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The polling chart that won’t help Sunak keep his job – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited October 2023 in General
imageThe polling chart that won’t help Sunak keep his job – politicalbetting.com

At the weekend yet another pollster, Opinium, came out with Sunak’s ratings in sharp decline and there is little doubt that Rishi is struggling with public opinion. The chart says it all with the PM’s net rating down to minus 30%.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    First like Labour next GE!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    Peter Bone maybe ?

    Oh.
  • "Not another one!" Brenda from Bristol :lol:
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    FPT
    Fishing said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Sean_F said:

    148grss said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Sean_F said:

    It would certainly be intellectually dishonest to claim that "from the River to the Sea" means anything other than mass killing of Jews.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_River_to_the_Sea

    I mean, the history of that phrase is not one of exterminationist intent. "Palestine will be free / From the river to the sea" specifically is considered to come from the refusal to accept the partition of the land and the creation of the separate states - not a claim about exterminating Jewish people in the land at all.
    History of the phrase is irrelevant - its what it has come to mean that counts.
    I mean if the phrase has a continual usage not related to exterminationist views, which it has, I think it is quite relevant when making the claim that it would be "intellectually dishonest to claim [it] means anything other than the mass killing of Jews". Again, because I also know many Jewish people happy to chant it who understand it to mean no such thing!
    "Many". Those are very much outliers.
    It does not make their views less valid.
    And indeed only viewing the "right" kinds of Jewish people as being "real" Jews is a big problem (especially in the Labour party):

    https://jewishcurrents.org/the-jews-expelled-from-labour-over-antisemitism
    Labour had a genuine problem with anti-semitism under Corbyn. For a time I even had a local Labour councillor (Hightown, Luton) who was an admirer of Hitler (and former Anti-Racism Officer at Warwick University). People like that thought Labour was their home.
    Were there some anti-Semitic Labour party members? Yes. Was it institutionally racist - perhaps. Is throwing out left wing Jewish people who criticise Israel because that is apparently anti-Semitic actually sincere policing of anti-Semitism? No.

    I would also argue all political parties have anti-Semites in, and bigots of other kinds, and that British culture is inherently anti-Semitic. I would also point to the many people who have noted that Conservative anti-Muslim prejudices are not treated with any seriousness, to the point where ex Tory ministers and members of the EHRC have mentioned it - with no mainstream acceptance that it is an issue or that Islamophobia is bad.
    I would disagree absolutely with the assertion that British culture is inherently anti-Semitic in either the specific (Jewish) or general (including Arabic and other ME cultures) definitions. And having travelled very extensively throughout Europe and the Middle East for the last 35 years it is always a relief to come back to a country where overt anti-Jewish or anti-Arabic sentiment is so rare and so quickly condemned.
    Anit-Semitic tropes are still pretty common at low levels amongst the British public. I wouldn't say there are many "hard-core" anti-Semites (holocaust denial, raging hatred of Jews, etc.) but the tropey stuff (Jewish people are greedy, insular, dual loyalty) alongside how much general conspiracism ends up leading to anti-Semitic views.
    Who are you talking to for goodness sake? This does not match my experience of British life.
    No, on this rare occasion @148grss is right

    There IS a low level anti-Semitism in British society. Fortunately, nearly all of the time it remains exactly that - a quiet background murmur of tiny slurs, about them being clannish, cunning and wealthy. it's not just Britain. You can find it in almost every western society, if not all around the world

    But other groups experience the same - blacks, Muslims, rich whites, poor whites (chavs!), gays, the English in Scotland, it is human nature

    What makes anti-Semitism troubling amongst these many prejudices is that in certain groups it (uniquely?) metamorphosises into a potentially violent hatred - on the far right, the Corbynite left, and within radical Islam
    For me the most shocking act of antisemitism from a current/past party leader during my lifetime wasn't anything Corbyn said but when Harold MacMillan said about Thatcher appointing so many Jews to her cabinet was

    'The thing about Margaret’s Cabinet is that it includes more Old Estonians than it does Old Etonians.'

    I am generally a fan of SuperMac but eesh.
    Is that anti-Semitic or just clever wordplay expressing a truth? It can be viewed either way. Tricky one

    Corbyn's shite is much worse. The mural? Really? He didn't notice? What a load of bollocks
    A lot of pre-war novels can make you wince a bit, when you read stuff about Jews.

    “The room was full of Jews, of the wrong sort.”

    “He could not endure his girl marrying this swarthy son of Judah, whose father was likely selling matchsticks in Whitechapel.”

    “Mark my words. Behind every conspiracy, there’s a little white-faced Jew, with an eye like a rattlesnake.”
    Yes. And of course that famous poem by T S Eliot


    From:

    Burbank With A Baedeker
    Bleistein With A Cigar


    A lustreless protrusive eye
    Stares from the protozoic slime
    At a perspective of Canaletto.
    The smoky candle end of time

    Declines. On the Rialto once.
    The rats are underneath the piles.
    The jew is underneath the lot


    I find much by Evelyn Waugh very funny, but he included some awful slurs (mainly directed at blacks).
    It's interesting to speculate how this will pan out in future, ie what is it that we casually think and do now, which our descendants will find bewilderingly wrong? Because this moral evolution always happens

    I suspect our treatment of animals will come under scrutiny. From keeping pets to factory farming

    But maybe that's fairly obvious. What else?
    Good question. I'd suggest where the wokists lead the rest of us follow but I know you won't want to hear that.

    But, my god, the massive shift in public opinion over my lifetime (63 years) in the areas of diversity and inclusion, race, homosexuality, sexism, the treatment of animals, class prejudice, and - particularly noticeable to me - disability...

    That massive shift has all been towards a kinder, gentler, more accepting society.

    (And yes I know there are plenty of challenges still left, plenty of areas of improvement, areas of the world not seeing these benefits, and risks that we in the West could through this freedom away. But on the long view there has been enormous progress - no reason why it cannot continue if we will it.)
    I’m not at all convinced that society is kinder than in 1960.

