against Israel
    iii) Disrupt the Israeli rapprochment with other countries (eg Saudi Arabia)

    So far, three for three. The fact that this is killing quite a lot of Gazan people does not matter to Hamas.
    You think Gazans are different from you or I and don't mind losing their children or their parents? Some of the people posting on here are really too much.
  • viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    Maybe Hamas were seeking martyrdom.

    Other than that, I cannot see how they gain from this.
    i) Retain their position in Gaza as the supreme representative of the Gazan people
    ii) Unite anti-Israeli forces in the region against Israel
    iii) Disrupt the Israeli rapprochment with other countries (eg Saudi Arabia)

    So far, three for three. The fact that this is killing quite a lot of Gazan people does not matter to Hamas.
    And Iran's belligerence is no coincidence: Hamas and Iran will have been working hand in glove. So if the US instructs Netanyahu to row back - as I'm sure they will; the US aren't looking for WW3 - then Hamas will claim this as a victory like no other. What a disaster!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,089
    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    Maybe Hamas were seeking martyrdom.

    Other than that, I cannot see how they gain from this.
    i) Retain their position in Gaza as the supreme representative of the Gazan people
    ii) Unite anti-Israeli forces in the region against Israel
    iii) Disrupt the Israeli rapprochment with other countries (eg Saudi Arabia)

    So far, three for three. The fact that this is killing quite a lot of Gazan people does not matter to Hamas.
    As against which it will suffer massive military losses, strengthen support for Israel among Western nations, and after an interval, the Israel-Saudi rapprochement will go ahead.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,023
    edited October 2023
    Andrew Bridgen MP has accused Crispin Blunt MP of slapping him on the back of the head, (in the atrium of Portcullis House).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-67129290
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,705

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    He sounds like those brave warriors against woke: if we do not take a stand against pronouns today, tomorrow the whole of Western civilization will be on the line.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,671
    Roger said:

    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    Maybe Hamas were seeking martyrdom.

    Other than that, I cannot see how they gain from this.
    i) Retain their position in Gaza as the supreme representative of the Gazan people
    ii) Unite anti-Israeli forces in the region against Israel
    iii) Disrupt the Israeli rapprochment with other countries (eg Saudi Arabia)

    So far, three for three. The fact that this is killing quite a lot of Gazan people does not matter to Hamas.
    You think Gazans are different from you or I and don't mind losing their children or their parents? Some of the people posting on here are really too much.
    I don't see how you conclude that from what I said. Hamas is an entity distinct from the people in Gaza (obviously). I was asked what "they" (Hamas) gained from this. I answered the question. I was not asked about the people of Gaza.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,198
    rcs1000 said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    He sounds like those brave warriors against woke: if we do not take a stand against pronouns today, tomorrow the whole of Western civilization will be on the line.
    If you conjugate this then your children will be next.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,671
    Sean_F said:

    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    Maybe Hamas were seeking martyrdom.

    Other than that, I cannot see how they gain from this.
    i) Retain their position in Gaza as the supreme representative of the Gazan people
    ii) Unite anti-Israeli forces in the region against Israel
    iii) Disrupt the Israeli rapprochment with other countries (eg Saudi Arabia)

    So far, three for three. The fact that this is killing quite a lot of Gazan people does not matter to Hamas.
    As against which it will suffer massive military losses, strengthen support for Israel among Western nations, and after an interval, the Israel-Saudi rapprochement will go ahead.
    That is to discuss what will happen to Hamas in the future. But at the moment, Hamas is achieving its strategic goals. Hence @Stark_Dawning's belief that he is correct.

