You can see the danger on their faces. Really serious
In my darker moments I think we are slipping increasingly into a world war.
So do I. Mind you if it does I’ve had a pretty nice life and it is only the shit years at the end to come, and it will be quick and for those left it will probably be like the TV film, Threads.
How do you make sure it is quick rather than the Threads bit??
A familiar feature of stories about war crimes is that they are often provoked by atrocity stories. These are in turn often created by misunderstanding the effects that fire, high explosives and animal depredations have on corpses.
Breaker Morant was convinced that local Boer resistance was committing various atrocities - they weren’t, as it happens. But he was so convinced that he started commuting war crimes of his own.
The photos ALREADY released make it very plain that Hamas were shooting babies in their cribs and children in their beds, and burning families alive
Meanwhile multiple independent journalists from respectable organisations are saying yes, the worst stories are true
Does anyone know if there was anything ISIS was alleged to have done that subsequently turned out to be exaggerated or mistaken? Might be a more relevant precedent than the Boer War.
The other thought that occurs is whether there were any atrocities that ISIS committed that they didn't proudly exhibit themselves?
In the case of ISIS, much like the Imperial Japanese Army, they seem to have read their own press and decided “we can do worse than that”
The point I was making was that before everyone starts going all @Leon and advocating some light recreational genocide, a bit of thinking is a good idea.
Otherwise you end up in the Peruvian War with the Shining Path. There is that nice video of the guy they caught after he murdered the local mayor and blew up the body. So, for LOLs, they tied him to a chair. And laid a spiral of slow fuse round and round. Ending with some dynamite under the chair. So he got to contemplate… and that’s a fraction of how bad it got, in the end.
The Shining Path really were "human animals." They got everything that was coming to them.
You can see the danger on their faces. Really serious
In my darker moments I think we are slipping increasingly into a world war.
It does feel like it. I have not lived through a period like this - most of us millennials have no idea what to expect. But it feels… significant. Like the existing security order has shifted
Yeh. Just feels like all the anchors are slipping under unprecedented high seas.
You can see the danger on their faces. Really serious
In my darker moments I think we are slipping increasingly into a world war.
We are a long way further from a world war than we were forty or fifty years ago. I remember how terrifying things were right up to the end of the Cold War.
But now Russia is exhausting itself pointlessly in Ukraine and China is too cautious to invade Taiwan whatever they say. The Middle East is violent and unstable, as is much of black Africa, but they always were. There's lots to get worried about in the world, and many terrible things happening, but there won't be a World War III.
I’ve also seen horrific comments from pro Palestinian protestors in London being filmed saying utterly horrific things to the Jewish community. They all need to be identified.
@lisaocarroll BREAKING: EU has just sent formal letter to X owner Elon Musk over "indications" that his "platform is being used to disseminate illegal content and disinformation in the EU" in the wake of Hamas's attack on Israel.
@JoeBLynam This is as strongly worded a warning from the EU for any digital platform that I have seen. It also gives a clear 24 hours for Mr Musk to respond – something I’ve also not seen before.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
It seems that to be on side you have to want Hamas destroyed regardless of how many civilians die in Gaza . Do these people seriously think that a huge loss of civilians there won’t act as a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism . And what happens in the West Bank .
All these arguments could have been used against fighting World War 2 against the Nazis. Do you think that was wrong?
Oh God here we go . That was clearly a different situation. It’s clear that Hamas doesn’t have the capability to invade Israel and comparing this with WW2 is being done to give those making the comparison a free pass as the bodies pile up .
You can see the danger on their faces. Really serious
In my darker moments I think we are slipping increasingly into a world war.
So do I. Mind you if it does I’ve had a pretty nice life and it is only the shit years at the end to come, and it will be quick and for those left it will probably be like the TV film, Threads.
How do you make sure it is quick rather than the Threads bit??
I’m making an assumption in my case it would be quick, as I live within relative close proximity to Newcastle but live not too far from a large city or a miilitary base
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many Israeli civilian casualties are acceptable to you?
None ! I find it really annoying that anytime anyone is worried about civilian casualties in Gaza they’re portrayed as not caring about the Israeli deaths . You can be disgusted with what’s happened and still not want to see the bodies piling up in Gaza .
So you agree Hamas should be destroyed in full then? Complete and utter defeat, like happened to the Tamils?
Or are you talking out of both sides of your mouth?
In an ideal world Hamas no longer exists but that’s not the world we live in . I do not want to see thousands of civilian deaths . Jeez it’s like some couldn’t care less if hundreds of thousands are killed in Gaza. How many children need to die ! I’m appalled at what’s happened and sorry I just don’t want to see thousands of children killed in Gaza to add to the horror .
Hundreds of thousands die in war, yes. At least a quarter of a million have died in Ukraine.
That's why you shouldn't start them.
I could easily see hundreds of thousands of casualties in Gaza in this conflict, and each and every one of them would be the responsibility of Hamas for starting the conflict.
Which is why the humane thing to do is to give people an opportunity to flee the conflict, and to aid Israel to defeat Hamas as swiftly and accurately as possible, so that Hamas are destroyed and innocent Gazans ideally are not.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many Israeli civilian casualties are acceptable to you?
None ! I find it really annoying that anytime anyone is worried about civilian casualties in Gaza they’re portrayed as not caring about the Israeli deaths . You can be disgusted with what’s happened and still not want to see the bodies piling up in Gaza .
It's when people only state their concern about the civilian casualties on one side. Particularly when it's the side that's just committed various atrocities. The truth is the only side that we should have concern for are the innocent civilians on *both* sides - and that means Palestinians and Israelis.
I would love there to be an easy answer to this. Heck, I'd love *any* answer. But I fear some on here would criticise any response Israel makes, whilst ignoring what's just occurred.
If this happened in the UK, would you really call on us not to respond?
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
It seems that to be on side you have to want Hamas destroyed regardless of how many civilians die in Gaza . Do these people seriously think that a huge loss of civilians there won’t act as a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism . And what happens in the West Bank .
All these arguments could have been used against fighting World War 2 against the Nazis. Do you think that was wrong?
Oh God here we go . That was clearly a different situation. It’s clear that Hamas doesn’t have the capability to invade Israel and comparing this with WW2 is being done to give those making the comparison a free pass as the bodies pile up .
What the actual fuck? Hamas just did invade Israel!
They need to be destroyed. That's what happens in war, they chose the war.
@lisaocarroll BREAKING: EU has just sent formal letter to X owner Elon Musk over "indications" that his "platform is being used to disseminate illegal content and disinformation in the EU" in the wake of Hamas's attack on Israel.
@JoeBLynam This is as strongly worded a warning from the EU for any digital platform that I have seen. It also gives a clear 24 hours for Mr Musk to respond – something I’ve also not seen before.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
What do you think you reaction of the Arab world would be (along with the rest if the international community) ?
Setting aside any moral considerations, your idea just wouldn't end the conflict. Quite the opposite. No one was left who cared enough to avenge the Tamils - and the mass killings at the end of the conflict were largely away from the view of the world; that really would not be the case here.
A familiar feature of stories about war crimes is that they are often provoked by atrocity stories. These are in turn often created by misunderstanding the effects that fire, high explosives and animal depredations have on corpses.
Breaker Morant was convinced that local Boer resistance was committing various atrocities - they weren’t, as it happens. But he was so convinced that he started commuting war crimes of his own.
The photos ALREADY released make it very plain that Hamas were shooting babies in their cribs and children in their beds, and burning families alive
Meanwhile multiple independent journalists from respectable organisations are saying yes, the worst stories are true
Does anyone know if there was anything ISIS was alleged to have done that subsequently turned out to be exaggerated or mistaken? Might be a more relevant precedent than the Boer War.
The other thought that occurs is whether there were any atrocities that ISIS committed that they didn't proudly exhibit themselves?
In the case of ISIS, much like the Imperial Japanese Army, they seem to have read their own press and decided “we can do worse than that”
The point I was making was that before everyone starts going all @Leon and advocating some light recreational genocide, a bit of thinking is a good idea.
Otherwise you end up in the Peruvian War with the Shining Path. There is that nice video of the guy they caught after he murdered the local mayor and blew up the body. So, for LOLs, they tied him to a chair. And laid a spiral of slow fuse round and round. Ending with some dynamite under the chair. So he got to contemplate… and that’s a fraction of how bad it got, in the end.
The Shining Path really were "human animals." They got everything that was coming to them.
“But this being has a human shape, Gurney, and deserves human doubt.”
I’ve met people who did things in that war. One in particular, I’m thinking of…. A danger to his own family, among other things.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
It seems that to be on side you have to want Hamas destroyed regardless of how many civilians die in Gaza . Do these people seriously think that a huge loss of civilians there won’t act as a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism . And what happens in the West Bank .
Hamas are to blame for each and every Gazan death in this conflict.