    The same old cruelties, same old scandals, same old attitudes, come up again and again, even if they are repackaged in different form.
    Nah. I think society and culture are both a lot more tolerant and understanding of difference.

    So it is not Moorcock's Dancers at the Time but is is still a hell of at lot more diverse and welcoming of diversity than it was even when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s
    I think society is much more tolerant of difference in some ways (racial, gender, transgender, clothing, etc.) but less tolerant in other ways (opinions, some anti-social habits such as littering or drunk driving, etc.). There's also much less deference to strangers than there used to be.
    What do you mean by less deference to strangers?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Yes the Tories may get more seats with Mordaunt as leader.
    The issue is they wouldn't get her as leader.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Was there a fatal terror attack in Hartlepool - and no one noticed?!

    The Sun
    @TheSun
    ·
    4h
    Man arrested after bloodbath at hostel in Hartlepool – as anti-terror cops launch probe

    https://thesun.co.uk/news/24411027/man-killed-arrest-made-double-stabbing-hartlepool-counter-terror/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunmaintwitter&utm_source=Twitter

  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    FPT
    theakes said:

    Looks as if Labour appear to be in trouble at Mid Beds, Lib Dems seem confident they have seen them off.

    Well you would claim that, wouldn't you?

    I have just checked your posting history. On nearly every day for several weeks it seems you have submitted a post ramping up the Lib Dems' chances in Mid Beds, and relatively little on anything else. I think you're taking us for fools. It's almost like you're a Putinbot operating from Lib Dem HQ.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,938
    Leon said:

    Was there a fatal terror attack in Hartlepool - and no one noticed?!

    The Sun
    @TheSun
    ·
    4h
    Man arrested after bloodbath at hostel in Hartlepool – as anti-terror cops launch probe

    https://thesun.co.uk/news/24411027/man-killed-arrest-made-double-stabbing-hartlepool-counter-terror/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunmaintwitter&utm_source=Twitter

    From the reporting, sounds more like mental illness than terror. Terrorists choose their victims, they travel long distances and strike where they can cause the most damage and fear.

    Mentally ill people strike out at the first people they see, which seems to have been the case here.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    It's time.

    Her time.


  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    FPT

    theakes said:

    Looks as if Labour appear to be in trouble at Mid Beds, Lib Dems seem confident they have seen them off.

    Well you would claim that, wouldn't you?

    I have just checked your posting history. On nearly every day for several weeks it seems you have submitted a post ramping up the Lib Dems' chances in Mid Beds, and relatively little on anything else. I think you're taking us for fools. It's almost like you're a Putinbot operating from Lib Dem HQ.
    Yes, this poster is an irritant. A Liberal troll deliberately trying to shift the markets IMO.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    Sunak hasn't helped but the damage that 'was done and cannot be undone' was caused by Johnson and Brexit. Both will live in the memory long after the next election
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    It's time.

    Her time.


    Was this covered already?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/15/liz-truss-growth-commission-alternative-growth-budget/

    "Liz Truss task force to challenge Treasury orthodoxy with alternative ‘Growth Budget’"
  • But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    It's time.

    Her time.


    49 days of the Truss not enough for you? :lol:
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    Will you be voting for Sir Keir this time Pubman?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Has anyone got a link that works for the latest Opinium poll? The link on the wiki "Opinion Polling for the Next GE" site just references to a deleted X page.
  • Can't see any mention of the Deltapoll findings.

    Lab: 47% (+4)
    Con: 27% (-1)
    LibDem: 10% (-2%)

    Fieldwork 13th-16th October.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    edited October 2023

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
  • Can't see any mention of the Deltapoll findings.

    Lab: 47% (+4)
    Con: 27% (-1)
    LibDem: 10% (-2%)

    Fieldwork 13th-16th October.

    Definite Starmer bounce and he is taking Lib Dem votes by the looks of it

    https://twitter.com/DeltapollUK/status/1713917188363468986?t=rI2BNOfVrYrytBqSTMwYkA&s=19
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    It's time.

    Her time.


    It never was clear whether sales of heated loo seats went up or down after this.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,816
    edited October 2023

    Has anyone got a link that works for the latest Opinium poll? The link on the wiki "Opinion Polling for the Next GE" site just references to a deleted X page.

    EDIT: Actually, scrub that
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137

    FPT

    theakes said:

    Looks as if Labour appear to be in trouble at Mid Beds, Lib Dems seem confident they have seen them off.

    Well you would claim that, wouldn't you?

    I have just checked your posting history. On nearly every day for several weeks it seems you have submitted a post ramping up the Lib Dems' chances in Mid Beds, and relatively little on anything else. I think you're taking us for fools. It's almost like you're a Putinbot operating from Lib Dem HQ.
    Or someone who has a LibDem betting position they went to lay off
  • Has anyone got a link that works for the latest Opinium poll? The link on the wiki "Opinion Polling for the Next GE" site just references to a deleted X page.

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1713310334348345438?t=dHvh94tjqFVQ-AVYXv4-zQ&s=19
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375

    Can't see any mention of the Deltapoll findings.

    Lab: 47% (+4)
    Con: 27% (-1)
    LibDem: 10% (-2%)

    Fieldwork 13th-16th October.

    Thanks.
    Have you appropriated the Tories' username?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    Will you be voting for Sir Keir this time Pubman?
    I shall be sticking with CON even though they are useless. I am not voting LAB. Proper Conservative policies and principles (not necessarily in line with what we are seeing at the moment) are closest to my political beliefs.

    But I fully expect a LAB win and almost certainly an overall majority.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035
    edited October 2023
    Roger said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    Sunak hasn't helped but the damage that 'was done and cannot be undone' was caused by Johnson and Brexit. Both will live in the memory long after the next election
    We left the EU in January 2020, and the Conservatives were ahead in the polls for much of the following couple of years, or only slightly behind, so it wasn't that or Boris.

