not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Nobody studied anything last time.
When we are once again the sick man of Europe, the calls to rejoin will be loud enough that politicians can't ignore them, and the fuckwits who "delivered Brexit" will get short shrift
Since we are clearly not "the sick man of Europe" (and such rhetoric in the past was just about lamenting the loss of Empire) the point is moot.
You've never stopped wailing about the Brexit vote since 2016, but you just have to get over it. Soemtimes you win a vote, sometimes you lose. It happens to all of us.
Can somebody suggest the likely timeline for Bone's Commons ban, recall petition, and the likely Wellingborough by-election?
I think the Commons gets a vote on the proposed suspension. I just wonder if Tory MPs decide enough is enough and vote for a reduced suspension below the theshold for a recall. The results of Mid Beds and Tamworth may concentrate minds.
No chance Tory MPs save Bone - the PR consequences would be horrible.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
Terrible. Yet actually I'd put that slightly above the average effort from Steve Bell.
So many of today's political cartoons are stupendously poor, I am tempted to have a go myself. It's only my lack of talent and ambition that holds me back.
I'm sure you could come up with something clever or pointed, Ben. Most of these fellas have mistaken an undoubted ability with a characature (sp?) as an ability with biting political satire.
I've been on Midjourney all afternoon. The images it can produce are stupendous. Mind boggling. I have no doubt it could do better cartoons than most cartoonists. It is almost BENEATH its abilities. Like asking Raphael to do a bit of anime
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
🇮🇷🇵🇸🇱🇧⚔️🇮🇱🏴 Iranian Foreign Minister: It is expected that in the coming hours, the Axis of Resistance or the Islamic Republic of Iran will take any preemptive action against the Zionist entity.
This is it lads, the big one. Time for a group hug. It's been a gas
Balls.
Well yes it is in one way. I have no idea what it is about overly dramatic threatening language out of the middle east and most often zero delivery, but Israel does face strategic dilemma over its Northern border. In short, how involved will Hizbollah and the other Iranian backed militias get on the Syrian and Lebanon interfaces. If a report in the Israeli press is correct, one of the delays on the move into Gaza is a need to bolster its Northern defences. The kind of skirmishing going on at the moment is manageable but they havent cratered three airports in Syria to disrupt Iranian supply chains for nothing. They are concerned about something bigger up North.
The under reported thing here is the Americans. The carrier groups in the Med are well publicised but there is a bigger build up, less visble. A lot of assets beyond the Navy are moving in, a lot, in order to deter or indeed, if rumour is to be believed, act in the event of a true multi-front war.
As I say, balls. Your last paragraph is the answer - Iran won’t instigate a direct confrontation because it wants there to still be an Iran.
Iran isnt talking about its own army, thats why it has proxies who do the work. Irans dilemma isnt about itself, it knows its limits, its about Hizbollah. The Iranians will let Hamas take a kicking, as it has done already, but it won't see Hizbollah beaten down to such a degree that its as good as dead. Hizbollah is its child and does a lot of bidding for Iran and not just in Lebanon.
🇮🇷🇵🇸🇱🇧⚔️🇮🇱🏴 Iranian Foreign Minister: It is expected that in the coming hours, the Axis of Resistance or the Islamic Republic of Iran will take any preemptive action against the Zionist entity.
Everything at the moment in terms of domestic politics is being superceded by events in the Middle East .
The Boner vote will get little coverage . There has been a catalogue of very negative things for the Tories over the last few weeks which might have had more impact especially with those by-elections coming up.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “joint the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
You don't seem to acknowledge that the polling is increasingly shifting to Rejoin. No sign of the British people accepting Brexit at all.
Sure, there are other bigger issues at the moment, between cost of living and the disintegration of public services, but sooner or later it will become a serious topic of discussion.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
Sure it can.
There are plenty of policies - like the death penalty - which would probably garner 51% support in a referendum, but which no political party will touch.
We had a referendum. And while many people regret the result, there are also a remarkable number of those who - while supporting joining the EU in the abstract - have no desire to reopen old wounds.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
Yes the Tories may get more seats with Mordaunt as leader. The issue is they wouldn't get her as leader.
Why on earth does anyone still rate her after her ludicrous and vacuous speech during the party conference? It was an embarrassment.
She carried a sword. She doesn't represent the Badenoch or Braverman wings.
Ah, so she represents the Empty Headed Wing and is the one the male members would like to f***. If only they could.
I see it now.
That line is beneath you - and it is one you have said the likes of before. Saying the *only* reason someone could have support is because of her attractiveness says more about you than her, or them.
I actually rate her, but don't fancy her. Now, if I was to go solely on attractiveness I'd be firmly on team Rayner (*), but I think she's not particularly good, the 'scum' comment being an example.
I'd rather have Mordaunt than Rayner as PM. But preferably neither.
(*) I lived with a lovely redhead for four years.
I could collect all the comments on here from the male members of this forum that show precisely that it was her attractiveness which interested them in her. It was embarrassing seeing it. But not at all unexpected. Though quite interesting seeing how many different ways of saying "phwoar - I fancy her" men could come up with.
(Snip).
Please do collect them, and compare them about comments made about other politicians.
If you think she has 'vacuity of thinking', by all means attack that. Discounting her because you think her only appeal is that men find her attractive is not a valid or attractive argument, and one that says more about you than her.
Sorry, but Cyclefree is right on this. You can argue she’s wrong to generalise in that manner, but it’s not as though there wasn’t plenty of evidence to generalise from.
Most extraordinarily vicious remarks about Scotland a few weeks ago. Not exactly eirenic.
Edit: I mean Ms Mordaunt not Cyclefree! But the change of tone was dramatic. As if she was trying to outcompete someone else.
Vicious? Really? Didn't see that. She certainly enjoys winding up the SNP at Westminster though.
