Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
Incidentally - it was very noticeable driving around today that many currently 40mph limits on main roads are being cut to 20 (evidence - flashing speed signs that have been put up but not yet put in use) and many 60 limits are being cut to 40 (same evidence).
This is not just about safety. If it were, we'd be seeing widespread road improvements too, which are sorely needed.
This is about an unhealthy obsession with speed, imposed by idiots who don't know what they're doing or care much for the consequences.
One immediate thought is if they don't want people to die trying to get to hospitals (not usually any point waiting for an ambulance given how long it takes to arrive) they should take over the Wales Air Ambulance service and fund it properly, with more helicopters.
But they're not going to.
No doubt someone can clarify this point, but some cars actually have a need to go vaguely rapidly at some point. Diesel cars for example I think have to have vaguely regular trips above 40. I suspect my (German) car only really charges its battery to tip-top condition on Autobahns at about 100mph. Eabhal's car needs to have sustained cross stich... (sorry Eabhal - just trying to be humorous - I hope you'll forgive me)
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).
Not sure what to make of tonight's offering from R&W - perhaps just consign to the bin and forget about it might be the most prudent option.
Among men, the Labour lead is 10 and among women the lead is 20 - but that excludes 8% of DKs among the men and 14% among the women which is lower than in some other polls.
The 2019 Conservative vote retention is 59% staying loyal, 15% to Labour, 10% Don't Know, 8% Reform and 4% to the LDs.
Trying to pick through the undergrowth of some very iffy looking sub samples (the Conservatives outpolling Labour 2:1 in London - someone tell Susan Hall) we get Labour 43%, Conservative 29% and Liberal Democrats 14%, Reform on 7%, Greens on 6% and Others on 1% so the actual moves between the Con/Ref grouping and the Lab/LD/Green grouping remain very small with the bulk of the Labour loss shared across the other "progressive" parties.
That's a Con-Lab swing of 13% and a Con-LD swing of 9% which isn't much different to what we've seen for a while.
The numbers are much closer to Opinium than other posters - could still be an outlier but it's a difficult time for polling and pollsters and we may need to wait until after the holidays to see the dust settle before Conference season - presumably the last before a General Election.
Again, and this getting boring now… subsamples aren’t weighted. So they are meaningless. The concept of an “iffy looking” subsample is a nonsense.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
Presumably she's a psychopath. Certainly some of the trial evidence suggested a narcissistic personality. Psychopathy is less common among women than men, but I don't think is less prevalent among the young, the popular or the not unattractive.
How does one become a psychopath? And surely that's a sign of mental illness, right?
No-one really knows. However, a distinction is usually drawn between “axis 1” disorders, what we might call your usual mental illness like anxiety and depression, and “axis 2” or personality disorders, like psychopathy. Personality disorders appear to be something a person is born with, although some people with psychopathic tendencies grow up to be functioning members of society and some don’t. It may be a combination of personality disorder and upbringing that determines whether somebody becomes a dangerous psychopath.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Fair enough! I hadn't realised that they were converting so many A roads to 40mph, and 40mph to 20mph. Can't see much online about that, so is this a different scheme to the 20mph limits?
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
That map - is it the 30now 20mph zones, or what?
If it's meant to show current 30 zones - and given there's one showing at Minfordd* I think it must be - then it's not very accurate. It has, for example, left off Llangurig and Tre'r-ddol.
*No sign that is to be cut and given it's a rather bizarre 30 limit already that really would be taking the piss.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Fair enough! I hadn't realised that they were converting so many A roads to 40mph, and 40mph to 20mph. Can't see much online about that.
Nor could I. But I can see roadsigns changing as well as the next person.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Doesn't this come down to Barty's point about building bypasses around built-up areas? Plenty of room to do it in mid-Wales; straighten the main roads out and keep the main traffic flow out of towns and villages.
If the demand's there, then why not do it? I can't see why traffic should ever be allowed to rush down streets filled with shops and people's front doors at 30 or 40 mph.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
“cars aren’t designed to do 20mph”.
That’s a keeper, even by PB standards.
I suspect they do 20mph nearly every trip, albeit often briefly.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Doesn't this come down to Barty's point about building bypasses around built-up areas? Plenty of room to do it in mid-Wales; straighten the main roads out and keep the main traffic flow out of towns and villages.
If the demand's there, then why not do it? I can't see why traffic should ever be allowed to rush down streets filled with shops and people's front doors at 30 or 40 mph.
I agree entirely.
But Drakeford has declared 'no more roads!' because he thinks we must Do Less Driving due to the climate emergency.
Which is a perfectly logical position if he had any thought as to what people living rural Wales are to do instead in the absence of railways, bus services, schools, hospitals and even shops.
Unless he's proposing ethnic cleansing on a grand scale, there needs to be some thought given to that.
But because he's a grade A twat, and pig ignorant to boot, he won't.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
Why would anyone be doing ‘long distances’ in 20mph zones? They are for residential areas, not trunk roads.
One wonders why no other country in the world has copied our privatisation experiment. If it was such a marvellous success people would be lining up to copy it.
Other nations have privatised their railways. They've just typically done it much better, more thoroughly and a more real privatisation than the bodged half-private, half-public, bidding for rights and subsidised by taxpayer, spiderman-pointing-fingers-at-each-other way it was done here.
Have a look at Japan for one of the world's most successful networks, that was privatised, operates successfully and privately, takes one of the highest shares of transportation in any country on the planet, and does so with zero subsidies on the mainland.
This is true but it's a pretty tiny number of railways shutting down, in depopulating areas. IIUC what happened was that they did a massive slash-and-burn operation when they privatized, and some of the little local lines they wanted to close were instead picked up by little local non-profits with a subsidy from local government. They've had varying degrees of success attracting tourist traffic or whatever.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
Why would anyone be doing ‘long distances’ in 20mph zones? They are for residential areas, not trunk roads.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
“cars aren’t designed to do 20mph”.
That’s a keeper, even by PB standards.
I suspect they do 20mph nearly every trip, albeit often briefly.
Several PBers appear to own vehicles that explode when the speedo reaches 20mph. It’s a feature I’m glad I didn’t option on my wheels.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Doesn't this come down to Barty's point about building bypasses around built-up areas? Plenty of room to do it in mid-Wales; straighten the main roads out and keep the main traffic flow out of towns and villages.
If the demand's there, then why not do it? I can't see why traffic should ever be allowed to rush down streets filled with shops and people's front doors at 30 or 40 mph.
I kid you not, Drakeford has cancelled all road building projects in Wales including the ludicrous decision not to provide a third Menai crossing
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
There are hardly any 20mph limits in Gwynedd, all the rural 30mph roads are staying at 30. he only way to have a 50% increase is to have literally all your route on 20mph roads, in which case you're living around the corner from the hospital, and it adds a couple of minutes. So, in this, case, nah.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
“cars aren’t designed to do 20mph”.
That’s a keeper, even by PB standards.
I suspect they do 20mph nearly every trip, albeit often briefly.
Several PBers appear to own vehicles that explode when the speedo reaches 20mph. It’s a feature I’m glad I didn’t option on my wheels.
I suspect it's more the proverbial servomechanism controlling the steering wheel, that overheats and explodes.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Cars can do 20mph no problem, it's drivers who find it difficult to adjust at first. I drive mostly in London and am used to doing twenty, so it's easy, I know exactly when I am doing 20 or thereabouts. It's driving at <70 on motorways and dual carriageways I struggle with. Hence a motorway speed awareness course on Wednesday...