    No, the problem was Liz Truss, who transformed normal mid-term unpopularity into a 20-point deficit, from which Sunak hasn't recovered, and from which he seems to lack the political skills to recover. Though given rapidly falling living standards, rising and general exhaustion, I think even Tony Blair in his prime would have difficulty being popular at the moment.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Judging from today's i ("Third of Tory voters want general election by spring", page 4), there's an incoming BMG political poll, fieldwork 11th-12th October. But nothing in the paper or on their website yet with actual voting intention figures.
  • Has anyone got a link that works for the latest Opinium poll? The link on the wiki "Opinion Polling for the Next GE" site just references to a deleted X page.

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1713310334348345438?t=dHvh94tjqFVQ-AVYXv4-zQ&s=19
    Lab 44 (+2)
    Con 28 (-1)
    LDs 10 (-1)

    11-13 Oct
  • Oh, well. Broken, sleazy Tories AND LibDems on the slide!
  • Can't see any mention of the Deltapoll findings.

    Lab: 47% (+4)
    Con: 27% (-1)
    LibDem: 10% (-2%)

    Fieldwork 13th-16th October.

    Thanks.
    Have you appropriated the Tories' username?
    You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Has anyone got a link that works for the latest Opinium poll? The link on the wiki "Opinion Polling for the Next GE" site just references to a deleted X page.

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1713310334348345438?t=dHvh94tjqFVQ-AVYXv4-zQ&s=19
    Thanks, but I was really after a source for the detailed tables.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    It's time.

    Her time.


    49 days of the Truss not enough for you? :lol:
    49 illustrious days in our nation's history.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
    I think it depends - do the Tories want to continue to be in government (whilst not really governing) or would they prefer to grip the nettle firmly? I don't see how Sunak can possibly make things better - but he can keep making things worse...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    Will you be voting for Sir Keir this time Pubman?
    I shall be sticking with CON even though they are useless. I am not voting LAB. Proper Conservative policies and principles (not necessarily in line with what we are seeing at the moment) are closest to my political beliefs.

    But I fully expect a LAB win and almost certainly an overall majority.
    Fair enough – thx for the reply
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    Roger said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    Sunak hasn't helped but the damage that 'was done and cannot be undone' was caused by Johnson and Brexit. Both will live in the memory long after the next election
    You're not giving enough credit to Truss (and giving too much to Brexit, which remains popular enough to enough people that it could keep the Tories in the game were it not for everything else).

    Johnson was Johnson. Enough people could write him off as sui generis that had the Tories reverted to something normal, they'd have been forgiven his behaviour. The point of no return came when Truss blew everything up - not just because she did but because Tory MPs and members were willing to back her, despite her nonsense; indeed, because of her nonsense. They own that.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
    Fair enough but hanging on to Oct 2024 could be seen as desperate.

    And Jan 2025 as really really desperate!
  • Has anyone got a link that works for the latest Opinium poll? The link on the wiki "Opinion Polling for the Next GE" site just references to a deleted X page.

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1713310334348345438?t=dHvh94tjqFVQ-AVYXv4-zQ&s=19
    Thanks, but I was really after a source for the detailed tables.
    Not uploaded yet but will appear here.

    https://www.opinium.com/polling-tables-archive/
  • But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    It's time.

    Her time.


    Was this covered already?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/15/liz-truss-growth-commission-alternative-growth-budget/

    "Liz Truss task force to challenge Treasury orthodoxy with alternative ‘Growth Budget’"
    She tried that in September 2022.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,899
    edited October 2023

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    It's time.

    Her time.


    Phwoar
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    148grss said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
    I think it depends - do the Tories want to continue to be in government (whilst not really governing) or would they prefer to grip the nettle firmly? I don't see how Sunak can possibly make things better - but he can keep making things worse...
    They want to not lose. And if the choice is between losing now and maybe losing later, they'll choose later.

    In terms of polling, while Sunak's ratings have dropped markedly, the overall picture hasn't: Labour has retained a lead in the mid- to high-teens for about a year now. I don't think things will automatically get worse for the Tories. They may but then again they may not - and politicians tend to be an optimistic lot.
  • Donald Trump is preparing to give evidence at the High Court in London to deny hiring prostitutes, holding sex parties and bribing Russian officials.

    The former president of the United States is using data protection laws to sue a London-based intelligence consultancy founded by a former MI6 agent who produced a dossier of alleged Russian interference in the 2016 election.

    Hugh Tomlinson KC, Trump’s lawyer, told the court that his client “brings this case because he seeks vindication of his legal rights”.

    Trump wants to prove that the “shocking and scandalous claims about [his] personal conduct” are false and “intends to discharge that burden by giving evidence in this court”, he added.

    Christopher Steele, 59, who ran the Secret Intelligence Service’s Russia desk before co-founding Orbis Business Intelligence, was in court for the preliminary hearing.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/donald-trump-sue-british-spy-christopher-steele-dossier-court-trial-jqt7h6cxq
  • 148grss said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
    I think it depends - do the Tories want to continue to be in government (whilst not really governing) or would they prefer to grip the nettle firmly? I don't see how Sunak can possibly make things better - but he can keep making things worse...
    There is a case to be made for biting the bullet and going to the country. Let Labour take the heat from next year onwards and see their ratings tank as they fail (or are unable) to deliver any change.

    The earlier that you're kicked out of office, the earlier that you can expect to return to office.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728
    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    Sunak hasn't helped but the damage that 'was done and cannot be undone' was caused by Johnson and Brexit. Both will live in the memory long after the next election
    We left the EU in January 2020, and the Conservatives were ahead in the polls for much of the following couple of years, or only slightly behind, so it wasn't that or Boris.

