My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
Believe me I have driven the A9 every year, sometimes several times a year, since 1965 and cameras are endemic
Shame not to be able to drive dangerously, isn't it?
The shame is it has not been dualled all the way and many lives would have been saved if the SNP had acted
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
Sure, but think about the underlying speed at which he might have been driving.
From the reports it doesn't look speed related
I don't mean speeding - simply the difference between crashing at a legal speed of 30mph vs 20mph (or at least starting the accident at those speeds). It's a big difference in terms of the result. But perhaps the poor gentleman had a stroke or angina or similar episode anyway.
It seems a mystery why someone of his age should be out alone at that time of night with a sad outcome
Possibly confusion, caused by a developing stroke. I looked out of the window very late at night to see an elderly neighbour out in the garden with a torch (well, the torch only), and of course went out to see if there was anything wrong/I could do. But all dark by the time I had dressed and got otu. Turned out to be dementia developing from microstrokes.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
Sure, but think about the underlying speed at which he might have been driving.
From the reports it doesn't look speed related
I don't mean speeding - simply the difference between crashing at a legal speed of 30mph vs 20mph (or at least starting the accident at those speeds). It's a big difference in terms of the result. But perhaps the poor gentleman had a stroke or angina or similar episode anyway.
It seems a mystery why someone of his age should be out alone at that time of night with a sad outcome
Possibly confusion, caused by a developing stroke. I looked out of the window very late at night to see an elderly neighbour out in the garden with a torch (well, the torch only), and of course went out to see if there was anything wrong/I could do. But all dark by the time I had dressed and got otu. Turned out to be dementia developing from microstrokes.
Or seeking A&E.
It is possible and I am interested in his name as he is the same age and he could have been a friend or colleague over decades
This is how political debate was back before Farage, indyref, Brexit and Covid.
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
Pretty much what I was thinking, this thread and the last too. (Though not your perceptive comment re the Drake.) Some interesting points made on all sides.
Edit: the political equivalent of Slow Food.
A few lurking former posters will be getting increasingly furious and contemptuous. Even the death penalty dealt with Lyons coffee-house style.
Make Britain Boring Again is part of Starmer's appeal.
It was meant to be Rishi's as well, but somehow that never quite took.
Switzerland is boring, and look how pleasant that is as a place to live
The Swiss approach to this 20mph issue would be simple: local referendum. Communities could choose their own way, and that would then put the issue to bed as well as allowing for experimentation across the country.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
Believe me I have driven the A9 every year, sometimes several times a year, since 1965 and cameras are endemic
Shame not to be able to drive dangerously, isn't it?
The shame is it has not been dualled all the way and many lives would have been saved if the SNP had acted
As I recall, one very large reason was the Edinburgh trams - delaying the existing plans and wrecking the transport budget for years. The trams ferociously promoted by the Conservatives and a few other parties, and opposed solely by the SNP.
But it doesn't change the basic point - that people shouldn't complain about speed cameras.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
They are not every five yards, but they are noticeably more frequent up here. I've done the full drive from Sussex a few times.
This is how political debate was back before Farage, indyref, Brexit and Covid.
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
Pretty much what I was thinking, this thread and the last too. (Though not your perceptive comment re the Drake.) Some interesting points made on all sides.
Edit: the political equivalent of Slow Food.
A few lurking former posters will be getting increasingly furious and contemptuous. Even the death penalty dealt with Lyons coffee-house style.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Welcome
On an important pedantry point, I don't know what an "ebike" is, never mind a "souped up ebike"; it's either a pedal cycle or a moped / motorbike.
A derestricted EAPC is a moped / motorbike.
Sure, but there's absolutely no enforcement of that at the moment, is there? I agree that there should be, but I can't for the life of me think of how it should be done.
I saw someone knocked off their feet by a derestricted bike on Parkland Walk yesterday.
The mildly-degraded hoggin surface meant that they kicked up a huge cloud of loose chippings and dust as they went along, so it wasn't even possible to take pictures of them to send to the police / council / whoever.
I'm not sure how to go about dealing with that as an individual. Yelling at them, maybe? But would they even hear?
This is how political debate was back before Farage, indyref, Brexit and Covid.
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
Pretty much what I was thinking, this thread and the last too. (Though not your perceptive comment re the Drake.) Some interesting points made on all sides.
Edit: the political equivalent of Slow Food.
A few lurking former posters will be getting increasingly furious and contemptuous. Even the death penalty dealt with Lyons coffee-house style.
I'd like to have an argument, please.
Okay, did that manhole cover over the underground nuke test make it to orbit or not?
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
They are not every five yards, but they are noticeably more frequent up here. I've done the full drive from Sussex a few times.
Actually I believe they are very necessary on the A9 as it is a very dangerous road
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
Believe me I have driven the A9 every year, sometimes several times a year, since 1965 and cameras are endemic
Shame not to be able to drive dangerously, isn't it?
The shame is it has not been dualled all the way and many lives would have been saved if the SNP had acted
As I recall, one very large reason was the Edinburgh trams - delaying the existing plans and wrecking the transport budget for years. The trams ferociously promoted by the Conservatives and a few other parties, and opposed solely by the SNP.
But it doesn't change the basic point - that people shouldn't complain about speed cameras.
As you will notice I have just posted in support of them on the A9
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
The Brynglas tunnel was a bottleneck 25 years ago, when I was a student in Aber. It’s up there with the A303 at Stonehenge, as an example of political failure to fix a traffic problem, with massive negative effects on both local economies and the environment caused by delays and congestion.
I was very enthusiastic for the Southern M4 relief for years. I was also enthusiastic for the Estuary Airport at Llanwern which raises its's head every decade or so (despite living near Rhoose - I flew out to Belfast from there today- it was great). Neither are affordable and neither fulfill any future requirements. More roads mean more gridlocked traffic. I know because at 30,000 per year I am one of the problems.
I used to use the North and South circs in London and couldn't wait for the M25. 30 years on and the M25 is unusable. As the late Leon commented before his untimely demise " the private car is dead" or at least it should be, I am not sure ULEZ and 20 mph fit the bill, but this Government winning the next election as the motorist's friend is insanity and a lie.
He was joking. It was a conceit designed for idiots to agree with.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
They are not every five yards, but they are noticeably more frequent up here. I've done the full drive from Sussex a few times.
Actually I believe they are very necessary on the A9 as it is a very dangerous road
Until they get round to dualling it (decades) I think they'll have to put in 40mph at Aviemore, Carrbridge and the Ralia junctions (there is one more but I can't remember which one).
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
I think that last line is an important insight. You can, however, reduce the probability.
We intellectually try and divide the population into "good drivers" and "bad drivers", whilst it's actually a spectrum - with varying probabilities of collisison and injuries.
The likes of IAM and ROSPA talk about Advanced Driver Training as reducing the probability of a collision by two-thirds (that's probably an old number).
Quite often when debating vids online of some driver or other doing something dangerous (eg overtaking at over the speed limit in limited space between two parked rows of vehicles), or dangerously close passing someone riding a bike, the remark is "no one was hurt, what's the problem?"
That comment entirely ignores what will happen statistically when 1000 people do it 1000 times. It only needs one pedestrian to step out for a fatality to happen.
That's the point - we all make mistakes, and it's about reducing the damaging consequences of mistakes, and eliminating as far as possible behaviours that increase the probability.
In the UK it is noticeable that New Labour managed to reduce road deaths by half in a decade, and progress stopped dead when the current slopey-shouldered Government came in. With appropriate measures we could have had far fewer people killed on our roads in the last decade. Source:https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/united-kingdom-road-safety.pdf page 8.
Very nice graph.
I notice it implies also that crashes have become more dangerous/fatal when they do happen. Not sure how that happens. More SUVs?
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
They are not every five yards, but they are noticeably more frequent up here. I've done the full drive from Sussex a few times.
Actually I believe they are very necessary on the A9 as it is a very dangerous road
I don't think that's right. I think it is a very safe road that is often driven in a dangerous manner.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
They are not every five yards, but they are noticeably more frequent up here. I've done the full drive from Sussex a few times.
Actually I believe they are very necessary on the A9 as it is a very dangerous road
I am not commenting on their usefulness or otherwise, just their proliferation.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
They are not every five yards, but they are noticeably more frequent up here. I've done the full drive from Sussex a few times.
Actually I believe they are very necessary on the A9 as it is a very dangerous road
Until they get round to dualling it (decades) I think they'll have to put in 40mph at Aviemore, Carrbridge and the Ralia junctions (there is one more but I can't remember which one).
I have no problem with sensible use of speed restrictions and on those junctions I agree it is sensible
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
Presumably she's a psychopath. Certainly some of the trial evidence suggested a narcissistic personality. Psychopathy is less common among women than men, but I don't think is less prevalent among the young, the popular or the not unattractive.
How does one become a psychopath? And surely that's a sign of mental illness, right?
No-one really knows. However, a distinction is usually drawn between “axis 1” disorders, what we might call your usual mental illness like anxiety and depression, and “axis 2” or personality disorders, like psychopathy. Personality disorders appear to be something a person is born with, although some people with psychopathic tendencies grow up to be functioning members of society and some don’t. It may be a combination of personality disorder and upbringing that determines whether somebody becomes a dangerous psychopath.
I believe that psychopathy and sociopathy are both forms of Antisocial Personality Disorder, and there've been reports in the press that suggest that Letby likely has this this as well as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I don't know what evidence that's based on, or if there's been a formal diagnosis. But if it's true, it'll be a horrible combination, both for her (and as we now know) the people around her.
There are therapies available which can help mitigate the effects, but I think they tend to be of the type that only work if the subject genuinely wants to change their behaviour: it's not as simple as giving them a CBT app and hoping for the best.
I don't know if intensive therapy is ever available in prisons. I don't even know if it should be, at least for those who have no prospect of ever being released like Letby.
It's all very tricky. Not least this. When people go round murdering people when the murderer suffers from psychotic disorder of some sort we are horrified but feel also a sympathy for their plight. It happens quite a bit and generates much less attention and hostility than the other sorts.
Psychopathy and sociopathy, and narcissistic personality disorder are also plainly disorders. But the medical profession treats them differently, on the whole by not treating them - regarding it as untreatable. And the criminal system treats it differently too - as in our case today.
For most of us, just doing, systematically, what Letby did simply proves of itself that she is insane in ordinary language. Sane people could not do it if they tried. It can't be done. But she is treated as sane. I don't find this very comforting really.