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
Originally, I thought the smart move would be to abolish the national speed limits entirely. Set the, on a case by case basis.
Having seen what's set to happen, I'm thinking that might have been naive of me.
It depends on where the impetus for the lower limits is coming from, but if they're going to have a Margaret Beckett-style obsession with cutting everything that low, how much worse would it be if every twit with a councillor's rosette shoved their oar in with screams of 'will nobody think of dead children/dogs/pet monkeys...'
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
There’s a school every mile near me so 20mph throughout makes sense. Almost all roads are double parked too. The introduction of 20mph has made driving around locally more pleasant actually, and, anecdotally, drivers calmer and more courteous.
One wonders why no other country in the world has copied our privatisation experiment. If it was such a marvellous success people would be lining up to copy it.
Other nations have privatised their railways. They've just typically done it much better, more thoroughly and a more real privatisation than the bodged half-private, half-public, bidding for rights and subsidised by taxpayer, spiderman-pointing-fingers-at-each-other way it was done here.
Have a look at Japan for one of the world's most successful networks, that was privatised, operates successfully and privately, takes one of the highest shares of transportation in any country on the planet, and does so with zero subsidies on the mainland.
This is true but it's a pretty tiny number of railways shutting down, in depopulating areas. IIUC what happened was that they did a massive slash-and-burn operation when they privatized, and some of the little local lines they wanted to close were instead picked up by little local non-profits with a subsidy from local government. They've had varying degrees of success attracting tourist traffic or whatever.
If I recall, the Japanese railway companies are also relatively big in commercial real estate development. That may be a bigger problem than aging rural lines down the, erm, tracks.
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
It is difficult not to conclude that she must be mad as well as bad. Sane people don't meticulously plan to execute babies.
Whether she passed the tests for what passes as judicially decreed sanity is irrelevant, she's f***ing nuts, like Shipman and Allit. Playing God, if that was the rationale is f***ing nuts. One can differentiate this behaviour, I would suggest from Brady, Bellfield, Pitchfork, Black and Tobin, whose motives were sexual.gratification.
Anyway, she's banged up and can harm no more. She has sixty years to contemplate why the f*** she did what she did.The main preoccupation now should be the bringing to justice those, whose dereliction of duty facilitated her killing spree. Not just nursing managers but senior managers on substantial pounds a year Maybe one, two or three deaths or attempted deaths were solely down to Lucy Letby, but she had tacit assistance with the rest.
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
Presumably she's a psychopath. Certainly some of the trial evidence suggested a narcissistic personality. Psychopathy is less common among women than men, but I don't think is less prevalent among the young, the popular or the not unattractive.
How does one become a psychopath? And surely that's a sign of mental illness, right?
No-one really knows. However, a distinction is usually drawn between “axis 1” disorders, what we might call your usual mental illness like anxiety and depression, and “axis 2” or personality disorders, like psychopathy. Personality disorders appear to be something a person is born with, although some people with psychopathic tendencies grow up to be functioning members of society and some don’t. It may be a combination of personality disorder and upbringing that determines whether somebody becomes a dangerous psychopath.
I believe that psychopathy and sociopathy are both forms of Antisocial Personality Disorder, and there've been reports in the press that suggest that Letby likely has this this as well as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I don't know what evidence that's based on, or if there's been a formal diagnosis. But if it's true, it'll be a horrible combination, both for her (and as we now know) the people around her.
There are therapies available which can help mitigate the effects, but I think they tend to be of the type that only work if the subject genuinely wants to change their behaviour: it's not as simple as giving them a CBT app and hoping for the best.
I don't know if intensive therapy is ever available in prisons. I don't even know if it should be, at least for those who have no prospect of ever being released like Letby.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
Why would anyone be doing ‘long distances’ in 20mph zones? They are for residential areas, not trunk roads.
Don't tell us that. Tell Drakeford.
Why? The Drake isn’t making trunk roads 20mph is he? He’s converting restricted roads to 20mph.
“Restricted roads are usually located in residential and built-up areas where there are lots of people. They often have street lights on them, placed no more than 200 yards apart.”
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
“cars aren’t designed to do 20mph”.
That’s a keeper, even by PB standards.
I suspect they do 20mph nearly every trip, albeit often briefly.
Several PBers appear to own vehicles that explode when the speedo reaches 20mph. It’s a feature I’m glad I didn’t option on my wheels.
I suspect it's more the proverbial servomechanism controlling the steering wheel, that overheats and explodes.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It will also be interesting to see what the residents think, once they have actually tried it.
I see that HMG's proposals to roll back LTNs could hit many that have been in place since the 1970s - and indeed some built into new estates. I used to live on a Victorian street that had been modified into a LTN c. 1985 at the latest - blissfully quiet and I never heard any complaint. To think of it becoming a rat-run now.
There was a piece in the Guardian about it, which was OK.
I wonder whether they will be restoring through traffic to Downing Street, since those physical barriers seem to meet the criteria?
Here's one known to me - a modal filter to block rat-running traffic, installed on Raleigh Street in Nottingham in the 1970s. I used to walk past it on the way to school.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
I can't find any statement from RNLI on this?
(Except that they have imposed a 20 knot non-emergency limit on themselves to save fuel costs...)
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
That's something that's crying out for regulatory changes, then. Given the prevalence of driving through built-up areas in the UK, it doesn't really make sense for cars not to be able to handle it properly!
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
Already happened in Edinburgh and been such a success they are rolling it out to more roads.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
That's something that's crying out for regulatory changes, then. Given the prevalence of driving through built-up areas in the UK, it doesn't really make sense for cars not to be able to handle it properly!
This conversation will seem quaint in a few years. We are close to the time when most cars will be automatically speed-limited by geolocation and will have adaptive cruise control meaning most time in built up areas they’ll be around 20 or less in order to maintain distance.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
That's something that's crying out for regulatory changes, then. Given the prevalence of driving through built-up areas in the UK, it doesn't really make sense for cars not to be able to handle it properly!
This conversation will seem quaint in a few years. We are close to the time when most cars will be automatically speed-limited by geolocation and will have adaptive cruise control meaning most time in built up areas they’ll be around 20 or less in order to maintain distance.
The Queen has done nothing since visiting Sandringham Flower show on the 26th of July. What's she been doing?!
I was about to say you can't really criticise the Queen for inactivity, given she's dead, but then realised you mean the current consort to KC3
I got a bit confused by HYUFD saying earlier "the King and Camilla" have gone orf to Balmoral or wherever it is an outrage that community heating systems might one day just possibly be installed.
Can I please ask the PB Brains Trust for advice on cleaning an internal Laptop fan?
My Laptop has suddenly become very noisy and I'm pretty certain its one of the fans. Not sure if its the CPU fan, or the GPU fan (gaming Laptop so has dedicated GPU). The noise volume goes up or down, its not consistent, but at its worst its very loud.
I'm taken the case apart and there was quite a bit of grey dust build-up in the fan so I've cleaned what I can access with cotton wool but its hard to access it properly and its still making a noise.
I was thinking of getting some compressed air to clean it with, but had a look at Amazon and I can't find any I trust. Everything on Amazon seems to seems to be dodgy stuff from China and have really mixed reviews with a lot of negative reviews about it just spraying liquid instead which isn't ideal with electronics. Found one on Amazon that looked professional but zooming into the picture there's multiple spelling mistakes on the can so clearly a very dodgy Chinese knock off again who can't afford a spellchecker so who knows what you're actually getting?