    No, the problem was Liz Truss, who transformed normal mid-term unpopularity into a 20-point deficit, from which Sunak hasn't recovered, and from which he seems to lack the political skills to recover. Though given rapidly falling living standards, rising and general exhaustion, I think even Tony Blair in his prime would have difficulty being popular at the moment.
    It's the combination of them all. Brexit has lost the Tories a tranche of voters they used to be quite good at tapping into - namely fairly liberal working age professionals. Partly because of Brexit, partly due to housing and wage stagnation, they are now voting with similar patterns as students. They are just lost to the Tories - possibly for a generation or more. Which means the Tories have to do better with everyone else. They sort of were with those getting towards pension age, and leave voters pre-Partygate and then Truss. But now have lost popularity with those people due to those things, and Brexit declining as a positive sell even for those who voted for it. "We Got Brexit Done" can increasingly be met with "Yeah, but you messed it up". A perfect storm of annoying different groups of people.
  • On topic, Sunak's a duffer.

    The most charitable thing you can say about him is that he's not as shit as his two immediate predecessors.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited October 2023
    Isn't stating there's "less deference to strangers" another way of saying people are more prone to tribalism and echo chambers?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    On topic, Sunak's a duffer.

    The most charitable thing you can say about him is that he's not as shit as his two immediate predecessors.

    Rishi says "hold my Coke"...
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
    I think it depends - do the Tories want to continue to be in government (whilst not really governing) or would they prefer to grip the nettle firmly? I don't see how Sunak can possibly make things better - but he can keep making things worse...
    They want to not lose. And if the choice is between losing now and maybe losing later, they'll choose later.

    In terms of polling, while Sunak's ratings have dropped markedly, the overall picture hasn't: Labour has retained a lead in the mid- to high-teens for about a year now. I don't think things will automatically get worse for the Tories. They may but then again they may not - and politicians tend to be an optimistic lot.
    Sure, but they're going to lose. So it depends on how you want to lose - on your terms or when you have to? If they call it early they may (although it's unlikely) catch Labour or the LDs with their trousers down. If they hang on until the end, they look desperate. And, of course, if they do it too close to the locals but not actually on the locals then they will cost local councils a lot of money for no real good reason.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    Sunak hasn't helped but the damage that 'was done and cannot be undone' was caused by Johnson and Brexit. Both will live in the memory long after the next election
    We left the EU in January 2020, and the Conservatives were ahead in the polls for much of the following couple of years, or only slightly behind, so it wasn't that or Boris.

    No, the problem was Liz Truss, who transformed normal mid-term unpopularity into a 20-point deficit, from which Sunak hasn't recovered, and from which he seems to lack the political skills to recover. Though given rapidly falling living standards, rising and general exhaustion, I think even Tony Blair in his prime would have difficulty being popular at the moment.
    I agree with your gist, although you're understating the polling deficit under Truss which was pushing 30% at one point and from which Sunak recovered a bit initially before stalling at current levels.

    There has been polling on the effect of comparative leaders, by More in Common.

    See

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/08/18/what-would-be-happening-if-corbyn-was-still-lab-leader/

    When I looked at the data tables then available, I found that, as well as Corbyn, More in Common also asked about Johnson in the same poll and found that the polling deficit that Johnson would have generated would have been significantly smaller than with Sunak as PM. But the data now seems to have been removed from their tables. Maybe there's still something on X?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    edited October 2023

    The most charitable thing you can say about him is that he's not as shit as his two immediate predecessors.

    Are you sure?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744

    148grss said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
    I think it depends - do the Tories want to continue to be in government (whilst not really governing) or would they prefer to grip the nettle firmly? I don't see how Sunak can possibly make things better - but he can keep making things worse...
    There is a case to be made for biting the bullet and going to the country. Let Labour take the heat from next year onwards and see their ratings tank as they fail (or are unable) to deliver any change.

    The earlier that you're kicked out of office, the earlier that you can expect to return to office.
    You think it makes a difference that the Tories will have been in office for 14 years in May, rather than 14.5 years in the autumn?

    Anyway, even if Labour does become unpopular - at they probably will, though they're finally putting a positive platform together - there's no guarantee the public will return to the Tories. That's what Labour banked on in 2010-15. And that's assuming the Tories don't go completely bananas in opposition, which is what most parties who've been in government a long time tend to.
  • Scott_xP said:

    The most charitable thing you can say about him is that he's not as shit as his two immediate predecessors.

    Are you sure?
    Yes, he's not personally sleazy as say Boris Johnson.
  • Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Has anyone got a link that works for the latest Opinium poll? The link on the wiki "Opinion Polling for the Next GE" site just references to a deleted X page.

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1713310334348345438?t=dHvh94tjqFVQ-AVYXv4-zQ&s=19
    Thanks, but I was really after a source for the detailed tables.
    Not uploaded yet but will appear here.

    https://www.opinium.com/polling-tables-archive/
    Many thanks.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    The next leader will probably be Kemi Badenoch imo.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    Sunak hasn't helped but the damage that 'was done and cannot be undone' was caused by Johnson and Brexit. Both will live in the memory long after the next election
    We left the EU in January 2020, and the Conservatives were ahead in the polls for much of the following couple of years, or only slightly behind, so it wasn't that or Boris.

    No, the problem was Liz Truss, who transformed normal mid-term unpopularity into a 20-point deficit, from which Sunak hasn't recovered, and from which he seems to lack the political skills to recover. Though given rapidly falling living standards, rising and general exhaustion, I think even Tony Blair in his prime would have difficulty being popular at the moment.
    Truss screwed the coalition of Brexiteers and people with a financial interest in low interest rates by appealing to neither and going for free market libertarians, who are a very small number of mostly rich / media people.

    As soon as mortgage interest rates got hit and inflation hit, that upset most people in the coalition.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Andy_JS said:

    The next leader will probably be Kemi Badenoch imo.

    Or Braverman.

  • Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    CCHQ scripting Rishi as ersatz Boris, one suspects.
  • Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    What do you think he did specifically to trash his brand? I tend to be in agreement, but am interested in other people's takes.
  • But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
    Fair enough but hanging on to Oct 2024 could be seen as desperate.

    And Jan 2025 as really really desperate!
    Although I still think October is more likely, I do agree May is very much the value bet at 5-1.