Penny is a great Commons performer, witty, forceful and able to command an audience. Its a pity she is so useless outside. She could be a very effective LOTO.
You think ?
I’m afraid I share Cyclefree’s assessment; she’s content free. That conference speech was embarrassing to watch.
I think you're both right. She has presence but she's vacuous.
Everything at the moment in terms of domestic politics is being superceded by events in the Middle East .
The Boner vote will get little coverage . There has been a catalogue of very negative things for the Tories over the last few weeks which might have had more impact especially with those by-elections coming up.
Losing another moron like Bone from an eminently winnable seat before the impending apocalypse looks a step forward for the Tories to me. They have tolerated the brain dead for too long.
Terrible. Yet actually I'd put that slightly above the average effort from Steve Bell.
So many of today's political cartoons are stupendously poor, I am tempted to have a go myself. It's only my lack of talent and ambition that holds me back.
You shouldn't let lack of talent stop you; it certainly hasn't stopped most of our politicians.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Brexiteers take exactly the opposite lesson.
Vague as possible wins the day
You're drawing the wrong lesson Scott. The lesson is not to run an absolutely terrible campaign focusing largely on how awful the people who you're trying to persuade to vote for you are. cf Australian referendum, Hillary Clinton.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
I think we're destined for a Norway/Switzerland style relationship with the EU and, much as I would have liked us to Remain, I'm ok with that now.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “joint the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
You don't seem to acknowledge that the polling is increasingly shifting to Rejoin. No sign of the British people accepting Brexit at all.
Sure, there are other bigger issues at the moment, between cost of living and the disintegration of public services, but sooner or later it will become a serious topic of discussion.
Yup. And then see my post above. Your 90s nostalgia almost certainly can’t win, just like the 50s nostalgia almost certainly couldn’t. In the latter case, a lot of things fell into place to give it a one off chance of success. Such lightning is unlikely to strike twice.
Terrible. Yet actually I'd put that slightly above the average effort from Steve Bell.
So many of today's political cartoons are stupendously poor, I am tempted to have a go myself. It's only my lack of talent and ambition that holds me back.
I'm sure you could come up with something clever or pointed, Ben. Most of these fellas have mistaken an undoubted ability with a characature (sp?) as an ability with biting political satire.
I've been on Midjourney all afternoon. The images it can produce are stupendous. Mind boggling. I have no doubt it could do better cartoons than most cartoonists. It is almost BENEATH its abilities. Like asking Raphael to do a bit of anime
Yes, that's the ticket. What AI can't do very well yet is humour. So employ people who are actually funny, and get AI to do the rest - rather than employing people who can draw but can't amuse.
Can somebody suggest the likely timeline for Bone's Commons ban, recall petition, and the likely Wellingborough by-election?
I think the Commons gets a vote on the proposed suspension. I just wonder if Tory MPs decide enough is enough and vote for a reduced suspension below the theshold for a recall. The results of Mid Beds and Tamworth may concentrate minds.
The lesson from Tamworth is that Johnson might still be PM if he hadn't tried to find a way out for a disgraced MP. Surely Sunak wouldn't dare to try to repeat the trick and try and find a way out for Bone?
And anyway, some Tory MPs who have all but given up on their own seats might be quite interested in jumping ship to stand in Wellingborough to try and retake it at the GE after a by-election loss. Sacrificing Bone could open up an opportunity for one of them.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
Agreed. Also let's not have any future referendums that make constitutional (including Rejoin if that ever comes to pass) without requiring 50% of the electorate to have voted for it.
Can somebody suggest the likely timeline for Bone's Commons ban, recall petition, and the likely Wellingborough by-election?
I think the Commons gets a vote on the proposed suspension. I just wonder if Tory MPs decide enough is enough and vote for a reduced suspension below the theshold for a recall. The results of Mid Beds and Tamworth may concentrate minds.
No chance Tory MPs save Bone - the PR consequences would be horrible.
I don't mean to be rude - and if we can't discuss the physcial appearances of female MPs, we probably shouldn't with male MPs either - but sod it, I'm going to anyway: Peter Bone is a dead ringer for C Montgomery Burns.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
Farage did get somewhere. We left.
I thought you would have noticed...
No, see my later post. Very unlikely circumstances, even more unlikely to happen again.
Everything at the moment in terms of domestic politics is being superceded by events in the Middle East .
The Boner vote will get little coverage . There has been a catalogue of very negative things for the Tories over the last few weeks which might have had more impact especially with those by-elections coming up.
Losing another moron like Bone from an eminently winnable seat before the impending apocalypse looks a step forward for the Tories to me. They have tolerated the brain dead for too long.
Just checking, what sort of size do you think the non moron, non brain dead Tory cohort is? Once you cut to the Bone..
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
I think we're destined for a Norway/Switzerland style relationship with the EU and, much as I would have liked us to Remain, I'm ok with that now.
Yep. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67105143 This is the future. Germany has lost over £8bn of exports to the UK and wants them back. Sunak will probably try to beat SKS to the punch with a deal like this. Otherwise SKS will do it anyway.
Can somebody suggest the likely timeline for Bone's Commons ban, recall petition, and the likely Wellingborough by-election?
I think the Commons gets a vote on the proposed suspension. I just wonder if Tory MPs decide enough is enough and vote for a reduced suspension below the theshold for a recall. The results of Mid Beds and Tamworth may concentrate minds.
The lesson from Tamworth is that Johnson might still be PM if he hadn't tried to find a way out for a disgraced MP. Surely Sunak wouldn't dare to try to repeat the trick and try and find a way out for Bone?
And anyway, some Tory MPs who have all but given up on their own seats might be quite interested in jumping ship to stand in Wellingborough to try and retake it at the GE after a by-election loss. Sacrificing Bone could open up an opportunity for one of them.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
This seemed pretty explicit.
