Re header: Starmer needs a bit of luck, as Blair had, on the economy. There are really good things that Labour are saying, and maybe they work, maybe they don't, but the big thing is simply do they have enough to engender a national feel-good factor.
Meanwhile in Tory-land it just continues to be plain wrong. Sunak is very slightly against the tide currently, but I neither believe he can change things nor believe that he has any real intention of doing so.
I can't understand why the Guardian keep him on. It's not as is his cartoons are insightful or funny...
Steve Bell hasn't worked for the Guardian since 2021.
By that you mean he is freelance, because his cartoons are still published by the Guardian and they apparently they now vet all his cartoons. This particular one they pulled from todays Guardian and it is him making a scene about it, saying I don't understand, it seems all fine to me.
Spiked again. It is getting pretty nigh impossible to draw this subject for the Guardian now without being accused of deploying "antisemitic tropes".
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
And that is why so many Charlton Athletic fans don't vote - they feel terribly let down by various governments.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
And your point is? Besides, whilst not being 'hunted to near-extinction', the lives of ordinary Jews in the Middle East was often not exactly pleasant compared to non-Jews. See my posts yesterday.
Nowhere near enough, especially if our population continues to grow [which it will] then we need far, far, far more than that. The country needs about 13 million extra houses to catch up with how many France has with a comparable population, plus extra to cope with population growth.
But its far better than Sunak is promising.
10 million over the next decade, about a million a year, to end and reverse our housing shortage should be the ambition.
I can't understand why the Guardian keep him on. It's not as is his cartoons are insightful or funny...
Steve Bell hasn't worked for the Guardian since 2021.
By that you mean he is freelance, because his cartoons are still published by the Guardian and they apparently they now vet all his cartoons. This particular one they pulled from todays Guardian and it is him making a scene about it, saying I don't understand, it seems all fine to me.
Spiked again. It is getting pretty nigh impossible to draw this subject for the Guardian now without being accused of deploying "antisemitic tropes".
It's always amazing how committed anti-racists and the perpetually right-on can never see things when it comes from their own ilk.
The reaction is telling. You would have thought most people, particularly given the current situation, would be a) thank you at the Guardian desk for saving my arse and b) I'm really sorry, I honestly didn't realise, let me try another idea....not go on twitter drawing attention to the fact you have drawn a cartoon that contains a particular trope and giving it the big'un about not fair and unable to criticise Israel / Bibi....
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
Nowhere near enough, especially if our population continues to grow [which it will] then we need far, far, far more than that. The country needs about 13 million extra houses to catch up with how many France has with a comparable population, plus extra to cope with population growth.
But its far better than Sunak is promising.
10 million over the next decade, about a million a year, to end and reverse our housing shortage should be the ambition.
It's an odd one as well because the Tories always do better overall when home ownership goes up so it's in their interest to build the houses. Labour, not so much...
But it's Labour promising to do what should be a naturally conservative thing to do.
Shows how the Conservatives have lost their way, really.
Nowhere near enough, especially if our population continues to grow [which it will] then we need far, far, far more than that. The country needs about 13 million extra houses to catch up with how many France has with a comparable population, plus extra to cope with population growth.
But its far better than Sunak is promising.
10 million over the next decade, about a million a year, to end and reverse our housing shortage should be the ambition.
Both parties in their own way are ducking the problems we face. Neither of them deserves to be in power, but it's not like there is a better party waiting in the wings.
Nowhere near enough, especially if our population continues to grow [which it will] then we need far, far, far more than that. The country needs about 13 million extra houses to catch up with how many France has with a comparable population, plus extra to cope with population growth.
But its far better than Sunak is promising.
10 million over the next decade, about a million a year, to end and reverse our housing shortage should be the ambition.
It's an odd one as well because the Tories always do better overall when home ownership goes up so it's in their interest to build the houses. Labour, not so much...
But it's Labour promising to do what should be a naturally conservative thing to do.
Shows how the Conservatives have lost their way, really.
Of course, whether the new houses Labour are promising ever actually turn up is another matter, lol.
Hamas Militants have reportedly crossed the Border into the Southern Israeli City of Sderot with Firefights currently taking place between them and IDF Units in the City Center.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
And that is why so many Charlton Athletic fans don't vote - they feel terribly let down by various governments.
It’s fortunate that Millwall and West Ham are in different leagues. They don’t get on very well.
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
Just like the eco-fascist stunts, the media should totally ignore this.
Of course
And of course we will shortly be getting the Mail articles about how Tarquin went to some posh private school and how much his parents house (that he still lives in) is worth....
Oh of course.
I don’t personally have a problem with such political protest, it’s part of long and noble tradition. No-one was hurt or inconvenienced, with no damage done except to the reputation of the SKS security team, who should have bundled him off the stage well before he got close to their VIP.
Very different to blocking a public road, causing damage to property, or forcing the cancellation of a sporting event.
Anyone know what glitterman was protesting against (or for)?
The latest suggestion is that they’re a group affiliated to the JSO mob, in favour of more imports of oil from Saudi, Russia, and Qatar, rather than domestic production (although they might not have phrased it like that)
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
Mostly the middle east is and has always been a lovely and civilised place. When it's not though it descends to a barbarism that I think is unparalleled elsewhere. The Pacific Islands, the South Americas, the Africans, and the most brutal Europeans would look away.
Isn’t he being sarcastic? Mocking posters who cheerlead for Sunak? It seems obvious to me, I didn’t say so because I thought everyone knew
Hey isam, what happened with your friend that was in the coma? (Sorry if you've posted and I've missed it)
Hi, thanks for asking
I’m afraid he never recovered. In all likelihood he died in the ambulance and was being kept alive by the ventilator for four days. We prayed for a miracle but it never came.
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
1 is more likely imo but it's best to expect 2 so I won't try and talk you out of it.
Well I'll be voting Labour for the first time since the 1997 election anyway, as the Tories are done for and it's inconceivable they could govern for another term.
So it'll be a case of X for Labour and 🤞
That's a good call, I think. I can't see a reason to vote Tory this time other than for party loyalists and the seriously right wing.