    The Budget, even though it can't be an immediate giveaway, could set a programme of tax cuts over several years with some rabbits out of the hat on IHT etc. It's a decent set-piece to go into an election on "this is all only possible if you give Rishi a mandate..."

    Furthermore, the May local elections are likely to be really bad, partly because the Tories have a high base from 2021 (about half of which were deferred from 2020 due to COVID). The news today suggests that, while Bone might fight the dying of the light for a while, there's a by-election coming in Wellingborough, and there may always be more to cause a nuisance.

    As you say, the longer it goes on, the more the cries of "chicken" grow louder.

    The obvious thing against that is a large Labour poll lead. But Theresa May knows polling leads can be a bit deceptive, and it wouldn't surprise me if Sunak got a bit of credit for going in the Spring despite the polling position, and found himself with at least a little momentum.
  • Let's Get Britain's Future Back.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5m7j7e-N4

    Labour's new 1-minute video shows Keir Starmer standing up, sitting down, and walking around.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    Sunak hasn't helped but the damage that 'was done and cannot be undone' was caused by Johnson and Brexit. Both will live in the memory long after the next election
    We left the EU in January 2020, and the Conservatives were ahead in the polls for much of the following couple of years, or only slightly behind, so it wasn't that or Boris.

    No, the problem was Liz Truss, who transformed normal mid-term unpopularity into a 20-point deficit, from which Sunak hasn't recovered, and from which he seems to lack the political skills to recover. Though given rapidly falling living standards, rising and general exhaustion, I think even Tony Blair in his prime would have difficulty being popular at the moment.
    I agree with your gist, although you're understating the polling deficit under Truss which was pushing 30% at one point and from which Sunak recovered a bit initially before stalling at current levels.

    There has been polling on the effect of comparative leaders, by More in Common.

    See

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/08/18/what-would-be-happening-if-corbyn-was-still-lab-leader/

    When I looked at the data tables then available, I found that, as well as Corbyn, More in Common also asked about Johnson in the same poll and found that the polling deficit that Johnson would have generated would have been significantly smaller than with Sunak as PM. But the data now seems to have been removed from their tables. Maybe there's still something on X?
    PS. Found it now, I posted on the above thread back on 18th August

    "The headline More in Common VI with Sunak and Starmer as leaders is:
    Lab 44%
    Con 29%
    LD 11%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 6%
    SNP 3%

    Apply the net change found if Corbyn were to replace Starmer and you would get
    Lab 34% (-10)
    Con 36% (+7)
    LD 15% (+4)
    Ref 6%
    Grn 6%
    SNP 3%

    Incidentally, More in Common also asked about the impact if Johnson not Sunak were Conservative leader and found that the Labour lead under Starmer would fall by 6%. The gloss really has worn off Sunak."
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,818

    Let's Get Britain's Future Back.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5m7j7e-N4

    Labour's new 1-minute video shows Keir Starmer standing up, sitting down, and walking around.

    No helicopters, though. Definitely a bonus five for that.
  • But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
    Fair enough but hanging on to Oct 2024 could be seen as desperate.

    And Jan 2025 as really really desperate!
    Although I still think October is more likely, I do agree May is very much the value bet at 5-1.

    The Budget, even though it can't be an immediate giveaway, could set a programme of tax cuts over several years with some rabbits out of the hat on IHT etc. It's a decent set-piece to go into an election on "this is all only possible if you give Rishi a mandate..."

    Furthermore, the May local elections are likely to be really bad, partly because the Tories have a high base from 2021 (about half of which were deferred from 2020 due to COVID). The news today suggests that, while Bone might fight the dying of the light for a while, there's a by-election coming in Wellingborough, and there may always be more to cause a nuisance.

    As you say, the longer it goes on, the more the cries of "chicken" grow louder.

    The obvious thing against that is a large Labour poll lead. But Theresa May knows polling leads can be a bit deceptive, and it wouldn't surprise me if Sunak got a bit of credit for going in the Spring despite the polling position, and found himself with at least a little momentum.
    Somebody recently pointed out to me the huge problem of an October 2024 election.

    The campaign would feature the anniversaries of the Liz Truss premiership, Labour's grid would write itself.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
    Fair enough but hanging on to Oct 2024 could be seen as desperate.

    And Jan 2025 as really really desperate!
    Although I still think October is more likely, I do agree May is very much the value bet at 5-1.

    The Budget, even though it can't be an immediate giveaway, could set a programme of tax cuts over several years with some rabbits out of the hat on IHT etc. It's a decent set-piece to go into an election on "this is all only possible if you give Rishi a mandate..."

    Furthermore, the May local elections are likely to be really bad, partly because the Tories have a high base from 2021 (about half of which were deferred from 2020 due to COVID). The news today suggests that, while Bone might fight the dying of the light for a while, there's a by-election coming in Wellingborough, and there may always be more to cause a nuisance.

    As you say, the longer it goes on, the more the cries of "chicken" grow louder.

    The obvious thing against that is a large Labour poll lead. But Theresa May knows polling leads can be a bit deceptive, and it wouldn't surprise me if Sunak got a bit of credit for going in the Spring despite the polling position, and found himself with at least a little momentum.
    Yes - using the Budget to offer 'future things that you will only get if you stick with us' is entirely plausible and could form part of the content of a manifesto.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907

    Roger said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    Sunak hasn't helped but the damage that 'was done and cannot be undone' was caused by Johnson and Brexit. Both will live in the memory long after the next election
    You're not giving enough credit to Truss (and giving too much to Brexit, which remains popular enough to enough people that it could keep the Tories in the game were it not for everything else).

    Johnson was Johnson. Enough people could write him off as sui generis that had the Tories reverted to something normal, they'd have been forgiven his behaviour. The point of no return came when Truss blew everything up - not just because she did but because Tory MPs and members were willing to back her, despite her nonsense; indeed, because of her nonsense. They own that.
    I think the country would have been happy to give Johnson a chance. All they wanted from him was to steer a straight course and for Brexit to be relatively successful or at least not to appear to have failed dismally.