Scots don't seem that bothered, the SNP are polling now worse than they were in 2014 despite Brexit.
Indeed arguably voting to leave the UK to become a mere region of the EU again isn't real independence at all. Jim Sillars certainly thinks so
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
I think we're destined for a Norway/Switzerland style relationship with the EU and, much as I would have liked us to Remain, I'm ok with that now.
Yup. I think more Swiss than Norway, due to size and us having different enough wants/needs to make non-EU trade deals sensible. But in time the European Political Community thing will grow and we won’t be alone. Macron had vision on that.
What the rejoin polling does do is gives politicians cover to move closer into the EU orbit.
I think the concept of rejoining as a full member is still highly unlikely in the medium term.
But - and it is a big but - if the EU introduces the two or three speed membership that has been talked about, I think it is entirely plausible that the UK ends up as a looser associate member, depending on what that membership entails.
Remember that what were EU red lines could easily disappear in the next 10-20 years. The EU has been spooked by war on its borders, and it sees the benefit of bringing more nations under its umbrella for collective security and as a counterweight to a revanchist Russia. It is entirely plausible in a new world that previous shibboleths like freedom of movement might become slightly more negotiatable.
Can somebody suggest the likely timeline for Bone's Commons ban, recall petition, and the likely Wellingborough by-election?
I think the Commons gets a vote on the proposed suspension. I just wonder if Tory MPs decide enough is enough and vote for a reduced suspension below the theshold for a recall. The results of Mid Beds and Tamworth may concentrate minds.
The lesson from Tamworth is that Johnson might still be PM if he hadn't tried to find a way out for a disgraced MP. Surely Sunak wouldn't dare to try to repeat the trick and try and find a way out for Bone?
And anyway, some Tory MPs who have all but given up on their own seats might be quite interested in jumping ship to stand in Wellingborough to try and retake it at the GE after a by-election loss. Sacrificing Bone could open up an opportunity for one of them.
Bone sounds like a very nasty individual.
Cameron used to find him a source of humour although the joke was all too often on Bone. Personally, I never found it particularly funny, like a lot of other cartoons.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “joint the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
You don't seem to acknowledge that the polling is increasingly shifting to Rejoin. No sign of the British people accepting Brexit at all.
Sure, there are other bigger issues at the moment, between cost of living and the disintegration of public services, but sooner or later it will become a serious topic of discussion.
Two other observations.
First is the demographics. Brexit was and is largely about the worldview of a very specific generation. And much as they stamp their feet, they're not going to be controlling the national debate forever.
Secondly, and relevant (I think) to this debate is the news of Peter Bone. Part of a pattern- it's not easy to think of a Brexit backing politician whosw reputation has been enhanced over the years since 2016. The thing is cursed.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
Of course, YES produced a 650 page scenario of independence but lost because they couldn’t say how much a first class stamp would cost…
"Allowing low-level offenders to avoid jail and deporting foreign criminals earlier are among government plans aimed at tackling severe overcrowding in prisons in England and Wales.
Figures from earlier this year revealed that 61% of prisons were overcrowded.
The justice secretary is due to set out details of his plan for easing pressure in Parliament on Monday afternoon.
Alex Chalk has already said he wants some offenders to do community work rather than short stints in prison."
Seems sensible to me 'We need to keep people safe – and that means moving away from short-term prison sentences that make hardened criminals rather than rehabilitated offenders. So we need to look again at low-level offenders. Because while the overall reoffending rate is 25 per cent, the rate for people who spend fewer than 12 months in prison is over 50 per cent.
A short stretch of a few months inside isn’t enough time to rehabilitate criminals, but is more than enough to dislocate them from the family, work and home connections that keep them from crime. Too often, offenders routinely turn back to crime as soon as they walk out of the prison gates.
No prison system should further criminalise offenders or trap criminals who might otherwise take the right path in a cycle of criminality through a merry-go-round of short sentences...We choose to lock up the most dangerous criminals for longer and to cut reoffending by stopping the costly spiral of crime.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
This seemed pretty explicit.
And what was the future of Scotland in the EU if everyone had voted YES? It was never even examined. Nothing. No analysis of what the worst case scenario meant: instant expulsion from the EU (and some form of expulsion was a cert, the EU is slow and legalistic in these things, as we have seen)
Both sides lied and waved away massive problems. That must not happen again, for the sake of everyone - in Scotland or the wider UK
I voted Leave but I readily accept this lack of prior scrutiny, in retrospect, was a grave mistake
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
I think we're destined for a Norway/Switzerland style relationship with the EU and, much as I would have liked us to Remain, I'm ok with that now.
Yep. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67105143 This is the future. Germany has lost over £8bn of exports to the UK and wants them back. Sunak will probably try to beat SKS to the punch with a deal like this. Otherwise SKS will do it anyway.
The effect on the balance of trade with Germany has been quite dramatic. Arguably the single market was actually a bad deal for Britain.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “joint the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
You don't seem to acknowledge that the polling is increasingly shifting to Rejoin. No sign of the British people accepting Brexit at all.
Sure, there are other bigger issues at the moment, between cost of living and the disintegration of public services, but sooner or later it will become a serious topic of discussion.
I'm not so sure. Omnisis, Deltapoll, and BMG poll regularly on the subject, and while Rejoin has the lead, it's not a large one in recent polling. It averages about 47/37.
I could see it becoming big if it were plain that the EU were racing ahead economically, and we were failing, but, at present, that does not seem to be the case.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
Agreed. Also let's not have any future referendums that make constitutional (including Rejoin if that ever comes to pass) without requiring 50% of the electorate to have voted for it.
Yup
The Aussies are right to have this 50% plus four (of six) states rule. Really big constitutional changes need MASSIVE majority support, or they cause bitter division for a loooooooong time
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
I think we're destined for a Norway/Switzerland style relationship with the EU and, much as I would have liked us to Remain, I'm ok with that now.