I've never seen the Claws of Axos. Or Inferno. Or - and lets be honest - anything Troughton or Hartnell did (I know, i'll have my card taken away from me) other than The Krotons.
Isn’t he being sarcastic? Mocking posters who cheerlead for Sunak? It seems obvious to me, I didn’t say so because I thought everyone knew
Hey isam, what happened with your friend that was in the coma? (Sorry if you've posted and I've missed it)
Hi, thanks for asking
I’m afraid he never recovered. In all likelihood he died in the ambulance and was being kept alive by the ventilator for four days. We prayed for a miracle but it never came.
Ah right. I rather suspected that would be the outcome but still terrible news.
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
It gets worse
"🚨 IDF confirms to Insider that soldiers found the decapitated bodies of babies at Kfar Aza near the Gaza border. Story to follow."
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
There was a big influx of new members (don't say Brexiteer entryists) into the Conservative Party recently. I wonder if Rishi might be persuaded to stay on for a few months in the hope that some memberships might lapse.
Seems a pretty remote hope as people will hang on, and others are likely to join, simply to get a say in the leadership election. Sunak could delay a leadership contest a bit post-General Election, but it'll be a matter of a handful of months only, and everyone knows that.
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
For the common good, I watched the Starmer speech in its entirety, eschewing the normal PB option of second-hand reporting or pinching lines from X.
I can see why Tories didn't like it - it was really rather good, quite powerful, and did the business with knobs on. Of course he doesn't present as well as Blair, but that's a vacuous comparison.
On glittergate, Starmer responded very well. The protestor actually grabbed hold of him. If one uses one's imagination, that must have been briefly pretty scary.
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
Isn’t he being sarcastic? Mocking posters who cheerlead for Sunak? It seems obvious to me, I didn’t say so because I thought everyone knew
Maybe, hard to keep track of Mexican these days – frequently he himself is Sunak's biggest cheerleader!!
It looks to me like @mexicanpete become more pressed for time or something about 12 months ago, or perhaps he tired of BJO's (or other) output and, from being a poster giving serious commentary, switched increasingly to snappy satirical stuff. Don't think he's Starmer's biggest fan, but the GLORIOUS TORY FUTURE stuff isn't real.
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
How have the Tories managed to throw it away like this? Once they ditched Boris it was all over
It is because of Boris that respondents feel the need to describe Starmer as honest.
It must be a relative thing, as he has been very dishonest ever since he came into politics - the dull persona must act as a kind of hypnotists swinging watch that makes people think he is genuine
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
Isn’t he being sarcastic? Mocking posters who cheerlead for Sunak? It seems obvious to me, I didn’t say so because I thought everyone knew
Hey isam, what happened with your friend that was in the coma? (Sorry if you've posted and I've missed it)
Hi, thanks for asking
I’m afraid he never recovered. In all likelihood he died in the ambulance and was being kept alive by the ventilator for four days. We prayed for a miracle but it never came.
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
Hope everything's OK?
Quite an impressive video from Norwich City for Mental Health Day
I've never seen the Claws of Axos. Or Inferno. Or - and lets be honest - anything Troughton or Hartnell did (I know, i'll have my card taken away from me) other than The Krotons.
I certainly remember as a kid being terrified of the Yeti, one of Troughton's adversaries. Probably risible now, but back in the day, proper hide behind the sofa stuff.
Need to click the link to see the picture. You can't un-see this. It is of a bloodied baby carrier but clear from the pattern of the blood what is likely to have happened.
In response to earlier messages about the proof that is required. I am not sure what you are expecting for proof? No, I haven't checked all the sources, I don't have time for that. However, this seems pretty much inline with the rest of the barbarism demonstrated by Hamas.
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
Hope everything's OK?
Oh yes it is, thanks. But, you know, no spring chicken. And it's a long way back for these Tories. Brexit and Boris have gutted them!
Isn’t he being sarcastic? Mocking posters who cheerlead for Sunak? It seems obvious to me, I didn’t say so because I thought everyone knew
Maybe, hard to keep track of Mexican these days – frequently he himself is Sunak's biggest cheerleader!!
It looks to me like @mexicanpete become more pressed for time or something about 12 months ago, or perhaps he tired of BJO's (or other) output and, from being a poster giving serious commentary, switched increasingly to snappy satirical stuff. Don't think he's Starmer's biggest fan, but the GLORIOUS TORY FUTURE stuff isn't real.
That's one analysis. If correct, then kudos. To me, it presents more as a Centrist Dad version of BJO's tiresome bilge. But, you could be right and I hope you are.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
Irrespective of their policies, I'm puzzled by the notion of Arab national governments in 1943. Most of the ME was under UK or French admin/military occupation (or something very like it in the case of Egypt).
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
Hope everything's OK?
Oh yes it is, thanks. But, you know, no spring chicken. And it's a long way back for these Tories. Brexit and Boris have gutted them!
Pull yourself together anyway. The game is afoot, and there's no time for malingerers
Mostly the middle east is and has always been a lovely and civilised place. When it's not though it descends to a barbarism that I think is unparalleled elsewhere. The Pacific Islands, the South Americas, the Africans, and the most brutal Europeans would look away.
There is sadly barbarism in much of the world. There are horrendous things going on in Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Ethiopia, Sudan, Myanmar, Colombia, DR Congo, Yemen, Syria etc.
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
Hope everything's OK?
Quite an impressive video from Norwich City for Mental Health Day
Need to click the link to see the picture. You can't un-see this. It is of a bloodied baby carrier but clear from the pattern of the blood what is likely to have happened.
In response to earlier messages about the proof that is required. I am not sure what you are expecting for proof? No, I haven't checked all the sources, I don't have time for that. However, this seems pretty much inline with the rest of the barbarism demonstrated by Hamas.
It looks like proof might emerge
"In the liberated kibbutz of Kfar-Aza, a container with charred bodies of children and infants was found, some of them decapitated.
Many sources are confirming this information. If there is video confirmation, it will be posted only on Telegram."
"Protest or Power. That's why we changed our party."
A good line. Prepped for just such an occasion no doubt.
I have to say this particular protest group seems particularly barmy. Many people, me amongst them, are skeptical about citizen assemblies, but at least they are usually proposed to be about something specific. But to have a permanent one to tackle, essentially, everything, well then you really are just saying why even have elections at all.