  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,322
    Blinken has reportedly finished his very long meeting with Israeli govt. Assuming he is on a plane shortly, that is possibly your indicator of a larger shooting match about to begin.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,322
    edited October 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    He sounds like those brave warriors against woke: if we do not take a stand against pronouns today, tomorrow the whole of Western civilization will be on the line.
    If you conjugate this then your children will be next.
    An insomniac pedant writes...
    Conjugation refers to inflected verbs, and therefore, in English at least, the pronouns are irrelevant.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,322
    Andy_JS said:

    Andrew Bridgen MP has accused Crispin Blunt MP of slapping him on the back of the head, (in the atrium of Portcullis House).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-67129290

    Party of law and order.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,198
    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    He sounds like those brave warriors against woke: if we do not take a stand against pronouns today, tomorrow the whole of Western civilization will be on the line.
    If you conjugate this then your children will be next.
    An insomniac pedant writes...
    Conjugation refers to inflected verbs, and therefore, in English at least, the pronouns are irrelevant.
    Not if you decide you want a plural pronoun. ;)
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,322
    Well now, apparently Biden is due in Israel on Wednesday.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,322

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    He sounds like those brave warriors against woke: if we do not take a stand against pronouns today, tomorrow the whole of Western civilization will be on the line.
    If you conjugate this then your children will be next.
    An insomniac pedant writes...
    Conjugation refers to inflected verbs, and therefore, in English at least, the pronouns are irrelevant.
    Not if you decide you want a plural pronoun. ;)
    Fair point. Well made. I withdraw to bed. It's late.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,353
    edited October 2023
    I think BBC have a bit of a problem with BBC Arabic understanding of impartially...as fake as BBC Verify presenters CV...

    A BBC programme has raised questions about whether the Hamas massacre at Kfar Aza kibbutz had really taken place.

    Trending, a programme on BBC Arabic, suggested there were different versions of the story and that even Jeremy Bowen, the corporation’s Middle East editor who went to the scene, was simply repeating what he had been told by Israeli forces.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/16/bbc-programme-questions-hamas-massacre/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,353
    edited October 2023
    Yokes said:

    Well now, apparently Biden is due in Israel on Wednesday.

    This might seem really daft, but the sign posting of his arrival, is that not a bit of a security risk, given there are lots of Islamists firing off rockets morning, noon and night.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,787

    Yokes said:

    Well now, apparently Biden is due in Israel on Wednesday.

    This might seem really daft, but the sign posting of his arrival, is that not a bit of a security risk, given there are lots of Islamists firing off rockets morning, noon and night.
    Hmm he's not going to be doing an East Jerusalem meet & greet !
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,023
    Sub-optimal for the Tories.

    "UK prisons plan ‘will see violent inmates released this week’" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-prisons-plan-system-government-crisis-x8btq933f
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 685
    After last nights events in Belgium, the authorities in France must be concerned about this weekends RWC semi-finals in Paris. Paris already has a large radicalised muslim community who may see this as an opportunity to stage a high profile event - especially as one of the participants is arguably to blame for the whole situation (I dont mean the RFU).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,023
    One of the most interesting articles I've read recently.

    "The happy dysfunction of Dover
    Americans will never create communities like the British
    By Chris Arnade"

    https://unherd.com/2023/10/the-happy-dysfunction-of-dover/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,153
    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    When it comes to the Middle East PB has a blindspot. Bartholomew wants to know why Gaza's Arab neighbours wont take the 2,400,000 Gazans in and let Isreal destroy the place.*

    *I should add that's not Bartholomew's only blind spot.
    As has been said before, Turkey - and even Lebanon - have taken in many more Syrian refugees whilst Assad destroys his country.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,023
    "The Secretary General of the Anglican Communion, Bishop Anthony Poggo, has called on Anglicans around the world to join a global ecumenical day of prayer and fasting tomorrow – Tuesday 17 October – in response to the ongoing conflict in the Holy Land."

    https://www.anglicancommunion.org/communications/press-and-media/press-releases/anglican-communion-secretary-general-echoes-jerusalem-church-leaders’-call-for-global-day-of-prayer-and-fasting-in-response-to-israel-hamas-conflict.aspx
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,901

    Yokes said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I can't imagine the two* carriers in the med are reducing the tension. If they embolden the Israelis to fight it out on three fronts how many are going to die?

