That's about a mile from where I live. The Bridle Trails neighborhood centers around a park for those who ride horses, and many of the homes there have stables.
Black bears visit these eastside suburbs every year, usually looking for easy food sources, like bird feeders.
They aren't much of a problem. (Grizzly bears (Ursus arctos horribilis), in contrast, you really don't want near populated areas.)
(Occasionally, mountain lions visit. There have even been a few in Seattle itself, over the years. There are many coyotes in this area, of course. It's my impression they keep the feral cat population under control -- but that's not something I mention to cat lovers.)
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Not a dinner party scenario - but at family get together / big work dos I get quite annoyed at the lack of veggie offering; not because there is nothing but because meat eaters will eat both their meat option and my veggie option, meaning the veggie option depletes quite quickly despite not many veggies being at a thing. At work we’ve started ordering veggie only buffets - half the team is veggie or vegan and when we ordered meat options alongside they were always left over but the veggie stuff would go quickly.
Sunak has bigger problems than Anderson, personnel wise. Shapps and Cleverly are both far more personable and charismatic.
When he is flailing in the polls and another 1000 Tory councillors have lost, who then will support him?
Who will support him? Shapps and Cleverly for a start.
You have a theory based on concern from the Tory membership/councillor base that Sunak hasn't got what it takes to turn this around.
I get that, but where you run into problems is that enough of the MPs have decided that the Sunak/Hunt approach of trying to avoid further market chaos whilst throwing out a bit of red meat on immigration, ULEZ etc is the only prospect of limiting losses. They've lashed themselves to the mast, the world king across the water is now an ex-MP, and anyone vaguely credible is resigned to sit it out, survive the election, and stand for leader of the opposition (a much better position than taking the poison chalice with weeks left in the term).
So I just don't see the realistic mechanism for you to get what you want this side of an election.
My feeling is the membership are usually 9 months ahead of the MPs on this.
MPs panic close to an election when polls are low. They'll push the button when they realise they're going to lose their seats otherwise.
Quite a few Tory MPs are standing down, quite a few won't in fact lose their seats (in the 1997 massacre only just over half did), and quite a few who are in serious danger will conclude that defenestration with weeks to go makes their prospects worse not better.
Quite apart from that, is who will take on the job in that situation. All the best candidates will sit on their hands until after the election, leaving a choice between maniacs and incredibly pompous, unappealing Sir Bufton Tufton types answering the nation's call at time of crisis.
I see your frustration, but I don't see how it realistically resolves in the way you describe.
Politics happens very slowly, then all at once.
Local donors will start drying up (this is how Tory MP's election campaign funds are secured), numbers of leaflet deliverers will dry up, councillors will be down.
Plus, come October, the 1 year moratorium on VONC within the PCP expires. It could be there are already a good number in; and every by election lost makes the threshold easier to reach.
Firstly, this assumes Sunak will push a General Election it beyond next May (and a further loss of councillors). I know that's a fairly widespread assumption, but I'm not sure. It's not a great round of elections for the Tories and, particularly if he does feel under any pressure, I think he'll chance it.
Secondly, I think enough Tory activists and donors either quite like Sunak or will stick with it come what may. As with the Lib Dems in 2015, on the ground and in local parties of threatened MPs, there is some rallying round. It may well not save seats - it didn't for the Lib Dems in 2015 - but actually in a backs-to-the-wall situation, quite a lot of people fight rather than take flight. Even being very cynical, if you're an ambitious Tory in the seat of an under-threat MP, you help them man the barricades and come out with a lot of credit as well as a vacancy.
Thirdly, there isn't a great deal of evidence of letters being planned or going in. Maybe there are behind the scenes, and maybe people are bring quiet, but there does need to be some noise to get momentum.
Finally, and crucially, a VONC needs to pass by a majority. I know Johnson went having survived a VONC, but that was through a further scandal and mass resignations. That's just not happening with Sunak - he's not likely to be embroiled in a scandal and his cabinet have either bought into his project or decided to wait until after the election as being disloyal isn't a winning formula.
Every Tory leader since Major who has survived a VONC hasn't survived the year....
The year counting from next may, runs in to ragnarok. This is like a dinosaur 65m and 1 years ago agonizing over whether its diet is the one most likely to ensure its longevity.