I want as few civilians as possible to die, and a humanitarian way out for civilians as there are in other conflicts.
But Hamas need to be destroyed, yes.
When at war, then winning the war is the priority.
And Israel has no obligation to provide air or comfort to the enemy.
A scenario where two million peaceful Palestinians cross to border to Egypt, leaving behind card-carrying members of Hamas to fight it out, is laughable.
You keep saying this is what you "want" to squirrel out of fact your solution will see tens of thousands of children killed.
At best, you turbocharge Hamas recruitment and lose thousands of IDF personnel in the assault. At worst, civilians start starving to death and you lose the moral high ground, and then it becomes an existential crisis for Israel as other countries get involved.
That's why the US needs to come up with a second option for retaliation, rather than a ground invasion.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many Israeli civilian casualties are acceptable to you?
None ! I find it really annoying that anytime anyone is worried about civilian casualties in Gaza they’re portrayed as not caring about the Israeli deaths . You can be disgusted with what’s happened and still not want to see the bodies piling up in Gaza .
It's when people only state their concern about the civilian casualties on one side. Particularly when it's the side that's just committed various atrocities. The truth is the only side that we should have concern for are the innocent civilians on *both* sides - and that means Palestinians and Israelis.
I would love there to be an easy answer to this. Heck, I'd love *any* answer. But I fear some on here would criticise any response Israel makes, whilst ignoring what's just occurred.
If this happened in the UK, would you really call on us not to respond?
If it happened in the UK, the caring, pacifist, element of the Left, would certainly be drawing attention to all of our sins and crimes that had "provoked" the atrocity. I could write the things that Owen Jones, Margaret Chapman, Jermey Corbyn etc. would be saying in response.
@lisaocarroll BREAKING: EU has just sent formal letter to X owner Elon Musk over "indications" that his "platform is being used to disseminate illegal content and disinformation in the EU" in the wake of Hamas's attack on Israel.
@JoeBLynam This is as strongly worded a warning from the EU for any digital platform that I have seen. It also gives a clear 24 hours for Mr Musk to respond – something I’ve also not seen before.
If he loses the EU as a territory, it may just dent his valuation a bit.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
It seems that to be on side you have to want Hamas destroyed regardless of how many civilians die in Gaza . Do these people seriously think that a huge loss of civilians there won’t act as a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism . And what happens in the West Bank .
Hamas are to blame for each and every Gazan death in this conflict.
I want as few civilians as possible to die, and a humanitarian way out for civilians as there are in other conflicts.
But Hamas need to be destroyed, yes.
When at war, then winning the war is the priority.
And Israel has no obligation to provide air or comfort to the enemy.
A scenario where two million peaceful Palestinians cross to border to Egypt, leaving behind card-carrying members of Hamas to fight it out, is laughable.
You keep saying this is what you "want" to squirrel out of fact your solution will see tens of thousands of children killed.
At best, you turbocharge Hamas recruitment and lose thousands of IDF personnel in the assault. At worst, civilians start starving to death and you lose the moral high ground, and then it becomes an existential crisis for Israel as other countries get involved.
That's why the US needs to come up with a second option for retaliation, rather than a ground invasion.
Its not possible to have a bloodless war.
If Israel starts deliberately targetting civilians then that would be abhorrent. They don't do that though.
If they get caught in the crossfire, then that's tragic but part of warfare. How many innocent people did we kill in Iraq, or Afghanistan when we went to war?
Hamas started this war, Israel didn't. Israel need to win it.
It amazing how fast Owen Jones is so quick to organise online pile-on whenever he perceives somebody has said unacceptable, but if he is challenged, he throws a wobbler and talks over everybody.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
It seems that to be on side you have to want Hamas destroyed regardless of how many civilians die in Gaza . Do these people seriously think that a huge loss of civilians there won’t act as a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism . And what happens in the West Bank .
Hamas are to blame for each and every Gazan death in this conflict.
I want as few civilians as possible to die, and a humanitarian way out for civilians as there are in other conflicts.
But Hamas need to be destroyed, yes.
When at war, then winning the war is the priority.
And Israel has no obligation to provide air or comfort to the enemy.
A scenario where two million peaceful Palestinians cross to border to Egypt, leaving behind card-carrying members of Hamas to fight it out, is laughable.
You keep saying this is what you "want" to squirrel out of fact your solution will see tens of thousands of children killed.
At best, you turbocharge Hamas recruitment and lose thousands of IDF personnel in the assault. At worst, civilians start starving to death and you lose the moral high ground, and then it becomes an existential crisis for Israel as other countries get involved.
That's why the US needs to come up with a second option for retaliation, rather than a ground invasion.
I suspect that, right now, the US and its allies like us are focused on keeping Israel at least within the laws of armed conflict, and then supporting what it does. I can’t tell you what I’d want done as PM if a proportionate number of Brits had been murdered, and babies beheaded, but it wouldn’t be pleasant, and I’d need to be talked down by our allies because the Cabinet would be in the same place.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many Israeli civilian casualties are acceptable to you?
None ! I find it really annoying that anytime anyone is worried about civilian casualties in Gaza they’re portrayed as not caring about the Israeli deaths . You can be disgusted with what’s happened and still not want to see the bodies piling up in Gaza .
It's when people only state their concern about the civilian casualties on one side. Particularly when it's the side that's just committed various atrocities. The truth is the only side that we should have concern for are the innocent civilians on *both* sides - and that means Palestinians and Israelis.
I would love there to be an easy answer to this. Heck, I'd love *any* answer. But I fear some on here would criticise any response Israel makes, whilst ignoring what's just occurred.
If this happened in the UK, would you really call on us not to respond?
Hamas want a bloodbath in an attempt to draw in other countries . They’ve clearly planned this knowing that Gaza will face a huge bombardment. I appreciate your response and I understand that Israel has to respond but I’m hoping they can do so in a way that doesn’t lead to a nightmare scenario . Egypt need to do something , can the west not agree to give them aid and support to open the border .
I realise that this could be a tweet from any day of the week, but he is particularly odious on this occasion.
What is the attention seeking knobhead saying? He is doing a Jezza tribute act on Israel / Palestine conflict?
Yep, opened with 'I have an Israeli friend', then straight to the Novara Media handbook. Shouting down a visibly distressed Margaret Hodge, Sophy Ridge tried to intervene and tell him to button it, but he just carried on bellowing at both women.
Much depends on the economy, if it grows and inflation falls under his premiership and more own homes his personality will be less of an in issue. If not it will
I realise that this could be a tweet from any day of the week, but he is particularly odious on this occasion.
What is the attention seeking knobhead saying? He is doing a Jezza tribute act on Israel / Palestine conflict?
Yep, opened with 'I have an Israeli friend', then straight to the Novara Media handbook. Shouting down a visibly distressed Margaret Hodge, Sophy Ridge tried to intervene and tell him to button it, but he just carried on bellowing at both women.
Rancid little misogynist.
The Novara Media crew have not covered themselves with glory over this.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many Israeli civilian casualties are acceptable to you?
None ! I find it really annoying that anytime anyone is worried about civilian casualties in Gaza they’re portrayed as not caring about the Israeli deaths . You can be disgusted with what’s happened and still not want to see the bodies piling up in Gaza .
It's when people only state their concern about the civilian casualties on one side. Particularly when it's the side that's just committed various atrocities. The truth is the only side that we should have concern for are the innocent civilians on *both* sides - and that means Palestinians and Israelis.
I would love there to be an easy answer to this. Heck, I'd love *any* answer. But I fear some on here would criticise any response Israel makes, whilst ignoring what's just occurred.
If this happened in the UK, would you really call on us not to respond?
Hamas want a bloodbath in an attempt to draw in other countries . They’ve clearly planned this knowing that Gaza will face a huge bombardment. I appreciate your response and I understand that Israel has to respond but I’m hoping they can do so in a way that doesn’t lead to a nightmare scenario . Egypt need to do something , can the west not agree to give them aid and support to open the border .
Hamas wants a bloodbath, Russia wants a bloodbath.
The consistent thing is that both must be defeated until they surrender in full unconditionally.
Just because they've planned for war, doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't lose it.
Egypt opening the border for one-way traffic (not for arms heading the other way) is the most humane thing that could happen.
I realise that this could be a tweet from any day of the week, but he is particularly odious on this occasion.
What is the attention seeking knobhead saying? He is doing a Jezza tribute act on Israel / Palestine conflict?
Yep, opened with 'I have an Israeli friend', then straight to the Novara Media handbook. Shouting down a visibly distressed Margaret Hodge, Sophy Ridge tried to intervene and tell him to button it, but he just carried on bellowing at both women.
Rancid little misogynist.
Just watched it, we got, I have an Israeli mate (the equivalent of I ain't racist cos of my black mate, but here is a racist joke).....BUT......ISRAELI EVIL, ISRAELI EVIL, ISRAELI EVIL...