Surely the better solution would be to find and treat such people, before they offended?
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
Let me get this right - the local BigG Drakeford-haters actually want a blanket 20?
Quite commonly 20mph zones are furiously opposed locally, then enthusiastically supported once implemented.
Applies to quite a few things (or at least is tolerated/accepted despite initial furious opposition). Leaders know when they need to push on through.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
I think that last line is an important insight. You can, however, reduce the probability.
We intellectually try and divide the population into "good drivers" and "bad drivers", whilst it's actually a spectrum - with varying probabilities of collisison and injuries.
The likes of IAM and ROSPA talk about Advanced Driver Training as reducing the probability of a collision by two-thirds (that's probably an old number).
Quite often when debating vids online of some driver or other doing something dangerous (eg overtaking at over the speed limit in limited space between two parked rows of vehicles), or dangerously close passing someone riding a bike, the remark is "no one was hurt, what's the problem?"
That comment entirely ignores what will happen statistically when 1000 people do it 1000 times. It only needs one pedestrian to step out for a fatality to happen.
That's the point - we all make mistakes, and it's about reducing the damaging consequences of mistakes, and eliminating as far as possible behaviours that increase the probability.
In the UK it is noticeable that New Labour managed to reduce road deaths by half in a decade, and progress stopped dead when the current slopey-shouldered Government came in. With appropriate measures we could have had far fewer people killed on our roads in the last decade. Source:https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/united-kingdom-road-safety.pdf page 8.
Very nice graph.
I notice it implies also that crashes have become more dangerous/fatal when they do happen. Not sure how that happens. More SUVs?
It's a poor graph - it doesn't take into account population gain. The whole thing should be scrapped and re-worked as deaths per n,000 residents where it would show a continued decrease albeit at a slower rate post 2010.
This is how political debate was back before Farage, indyref, Brexit and Covid.
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
Pretty much what I was thinking, this thread and the last too. (Though not your perceptive comment re the Drake.) Some interesting points made on all sides.
Edit: the political equivalent of Slow Food.
A few lurking former posters will be getting increasingly furious and contemptuous. Even the death penalty dealt with Lyons coffee-house style.
Make Britain Boring Again is part of Starmer's appeal.
It was meant to be Rishi's as well, but somehow that never quite took.
Switzerland is boring, and look how pleasant that is as a place to live
The Swiss approach to this 20mph issue would be simple: local referendum. Communities could choose their own way, and that would then put the issue to bed as well as allowing for experimentation across the country.
Since Local Highways Authorities have the power to make exeptions via a Traffic Regulation Order, that is what we have but more subtly.
Political Parties can put out proposals for speed limits in particular communities or wards, and win the election by convincing people.
Is that not what elections are for?
One reason I like the gentle way Wales is doing it - proposals, exceptions, trials first to demonstare it works, and education and publicity in advance of enforcement.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
They are not every five yards, but they are noticeably more frequent up here. I've done the full drive from Sussex a few times.
Actually I believe they are very necessary on the A9 as it is a very dangerous road
I don't think that's right. I think it is a very safe road that is often driven in a dangerous manner.
I have driven it since 1965 on a regular basis, and it seems by common consent it is a dangerous road that should have been dualled years ago and the cameras play an important role in trying to reduce the number of terrible accidents on it
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
Presumably she's a psychopath. Certainly some of the trial evidence suggested a narcissistic personality. Psychopathy is less common among women than men, but I don't think is less prevalent among the young, the popular or the not unattractive.
How does one become a psychopath? And surely that's a sign of mental illness, right?
No-one really knows. However, a distinction is usually drawn between “axis 1” disorders, what we might call your usual mental illness like anxiety and depression, and “axis 2” or personality disorders, like psychopathy. Personality disorders appear to be something a person is born with, although some people with psychopathic tendencies grow up to be functioning members of society and some don’t. It may be a combination of personality disorder and upbringing that determines whether somebody becomes a dangerous psychopath.
I believe that psychopathy and sociopathy are both forms of Antisocial Personality Disorder, and there've been reports in the press that suggest that Letby likely has this this as well as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I don't know what evidence that's based on, or if there's been a formal diagnosis. But if it's true, it'll be a horrible combination, both for her (and as we now know) the people around her.
There are therapies available which can help mitigate the effects, but I think they tend to be of the type that only work if the subject genuinely wants to change their behaviour: it's not as simple as giving them a CBT app and hoping for the best.
I don't know if intensive therapy is ever available in prisons. I don't even know if it should be, at least for those who have no prospect of ever being released like Letby.
It's all very tricky. Not least this. When people go round murdering people when the murderer suffers from psychotic disorder of some sort we are horrified but feel also a sympathy for their plight. It happens quite a bit and generates much less attention and hostility than the other sorts.
Psychopathy and sociopathy, and narcissistic personality disorder are also plainly disorders. But the medical profession treats them differently, on the whole by not treating them - regarding it as untreatable. And the criminal system treats it differently too - as in our case today.
For most of us, just doing, systematically, what Letby did simply proves of itself that she is insane in ordinary language. Sane people could not do it if they tried. It can't be done. But she is treated as sane. I don't find this very comforting really.
Surely the better solution would be to find and treat such people, before they offended?
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
They are not every five yards, but they are noticeably more frequent up here. I've done the full drive from Sussex a few times.
Actually I believe they are very necessary on the A9 as it is a very dangerous road
I don't think that's right. I think it is a very safe road that is often driven in a dangerous manner.
I have driven it since 1965 on a regular basis, and it seems by common consent it is a dangerous road that should have been dualled years ago and the cameras play an important role in trying to reduce the number of terrible accidents on it
And the reason for those average speed cameras...? (It's drivers breaking the law)
They have reduced the number of collisions on the straights (mad overtakes etc) but not solved the problems at the junctions, which often have very short slips and low visibility. A few crashes are tourists on the wrong side, or people forgetting if they are the dualled sections or not.
This is how political debate was back before Farage, indyref, Brexit and Covid.
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
Pretty much what I was thinking, this thread and the last too. (Though not your perceptive comment re the Drake.) Some interesting points made on all sides.
Edit: the political equivalent of Slow Food.
A few lurking former posters will be getting increasingly furious and contemptuous. Even the death penalty dealt with Lyons coffee-house style.
Make Britain Boring Again is part of Starmer's appeal.
It was meant to be Rishi's as well, but somehow that never quite took.
Switzerland is boring, and look how pleasant that is as a place to live
The Swiss approach to this 20mph issue would be simple: local referendum. Communities could choose their own way, and that would then put the issue to bed as well as allowing for experimentation across the country.
With ferocious punishments for noisy cars after 9:31pm
This is how political debate was back before Farage, indyref, Brexit and Covid.
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
Pretty much what I was thinking, this thread and the last too. (Though not your perceptive comment re the Drake.) Some interesting points made on all sides.
Edit: the political equivalent of Slow Food.
A few lurking former posters will be getting increasingly furious and contemptuous. Even the death penalty dealt with Lyons coffee-house style.
I'd like to have an argument, please.
Okay, did that manhole cover over the underground nuke test make it to orbit or not?
(Only joking: I do have to go now, good night.)
I recall someone doing some very interesting simulations. The problem is that the data for those velocities, accelerations and energies is sparse. So lots of guesses. One suggestion is that blobs of metal from it might have made it into space.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Welcome
On an important pedantry point, I don't know what an "ebike" is, never mind a "souped up ebike"; it's either a pedal cycle or a moped / motorbike.
A derestricted EAPC is a moped / motorbike.
Sure, but there's absolutely no enforcement of that at the moment, is there? I agree that there should be, but I can't for the life of me think of how it should be done.
I saw someone knocked off their feet by a derestricted bike on Parkland Walk yesterday.
The mildly-degraded hoggin surface meant that they kicked up a huge cloud of loose chippings and dust as they went along, so it wasn't even possible to take pictures of them to send to the police / council / whoever.
I'm not sure how to go about dealing with that as an individual. Yelling at them, maybe? But would they even hear?
Parkland Walk should be re-converted to the Finsbury Park to East Finchley railway that it once was.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
That's something that's crying out for regulatory changes, then. Given the prevalence of driving through built-up areas in the UK, it doesn't really make sense for cars not to be able to handle it properly!
Both my hybrid and EV have a speed limiter function as well as cruise control. It seems pretty standard now.
Older cars will still need to rely on the nut behind the steering wheel.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
They are not every five yards, but they are noticeably more frequent up here. I've done the full drive from Sussex a few times.
Actually I believe they are very necessary on the A9 as it is a very dangerous road
I don't think that's right. I think it is a very safe road that is often driven in a dangerous manner.
I have driven it since 1965 on a regular basis, and it seems by common consent it is a dangerous road that should have been dualled years ago and the cameras play an important role in trying to reduce the number of terrible accidents on it
And the reason for those average speed cameras...? (It's drivers breaking the law)
They have reduced the number of collisions on the straights (mad overtakes etc) but not solved the problems at the junctions, which often have very short slips and low visibility. A few crashes are tourists on the wrong side, or people forgetting if they are the dualled sections or not.
I see average cameras as a deterrent and certainly essential on the A9
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
The Brynglas tunnel was a bottleneck 25 years ago, when I was a student in Aber. It’s up there with the A303 at Stonehenge, as an example of political failure to fix a traffic problem, with massive negative effects on both local economies and the environment caused by delays and congestion.
I was very enthusiastic for the Southern M4 relief for years. I was also enthusiastic for the Estuary Airport at Llanwern which raises its's head every decade or so (despite living near Rhoose - I flew out to Belfast from there today- it was great). Neither are affordable and neither fulfill any future requirements. More roads mean more gridlocked traffic. I know because at 30,000 per year I am one of the problems.
I used to use the North and South circs in London and couldn't wait for the M25. 30 years on and the M25 is unusable. As the late Leon commented before his untimely demise " the private car is dead" or at least it should be, I am not sure ULEZ and 20 mph fit the bill, but this Government winning the next election as the motorist's friend is insanity and a lie.
He was joking. It was a conceit designed for idiots to agree with.
You'll have to explain that to me. I am but an ill educated serf and do not understand your point.
For the record, the late lamented Leon told us all he sold his John Cooper Works Mini Cooper to travel by Uber and Shanks's pony, so I am not sure you are correct. If only we could ask him.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
I think that last line is an important insight. You can, however, reduce the probability.