Everything at the moment in terms of domestic politics is being superceded by events in the Middle East .
The Boner vote will get little coverage . There has been a catalogue of very negative things for the Tories over the last few weeks which might have had more impact especially with those by-elections coming up.
Losing another moron like Bone from an eminently winnable seat before the impending apocalypse looks a step forward for the Tories to me. They have tolerated the brain dead for too long.
Just checking, what sort of size do you think the non moron, non brain dead Tory cohort is? Once you cut to the Bone..
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
The only type of referendum I would support is on subjects like changing the voting system. Everything else can be decided by elected representatives.
"Allowing low-level offenders to avoid jail and deporting foreign criminals earlier are among government plans aimed at tackling severe overcrowding in prisons in England and Wales.
Figures from earlier this year revealed that 61% of prisons were overcrowded.
The justice secretary is due to set out details of his plan for easing pressure in Parliament on Monday afternoon.
Alex Chalk has already said he wants some offenders to do community work rather than short stints in prison."
Seems sensible to me 'We need to keep people safe – and that means moving away from short-term prison sentences that make hardened criminals rather than rehabilitated offenders. So we need to look again at low-level offenders. Because while the overall reoffending rate is 25 per cent, the rate for people who spend fewer than 12 months in prison is over 50 per cent.
A short stretch of a few months inside isn’t enough time to rehabilitate criminals, but is more than enough to dislocate them from the family, work and home connections that keep them from crime. Too often, offenders routinely turn back to crime as soon as they walk out of the prison gates.
No prison system should further criminalise offenders or trap criminals who might otherwise take the right path in a cycle of criminality through a merry-go-round of short sentences...We choose to lock up the most dangerous criminals for longer and to cut reoffending by stopping the costly spiral of crime.
This probably isn't what most Tory voters would regard as a good crime policy.
Maybe, maybe not but it was still the right thing to do. Short term sentences minor offenders just see them lose their jobs and become more likely to commit crime again therefore when they get out. They are better off with suspended sentences or community sentences or fines.
Prison should be reserved for those who are a clear danger to the public or property such as murderers, dangerous drivers who kill, serious sexual offenders and burglars and major drug barons
Those who think cartoons should be ignored might want to learn a little about the career of Thomas Nast, who, among other things, had much to do with the defeat of Tammany Hall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nast
Or think about the violent reactions to cartoons about a particular religious leader, just a few years ago.
The New Yorker magazine publishes many cartoons yearly, most having subjects other than politics and religion. But they do, from time to time publish cartoons mocking Christianity and Judaism.
I have four fairly recent yearly collections of their cartoons, with about 300 cartoons in each. You know how many cartoons mock Islam in those four collections?
🇮🇷🇵🇸🇱🇧⚔️🇮🇱🏴 Iranian Foreign Minister: It is expected that in the coming hours, the Axis of Resistance or the Islamic Republic of Iran will take any preemptive action against the Zionist entity.
This is it lads, the big one. Time for a group hug. It's been a gas
The West would be in real trouble if Russia, Iran and China all launched attacks at the same time. Luckily they haven't so far, as we've seen from the timing of Russia / Ukraine.
Can somebody suggest the likely timeline for Bone's Commons ban, recall petition, and the likely Wellingborough by-election?
I think the Commons gets a vote on the proposed suspension. I just wonder if Tory MPs decide enough is enough and vote for a reduced suspension below the theshold for a recall. The results of Mid Beds and Tamworth may concentrate minds.
The lesson from Tamworth is that Johnson might still be PM if he hadn't tried to find a way out for a disgraced MP. Surely Sunak wouldn't dare to try to repeat the trick and try and find a way out for Bone?
And anyway, some Tory MPs who have all but given up on their own seats might be quite interested in jumping ship to stand in Wellingborough to try and retake it at the GE after a by-election loss. Sacrificing Bone could open up an opportunity for one of them.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
Agreed. Also let's not have any future referendums that make constitutional (including Rejoin if that ever comes to pass) without requiring 50% of the electorate to have voted for it.
Yup
The Aussies are right to have this 50% plus four (of six) states rule. Really big constitutional changes need MASSIVE majority support, or they cause bitter division for a loooooooong time
I think it's more that the government has to have a view. They have to have a plan to put to the voters in a referendum.
They would win most seats with Boris Johnson. But he's no longer an MP. Not sure he has to be?
As a left-of-centre pragmatist it's Johnson whom I fear. Everyone else = Labour majority, probable landslide. Penny Mordaunt is getting like Liz Truss Mk II. I mean, she's really a bit ... strange at times. Perhaps most of the time. Holding a phallus doesn't a good PM make.
*This is not an endorsement of Boris Johnson. He's a shit. But he is a shit who reaches parts no other tories can.
I would fear Johnson if he was able to manage those aspects of his character that make it impossible for him to hold high office again.
Essentially, he is completely incapable of being honest to colleagues and, whilst his strained relationship with facts has long been known, it's hard now for colleagues to sustain the fantasy that it can be managed and controlled. In the absence of trust, dysfunctionality is inevitable.
I agree he has charisma, albeit the "good old Boris - he's a laugh" thing is essentially dead (too many people are wise to it). But even if he is still a draw for voters, Tory MPs need to consider if that's sustainable should he ever get high office again.
No, it's over for Johnson. A few decades of newspaper columns, after-dinner speeches, occasional forays into the discourse, and copious extramarital shagging await. But never again those bright, sunlit uplands.
And basically self inflicted. Had it not have been for Paterson, Partygate and Pincher, he could well still be there.
Indeed. And the warning signs were visible well before he ever became PM.He was brought down by flaws in his character that were long-standing, and which he ?sadly? could not change.
I lost by betting against Boris becoming leader. His flaws were obvious, and even mirrored Jeremy Corbyn's.