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
You continue to describe ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity, something recognised to be one of the most evil acts possible in the world. The UK has taken up arms to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world.
Mostly the middle east is and has always been a lovely and civilised place. When it's not though it descends to a barbarism that I think is unparalleled elsewhere. The Pacific Islands, the South Americas, the Africans, and the most brutal Europeans would look away.
There is sadly barbarism in much of the world. There are horrendous things going on in Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Ethiopia, Sudan, Myanmar, Colombia, DR Congo, Yemen, Syria etc.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
Irrespective of their policies, I'm puzzled by the notion of Arab national governments in 1943. Most of the ME was under UK or French admin/military occupation (or something very like it in the case of Egypt).
Is 1941 about 80 years ago?
Iraq became independent in 1932 and in 1941 there were massacres of Jews as well as the spread of Nazi propaganda in Iraq.
There are other examples from across the Middle East around that decade. The idea it only happened in Germany and German controlled land is ignorance, not reality.
This also spread across the Middle East post-1945 too which would be rounded to "about 80 years ago"
Mostly the middle east is and has always been a lovely and civilised place. When it's not though it descends to a barbarism that I think is unparalleled elsewhere. The Pacific Islands, the South Americas, the Africans, and the most brutal Europeans would look away.
There is sadly barbarism in much of the world. There are horrendous things going on in Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Ethiopia, Sudan, Myanmar, Colombia, DR Congo, Yemen, Syria etc.
For the common good, I watched the Starmer speech in its entirety, eschewing the normal PB option of second-hand reporting or pinching lines from X.
I can see why Tories didn't like it - it was really rather good, quite powerful, and did the business with knobs on. Of course he doesn't present as well as Blair, but that's a vacuous comparison.
On glittergate, Starmer responded very well. The protestor actually grabbed hold of him. If one uses one's imagination, that must have been briefly pretty scary.
The man is a potential next Prime Minister, it really shouldn't be so easy to potentially assault him. The same would have applied when it was Corbyn on the stage.
Our MPs remain pretty vulnerable despite events in recent years.
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
There was a big influx of new members (don't say Brexiteer entryists) into the Conservative Party recently. I wonder if Rishi might be persuaded to stay on for a few months in the hope that some memberships might lapse.
Seems a pretty remote hope as people will hang on, and others are likely to join, simply to get a say in the leadership election. Sunak could delay a leadership contest a bit post-General Election, but it'll be a matter of a handful of months only, and everyone knows that.
Don’t write off Sunak as Tory leader after the GE as he can stand as the change candidate in the leadership election.
Mostly the middle east is and has always been a lovely and civilised place. When it's not though it descends to a barbarism that I think is unparalleled elsewhere. The Pacific Islands, the South Americas, the Africans, and the most brutal Europeans would look away.
There is sadly barbarism in much of the world. There are horrendous things going on in Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Ethiopia, Sudan, Myanmar, Colombia, DR Congo, Yemen, Syria etc.
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
You continue to describe ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity, something recognised to be one of the most evil acts possible in the world. The UK has taken up arms to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world.
🤷♂️
Killings are much more evil. Burning people alive is much more evil. Decapitating people is much more evil.
Ethnic cleansing has been a reality across much of the world time and time again.
What did we do when the Germanys were expelled from Eastern Europe?
What did we do when the Jews were expelled from Iraq? Or Egypt? Or Iran? Or ....
There should be no killings, but relocations? It might be the least worst solution to all this.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
Irrespective of their policies, I'm puzzled by the notion of Arab national governments in 1943. Most of the ME was under UK or French admin/military occupation (or something very like it in the case of Egypt).
That seems a slightly odd point to make. The main point is that Jews were persecuted in the ME well before 1948. As an example from Iraq:
"In the 1930s, the situation of the Jews in Iraq deteriorated. Previously, the growing Iraqi Arab nationalist sentiment included Iraqi Jews as fellow Arabs,[44] but these views changed with the ongoing conflict in the Palestinian Mandate and the introduction of Nazi propaganda.[45] Despite protestations of their loyalty to Iraq, Iraqi Jews were increasingly subject to discrimination and anti-Jewish actions. In September 1934, following the appointment of Arshad al-Umari as the new minister of economics and communications, tens of Jews were dismissed from their posts in that ministry; and, subsequently, there were unofficial quotas of Jews that could be appointed in the civil service or admitted to secondary schools and colleges.[46] Zionist activity had continued covertly even after 1929, but in 1935 the last two Palestinian Jewish teachers were deported, and the president of the Zionist organization was put on trial and ultimately required to leave the country.[47]"
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
Hope everything's OK?
Quite an impressive video from Norwich City for Mental Health Day
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
You continue to describe ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity, something recognised to be one of the most evil acts possible in the world. The UK has taken up arms to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world.
🤷♂️
Killings are much more evil. Burning people alive is much more evil. Decapitating people is much more evil.
Ethnic cleansing has been a reality across much of the world time and time again.
What did we do when the Germanys were expelled from Eastern Europe?
What did we do when the Jews were expelled from Iraq? Or Egypt? Or Iran? Or ....
There should be no killings, but relocations? It might be the least worst solution to all this.
I think what you're saying is quite wrong - ethnic accommodation has been the rule.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
You appear to be describing (planned) ethnic cleaning. You repeatedly call for ethnic cleaning yourself, including a few posts up, so I presumed you were fine with ethnic cleansing.
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
OK I've done the unpleasant task of Twitter-searching Kfar Aza
I am satisfied that many unspeakable things happened there: whole families were burned to death, women dragged and raped, babies shot in their carriers, old people shot in their beds, and babies decapitated
This is being independently reported by news teams, soldiers, doctors and NGOs
It might still be all lies, but that becomes increasingly hard to believe
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
Hope everything's OK?
Oh yes it is, thanks. But, you know, no spring chicken. And it's a long way back for these Tories. Brexit and Boris have gutted them!
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
You appear to be describing (planned) ethnic cleaning. You repeatedly call for ethnic cleaning yourself, including a few posts up, so I presumed you were fine with ethnic cleansing.