Secondly, it is beyond bonkers to think that HM might refuse a dissolution following the Lascelles principles. They and the SA and Canada cases referred to by Lascelles were immediately post GE crises, with a real issue as to what happens for the next 5 years, not at the fag end of a government. Apart from that, we have conventions about conventions in our wacky non codified constitution and the convention is not to put HMK in a spot where he has to make a political decision. If the tories start buggering him about (and it would have to be anti sunakite tories asking him to refuse) the punishment doled out by the electorate at GE 24 or 25 won't be KT, it will be end Permian. It would literally destroy the party. No decade in the wilderness and triumphant return under dishface.
Nope, the monarch wouldn't grant a dissolution because the PM was running scared of his party. Especially the first request for dissolution in the reign....
You really have got this round your neck, haven't you? Your initial misstatement of the case was "You know that the constitutional advice on a PM requesting a dissolution in the event of his imminent ousting is that it won't be accepted, right?" which just completely misunderstands the principles. It isn't a 50-50, mibbee ayes, mibbee naws, sort of call that HMK has to make, like an umpire adjudging an LBW appeal. The default, null, safe option is to grant the dissolution, it's only in insanely rare crises that you think about doing anything else.. If Charles grants a dissolution he isn't really doing anything. Not sticking his head above the parapet. What makes you think he wants to kick off his reign by enabling 6 months of Suella Braverman PM? Most GEs happen after 4 and a bit years anyway, and Sunak can just say he feels it's about time for one. And at the time he makes the request there's unlikely to be anything beyond tittle tattle about letters to Old Lady to suggest an imminent ousting anyway. On the face of it he will command a 62 seat majority.This is merely bonkers.
An insanely rare situation like.....a PM who has lost control of his own party wanting to dissolve parliament?
"Lost control of his party" will be PB tittle tattle, not something of which regal notice has to be taken, at the time he asks Chas to blow the whistle.
Let me guess, you are a disgruntled party member, voted for Truss, itching for a Sunakian Ides of March. Not going to happen. He, to coin a phrase, holds all the cards.
In this context, “lost control of his party” would have to mean he’d lost a formal vote of confidence and was expected to resign as party leader.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
But you don't care if meat eaters feel awkward or out of place having a vegetarian meal given to them?
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
Would you expect a Jewish friend to serve you pork?
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
I wouldn't invite someone for dinner if they expected me to serve them meat, and I wouldn't accept an invitation from someone who was going to insist on serving me meat. It's quite simple.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Not a dinner party scenario - but at family get together / big work dos I get quite annoyed at the lack of veggie offering; not because there is nothing but because meat eaters will eat both their meat option and my veggie option, meaning the veggie option depletes quite quickly despite not many veggies being at a thing. At work we’ve started ordering veggie only buffets - half the team is veggie or vegan and when we ordered meat options alongside they were always left over but the veggie stuff would go quickly.
Stupidity like this is why I'm glad to be the boss.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
Would you expect a Jewish friend to serve you pork?
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
I wouldn't invite someone for dinner if they expected me to serve them meat, and I wouldn't accept an invitation from someone who was going to insist on serving me meat. It's quite simple.
Exactly. The favour is never returned. But I'm guessing if you go elsewhere then you expect a vegetarian option and not simply going along with whatever the host is having?
On the assumption that all the science is correct it seems to me that a technical solution through decarbonisation and adaptation is the most feasible answer to the problem of global warming. It is quite obvious that it is not going to be realistic to stop consumption in developing counties, if you stake all your hopes on this, accepting the massive economic hit that would be involved, then you are going to end up disappointed and you will not innovate (which is necessary to solve the problem) at the same rate.
Perhaps this position is actually a form of faith in technical progress, but there is evidence of success to justify it, ie with the improving efficiency of solar panels, the emergence of electric cars, etc. To the contrary I've seen little evidence that developing countries will slow down their growth in consumption. It seems to me that the environmental activists and their fellow travellers are right to point out the problem but by catastrophising and preaching that consumption is a sin they are actually getting in the way of the optimum solution.
That to me is what feels more like a religious belief "a new technology will save us" where we have no actual reason to believe it will, when instead we have had the means to make the necessary changes in the last 30 years and it was decided not to. If environmentalists making demands for revolution sound like religious zealots, it's partly because the last 30 years have been such monumental failures:
The point is that there have been massive positive technological changes in the past three decades.
The religious are those who say that little or nothing has been done.