It's interesting that the three things that brought him down - as mentioned below, Paterson, Partygate and Pincher - all, IIRC, came out *after* he had been seriously ill with Covid. I do wonder if his already-poor judgement had been made even worse in the weeks and months following that. Especially considering the pressure he was under wrt dealing with Covid.
Interesting. I think I'd put it a bit differently. Before 2020, Boris had excellent judgement of one specific thing- how far you can cross the line and get away with it. The unwelcome truth for his enemies that he had spent a lifetime getting away with it.
But, like taking a corner faster than you should, you really need quicksilver instincts to do that successfully. And a combination of the Big C, advancing years and a new baby blurred
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “joint the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
You don't seem to acknowledge that the polling is increasingly shifting to Rejoin. No sign of the British people accepting Brexit at all.
Sure, there are other bigger issues at the moment, between cost of living and the disintegration of public services, but sooner or later it will become a serious topic of discussion.
Two other observations.
First is the demographics. Brexit was and is largely about the worldview of a very specific generation. And much as they stamp their feet, they're not going to be controlling the national debate forever.
Secondly, and relevant (I think) to this debate is the news of Peter Bone. Part of a pattern- it's not easy to think of a Brexit backing politician whosw reputation has been enhanced over the years since 2016. The thing is cursed.
The PM? I think becoming PM enhances one’s reputation beyond being a junior minister.
Farage? Suspect we both dislike him, but he’s for a solid rep as a winner.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
LOL. This is going to change as it becomes obvious the entire EU swings hard right, as it is already doing. And will do with even greater vigour with the upcoming terror assault on all our cities
Given the right is bolstered by fear and division it must be hard for you not to be excited by the prospect of fear and division. You do well to keep this in check.
🇮🇷🇵🇸🇱🇧⚔️🇮🇱🏴 Iranian Foreign Minister: It is expected that in the coming hours, the Axis of Resistance or the Islamic Republic of Iran will take any preemptive action against the Zionist entity.
This is it lads, the big one. Time for a group hug. It's been a gas
The West would be in real trouble if Russia, Iran and China all launched attacks at the same time. Luckily they haven't so far, as we've seen from the timing of Russia / Ukraine.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
I think we're destined for a Norway/Switzerland style relationship with the EU and, much as I would have liked us to Remain, I'm ok with that now.
Both are in the Single Market including freedom of movement. SFAICS gradualism won't do, and essentially you are either in the SM or not. Unicorn talk of access or getting closer to it is just that.
I have always thought that until a better plan emerges (if it ever did) the Norway option is the only rational possibility once the Brexit vote has happened, and the EU continues not to allow derogation from FOM within the SM (which it should but won't.)
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
This seemed pretty explicit.
Scots don't seem that bothered, the SNP are polling now worse than they were in 2014 despite Brexit.
Indeed arguably voting to leave the UK to become a mere region of the EU again isn't real independence at all. Jim Sillars certainly thinks so
Why do you think the opinion of a bloke that funds SLab MSPs and hasn't held an elected position or had a role in the SNP for 32 years matters?
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Cameron was explicit. Before the vote, he said if the vote was to leave, he would trigger A50 straight away. Only he didn't. If he had, it would have had the 2 positive effects of a) killing off any notion of the remainers stopping the process; and b) concentrating the minds of the leavers as to exactly what kind of Brexit they wanted. .
🇮🇷🇵🇸🇱🇧⚔️🇮🇱🏴 Iranian Foreign Minister: It is expected that in the coming hours, the Axis of Resistance or the Islamic Republic of Iran will take any preemptive action against the Zionist entity.
🇮🇷🇵🇸🇱🇧⚔️🇮🇱🏴 Iranian Foreign Minister: It is expected that in the coming hours, the Axis of Resistance or the Islamic Republic of Iran will take any preemptive action against the Zionist entity.
This is it lads, the big one. Time for a group hug. It's been a gas
The West would be in real trouble if Russia, Iran and China all launched attacks at the same time. Luckily they haven't so far, as we've seen from the timing of Russia / Ukraine.
The weak link in that group is China. Not because we wouldn’t be in mighty trouble if it launched a war in Taiwan, but because I remain to be convinced it really wants one.
I think it suits China to make the US/West scared that it might attack Taiwan, but that is used as a cover to divert eyes away from all the other slow influence building it is getting on with elsewhere.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Cameron was explicit. Before the vote, he said if the vote was to leave, he would trigger A50 straight away. Only he didn't. If he had, it would have had the 2 positive effects of a) killing off any notion of the remainers stopping the process; and b) concentrating the minds of the leavers as to exactly what kind of Brexit they wanted. .
c) it would have short-circuited the spectacle of the PM being told “no negotiation without notification”.
Natasha Loder 🐋 @natashaloder · 2h What I don’t understand is how you can be fired for drawing something. If a writer submitted copy that the editor thought was racist then it would either get changed or spiked. You wouldn’t get fired. That is sort of the point of editors.
Can somebody suggest the likely timeline for Bone's Commons ban, recall petition, and the likely Wellingborough by-election?
I think the Commons gets a vote on the proposed suspension. I just wonder if Tory MPs decide enough is enough and vote for a reduced suspension below the theshold for a recall. The results of Mid Beds and Tamworth may concentrate minds.
No chance Tory MPs save Bone - the PR consequences would be horrible.
I don't mean to be rude - and if we can't discuss the physcial appearances of female MPs, we probably shouldn't with male MPs either - but sod it, I'm going to anyway: Peter Bone is a dead ringer for C Montgomery Burns.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
Agreed. Also let's not have any future referendums that make constitutional (including Rejoin if that ever comes to pass) without requiring 50% of the electorate to have voted for it.
Yup
The Aussies are right to have this 50% plus four (of six) states rule. Really big constitutional changes need MASSIVE majority support, or they cause bitter division for a loooooooong time
I think Sweden has it about right on this. For a constitutional change to happen, it has to be passed by parliament twice, with a general election in between..