We intellectually try and divide the population into "good drivers" and "bad drivers", whilst it's actually a spectrum - with varying probabilities of collisison and injuries.
The likes of IAM and ROSPA talk about Advanced Driver Training as reducing the probability of a collision by two-thirds (that's probably an old number).
Quite often when debating vids online of some driver or other doing something dangerous (eg overtaking at over the speed limit in limited space between two parked rows of vehicles), or dangerously close passing someone riding a bike, the remark is "no one was hurt, what's the problem?"
That comment entirely ignores what will happen statistically when 1000 people do it 1000 times. It only needs one pedestrian to step out for a fatality to happen.
That's the point - we all make mistakes, and it's about reducing the damaging consequences of mistakes, and eliminating as far as possible behaviours that increase the probability.
In the UK it is noticeable that New Labour managed to reduce road deaths by half in a decade, and progress stopped dead when the current slopey-shouldered Government came in. With appropriate measures we could have had far fewer people killed on our roads in the last decade. Source:https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/united-kingdom-road-safety.pdf page 8.
Very nice graph.
I notice it implies also that crashes have become more dangerous/fatal when they do happen. Not sure how that happens. More SUVs?
I'm sure SUVs don't help, but that is far less pronounced here than in the USA where they many dodge safety standards such as specific bumper heights (which means that an SUV won't necessarily another vehicle bumper-to-bumper).
There's been a similar finding in other trials - fatals reduce, but seriously injured increase. It feels like moving the same collisions down the injury scale, but I have not seen data on that.
It's the trend we we want, but gives something new to be working on.
Aha. We're discussing the A9. One of my special interests.
The problem is not speed. In the absence of any other traffic you could drive from Perth to Inverness in 90 minutes in reasonable safety. The problem is misjudgment when overtaking, and the cameras do nothing to prevent that.
Back in 1981 or thereabouts I was first on the scene of a head-on collision somewhere between Inverness and Aviemore. It was a harrowing experience that I'd rather not dwell on. We'll never know what speed the cars were doing, only that one car pulled out to overtake when it shouldn't have. The fact that they were 'breaking the law' seemed immaterial at the time.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically. However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
“cars aren’t designed to do 20mph”.
That’s a keeper, even by PB standards.
I suspect they do 20mph nearly every trip, albeit often briefly.
Several PBers appear to own vehicles that explode when the speedo reaches 20mph. It’s a feature I’m glad I didn’t option on my wheels.
I suspect it's more the proverbial servomechanism controlling the steering wheel, that overheats and explodes.
Ladies’ wombs also implode at 20mph, or so I’ve heard.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
That's disingenuous. A child hit by a car at 39mph is substantially less likely to survive than a child hit by a car at 20mph.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
That's disingenuous. A child hit by a car at 39mph is substantially less likely to survive than a child hit by a car at 20mph.
The U.S. State Department has approved #Poland's huge @BoeingDefense #Apache helicopter request, 96 helicopters, and no fewer than 1,800 #Hellfire and 460 #JAGM. Poland will be the biggest operator of the AH-64 outside the U.S. https://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/1693705011920855287
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
Presumably she's a psychopath. Certainly some of the trial evidence suggested a narcissistic personality. Psychopathy is less common among women than men, but I don't think is less prevalent among the young, the popular or the not unattractive.
How does one become a psychopath? And surely that's a sign of mental illness, right?
No-one really knows. However, a distinction is usually drawn between “axis 1” disorders, what we might call your usual mental illness like anxiety and depression, and “axis 2” or personality disorders, like psychopathy. Personality disorders appear to be something a person is born with, although some people with psychopathic tendencies grow up to be functioning members of society and some don’t. It may be a combination of personality disorder and upbringing that determines whether somebody becomes a dangerous psychopath.
I believe that psychopathy and sociopathy are both forms of Antisocial Personality Disorder, and there've been reports in the press that suggest that Letby likely has this this as well as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I don't know what evidence that's based on, or if there's been a formal diagnosis. But if it's true, it'll be a horrible combination, both for her (and as we now know) the people around her.
There are therapies available which can help mitigate the effects, but I think they tend to be of the type that only work if the subject genuinely wants to change their behaviour: it's not as simple as giving them a CBT app and hoping for the best.
I don't know if intensive therapy is ever available in prisons. I don't even know if it should be, at least for those who have no prospect of ever being released like Letby.
It's all very tricky. Not least this. When people go round murdering people when the murderer suffers from psychotic disorder of some sort we are horrified but feel also a sympathy for their plight. It happens quite a bit and generates much less attention and hostility than the other sorts.
Psychopathy and sociopathy, and narcissistic personality disorder are also plainly disorders. But the medical profession treats them differently, on the whole by not treating them - regarding it as untreatable. And the criminal system treats it differently too - as in our case today.
For most of us, just doing, systematically, what Letby did simply proves of itself that she is insane in ordinary language. Sane people could not do it if they tried. It can't be done. But she is treated as sane. I don't find this very comforting really.
Surely the better solution would be to find and treat such people, before they offended?
Better for all concerned.
As I understand it, people who suffer that combination of disorders tend to refuse treatment... and refuse even to accept that there's any problem to treat in the first place.
And it's a really difficult set of problems to diagnose in advance of something going horribly wrong. The people in question tend to be adept at hiding their tracks and/or talking their way out of trouble. And some people who are edge cases - or who are have some but not all of the traits in question - tend to be hugely valued.
Think of the politicians, and CEOs that have APD traits, as we discussed earlier. Or celebrities of all sorts who have NPDs. Or people who seem to have a bit of both, like Elon Musk. None of them are in anything like the same league as Letby, of course. But whilst many of them might well be undergoing therapy of all sort, how many of them actually acknowledge having anything like a personality disorder?
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
That's something that's crying out for regulatory changes, then. Given the prevalence of driving through built-up areas in the UK, it doesn't really make sense for cars not to be able to handle it properly!
Both my hybrid and EV have a speed limiter function as well as cruise control. It seems pretty standard now.
Older cars will still need to rely on the nut behind the steering wheel.
Speed limiter function has been compulsory from 2022 via EU regulations, and we will follow suit. At the moment there is an override (gentle kickdown on accelerator).
(Aside: one of the points I have been arguing in various places is that that is silly - it means that when a foot slips the car goes flying off into the distance, rather than stopping. That - basically 'my foot slipped' - was the excuse/reason given by the school run mum who ran down about 10 mums and school children in Wandsworth last year.)
Aha. We're discussing the A9. One of my special interests.
The problem is not speed. In the absence of any other traffic you could drive from Perth to Inverness in 90 minutes in reasonable safety. The problem is misjudgment when overtaking, and the cameras do nothing to prevent that.
Back in 1981 or thereabouts I was first on the scene of a head-on collision somewhere between Inverness and Aviemore. It was a harrowing experience that I'd rather not dwell on. We'll never know what speed the cars were doing, only that one car pulled out to overtake when it shouldn't have. The fact that they were 'breaking the law' seemed immaterial at the time.
So how come the number of collisions fell after the introduction of the cameras?
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
I have seen Camden High Street at 3am. The traffic is often too heavy for anyone to get much above 20mph. There are usually a few pedestrians; there are plenty if it’s the weekend.
For all my love of all things Drakeford, I can't for the life of me understand that (the rationale of less polluting exhaust emissions is balderdash). They spent years duelling the previously hideous and dangerously slow Heads of the Valleys road from Abergavenny to Merthyr. Years of congestion and pain in construction and bingo it's now complete, and a 50!
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Welcome
On an important pedantry point, I don't know what an "ebike" is, never mind a "souped up ebike"; it's either a pedal cycle or a moped / motorbike.
A derestricted EAPC is a moped / motorbike.
Sure, but there's absolutely no enforcement of that at the moment, is there? I agree that there should be, but I can't for the life of me think of how it should be done.
I saw someone knocked off their feet by a derestricted bike on Parkland Walk yesterday.
The mildly-degraded hoggin surface meant that they kicked up a huge cloud of loose chippings and dust as they went along, so it wasn't even possible to take pictures of them to send to the police / council / whoever.
I'm not sure how to go about dealing with that as an individual. Yelling at them, maybe? But would they even hear?
Parkland Walk should be re-converted to the Finsbury Park to East Finchley railway that it once was.
What? And tear up all the lovely bindweed and Japanese knotweed?!
The U.S. State Department has approved #Poland's huge @BoeingDefense #Apache helicopter request, 96 helicopters, and no fewer than 1,800 #Hellfire and 460 #JAGM. Poland will be the biggest operator of the AH-64 outside the U.S. https://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/1693705011920855287
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
I have seen Camden High Street at 3am. The traffic is often too heavy for anyone to get much above 20mph. There are usually a few pedestrians; there are plenty if it’s the weekend.
Yes London or at least inner London is one of the places where 24hr 20mph limits make sense. It is incredible how many people are out and about at all hours in New Cross, too.
There is a section of road near me maybe 7 miles in total that used to have 5 fixed speed cameras on it.
They were all recently replaced with average speed cameras.
But the speed limit along that stretch of road changes 5 times...
I have no idea what they measure.
Surely they'd just work out the shortest possible time between the start and end of the section at the speed limit (+10%) for each part of the section. Anyone traversing faster than that must have broken the speed limit at some point.
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
Presumably she's a psychopath. Certainly some of the trial evidence suggested a narcissistic personality. Psychopathy is less common among women than men, but I don't think is less prevalent among the young, the popular or the not unattractive.
How does one become a psychopath? And surely that's a sign of mental illness, right?
No-one really knows. However, a distinction is usually drawn between “axis 1” disorders, what we might call your usual mental illness like anxiety and depression, and “axis 2” or personality disorders, like psychopathy. Personality disorders appear to be something a person is born with, although some people with psychopathic tendencies grow up to be functioning members of society and some don’t. It may be a combination of personality disorder and upbringing that determines whether somebody becomes a dangerous psychopath.
I believe that psychopathy and sociopathy are both forms of Antisocial Personality Disorder, and there've been reports in the press that suggest that Letby likely has this this as well as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I don't know what evidence that's based on, or if there's been a formal diagnosis. But if it's true, it'll be a horrible combination, both for her (and as we now know) the people around her.