    The country feels rudderless and hopeless right now. It felt like this before the Truss debacle. and there's no evidence that had Sunak replaced Johnson we would feel any better towards the Tory Party than we do now
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    No more leadership changes. Time to crack on with the election now! Budget March 2024 then GE May 2024 aligned with local elections. Let's not drag it out any further!
    I don't believe a PM will call an election when double-digits behind in the polls if they can credibly go longer.

    The Budget won't change anything. A steady-as-she-goes one will make no impact; a radical tax-cutting one might unsettle the markets and even if it doesn't, will completely cut across everything Sunak's been saying since the 2022 leadership elections and will be so transparently cynical that it won't work (and Sunak will not be able to defend it in interviews because he's commendably rubbish at lying).

    Also, calling an election in March will be right off the back of a really serious NHS winter, which will have been all over the media.
    Fair enough but hanging on to Oct 2024 could be seen as desperate.

    And Jan 2025 as really really desperate!
    Although I still think October is more likely, I do agree May is very much the value bet at 5-1.

    The Budget, even though it can't be an immediate giveaway, could set a programme of tax cuts over several years with some rabbits out of the hat on IHT etc. It's a decent set-piece to go into an election on "this is all only possible if you give Rishi a mandate..."

    Furthermore, the May local elections are likely to be really bad, partly because the Tories have a high base from 2021 (about half of which were deferred from 2020 due to COVID). The news today suggests that, while Bone might fight the dying of the light for a while, there's a by-election coming in Wellingborough, and there may always be more to cause a nuisance.

    As you say, the longer it goes on, the more the cries of "chicken" grow louder.

    The obvious thing against that is a large Labour poll lead. But Theresa May knows polling leads can be a bit deceptive, and it wouldn't surprise me if Sunak got a bit of credit for going in the Spring despite the polling position, and found himself with at least a little momentum.
    Mid-Nov seems most likely to me - that gives Sunak the chance to call it from, or immediately after, the Tory party conference, using the early Sept session for wash-up of anything still outstanding (which isn't likely to be much anyway). Conference makes for as decent a launch-pad as they could hope for, while also potentially messing up Labour's, if it comes last again like this year's (does it?). And it gives a summer's break beforehand where political things are less likely to go wrong.
  • Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    What do you think he did specifically to trash his brand? I tend to be in agreement, but am interested in other people's takes.
    His brand was a period of calm and sober leadership after the chaos of Johnson and Truss. Set out some goals at the start of the year, and hail your successes at the end of it. A welcome return to politics as usual - boring, stable, reassuring.

    But the polls looked bad and the promises looked shaky, so he switched to a populist appeal which he doesn't really have the charisma to carry off, and that is completely at odds with Sunak Mk.1.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2023
    I doubt there’s anyone in the Commons who can turn this round for the Tories, the damage is done

    Even if there were some untapped talent waiting in the wings, a fourth PM in one parliament is beyond ludicrous. Personally I think there should be a GE if the party in charge decide to change leader
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239

    Let's Get Britain's Future Back.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5m7j7e-N4

    Labour's new 1-minute video shows Keir Starmer standing up, sitting down, and walking around.

    If it were Joe Biden that would be quite impressive.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023

    Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    What do you think he did specifically to trash his brand? I tend to be in agreement, but am interested in other people's takes.
    His brand was a period of calm and sober leadership after the chaos of Johnson and Truss. Set out some goals at the start of the year, and hail your successes at the end of it. A welcome return to politics as usual - boring, stable, reassuring.

    But the polls looked bad and the promises looked shaky, so he switched to a populist appeal which he doesn't really have the charisma to carry off, and that is completely at odds with Sunak Mk.1.
    The problem is people aren't really in the mood for this keep calm and carry on as before, which can easily be precieved as managed decline. Even before COVID there were reasons for rise of Corbyn vs May's similar "boring approach".

    Boris managed to the BS of I won't be a typical Tory, I am going to spend spend spend, throw money at levelling up, haaazzaahh.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907
    edited October 2023

    Let's Get Britain's Future Back.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5m7j7e-N4

    Labour's new 1-minute video shows Keir Starmer standing up, sitting down, and walking around.

    I liked it! It said nothing. No one fell over. Was up-beat and the music was catchy.

    What more do you want?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2023
    Sturgeon's denies being SNP's Liz Truss as she eclipses Yousaf at conference



    https://x.com/HTScotPol/status/1713914933560180846?s=20
  • Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    What do you think he did specifically to trash his brand? I tend to be in agreement, but am interested in other people's takes.
    - Appointing Suella Braverman as Home Sec
    - Continuing with the Rwanda nonsense
    - Compounding this by campaigning on 'Stop the Boats' when he hasn't and won't
    - Cancelling (if he actually has!) a huge infrastructure project in an announcement which seems to have been put together on the back of a fag packet in a hotel room in Manchester and which fell apart within 24 hours
    - Totally mishandling the Net Zero issue, where the decisions may have been rational but the presentation made them look arbitrary and irrational
    - Announcing plans for education which are clearly not thought out and which will never happen

    He was meant to bring stability and properly-considered policy making. Instead the chaos has continued.
    Question is- was there ever anything to back up that image of stability and properly-considered policy, or was it just wishcasting?

    See Eat Out to Help Covid Out.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited October 2023

    Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    What do you think he did specifically to trash his brand? I tend to be in agreement, but am interested in other people's takes.
    - Appointing Suella Braverman as Home Sec
    - Continuing with the Rwanda nonsense
    - Compounding this by campaigning on 'Stop the Boats' when he hasn't and won't
    - Cancelling (if he actually has!) a huge infrastructure project in an announcement which seems to have been put together on the back of a fag packet in a hotel room in Manchester and which fell apart within 24 hours
    - Totally mishandling the Net Zero issue, where the decisions may have been rational but the presentation made them look arbitrary and irrational
    - Announcing plans for education which are clearly not thought out and which will never happen

    He was meant to bring stability and properly-considered policy making. Instead the chaos has continued.
    Question is- was there ever anything to back up that image of stability and properly-considered policy, or was it just wishcasting?