Any advice on anything I can get that's reliable?
Are you able to replace it? Might also be worn bearings. Fans are normally dirt cheap. Some laptops aren't too bad to take apart.
Amazon is a nightmare of rip-offs, Chinese tat and fakes these days, but compressed air is hard to get wrong.
My usual technique to remove dust is a big hoover with a small nozzle. Maybe risking static if you aren't careful but it works for me.
For removing gunge, an alcohol based cleaner is fine (or something like this).
If need be I will try and replace it, but I wanted to try other solutions first if viable, especially since everything in the Laptop seems to be quite connected. I've built my own PC before and PC components are generally quite a bit simpler to isolate, but in the Laptop there seem to be multiple things connected to the fan so stripping it apart and replacing elements will be a last sort.
Yeah, try the easy solution first.
I took a laptop apart to fix it the other week - as usual it was a bit fiddly. You have to be very careful with the tiny connectors and make sure you stick screws on labelled bits of paper. In this case it probably wasn't economic to fix but I hate binning stuff that can still be made to work, so fixed it was.
I wish more items were made easily repairable - it is something that really bugs me, particularly when there's no need to make it difficult. Glue is an abomination. As are cheap capacitors.
I have 2 issues it seems.
When I unscrew the case, then on one side the case is proving very difficult to remove. On the left hand side, just under one of the USB ports its proving very difficult to separate even after ensuring all clips are open (I can actually see the clip has separated, but its still not coming off.
I can remove it all apart from that one section - and on that one section it looks like it is pulling up something metallic when I try to lift it. I've watched YouTube videos for my model* and the metal that is lifting up with the case seems like it is a part of the heat sink. I can't see any evidence for it on the plastic, but fear that a part of the case may have melted or otherwise got attached onto the heatsink and don't want to just yank off the case, in case I snap anything, including the heat sink which is quite a big one.
Second issue is that as I suspected, the copper heatsink is spread all over the Laptop and needs removing before you can remove the fans. So will need to get thermal paste, alcohol wipes etc in order to replace the fan, as well as ordering a new fan, if it comes to it.
* sort of, the video is for an Asus Tuf FA506, mine is an Asus Tuf FA506I - sceptical if the I makes a big difference, what I can see of the internals looks identical.
Hmm.
It is always difficult to know exactly how much force to apply with these things, but having seen a video it looks like it shouldn't be hard, so there's something not right.
Melting would be a manufacturing fault for which they might be liable even if outside the warranty.
PEBKAC applied there. 🤦♂️
There was another screw I was missing, hidden under a "void if removed" sticker whose text had mostly faded. I now have the word VOID repeatedly showing on the case but it comes off easily.
Got easy access now, cleaned it as best as I could with cotton wool but still very noisy when I turn the machine on, even from cold. I think its a bearing issue.
I suspect I'll have to remove the heatsink, replace the fan, reapply the thermal paste and restore the heatsink.
But I've got a can of compressed air on order just in case that easier fix does help. Not holding my breath though.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
I have to say I do not experience drivers much over the speed limits in our area, not least because the number of speed traps and cameras make it very risky for your driving licence
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
Let me get this right - the local BigG Drakeford-haters actually want a blanket 20?
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
The Brynglas tunnel was a bottleneck 25 years ago, when I was a student in Aber. It’s up there with the A303 at Stonehenge, as an example of political failure to fix a traffic problem, with massive negative effects on both local economies and the environment caused by delays and congestion.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
Let me get this right - the local BigG Drakeford-haters actually want a blanket 20?
I am not a hater of any politician Drakeford included, but he is not implementing this change in a manner that will take the public with him
I expect within 6 months the policy will be reviewed and adjusted to address many concerns
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
This is how political debate was back before Farage, indyref, Brexit and Covid.
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
Pretty much what I was thinking, this thread and the last too. (Though not your perceptive comment re the Drake.) Some interesting points made on all sides.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
Let me get this right - the local BigG Drakeford-haters actually want a blanket 20?
I am not sure of their politics, probably a mixture of (former) Tories, Greens, PC and Labour. The Vale Council seem to have adopted a perfectly reasonable compromise, but the elderly dog walkers want 20 is plenty all round. We also have rabid Brexity elderly speed freaks in my circle. I have been in the car with one of them and 20 was more than plenty. It would have helped if the speed limit was 20 for the entire journey. At 60 my reactions aren't what they were at 40, but at 80 I plan to have been flogging the life out of my free bus pass for a year or two prior (unless FOM is reinstated and I can F O to France!)
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Doesn't this come down to Barty's point about building bypasses around built-up areas? Plenty of room to do it in mid-Wales; straighten the main roads out and keep the main traffic flow out of towns and villages.
If the demand's there, then why not do it? I can't see why traffic should ever be allowed to rush down streets filled with shops and people's front doors at 30 or 40 mph.
Boom! Yes that is exactly it!
Build new roads. There may not be space for it in London, but there bloody well is in the North, or in Wales, or in almost all the rest of the country.
Then convert residential roads to slower roads, once they're no longer through roads.
Everyone wins then.
Otherwise, if its a through road, it should be 30 or 40. Even if there's some front doors on it, if thousands of cars are going down the road then kids aren't going to be playing football on the road anyway and 30 or 40 is a reasonable speed. But build a by-pass and there won't be thousands of cars anymore and you can take it slow if its not for through traffic anymore.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
Sure, but think about the underlying speed at which he might have been driving.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
Let me get this right - the local BigG Drakeford-haters actually want a blanket 20?
Quite commonly 20mph zones are furiously opposed locally, then enthusiastically supported once implemented. I was surprised here by how much more pleasant driving locally has become (generally because of fewer stand-offs when double parking has reduced the street to one lane. People are driving more slowly and thus have more reaction time to tuck in)
This is how political debate was back before Farage, indyref, Brexit and Covid.
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
Pretty much what I was thinking, this thread and the last too. (Though not your perceptive comment re the Drake.) Some interesting points made on all sides.
Edit: the political equivalent of Slow Food.
A few lurking former posters will be getting increasingly furious and contemptuous. Even the death penalty dealt with Lyons coffee-house style.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
Let me get this right - the local BigG Drakeford-haters actually want a blanket 20?
I am not sure of their politics, probably a mixture of (former) Tories, Greens, PC and Labour. The Vale Council seem to have adopted a perfectly reasonable compromise, but the elderly dog walkers want 20 is plenty all round. We also have rabid Brexity elderly speed freaks in my circle. I have been in the car with one of them and 20 was more than plenty. It would have helped if the speed limit was 20 for the entire journey. At 60 my reactions aren't what they were at 40, but at 80 I plan to have been flogging the life out of my free bus pass for a year or two prior (unless FOM is reinstated and I can F O to France!)
Thanks. Fascinating, once I had got the speeds and ages sorted out! Obviously I was unfair to BigG, even in jest!
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
I can't find any statement from RNLI on this?
(Except that they have imposed a 20 knot non-emergency limit on themselves to save fuel costs...)