He can't actually have conversations with people he disagrees with, he just shouts over them. But if people do that to him, he takes his bat and ball home and mutters about homophobia.
Interesting that Netanyahu is taking steps to invite the opposition into a unity government in Israel.
Seems likely to be a step before more significant action is taken such that the war is not party political within Israel.
This is not going to be a short military operation.
He also needs them as political cover, because he has screwed up so massively. His excuses for staying in office despite his crimes, his subverting of the constitution and his attacks on the judiciary were that only he could offer the Israeli people security. The last 120 hours have rather blown that claim out of the water.
Also, he needs to include the opposition in any operations he performs in order to strengthen his grip on power. (If that sounds cynical, we are talking about Netanyahu and he is entirely cynical.)
I would have thought however that the Opposition will refuse to serve under him even in these circumstances. Certainly if they are wise they will make his departure from both the premiership and the Knesset a sine qua non of any unity government. Just leaving office and continuing as party leader will not be good enough.
So when are we making this offer of cash to the Palestinians if they drop their self-determination claims and move elsewhere? Is it before or after a punishment beating?
During would be my guess?
Its going to take years of intense fighting to exterminate Hamas and kill all their members until they surrender, and many innocent bystanders will get caught in the crossfire, so the honourable thing to do is both simultaneously.
The Israelis have tried this so many times. They can't, but they can increase the depraved levels of radicalisation among Hamas youth to even greater extents.
Without a different external approach from both nations like Iran and the U.S, this conflict will just go on for ever, getting more and more violent and degenerated as it goes.
The Israelis have bent over backwards to fight with gloves on for decades. They have the firepower to level Gaza and kill everyone in it if they wanted to, they don't as unlike Hamas they're not terrorists.
2000 dead when Hamas has tens of thousands of members shows how gentle the Israelis have been.
Ukraine can and should fight on until every last Russian is off their territory.
Israel should do the same until every last Hamas fighter is out of Gaza too. Every single one of them. Same as was done against the Tamil Tigers. Unless or until Hamas surrenders, unconditionally, then treat it as war.
Israel does indeed have the firepower to level Gaza. They've made a start.
The death toll has risen to more than 1,000 in Israel, according to its embassy in Washington, and at least 770 in Gaza, according to the city’s health ministry.
Israel has responded by unleashing fierce airstrikes on Gaza, where locals have described entire districts as “erased”.
More than 180,000 people in Gaza have been made homeless, with many huddling on streets or in schools, the United Nations reported.
The number of civilian victims on both sides is raising alarms for international authorities.
I'm surprised that the number of Israeli dead is still higher than the number of Gazan dead, four days in. This probably indicates that the Israeli response is not as indiscriminate as I had assumed.
It's easy to be cynical about terms like collateral damage when you see Israeli airstrikes demolishing entire tower blocks, but if they were intending to kill Gazan civilians indiscriminately they would quite likely have killed a lot more of them.
If the Israeli plan is a long-term gound conflict, that's exactly what Hamas said they wanted when they talked about preparing for "all-out conflict with Israel" .
Months of globally polarising conflict, huge numbers of Palestinian casualties, massive radicalisation among the population, unrest and protest in the arab world, and among Muslims in the west.
Vice President Kamala Harris looks terrified on the live feed.
She’s maybe looking at her boss and thinking that this could be me at any point.
Indeed.
I just dont feel this gets enough traction in the thinking on US election 2024.
She will be massively under focus given Biden's age.
Is she up to the test?
Trump is cunning - he will pick a Veep who contrasts massively with Harris.
That's a thought. Who is going to be Trumps VP? Pence has shat the bed and that leaves...?
Maybe Haley cuts a deal. She's MAGA-adjacent, balances the ticket and it would set her up nicely for 2028.
Given how fat and unhealthy he is, you’d be mad not to accept an offer to be running mate. He would have a good chance of winning, but there’s a decent chance you get a go early in the first term.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
I don't want to see that, I want to see Palestinians who want to leave the conflict offered a way out.
But how do you differentiate ordinary civilians from terrorists? You can't. Would Netanyahu oversee the deaths of 2 million Palestinians? If that's what it took to erase Hamas and reclaim his authority you bet he would.
As a dad of two Jewish kids today has been incredibly upsetting.
I’m a leftist. I believe in redistribution of wealth. I believe in equity of opportunity. I believe in peace and kindness. Seeing these f*cking scumbags like Jones taking up the Hamas cause makes me livid. Killing kids in front of their parents. Massacres. And this weird uncritical devotion to the anti-Israel cause - the mask has totally slipped now. These people hate Jews and want them to die.
Gaza is not a democracy or anything close but the Palestinian people have tolerated this bunch of psychopaths and murderers running their territory. Which kind of makes them responsible to me. If you don’t want to be responsible kick Hamas out and appoint someone willing to negotiate sensibly with Israel instead.
These people are not innocent. They have tolerated and supported these loons.
Vice President Kamala Harris looks terrified on the live feed.
She’s maybe looking at her boss and thinking that this could be me at any point.
Indeed.
I just dont feel this gets enough traction in the thinking on US election 2024.
She will be massively under focus given Biden's age.
Is she up to the test?
Trump is cunning - he will pick a Veep who contrasts massively with Harris.
That's a thought. Who is going to be Trumps VP? Pence has shat the bed and that leaves...?
BF fav is Vivek Ramaswamy followed by Haley.
Kari Lake would be my bet based on Trump's view of life.
But actually might he might pick someone with top trumps of sensible long term policy time and experience in order to show up Biden's veep?
I don't think he will, and suspect he's less cunning than you believe.
He probably feels the error of his first term was pandering to parts of the party, whether the religious right in Pence, foreign policy hawks with Bolton or whatever.
I think he'll just choose someone slavishly loyal. Ramaswamy is a decent shout. Haley or DeSantis, not really. Maybe Noem. He might just stop short of Lake, but it isn't impossible.
I realise that this could be a tweet from any day of the week, but he is particularly odious on this occasion.
What is the attention seeking knobhead saying? He is doing a Jezza tribute act on Israel / Palestine conflict?
Yep, opened with 'I have an Israeli friend', then straight to the Novara Media handbook. Shouting down a visibly distressed Margaret Hodge, Sophy Ridge tried to intervene and tell him to button it, but he just carried on bellowing at both women.
Rancid little misogynist.
Just watched it, we got, I have an Israeli mate (the equivalent of I ain't racist cos of my black mate, but here is a racist joke).....BUT......ISRAELI EVIL, ISRAELI EVIL, ISRAELI EVIL...
He can't actually have conversations with people he disagrees with, he just shouts over them. But if people do that to him, he takes his bat and ball home and mutters about homophobia.
You can see the danger on their faces. Really serious
In my darker moments I think we are slipping increasingly into a world war.
It pretty much only needs China to attempt to seize Taiwan by force and the US to directly involve itself in its defence, and we'll essentially be there.
China may look at the current situation and conclude it will never have a better window of opportunity.
I realise that this could be a tweet from any day of the week, but he is particularly odious on this occasion.
What is the attention seeking knobhead saying? He is doing a Jezza tribute act on Israel / Palestine conflict?
Yep, opened with 'I have an Israeli friend', then straight to the Novara Media handbook. Shouting down a visibly distressed Margaret Hodge, Sophy Ridge tried to intervene and tell him to button it, but he just carried on bellowing at both women.
Rancid little misogynist.
Just watched it, we got, I have an Israeli mate (the equivalent of I ain't racist cos of my black mate, but here is a racist joke).....BUT......ISRAELI EVIL, ISRAELI EVIL, ISRAELI EVIL...
He can't actually have conversations with people he disagrees with, he just shouts over them. But if people do that to him, he takes his bat and ball home and mutters about homophobia.
Because he's a berk.
Its worse than that. He is actually really nasty, the masks slips from time to time. There are plenty of berks in politics / political scene, but that doesn't make them nasty.
Gaza is not a democracy or anything close but the Palestinian people have tolerated this bunch of psychopaths and murderers running their territory. Which kind of makes them responsible to me. If you don’t want to be responsible kick Hamas out and appoint someone willing to negotiate sensibly with Israel instead.
These people are not innocent. They have tolerated and supported these loons.
Fatah, from whom the Palestinian President comes, dislike Hamas almost as much as Israel do
Gaza is not a democracy or anything close but the Palestinian people have tolerated this bunch of psychopaths and murderers running their territory. Which kind of makes them responsible to me. If you don’t want to be responsible kick Hamas out and appoint someone willing to negotiate sensibly with Israel instead.
These people are not innocent. They have tolerated and supported these loons.
Fatah, from whom the Palestinian President comes, dislike Hamas almost as much as Israel do
Yes, the issue is Gaza far, far more than the West Bank.
Destroy Hamas, and peace with the West Bank might be more achievable.