There are therapies available which can help mitigate the effects, but I think they tend to be of the type that only work if the subject genuinely wants to change their behaviour: it's not as simple as giving them a CBT app and hoping for the best.
I don't know if intensive therapy is ever available in prisons. I don't even know if it should be, at least for those who have no prospect of ever being released like Letby.
It's all very tricky. Not least this. When people go round murdering people when the murderer suffers from psychotic disorder of some sort we are horrified but feel also a sympathy for their plight. It happens quite a bit and generates much less attention and hostility than the other sorts.
Psychopathy and sociopathy, and narcissistic personality disorder are also plainly disorders. But the medical profession treats them differently, on the whole by not treating them - regarding it as untreatable. And the criminal system treats it differently too - as in our case today.
For most of us, just doing, systematically, what Letby did simply proves of itself that she is insane in ordinary language. Sane people could not do it if they tried. It can't be done. But she is treated as sane. I don't find this very comforting really.
Surely the better solution would be to find and treat such people, before they offended?
Better for all concerned.
Easier said than done. Let’s say you test everyone in the country for personality disorder… the vast majority of people with personality disorders aren’t and never will be murderers. We don’t have a test for people with personality disorders who will go on to commit murder versus those who won’t.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
I have seen Camden High Street at 3am. The traffic is often too heavy for anyone to get much above 20mph. There are usually a few pedestrians; there are plenty if it’s the weekend.
Yes London or at least inner London is one of the places where 24hr 20mph limits make sense. It is incredible how many people are out and about at all hours in New Cross, too.
Yes, my recollection of driving in inner London is that it was pretty rare to get up to 20mph anyway, regardless of any limits. I found cycling much faster.
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
Presumably she's a psychopath. Certainly some of the trial evidence suggested a narcissistic personality. Psychopathy is less common among women than men, but I don't think is less prevalent among the young, the popular or the not unattractive.
How does one become a psychopath? And surely that's a sign of mental illness, right?
No-one really knows. However, a distinction is usually drawn between “axis 1” disorders, what we might call your usual mental illness like anxiety and depression, and “axis 2” or personality disorders, like psychopathy. Personality disorders appear to be something a person is born with, although some people with psychopathic tendencies grow up to be functioning members of society and some don’t. It may be a combination of personality disorder and upbringing that determines whether somebody becomes a dangerous psychopath.
I believe that psychopathy and sociopathy are both forms of Antisocial Personality Disorder, and there've been reports in the press that suggest that Letby likely has this this as well as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I don't know what evidence that's based on, or if there's been a formal diagnosis. But if it's true, it'll be a horrible combination, both for her (and as we now know) the people around her.
There are therapies available which can help mitigate the effects, but I think they tend to be of the type that only work if the subject genuinely wants to change their behaviour: it's not as simple as giving them a CBT app and hoping for the best.
I don't know if intensive therapy is ever available in prisons. I don't even know if it should be, at least for those who have no prospect of ever being released like Letby.
It's all very tricky. Not least this. When people go round murdering people when the murderer suffers from psychotic disorder of some sort we are horrified but feel also a sympathy for their plight. It happens quite a bit and generates much less attention and hostility than the other sorts.
Psychopathy and sociopathy, and narcissistic personality disorder are also plainly disorders. But the medical profession treats them differently, on the whole by not treating them - regarding it as untreatable. And the criminal system treats it differently too - as in our case today.
For most of us, just doing, systematically, what Letby did simply proves of itself that she is insane in ordinary language. Sane people could not do it if they tried. It can't be done. But she is treated as sane. I don't find this very comforting really.
Surely the better solution would be to find and treat such people, before they offended?
Better for all concerned.
As I understand it, people who suffer that combination of disorders tend to refuse treatment... and refuse even to accept that there's any problem to treat in the first place.
And it's a really difficult set of problems to diagnose in advance of something going horribly wrong. The people in question tend to be adept at hiding their tracks and/or talking their way out of trouble. And some people who are edge cases - or who are have some but not all of the traits in question - tend to be hugely valued.
Think of the politicians, and CEOs that have APD traits, as we discussed earlier. Or celebrities of all sorts who have NPDs. Or people who seem to have a bit of both, like Elon Musk. None of them are in anything like the same league as Letby, of course. But whilst many of them might well be undergoing therapy of all sort, how many of them actually acknowledge having anything like a personality disorder?
One characteristic of sociopaths is that they are supremely good at manipulating and charming people. It seems that "Nice Lucy" Letby was one of these, hence the management siding with her against the paediatricians.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Welcome
On an important pedantry point, I don't know what an "ebike" is, never mind a "souped up ebike"; it's either a pedal cycle or a moped / motorbike.
A derestricted EAPC is a moped / motorbike.
Sure, but there's absolutely no enforcement of that at the moment, is there? I agree that there should be, but I can't for the life of me think of how it should be done.
I saw someone knocked off their feet by a derestricted bike on Parkland Walk yesterday.
The mildly-degraded hoggin surface meant that they kicked up a huge cloud of loose chippings and dust as they went along, so it wasn't even possible to take pictures of them to send to the police / council / whoever.
I'm not sure how to go about dealing with that as an individual. Yelling at them, maybe? But would they even hear?
Parkland Walk should be re-converted to the Finsbury Park to East Finchley railway that it once was.
I pulled a hamstring on the Parkland Walk Xmas before last. I am, thus, predisposed to support this plan.
A hardware speed limiter on the car would deal with the 152mph, or a satellite system. If no car can do more than 80mph, only a very small number of crims would circumvent it.
As for the offender, he did not even get a short prison sentence - it was suspended, and he got a pettifogging driving ban of 2 years.
I'd suggest something that extreme (though I cannot see just how much of a recidivist he is) or repeated should be managed by a default lifetime driving ban with a court set minimum tariff, analogous to lifetime prison sentences, with a return to driving evaluated on risk to the public.
In this case perhaps a 6-8 year tariff to give him time to mature, then medical assessment to let him drive a quadricycle / golf cart, and an extended test to allow him to drive a small hatchback.
The shocker I had not noticed until the other day was Katie Price's half a dozen drink driving offences and driving bans since 2010, and still she stays out of prison.
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
Presumably she's a psychopath. Certainly some of the trial evidence suggested a narcissistic personality. Psychopathy is less common among women than men, but I don't think is less prevalent among the young, the popular or the not unattractive.
How does one become a psychopath? And surely that's a sign of mental illness, right?
No-one really knows. However, a distinction is usually drawn between “axis 1” disorders, what we might call your usual mental illness like anxiety and depression, and “axis 2” or personality disorders, like psychopathy. Personality disorders appear to be something a person is born with, although some people with psychopathic tendencies grow up to be functioning members of society and some don’t. It may be a combination of personality disorder and upbringing that determines whether somebody becomes a dangerous psychopath.
I believe that psychopathy and sociopathy are both forms of Antisocial Personality Disorder, and there've been reports in the press that suggest that Letby likely has this this as well as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I don't know what evidence that's based on, or if there's been a formal diagnosis. But if it's true, it'll be a horrible combination, both for her (and as we now know) the people around her.
There are therapies available which can help mitigate the effects, but I think they tend to be of the type that only work if the subject genuinely wants to change their behaviour: it's not as simple as giving them a CBT app and hoping for the best.
I don't know if intensive therapy is ever available in prisons. I don't even know if it should be, at least for those who have no prospect of ever being released like Letby.
It's all very tricky. Not least this. When people go round murdering people when the murderer suffers from psychotic disorder of some sort we are horrified but feel also a sympathy for their plight. It happens quite a bit and generates much less attention and hostility than the other sorts.
Psychopathy and sociopathy, and narcissistic personality disorder are also plainly disorders. But the medical profession treats them differently, on the whole by not treating them - regarding it as untreatable. And the criminal system treats it differently too - as in our case today.
For most of us, just doing, systematically, what Letby did simply proves of itself that she is insane in ordinary language. Sane people could not do it if they tried. It can't be done. But she is treated as sane. I don't find this very comforting really.
Surely the better solution would be to find and treat such people, before they offended?
Better for all concerned.
Easier said than done. Let’s say you test everyone in the country for personality disorder… the vast majority of people with personality disorders aren’t and never will be murderers. We don’t have a test for people with personality disorders who will go on to commit murder versus those who won’t.
And PD treatments are still fairly new and uncertain.
Which is better than the situation 20-odd years ago, when there were no treatments at all. This sent Home Secretaries of the time potty, because it meant that you couldn't use the Mental Health Act to detain people with PD.
Aha. We're discussing the A9. One of my special interests.
The problem is not speed. In the absence of any other traffic you could drive from Perth to Inverness in 90 minutes in reasonable safety. The problem is misjudgment when overtaking, and the cameras do nothing to prevent that.
Back in 1981 or thereabouts I was first on the scene of a head-on collision somewhere between Inverness and Aviemore. It was a harrowing experience that I'd rather not dwell on. We'll never know what speed the cars were doing, only that one car pulled out to overtake when it shouldn't have. The fact that they were 'breaking the law' seemed immaterial at the time.
So how come the number of collisions fell after the introduction of the cameras?
Yes, cameras will have some effect. I'm not denying that. But most collisions are not caused by excessive speed (e.g. drivers careening off a bend they took too fast - a common cause of motorcycle fatalities in North Wales). They are caused by people, not used to driving in the Highlands, misjudging the distance required to overtake. Dualling would prevent most of the remaining collisions and it's long overdue.
A hardware speed limiter on the car would deal with the 152mph, or a satellite system. If no car can do more than 80mph, only a very small number of crims would circumvent it.
As for the offender, he did not even get a short prison sentence - it was suspended, and he got a pettifogging driving ban of 2 years.
I'd suggest something that extreme (though I cannot see just how much of a recidivist he is) or repeated should be managed by a default lifetime driving ban with a court set minimum tariff, analogous to lifetime prison sentences, with a return to driving evaluated on risk to the public.
In this case perhaps a 5-8 year ban to give him time to mature, then medical assessment to let him drive a quadricycle, and an extended test to allow him to drive a small hatchback.
The shocker I had not noticed until the other day was Katie Price's half a dozen drink driving offences and driving bans since 2010, and still she stays out of prison.
Judge: You were 3 times over the drink driving limit and mowed down two pedestrians and a cyclist! How do you plead? Defendant: Well, I need to drive to Tesco sometimes.. Judge: One point on your license! Let that be a warning to you!