    *soon
    Frankly thats a load of old balls. The Israelis have no want to fight a full on conflict on three fronts, they will do it because they have no choice. In that regard the US presence is designed to help achieve a single front conflict.

    If the ships and marines weren't there surely it would be more pressing for Israel's to avoid war with the groups in Lebanon and Syria. As they are why wouldn't the IDF be wiling to be that little bit more aggressive?

    The Americans are distorting the dynamics, and with the language coming from Netanyahu he would be a fool not to take advantage of this.
    Would you prefer if Iran were left to distort the dynamics all by themselves?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,901

    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    Maybe Hamas were seeking martyrdom.

    Other than that, I cannot see how they gain from this.
    i) Retain their position in Gaza as the supreme representative of the Gazan people
    ii) Unite anti-Israeli forces in the region against Israel
    iii) Disrupt the Israeli rapprochment with other countries (eg Saudi Arabia)

    So far, three for three. The fact that this is killing quite a lot of Gazan people does not matter to Hamas.
    And Iran's belligerence is no coincidence: Hamas and Iran will have been working hand in glove. So if the US instructs Netanyahu to row back - as I'm sure they will; the US aren't looking for WW3 - then Hamas will claim this as a victory like no other. What a disaster!
    Whatever Israel does, it loses?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,901

    It would be ironic if the US ends up backing Iraq and the Taliban against Iran.

    Of course, that's effectively what happened in the 80s.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,153

    Yokes said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I can't imagine the two* carriers in the med are reducing the tension. If they embolden the Israelis to fight it out on three fronts how many are going to die?

    *soon
    Frankly thats a load of old balls. The Israelis have no want to fight a full on conflict on three fronts, they will do it because they have no choice. In that regard the US presence is designed to help achieve a single front conflict.

    If the ships and marines weren't there surely it would be more pressing for Israel's to avoid war with the groups in Lebanon and Syria. As they are why wouldn't the IDF be wiling to be that little bit more aggressive?

    The Americans are distorting the dynamics, and with the language coming from Netanyahu he would be a fool not to take advantage of this.
    Would you prefer if Iran were left to distort the dynamics all by themselves?
    Politics often makes for very strange bedfellows. On one side, you have the west supplying and funding the Afghan mujahideen in the '80s; on the other hand you have some on the left who call Hamas and Hezbollah 'friends' - despite those two organisations having values that are as far from the left's supposed modern ideals as it is possible to get.

    Israel suffered a massive terrorist attack the other week; innocent civilians are still being held by Palestinians. I do wonder what some of the anti-Israel crowd expect Israel to do, given Hamas's avowed aims.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,928
    edited October 2023
    Yokes said:

    Blinken has reportedly finished his very long meeting with Israeli govt. Assuming he is on a plane shortly, that is possibly your indicator of a larger shooting match about to begin.

    Also a reflection of the traditional Democrat dilemma - they hate terrorism and depend on Jewish votes (who split 76%-21%) but know that over-harsh military measures will only increase support for Hamas and want to avoid the Middle East blowing up even more. So I imagine he was trying, probably ineffectually, to restrain Israel to some extent while not exactly prohibiting it from doing anything (which they would probably ignore anyway).

    Of course we'll have to wait for his memoirs to find out.
  • Andy_JS said:

    "The Secretary General of the Anglican Communion, Bishop Anthony Poggo, has called on Anglicans around the world to join a global ecumenical day of prayer and fasting tomorrow – Tuesday 17 October – in response to the ongoing conflict in the Holy Land."

    https://www.anglicancommunion.org/communications/press-and-media/press-releases/anglican-communion-secretary-general-echoes-jerusalem-church-leaders’-call-for-global-day-of-prayer-and-fasting-in-response-to-israel-hamas-conflict.aspx

    Well that is the crisis solved then.
  • Roger said:

    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    When it comes to the Middle East PB has a blindspot. Bartholomew wants to know why Gaza's Arab neighbours wont take the 2,400,000 Gazans in and let Isreal destroy the place.*

    *I should add that's not Bartholomew's only blind spot.
    Israel destroyed the peace? Did you notice who invaded whom last week Roger? I'd say the blind spots aren't just on the side of those supporting the Israelis.
    If you keep a population ieffectively imprisoned for 17 years with no possibility of bettering their circumstances eventually they will feel they have nothing to lose. They are no less human beings than the Israelis. To use an Arab expression 'If you beat a dog for long enough it'll bite you'
    I think some of the atrocities committed by Hamas, Roger, do suggest that Hamas are lesser human beings and not just than the Israelis but all of us.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,153
    Owen Jones appears to be losing it over on Twitter.