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
I think we're destined for a Norway/Switzerland style relationship with the EU and, much as I would have liked us to Remain, I'm ok with that now.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
I don’t see “remain” as an option? You’re talking about those who always bang on about Europe and want to join the EU. A very different thing, and not something that would survive a referendum campaign when folk studied the EU they’d be joining and what was involved.
Brexit is as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.
It's only a matter of time.
You really believe that don’t you? My god you’re in for a life of disappointment politically speaking.
The polling cannot be ignored forever. Not by a party wanting to win anyway.
What people like Starmer understand, but you clearly don’t, is that almost by definition a “join the EU” referendum would take so long to negotiate for (assuming the prospect wasn’t vetoed) that the Gvt that introduced it would be in a mid-term lull in popularity, and in any case the reality of joining wouldn’t be popular once folk saw what was required.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
I think we're destined for a Norway/Switzerland style relationship with the EU and, much as I would have liked us to Remain, I'm ok with that now.
Yep. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67105143 This is the future. Germany has lost over £8bn of exports to the UK and wants them back. Sunak will probably try to beat SKS to the punch with a deal like this. Otherwise SKS will do it anyway.
The effect on the balance of trade with Germany has been quite dramatic. Arguably the single market was actually a bad deal for Britain.
A point I have made repeatedly. The SM was a disaster for us and impoverished the country with large and growing deficits.
Of course, it was not the SM that was the flaw, it was the refusal of our political class of both stripes to recognise that membership of the SM was a discipline, a discipline they would never accept. We could have made a success of it but only with much more conservative (small c) policies.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
Agreed. Also let's not have any future referendums that make constitutional (including Rejoin if that ever comes to pass) without requiring 50% of the electorate to have voted for it.
Yup
The Aussies are right to have this 50% plus four (of six) states rule. Really big constitutional changes need MASSIVE majority support, or they cause bitter division for a loooooooong time
I think Sweden has it about right on this. For a constitutional change to happen, it has to be passed by parliament twice, with a general election in between..
Natasha Loder 🐋 @natashaloder · 2h What I don’t understand is how you can be fired for drawing something. If a writer submitted copy that the editor thought was racist then it would either get changed or spiked. You wouldn’t get fired. That is sort of the point of editors.
It is possible that they might get fired if they posted about the Editor on Twitter and said they disagreed….
Natasha Loder 🐋 @natashaloder · 2h What I don’t understand is how you can be fired for drawing something. If a writer submitted copy that the editor thought was racist then it would either get changed or spiked. You wouldn’t get fired. That is sort of the point of editors.
Jacob Magid @JacobMagid 🧵NEW: The Biden administration has privately been pressing Israel in recent days to flush out what its strategy is for the day after it completes its stated goal of eradicating Hamas in the ongoing Gaza war, a US and an Israeli official tell @TimesofIsrael . (1/4)
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his inner circle have indicated to their Biden counterparts that Israel has not yet come up with such a strategy and instead are more focused on the immediate goal of removing Hamas from power in Gaza, the US official says. (2/4)
Ah, the Irish. Great people. But, jeez. If they want to be neutral and contribute nothing to our collective peace and security, fine. But save us the lectures.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
LOL. This is going to change as it becomes obvious the entire EU swings hard right, as it is already doing. And will do with even greater vigour with the upcoming terror assault on all our cities
Given the right is bolstered by fear and division it must be hard for you not to be excited by the prospect of fear and division. You do well to keep this in check.
Eh? It isn't the right which is trying to subdivide us into identity groups to fight one another for our place in the pecking order.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
This seemed pretty explicit.
Scots don't seem that bothered, the SNP are polling now worse than they were in 2014 despite Brexit.
Indeed arguably voting to leave the UK to become a mere region of the EU again isn't real independence at all. Jim Sillars certainly thinks so
Why do you think the opinion of a bloke that funds SLab MSPs and hasn't held an elected position or had a role in the SNP for 32 years matters?
Well, he probably doesn't. But he was Dep Leader, won a famous by-election, was married to the much-loved Margo Macdonald, and by all accounts is close to Salmond. So his views will resonate with some older "long haul" nationalists.
Rejoin is < 30% if EU insists on Euro membership. Even just 45% for Lib Dems.
Conservative voters then massively opposed, Labour voters split down the middle, only a plurality of LDs would indeed back rejoining the EU with the Euro. However then again the Liberals have always been the most pro EU party, from Thorpe to Jenkins and Steel, to Ashdown, Kennedy, Clegg, Swinson and even Davey is still more pro realignment than Starmer and Sunak.
LDs also don't need to care what the working class redwall voters think about them either as they will never vote Liberal anyway, posher Remain voting bluewall seats are more their target
Rejoin is < 30% if EU insists on Euro membership. Even just 45% for Lib Dems.
Conservative voters then massively opposed, Labour voters split down the middle, only a plurality of LDs would indeed back rejoining the EU with the Euro. However then again the Liberals have always been the most pro EU party, from Thorpe to Jenkins and Steel, to Ashdown, Kennedy, Clegg, Swinson and even Davey is still more pro realignment than Starmer and Sunak.
LDs also don't need to care what the working class redwall voters think about them either as they will never vote Liberal anyway, posher bluewall seats are more their target
Ah, but in this context don’t call them “Liberals”. The proper old Liberal Party was deeply sceptical. Were it still around, in numbers, it would be my party.
Well done to all those younger people in Poland for taking back control !
Remarkable turnout in younger people was key to removing the PiS bigots and hate mongers .
This is a great day for Liberal democracies who are under constant attack from the right wing who seek to peddle hate and division and try and trash democracy .
And a warm welcome back to Donald Tusk , who should become the next PM. He was always a champion for Remainers , and was very effected by the vote . A truly lovely man.