    See Eat Out to Help Covid Out.
    Furlough scheme was good, albeit went on far too long.
  • But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    It's time.

    Her time.


    Phwoar
    David Byrne called. He wants his trousers back.... and also asked "What the absolute f**k????!!!!!"
  • Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    What do you think he did specifically to trash his brand? I tend to be in agreement, but am interested in other people's takes.
    - Appointing Suella Braverman as Home Sec
    - Continuing with the Rwanda nonsense
    - Compounding this by campaigning on 'Stop the Boats' when he hasn't and won't
    - Cancelling (if he actually has!) a huge infrastructure project in an announcement which seems to have been put together on the back of a fag packet in a hotel room in Manchester and which fell apart within 24 hours
    - Totally mishandling the Net Zero issue, where the decisions may have been rational but the presentation made them look arbitrary and irrational
    - Announcing plans for education which are clearly not thought out and which will never happen

    He was meant to bring stability and properly-considered policy making. Instead the chaos has continued.
    Question is- was there ever anything to back up that image of stability and properly-considered policy, or was it just wishcasting?

    See Eat Out to Help Covid Out.
    It may well have been wishcasting, although the Windsor Framework seemed to be an example of working through the detail to get a successful result.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2023
    Roger said:

    Let's Get Britain's Future Back.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5m7j7e-N4

    Labour's new 1-minute video shows Keir Starmer standing up, sitting down, and walking around.

    I liked it! It said nothing. No one fell over. Was up-beat and the music was catchy.

    What more do you want?
    It's a great video, thank goodness they didn't do him "taking the knee"!



  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,129
    Rishi Sunak has whatever the opposite of 'electoral magic' is but the Cons have to stick with him into the GE. If they changed PM again people would start to view them as a joke rather than a serious political party.
  • kinabalu said:

    Rishi Sunak has whatever the opposite of 'electoral magic' is but the Cons have to stick with him into the GE. If they changed PM again people would start to view them as a joke rather than a serious political party.

    Start to view them.....
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    Sunak hasn't helped but the damage that 'was done and cannot be undone' was caused by Johnson and Brexit. Both will live in the memory long after the next election
    We left the EU in January 2020, and the Conservatives were ahead in the polls for much of the following couple of years, or only slightly behind, so it wasn't that or Boris.

    No, the problem was Liz Truss, who transformed normal mid-term unpopularity into a 20-point deficit, from which Sunak hasn't recovered, and from which he seems to lack the political skills to recover. Though given rapidly falling living standards, rising and general exhaustion, I think even Tony Blair in his prime would have difficulty being popular at the moment.
    Johnson’s polling was buoyed by COVID, giving the impression of an extended honeymoon. The Tories’ polling then started falling under Johnson, well before Truss.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    Welcome back, Richard.

    Will you be voting for Sirs Ed or Keir, next time? Or sticking with the Tories?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    What do you think he did specifically to trash his brand? I tend to be in agreement, but am interested in other people's takes.
    He was meant to bring stability and properly-considered policy making. Instead the chaos has continued.
    In fairness, it's moderately more intellectually coherent than the random nonsense of his two predecessors
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    kinabalu said:

    Rishi Sunak has whatever the opposite of 'electoral magic' is but the Cons have to stick with him into the GE. If they changed PM again people would start to view them as a joke rather than a serious political party.

    So far the downwards trajectory of Sunak's net approval matches the scenario I sketched out in my thread header a few weeks back and suggests that Labour remains on course to win a majority. I agree with you that replacing him is not really an option for the Tories. Sad!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Andy_JS said:

    The next leader will probably be Kemi Badenoch imo.

    The purported appeal of Bad Enoch baffles me. She is wooden on the telly and has been completely invisible as a minister.

    What exactly is the attraction?
  • Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    Welcome back, Richard.

    Will you be voting for Sirs Ed or Keir, next time? Or sticking with the Tories?
    LibDem, like last time. (They are bonkers, of course, but in a less damaging way than the Tories).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    But which different leader? It's all very well speculating about Penny Morduant, and were there a vacancy she may well win. But then again, she may not. It could be a nutcase or chancer or ideological zealot. But I repeat myself.

    Tory MPs have no idea what number is going to come up if they roll the leadership dice and dumping Sunak will only help if his replacement can clearly do a better job. Firstly, can someone do a better job of both articulating an attractive vision and running a government, and secondly, if there is such a person (or such people) what are their chances of winning and what are the risks if they don't?

    I think that barring an almighty screw-up over a particular issue, Sunak is there for the duration now. It's just too disruptive and too risky for too little return to change leader yet again - particularly when running a leadership contest is, of itself, likely to hit Tory polling merely for the navel-gazing.

    The problem is not the leader; the problem is the party.

    Sunak hasn't helped but the damage that 'was done and cannot be undone' was caused by Johnson and Brexit. Both will live in the memory long after the next election
    We left the EU in January 2020, and the Conservatives were ahead in the polls for much of the following couple of years, or only slightly behind, so it wasn't that or Boris.

    No, the problem was Liz Truss, who transformed normal mid-term unpopularity into a 20-point deficit, from which Sunak hasn't recovered, and from which he seems to lack the political skills to recover. Though given rapidly falling living standards, rising and general exhaustion, I think even Tony Blair in his prime would have difficulty being popular at the moment.
    I agree with your gist, although you're understating the polling deficit under Truss which was pushing 30% at one point and from which Sunak recovered a bit initially before stalling at current levels.

    There has been polling on the effect of comparative leaders, by More in Common.