    It's all our fault. Again.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,194
    edited October 2023

    Yokes said:

    Well now, apparently Biden is due in Israel on Wednesday.

    This might seem really daft, but the sign posting of his arrival, is that not a bit of a security risk, given there are lots of Islamists firing off rockets morning, noon and night.
    Same reason they told the Russians when he was visiting Kiev.

    The security will be insane, which is easy when you have an aircraft carrier close by and several bases in the area, and everyone knows that there are some targets you just don’t think about taking out, because of the very dramatic consequences of doing so. The advance warning prevents ‘accidents’.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,031
    nico679 said:

    The 9/11 terrorists attacks allowed to happen due to intelligence failures which subsequently lead to a disastrous invasion of Iraq and the subsequent formation of ISIS .

    Israeli intelligence failures allowed terrorist attacks and then because of that a Gaza invasion and possible meltdown in the Middle East .

    Are you saying that we need to be perpetually on guard because otherwise evil men will kill hundreds of innocent civilians?

    And if we are unlucky once (after the kind, peace-loving Anglophile Gerry Adams) then it’s our fault,,,

    You need to check your moral compass, sir!
  • Fishing said:

    Yokes said:

    Blinken has reportedly finished his very long meeting with Israeli govt. Assuming he is on a plane shortly, that is possibly your indicator of a larger shooting match about to begin.

    Also a reflection of the traditional Democrat dilemma - they hate terrorism and depend on Jewish votes (who split 76%-21%) but know that over-harsh military measures will only increase support for Hamas and want to avoid the Middle East blowing up even more. So I imagine he was trying, probably ineffectually, to restrain Israel to some extent while not exactly prohibiting it from doing anything (which they would probably ignore anyway).

    Of course we'll have to wait for his memoirs to find out.
    The Democrat dilemma at the moment is that an increasingly large part of their base - particularly at the grassroots / graduate level - are increasingly anti-Israel / pro-Palestine and that balancing their factions is going to be increasingly difficult. Hence AOC's twists and turns when it comes to condemning the Hamas attacks.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,662
    Would Biden really be going into a war? I don't think so.

    This suggests to me that there may be a much greater delay in the start of any ground offensive than had been thought. Perhaps the Americans have managed to persuade the players in the region to open up the southern border and let a lot of Palestinians leave. This will reduce casualties and also reduce the threat of Gaza to Israel going forward.

    There was talk yesterday from the UN of the Americans taking over the checkpoints on the southern border from the utterly ineffective European force that is there at the moment. Is this what the 2k marines are for? I can't see the Americans taking on such a task unless the forces involved have overwhelming firepower so that they can defend themselves.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,031

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    I can't imagine the two* carriers in the med are reducing the tension. If they embolden the Israelis to fight it out on three fronts how many are going to die?

    *soon
    Frankly thats a load of old balls. The Israelis have no want to fight a full on conflict on three fronts, they will do it because they have no choice. In that regard the US presence is designed to help achieve a single front conflict.

    If the ships and marines weren't there surely it would be more pressing for Israel's to avoid war with the groups in Lebanon and Syria. As they are why wouldn't the IDF be wiling to be that little bit more aggressive?

    The Americans are distorting the dynamics, and with the language coming from Netanyahu he would be a fool not to take advantage of this.