The U.S. State Department has approved #Poland's huge @BoeingDefense #Apache helicopter request, 96 helicopters, and no fewer than 1,800 #Hellfire and 460 #JAGM. Poland will be the biggest operator of the AH-64 outside the U.S. https://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/1693705011920855287
According to a Polish friend (no fan of the current government), the openly discussed intention is to form a military block of Eastern European countries with the largest conventional force in Europe. So that they can defeat Russia *on their own*, if required.
Part of it is building up capabilities in-country for ammunition production. Then the production of the actual weapon themselves.
Aha. We're discussing the A9. One of my special interests.
The problem is not speed. In the absence of any other traffic you could drive from Perth to Inverness in 90 minutes in reasonable safety. The problem is misjudgment when overtaking, and the cameras do nothing to prevent that.
Back in 1981 or thereabouts I was first on the scene of a head-on collision somewhere between Inverness and Aviemore. It was a harrowing experience that I'd rather not dwell on. We'll never know what speed the cars were doing, only that one car pulled out to overtake when it shouldn't have. The fact that they were 'breaking the law' seemed immaterial at the time.
So how come the number of collisions fell after the introduction of the cameras?
Yes, cameras will have some effect. I'm not denying that. But most collisions are not caused by excessive speed (e.g. drivers careening off a bend they took too fast - a common cause of motorcycle fatalities in North Wales). They are caused by people, not used to driving in the Highlands, misjudging the distance required to overtake. Dualling would prevent most of the remaining collisions and it's long overdue.
The U.S. State Department has approved #Poland's huge @BoeingDefense #Apache helicopter request, 96 helicopters, and no fewer than 1,800 #Hellfire and 460 #JAGM. Poland will be the biggest operator of the AH-64 outside the U.S. https://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/1693705011920855287
According to a Polish friend (no fan of the current government), the openly discussed intention is to form a military block of Eastern European countries with the largest conventional force in Europe. So that they can defeat Russia *on their own*, if required.
Part of it is building up capabilities in-country for ammunition production. Then the production of the actual weapon themselves.
Dont blame them. Trump is coming and he 'aint giving any more support to european defence against his bestie Putin.
There is a section of road near me maybe 7 miles in total that used to have 5 fixed speed cameras on it.
They were all recently replaced with average speed cameras.
But the speed limit along that stretch of road changes 5 times...
I have no idea what they measure.
Surely they'd just work out the shortest possible time between the start and end of the section at the speed limit (+10%) for each part of the section. Anyone traversing faster than that must have broken the speed limit at some point.
Plus 10% plus 2.
Are they even switched on? The average speed cameras on the M4 North of Newport were installed and redundant for around four years. A tip: they are working very well now.
The U.S. State Department has approved #Poland's huge @BoeingDefense #Apache helicopter request, 96 helicopters, and no fewer than 1,800 #Hellfire and 460 #JAGM. Poland will be the biggest operator of the AH-64 outside the U.S. https://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/1693705011920855287
According to a Polish friend (no fan of the current government), the openly discussed intention is to form a military block of Eastern European countries with the largest conventional force in Europe...
I did the research. I read books (well, downloaded PDFs). I wrote an article backstage. I asked for comment. I got it published. I held a Q&A a week later and disseminated a longer version. I went thru the history. I told you what was happening. I told you why it was happening and what would happen next.
Aha. We're discussing the A9. One of my special interests.
The problem is not speed. In the absence of any other traffic you could drive from Perth to Inverness in 90 minutes in reasonable safety. The problem is misjudgment when overtaking, and the cameras do nothing to prevent that.
Back in 1981 or thereabouts I was first on the scene of a head-on collision somewhere between Inverness and Aviemore. It was a harrowing experience that I'd rather not dwell on. We'll never know what speed the cars were doing, only that one car pulled out to overtake when it shouldn't have. The fact that they were 'breaking the law' seemed immaterial at the time.
So how come the number of collisions fell after the introduction of the cameras?
Yes, cameras will have some effect. I'm not denying that. But most collisions are not caused by excessive speed (e.g. drivers careening off a bend they took too fast - a common cause of motorcycle fatalities in North Wales). They are caused by people, not used to driving in the Highlands, misjudging the distance required to overtake. Dualling would prevent most of the remaining collisions and it's long overdue.
Excessive speed doesn't cause misjudgements?
On the contrary, a collision when overtaking is just as likely to be caused by insufficient speed.
Overtaking is not illegal. No-one would drive 100 miles behind a lorry-load of mackerel at 30mph. But passing safely requires a level of judgment that many drivers don't have because they don't need it. Modern roads are based on dual carriageways where faster vehicles can safely pass slower ones. The fact that long stretches of the A9 are still single-carriageway 42 years after the event I mentioned upthread is a disgrace. It's a road of national importance and it wouldn't happen in Cornwall.
Last Saturday, I was walking away from my local post office, on my way to pick up a gyro for lunch, when I saw a man riding an electric unicycle -- while looking at his cellphone. (Until then I didn't know there were such things as electric unicycles, but it was easy enough to see what it was, just looking at it.) He was about to turn on to a main street, where there was a fair amount of traffic.
And I am nearly certain that the danger of the situation was one reason he was doing those things.
Many young men (and a few young women) in this area -- and probably most of the world -- look for ways to demonstrate their courage. Often here that means driving recklessly, or, in this example, riding recklessly.
Any broad attempt to reduce traffic deaths should recognize that, for some, danger is attractive.
Oldest modal filter (LTN) in Edinburgh is 174 years old. Anyone beat that?
Argh, you don't say where that is. 1849 or so, which rules out the outer inner city (Grange etc). And it can't be the main roads and side roads as seen in e.g. Leith Walk/Elm Row as there are too many.
I wondered about Holyroodhouse - both the immediate frontage at Abbeyhill and the Queen's Park (aka Arthur's Seat and ground around to those who don't know). There was a big shake up in the early C19 there, and of course Her Maj the Qeen (not The Queen, but the old The Queen) might have wanted peace and quiet.
But they were draining and laying out the Meadows in the 1840s, so I'll plump for the Meadows complex, and particularly Middle Meadow Walk. Do I get a stick of Castle rock?
The U.S. State Department has approved #Poland's huge @BoeingDefense #Apache helicopter request, 96 helicopters, and no fewer than 1,800 #Hellfire and 460 #JAGM. Poland will be the biggest operator of the AH-64 outside the U.S. https://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/1693705011920855287
According to a Polish friend (no fan of the current government), the openly discussed intention is to form a military block of Eastern European countries with the largest conventional force in Europe...
I did the research. I read books (well, downloaded PDFs). I wrote an article backstage. I asked for comment. I got it published. I held a Q&A a week later and disseminated a longer version. I went thru the history. I told you what was happening. I told you why it was happening and what would happen next.
The French and German reactions to Ukraine sealed the deal.
The only question is about the last piece in the puzzle of creating a new power.
Ukraine has a large amount of "reactor grade" plutonium - more than 15% PU-240 - in the form of spent fuel rods in the cooling pods around its old reactors. To get the plutonium out of the rods would take simple chemistry. The result wouldn't be convenient - prone to fluctuations in yield, and the core would require active cooling. But the US detonated a weapon with more than 20% Pu-240 - interestingly it was British plutonium we swapped for HEU.
It would be possible to run short fuel cycles in the existing reactors to create "weapons grade" (below 6% Pu-240) plutonium.
And Poland is looking at acquiring it's own nuclear reactors.
Oldest modal filter (LTN) in Edinburgh is 174 years old. Anyone beat that?
Argh, you don't say where that is. 1849 or so, which rules out the outer inner city (Grange etc). And it can't be the main roads and side roads as seen in e.g. Leith Walk/Elm Row as there are too many.
I wondered about Holyroodhouse - both the immediate frontage at Abbeyhill and the Queen's Park (aka Arthur's Seat and ground around to those who don't know). There was a big shake up in the early C19 there, and of course Her Maj the Qeen (not The Queen, but the old The Queen) might have wanted peace and quiet.
But they were draining and laying out the Meadows in the 1840s, so I'll plump for the Meadows complex, and particularly Middle Meadow Walk. Do I get a stick of Castle rock?
East Scotland Street Lane. Excellent guess on Middle Meadow Walk - 1871. There have been numerous attempts to open it up to traffic over the years.
Leith "Walk" is the only Walk in the city which allows motor vehicles. Should be renamed imo. The traditional routes for carriages were Easter and formerly Wester roads.
Oldest modal filter (LTN) in Edinburgh is 174 years old. Anyone beat that?
Argh, you don't say where that is. 1849 or so, which rules out the outer inner city (Grange etc). And it can't be the main roads and side roads as seen in e.g. Leith Walk/Elm Row as there are too many.
I wondered about Holyroodhouse - both the immediate frontage at Abbeyhill and the Queen's Park (aka Arthur's Seat and ground around to those who don't know). There was a big shake up in the early C19 there, and of course Her Maj the Qeen (not The Queen, but the old The Queen) might have wanted peace and quiet.
But they were draining and laying out the Meadows in the 1840s, so I'll plump for the Meadows complex, and particularly Middle Meadow Walk. Do I get a stick of Castle rock?
East Scotland Street Lane. Excellent guess on Middle Meadow Walk - 1871. There have been numerous attempts to open it up to traffic over the years.
Leith "Walk" is the only Walk in the city which allows motor vehicles. Should be renamed imo. The traditional routes for carriages were Easter and formerly Wester roads.
Daniel Finkelstein @Dannythefink · 14h So happy to have Phil on the pages today.
On the substantive point, I would expect interest rates to start falling from the middle of next year onwards. There is surely a reasonable chance that the current £~100m pa level of debt interest reduces by £30-40m pa by the middle of Starmer's first term in office.
Obviously, he's not banking on that - at least, not publicly, not yet. But there's got to be a decent chance that it'll happen.
Based on that alone, I'd say that if Starmer does win a majority at the next GE then he's very likely to win the next election after that as well - even if the Tories were to miraculously pull themselves together immediately after the election loss.
The U.S. State Department has approved #Poland's huge @BoeingDefense #Apache helicopter request, 96 helicopters, and no fewer than 1,800 #Hellfire and 460 #JAGM. Poland will be the biggest operator of the AH-64 outside the U.S. https://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/1693705011920855287
According to a Polish friend (no fan of the current government), the openly discussed intention is to form a military block of Eastern European countries with the largest conventional force in Europe. So that they can defeat Russia *on their own*, if required.