Tusk’s anti-immigration rhetoric during the campaign went further than Suella Braverman.
I remember Remainers. Didn’t they used to be the ones in the silly blue hats? Whatever happened to them and their campaign?
Funny that you should say that:
Misleading if terms of rejoin are not explicit.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how the terms of Leave were not explicit, and that didn't stop us voting on it.
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Verily. It was a terrible error by Cameron. He should have got both sides to elaborate, beforehand
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
Agreed. Also let's not have any future referendums that make constitutional (including Rejoin if that ever comes to pass) without requiring 50% of the electorate to have voted for it.
Yup
The Aussies are right to have this 50% plus four (of six) states rule. Really big constitutional changes need MASSIVE majority support, or they cause bitter division for a loooooooong time
I think it's more that the government has to have a view. They have to have a plan to put to the voters in a referendum.
They don't.
Should we join the EU yes or no?
If yes it mandates UKG to negotiate the best entry terms they can get.
Same as before but reversed. Nothing impossible about that.
And republicans say Higgins is beloved by everyone and never says anything controversial!
Our monarchs never interfere in politics or foreign policy as blatantly as that
Our monarchs never do anything except other than to act as the ongoing reason for institutionalised snobbery in the UK.
It is probably why, for some groups of people, ineptitude and stupidity does not matter so long as you have the right ancestors.
Our constitutional monarchs know when to keep their mouths shut, they are far better than a politician as head of state, as Higgins has just proved even a supposedly 'ceremonial' one
"10:19PM Suspect may have been known to security services
Earlier on Monday, the alleged terrorist, using the name Slayem Slouma, shared a social media post about a six-year-old Palestinian-American boy stabbed 26 times in Chicago.
Mr Slouma wrote on Facebook that if the boy was Christian “it would have been called terrorism and not a brutal crime”.
The suspect was known to Belgium’s security services because of an apparent radicalisation before the attack, Belgian news service Sudinfo reported on Monday night."
Rejoin is < 30% if EU insists on Euro membership. Even just 45% for Lib Dems.
Conservative voters then massively opposed, Labour voters split down the middle, only a plurality of LDs would indeed back rejoining the EU with the Euro. However then again the Liberals have always been the most pro EU party, from Thorpe to Jenkins and Steel, to Ashdown, Kennedy, Clegg, Swinson and even Davey is still more pro realignment than Starmer and Sunak.
LDs also don't need to care what the working class redwall voters think about them either as they will never vote Liberal anyway, posher bluewall seats are more their target
Ah, but in this context don’t call them “Liberals”. The proper old Liberal Party was deeply sceptical. Were it still around, in numbers, it would be my party.
The Liberal Party, even under Thorpe and before merger with the SDP, was also pro EEC.
The Liberal Party you are talking about is just the tiny rump who refused to join the LDs
Comments
You've never stopped wailing about the Brexit vote since 2016, but you just have to get over it. Soemtimes you win a vote, sometimes you lose. It happens to all of us.
You can have your 90s nostalgia, like Farage had his 50s nostalgia, but you won’t get anywhere with it.
In the meantime, our relationship with the EU will get a bit closer, and we’ll find the right balance between us as the old Leave/Remain politicians retire and the idea of joining falls away.
Unusual for people to run away and survive these things. Maybe someone who has worked out that virgins is not the best place to start after all?
But, I would hope, that 2016 serves a lesson to all of us. If you're going to have referendum, make sure it is explicit what is going to happen.
Vague as possible wins the day
The Boner vote will get little coverage . There has been a catalogue of very negative things for the Tories over the last few weeks which might have had more impact especially with those by-elections coming up.
Sure, there are other bigger issues at the moment, between cost of living and the disintegration of public services, but sooner or later it will become a serious topic of discussion.
There are plenty of policies - like the death penalty - which would probably garner 51% support in a referendum, but which no political party will touch.
We had a referendum. And while many people regret the result, there are also a remarkable number of those who - while supporting joining the EU in the abstract - have no desire to reopen old wounds.
And I speak as a Leave voter who still believes Leave was the correct vote. My alleged correctitude doesn't matter, referendums only work with a highly informed electorate
The same, of course, applies to the Scotch indyref of 2014. Everyone was voting blind. "Oh yeah vote YES we'll still be in the EU and using the pound, probably, who cares, whatevs, just vote YES"
Absolutely irresponsible. Never again, either way, or for any subject
I thought you would have noticed...
So employ people who are actually funny, and get AI to do the rest - rather than employing people who can draw but can't amuse.
This is the future. Germany has lost over £8bn of exports to the UK and wants them back. Sunak will probably try to beat SKS to the punch with a deal like this. Otherwise SKS will do it anyway.
Indeed arguably voting to leave the UK to become a mere region of the EU again isn't real independence at all. Jim Sillars certainly thinks so
I think the concept of rejoining as a full member is still highly unlikely in the medium term.
But - and it is a big but - if the EU introduces the two or three speed membership that has been talked about, I think it is entirely plausible that the UK ends up as a looser associate member, depending on what that membership entails.
Remember that what were EU red lines could easily disappear in the next 10-20 years. The EU has been spooked by war on its borders, and it sees the benefit of bringing more nations under its umbrella for collective security and as a counterweight to a revanchist Russia. It is entirely plausible in a new world that previous shibboleths like freedom of movement might become slightly more negotiatable.
First is the demographics. Brexit was and is largely about the worldview of a very specific generation. And much as they stamp their feet, they're not going to be controlling the national debate forever.
Secondly, and relevant (I think) to this debate is the news of Peter Bone. Part of a pattern- it's not easy to think of a Brexit backing politician whosw reputation has been enhanced over the years since 2016. The thing is cursed.