Gaza is not a democracy or anything close but the Palestinian people have tolerated this bunch of psychopaths and murderers running their territory. Which kind of makes them responsible to me. If you don’t want to be responsible kick Hamas out and appoint someone willing to negotiate sensibly with Israel instead.
These people are not innocent. They have tolerated and supported these loons.
Fatah, from whom the Palestinian President comes, dislike Hamas almost as much as Israel do
Indeed. He probably actually wants a deal leading to a functioning country.
As a dad of two Jewish kids today has been incredibly upsetting.
I’m a leftist. I believe in redistribution of wealth. I believe in equity of opportunity. I believe in peace and kindness. Seeing these f*cking scumbags like Jones taking up the Hamas cause makes me livid. Killing kids in front of their parents. Massacres. And this weird uncritical devotion to the anti-Israel cause - the mask has totally slipped now. These people hate Jews and want them to die.
Please know that there are very many of us who share your pain and disgust. You are not alone. You are not hated and here you and your children and wife are wanted, valued and will be protected, regardless of what rancid loudmouthed anti-semites on tv say.
Interesting that Netanyahu is taking steps to invite the opposition into a unity government in Israel.
Seems likely to be a step before more significant action is taken such that the war is not party political within Israel.
This is not going to be a short military operation.
He also needs them as political cover, because he has screwed up so massively. His excuses for staying in office despite his crimes, his subverting of the constitution and his attacks on the judiciary were that only he could offer the Israeli people security. The last 120 hours have rather blown that claim out of the water.
Also, he needs to include the opposition in any operations he performs in order to strengthen his grip on power. (If that sounds cynical, we are talking about Netanyahu and he is entirely cynical.)
I would have thought however that the Opposition will refuse to serve under him even in these circumstances. Certainly if they are wise they will make his departure from both the premiership and the Knesset a sine qua non of any unity government. Just leaving office and continuing as party leader will not be good enough.
They’d be wise to get hold of the security and military portfolios so that Netanyahu can’t do some mad shit and tar them with it.
As a dad of two Jewish kids today has been incredibly upsetting.
I’m a leftist. I believe in redistribution of wealth. I believe in equity of opportunity. I believe in peace and kindness. Seeing these f*cking scumbags like Jones taking up the Hamas cause makes me livid. Killing kids in front of their parents. Massacres. And this weird uncritical devotion to the anti-Israel cause - the mask has totally slipped now. These people hate Jews and want them to die.
Please know that there are very many of us who share your pain and disgust. You are not alone. You are not hated and here you and your children and wife are wanted, valued and will be protected, regardless of what rancid loudmouthed anti-semites on tv say.
As a dad of two Jewish kids today has been incredibly upsetting.
I’m a leftist. I believe in redistribution of wealth. I believe in equity of opportunity. I believe in peace and kindness. Seeing these f*cking scumbags like Jones taking up the Hamas cause makes me livid. Killing kids in front of their parents. Massacres. And this weird uncritical devotion to the anti-Israel cause - the mask has totally slipped now. These people hate Jews and want them to die.
Unfortunately the left and the right have always had antisemite elements.
The right is sort of logical* in the we hate the "other" kind of mentality and the "other" is looking to replace "us".
The left is mixed up in this binary oppressed vs oppressor, in which those deemed the oppressor are always deemed ultimately to be to blame regardless of what those they deemed oppressed did...so you get the blind spots for the Jews are all powerful, connected, run the world etc tropes, and hence why you can get an Owen Jones who is pro LGBT+, but will also try and muddy the water for regimes who would have him killed in an instant.
* I don't mean its true, but their hatred of the "other" is consistent.
So when are we making this offer of cash to the Palestinians if they drop their self-determination claims and move elsewhere? Is it before or after a punishment beating?
During would be my guess?
Its going to take years of intense fighting to exterminate Hamas and kill all their members until they surrender, and many innocent bystanders will get caught in the crossfire, so the honourable thing to do is both simultaneously.
The Israelis have tried this so many times. They can't, but they can increase the depraved levels of radicalisation among Hamas youth to even greater extents.
Without a different external approach from both nations like Iran and the U.S, this conflict will just go on for ever, getting more and more violent and degenerated as it goes.
The Israelis have bent over backwards to fight with gloves on for decades. They have the firepower to level Gaza and kill everyone in it if they wanted to, they don't as unlike Hamas they're not terrorists.
2000 dead when Hamas has tens of thousands of members shows how gentle the Israelis have been.
Ukraine can and should fight on until every last Russian is off their territory.
Israel should do the same until every last Hamas fighter is out of Gaza too. Every single one of them. Same as was done against the Tamil Tigers. Unless or until Hamas surrenders, unconditionally, then treat it as war.
Israel does indeed have the firepower to level Gaza. They've made a start.
The death toll has risen to more than 1,000 in Israel, according to its embassy in Washington, and at least 770 in Gaza, according to the city’s health ministry.
Israel has responded by unleashing fierce airstrikes on Gaza, where locals have described entire districts as “erased”.
More than 180,000 people in Gaza have been made homeless, with many huddling on streets or in schools, the United Nations reported.
The number of civilian victims on both sides is raising alarms for international authorities.
I'm surprised that the number of Israeli dead is still higher than the number of Gazan dead, four days in. This probably indicates that the Israeli response is not as indiscriminate as I had assumed.
It's easy to be cynical about terms like collateral damage when you see Israeli airstrikes demolishing entire tower blocks, but if they were intending to kill Gazan civilians indiscriminately they would quite likely have killed a lot more of them.
Although it is possible it is being undercounted. Neither the rescue services nor the health system in Gaza is exactly functioning at peak efficiency.
But then, that's true of the numbers in Israel too.
Gaza is not a democracy or anything close but the Palestinian people have tolerated this bunch of psychopaths and murderers running their territory. Which kind of makes them responsible to me. If you don’t want to be responsible kick Hamas out and appoint someone willing to negotiate sensibly with Israel instead.
These people are not innocent. They have tolerated and supported these loons.
Fatah, from whom the Palestinian President comes, dislike Hamas almost as much as Israel do
As does Sisi in Egypt, of course. He came to power in a coup against their allies in the Muslim Brotherhood.
Vice President Kamala Harris looks terrified on the live feed.
She’s maybe looking at her boss and thinking that this could be me at any point.
Indeed.
I just dont feel this gets enough traction in the thinking on US election 2024.
She will be massively under focus given Biden's age.
Is she up to the test?
Trump is cunning - he will pick a Veep who contrasts massively with Harris.
That's a thought. Who is going to be Trumps VP? Pence has shat the bed and that leaves...?
BF fav is Vivek Ramaswamy followed by Haley.
Kari Lake would be my bet based on Trump's view of life.
But actually might he might pick someone with top trumps of sensible long term policy time and experience in order to show up Biden's veep?
Haley will be the candidate for the main job, not VP. Lake won't even win a three way for the senate seat against Sinema and the official Democratic candidate.
Oh god. I’m usually the first to question arresting someone for their words. But this needs dealing with. Someone saying that needs to know that the British public detest them, and they need to experience consequences. And someone needs to monitor them and their mates and act the instant they look like they might act against anyone.
Interesting that Netanyahu is taking steps to invite the opposition into a unity government in Israel.
Seems likely to be a step before more significant action is taken such that the war is not party political within Israel.
This is not going to be a short military operation.
He also needs them as political cover, because he has screwed up so massively. His excuses for staying in office despite his crimes, his subverting of the constitution and his attacks on the judiciary were that only he could offer the Israeli people security. The last 120 hours have rather blown that claim out of the water.
Also, he needs to include the opposition in any operations he performs in order to strengthen his grip on power. (If that sounds cynical, we are talking about Netanyahu and he is entirely cynical.)
I would have thought however that the Opposition will refuse to serve under him even in these circumstances. Certainly if they are wise they will make his departure from both the premiership and the Knesset a sine qua non of any unity government. Just leaving office and continuing as party leader will not be good enough.
They’d be wise to get hold of the security and military portfolios so that Netanyahu can’t do some mad shit and tar them with it.
Even allowing for that, they need him gone.
He has failed more spectacularly than Chamberlain, and nobody ever doubted Chamberlain's personal integrity.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
It seems that to be on side you have to want Hamas destroyed regardless of how many civilians die in Gaza . Do these people seriously think that a huge loss of civilians there won’t act as a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism . And what happens in the West Bank .
Hamas are to blame for each and every Gazan death in this conflict.
I want as few civilians as possible to die, and a humanitarian way out for civilians as there are in other conflicts.
But Hamas need to be destroyed, yes.
When at war, then winning the war is the priority.
And Israel has no obligation to provide air or comfort to the enemy.
A scenario where two million peaceful Palestinians cross to border to Egypt, leaving behind card-carrying members of Hamas to fight it out, is laughable.
You keep saying this is what you "want" to squirrel out of fact your solution will see tens of thousands of children killed.