My son is a sea going crew member and even a few minutes delay can be tragic
As for a 20 knot non emergency limit that is not happening here not least because if they are not on emergency they are training the crews in high speed rescues
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Welcome
On an important pedantry point, I don't know what an "ebike" is, never mind a "souped up ebike"; it's either a pedal cycle or a moped / motorbike.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Doesn't this come down to Barty's point about building bypasses around built-up areas? Plenty of room to do it in mid-Wales; straighten the main roads out and keep the main traffic flow out of towns and villages.
If the demand's there, then why not do it? I can't see why traffic should ever be allowed to rush down streets filled with shops and people's front doors at 30 or 40 mph.
Boom! Yes that is exactly it!
Build new roads. There may not be space for it in London, but there bloody well is in the North, or in Wales, or in almost all the rest of the country.
Then convert residential roads to slower roads, once they're no longer through roads.
Everyone wins then.
Otherwise, if its a through road, it should be 30 or 40. Even if there's some front doors on it, if thousands of cars are going down the road then kids aren't going to be playing football on the road anyway and 30 or 40 is a reasonable speed. But build a by-pass and there won't be thousands of cars anymore and you can take it slow if its not for through traffic anymore.
The trouble, as always, is the nimbys. Every bypass you build is either going through someone’s garden or going past their beloved rural view.
And this is one situation where nimbyism is understandable even if it’s also damaging from a utilitarian perspective. Few people who own houses with quiet country outlooks would not put in a planning objection to a new bypass within eye or earshot, because of the impact on property value. Even Yimbys. The nimby yimby exists.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
Sure, but think about the underlying speed at which he might have been driving.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
That's something that's crying out for regulatory changes, then. Given the prevalence of driving through built-up areas in the UK, it doesn't really make sense for cars not to be able to handle it properly!
This conversation will seem quaint in a few years. We are close to the time when most cars will be automatically speed-limited by geolocation and will have adaptive cruise control meaning most time in built up areas they’ll be around 20 or less in order to maintain distance.
But also a smoother flow of traffic, too.
I do wonder about this. It sounded a bit dystopian to me at first, but might the quid pro quo not being that it would enable convoying on trunk roads? If so, it would allow separation distances to be vastly decreased, and so increase road capacity and likely decrease journey time.
If self driving continues to be a far-off mirage, might something like this prove 80% of the benefit for 20% of the cost?
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
Sure, but think about the underlying speed at which he might have been driving.
From the reports it doesn't look speed related
I don't mean speeding - simply the difference between crashing at a legal speed of 30mph vs 20mph (or at least starting the accident at those speeds). It's a big difference in terms of the result. But perhaps the poor gentleman had a stroke or angina or similar episode anyway.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
Yep. 20mph 24/7 on London’s residential roads makes sense.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
That's something that's crying out for regulatory changes, then. Given the prevalence of driving through built-up areas in the UK, it doesn't really make sense for cars not to be able to handle it properly!
This conversation will seem quaint in a few years. We are close to the time when most cars will be automatically speed-limited by geolocation and will have adaptive cruise control meaning most time in built up areas they’ll be around 20 or less in order to maintain distance.
But also a smoother flow of traffic, too.
I do wonder about this. It sounded a bit dystopian to me at first, but might the quid pro quo not being that it would enable convoying on trunk roads? If so, it would allow separation distances to be vastly decreased, and so increase road capacity and likely decrease journey time.
If self driving continues to be a far-off mirage, might something like this prove 80% of the benefit for 20% of the cost?
Ultimately it does end up with something like that, I suppose. On reflection I was thinking of dim memories of reading about studies of urban traffic at some density. But then traffic tends to bunch up when going through choke points such as villages, even irrespective of speed limits on top.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
It’s not a blanket 20mph though is it? The Drake isn’t going to reduce the M4 west of Chepstow to 20mph is he?
He might as well, it's a miracle if you can exceed 20 between the Coldra and the Brynglas Tunnel.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
The Brynglas tunnel was a bottleneck 25 years ago, when I was a student in Aber. It’s up there with the A303 at Stonehenge, as an example of political failure to fix a traffic problem, with massive negative effects on both local economies and the environment caused by delays and congestion.
I was very enthusiastic for the Southern M4 relief for years. I was also enthusiastic for the Estuary Airport at Llanwern which raises its's head every decade or so (despite living near Rhoose - I flew out to Belfast from there today- it was great). Neither are affordable and neither fulfill any future requirements. More roads mean more gridlocked traffic. I know because at 30,000 per year I am one of the problems.
I used to use the North and South circs in London and couldn't wait for the M25. 30 years on and the M25 is unusable. As the late Leon commented before his untimely demise " the private car is dead" or at least it should be, I am not sure ULEZ and 20 mph fit the bill, but this Government winning the next election as the motorist's friend is insanity and a lie.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
Sure, but think about the underlying speed at which he might have been driving.
From the reports it doesn't look speed related
I don't mean speeding - simply the difference between crashing at a legal speed of 30mph vs 20mph (or at least starting the accident at those speeds). It's a big difference in terms of the result. But perhaps the poor gentleman had a stroke or angina or similar episode anyway.
It seems a mystery why someone of his age should be out alone at that time of night with a sad outcome
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Isn't the problem one of the inflexibility of speed limits?
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
Plenty of people trying to stagger across Camden High Street at 3am - I know, I've been one of them more often than I care to mention!
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
If you're out on CHS at 3am, you're fair game, Lei!
Seriously, I'm sure you take my point, and in a way make my argument for flexibility and common sense better than I do. Without it we finish up with zero tolerance and zero speed limits. Nobody can move faster than a steady walk because it's the only way to ensure complete safety.
The Queen has done nothing since visiting Sandringham Flower show on the 26th of July. What's she been doing?!
I was about to say you can't really criticise the Queen for inactivity, given she's dead, but then realised you mean the current consort to KC3
I got a bit confused by HYUFD saying earlier "the King and Camilla" have gone orf to Balmoral or wherever it is an outrage that community heating systems might one day just possibly be installed.
Yes, I noticed that myself. It's always the most ardent royalists who seem to dislike the Queen the most, but I wouldn't have thought that HYUFD was really the "bring back Ar Die!" type...
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
It seems that Labour are determined to give the Tory Party a reprieve.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
It is certain that the policy will be reviewed and expect many more 30mph zones reinstated
Was talking to a friend of mine in rural Gwynedd today.
She was grumbling loudly that the new speed limits will increase her travel time to the nearest hospital by 50%.
Sounds well rural.
Between Carmarthen (Glangwili) in the south west, Merthyr in the south east, Wrexham in the north east and Bangor in the north west, there is precisely one hospital in Wales with an A and E department and a meaningful level of inpatient care - Ysbyty Bronglais in Aberystwyth.
Almost all the other hospitals are 'community hospitals' I.e. in effect glorified GP surgeries. Even if the handful that are not, most now do not even have minor injury units because they can't afford the staff.
Thing is, almost all of mid Wales is what most people in pretty much any part of England, the Valleys and the Scottish lowlands would think of as 'well rural.' There are two air ambulances (one of which was nearly axed recently) and only one significant road that is more than a single carriageway - the Newport bypass.
This is one reason why I'm thinking lower speed limits might have hidden costs.
A 50% increase suggests the journey between the persons home and the hospital is entirely 30mph limit at the mo. If the hospital is Ysbyty Bronglais, then maximum travel time to the hospital on a non-emergency call is 10 mins, if that.
Of course, the waiting time at the hospital will be a bit less given a reduction in the number of road traffic colission injuries, so they will probably get some of the time back
Ten minutes? What the fuck are you smoking?