That technological change has not reduced the likelihood of climate catastrophe and has increased it. In the last 30 years we've had the incentive, we've had the knowledge and we've had the technology to massively change economies - the issue has been that the "market" (see those invested in oil) have incentives for short term profit over long term sustainability. We do not currently have viable carbon capture tech, and to assume that we will have it in time to save us sounds more akin to a faith based position than the materialist approach of just reducing our dependency on fossil fuels and reducing our consumption. I don't advocate going back to the stone age - we could have a globally average standard of living that is very good that is also not highly destructive to the environment. What you can't have is that and growth growth growth at the same time.
So in your alternative vision, 8 billion people would collectively have a higher standard of living but with lower aggregate consumption? How does that add up?
Redistribution of resources. The analogy of growth is always "you might get a smaller slice, but of a bigger pie, so you'll be richer". I'm saying we need to shrink the pie, but give more people bigger slices. That means some people will get smaller slices, yes, but most of those people already have massive slices and they'll be relatively worse off compared to their life previously, but still very well off compared to the standard of living across the whole of human history. Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates are not people who deserve millions times more resources at their disposal than any other human being.
And that is because you are a religious zealot who doesn't give a damn about the environment.
Shrinking the pie, but keeping dirty technologies, does not help the environment, does not solve CO2 and other emissions, does not address climate change. It does nothing positive.
Having economic growth, with clean technologies, is better for the planet, better for the environment, and raises living standards.
They are not perfect individuals, far from it, but Elon Musk with the assistance he has given to push the switch to electric vehicles and Bill Gates with his Foundation have done more for the planet than anyone in Greenpeace or Just Stop Oil or any other hairshirt zealot ever has.
Elon Musk today is driving down CO2 production by encouraging people to switch off Twitter, so well done that man!
Of course, this argument over reduced consumption vs technological innovation as solutions to climate change is silly. We need both and both are happening.
No, the only thing we need is technological innovation.
Consumption is higher than its ever been, and ought to be higher still in the future. That is a good thing.
And apparently environmentalists are the zealots...
Why must consumption be ever rising?
Because consumption is a good thing. It is a positive for human health and happiness.
So long as it can be sustainably generated from renewable resources, then what could you possibly want to consume less of? Healthcare? Education? Food for those in need?
The world doesn't consume enough, that is why there are people in poverty.
To eliminate hunger, we need more food consumed - and more and better healthier foods to replace calorie-intensive sugars.
To lift everyone to healthy standards of living, we need to be consuming far more than we are now as a species. To do that needs development in sustainable, clean, renewable technologies. Not hairshirts, or leaving people in poverty.
I could consume more now. I could go and eat some ice cream (homemade raspberry), but I'm full after lunch and that wouldn't be good for my health. I could turn the speakers up and consume more electricity, but my background music is as loud as I want it. Maybe I'll turn on my portable radiator and my portable air con unit at the same time! More consumption is not necessarily a good thing for everyone in every situation.
I didn't say it was a good thing for everyone in every situation.
It is a good thing, in aggregate, for our species though.
You may be full after lunch, but others across the planet are hungry.
You may have music, others can't afford entertainment.
You may have your room at a nice temperature, others are too hot or too cold.
To get everyone on the planet to be able to eat as well as you can, have a heated/air conditioned room as well as you can, the entertainment you take for granted etc will require much more consumption globally than we have as a species today.
So either we want people to remain in poverty (I don't), living standards to fall (I don't), or we need more consumption globally (I do).
So the question is how as a species we can both increase consumption and responsibly look after the planet. To which the answer is technology as it has been for hundreds if not thousands of years. But it needs to be clean technologies.
So you accept that overconsumption is possible?
My position is essentially that current occasions of overconsumption is greater than the shortfall needed to make up the under consumption to bring poor people up to a decent standard of living.
I would therefore prefer to look for a solution that equal out this equation using what is already there rather than adding more stuff to the under consumption side to equal it out; redistribution.
Why is that necessarily bad, and why would piling more side onto the under consumption side necessarily be better?
And your position is bullshit.
People are only overconsuming calories because of the abundance of processed crap like sugars, not because of an overconsumption of healthy foods.
How do we ensure everyone on the planet can get abundant supply of healthy beef and other healthy food that we take for granted, without a reliance upon processed carbs?