At best, you turbocharge Hamas recruitment and lose thousands of IDF personnel in the assault. At worst, civilians start starving to death and you lose the moral high ground, and then it becomes an existential crisis for Israel as other countries get involved.
That's why the US needs to come up with a second option for retaliation, rather than a ground invasion.
Its not possible to have a bloodless war.
If Israel starts deliberately targetting civilians then that would be abhorrent. They don't do that though.
If they get caught in the crossfire, then that's tragic but part of warfare. How many innocent people did we kill in Iraq, or Afghanistan when we went to war?
Hamas started this war, Israel didn't. Israel need to win it.
What does winning look like? All two million "evicted" from Gaza? Israeli martial law? All fighting age males killed?
Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms, so you'll need to set something out other than "eliminate Hamas".
As a dad of two Jewish kids today has been incredibly upsetting.
I’m a leftist. I believe in redistribution of wealth. I believe in equity of opportunity. I believe in peace and kindness. Seeing these f*cking scumbags like Jones taking up the Hamas cause makes me livid. Killing kids in front of their parents. Massacres. And this weird uncritical devotion to the anti-Israel cause - the mask has totally slipped now. These people hate Jews and want them to die.
Unfortunately the left and the right have always had antisemite elements.
The right is sort of logical* in the we hate the "other" kind of mentality.
The left is mixed up in this binary oppressed vs oppressor, in which those deemed the oppressor are always deemed ultimately to be to blame regardless of what those they deemed oppressed did...and hence why you can get an Owen Jones who is pro LGBT+, but will also try and muddy the water for regimes who would have him killed in an instant.
* I don't mean its true, but their hatred of the "other" is consistent.
Not sure. Isn't the Us/Them binary of parts of the right every bit as weirdly inconsistent and totally f***ed up as the Oppressor/Oppressed binary of parts of the right?
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
That closed Egyptian border is something Egypt has control over. If it cares about innocent civilians caught up in this.
I don't believe Bibi would be too happy either.
Who do you think leaves first, women and children or Hamas terrorists?
@BartholomewRoberts may be cavalier with the casualty numbers (he might not be so comfortable if he numbered amongst the collateral damage) but he's right. Bibi, if he wants to take Hamas out has to take the rest of the Gazans including women and children out with them.
The risks are awful should he do this, but after the vile activities of Hamas over the weekend he won't get a better opportunity and greater support. What comes next might be even more depressing than what has just gone before.
Hamas have succeeded in pushing a lot of people - in the West at least - from thinking that it's all too complicated and not wanting to take sides, to firmly backing Israel.
Israel needs to be wary of sending world opinion back the other way. Their need for security and the elimination of Hamas is clear but a war against all Palestinians or a long siege of Gaza risks doing that. The United States might need to urge restraint.
Indeed. There was massive sympathy for the USA initially after 9/11, but squandered.
Keeping world opinion onside while obliterating Gaza is not a straightforward task, but Israel rather prefers the Milwall approach to popularity.
Millwall fans were not hunted to near-extinction by various governments just eighty years ago.
European governments.
The Arab governments that tried to exterminate Jews about 80 years ago are European are they now?
Its not just European governments that have been responsible. That's why its critical that Jews have a homeland of their own, to live in safety and security, which Arab and European and other countries have tried to deny them.
I’m not aware of any attempted genocide against the Jews by Arab national governments about 80 years ago. They tried to stop the creation of an Israeli nation, but their plans did not involve killing all Jews. Not genocidal. Other war crimes may apply.
If you're not aware its because of ignorance.
Yes they tried to "drive the Jews into the sea", which would involve killing them. Indeed Jews were ethnically cleansed out of many Arab nations.
If they'd driven the Israelis "into the sea" then what do you think that entails? That they'd live happily in the water from then on?
You appear to be describing (planned) ethnic cleaning. You repeatedly call for ethnic cleaning yourself, including a few posts up, so I presumed you were fine with ethnic cleansing.
Let’s clear things up. Is ethnic cleansing an OK thing or a bad thing?
Its a bad thing, but not a beyond the pale thing.
It might be a less bad thing than any other option though.
There are no "good" solutions here.
You think Palestinian and Jew cannot live together, so the Palestinians should be expelled from an area. I presume you were quoting Azzam Pasha about “driving the Jews into the sea”. He thought Palestinian and Jew could not live together, so the Jews should be expelled from an area. You both describe ethnic cleansing. You look morally equivalent to me.
There are solutions that do not involve war crimes. Right now, Hamas don’t believe that and some in Israel don’t believe that, but let us hope there is a path forwards.
I'm not suggesting the Palestinians go into the sea, I'm suggesting they go into Egypt.
You don't see the difference there?
One is suggesting murder, the other moving people just a few miles into another part of the country they came from [Gaza was Egypt before Israel won it in a defensive war].
I would switch it round and make Gaza a part of Egypt.
The condition would be for Egypt to be in charge of the security situation. Which would be easier for fellow Arabs than it would be for Israel.
Independence for Palestine from Egypt can be kicked into the future for if and when they are able to have non-terrorists in charge.
If the Kurds aren't given a nation state, I see little reason why Palestine 'needs' to have one, particularly when a terrorist group has been in control of part of it for two decades.
Interesting that Netanyahu is taking steps to invite the opposition into a unity government in Israel.
Seems likely to be a step before more significant action is taken such that the war is not party political within Israel.
This is not going to be a short military operation.
He also needs them as political cover, because he has screwed up so massively. His excuses for staying in office despite his crimes, his subverting of the constitution and his attacks on the judiciary were that only he could offer the Israeli people security. The last 120 hours have rather blown that claim out of the water.
Also, he needs to include the opposition in any operations he performs in order to strengthen his grip on power. (If that sounds cynical, we are talking about Netanyahu and he is entirely cynical.)
I would have thought however that the Opposition will refuse to serve under him even in these circumstances. Certainly if they are wise they will make his departure from both the premiership and the Knesset a sine qua non of any unity government. Just leaving office and continuing as party leader will not be good enough.
They’d be wise to get hold of the security and military portfolios so that Netanyahu can’t do some mad shit and tar them with it.
Even allowing for that, they need him gone.
He has failed more spectacularly than Chamberlain, and nobody ever doubted Chamberlain's personal integrity.
Netanyahu is one of the all-time worst statesmen. A decent chunk of this is on him.
Oh god. I’m usually the first to question arresting someone for their words. But this needs dealing with. Someone saying that needs to know that the British public detest them, and they need to experience consequences. And someone needs to monitor them and their mates and act the instant they look like they might act against anyone.
Not only that if they don’t clamp down on it the risk is this just spreads and it will get worse as the conflict drags on.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
It seems that to be on side you have to want Hamas destroyed regardless of how many civilians die in Gaza . Do these people seriously think that a huge loss of civilians there won’t act as a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism . And what happens in the West Bank .
Hamas are to blame for each and every Gazan death in this conflict.
I want as few civilians as possible to die, and a humanitarian way out for civilians as there are in other conflicts.
But Hamas need to be destroyed, yes.
When at war, then winning the war is the priority.
And Israel has no obligation to provide air or comfort to the enemy.
A scenario where two million peaceful Palestinians cross to border to Egypt, leaving behind card-carrying members of Hamas to fight it out, is laughable.
You keep saying this is what you "want" to squirrel out of fact your solution will see tens of thousands of children killed.
At best, you turbocharge Hamas recruitment and lose thousands of IDF personnel in the assault. At worst, civilians start starving to death and you lose the moral high ground, and then it becomes an existential crisis for Israel as other countries get involved.
That's why the US needs to come up with a second option for retaliation, rather than a ground invasion.
Its not possible to have a bloodless war.
If Israel starts deliberately targetting civilians then that would be abhorrent. They don't do that though.
If they get caught in the crossfire, then that's tragic but part of warfare. How many innocent people did we kill in Iraq, or Afghanistan when we went to war?
Hamas started this war, Israel didn't. Israel need to win it.
What does winning look like? All two million "evicted" from Gaza? Israeli martial law? All fighting age males killed?
Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms, so you'll need to set something out other than "eliminate Hamas".
Strike at everyone who is shooting, until the shooting stops? Until Israeli soldiers can safely walk from house to house in Gaza without anyone firing, because everyone who would is dead or has given up.
Keep on pressing the fight, until the fighting is won.
That's how you win wars. Nothing new or novel or criminal or inhumane there.
And of course allow safe harbour for anyone who wants to flee the conflict.
Interesting that Netanyahu is taking steps to invite the opposition into a unity government in Israel.
Seems likely to be a step before more significant action is taken such that the war is not party political within Israel.
This is not going to be a short military operation.
He also needs them as political cover, because he has screwed up so massively. His excuses for staying in office despite his crimes, his subverting of the constitution and his attacks on the judiciary were that only he could offer the Israeli people security. The last 120 hours have rather blown that claim out of the water.