    1. Netanyahu isnt running this on his own anymore. He directs nothing alone, he is not the almighty.
    2. Military logic is that you do not disperse your forces, there isnt a single person of proper senior military background in the unity government nor in the miltary hierachy that doesnt get that
    3. If you pay attention to what the Israelis themselves are saying they dont want to have to launch a full scale assault on three fronts, or even two. There is no appetite for it, thats why pretty much no one of note is suggesting it in the country. They will quite happily sustain the current low level long range shooting match with Hizbollah and the other militias providing it stays that way.

    I think I understand your points. Although the Israelis are pushing a little. They are striking in Syria and Lebanon. The numbers dying on the northern border are increasing and the rhetoric is scaling with it.


    What do you think would happen if Hezbollah got lucky with its anti-ship missiles and removed an American vessel?
    Israel are responding to hezbollah provocations in the North. In a fairly measured manner.

    The US would respond to the loss of a ship, of course they would. But they would be very mindful of the risk of conflagration so it would be a proportionate response.

    Benny Gantz is a able and effective leader who I have a great deal to time for.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,153
    Sandpit said:

    Owen Jones appears to be losing it over on Twitter.

    It's all our fault. Again.

    There’s definitely a certain section of media and academia, who continue to believe that the world’s bad people are the US, the UK, and Israel, and that by extension everyone else is therefore good.

    No, me neither.
    Owen Jones is quite incredibly stupid. He is an openly gay man, who believes in gay rights. The people he supports in Gaza are not exactly known for their support of gay rights. Last night he tried to blame us for this situation; the reality, as the West Bank shows, is rather different.

    "Currently, the Hamas government punishes all men who are convicted of having engaged in homosexual acts with up to 10 years in prison." (1)

    Of course, Owen Jones does not live in Gaza.

    The situation in the West Bank is somewhat better, although:
    "In August 2019, the Palestinian Authority announced that LGBT groups were forbidden to meet in the West Bank on the grounds that they are "harmful to the higher values and ideals of Palestinian society". This was in response to a planned conference in Nablus by Al-Qaws, a Palestinian LGBT group. The ban was later withdrawn by the end of the month following backlash." (1)

    (1): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,031

    Yokes said:

    Well now, apparently Biden is due in Israel on Wednesday.

    This might seem really daft, but the sign posting of his arrival, is that not a bit of a security risk, given there are lots of Islamists firing off rockets morning, noon and night.
    It delays the launch of the Gaza incursion. More time for civilians to escape.

    Yes a risk, but a calculated one. I wonder if that was Blinken’s last card to play in the cabinet meeting?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,729
    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Netanyahu's got a lot to answer for. If he survives this it will be miracle. He's more responsible for what is happening than anyone. Quite why the Americans have given him their unwavering support is a mystery.
    Timing. He’ll be cut loose when it’s all over.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,113

    Owen Jones appears to be losing it over on Twitter.

    It's all our fault. Again.

    I saw his post yesterday blaming the British for the lack of gay rights in Gaza.

    With that, and his unpleasant Sky discussion with Margaret Hodge, he has not had a good conflict so far.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,729

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Netanyahu's got a lot to answer for. If he survives this it will be miracle. He's more responsible for what is happening than anyone. Quite why the Americans have given him their unwavering support is a mystery.
    Agree with that. Netanyahu's an absolute liability. But I strongly suspect the US support is all for show, and Biden's already given him the option of the revolver and bottle of whisky.
    Biden doesn't have much choice, any US President seen as weak on support for Israel wouldn't survive long
    Nonsense. Biden doesn't have to worry about the Book-of-Revelation evangelist nutters: they're wholly the GOP's problem. Anyway, it's what goes on behind the scenes that's important. As we speak, Biden will be instructing Bibi to rein it in.
    I don't know about that, but he might be reminding the Israelis that it's easier to invade Gaza then it will be to pull out later, after who knows how many IDF casualties.