By leveraging the resources dedicated to processed carbs - the subsidies, the labour, the land, the marketing - to healthier food options. And redistributing what we currently have.
Just on the issue of meat:
Current guidance is more than 90g of red or processed meat a day is probably bad, and that it should be closer to 70g.
Note that the UK averages more than twice the recommended amount, and the US averages more than three times the recommended amount. And we also know that richer people have more access to meat if they want it.
The problem though is that the processed carb crap is less resource intensive than clean foods like meat. A bad food like sugar is a much easier cash crop to generate than a healthy food like beef. So to switch to a healthier diet needs more resources, not less.
The current guidance is out of date and badly flawed. Anyone who follows that guidance is eating too much carbs and not enough protein in my and many other people's eyes. Which is what leads to obesity and Type 2 diabetes.
To be able to get 8 billion to be able to consume enough meat is not something we currently generate. We need to be able to generate far more meat and far less carbs.
But either way 8 billion x 70g x 365.25 is more than current global production, is it not?
No. That's 204.54 million tonnes of meat. Current global production is 350 million tonnes.
@148grss is mixing up a recommened value for red meat with meat in general.
It says red or processed meat - as someone who has not eaten meat for a very long time that sounds like most meat to me? The consumption map works on the basis of "expected EU average by 2030" which is 165g of meat.
Chickens and pigs do the heavy lifting (~ 150 million tonnes) globally so no.
But the literal example given by the site talks about red or processed meat and uses sausages and bacon as an example - again what I'd assume is a lot of pork consumption (and lots of chicken will be processed). And sure, those areas with lower meat consumption will likely lean on chicken or pork (and non processed chicken or pork) over red or processed meats.
Well then we're not producing enough red meat for everyone to get their 75 grams. Like Bart you can't have this both ways.
I think this is another culture war thing where both sides scream at each other and adopt extreme positions, neither of which are true.
We need to eat a smaller amount of higher quality meat.
We should not eat no meat. And we should not continue to consume current levels of meat.
Human beings do not need to eat meat.
And vegetarians on average live about 9 years longer than flesheaters.
Source?
"For example, several studies with large sample sizes conducted in Australia18 and the United Kingdom19,20 did not show that meat eating correlated negatively with life expectancy after controlling for health-related elements of lifestyles"
I suspect that's right. Basically, there aren't that many vegetarian smokers
There’s an entire demographic of crusty boat-dwelling vegans who smoke (rollups, mostly). Just boated through Oxford and it’s full of them. The Kennet & Avon above Bath is the other hotspot.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
I wouldn't expect my Muslim friends to serve me bacon or my Hindu friends a beef steak.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
Would you expect a Jewish friend to serve you pork?
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
I wouldn't invite someone for dinner if they expected me to serve them meat, and I wouldn't accept an invitation from someone who was going to insist on serving me meat. It's quite simple.
Exactly. The favour is never returned. But I'm guessing if you go elsewhere then you expect a vegetarian option and not simply going along with whatever the host is having?
I don't expect a vegetarian option anywhere, but I'm grateful if there is one. If there isn't, I'll just eat the vegetables.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
I've no idea how many dinner parties you host, nor the people you invite - it certainly sounds like it isn't your friends - but the whole thing sounds ghastly.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Once took a vege German gal to a Hunt ball. Didn't last long after that....
Oh she told you that it was because of the menu, now, did she?
All this talk of veggie options makes me think of my freshers dinner.
They forgot to make a veggie main course. My tutor had a word, and suddenly the (very few, this was Oxford in the Noughties) veggies were all presented with a single, massive wedge of stilton.
Ohio Very Special Election, August 8 2023 - Issue 1 to require 60% super-majority to amend state constitution
with over 99% of expected votes counted: No 1,744,094 57.01% Yes 1,315,346 42.99%
> Rather cack-handed attempt by Republican-controlled legislature, to stymie proposed state constitutional amendment on November 2023 ballot to guarantee right to abortion in Ohio.
> Fact that it was hastily put on August ballot (first summertime vote on const amend in over century) shows that Buckeye GOPers were relying on low turnout, dominated by avid anti-abortion voters, to derail effort at putting Roe v Wade protections into Ohio constitution this fall by simple majority.
> Note the Leg did this immediately AFTER scrapping August statewide ballot measures, on grounds of low turnout!