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
Its a bad thing, but not a beyond the pale thing.
It might be a less bad thing than any other option though.
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
You continue to describe ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity, something recognised to be one of the most evil acts possible in the world. The UK has taken up arms to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world.
🤷♂️
Killings are much more evil. Burning people alive is much more evil. Decapitating people is much more evil.
Ethnic cleansing has been a reality across much of the world time and time again.
What did we do when the Germanys were expelled from Eastern Europe?
What did we do when the Jews were expelled from Iraq? Or Egypt? Or Iran? Or ....
There should be no killings, but relocations? It might be the least worst solution to all this.
I think what you're saying is quite wrong - ethnic accommodation has been the rule.
Accommodation for Arabs living in Gaza could be found in any of the ~17 Arab nation states then.
That's it, the information is out. It's so macabre that no one wanted to reveal it until they had 100% confirmation.
🔺 Infants and children under 2 years old were beheaded by Hamas in the Kibbutz of Kfar Aza. It is a horror, a massacre.
For those asking for the source. They are multiple: Israeli army, internal intelligence service and atrocious images which reached me and which I was able to cross-check. But the best source remains this: courageous journalists from the foreign press who were able to see / agreed to see with their own eyes the bodies in Kfar Aza.
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
You continue to describe ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity, something recognised to be one of the most evil acts possible in the world. The UK has taken up arms to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world.
🤷♂️
Killings are much more evil. Burning people alive is much more evil. Decapitating people is much more evil.
Ethnic cleansing has been a reality across much of the world time and time again.
What did we do when the Germanys were expelled from Eastern Europe?
What did we do when the Jews were expelled from Iraq? Or Egypt? Or Iran? Or ....
There should be no killings, but relocations? It might be the least worst solution to all this.
I think what you're saying is quite wrong - ethnic accommodation has been the rule.
Accommodation for Arabs living in Gaza could be found in any of the ~17 Arab nation states then.
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
Hope everything's OK?
Quite an impressive video from Norwich City for Mental Health Day
Oh wow, what an amazing video from NCFC. I was shocked at the one who was "missing" at the end - Really makes you think.
Yes a friend of mine, who people not close to him would never have suspected was ill, committed suicide in 2021. Outwardly he was the most chatty, at ease with himself bloke around.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
You appear to be describing (planned) ethnic cleaning. You repeatedly call for ethnic cleaning yourself, including a few posts up, so I presumed you were fine with ethnic cleansing.
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
Its a bad thing, but not a beyond the pale thing.
It might be a less bad thing than any other option though.
There are no "good" solutions here.
Think about what you have just said. Really think about it. Yuck.
"Protest or Power. That's why we changed our party."
A good line. Prepped for just such an occasion no doubt.
I have to say this particular protest group seems particularly barmy. Many people, me amongst them, are skeptical about citizen assemblies, but at least they are usually proposed to be about something specific. But to have a permanent one to tackle, essentially, everything, well then you really are just saying why even have elections at all.
Who gets to be on the citizen assembly? Anyone who wants to or would there be, er... elections?
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
Irrespective of their policies, I'm puzzled by the notion of Arab national governments in 1943. Most of the ME was under UK or French admin/military occupation (or something very like it in the case of Egypt).
That seems a slightly odd point to make. The main point is that Jews were persecuted in the ME well before 1948. As an example from Iraq:
"In the 1930s, the situation of the Jews in Iraq deteriorated. Previously, the growing Iraqi Arab nationalist sentiment included Iraqi Jews as fellow Arabs,[44] but these views changed with the ongoing conflict in the Palestinian Mandate and the introduction of Nazi propaganda.[45] Despite protestations of their loyalty to Iraq, Iraqi Jews were increasingly subject to discrimination and anti-Jewish actions. In September 1934, following the appointment of Arshad al-Umari as the new minister of economics and communications, tens of Jews were dismissed from their posts in that ministry; and, subsequently, there were unofficial quotas of Jews that could be appointed in the civil service or admitted to secondary schools and colleges.[46] Zionist activity had continued covertly even after 1929, but in 1935 the last two Palestinian Jewish teachers were deported, and the president of the Zionist organization was put on trial and ultimately required to leave the country.[47]"
Fair enough, but that is one state. Andz you two are arguing about government level policies. I just couldn't think of any other Arab states which qualified on both counts.
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
You continue to describe ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity, something recognised to be one of the most evil acts possible in the world. The UK has taken up arms to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world.
Depressing, isn’t it.
I even saw on Sunday someone, one of the saner posters here usually, refer to OKC as a Hamas enabler.
"Protest or Power. That's why we changed our party."
A good line. Prepped for just such an occasion no doubt.
I have to say this particular protest group seems particularly barmy. Many people, me amongst them, are skeptical about citizen assemblies, but at least they are usually proposed to be about something specific. But to have a permanent one to tackle, essentially, everything, well then you really are just saying why even have elections at all.
Who gets to be on the citizen assembly? Anyone who wants to or would there be, er... elections?
I’ll do it. Just me. Alone. I’ll save you all the work.
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
You continue to describe ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity, something recognised to be one of the most evil acts possible in the world. The UK has taken up arms to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world.
🤷♂️
Killings are much more evil. Burning people alive is much more evil. Decapitating people is much more evil.
Ethnic cleansing has been a reality across much of the world time and time again.
What did we do when the Germanys were expelled from Eastern Europe?
What did we do when the Jews were expelled from Iraq? Or Egypt? Or Iran? Or ....
There should be no killings, but relocations? It might be the least worst solution to all this.
I think what you're saying is quite wrong - ethnic accommodation has been the rule.
Accommodation for Arabs living in Gaza could be found in any of the ~17 Arab nation states then.
Clearly I had nothing to do with housing in mind.
Its not clear what you had in mind.
The land Israel controls is the only homeland for Jews on the planet, who have been persecuted and executed and annihilated by others across the Middle East and Europe and elsewhere. Its security comes first, before any other considerations.
If that's not possible with Palestinians living there, then the Palestinians need to go. Simple as. They are Arabs and there are plenty of other homelands for Arabs, there are no other homelands for Jews.