Part of it is building up capabilities in-country for ammunition production. Then the production of the actual weapon themselves.
Dont blame them. Trump is coming and he 'aint giving any more support to european defence against his bestie Putin.
It is 1930s.
Rearm and rearm again.
Apparently there were Poles "on the line/in the room" when the French chap who asked "why don't you just give up?" of the Ukrainians.
That's the kind of comment, historically, that changes policy.
Oldest modal filter (LTN) in Edinburgh is 174 years old. Anyone beat that?
Argh, you don't say where that is. 1849 or so, which rules out the outer inner city (Grange etc). And it can't be the main roads and side roads as seen in e.g. Leith Walk/Elm Row as there are too many.
I wondered about Holyroodhouse - both the immediate frontage at Abbeyhill and the Queen's Park (aka Arthur's Seat and ground around to those who don't know). There was a big shake up in the early C19 there, and of course Her Maj the Qeen (not The Queen, but the old The Queen) might have wanted peace and quiet.
But they were draining and laying out the Meadows in the 1840s, so I'll plump for the Meadows complex, and particularly Middle Meadow Walk. Do I get a stick of Castle rock?
East Scotland Street Lane. Excellent guess on Middle Meadow Walk - 1871. There have been numerous attempts to open it up to traffic over the years.
Leith "Walk" is the only Walk in the city which allows motor vehicles. Should be renamed imo. The traditional routes for carriages were Easter and formerly Wester roads.
Don't forget the trams!
Look at this corner - a nice villa in south Edinburgh had to be demolished to let the trams from Strathearn Place to Churchhill - 1880s maybe I think.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
I think that last line is an important insight. You can, however, reduce the probability.
We intellectually try and divide the population into "good drivers" and "bad drivers", whilst it's actually a spectrum - with varying probabilities of collisison and injuries.
The likes of IAM and ROSPA talk about Advanced Driver Training as reducing the probability of a collision by two-thirds (that's probably an old number).
Quite often when debating vids online of some driver or other doing something dangerous (eg overtaking at over the speed limit in limited space between two parked rows of vehicles), or dangerously close passing someone riding a bike, the remark is "no one was hurt, what's the problem?"
That comment entirely ignores what will happen statistically when 1000 people do it 1000 times. It only needs one pedestrian to step out for a fatality to happen.
That's the point - we all make mistakes, and it's about reducing the damaging consequences of mistakes, and eliminating as far as possible behaviours that increase the probability.
In the UK it is noticeable that New Labour managed to reduce road deaths by half in a decade, and progress stopped dead when the current slopey-shouldered Government came in. With appropriate measures we could have had far fewer people killed on our roads in the last decade. Source:https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/united-kingdom-road-safety.pdf page 8.
Very nice graph.
I notice it implies also that crashes have become more dangerous/fatal when they do happen. Not sure how that happens. More SUVs?
It's a poor graph - it doesn't take into account population gain. The whole thing should be scrapped and re-worked as deaths per n,000 residents where it would show a continued decrease albeit at a slower rate post 2010.
Does population matter, when you have car numbers anyway? It's the cars that cause the accidents, and they rise quicker than population.
Aha. We're discussing the A9. One of my special interests.
The problem is not speed. In the absence of any other traffic you could drive from Perth to Inverness in 90 minutes in reasonable safety. The problem is misjudgment when overtaking, and the cameras do nothing to prevent that.
Back in 1981 or thereabouts I was first on the scene of a head-on collision somewhere between Inverness and Aviemore. It was a harrowing experience that I'd rather not dwell on. We'll never know what speed the cars were doing, only that one car pulled out to overtake when it shouldn't have. The fact that they were 'breaking the law' seemed immaterial at the time.
So how come the number of collisions fell after the introduction of the cameras?
Yes, cameras will have some effect. I'm not denying that. But most collisions are not caused by excessive speed (e.g. drivers careening off a bend they took too fast - a common cause of motorcycle fatalities in North Wales). They are caused by people, not used to driving in the Highlands, misjudging the distance required to overtake. Dualling would prevent most of the remaining collisions and it's long overdue.
Excessive speed doesn't cause misjudgements?
Scotland and similar places also have certain unusual factors for the UK such as more low sun (not helped by BST) and a greater number of narrow roads. Those don't help.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
I think that last line is an important insight. You can, however, reduce the probability.
We intellectually try and divide the population into "good drivers" and "bad drivers", whilst it's actually a spectrum - with varying probabilities of collisison and injuries.
The likes of IAM and ROSPA talk about Advanced Driver Training as reducing the probability of a collision by two-thirds (that's probably an old number).
Quite often when debating vids online of some driver or other doing something dangerous (eg overtaking at over the speed limit in limited space between two parked rows of vehicles), or dangerously close passing someone riding a bike, the remark is "no one was hurt, what's the problem?"
That comment entirely ignores what will happen statistically when 1000 people do it 1000 times. It only needs one pedestrian to step out for a fatality to happen.
That's the point - we all make mistakes, and it's about reducing the damaging consequences of mistakes, and eliminating as far as possible behaviours that increase the probability.
In the UK it is noticeable that New Labour managed to reduce road deaths by half in a decade, and progress stopped dead when the current slopey-shouldered Government came in. With appropriate measures we could have had far fewer people killed on our roads in the last decade. Source:https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/united-kingdom-road-safety.pdf page 8.
Very nice graph.
I notice it implies also that crashes have become more dangerous/fatal when they do happen. Not sure how that happens. More SUVs?
It's a poor graph - it doesn't take into account population gain. The whole thing should be scrapped and re-worked as deaths per n,000 residents where it would show a continued decrease albeit at a slower rate post 2010.
Does population matter, when you have car numbers anyway? It's the cars that cause the accidents, and they rise quicker than population.
Population change of a fraction of a % a year on changes shown on that chart is at most a rounding error, and makes no difference to the point made. Red herring.
The U.S. State Department has approved #Poland's huge @BoeingDefense #Apache helicopter request, 96 helicopters, and no fewer than 1,800 #Hellfire and 460 #JAGM. Poland will be the biggest operator of the AH-64 outside the U.S. https://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/1693705011920855287
According to a Polish friend (no fan of the current government), the openly discussed intention is to form a military block of Eastern European countries with the largest conventional force in Europe...
I did the research. I read books (well, downloaded PDFs). I wrote an article backstage. I asked for comment. I got it published. I held a Q&A a week later and disseminated a longer version. I went thru the history. I told you what was happening. I told you why it was happening and what would happen next.
The French and German reactions to Ukraine sealed the deal.
The only question is about the last piece in the puzzle of creating a new power.
Ukraine has a large amount of "reactor grade" plutonium - more than 15% PU-240 - in the form of spent fuel rods in the cooling pods around its old reactors. To get the plutonium out of the rods would take simple chemistry. The result wouldn't be convenient - prone to fluctuations in yield, and the core would require active cooling. But the US detonated a weapon with more than 20% Pu-240 - interestingly it was British plutonium we swapped for HEU.
It would be possible to run short fuel cycles in the existing reactors to create "weapons grade" (below 6% Pu-240) plutonium.
And Poland is looking at acquiring it's own nuclear reactors.
Oh. That's not worrying in the least. [Looks into buying decommissioned nuclear bunker]
Aha. We're discussing the A9. One of my special interests.
The problem is not speed. In the absence of any other traffic you could drive from Perth to Inverness in 90 minutes in reasonable safety. The problem is misjudgment when overtaking, and the cameras do nothing to prevent that.
Back in 1981 or thereabouts I was first on the scene of a head-on collision somewhere between Inverness and Aviemore. It was a harrowing experience that I'd rather not dwell on. We'll never know what speed the cars were doing, only that one car pulled out to overtake when it shouldn't have. The fact that they were 'breaking the law' seemed immaterial at the time.
So how come the number of collisions fell after the introduction of the cameras?
Yes, cameras will have some effect. I'm not denying that. But most collisions are not caused by excessive speed (e.g. drivers careening off a bend they took too fast - a common cause of motorcycle fatalities in North Wales). They are caused by people, not used to driving in the Highlands, misjudging the distance required to overtake. Dualling would prevent most of the remaining collisions and it's long overdue.
Excessive speed doesn't cause misjudgements?
Scotland and similar places also have certain unusual factors such as more low sun (not helped by BST) and a greater number of narrow roads.
Not sure if the traditionally higher alcohol issues north of the border also feed through into extra drink driving compared to other areas - though tbf other areas of the UK have alcohol limits high enough that much drink driving by other countries' standards is legal.
Looks very roughly pro rata for head of population, or less, but haven't looked properly. Perhaps less; about 8K casualties in UK vs 350 in Scotland in 2019. Ac tually 650 or so would be pro rata. That seems a very high difference actually, maybe it';s different stats.
Bad CGI or just a really over-the-top sharpening filter?
White shorts. Black socks. Urgh.
He's a good looking lad and fit, but he's a bit barrel chested and with short legs, so long shorts don't work. He badly needed short shorts to make his legs look longer. It may have been better if he did it barefoot.
Plus he has really weird technique: he crabs around the court like he's trying to poo himself. If it wasn't for the obvious Putin analogue, him on horseback may have worked better. Him swimming a length or two and then climbing out of the pool towards the camera would have really worked. But he went for tennis. Ho-hum
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
I think that last line is an important insight. You can, however, reduce the probability.
We intellectually try and divide the population into "good drivers" and "bad drivers", whilst it's actually a spectrum - with varying probabilities of collisison and injuries.
The likes of IAM and ROSPA talk about Advanced Driver Training as reducing the probability of a collision by two-thirds (that's probably an old number).
Quite often when debating vids online of some driver or other doing something dangerous (eg overtaking at over the speed limit in limited space between two parked rows of vehicles), or dangerously close passing someone riding a bike, the remark is "no one was hurt, what's the problem?"
That comment entirely ignores what will happen statistically when 1000 people do it 1000 times. It only needs one pedestrian to step out for a fatality to happen.
That's the point - we all make mistakes, and it's about reducing the damaging consequences of mistakes, and eliminating as far as possible behaviours that increase the probability.
In the UK it is noticeable that New Labour managed to reduce road deaths by half in a decade, and progress stopped dead when the current slopey-shouldered Government came in. With appropriate measures we could have had far fewer people killed on our roads in the last decade. Source:https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/united-kingdom-road-safety.pdf page 8.