Also, he needs to include the opposition in any operations he performs in order to strengthen his grip on power. (If that sounds cynical, we are talking about Netanyahu and he is entirely cynical.)
I would have thought however that the Opposition will refuse to serve under him even in these circumstances. Certainly if they are wise they will make his departure from both the premiership and the Knesset a sine qua non of any unity government. Just leaving office and continuing as party leader will not be good enough.
They’d be wise to get hold of the security and military portfolios so that Netanyahu can’t do some mad shit and tar them with it.
Even allowing for that, they need him gone.
He has failed more spectacularly than Chamberlain, and nobody ever doubted Chamberlain's personal integrity.
Netanyahu is one of the all-time worst statesmen. A decent chunk of this is on him.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many Israeli civilian casualties are acceptable to you?
None ! I find it really annoying that anytime anyone is worried about civilian casualties in Gaza they’re portrayed as not caring about the Israeli deaths . You can be disgusted with what’s happened and still not want to see the bodies piling up in Gaza .
It's when people only state their concern about the civilian casualties on one side. Particularly when it's the side that's just committed various atrocities. The truth is the only side that we should have concern for are the innocent civilians on *both* sides - and that means Palestinians and Israelis.
I would love there to be an easy answer to this. Heck, I'd love *any* answer. But I fear some on here would criticise any response Israel makes, whilst ignoring what's just occurred.
If this happened in the UK, would you really call on us not to respond?
If it happened in the UK, the caring, pacifist, element of the Left, would certainly be drawing attention to all of our sins and crimes that had "provoked" the atrocity. I could write the things that Owen Jones, Mar
As a dad of two Jewish kids today has been incredibly upsetting.
I’m a leftist. I believe in redistribution of wealth. I believe in equity of opportunity. I believe in peace and kindness. Seeing these f*cking scumbags like Jones taking up the Hamas cause makes me livid. Killing kids in front of their parents. Massacres. And this weird uncritical devotion to the anti-Israel cause - the mask has totally slipped now. These people hate Jews and want them to die.
Unfortunately the left and the right have always had antisemite elements.
The right is sort of logical* in the we hate the "other" kind of mentality and the "other" is looking to replace "us".
The left is mixed up in this binary oppressed vs oppressor, in which those deemed the oppressor are always deemed ultimately to be to blame regardless of what those they deemed oppressed did...so you get the blind spots for the Jews are all powerful, connected, run the world etc tropes, and hence why you can get an Owen Jones who is pro LGBT+, but will also try and muddy the water for regimes who would have him killed in an instant.
* I don't mean its true, but their hatred of the "other" is consistent.
The notion that it’s not racism if you’re “punching up.”
Jews are wealthier than average, and hugely involved in cultural life, therefore it’s not racism to hate them.
Interesting that Netanyahu is taking steps to invite the opposition into a unity government in Israel.
Seems likely to be a step before more significant action is taken such that the war is not party political within Israel.
This is not going to be a short military operation.
He also needs them as political cover, because he has screwed up so massively. His excuses for staying in office despite his crimes, his subverting of the constitution and his attacks on the judiciary were that only he could offer the Israeli people security. The last 120 hours have rather blown that claim out of the water.
Also, he needs to include the opposition in any operations he performs in order to strengthen his grip on power. (If that sounds cynical, we are talking about Netanyahu and he is entirely cynical.)
I would have thought however that the Opposition will refuse to serve under him even in these circumstances. Certainly if they are wise they will make his departure from both the premiership and the Knesset a sine qua non of any unity government. Just leaving office and continuing as party leader will not be good enough.
They’d be wise to get hold of the security and military portfolios so that Netanyahu can’t do some mad shit and tar them with it.
Even allowing for that, they need him gone.
He has failed more spectacularly than Chamberlain, and nobody ever doubted Chamberlain's personal integrity.
Netanyahu is one of the all-time worst statesmen. A decent chunk of this is on him.
Which makes these statements by his rivals all the sillier:
There's a lot of people on here taking to Cancel Culture with the zeal of the convert.
Oh I get that I’m a hypocrite. I was, and remain, the first to argue that the “offensive” stuff at football means you’re a prick but ought not to be criminal. But we can’t have this stuff aimed at our fellow citizens, just for who they are.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
I don't want to see that, I want to see Palestinians who want to leave the conflict offered a way out.
But how do you differentiate ordinary civilians from terrorists? You can't. Would Netanyahu oversee the deaths of 2 million Palestinians? If that's what it took to erase Hamas and reclaim his authority you bet he would.
Interesting that Netanyahu is taking steps to invite the opposition into a unity government in Israel.
Seems likely to be a step before more significant action is taken such that the war is not party political within Israel.
This is not going to be a short military operation.
He also needs them as political cover, because he has screwed up so massively. His excuses for staying in office despite his crimes, his subverting of the constitution and his attacks on the judiciary were that only he could offer the Israeli people security. The last 120 hours have rather blown that claim out of the water.
Also, he needs to include the opposition in any operations he performs in order to strengthen his grip on power. (If that sounds cynical, we are talking about Netanyahu and he is entirely cynical.)
I would have thought however that the Opposition will refuse to serve under him even in these circumstances. Certainly if they are wise they will make his departure from both the premiership and the Knesset a sine qua non of any unity government. Just leaving office and continuing as party leader will not be good enough.
They’d be wise to get hold of the security and military portfolios so that Netanyahu can’t do some mad shit and tar them with it.
Even allowing for that, they need him gone.
He has failed more spectacularly than Chamberlain, and nobody ever doubted Chamberlain's personal integrity.
Netanyahu is one of the all-time worst statesmen. A decent chunk of this is on him.
Dodgy combover too.
How old is he now? He looked well into his 50s in the 90s.
Edit - nearly 74. I forget about Google. Not quite old enough to get pushed out.
Oh god. I’m usually the first to question arresting someone for their words. But this needs dealing with. Someone saying that needs to know that the British public detest them, and they need to experience consequences. And someone needs to monitor them and their mates and act the instant they look like they might act against anyone.
I rewatched the clip, and you can see Owen Jones getting riled up as Margaret Hodge was speaking, and then you get his opening monologue, I've got an Israeli mate, pause, but.....
What a time to be alive. New breaking news Reporting from a war zone, about Holly Willoughby stepping down from This Morning, a daytime TV show watched by a million or so people 😂😂😂😂
I rewatched the clip, and you can see Owen Jones getting riled up as Margaret Hodge was speaking, and then you get his opening monologue, I've got an Israeli mate, pause, but.....
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
It seems that to be on side you have to want Hamas destroyed regardless of how many civilians die in Gaza . Do these people seriously think that a huge loss of civilians there won’t act as a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism . And what happens in the West Bank .
Hamas are to blame for each and every Gazan death in this conflict.
I want as few civilians as possible to die, and a humanitarian way out for civilians as there are in other conflicts.
But Hamas need to be destroyed, yes.
When at war, then winning the war is the priority.
And Israel has no obligation to provide air or comfort to the enemy.
A scenario where two million peaceful Palestinians cross to border to Egypt, leaving behind card-carrying members of Hamas to fight it out, is laughable.
You keep saying this is what you "want" to squirrel out of fact your solution will see tens of thousands of children killed.
At best, you turbocharge Hamas recruitment and lose thousands of IDF personnel in the assault. At worst, civilians start starving to death and you lose the moral high ground, and then it becomes an existential crisis for Israel as other countries get involved.
That's why the US needs to come up with a second option for retaliation, rather than a ground invasion.
Its not possible to have a bloodless war.
If Israel starts deliberately targetting civilians then that would be abhorrent. They don't do that though.
If they get caught in the crossfire, then that's tragic but part of warfare. How many innocent people did we kill in Iraq, or Afghanistan when we went to war?
Hamas started this war, Israel didn't. Israel need to win it.
What does winning look like? All two million "evicted" from Gaza? Israeli martial law? All fighting age males killed?
Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms, so you'll need to set something out other than "eliminate Hamas".
Strike at everyone who is shooting, until the shooting stops? Until Israeli soldiers can safely walk from house to house in Gaza without anyone firing, because everyone who would is dead or has given up.
Keep on pressing the fight, until the fighting is won.
That's how you win wars. Nothing new or novel or criminal or inhumane there.
And of course allow safe harbour for anyone who wants to flee the conflict.
Who is providing the safe harbour for the two million refugees? You?
You can see the danger on their faces. Really serious
In my darker moments I think we are slipping increasingly into a world war.
It does feel like it. I have not lived through a period like this - most of us millennials have no idea what to expect. But it feels… significant. Like the existing security order has shifted
Yeh. Just feels like all the anchors are slipping under unprecedented high seas.
So much for the End of History.