    Do they have a clear objective and a clear set of steps to achieve that objective?
    If that’s the advice that the US is giving them, then it is final and conclusive proof that Americans have no sense of irony….
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269
    In an interview where he continues to argue for the two state solution (probably as far away as it's ever been), former Israeli PM Olmert has some quite interesting things to say.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/16/ehud-olmert-q-a-00121787
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,113
    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Netanyahu's got a lot to answer for. If he survives this it will be miracle. He's more responsible for what is happening than anyone. Quite why the Americans have given him their unwavering support is a mystery.
    Timing. He’ll be cut loose when it’s all over.
    I suspect you are right. He is the right wing, hard man, pledged to keep his nation safe who was asleep at the wheel and his nation suffered its biggest loss of life ever. He cannot come back from this even if he razes the Gaza strip to the ground.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269

    Yokes said:

    Well now, apparently Biden is due in Israel on Wednesday.

    This might seem really daft, but the sign posting of his arrival, is that not a bit of a security risk, given there are lots of Islamists firing off rockets morning, noon and night.
    It delays the launch of the Gaza incursion. More time for civilians to escape.

    Yes a risk, but a calculated one. I wonder if that was Blinken’s last card to play in the cabinet meeting?
    The trip is at Netenyahu's invitation, and the US has said that's not what he's doing.
    Though of course it might tend to have that effect.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/16/joe-biden-visit-israel-00121867
    John Kirby, the National Security Council spokesperson, said there’s no agreement between the U.S. and Israel to halt any ground invasion of Gaza while Biden is in Israel.

    “We are not dictating military terms and operational mandates to the Israeli military,” he told reporters Monday night...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,668
    Good morning, everyone.

    Belgian police have shot a man following a double-shooting/terrorist attack:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67131128
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269
    Taz said:

    Owen Jones appears to be losing it over on Twitter.

    It's all our fault. Again.

    I saw his post yesterday blaming the British for the lack of gay rights in Gaza.

    With that, and his unpleasant Sky discussion with Margaret Hodge, he has not had a good conflict so far.
    He became a recognised pundit very young. That seems to do terrible things to an individual's judgment.
    (See also, Boris - though arguably he was a lost cause from the start.)
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 684
    edited October 2023
    Apologies if already commented on but several people have posted on my twitter feed footage of Dowdon and Shapps whispering and chuckling behind Sunak's back while he was making a statement in the Commons on the Israel -Gaza conflict. Why can't we have grown up government?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Netanyahu's got a lot to answer for. If he survives this it will be miracle. He's more responsible for what is happening than anyone. Quite why the Americans have given him their unwavering support is a mystery.
    Agree with that. Netanyahu's an absolute liability. But I strongly suspect the US support is all for show, and Biden's already given him the option of the revolver and bottle of whisky.
    Biden doesn't have much choice, any US President seen as weak on support for Israel wouldn't survive long
    Nonsense. Biden doesn't have to worry about the Book-of-Revelation evangelist nutters: they're wholly the GOP's problem. Anyway, it's what goes on behind the scenes that's important. As we speak, Biden will be instructing Bibi to rein it in.
    I don't know about that, but he might be reminding the Israelis that it's easier to invade Gaza then it will be to pull out later, after who knows how many IDF casualties.

    Do they have a clear objective and a clear set of steps to achieve that objective?
    If that’s the advice that the US is giving them, then it is final and conclusive proof that Americans have no sense of irony….
    Or an administration that is able to recognise past mistakes ?

    Btw kudos to Politico for making explicit the edit to this story, rather than trying to fake omniscience.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/16/biden-blinken-diplomacy-middle-east-00121829
    ...And in the early hours of Tuesday in Tel Aviv, Blinken announced that the United States and Israel had “agreed to develop a plan that will enable humanitarian aid from donor nations and multinational organizations to reach civilians in Gaza.”

    State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller pointed to that announcement in criticizing this story, which was initially published before the plan was unveiled.

    “While POLITICO was preparing this story, Secretary Blinken was negotiating a plan to begin delivering humanitarian aid to Gaza that built on days of consultations in the region,” Miller said. “He will continue his intensive diplomacy to ensure Israel can defend itself and prevent the conflict from widening, and will let the record speak for itself.”..
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,295
    Good morning everyone!