And the only reason a state called Palestine doesn't exist is because the Arab states rejected it, not because Israel did. Israel agreed with partition.
So the Arab states need to take responsibility for their own actions, and take in the Arab people who are currently without a state to live in.
I can't understand why the Guardian keep him on. It's not as is his cartoons are insightful or funny...
Everybody can say something ill judged, push the boundary and end up getting it wrong / overstepping the mark, but there does seem to be a consistent pattern to how often / what topics his cartoons end up in this territory.
Not one of his cartoons has ever even made me smile, let alone laugh. He's shite. His continued employment is a decided mystery, quite apart from the alleged racism
He has never tried to be funny, I think.
More a visceral appeal to the Angry Men In Corduroy Trousers With Bicycle Clips who man the Corbyn/Palestine stalls on the high street.
"Protest or Power. That's why we changed our party."
A good line. Prepped for just such an occasion no doubt.
I have to say this particular protest group seems particularly barmy. Many people, me amongst them, are skeptical about citizen assemblies, but at least they are usually proposed to be about something specific. But to have a permanent one to tackle, essentially, everything, well then you really are just saying why even have elections at all.
Who gets to be on the citizen assembly? Anyone who wants to or would there be, er... elections?
I’ll do it. Just me. Alone. I’ll save you all the work.
That's awfully kind of you. I'll PM you a list of all the things I'm allowing you to do, and those I forbid.
I'm remarkably content for Starmer to become PM, despite being a rightwinger. The Tories are obviously done, Labour need a go, I like the idea of Georgian new towns
I have just one request of the incoming Labour government. That I never ever ever have to listen to Keir Starmer speak, ever again. Thanks
Indeed he is is the ideal after dinner speaker for older members of Accrington Rotary on a wet Wednesday afternoon. Fine with me. He presents as kind, decent, honourable, family minded, a bit long winded and loyal. In current circumstances it'll do.
As we don't live in North Korea his speeches are unlikely to be compulsory viewing.
If you want lively speeches, plenty are available all over the world in the cause of justifying baby killers in the Middle East. Stick with 'One Nil To The Arsenal' Sir K.
Yep, it's fine. He's a boring speaker. It's not a big deal. I just won't everl isten to him in case I stab my eyes out with a blunt pencil
Who needs Arsenal jokes when we've got the real Arsenal?
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
You appear to be describing (planned) ethnic cleaning. You repeatedly call for ethnic cleaning yourself, including a few posts up, so I presumed you were fine with ethnic cleansing.
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
Its a bad thing, but not a beyond the pale thing.
It might be a less bad thing than any other option though.
There are no "good" solutions here.
Think about what you have just said. Really think about it. Yuck.
OK thought about it. Stand by it.
In a hierarchy of evil, which is more evil. Mass murdering and killing people? Or finding them somewhere else to live?
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
You continue to describe ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity, something recognised to be one of the most evil acts possible in the world. The UK has taken up arms to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world.
🤷♂️
Killings are much more evil. Burning people alive is much more evil. Decapitating people is much more evil.
Ethnic cleansing has been a reality across much of the world time and time again.
What did we do when the Germanys were expelled from Eastern Europe?
What did we do when the Jews were expelled from Iraq? Or Egypt? Or Iran? Or ....
There should be no killings, but relocations? It might be the least worst solution to all this.
I think what you're saying is quite wrong - ethnic accommodation has been the rule.
Accommodation for Arabs living in Gaza could be found in any of the ~17 Arab nation states then.
Clearly I had nothing to do with housing in mind.
Its not clear what you had in mind.
The land Israel controls is the only homeland for Jews on the planet, who have been persecuted and executed and annihilated by others across the Middle East and Europe and elsewhere. Its security comes first, before any other considerations.
If that's not possible with Palestinians living there, then the Palestinians need to go. Simple as. They are Arabs and there are plenty of other homelands for Arabs, there are no other homelands for Jews.
And the only reason a state called Palestine doesn't exist is because the Arab states rejected it, not because Israel did. Israel agreed with partition.
So the Arab states need to take responsibility for their own actions, and take in the Arab people who are currently without a state to live in.
What I had in mind was: Accommodation - a diplomatic agreement.
As SKS will be entering Downing St. on a generally downbeat note I suppose there's two ways this could go
1. He could surprise on the "up side". With everyone having such low expectations, maybe he'll actually be rather good at governmening and will be a pleasant surprise?
2. He and Labour's poll rating goes south pretty much from day one as he and they prove out of their depth and no where near ready for government (think what would have happened if Labour had somehow won power in 1987 or the Tories in 2001/2005)
I think option two is most likely, given the grim years we've got to come but you never know, we might get option one if we're lucky.
I suspect it's going to be a variation of the 2. Labour won't surprise to the upside but the forthcoming navel gazing as Suella Braverman becomes Tory party leader will ensure that Labour will be very much the preferred option for a lot of people...
Much in the way Bozo won in 2019 because Corbyn was the other option come 2028/9 Labour will do well because the other option is so hideous...
Much depends on the “shape” of the residual parliamentary Conservative Party. 200-230 of them in the right places, and a sniff of a fast return, and they might pick a winner.
It is hard to see a situation where both candidates MPs put through to the members' ballot are from the sensible wing given that, unless the 1922 Committee really get tough on nomination requirements, one-third of MPs is the most you need to get on the ballot (Leadsom and Hunt both got second place with a quarter of MPs, Truss got just under a third).
Whilst the 1922 Committee did deliberately lock out the membership in October 2022 to get Truss out quick before she did further damage, it is hard to see that happening in opposition where the urgency just isn't there.
On that basis, there will be a candidate from the loony wing, and they will have a very good chance of winning amongst the membership, whether the bulk of Tory MPs like it or not. It will take a defeat for that candidate in 2028 for sentiment in the party to change, I suspect. I further suspect the next Tory PM is not yet in Parliament.
'I will probably not see this again in my lifetime' is normally a bittersweet kind of a thought to have - but when the 'this' is a Conservative Government there's very little 'bitter' about it.
Hope everything's OK?
Quite an impressive video from Norwich City for Mental Health Day
Oh wow, what an amazing video from NCFC. I was shocked at the one who was "missing" at the end - Really makes you think.