    See

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/08/18/what-would-be-happening-if-corbyn-was-still-lab-leader/

    When I looked at the data tables then available, I found that, as well as Corbyn, More in Common also asked about Johnson in the same poll and found that the polling deficit that Johnson would have generated would have been significantly smaller than with Sunak as PM. But the data now seems to have been removed from their tables. Maybe there's still something on X?
    PS. Found it now, I posted on the above thread back on 18th August

    "The headline More in Common VI with Sunak and Starmer as leaders is:
    Lab 44%
    Con 29%
    LD 11%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 6%
    SNP 3%

    Apply the net change found if Corbyn were to replace Starmer and you would get
    Lab 34% (-10)
    Con 36% (+7)
    LD 15% (+4)
    Ref 6%
    Grn 6%
    SNP 3%

    Incidentally, More in Common also asked about the impact if Johnson not Sunak were Conservative leader and found that the Labour lead under Starmer would fall by 6%. The gloss really has worn off Sunak."
    No one else dare say it, but it seems people are slowly coming to the obvious conclusion as to where it all went wrong for the Tories in this parliament.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,129

    kinabalu said:

    Rishi Sunak has whatever the opposite of 'electoral magic' is but the Cons have to stick with him into the GE. If they changed PM again people would start to view them as a joke rather than a serious political party.

    Start to view them.....
    Ha, I know. But I think they're just on the right side of it at the moment. The people are sick of them and the people hate them, but they do still take them seriously. Or most do anyway. They are not, as we speak, a national laughing stock like Eddie the Eagle or something.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kinabalu said:

    Rishi Sunak has whatever the opposite of 'electoral magic' is but the Cons have to stick with him into the GE. If they changed PM again people would start to view them as a joke rather than a serious political party.

    Nobody can make them have a GE. They could change leader and brazen it out for 6-9 months. Honeymoon bounce + giveaway budget + don't mention Brexit now that everyone hates it + DUP = wafer thin majority and another five years of governmental excellence.
  • Andy_JS said:

    The next leader will probably be Kemi Badenoch imo.

    The purported appeal of Bad Enoch baffles me. She is wooden on the telly and has been completely invisible as a minister.

    What exactly is the attraction?
    She's a black woman who's also massively anti-woke. The British Right see that as the perfect stick with which to bludgeon the Left.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Andy_JS said:

    The next leader will probably be Kemi Badenoch imo.

    The purported appeal of Bad Enoch baffles me. She is wooden on the telly and has been completely invisible as a minister.

    What exactly is the attraction?
    She's a black woman who's also massively anti-woke. The British Right see that as the perfect stick with which to bludgeon the Left.
    Yeah, I think it is more about "this will really annoy the wokerati" then anything else.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Let's Get Britain's Future Back.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5m7j7e-N4

    Labour's new 1-minute video shows Keir Starmer standing up, sitting down, and walking around.

    Also pulling a pint – of Tribute, an absolutely delicious cask ale.

    Kudos due.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Rishi Sunak has whatever the opposite of 'electoral magic' is but the Cons have to stick with him into the GE. If they changed PM again people would start to view them as a joke rather than a serious political party.

    Start to view them.....
    Ha, I know. But I think they're just on the right side of it at the moment. The people are sick of them and the people hate them, but they do still take them seriously. Or most do anyway. They are not, as we speak, a national laughing stock like Eddie the Eagle or something.
    The problem they have is similar to clear out of New Labour types, Tories like Javid who are perfectly reasonable people are off at the next GE. The loony to sane ratio is going to really shift.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    kinabalu said:

    Rishi Sunak has whatever the opposite of 'electoral magic' is but the Cons have to stick with him into the GE. If they changed PM again people would start to view them as a joke rather than a serious political party.

    Arf
  • Andy_JS said:

    The next leader will probably be Kemi Badenoch imo.

    The purported appeal of Bad Enoch baffles me. She is wooden on the telly and has been completely invisible as a minister.

    What exactly is the attraction?
    Partly her policy platform (pro Brexit, feedom to make lots of wonga, down with wokery).

    Partly her backstory (if you focus on the "worked at McDonalds/did an engineering degree" bit, rather than the "daughter of a GP and an globetrotting academic/law and financial consultant/worked at the Spectator" bit).

    Partly because of the Father Ted ("not a racist") bit.

    I can see the point, but by itself that shouldn't be enough.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Andy_JS said:

    The next leader will probably be Kemi Badenoch imo.

    The purported appeal of Bad Enoch baffles me. She is wooden on the telly and has been completely invisible as a minister.

    What exactly is the attraction?
    She's a black woman who's also massively anti-woke. The British Right see that as the perfect stick with which to bludgeon the Left.
    Is that it? Seems thin gruel indeed on which to pick a leader.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    edited October 2023

    Sunak is proving very poor as leader, having bizarrely and unnecessarily trashed his own brand, but switching would be even worse. It's not as though there's a David Cameron waiting in the wings with lots of support in the party and amongst MPs. Even if they had a less bad candidate than Sunak, they wouldn't unite around him or her.

    As for Penny Mordaunt, let's not forget just how abysmal she was when she did stand in the leadership contest. Admittedly Liz Truss was even worse, and that didn't seem to be a barrier to her becoming leader, but in terms of improving their electoral chances, the party would be mad to even think about it.

    They are done up like a kipper, as it were.

    What do you think he did specifically to trash his brand? I tend to be in agreement, but am interested in other people's takes.
    - Appointing Suella Braverman as Home Sec
    - Continuing with the Rwanda nonsense
    - Compounding this by campaigning on 'Stop the Boats' when he hasn't and won't
    - Cancelling (if he actually has!) a huge infrastructure project in an announcement which seems to have been put together on the back of a fag packet in a hotel room in Manchester and which fell apart within 24 hours
    - Totally mishandling the Net Zero issue, where the decisions may have been rational but the presentation made them look arbitrary and irrational
    - Announcing plans for education which are clearly not thought out and which will never happen

    He was meant to bring stability and properly-considered policy making. Instead the chaos has continued.
    Question is- was there ever anything to back up that image of stability and properly-considered policy, or was it just wishcasting?

    See Eat Out to Help Covid Out.
    I liked Eotho! Use it a fair few times and the savings were great. It was the middle of the summer and you could eat outside: seemed very popular, and helped a hospitality sector that was on its knees. One of the few good ideas Sunak had?
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