> Anyway, rather predictable that - as in case of Kansas last year - instead of sliding by via voter suppression, either indirect as in summer election or direct as in eliminating early voting Monday before election day, what GOP wingnuts (from SCOTUS to Columbus) did, was LIGHT A FIRE under the asses of pro-choice voters. In this case, from Ashtabula to Athens County.
> Even in the ashes of their own defeat, however, Republican politicos and their henchpeople can derive some comfort from the fact that in most Ohio counties, voters said Yes to Issue 1. Reason it failed was because these are rural, small-town counties; the cities and suburbs voted No.
Of course a few city rats did vote Yes, and an even higher percentage of country mice said No. Reflecting perspective of pro-choice Republicans and other generally-conservative voters, who were willing to break ranks with the GOP on this vote (and also in November).
So local victories for Yes on Issue 1 across rural Ohio, from the cornfields on the Indiana border to the dystopian hell-on-earth that is Marietta, would appear to be down to two key factors: > strength of anti-abortion sentiment and organization (esp. church based) in many rural areas > strength of Republican voter identification and mobilization, the latter being aided by aging rural populations with above-average voting history and propensity.
Of course the REAL question, is, what does the landslide defeat of Issue 1 portend for 2024, in Ohio and way beyond?
Same as Kansas Summer 2022: that repeal of Roe v. Wade has energized MANY mainly Democratic voters, to actually turn out and vote. AND that there are likely to be impacts when the leaves start to fall this year, just as there were in 2022 midterms THAT autumn.
Incidentally for what its worth if I go to a vegan's home and get serve a vegan meal, I'd keep my feelings about it to myself and eat the meal. Because I wouldn't want to be rude. And if I have a vegan guest, I would serve them their choice, again because I want them to be happy.
Which is basically why meat eaters are in my view better people than vegetarians.
Most meat eaters will cater to vegetarians, to try to make them happy despite not agreeing with their choice.
But most vegetarians won't cater to meat eaters, to make them happy.
I do have one veggie friend who is an exception. He goes out of the way to buy in and cook a meat option for meat eating guests despite being a vegetarian - because he's a good person who wants to make his guests happy.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Once took a vege German gal to a Hunt ball. Didn't last long after that....
Oh she told you that it was because of the menu, now, did she?
Ha. Touche!
Joking apart we're still in touch. She was in a minority of 4 amongst about 500 that night!
That's about a mile from where I live. The Bridle Trails neighborhood centers around a park for those who ride horses, and many of the homes there have stables.
Black bears visit these eastside suburbs every year, usually looking for easy food sources, like bird feeders.
They aren't much of a problem. (Grizzly bears (Ursus arctos horribilis), in contrast, you really don't want near populated areas.)
(Occasionally, mountain lions visit. There have even been a few in Seattle itself, over the years. There are many coyotes in this area, of course. It's my impression they keep the feral cat population under control -- but that's not something I mention to cat lovers.)
Plenty of bears underneath the lifts at eg Whistler, Banff, etc.
Sales of veggie burgers on the slide, I fear we are headed for a beyond Beyond Meat world.
Price. Could be downpricing to lentils or beans instead. Inflation in food prices innit.
Good point.
On a purely personal level, when I have a meat-free meal, I prefer a "genuine" vegetarian dish to ersatz meat. There are some really tasty vegetarian dishes in their own right - they don't have to be a slightly worse version of an equivalent meat dish.
Indeed. As I noted earlier, our vegetarian dishes tend to be beans or lentil based, though I should have added tofu - no more processed than cheese, inherently. We do use Quorn sometimes but usually as straight as possible, as mince, esp if I can't get the local hoggett ot mutton mince.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
But you don't care if meat eaters feel awkward or out of place having a vegetarian meal given to them?
They are a) well-mannered, and b) my friends - they eat what they are given and are happy to be there. And in any case how absurd to feel "out of place" because you are given a nut cutlet.
In any case the food is the least important part of a dp.
Finally, on the subject of dangerous animals, I should mention the most dangerous mammal: "Deer are responsible for the deaths of about 440 of the estimated 458 Americans killed in physical confrontations with wildlife in an average year, according to Utah State University biologist Mike Conover, employing some educated guesswork in the latest edition of “Human-Wildlife Interactions.”