Yes a friend of mine, who people not close to him would never have suspected was ill, committed suicide in 2021. Outwardly he was the most chatty, at ease with himself bloke around.
You just never know do you? Perhaps sometimes it's people who overcompensate with exuberance that are the one's you need to watch?
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
You appear to be describing (planned) ethnic cleaning. You repeatedly call for ethnic cleaning yourself, including a few posts up, so I presumed you were fine with ethnic cleansing.
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
Its a bad thing, but not a beyond the pale thing.
It might be a less bad thing than any other option though.
There are no "good" solutions here.
You think Palestinian and Jew cannot live together, so the Palestinians should be expelled from an area. I presume you were quoting Azzam Pasha about “driving the Jews into the sea”. He thought Palestinian and Jew could not live together, so the Jews should be expelled from an area. You both describe ethnic cleansing. You look morally equivalent to me.
There are solutions that do not involve war crimes. Right now, Hamas don’t believe that and some in Israel don’t believe that, but let us hope there is a path forwards.
"Protest or Power. That's why we changed our party."
A good line. Prepped for just such an occasion no doubt.
I have to say this particular protest group seems particularly barmy. Many people, me amongst them, are skeptical about citizen assemblies, but at least they are usually proposed to be about something specific. But to have a permanent one to tackle, essentially, everything, well then you really are just saying why even have elections at all.
Who gets to be on the citizen assembly? Anyone who wants to or would there be, er... elections?
Democratic lottery apparently. But I presume that means you cannot turn down a place, so unlike being an MP you really could not resign.
I'll be charitable and call it a bloody barmy idea, even if one thinks things like a Citizen Assembly to tackle specific issues are a good idea.
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
You continue to describe ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity, something recognised to be one of the most evil acts possible in the world. The UK has taken up arms to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world.
🤷♂️
Killings are much more evil. Burning people alive is much more evil. Decapitating people is much more evil.
Ethnic cleansing has been a reality across much of the world time and time again.
What did we do when the Germanys were expelled from Eastern Europe?
What did we do when the Jews were expelled from Iraq? Or Egypt? Or Iran? Or ....
There should be no killings, but relocations? It might be the least worst solution to all this.
I think what you're saying is quite wrong - ethnic accommodation has been the rule.
Accommodation for Arabs living in Gaza could be found in any of the ~17 Arab nation states then.
Clearly I had nothing to do with housing in mind.
Its not clear what you had in mind.
The land Israel controls is the only homeland for Jews on the planet, who have been persecuted and executed and annihilated by others across the Middle East and Europe and elsewhere. Its security comes first, before any other considerations.
If that's not possible with Palestinians living there, then the Palestinians need to go. Simple as. They are Arabs and there are plenty of other homelands for Arabs, there are no other homelands for Jews.
And the only reason a state called Palestine doesn't exist is because the Arab states rejected it, not because Israel did. Israel agreed with partition.
So the Arab states need to take responsibility for their own actions, and take in the Arab people who are currently without a state to live in.
What I had in mind was: Accommodation - a diplomatic agreement.
Yes, and I've said ideally an agreement should be reached with Egypt to take the ex-Egyptian populace who currently lives in Gaza.
There are reports and pictures of what look like children burnt to death in their beds. The sort of thing we saw in the Bosnian war.
Meanwhile in Britain children at Jewish schools in North London are being told not to wear any identifying badges or uniform jackets so as to minimise the risk of attack. And in Sydney demonstrators shout "gas the Jews'.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
Irrespective of their policies, I'm puzzled by the notion of Arab national governments in 1943. Most of the ME was under UK or French admin/military occupation (or something very like it in the case of Egypt).
That seems a slightly odd point to make. The main point is that Jews were persecuted in the ME well before 1948. As an example from Iraq:
"In the 1930s, the situation of the Jews in Iraq deteriorated. Previously, the growing Iraqi Arab nationalist sentiment included Iraqi Jews as fellow Arabs,[44] but these views changed with the ongoing conflict in the Palestinian Mandate and the introduction of Nazi propaganda.[45] Despite protestations of their loyalty to Iraq, Iraqi Jews were increasingly subject to discrimination and anti-Jewish actions. In September 1934, following the appointment of Arshad al-Umari as the new minister of economics and communications, tens of Jews were dismissed from their posts in that ministry; and, subsequently, there were unofficial quotas of Jews that could be appointed in the civil service or admitted to secondary schools and colleges.[46] Zionist activity had continued covertly even after 1929, but in 1935 the last two Palestinian Jewish teachers were deported, and the president of the Zionist organization was put on trial and ultimately required to leave the country.[47]"
Fair enough, but that is one state. Andz you two are arguing about government level policies. I just couldn't think of any other Arab states which qualified on both counts.
The Arab armies would have done very unpleasant things to the Jewish population, had they won, in 1947/8.
Well, there are not many others who would be outright worse, but given the general state of the world those places will still have been on there in the past, or will be now.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
You appear to be describing (planned) ethnic cleaning. You repeatedly call for ethnic cleaning yourself, including a few posts up, so I presumed you were fine with ethnic cleansing.
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
Its a bad thing, but not a beyond the pale thing.
It might be a less bad thing than any other option though.
There are no "good" solutions here.
You think Palestinian and Jew cannot live together, so the Palestinians should be expelled from an area. I presume you were quoting Azzam Pasha about “driving the Jews into the sea”. He thought Palestinian and Jew could not live together, so the Jews should be expelled from an area. You both describe ethnic cleansing. You look morally equivalent to me.
There are solutions that do not involve war crimes. Right now, Hamas don’t believe that and some in Israel don’t believe that, but let us hope there is a path forwards.
I'm not suggesting the Palestinians go into the sea, I'm suggesting they go into Egypt.
You don't see the difference there?
One is suggesting murder, the other moving people just a few miles into another part of the country they came from [Gaza was Egypt before Israel won it in a defensive war].
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
You appear to be describing (planned) ethnic cleaning. You repeatedly call for ethnic cleaning yourself, including a few posts up, so I presumed you were fine with ethnic cleansing.
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
Its a bad thing, but not a beyond the pale thing.
It might be a less bad thing than any other option though.