Both sides lied and waved away massive problems. That must not happen again, for the sake of everyone - in Scotland or the wider UK
I voted Leave but I readily accept this lack of prior scrutiny, in retrospect, was a grave mistake
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports/united-kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom_rejoining_the_European_Union_(2020–present)
I could see it becoming big if it were plain that the EU were racing ahead economically, and we were failing, but, at present, that does not seem to be the case.
The Aussies are right to have this 50% plus four (of six) states rule. Really big constitutional changes need MASSIVE majority support, or they cause bitter division for a loooooooong time
This is the future. Germany has lost over £8bn of exp I was trying to work that in. Well done.
Prison should be reserved for those who are a clear danger to the public or property such as murderers, dangerous drivers who kill, serious sexual offenders and burglars and major drug barons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nast
Or think about the violent reactions to cartoons about a particular religious leader, just a few years ago.
The New Yorker magazine publishes many cartoons yearly, most having subjects other than politics and religion. But they do, from time to time publish cartoons mocking Christianity and Judaism.
I have four fairly recent yearly collections of their cartoons, with about 300 cartoons in each. You know how many cartoons mock Islam in those four collections?
One: https://condenaststore.com/featured/title-taliban-de-soleil-a-woman-sits-sunbathing-christopher-weyant.html?product=canvas-print
Pictures are powerful.
As Hogarth understood.
Farage? Suspect we both dislike him, but he’s for a solid rep as a winner.
Gove?
I have always thought that until a better plan emerges (if it ever did) the Norway option is the only rational possibility once the Brexit vote has happened, and the EU continues not to allow derogation from FOM within the SM (which it should but won't.)
Only he didn't.
If he had, it would have had the 2 positive effects of
a) killing off any notion of the remainers stopping the process; and
b) concentrating the minds of the leavers as to exactly what kind of Brexit they wanted.
.
https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/10/16/von-der-leyens-approach-to-israel-hamas-conflict-thoughtless-and-reckless-higgins/
I think it suits China to make the US/West scared that it might attack Taiwan, but that is used as a cover to divert eyes away from all the other slow influence building it is getting on with elsewhere.
Our monarchs never interfere in politics or foreign policy as blatantly as that
Natasha Loder 🐋
@natashaloder
·
2h
What I don’t understand is how you can be fired for drawing something. If a writer submitted copy that the editor thought was racist then it would either get changed or spiked. You wouldn’t get fired. That is sort of the point of editors.
This is the future. Germany has lost over £8bn of exp A point I have made repeatedly. The SM was a disaster for us and impoverished the country with large and growing deficits.
Of course, it was not the SM that was the flaw, it was the refusal of our political class of both stripes to recognise that membership of the SM was a discipline, a discipline they would never accept. We could have made a success of it but only with much more conservative (small c)
policies.
هجوم ثاني و قتل 3 اشخاص دتخل حافلة صغيرة فيديو القاتل 🔴
#BREAKING 🚨🚨🚨now in Belgium, #Brussels, the second attack and reports of the killing of 3 people inside a minibus
https://x.com/abdelhakblog/status/1714027497577234902?s=20
Unconfirmed, as yet
He got sacked for writing something which his editors had approved.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2002/sep/01/childprotection.pressandpublishing
@JacobMagid
🧵NEW: The Biden administration has privately been pressing Israel in recent days to flush out what its strategy is for the day after it completes its stated goal of eradicating Hamas in the ongoing Gaza war, a US and an Israeli official tell
@TimesofIsrael
. (1/4)
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his inner circle have indicated to their Biden counterparts that Israel has not yet come up with such a strategy and instead are more focused on the immediate goal of removing Hamas from power in Gaza, the US official says. (2/4)
https://twitter.com/JacobMagid/status/1714005428428816552
===
Well, the US know all about "a strategy for the day after" that's for sure.
In their sick mind, an excellent target.
Rejoin is < 30% if EU insists on Euro membership. Even just 45% for Lib Dems.
It is probably why, for some groups of people, ineptitude and stupidity does not matter so long as you have the right ancestors.
#Breaking and Unconfirmed: The attacker has been arrested by Belgian Police #Brussels #Belgium #France #Sweden #UK #India #Internationalleaks
Supposedly 5 dead and 8 injured. All unconfirmed
However:
Breaking:
"5 people confirmed dead after Islamic terrorist opens fired on civilians in Brussels, Belgium.
The gunman is at large, on a motorbike wearing an orange jacket.
Get inside immediately if you are in Brussels.
Reports that he is heading to the French border."
https://x.com/OliLondonTV/status/1714028967097725149?s=20
Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people or the future they want.
Palestinians are victims of Hamas too.
Today I’m announcing an increase in our aid to Palestinian civilians by a third, with an additional £10 million of support.'
https://x.com/RishiSunak/status/1713942266165743918?s=20
LDs also don't need to care what the working class redwall voters think about them either as they will never vote Liberal anyway, posher Remain voting bluewall seats are more their target
Should we join the EU yes or no?
If yes it mandates UKG to negotiate the best entry terms they can get.
Same as before but reversed. Nothing impossible about that.
@DAaronovitch
·
1h
Oh for heaven’s sake Polish friends, are the buggers out or not?
Suspect may have been known to security services
Earlier on Monday, the alleged terrorist, using the name Slayem Slouma, shared a social media post about a six-year-old Palestinian-American boy stabbed 26 times in Chicago.
Mr Slouma wrote on Facebook that if the boy was Christian “it would have been called terrorism and not a brutal crime”.
The suspect was known to Belgium’s security services because of an apparent radicalisation before the attack, Belgian news service Sudinfo reported on Monday night."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/16/brussels-shooting-latest-news-swedish-football-live-belgium/
The Liberal Party you are talking about is just the tiny rump who refused to join the LDs
The arrogant idiots of Brussels COULD have engaged with Cameron on this concept. It would have been enough for Brexit to have failed.