Read Samuel Huntington’s Clash of Civilisations. This has been coming a long time
What a time to be alive. New breaking news Reporting from a war zone, about Holly Willoughby stepping down from This Morning, a daytime TV show watched by a million or so people 😂😂😂😂
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many Israeli civilian casualties are acceptable to you?
None ! I find it really annoying that anytime anyone is worried about civilian casualties in Gaza they’re portrayed as not caring about the Israeli deaths . You can be disgusted with what’s happened and still not want to see the bodies piling up in Gaza .
It's when people only state their concern about the civilian casualties on one side. Particularly when it's the side that's just committed various atrocities. The truth is the only side that we should have concern for are the innocent civilians on *both* sides - and that means Palestinians and Israelis.
I would love there to be an easy answer to this. Heck, I'd love *any* answer. But I fear some on here would criticise any response Israel makes, whilst ignoring what's just occurred.
If this happened in the UK, would you really call on us not to respond?
If it happened in the UK, the caring, pacifist, element of the Left, would certainly be drawing attention to all of our sins and crimes that had "provoked" the atrocity. I could write the things that Owen Jones, Mar
As a dad of two Jewish kids today has been incredibly upsetting.
I’m a leftist. I believe in redistribution of wealth. I believe in equity of opportunity. I believe in peace and kindness. Seeing these f*cking scumbags like Jones taking up the Hamas cause makes me livid. Killing kids in front of their parents. Massacres. And this weird uncritical devotion to the anti-Israel cause - the mask has totally slipped now. These people hate Jews and want them to die.
Unfortunately the left and the right have always had antisemite elements.
The right is sort of logical* in the we hate the "other" kind of mentality and the "other" is looking to replace "us".
The left is mixed up in this binary oppressed vs oppressor, in which those deemed the oppressor are always deemed ultimately to be to blame regardless of what those they deemed oppressed did...so you get the blind spots for the Jews are all powerful, connected, run the world etc tropes, and hence why you can get an Owen Jones who is pro LGBT+, but will also try and muddy the water for regimes who would have him killed in an instant.
* I don't mean its true, but their hatred of the "other" is consistent.
The notion that it’s not racism if you’re “punching up.”
Jews are wealthier than average, and hugely involved in cultural life, therefore it’s not racism to hate them.
After the London bombings, Livingstone’s formulation that it was an evil attack on working class Londoners got noticed. It am certainly reeked of “if they only blown up a bankers dinner, that would have been AOK”
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
It seems that to be on side you have to want Hamas destroyed regardless of how many civilians die in Gaza . Do these people seriously think that a huge loss of civilians there won’t act as a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism . And what happens in the West Bank .
Hamas are to blame for each and every Gazan death in this conflict.
I want as few civilians as possible to die, and a humanitarian way out for civilians as there are in other conflicts.
But Hamas need to be destroyed, yes.
When at war, then winning the war is the priority.
And Israel has no obligation to provide air or comfort to the enemy.
A scenario where two million peaceful Palestinians cross to border to Egypt, leaving behind card-carrying members of Hamas to fight it out, is laughable.
You keep saying this is what you "want" to squirrel out of fact your solution will see tens of thousands of children killed.
At best, you turbocharge Hamas recruitment and lose thousands of IDF personnel in the assault. At worst, civilians start starving to death and you lose the moral high ground, and then it becomes an existential crisis for Israel as other countries get involved.
That's why the US needs to come up with a second option for retaliation, rather than a ground invasion.
Its not possible to have a bloodless war.
If Israel starts deliberately targetting civilians then that would be abhorrent. They don't do that though.
If they get caught in the crossfire, then that's tragic but part of warfare. How many innocent people did we kill in Iraq, or Afghanistan when we went to war?
Hamas started this war, Israel didn't. Israel need to win it.
What does winning look like? All two million "evicted" from Gaza? Israeli martial law? All fighting age males killed?
Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms, so you'll need to set something out other than "eliminate Hamas".
It’s an unwinnable war, I think. Damned if you do damned if you don’t.
Hamas are at least a bit more hierarchical than some organisations, which perhaps makes taking out the leadership a bit more effective.
The question is: did the killers at Kfar Aza simply lose it in a bloodlust of “revenge” - something like My Lai - or was this a premeditated act, to kill many many people in as barbaric a way as possible - an Oradour?
If the latter what on earth was the wider purpose? To get Israel to obliterate Gaza entirely?
I can think of two plausible motivations.
One is to create terror, in the hope that individual Israelis will decide that they have a better, safer future in the US, or anywhere else.
The second is to provoke Israel into an occupation of Gaza in the hope of fighting a long guerilla campaign to bleed the IDF dry.
The third is to enlist much of the Muslim world to their cause. Al Sisi is on shaky ground in Egypt, reignited the "Arab Spring" against secular nationalist leaders could put the Muslim Brotherhood in power in Egypt.
If Israel selectively targets Hamas militants, then that is a fair go, but to cut off all supplies to a population of 2.3 million, nearly half of whom are children is not a proportionate response.
Similarly, Bloody Sunday and similar acts didn't defeat the IRA, it just recruited a fresh cohort of recruits to their cause.
If you are at war are you obliged to provide materials to your enemy?
Suppose France and Britain were at war? Would France be obliged to provide us with electricity? Or food?
If not, why is Israel expected to do so?
I genuinely don't know what the answer to this question is.
It seems odd to me to say that a country at war should be legally obliged to provide goods and services to those it is fighting, especially when those goods and services will allow it to fight you more effectively.
I can see the case for saying that a humanitarian corridor should be provided for the evacuation of hospitals or children to some third party location, say. And a truce monitored by the UN to allow that. But providing food to those fighting you?
Israel has a blockade around Gaza, where 2.3 million people live, of whom 30 000 or so are Hamas.
If you are comfortable starving, dehydrating them and depriving people power, including hospitals as an act of war then by all means do so.
I say collective punishment by that means is not civilised, even if causing death by beseigement and blockade has been used in war since time immemorial. It is also doing exactly what Hamas wanted. You can bet the Hamas fighters will be fed and watered.
People love to "both sides" this conflict, or even worse take the wrong side.
Only one side in this conflict is decapitating babies in cold blood.
If you're not against that, you're evil.
Are you evil If you’re not against bombs and missiles being used deliberately on civilians?
Good bet that if you’re making sweeping generalisations at no personal cost on the internet, there’s a decent chance you’re a twat.
Absolutely, Hamas have deliberately used bombs and missiles on civilians.
Israel has not.
There's a difference between civilians being the target, and civilians being collateral damage.
You’re dead either way . There is no good outcome because every decision ends up with a lot of dead people.
You can’t finish off Hamas because they have a constant stream of new recruits . A bloodbath in Gaza is exactly what they want and the whole cycle just continues. It’s truly depressing .
You can finish Hamas off, just as the Tamil Tigers were finished off, and just as other terrorist organisations over time have been finished off. You just need to be prepared to keep killing them until they're either all dead, or they surrender unconditionally.
Which if you're in a state of war, is entirely reasonable behaviour.
How many civilian casualties are acceptable to do this ? Given civilians in Gaza can’t leave how many casualties are too many ?
How many are acceptable to you?
Its a war. There are casualties in war.
I want the war over, but I want the war won. The sooner Hamas et all are destroyed, the sooner others can be free of them.
Of course people who want to flee the war, should be offered safe harbour to do so, but make no mistake that this was a war of Hamas's choosing and Israel should ensure they win it and it leads to either the unconditional destruction of Hamas, or the unconditional and permanent surrender of it.
The border to Egypt is closed, 2 million Palestinians are locked in. If you starve them all to death via a siege you erase Hamas. A potential 2 million dead is some war collateral.
It seems that to be on side you have to want Hamas destroyed regardless of how many civilians die in Gaza . Do these people seriously think that a huge loss of civilians there won’t act as a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism . And what happens in the West Bank .
Hamas are to blame for each and every Gazan death in this conflict.
I want as few civilians as possible to die, and a humanitarian way out for civilians as there are in other conflicts.
But Hamas need to be destroyed, yes.
When at war, then winning the war is the priority.
And Israel has no obligation to provide air or comfort to the enemy.
A scenario where two million peaceful Palestinians cross to border to Egypt, leaving behind card-carrying members of Hamas to fight it out, is laughable.
You keep saying this is what you "want" to squirrel out of fact your solution will see tens of thousands of children killed.
At best, you turbocharge Hamas recruitment and lose thousands of IDF personnel in the assault. At worst, civilians start starving to death and you lose the moral high ground, and then it becomes an existential crisis for Israel as other countries get involved.
That's why the US needs to come up with a second option for retaliation, rather than a ground invasion.
Its not possible to have a bloodless war.
If Israel starts deliberately targetting civilians then that would be abhorrent. They don't do that though.
If they get caught in the crossfire, then that's tragic but part of warfare. How many innocent people did we kill in Iraq, or Afghanistan when we went to war?
Hamas started this war, Israel didn't. Israel need to win it.