There are no "good" solutions here.
Think about what you have just said. Really think about it. Yuck.
OK thought about it. Stand by it.
In a hierarchy of evil, which is more evil. Mass murdering and killing people? Or finding them somewhere else to live?
“Finding them somewhere else to live”? Like the Serbs were for the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo? Jolly nice of them. I mean there’s a whole country called Albania for them to live in.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
You appear to be describing (planned) ethnic cleaning. You repeatedly call for ethnic cleaning yourself, including a few posts up, so I presumed you were fine with ethnic cleansing.
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
Its a bad thing, but not a beyond the pale thing.
It might be a less bad thing than any other option though.
There are no "good" solutions here.
You think Palestinian and Jew cannot live together, so the Palestinians should be expelled from an area. I presume you were quoting Azzam Pasha about “driving the Jews into the sea”. He thought Palestinian and Jew could not live together, so the Jews should be expelled from an area. You both describe ethnic cleansing.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
You appear to be describing (planned) ethnic cleaning. You repeatedly call for ethnic cleaning yourself, including a few posts up, so I presumed you were fine with ethnic cleansing.
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
Its a bad thing, but not a beyond the pale thing.
It might be a less bad thing than any other option though.
There are no "good" solutions here.
Think about what you have just said. Really think about it. Yuck.
OK thought about it. Stand by it.
In a hierarchy of evil, which is more evil. Mass murdering and killing people? Or finding them somewhere else to live?
I’m not sure Israel will move toward anything remotely like a two state solution after stuff like this. There’s just no coming back from those levels of depravity
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
"Two states" has always been a bit of a misnomer. There are 18 states in the Middle East alone.
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
You continue to describe ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity, something recognised to be one of the most evil acts possible in the world. The UK has taken up arms to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world.
🤷♂️
Killings are much more evil. Burning people alive is much more evil. Decapitating people is much more evil.
Ethnic cleansing has been a reality across much of the world time and time again.
What did we do when the Germanys were expelled from Eastern Europe?
What did we do when the Jews were expelled from Iraq? Or Egypt? Or Iran? Or ....
There should be no killings, but relocations? It might be the least worst solution to all this.
I think what you're saying is quite wrong - ethnic accommodation has been the rule.
Accommodation for Arabs living in Gaza could be found in any of the ~17 Arab nation states then.
Clearly I had nothing to do with housing in mind.
Its not clear what you had in mind.
The land Israel controls is the only homeland for Jews on the planet, who have been persecuted and executed and annihilated by others across the Middle East and Europe and elsewhere. Its security comes first, before any other considerations.
If that's not possible with Palestinians living there, then the Palestinians need to go. Simple as. They are Arabs and there are plenty of other homelands for Arabs, there are no other homelands for Jews.
And the only reason a state called Palestine doesn't exist is because the Arab states rejected it, not because Israel did. Israel agreed with partition.
So the Arab states need to take responsibility for their own actions, and take in the Arab people who are currently without a state to live in.
What I had in mind was: Accommodation - a diplomatic agreement.
Yes, and I've said ideally an agreement should be reached with Egypt to take the ex-Egyptian populace who currently lives in Gaza.
I've no real view on that, but if the populations of Gaza wishes to relocate to Egypt then that'd be a win.
"Protest or Power. That's why we changed our party."
A good line. Prepped for just such an occasion no doubt.
I have to say this particular protest group seems particularly barmy. Many people, me amongst them, are skeptical about citizen assemblies, but at least they are usually proposed to be about something specific. But to have a permanent one to tackle, essentially, everything, well then you really are just saying why even have elections at all.
Who gets to be on the citizen assembly? Anyone who wants to or would there be, er... elections?
Democratic lottery apparently. But I presume that means you cannot turn down a place, so unlike being an MP you really could not resign.
I'll be charitable and call it a bloody barmy idea, even if one thinks things like a Citizen Assembly to tackle specific issues are a good idea.
Can't we just offer up PB.com to run the country?
It wouldn't always be plain-sailing, there'd be disputes, sure, even resignations, but we'd surely do a lot better than the current mob?
Comments
Meanwhile in Tory-land it just continues to be plain wrong. Sunak is very slightly against the tide currently, but I neither believe he can change things nor believe that he has any real intention of doing so.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2023/oct/04/steve-bell-rishi-sunak-scrap-hs2-cartoon
"In the year 2023, a huge crowd of people holding Palestinian flags outside the Sydney Opera House in Australia are chanting “gas the Jews.”
They’re just resisting occupation, guys!"
https://x.com/greg_price11/status/1711534747589959846?s=20
This isn't just incitement to violence, it is incitement to genocide. Does Australia not have any laws about this?
Nowhere near enough, especially if our population continues to grow [which it will] then we need far, far, far more than that. The country needs about 13 million extra houses to catch up with how many France has with a comparable population, plus extra to cope with population growth.
But its far better than Sunak is promising.
10 million over the next decade, about a million a year, to end and reverse our housing shortage should be the ambition.
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
But it's Labour promising to do what should be a naturally conservative thing to do.
Shows how the Conservatives have lost their way, really.
Only click if you can stomach it
GRAPHIC WARNING⚠️ DEVASTATING: Corpses of Israeli Man, women and children who were burned alive by Hamas Palestinian terrorists. Hamas = ISIS.
https://x.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1711756827556249638?s=20
https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1711763804172714021?s=20
Yet people will probably still head off on their pro Palestinian marches tonight, and think nothing of it
How have the Tories managed to throw it away like this? Once they ditched Boris it was all over
I’m afraid he never recovered. In all likelihood he died in the ambulance and was being kept alive by the ventilator for four days. We prayed for a miracle but it never came.
I've never seen the Claws of Axos. Or Inferno. Or - and lets be honest - anything Troughton or Hartnell did (I know, i'll have my card taken away from me) other than The Krotons.
Very sorry to hear this. RIP to your friend.
"🚨 IDF confirms to Insider that soldiers found the decapitated bodies of babies at Kfar Aza near the Gaza border. Story to follow."
https://twitter.com/mrjoshz/status/1711760972296200206
If this story is validated, then the Israelis will want to destroy Gaza entirely
BUT we still haven't seen "proof"
After this, Palestinians ought to be able to find a home in 17 of them.