    I was quite shocked by how old, and indeed feeble, Biden, looked on TV yesterday.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,513

    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Hmm. This is no time for self-aggrandizement, but when I said at the beginning that Hamas had 'played a blinder' in the timing and brutality of its assault on Israel I was roundly abused on PB. In what way is this not turning out exactly as the maniacs of Hamas intended?
    When it comes to the Middle East PB has a blindspot. Bartholomew wants to know why Gaza's Arab neighbours wont take the 2,400,000 Gazans in and let Isreal destroy the place.*

    *I should add that's not Bartholomew's only blind spot.
    Israel destroyed the peace? Did you notice who invaded whom last week Roger? I'd say the blind spots aren't just on the side of those supporting the Israelis.
    Certainly a blind spot that misreads place as peace..
    Yeah, fair point. I blame midnight eyes. Sorry.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,463
    edited October 2023
    Why So Few People Live In This HUGE Area In The Middle Of Spain

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPsa2eoZFH0

    Explains Spain's wheel like population distribution.

    Anyone who thinks Spain's transport infrastructure would be as appropriate in the UK should watch this.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,547
    edited October 2023

    nico679 said:

    The 9/11 terrorists attacks allowed to happen due to intelligence failures which subsequently lead to a disastrous invasion of Iraq and the subsequent formation of ISIS .

    Israeli intelligence failures allowed terrorist attacks and then because of that a Gaza invasion and possible meltdown in the Middle East .

    Are you saying that we need to be perpetually on guard because otherwise evil men will kill hundreds of innocent civilians?

    And if we are unlucky once (after the kind, peace-loving Anglophile Gerry Adams) then it’s our fault,,,

    You need to check your moral compass, sir!
    He's right though, we do need to be perpetually on guard because otherwise evil men will kill hundreds of innocent civilians. It's sad but that's the reality.

    Your alternative is...?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269

    Good morning everyone!

    I was quite shocked by how old, and indeed feeble, Biden, looked on TV yesterday.

    The stress of international crises must be seriously tough at his age.

    It reinforces the questions about a second term - though at the same time he seems to respond to these crises remarkably well.
  • The true picture of A&E waiting times in Wales has been seriously under-reported for a decade, senior doctors have told the BBC.

    The Royal College of Emergency Medicine (RCEM) claims it has established thousands of hours are missed from monthly figures.

    Senior A&E doctors have been raising the issue for months.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67056279

    Round of applause to those PBers who have been pointing out the ineptitude of the Welsh government.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,155

    nico679 said:

    The 9/11 terrorists attacks allowed to happen due to intelligence failures which subsequently lead to a disastrous invasion of Iraq and the subsequent formation of ISIS .

    Israeli intelligence failures allowed terrorist attacks and then because of that a Gaza invasion and possible meltdown in the Middle East .

    Are you saying that we need to be perpetually on guard because otherwise evil men will kill hundreds of innocent civilians?

    And if we are unlucky once (after the kind, peace-loving Anglophile Gerry Adams) then it’s our fault,,,

    You need to check your moral compass, sir!
    How the hell did you get that conclusion from my post .

    In an ideal world there would be no terrorists . The blame is on them for being so evil and conducting those attacks . I was merely making the point that we don’t know what can occur down the line . Did the west expect ISIS to pop up after Iraq ?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,204
    Nigelb said:

    Good morning everyone!

    I was quite shocked by how old, and indeed feeble, Biden, looked on TV yesterday.

    The stress of international crises must be seriously tough at his age.

    It reinforces the questions about a second term - though at the same time he seems to respond to these crises remarkably well.
    There was a piece on NY Times the other day arguing his vast experience of foreign policy issues over decades is now going to be a major bonus and override concerns about his age.

    Whether ordinary US voters will see it that way is another matter.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,385

    The true picture of A&E waiting times in Wales has been seriously under-reported for a decade, senior doctors have told the BBC.