Very nice graph.
I notice it implies also that crashes have become more dangerous/fatal when they do happen. Not sure how that happens. More SUVs?
It's a poor graph - it doesn't take into account population gain. The whole thing should be scrapped and re-worked as deaths per n,000 residents where it would show a continued decrease albeit at a slower rate post 2010.
Does population matter, when you have car numbers anyway? It's the cars that cause the accidents, and they rise quicker than population.
Population change of a fraction of a % a year on changes shown on that chart is at most a rounding error, and makes no difference to the point made. Red herring.
Thanks. Predator-prey interactions are a function of predator density vs prey density, so you have to control for that, sure. But if the prey density is effectively constant over the time range it can be ignored and lumped into the constant part of the function.
A hardware speed limiter on the car would deal with the 152mph, or a satellite system. If no car can do more than 80mph, only a very small number of crims would circumvent it.
As for the offender, he did not even get a short prison sentence - it was suspended, and he got a pettifogging driving ban of 2 years.
I'd suggest something that extreme (though I cannot see just how much of a recidivist he is) or repeated should be managed by a default lifetime driving ban with a court set minimum tariff, analogous to lifetime prison sentences, with a return to driving evaluated on risk to the public.
In this case perhaps a 5-8 year ban to give him time to mature, then medical assessment to let him drive a quadricycle, and an extended test to allow him to drive a small hatchback.
The shocker I had not noticed until the other day was Katie Price's half a dozen drink driving offences and driving bans since 2010, and still she stays out of prison.
Judge: You were 3 times over the drink driving limit and mowed down two pedestrians and a cyclist! How do you plead? Defendant: Well, I need to drive to Tesco sometimes.. Judge: One point on your license! Let that be a warning to you!
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Welcome
On an important pedantry point, I don't know what an "ebike" is, never mind a "souped up ebike"; it's either a pedal cycle or a moped / motorbike.
A derestricted EAPC is a moped / motorbike.
Sure, but there's absolutely no enforcement of that at the moment, is there? I agree that there should be, but I can't for the life of me think of how it should be done.
I saw someone knocked off their feet by a derestricted bike on Parkland Walk yesterday.
The mildly-degraded hoggin surface meant that they kicked up a huge cloud of loose chippings and dust as they went along, so it wasn't even possible to take pictures of them to send to the police / council / whoever.
I'm not sure how to go about dealing with that as an individual. Yelling at them, maybe? But would they even hear?
It depends where you are. The Royal Parks Police last week seized about a dozen illegal E-motorbikes.
Some constabularies have been doing enforcement against offroad motorbikes used illegally for decades - Durham Police since the 1990s for example, under the name Operation Endurance. https://twitter.com/OpEndurance
Recently Cardiff have been active and seized hundreds of illegal motorbikes.
But in most places Councillors are still addicted to whacking in unlawful physical barriers rather than adjusting policing priorities.
Bad CGI or just a really over-the-top sharpening filter?
White shorts. Black socks. Urgh.
He's a good looking lad and fit, but he's a bit barrel chested and with short legs, so long shorts don't work. He badly needed short shorts to make his legs look longer. It may have been better if he did it barefoot.
Plus he has really weird technique: he crabs around the court like he's trying to poo himself. If it wasn't for the obvious Putin analogue, him on horseback may have worked better. Him swimming a length or two and then climbing out of the pool towards the camera would have really worked. But he went for tennis. Ho-hum
Someone mentioned a few days ago that you could always tell an American by the shoes - but, for me, it's the socks. Black socks with everything. Unless they're wearing black jeans or a suit, in which case the white gym socks inevitably turn up.
(Goodness. I sound like such a snob. I guess I am such a snob. But I don't own a single pair of plain black or plain white socks, and don't think I ever have done, at least not as an adult.)
Longer shorts are actually in fashion at the moment. Skater-type: wide, and long - to the knee or a bit below. But his are neither here nor there and look a bit silly.
And then there's the weird spider-like movements. And the grunting. What's with the grunting?
Bad CGI or just a really over-the-top sharpening filter?
White shorts. Black socks. Urgh.
He's a good looking lad and fit, but he's a bit barrel chested and with short legs, so long shorts don't work. He badly needed short shorts to make his legs look longer. It may have been better if he did it barefoot.
Plus he has really weird technique: he crabs around the court like he's trying to poo himself. If it wasn't for the obvious Putin analogue, him on horseback may have worked better. Him swimming a length or two and then climbing out of the pool towards the camera would have really worked. But he went for tennis. Ho-hum
Thematically more appropriate as a message, swatting away an opponent's shots with ease.
A hardware speed limiter on the car would deal with the 152mph, or a satellite system. If no car can do more than 80mph, only a very small number of crims would circumvent it.
As for the offender, he did not even get a short prison sentence - it was suspended, and he got a pettifogging driving ban of 2 years.
I'd suggest something that extreme (though I cannot see just how much of a recidivist he is) or repeated should be managed by a default lifetime driving ban with a court set minimum tariff, analogous to lifetime prison sentences, with a return to driving evaluated on risk to the public.
In this case perhaps a 5-8 year ban to give him time to mature, then medical assessment to let him drive a quadricycle, and an extended test to allow him to drive a small hatchback.
The shocker I had not noticed until the other day was Katie Price's half a dozen drink driving offences and driving bans since 2010, and still she stays out of prison.
Judge: You were 3 times over the drink driving limit and mowed down two pedestrians and a cyclist! How do you plead? Defendant: Well, I need to drive to Tesco sometimes.. Judge: One point on your license! Let that be a warning to you!
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Welcome
On an important pedantry point, I don't know what an "ebike" is, never mind a "souped up ebike"; it's either a pedal cycle or a moped / motorbike.
A derestricted EAPC is a moped / motorbike.
Sure, but there's absolutely no enforcement of that at the moment, is there? I agree that there should be, but I can't for the life of me think of how it should be done.
I saw someone knocked off their feet by a derestricted bike on Parkland Walk yesterday.
The mildly-degraded hoggin surface meant that they kicked up a huge cloud of loose chippings and dust as they went along, so it wasn't even possible to take pictures of them to send to the police / council / whoever.
I'm not sure how to go about dealing with that as an individual. Yelling at them, maybe? But would they even hear?
It depends where you are. The Royal Parks Police last week seized about a dozen illegal E-motorbikes.
Some constabularies have been doing enforcement against offroad motorbikes used illegally for decades - Durham Police since the 1990s for example, under the name Operation Endurance. https://twitter.com/OpEndurance
Recently Cardiff have been active and seized hundreds of illegal motorbikes.
But in most places Councillors are still addicted to whacking in unlawful physical barriers rather than adjusting policing priorities.
There's an absolute epidemic of off-road motorbikes and souped up pushbikes with motors round here. All riding the main roads without plates or helmets. And, in the former case, with no regard whatsoever for speed limits. Made me wryly smile when I saw the government wanting numberplates for cyclists.
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
With the Letby case - it is always possible that it was the wrong verdict. One problem with the 'whole life order' imposed on her is that she now has no motivation to ever confess to anything. You have to trust the system but recent cases have shown that it is not infallible.
I don't think you can draw that many conclusions from it other than the hospital should have done something about what the consultants were saying sooner.
Oldest modal filter (LTN) in Edinburgh is 174 years old. Anyone beat that?
Argh, you don't say where that is. 1849 or so, which rules out the outer inner city (Grange etc). And it can't be the main roads and side roads as seen in e.g. Leith Walk/Elm Row as there are too many.
I wondered about Holyroodhouse - both the immediate frontage at Abbeyhill and the Queen's Park (aka Arthur's Seat and ground around to those who don't know). There was a big shake up in the early C19 there, and of course Her Maj the Qeen (not The Queen, but the old The Queen) might have wanted peace and quiet.
But they were draining and laying out the Meadows in the 1840s, so I'll plump for the Meadows complex, and particularly Middle Meadow Walk. Do I get a stick of Castle rock?
East Scotland Street Lane. Excellent guess on Middle Meadow Walk - 1871. There have been numerous attempts to open it up to traffic over the years.
Leith "Walk" is the only Walk in the city which allows motor vehicles. Should be renamed imo. The traditional routes for carriages were Easter and formerly Wester roads.
Don't forget the trams!
Look at this corner - a nice villa in south Edinburgh had to be demolished to let the trams from Strathearn Place to Churchhill - 1880s maybe I think.
A hardware speed limiter on the car would deal with the 152mph, or a satellite system. If no car can do more than 80mph, only a very small number of crims would circumvent it.
As for the offender, he did not even get a short prison sentence - it was suspended, and he got a pettifogging driving ban of 2 years.
I'd suggest something that extreme (though I cannot see just how much of a recidivist he is) or repeated should be managed by a default lifetime driving ban with a court set minimum tariff, analogous to lifetime prison sentences, with a return to driving evaluated on risk to the public.
In this case perhaps a 5-8 year ban to give him time to mature, then medical assessment to let him drive a quadricycle, and an extended test to allow him to drive a small hatchback.
The shocker I had not noticed until the other day was Katie Price's half a dozen drink driving offences and driving bans since 2010, and still she stays out of prison.
Judge: You were 3 times over the drink driving limit and mowed down two pedestrians and a cyclist! How do you plead? Defendant: Well, I need to drive to Tesco sometimes.. Judge: One point on your license! Let that be a warning to you!
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Welcome
On an important pedantry point, I don't know what an "ebike" is, never mind a "souped up ebike"; it's either a pedal cycle or a moped / motorbike.
A derestricted EAPC is a moped / motorbike.
Sure, but there's absolutely no enforcement of that at the moment, is there? I agree that there should be, but I can't for the life of me think of how it should be done.
I saw someone knocked off their feet by a derestricted bike on Parkland Walk yesterday.
The mildly-degraded hoggin surface meant that they kicked up a huge cloud of loose chippings and dust as they went along, so it wasn't even possible to take pictures of them to send to the police / council / whoever.
I'm not sure how to go about dealing with that as an individual. Yelling at them, maybe? But would they even hear?
It depends where you are. The Royal Parks Police last week seized about a dozen illegal E-motorbikes.
Some constabularies have been doing enforcement against offroad motorbikes used illegally for decades - Durham Police since the 1990s for example, under the name Operation Endurance. https://twitter.com/OpEndurance
Recently Cardiff have been active and seized hundreds of illegal motorbikes.