What does winning look like? All two million "evicted" from Gaza? Israeli martial law? All fighting age males killed?
Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms, so you'll need to set something out other than "eliminate Hamas".
Strike at everyone who is shooting, until the shooting stops? Until Israeli soldiers can safely walk from house to house in Gaza without anyone firing, because everyone who would is dead or has given up.
Keep on pressing the fight, until the fighting is won.
That's how you win wars. Nothing new or novel or criminal or inhumane there.
And of course allow safe harbour for anyone who wants to flee the conflict.
Who is providing the safe harbour for the two million refugees? You?
No.
I would suggest other Arab states, since these are Arabs fleeing the conflict.
Failing that, people in neighbouring countries, like normal in a conflict.
But either way, the conflict can and should be won.
You can see the danger on their faces. Really serious
In my darker moments I think we are slipping increasingly into a world war.
It pretty much only needs China to attempt to seize Taiwan by force and the US to directly involve itself in its defence, and we'll essentially be there.
China may look at the current situation and conclude it will never have a better window of opportunity.
I recall a theory that based on Population decline becoming an increasing thing, plus Emperor Xi's age and military reforms, the next 5-7 years are their best bet.
Comments
So much for the End of History.
But now Russia is exhausting itself pointlessly in Ukraine and China is too cautious to invade Taiwan whatever they say. The Middle East is violent and unstable, as is much of black Africa, but they always were. There's lots to get worried about in the world, and many terrible things happening, but there won't be a World War III.
And if the baby thing is true … ugh.
BREAKING: EU has just sent formal letter to X owner Elon Musk over "indications" that his "platform is being used to disseminate illegal content and disinformation in the EU" in the wake of Hamas's attack on Israel.
@JoeBLynam
This is as strongly worded a warning from the EU for any digital platform that I have seen. It also gives a clear 24 hours for Mr Musk to respond – something I’ve also not seen before.
That's why you shouldn't start them.
I could easily see hundreds of thousands of casualties in Gaza in this conflict, and each and every one of them would be the responsibility of Hamas for starting the conflict.
Which is why the humane thing to do is to give people an opportunity to flee the conflict, and to aid Israel to defeat Hamas as swiftly and accurately as possible, so that Hamas are destroyed and innocent Gazans ideally are not.
But there's no fighting a war without casualties.
I would love there to be an easy answer to this. Heck, I'd love *any* answer. But I fear some on here would criticise any response Israel makes, whilst ignoring what's just occurred.
If this happened in the UK, would you really call on us not to respond?
They need to be destroyed. That's what happens in war, they chose the war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Sri_Lankan_Civil_War
What do you think you reaction of the Arab world would be (along with the rest if the international community) ?
Setting aside any moral considerations, your idea just wouldn't end the conflict. Quite the opposite.
No one was left who cared enough to avenge the Tamils - and the mass killings at the end of the conflict were largely away from the view of the world; that really would not be the case here.
“But this being has a human shape, Gurney, and deserves human doubt.”
I’ve met people who did things in that war. One in particular, I’m thinking of…. A danger to his own family, among other things.
You keep saying this is what you "want" to squirrel out of fact your solution will see tens of thousands of children killed.
At best, you turbocharge Hamas recruitment and lose thousands of IDF personnel in the assault. At worst, civilians start starving to death and you lose the moral high ground, and then it becomes an existential crisis for Israel as other countries get involved.
That's why the US needs to come up with a second option for retaliation, rather than a ground invasion.
Seems likely to be a step before more significant action is taken such that the war is not party political within Israel.
This is not going to be a short military operation.
Kari Lake would be my bet based on Trump's view of life.
But actually might he might pick someone with top trumps of sensible long term policy time and experience in order to show up Biden's veep?
If Israel starts deliberately targetting civilians then that would be abhorrent. They don't do that though.
If they get caught in the crossfire, then that's tragic but part of warfare. How many innocent people did we kill in Iraq, or Afghanistan when we went to war?
Hamas started this war, Israel didn't. Israel need to win it.
Rancid little misogynist.
There is no excuse
https://x.com/bindelj/status/1711809533251584254?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
The consistent thing is that both must be defeated until they surrender in full unconditionally.
Just because they've planned for war, doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't lose it.
Egypt opening the border for one-way traffic (not for arms heading the other way) is the most humane thing that could happen.
He can't actually have conversations with people he disagrees with, he just shouts over them. But if people do that to him, he takes his bat and ball home and mutters about homophobia.
Also, he needs to include the opposition in any operations he performs in order to strengthen his grip on power. (If that sounds cynical, we are talking about Netanyahu and he is entirely cynical.)
I would have thought however that the Opposition will refuse to serve under him even in these circumstances. Certainly if they are wise they will make his departure from both the premiership and the Knesset a sine qua non of any unity government. Just leaving office and continuing as party leader will not be good enough.
It's easy to be cynical about terms like collateral damage when you see Israeli airstrikes demolishing entire tower blocks, but if they were intending to kill Gazan civilians indiscriminately they would quite likely have killed a lot more of them.
Months of globally polarising conflict, huge numbers of Palestinian casualties, massive radicalisation among the population, unrest and protest in the arab world, and among Muslims in the west.
Nobody puts Bibi in the corner.
I’m a leftist. I believe in redistribution of wealth. I believe in equity of opportunity. I believe in peace and kindness. Seeing these f*cking scumbags like Jones taking up the Hamas cause makes me livid. Killing kids in front of their parents. Massacres. And this weird uncritical devotion to the anti-Israel cause - the mask has totally slipped now. These people hate Jews and want them to die.
These people are not innocent. They have tolerated and supported these loons.
He probably feels the error of his first term was pandering to parts of the party, whether the religious right in Pence, foreign policy hawks with Bolton or whatever.
I think he'll just choose someone slavishly loyal. Ramaswamy is a decent shout. Haley or DeSantis, not really. Maybe Noem. He might just stop short of Lake, but it isn't impossible.
China may look at the current situation and conclude it will never have a better window of opportunity.
Destroy Hamas, and peace with the West Bank might be more achievable.
So when will something be done about this ?
https://x.com/archrose90/status/1711813934326354062?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
The right is sort of logical* in the we hate the "other" kind of mentality and the "other" is looking to replace "us".
The left is mixed up in this binary oppressed vs oppressor, in which those deemed the oppressor are always deemed ultimately to be to blame regardless of what those they deemed oppressed did...so you get the blind spots for the Jews are all powerful, connected, run the world etc tropes, and hence why you can get an Owen Jones who is pro LGBT+, but will also try and muddy the water for regimes who would have him killed in an instant.
* I don't mean its true, but their hatred of the "other" is consistent.
But then, that's true of the numbers in Israel too.
Lake won't even win a three way for the senate seat against Sinema and the official Democratic candidate.
He has failed more spectacularly than Chamberlain, and nobody ever doubted Chamberlain's personal integrity.
Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms, so you'll need to set something out other than "eliminate Hamas".
Scruffy so and so looks like he’s just woken up and not combed his hair.
https://x.com/haggis_uk/status/1711821987809513801?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
Who do you think leaves first, women and children or Hamas terrorists?
@BartholomewRoberts may be cavalier with the casualty numbers (he might not be so comfortable if he numbered amongst the collateral damage) but he's right. Bibi, if he wants to take Hamas out has to take the rest of the Gazans including women and children out with them.
The risks are awful should he do this, but after the vile activities of Hamas over the weekend he won't get a better opportunity and greater support. What comes next might be even more depressing than what has just gone before.
Keep on pressing the fight, until the fighting is won.
That's how you win wars. Nothing new or novel or criminal or inhumane there.
And of course allow safe harbour for anyone who wants to flee the conflict.
Jews are wealthier than average, and hugely involved in cultural life, therefore it’s not racism to hate them.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/gantz-liberman-open-to-emergency-unity-government-but-demand-say-in-waging-war/
Very bad tempered between Margaret Hodge and Owen Jones on Sky News. This issue could tear the left apart.
@Anabobazina has been on my back all day, and we might not get on, but he is right @williamglenn is a comedy - parody account.
Some leap you made there.
Edit - nearly 74. I forget about Google. Not quite old enough to get pushed out.
https://x.com/mrkphllps1/status/1711787566867837400?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
Hamas are at least a bit more hierarchical than some organisations, which perhaps makes taking out the leadership a bit more effective.
If you are comfortable starving, dehydrating them and depriving people power, including hospitals as an act of war then by all means do so.
I say collective punishment by that means is not civilised, even if causing death by beseigement and blockade has been used in war since time immemorial. It is also doing exactly what Hamas wanted. You can bet the Hamas fighters will be fed and watered.
Asymmetrical warfare is full of dilemmas.
I would suggest other Arab states, since these are Arabs fleeing the conflict.
Failing that, people in neighbouring countries, like normal in a conflict.
But either way, the conflict can and should be won.
Strap in.