    The Royal College of Emergency Medicine (RCEM) claims it has established thousands of hours are missed from monthly figures.

    Senior A&E doctors have been raising the issue for months.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67056279

    Round of applause to those PBers who have been pointing out the ineptitude of the Welsh government.

    Drake the Snake 🐍
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,204
    No invasion while Biden is visiting Israel Jeremy B tells Radio 4.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,392
    On topic, a really quite striking shift in the reason for byelections.

    Is it that our MPs are now more badly behaved? Or is it that they are better policed?

    Or is it just that MPs are younger, more likely to resign for other opportunities, and in better health?

    I think voters more sympathetic to a party that loses an MP for health reasons than one to misbehavior.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,194

    Good morning everyone!

    I was quite shocked by how old, and indeed feeble, Biden, looked on TV yesterday.

    Irrespective of your views of Joe Biden as a politician, as a human being it really can’t be in his best interests to be still wanting to do this job for more than another five years. He’s clearly in very poor health, which is noticeably deteriorating.

    The Dems really should open up their primary process, and choose someone else.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,385

    Nigelb said:

    Good morning everyone!

    I was quite shocked by how old, and indeed feeble, Biden, looked on TV yesterday.

    The stress of international crises must be seriously tough at his age.

    It reinforces the questions about a second term - though at the same time he seems to respond to these crises remarkably well.
    There was a piece on NY Times the other day arguing his vast experience of foreign policy issues over decades is now going to be a major bonus and override concerns about his age.

    Whether ordinary US voters will see it that way is another matter.
    Going for the poison pill strategy is bold. I half expect him to padlock himself to the Gaza boundary fence.

    Blinken and Biden have a tricky balancing act. Hope they get it right.
  • IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    ·
    30m
    BREAKING: Iran's foreign minister says 'if we do not defend Gaza today, tomorrow we will have to defend against bombs in our own cities'.


    Brace...

    Netanyahu's got a lot to answer for. If he survives this it will be miracle. He's more responsible for what is happening than anyone. Quite why the Americans have given him their unwavering support is a mystery.
    Agree with that. Netanyahu's an absolute liability. But I strongly suspect the US support is all for show, and Biden's already given him the option of the revolver and bottle of whisky.
    Biden doesn't have much choice, any US President seen as weak on support for Israel wouldn't survive long
    Nonsense. Biden doesn't have to worry about the Book-of-Revelation evangelist nutters: they're wholly the GOP's problem. Anyway, it's what goes on behind the scenes that's important. As we speak, Biden will be instructing Bibi to rein it in.
    I don't know about that, but he might be reminding the Israelis that it's easier to invade Gaza then it will be to pull out later, after who knows how many IDF casualties.

    Do they have a clear objective and a clear set of steps to achieve that objective?
    If that’s the advice that the US is giving them, then it is final and conclusive proof that Americans have no sense of irony….
    Or that they have learnt from their many mistakes?

    No. I don't think so either but we have to have hope.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Good morning everyone!

    I was quite shocked by how old, and indeed feeble, Biden, looked on TV yesterday.

    The stress of international crises must be seriously tough at his age.

    It reinforces the questions about a second term - though at the same time he seems to respond to these crises remarkably well.
    There was a piece on NY Times the other day arguing his vast experience of foreign policy issues over decades is now going to be a major bonus and override concerns about his age.

    Whether ordinary US voters will see it that way is another matter.
    I'd agree with that assessment.
    But no one is immortal.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,194
    Foxy said:

    On topic, a really quite striking shift in the reason for byelections.

    Is it that our MPs are now more badly behaved? Or is it that they are better policed?

    Or is it just that MPs are younger, more likely to resign for other opportunities, and in better health?

    I think voters more sympathetic to a party that loses an MP for health reasons than one to misbehavior.

    The MPs are younger, more likely to be ‘political animals’ with little real-world experience, are better-policed to some extent, but also exist in a toxic media and social media environment that can hammer the most minor of stories for weeks on end.
This discussion has been closed.