But in most places Councillors are still addicted to whacking in unlawful physical barriers rather than adjusting policing priorities.
Operation Endurance?
These things should only get silly names that don't encourage grandiose thinking.
Who's going to leak information about the secretive Operation Telly Tubby?
Comments
Or seeking A&E.
But it doesn't change the basic point - that people shouldn't complain about speed cameras.
I saw someone knocked off their feet by a derestricted bike on Parkland Walk yesterday.
The mildly-degraded hoggin surface meant that they kicked up a huge cloud of loose chippings and dust as they went along, so it wasn't even possible to take pictures of them to send to the police / council / whoever.
I'm not sure how to go about dealing with that as an individual. Yelling at them, maybe? But would they even hear?
(Only joking: I do have to go now, good night.)
I notice it implies also that crashes have become more dangerous/fatal when they do happen. Not sure how that happens. More SUVs?
Better for all concerned.
Political Parties can put out proposals for speed limits in particular communities or wards, and win the election by convincing people.
Is that not what elections are for?
One reason I like the gentle way Wales is doing it - proposals, exceptions, trials first to demonstare it works, and education and publicity in advance of enforcement.
They were all recently replaced with average speed cameras.
But the speed limit along that stretch of road changes 5 times...
I have no idea what they measure.
They have reduced the number of collisions on the straights (mad overtakes etc) but not solved the problems at the junctions, which often have very short slips and low visibility. A few crashes are tourists on the wrong side, or people forgetting if they are the dualled sections or not.
And not owning a fully automatic weapon. I recall someone doing some very interesting simulations. The problem is that the data for those velocities, accelerations and energies is sparse. So lots of guesses. One suggestion is that blobs of metal from it might have made it into space.
For those who don't know - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plumbbob
Older cars will still need to rely on the nut behind the steering wheel.
I do not disagree with you about the A9
For the record, the late lamented Leon told us all he sold his John Cooper Works Mini Cooper to travel by Uber and Shanks's pony, so I am not sure you are correct. If only we could ask him.
There's been a similar finding in other trials - fatals reduce, but seriously injured increase. It feels like moving the same collisions down the injury scale, but I have not seen data on that.
It's the trend we we want, but gives something new to be working on.
The problem is not speed. In the absence of any other traffic you could drive from Perth to Inverness in 90 minutes in reasonable safety. The problem is misjudgment when overtaking, and the cameras do nothing to prevent that.
Back in 1981 or thereabouts I was first on the scene of a head-on collision somewhere between Inverness and Aviemore. It was a harrowing experience that I'd rather not dwell on. We'll never know what speed the cars were doing, only that one car pulled out to overtake when it shouldn't have. The fact that they were 'breaking the law' seemed immaterial at the time.
If Biden has some kind of health scare she is the one with the maximum momentum.
I have topped up at 25.
https://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/1693705011920855287
And the A55 through Colwyn Bay is restricted to 50mph
Audi driver hit 'atrocious' speed of 152mph on A55
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/audi-driver-hit-atrocious-speed-27565797#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare
And it's a really difficult set of problems to diagnose in advance of something going horribly wrong. The people in question tend to be adept at hiding their tracks and/or talking their way out of trouble. And some people who are edge cases - or who are have some but not all of the traits in question - tend to be hugely valued.
Think of the politicians, and CEOs that have APD traits, as we discussed earlier. Or celebrities of all sorts who have NPDs. Or people who seem to have a bit of both, like Elon Musk. None of them are in anything like the same league as Letby, of course. But whilst many of them might well be undergoing therapy of all sort, how many of them actually acknowledge having anything like a personality disorder?
(Aside: one of the points I have been arguing in various places is that that is silly - it means that when a foot slips the car goes flying off into the distance, rather than stopping. That - basically 'my foot slipped' - was the excuse/reason given by the school run mum who ran down about 10 mums and school children in Wandsworth last year.)
https://www.itv.com/news/london/2022-07-29/school-run-mum-fined-after-11-injured-in-crash-which-left-children-trapped
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/driving-tech/mandatory-speed-limiters/
Brace. As @Leon would have said.
I'm on Harris & Christie as the noms, and I look at my book and despair. Good value losers both, I think...
As for the offender, he did not even get a short prison sentence - it was suspended, and he got a pettifogging driving ban of 2 years.
I'd suggest something that extreme (though I cannot see just how much of a recidivist he is) or repeated should be managed by a default lifetime driving ban with a court set minimum tariff, analogous to lifetime prison sentences, with a return to driving evaluated on risk to the public.
In this case perhaps a 6-8 year tariff to give him time to mature, then medical assessment to let him drive a quadricycle / golf cart, and an extended test to allow him to drive a small hatchback.
The shocker I had not noticed until the other day was Katie Price's half a dozen drink driving offences and driving bans since 2010, and still she stays out of prison.
Which is better than the situation 20-odd years ago, when there were no treatments at all. This sent Home Secretaries of the time potty, because it meant that you couldn't use the Mental Health Act to detain people with PD.
Defendant: Well, I need to drive to Tesco sometimes..
Judge: One point on your license! Let that be a warning to you!
Part of it is building up capabilities in-country for ammunition production. Then the production of the actual weapon themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zFSHSwV6zCY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0o3AUF-9b0
It is 1930s.
Rearm and rearm again.
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joe-biden-administration-approval-ratings-and-hypothetical-voting-intention-5-6-august-2023/
DeSantis beats Harris 42% to 40% with Harvard Harris
https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/HHP_July2023_KeyResults.pdf
Are they even switched on? The average speed cameras on the M4 North of Newport were installed and redundant for around four years. A tip: they are working very well now.
And then everybody forgot it. Dagnabbit...
https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/01/29/the-intermarium/
Philip Collins
@PhilipJCollins1
·
12h
As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted...
https://twitter.com/PhilipJCollins1/status/1693555930414141640
Daniel Finkelstein
@Dannythefink
·
14h
So happy to have Phil on the pages today.
Overtaking is not illegal. No-one would drive 100 miles behind a lorry-load of mackerel at 30mph. But passing safely requires a level of judgment that many drivers don't have because they don't need it. Modern roads are based on dual carriageways where faster vehicles can safely pass slower ones. The fact that long stretches of the A9 are still single-carriageway 42 years after the event I mentioned upthread is a disgrace. It's a road of national importance and it wouldn't happen in Cornwall.
But
I said she was Dem nominee not that she would win.
It is about who is left standing, at this late stage, if Biden has a health scare.
Dems have made such a mess that Biden has to remain upright and able to draw breath to now stop trump winning.
I am on both too.
And I am nearly certain that the danger of the situation was one reason he was doing those things.
Many young men (and a few young women) in this area -- and probably most of the world -- look for ways to demonstrate their courage. Often here that means driving recklessly, or, in this example, riding recklessly.
Any broad attempt to reduce traffic deaths should recognize that, for some, danger is attractive.
I wondered about Holyroodhouse - both the immediate frontage at Abbeyhill and the Queen's Park (aka Arthur's Seat and ground around to those who don't know). There was a big shake up in the early C19 there, and of course Her Maj the Qeen (not The Queen, but the old The Queen) might have wanted peace and quiet.
But they were draining and laying out the Meadows in the 1840s, so I'll plump for the Meadows complex, and particularly Middle Meadow Walk. Do I get a stick of Castle rock?
The only question is about the last piece in the puzzle of creating a new power.
Ukraine has a large amount of "reactor grade" plutonium - more than 15% PU-240 - in the form of spent fuel rods in the cooling pods around its old reactors. To get the plutonium out of the rods would take simple chemistry. The result wouldn't be convenient - prone to fluctuations in yield, and the core would require active cooling. But the US detonated a weapon with more than 20% Pu-240 - interestingly it was British plutonium we swapped for HEU.
It would be possible to run short fuel cycles in the existing reactors to create "weapons grade" (below 6% Pu-240) plutonium.
And Poland is looking at acquiring it's own nuclear reactors.
https://x.com/vivekgramaswamy/status/1693657867163779545
Leith "Walk" is the only Walk in the city which allows motor vehicles. Should be renamed imo. The traditional routes for carriages were Easter and formerly Wester roads.
Obviously, he's not banking on that - at least, not publicly, not yet. But there's got to be a decent chance that it'll happen.
Based on that alone, I'd say that if Starmer does win a majority at the next GE then he's very likely to win the next election after that as well - even if the Tories were to miraculously pull themselves together immediately after the election loss.
That's the kind of comment, historically, that changes policy.
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9331625,-3.2055111,139m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu
https://www.transport.gov.scot/publication/reported-road-casualties-scotland-2020/drink-drive-accidents-and-casualties/
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-involving-illegal-alcohol-levels-2021/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-involving-illegal-alcohol-levels-2021
He's a good looking lad and fit, but he's a bit barrel chested and with short legs, so long shorts don't work. He badly needed short shorts to make his legs look longer. It may have been better if he did it barefoot.
Plus he has really weird technique: he crabs around the court like he's trying to poo himself. If it wasn't for the obvious Putin analogue, him on horseback may have worked better. Him swimming a length or two and then climbing out of the pool towards the camera would have really worked. But he went for tennis. Ho-hum
Some constabularies have been doing enforcement against offroad motorbikes used illegally for decades - Durham Police since the 1990s for example, under the name Operation Endurance.
https://twitter.com/OpEndurance
Recently Cardiff have been active and seized hundreds of illegal motorbikes.
But in most places Councillors are still addicted to whacking in unlawful physical barriers rather than adjusting policing priorities.
(Goodness. I sound like such a snob. I guess I am such a snob. But I don't own a single pair of plain black or plain white socks, and don't think I ever have done, at least not as an adult.)
Longer shorts are actually in fashion at the moment. Skater-type: wide, and long - to the knee or a bit below. But his are neither here nor there and look a bit silly.
And then there's the weird spider-like movements. And the grunting. What's with the grunting?
All riding the main roads without plates or helmets. And, in the former case, with no regard whatsoever for speed limits.
Made me wryly smile when I saw the government wanting numberplates for cyclists.
I don't think you can draw that many conclusions from it other than the hospital should have done something about what the consultants were saying sooner.
These things should only get silly names that don't encourage grandiose thinking.
Who's going to leak information about the secretive Operation Telly Tubby?