The idea that Israel should continue to host Palestinians is preposterous, its time for anyone who doesn't want to live in Gaza peacefully with Israel to get the hell out of Israel.
I can see why Tories didn't like it - it was really rather good, quite powerful, and did the business with knobs on. Of course he doesn't present as well as Blair, but that's a vacuous comparison.
On glittergate, Starmer responded very well. The protestor actually grabbed hold of him. If one uses one's imagination, that must have been briefly pretty scary.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
https://youtu.be/tX8TgVR33KM?si=8hMIXPynQRTithbn
Look at this picture. Describe what Hamas did here.
https://x.com/TheMossadIL/status/1711755160156794918?s=20
In response to earlier messages about the proof that is required. I am not sure what you are expecting for proof? No, I haven't checked all the sources, I don't have time for that. However, this seems pretty much inline with the rest of the barbarism demonstrated by Hamas.
Irrespective of their policies, I'm puzzled by the notion of Arab national governments in 1943. Most of the ME was under UK or French admin/military occupation (or something very like it in the case of Egypt).
Consider DR Congo: https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/11/1078472
Considerably better than the quality of their football these days.
"In the liberated kibbutz of Kfar-Aza, a container with charred bodies of children and infants was found, some of them decapitated.
Many sources are confirming this information. If there is video confirmation, it will be posted only on Telegram."
https://twitter.com/mediametrio/status/1711769816846020937
I have to say this particular protest group seems particularly barmy. Many people, me amongst them, are skeptical about citizen assemblies, but at least they are usually proposed to be about something specific. But to have a permanent one to tackle, essentially, everything, well then you really are just saying why even have elections at all.
Iraq became independent in 1932 and in 1941 there were massacres of Jews as well as the spread of Nazi propaganda in Iraq.
See this from the Holocaust Encyclopaedia: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-farhud
There are other examples from across the Middle East around that decade. The idea it only happened in Germany and German controlled land is ignorance, not reality.
This also spread across the Middle East post-1945 too which would be rounded to "about 80 years ago"
Our MPs remain pretty vulnerable despite events in recent years.
Killings are much more evil. Burning people alive is much more evil. Decapitating people is much more evil.
Ethnic cleansing has been a reality across much of the world time and time again.
What did we do when the Germanys were expelled from Eastern Europe?
What did we do when the Jews were expelled from Iraq? Or Egypt? Or Iran? Or ....
There should be no killings, but relocations? It might be the least worst solution to all this.
"In the 1930s, the situation of the Jews in Iraq deteriorated. Previously, the growing Iraqi Arab nationalist sentiment included Iraqi Jews as fellow Arabs,[44] but these views changed with the ongoing conflict in the Palestinian Mandate and the introduction of Nazi propaganda.[45] Despite protestations of their loyalty to Iraq, Iraqi Jews were increasingly subject to discrimination and anti-Jewish actions. In September 1934, following the appointment of Arshad al-Umari as the new minister of economics and communications, tens of Jews were dismissed from their posts in that ministry; and, subsequently, there were unofficial quotas of Jews that could be appointed in the civil service or admitted to secondary schools and colleges.[46] Zionist activity had continued covertly even after 1929, but in 1935 the last two Palestinian Jewish teachers were deported, and the president of the Zionist organization was put on trial and ultimately required to leave the country.[47]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iraq
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
I am satisfied that many unspeakable things happened there: whole families were burned to death, women dragged and raped, babies shot in their carriers, old people shot in their beds, and babies decapitated
This is being independently reported by news teams, soldiers, doctors and NGOs
It might still be all lies, but that becomes increasingly hard to believe
It might be a less bad thing than any other option though.
There are no "good" solutions here.
That's it, the information is out. It's so macabre that no one wanted to reveal it until they had 100% confirmation.
🔺 Infants and children under 2 years old were beheaded by Hamas in the Kibbutz of Kfar Aza. It is a horror, a massacre.
For those asking for the source. They are multiple: Israeli army, internal intelligence service and atrocious images which reached me and which I was able to cross-check. But the best source remains this: courageous journalists from the foreign press who were able to see / agreed to see with their own eyes the bodies in Kfar Aza.
https://x.com/margothaddad/status/1711756690574479651?s=20
I even saw on Sunday someone, one of the saner posters here usually, refer to OKC as a Hamas enabler.
It will be white feathers next.
Russia failed to secure a seat on the United Nations Human Rights Council for the term from 2024 to 2026
https://x.com/ukraine_map/status/1711778046401720651?s=20
The land Israel controls is the only homeland for Jews on the planet, who have been persecuted and executed and annihilated by others across the Middle East and Europe and elsewhere. Its security comes first, before any other considerations.
If that's not possible with Palestinians living there, then the Palestinians need to go. Simple as. They are Arabs and there are plenty of other homelands for Arabs, there are no other homelands for Jews.
And the only reason a state called Palestine doesn't exist is because the Arab states rejected it, not because Israel did. Israel agreed with partition.
So the Arab states need to take responsibility for their own actions, and take in the Arab people who are currently without a state to live in.
More a visceral appeal to the Angry Men In Corduroy Trousers With Bicycle Clips who man the Corbyn/Palestine stalls on the high street.
Ahem.
In a hierarchy of evil, which is more evil. Mass murdering and killing people? Or finding them somewhere else to live?
There are solutions that do not involve war crimes. Right now, Hamas don’t believe that and some in Israel don’t believe that, but let us hope there is a path forwards.
I'll be charitable and call it a bloody barmy idea, even if one thinks things like a Citizen Assembly to tackle specific issues are a good idea.
Meanwhile in Britain children at Jewish schools in North London are being told not to wear any identifying badges or uniform jackets so as to minimise the risk of attack. And in Sydney demonstrators shout "gas the Jews'.
It is 2023.
You don't see the difference there?
One is suggesting murder, the other moving people just a few miles into another part of the country they came from [Gaza was Egypt before Israel won it in a defensive war].
It wouldn't always be plain-sailing, there'd be disputes, sure, even resignations, but we'd surely do a lot better than the current mob?