Are you seriously suggesting you can get from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth in 10 minutes? Even Max Verstappen couldn't do that in an F1 car!
It is going up from an hour to an hour and a half because of the very large number of villages the route passes through.
Which is again one of the curses of the roads of mid-Wales. Of the major towns, only Welshpool, Newtown (just) Dolgellau and (bizarrely) Newbridge on Wye have by-passes.
But Drakeford, in his infinite wisdom, which has been assembled in a lifetime of never leaving the south, has declared he's building no more as they only encourage traffic.
Just doing some maths. You're friend suggested the new limits would increase journey times by 50%. That could only happen entirely within what is now a 30mph zone.
Not even then as you're very unlikely to go at a steady 30mph now and steady 20mph after. You'll stop for lights, slow for roundabouts, traffic etc.
I'm starting to think ydoethur's friend might have made a mistake.
I would say I'm starting to think you're talking nonsense.
But to be honest, you've talked that on this subject all the way through.
I will admit you did correct one mistake when it was pointed out to you, putting forward an irrelevant thesis.
So is the direct route to the hospital from your friend's place entirely on 30mph roads, all of which are being converted to 20mph?
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).*
No. It is entirely on roads that will be affected in different stretches, some being cut from 40 to 20, some from 30 to 20, and some from 60 to 40.
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Doesn't this come down to Barty's point about building bypasses around built-up areas? Plenty of room to do it in mid-Wales; straighten the main roads out and keep the main traffic flow out of towns and villages.
If the demand's there, then why not do it? I can't see why traffic should ever be allowed to rush down streets filled with shops and people's front doors at 30 or 40 mph.
Boom! Yes that is exactly it!
Build new roads. There may not be space for it in London, but there bloody well is in the North, or in Wales, or in almost all the rest of the country.
Then convert residential roads to slower roads, once they're no longer through roads.
Everyone wins then.
Otherwise, if its a through road, it should be 30 or 40. Even if there's some front doors on it, if thousands of cars are going down the road then kids aren't going to be playing football on the road anyway and 30 or 40 is a reasonable speed. But build a by-pass and there won't be thousands of cars anymore and you can take it slow if its not for through traffic anymore.
The trouble, as always, is the nimbys. Every bypass you build is either going through someone’s garden or going past their beloved rural view.
And this is one situation where nimbyism is understandable even if it’s also damaging from a utilitarian perspective. Few people who own houses with quiet country outlooks would not put in a planning objection to a new bypass within eye or earshot, because of the impact on property value. Even Yimbys. The nimby yimby exists.
Look at Dorchester (Dorset, not Oxon). I took Mrs C to be for a holiday there many years ago. Happy walks to Maiden Castle and the Roman aqueduct. Went back with her about 12 years ago, got a hell of a shock and not just because of Poundbury (the Carolingian develoipment, not the hillfort). Huge bypasses right across both tracts, and a farmer carefully ploughing up and spraying the only surviving right of way to Maiden Castle from our B&B. Yet the improvement to Dorchester itself ...
This is how political debate was back before Farage, indyref, Brexit and Covid.
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
Pretty much what I was thinking, this thread and the last too. (Though not your perceptive comment re the Drake.) Some interesting points made on all sides.
Edit: the political equivalent of Slow Food.
A few lurking former posters will be getting increasingly furious and contemptuous. Even the death penalty dealt with Lyons coffee-house style.
Make Britain Boring Again is part of Starmer's appeal.
It was meant to be Rishi's as well, but somehow that never quite took.
Switzerland is boring, and look how pleasant that is as a place to live
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
The Queen has done nothing since visiting Sandringham Flower show on the 26th of July. What's she been doing?!
I was about to say you can't really criticise the Queen for inactivity, given she's dead, but then realised you mean the current consort to KC3
"The Queen" refers to the little old lady who died about this time last year, in my head. She is the only queen to whom you can casually attach the definite article. Anyone else who might consider themselves a Queen needs an explanatory name or queendom. (e.g. Queen Camilla, or the Queen of the Netherlands, etc.)
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
I think that last line is an important insight. You can, however, reduce the probability.
We intellectually try and divide the population into "good drivers" and "bad drivers", whilst it's actually a spectrum - with varying probabilities of collisison and injuries.
The likes of IAM and ROSPA talk about Advanced Driver Training as reducing the probability of a collision by two-thirds (that's probably an old number).
Quite often when debating vids online of some driver or other doing something dangerous (eg overtaking at over the speed limit in limited space between two parked rows of vehicles), or dangerously close passing someone riding a bike, the remark is "no one was hurt, what's the problem?"
That comment entirely ignores what will happen statistically when 1000 people do it 1000 times. It only needs one pedestrian to step out for a fatality to happen.
That's the point - we all make mistakes, and it's about reducing the damaging consequences of mistakes, and eliminating as far as possible behaviours that increase the probability.
In the UK it is noticeable that New Labour managed to reduce road deaths by half in a decade, and progress stopped dead when the current slopey-shouldered Government came in. With appropriate measures we could have had far fewer people killed on our roads in the last decade. Source:https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/united-kingdom-road-safety.pdf page 8.
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Mine does 20mph just fine. Third gear.
Does it double as a sewing machine when in 1st gear?
Mine does cruise control down to 18mph. And some newer ones go down to even lower speeds.
You do realise how many lives will be put at risk when the emergency services are affected by this, with concerns already expressed by the police that only highly trained officers will be permitted to exceed the new limit and in the case of RNLI volunteers they will experience delays as they cannot exceed the speed limits notwithstanding every second counts when saving lives at sea
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
I'd have thought the emergency services would welcome fewer road casualties.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
Again you miss the point
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Do we have real evidence on this? The only one I have seen was a 'leaked memo', where the Welsh Police pointed out that it was part of a document pulled out of context.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
In the early hours of the morning (circa 3.30am) a few days ago an 80year old male drove his car into a wall on Colwyn Bay promenade and was fatally injured
You cannot eliminate accidents
That's disingenuous. A child hit by a car at 39mph is substantially less likely to survive than a child hit by a car at 20mph.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
Believe me I have driven the A9 every year, sometimes several times a year, since 1965 and cameras are endemic
Seattle Times ($) - Ferry runs aground in San Juan Islands, out of service for repairs
The ferry Chelan ran aground Sunday night in Wasp Passage as it was headed from Orcas Island to Friday Harbor on San Juan Island.
The Chelan, which travels between the San Juan Islands, was on its last run of the night when it hit the shoreline of the narrow passage around 9:40 p.m., said Ian Sterling, a spokesperson at Washington State Ferries. The Chelan is out of service while crews investigate and make repairs. There is no estimated time for when the ferry will resume service.
There were four passengers and two cars on the vessel. No one was hurt and everybody was taken safely to shore, Sterling said.
The Chelan sustained damage above the waterline — a small hole, which has been patched — as well as damage to the propeller, “which would be in line with what you’d expect if you hit the shoreline,” Sterling said.
While the Chelan is out of service, the inter-island service is suspended, “and that’s a real hassle for folks who live up in the San Juan Islands, and we’re highly aware of that,” Sterling said.
WSF is working to bring in a replacement boat to restore inter-island service, but there is no estimated time for the route to resume.
Sunday’s crash is the second grounding this year; the ferry Walla Walla lost power in April due to a gas contamination issue and ran ashore on Bainbridge Island.
SSI - Note that the San Juan Islands were once disputed territory between USA and UK and locale for the "Pig War" between the two in 1859.
My only criticism of this vid, is that THC is apparently unaware that Vancouver, BC was not yet in existence at time of Pig War, though there was (and still is) Vancouver, Washington.
Van BC was creation of CPR = Canadian Pacific Railroad.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Also, all the time you save not paying for things in outdated, innefficient cash will end up weighing a little heavy after a while, so being made to drive at 20mph everywhere is a good way of using it all back up again. Clever of them to do it really.
My car does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and has a top speed of 147mph.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
Nobody is arguing around the limit for schools
But you are happy for 30-40mph traffic in residential areas where children live. They don't spend all day at school. Schools are a red herring and an excuse not to do it elswehere.
Where have I said 30-40 mph are OK in residential areas
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
30mph nominal, in practice people speed over somewhat. Hence the range from 30 to 40 or so.
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
Do you not have speed cameras every 5 yards in Scotland ?
No. You shouldn't believe too much of what PBScottishExperts say.
Believe me I have driven the A9 every year, sometimes several times a year, since 1965 and cameras are endemic
Shame not to be able to drive dangerously, isn't it?
Surrey County Council demonstrating total incompetence. Popped down to the pub and the road was closed. These things happen. Stuff has to be fixed. So I went in the opposite direction to find the road closed that way also. OK must be an emergency then. But no I went on the Surrey County Council web site and both closures were scheduled for the same day.
The roadsigns on the A31 between Farnham and Guildford are now almost completely obscured by foliage growth that has been allowed to run unchecked for months. Many people have mentioned it to them.
What on earth is wrong with them?
Come to Wales from 17th September and all the 30mph will have shiny new 20mph signs
We all know you love Mr Drakeford to bits, but you do have to admit that some of the 30mph zones will still be there. Don't want to confuse the rUK PBers, do we?
A very limited number in our area and in some cases they are justified
However a blanket ban with odd exceptions is unacceptable as local businesses, bus services, and taxis all complain
Having read the various docs, it seems to be a sensible process and setup.
The reduced speeds and resulting reduced casualty figures may be coming in just in time to expose the UK Governments policies arounds roads and streets for the shitshow that they have become.
Perhaps some interim results March-April 2024; more in autumn 2024.
Casualty figures in the UK are very low, and casualty rates on the roads are safer than they've ever been.
If we were going off objective figures, increasing speed limits to 40 that are currently 30 should be considered safe compared to the risks of 30 in the past.
Still today road safety awareness campaigns use the lie/myth that pedestrians hit at 30 have a 20% chance of death, versus an 80% chance at 40 - which is a figure that dates back to the 1970s.
Nowadays today a pedestrian hit at 40 has a 17% chance of death. So hitting a pedestrian at 40 today is safer than hitting a pedestrian at 30 was in the 1970s.
Cars have been designed to be safer than ever before, which includes for pedestrians not just drivers. So if speed limits are to change, then lets increase them.
I'm not in a position to, nor interested in, disputing your data. However, I would point out that a pedestrian hit by a car cannot simply be categorised as 'dead' or 'not dead', in the sense that the vast majority of pedestrians hit by a car are likely to be injured, seriously injured, or very seriously injured. The slower the car is going, the less serious the injury, logically.
However, I've absolutely no intention of getting into a debate with you and already regret posting on this. Sorry.
ISTR various studies showing 20mph zones do absolutely nothing to reduce casualties. Can't remember why not.
Because cars aren’t designed to do 20mph, and drivers spend too much time looking at their speed rather than outside.
Is it not possible for them to be modified in some way to make it more efficient? Changing the gear ratios or something?
Do BEVs suffer from the same issue?
Most cars won’t engage cruise control at such a low speed, and cars simply aren’t designed to go that slowly for long distances. Perhaps some EVs and modern active cruise systems can do it, I don’t know.
That's something that's crying out for regulatory changes, then. Given the prevalence of driving through built-up areas in the UK, it doesn't really make sense for cars not to be able to handle it properly!
This conversation will seem quaint in a few years. We are close to the time when most cars will be automatically speed-limited by geolocation and will have adaptive cruise control meaning most time in built up areas they’ll be around 20 or less in order to maintain distance.
But also a smoother flow of traffic, too.
I do wonder about this. It sounded a bit dystopian to me at first, but might the quid pro quo not being that it would enable convoying on trunk roads? If so, it would allow separation distances to be vastly decreased, and so increase road capacity and likely decrease journey time.
If self driving continues to be a far-off mirage, might something like this prove 80% of the benefit for 20% of the cost?
I think so. Here’s an anecdote for you.
A couple of years ago (must have been just pre-Covid) I was on a train and got talking to the man opposite. He was an academic whose object of study was traffic automation, from cruise control to autonomous vehicles. He was writing a paper on the use of motorway-level controls for vehicles, along the lines of the convoying you mentioned.
He was of the opinion the Americans, with their disruptor mentality and individualism, were desperate to achieve full autonomy in one fell swoop with the car being the primary unit of control, but would never get there because of the litigation risk. Europeans, with their usual incrementalism, were approaching autonomy one step at a time and with the transport system itself being the primary mode of control. Ie centralised traffic data and instructions on speed, distance etc being transmitted to cars from the equivalent of air traffic control.
He thought the European approach more likely to succeed, at least over here. Smart motorways being the jumping off point for some of these developments.
I still struggle with Lucy Letby. The motive and psychological explanation still seems wholly insufficient to me.
Why would someone do something like that? And if they did chose to do it, why would they do so, repeatedly and of their own volition, unless they were mad?
My confusion is probably compounded by the fact she's young, female, was popular and not unattractive.
It's easier if none of those things apply. But they do in her case.
Presumably she's a psychopath. Certainly some of the trial evidence suggested a narcissistic personality. Psychopathy is less common among women than men, but I don't think is less prevalent among the young, the popular or the not unattractive.
How does one become a psychopath? And surely that's a sign of mental illness, right?
No-one really knows. However, a distinction is usually drawn between “axis 1” disorders, what we might call your usual mental illness like anxiety and depression, and “axis 2” or personality disorders, like psychopathy. Personality disorders appear to be something a person is born with, although some people with psychopathic tendencies grow up to be functioning members of society and some don’t. It may be a combination of personality disorder and upbringing that determines whether somebody becomes a dangerous psychopath.
I believe that psychopathy and sociopathy are both forms of Antisocial Personality Disorder, and there've been reports in the press that suggest that Letby likely has this this as well as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I don't know what evidence that's based on, or if there's been a formal diagnosis. But if it's true, it'll be a horrible combination, both for her (and as we now know) the people around her.
There are therapies available which can help mitigate the effects, but I think they tend to be of the type that only work if the subject genuinely wants to change their behaviour: it's not as simple as giving them a CBT app and hoping for the best.
I don't know if intensive therapy is ever available in prisons. I don't even know if it should be, at least for those who have no prospect of ever being released like Letby.
It's all very tricky. Not least this. When people go round murdering people when the murderer suffers from psychotic disorder of some sort we are horrified but feel also a sympathy for their plight. It happens quite a bit and generates much less attention and hostility than the other sorts.
Psychopathy and sociopathy, and narcissistic personality disorder are also plainly disorders. But the medical profession treats them differently, on the whole by not treating them - regarding it as untreatable. And the criminal system treats it differently too - as in our case today.
For most of us, just doing, systematically, what Letby did simply proves of itself that she is insane in ordinary language. Sane people could not do it if they tried. It can't be done. But she is treated as sane. I don't find this very comforting really.
This is how political debate was back before Farage, indyref, Brexit and Covid.
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
Pretty much what I was thinking, this thread and the last too. (Though not your perceptive comment re the Drake.) Some interesting points made on all sides.
Edit: the political equivalent of Slow Food.
A few lurking former posters will be getting increasingly furious and contemptuous. Even the death penalty dealt with Lyons coffee-house style.
Make Britain Boring Again is part of Starmer's appeal.
It was meant to be Rishi's as well, but somehow that never quite took.
Switzerland is boring, and look how pleasant that is as a place to live
When we (the UK) appear to be on a fast moving conveyor belt to economical armageddon, steadily remaining on course tends to lose it's charm, and wildly thrashing about starts making sense.
Comments
(and yes, sorry for that incorrect link. You will remember I followed up with the correct one, showing the reduction in injuries and fatalities).
The entire route is 31 miles, and it looks like about 15 miles will be affected one way or another.
Which, when the slow down and speed up time and probable reduced traffic flow from people who always drive well below whatever the speed limit is taken into account, will increase the time from an hour to an hour and a half on average.
I think it just feeds into the narrative that the government in Cardiff are a bunch of soi-distant idiots who don't know or care about Wales any more than Thatcher's Tories did.
*at the second prompting, but to be fair, the first was in an edit.
Third fastest only 0.05 out of first after a quite appalling start in the semi.
That’s a keeper, even by PB standards.
*No sign that is to be cut and given it's a rather bizarre 30 limit already that really would be taking the piss.
It also cruises along perfectly nicely at 20mph.
(which is absolutely plenty for the residential double-parked, schools-heavy streets in my part of north London)
The problem here is that properly applied 20mph zones round schools and busy streets would receive widespread support, but just making all 30 mph zones (with a few exceptions) default to 20mph is not the way to win over hearts and minds as to be clear for this to work it needs public consent including from motorists, bus companies, taxis and businesses
If the demand's there, then why not do it? I can't see why traffic should ever be allowed to rush down streets filled with shops and people's front doors at 30 or 40 mph.
South Wales Fire and Rescue service: Our crews regularly see the devastating impacts that road traffic collisions can have, including in built up areas where people and vehicles mix closely.
"We are therefore pleased to support our partners to raise awareness of the importance of speed limits to keep everyone safe.
But Drakeford has declared 'no more roads!' because he thinks we must Do Less Driving due to the climate emergency.
Which is a perfectly logical position if he had any thought as to what people living rural Wales are to do instead in the absence of railways, bus services, schools, hospitals and even shops.
Unless he's proposing ethnic cleansing on a grand scale, there needs to be some thought given to that.
But because he's a grade A twat, and pig ignorant to boot, he won't.
He really did miss a fabulous career at OFSTED.
20mph may make perfect sense at 3pm but not 3am, but you get done for 24mph at either time.
It is not beyond the wit of man and modern technology to fix this problem but is there the will to do so?
Most London Boroughs have universal 20mph limits now and of course they apply 24/7, even though when you are going down Camden High Street at 3am you are unlikely to see any pedestrians and only the occasional milk float on the road.
I don't know how it is in Wales but in London there is a definite anti-car mindset amongst officials, elected and otherwise, which means that common sense in this matter is not very common.
There are hardly any 20mph limits in Gwynedd, all the rural 30mph roads are staying at 30. he only way to have a 50% increase is to have literally all your route on 20mph roads, in which case you're living around the corner from the hospital, and it adds a couple of minutes. So, in this, case, nah.
It's driving at <70 on motorways and dual carriageways I struggle with. Hence a motorway speed awareness course on Wednesday...
Having seen what's set to happen, I'm thinking that might have been naive of me.
It depends on where the impetus for the lower limits is coming from, but if they're going to have a Margaret Beckett-style obsession with cutting everything that low, how much worse would it be if every twit with a councillor's rosette shoved their oar in with screams of 'will nobody think of dead children/dogs/pet monkeys...'
Whether she passed the tests for what passes as judicially decreed sanity is irrelevant, she's f***ing nuts, like Shipman and Allit. Playing God, if that was the rationale is f***ing nuts. One can differentiate this behaviour, I would suggest from Brady, Bellfield, Pitchfork, Black and Tobin, whose motives were sexual.gratification.
Anyway, she's banged up and can harm no more. She has sixty years to contemplate why the f*** she did what she did.The main preoccupation now should be the bringing to justice those, whose dereliction of duty facilitated her killing spree. Not just nursing managers but senior managers on substantial
pounds a year Maybe one, two or three deaths or attempted deaths were solely down to Lucy Letby, but she had tacit assistance with the rest.
I don't know what evidence that's based on, or if there's been a formal diagnosis. But if it's true, it'll be a horrible combination, both for her (and as we now know) the people around her.
There are therapies available which can help mitigate the effects, but I think they tend to be of the type that only work if the subject genuinely wants to change their behaviour: it's not as simple as giving them a CBT app and hoping for the best.
I don't know if intensive therapy is ever available in prisons. I don't even know if it should be, at least for those who have no prospect of ever being released like Letby.
“Restricted roads are usually located in residential and built-up areas where there are lots of people. They often have street lights on them, placed no more than 200 yards apart.”
https://www.gov.wales/introducing-default-20mph-speed-limits
Not a fan of Richardson myself, for all the obvious reasons, but a good run tonight none the less.
20mph zones have their place but a virtual blanket 20 mph will have other consequences in delays in emergency services and access to hospitals, and on the coast the RNLI volunteers crews often have only minutes to save lives and even a few minutes delay could be tragic
Problem In Chair Not In Car.
I wonder whether they will be restoring through traffic to Downing Street, since those physical barriers seem to meet the criteria?
Here's one known to me - a modal filter to block rat-running traffic, installed on Raleigh Street in Nottingham in the 1970s. I used to walk past it on the way to school.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/20/review-of-low-traffic-neighbourhoods-risks-creating-rat-runs-say-campaigners
(Except that they have imposed a 20 knot non-emergency limit on themselves to save fuel costs...)
30mph is the present sensible default and on occasions 20mph
The issue is not the change but the way it is being implemented
Mind you I believe it is coming to Scotland next year so let's see how that plays out
Apoplogies, should have been clearer.
There was another screw I was missing, hidden under a "void if removed" sticker whose text had mostly faded. I now have the word VOID repeatedly showing on the case but it comes off easily.
Got easy access now, cleaned it as best as I could with cotton wool but still very noisy when I turn the machine on, even from cold. I think its a bearing issue.
I suspect I'll have to remove the heatsink, replace the fan, reapply the thermal paste and restore the heatsink.
But I've got a can of compressed air on order just in case that easier fix does help. Not holding my breath though.
Thanks.
BigG sees a party political bonus here, and he is right to the extent that implementation has been cack handed. There is not a blanket 30 to 20 conversion. It is true that if street lights are present assume 20 unless otherwise instructed. In my village a specific area has had the sign posts, but not the signs put up. The oldsters are apoplectic with rage and they want the entire village a blanket 20 and have lobbied Vale of Glamorgan council.
Andrew RT Davies, was by the way, supportive until Uxbridge and he realised there was a vote in it for him.
All three Welsh Emergency Services supporting the 20mph default speed limit with exceptions proposals suggest that this objection is empty.
Also AIUI emergency vehicles on Emergency Call can exceed speed limits (by varying amounts sometimes by policy). If the other traffic is driving more slowly - and the trial areas in Wales have delivered good speed reductions - I would expect it to make it safer since opposing closing speeds will be reduced by the general traffic driving more slowly.
Also I expect there will be fewer call outs to road collisions.
But now we are getting a larger scale experiment, so we should find out.
https://www.rospa.com/media/documents/road-safety/20mph-zones-and-speed-limits-factsheet.pdf
It’s quite pleasant in its own sedate way. As if Mark Drakeford has imposed a 20mph speed limit on PB.
I expect within 6 months the policy will be reviewed and adjusted to address many concerns
Edit: the political equivalent of Slow Food.
It's actually those dead hours that feel most dangerous for pedestrians. A bus whirring along every 5 minutes. A couple of bleary-eyed uber drivers and three or four delivery vans in the same timeframe. All of them stick to 20 mph even when the road ahead of them is clear (more-or-less. I'm not so sure about some of the Uber drivers...)
But then there are the chancers: the wake-the-dead two-stroke motorbikes. Drunken idiots on souped-up ebikes yelling their lungs out as they weave their way down the road at 30mph. The odd private car driver who, not used to being out and about in the wee hours, manages to rush along ignoring zebra crossings, not giving way, and forgetting the usual rules of the road.
It's actually fairly terrifying to be out and about, even as a stone-cold-sober pedestrian, at that time of night on those sort of roads.
You cannot eliminate accidents
Build new roads. There may not be space for it in London, but there bloody well is in the North, or in Wales, or in almost all the rest of the country.
Then convert residential roads to slower roads, once they're no longer through roads.
Everyone wins then.
Otherwise, if its a through road, it should be 30 or 40. Even if there's some front doors on it, if thousands of cars are going down the road then kids aren't going to be playing football on the road anyway and 30 or 40 is a reasonable speed. But build a by-pass and there won't be thousands of cars anymore and you can take it slow if its not for through traffic anymore.
As for a 20 knot non emergency limit that is not happening here not least because if they are not on emergency they are training the crews in high speed rescues
On an important pedantry point, I don't know what an "ebike" is, never mind a "souped up ebike"; it's either a pedal cycle or a moped / motorbike.
A derestricted EAPC is a moped / motorbike.
And this is one situation where nimbyism is understandable even if it’s also damaging from a utilitarian perspective. Few people who own houses with quiet country outlooks would not put in a planning objection to a new bypass within eye or earshot, because of the impact on property value. Even Yimbys. The nimby yimby exists.
If self driving continues to be a far-off mirage, might something like this prove 80% of the benefit for 20% of the cost?
I used to use the North and South circs in London and couldn't wait for the M25. 30 years on and the M25 is unusable. As the late Leon commented before his untimely demise " the private car is dead" or at least it should be, I am not sure ULEZ and 20 mph fit the bill, but this Government winning the next election as the motorist's friend is insanity and a lie.
Seriously, I'm sure you take my point, and in a way make my argument for flexibility and common sense better than I do. Without it we finish up with zero tolerance and zero speed limits. Nobody can move faster than a steady walk because it's the only way to ensure complete safety.
It was meant to be Rishi's as well, but somehow that never quite took.
Switzerland is boring, and look how pleasant that is as a place to live
We intellectually try and divide the population into "good drivers" and "bad drivers", whilst it's actually a spectrum - with varying probabilities of collisison and injuries.
The likes of IAM and ROSPA talk about Advanced Driver Training as reducing the probability of a collision by two-thirds (that's probably an old number).
Quite often when debating vids online of some driver or other doing something dangerous (eg overtaking at over the speed limit in limited space between two parked rows of vehicles), or dangerously close passing someone riding a bike, the remark is "no one was hurt, what's the problem?"
That comment entirely ignores what will happen statistically when 1000 people do it 1000 times. It only needs one pedestrian to step out for a fatality to happen.
That's the point - we all make mistakes, and it's about reducing the damaging consequences of mistakes, and eliminating as far as possible behaviours that increase the probability.
In the UK it is noticeable that New Labour managed to reduce road deaths by half in a decade, and progress stopped dead when the current slopey-shouldered Government came in. With appropriate measures we could have had far fewer people killed on our roads in the last decade.
Source:https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/united-kingdom-road-safety.pdf page 8.
Seattle Times ($) - Ferry runs aground in San Juan Islands, out of service for repairs
The ferry Chelan ran aground Sunday night in Wasp Passage as it was headed from Orcas Island to Friday Harbor on San Juan Island.
The Chelan, which travels between the San Juan Islands, was on its last run of the night when it hit the shoreline of the narrow passage around 9:40 p.m., said Ian Sterling, a spokesperson at Washington State Ferries. The Chelan is out of service while crews investigate and make repairs. There is no estimated time for when the ferry will resume service.
There were four passengers and two cars on the vessel. No one was hurt and everybody was taken safely to shore, Sterling said.
The Chelan sustained damage above the waterline — a small hole, which has been patched — as well as damage to the propeller, “which would be in line with what you’d expect if you hit the shoreline,” Sterling said.
While the Chelan is out of service, the inter-island service is suspended, “and that’s a real hassle for folks who live up in the San Juan Islands, and we’re highly aware of that,” Sterling said.
WSF is working to bring in a replacement boat to restore inter-island service, but there is no estimated time for the route to resume.
Sunday’s crash is the second grounding this year; the ferry Walla Walla lost power in April due to a gas contamination issue and ran ashore on Bainbridge Island.
SSI - Note that the San Juan Islands were once disputed territory between USA and UK and locale for the "Pig War" between the two in 1859.
The History Chap: The British US Pig War 1859 - A Near-Miss Conflict About A Dead Pig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClKrsyeW07k
My only criticism of this vid, is that THC is apparently unaware that Vancouver, BC was not yet in existence at time of Pig War, though there was (and still is) Vancouver, Washington.
Van BC was creation of CPR = Canadian Pacific Railroad.
A couple of years ago (must have been just pre-Covid) I was on a train and got talking to the man opposite. He was an academic whose object of study was traffic automation, from cruise control to autonomous vehicles. He was writing a paper on the use of motorway-level controls for vehicles, along the lines of the convoying you mentioned.
He was of the opinion the Americans, with their disruptor mentality and individualism, were desperate to achieve full autonomy in one fell swoop with the car being the primary unit of control, but would never get there because of the litigation risk. Europeans, with their usual incrementalism, were approaching autonomy one step at a time and with the transport system itself being the primary mode of control. Ie centralised traffic data and instructions on speed, distance etc being transmitted to cars from the equivalent of air traffic control.
He thought the European approach more likely to succeed, at least over here. Smart motorways being the jumping off point for some of these developments.
Psychopathy and sociopathy, and narcissistic personality disorder are also plainly disorders. But the medical profession treats them differently, on the whole by not treating them - regarding it as untreatable. And the criminal system treats it differently too - as in our case today.
For most of us, just doing, systematically, what Letby did simply proves of itself that she is insane in ordinary language. Sane people could not do it if they tried. It can't be done. But she is treated as sane. I don't find this very comforting really.