Those deer-inflicted fatalities are not, so far as we know, caused by deer-on-human predation. They’re the unfortunate result of more than 2 million people a year plowing into deer with their sedans and SUVs, usually on a two-lane road, often at high speed." source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/01/20/deer-car-collisions/
(The most dangerous animal in the US is probably one of the disease-carrying mosquitos -- and I am gratedul that they are mostly under control, here.)
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
But you don't care if meat eaters feel awkward or out of place having a vegetarian meal given to them?
They are a) well-mannered, and b) my friends - they eat what they are given and are happy to be there. And in any case how absurd to feel "out of place" because you are given a nut cutlet.
In any case the food is the least important part of a dp.
Exactly. Meat eaters are better people and have better manners. 👍
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Not a dinner party scenario - but at family get together / big work dos I get quite annoyed at the lack of veggie offering; not because there is nothing but because meat eaters will eat both their meat option and my veggie option, meaning the veggie option depletes quite quickly despite not many veggies being at a thing. At work we’ve started ordering veggie only buffets - half the team is veggie or vegan and when we ordered meat options alongside they were always left over but the veggie stuff would go quickly.
Sunak has bigger problems than Anderson, personnel wise. Shapps and Cleverly are both far more personable and charismatic.
When he is flailing in the polls and another 1000 Tory councillors have lost, who then will support him?
Who will support him? Shapps and Cleverly for a start.
You have a theory based on concern from the Tory membership/councillor base that Sunak hasn't got what it takes to turn this around.
I get that, but where you run into problems is that enough of the MPs have decided that the Sunak/Hunt approach of trying to avoid further market chaos whilst throwing out a bit of red meat on immigration, ULEZ etc is the only prospect of limiting losses. They've lashed themselves to the mast, the world king across the water is now an ex-MP, and anyone vaguely credible is resigned to sit it out, survive the election, and stand for leader of the opposition (a much better position than taking the poison chalice with weeks left in the term).
So I just don't see the realistic mechanism for you to get what you want this side of an election.
My feeling is the membership are usually 9 months ahead of the MPs on this.
MPs panic close to an election when polls are low. They'll push the button when they realise they're going to lose their seats otherwise.
Quite a few Tory MPs are standing down, quite a few won't in fact lose their seats (in the 1997 massacre only just over half did), and quite a few who are in serious danger will conclude that defenestration with weeks to go makes their prospects worse not better.
Quite apart from that, is who will take on the job in that situation. All the best candidates will sit on their hands until after the election, leaving a choice between maniacs and incredibly pompous, unappealing Sir Bufton Tufton types answering the nation's call at time of crisis.
I see your frustration, but I don't see how it realistically resolves in the way you describe.
Politics happens very slowly, then all at once.
Local donors will start drying up (this is how Tory MP's election campaign funds are secured), numbers of leaflet deliverers will dry up, councillors will be down.
Plus, come October, the 1 year moratorium on VONC within the PCP expires. It could be there are already a good number in; and every by election lost makes the threshold easier to reach.
Firstly, this assumes Sunak will push a General Election it beyond next May (and a further loss of councillors). I know that's a fairly widespread assumption, but I'm not sure. It's not a great round of elections for the Tories and, particularly if he does feel under any pressure, I think he'll chance it.
Secondly, I think enough Tory activists and donors either quite like Sunak or will stick with it come what may. As with the Lib Dems in 2015, on the ground and in local parties of threatened MPs, there is some rallying round. It may well not save seats - it didn't for the Lib Dems in 2015 - but actually in a backs-to-the-wall situation, quite a lot of people fight rather than take flight. Even being very cynical, if you're an ambitious Tory in the seat of an under-threat MP, you help them man the barricades and come out with a lot of credit as well as a vacancy.
Thirdly, there isn't a great deal of evidence of letters being planned or going in. Maybe there are behind the scenes, and maybe people are bring quiet, but there does need to be some noise to get momentum.
Finally, and crucially, a VONC needs to pass by a majority. I know Johnson went having survived a VONC, but that was through a further scandal and mass resignations. That's just not happening with Sunak - he's not likely to be embroiled in a scandal and his cabinet have either bought into his project or decided to wait until after the election as being disloyal isn't a winning formula.
Every Tory leader since Major who has survived a VONC hasn't survived the year....
The year counting from next may, runs in to ragnarok. This is like a dinosaur 65m and 1 years ago agonizing over whether its diet is the one most likely to ensure its longevity.
Secondly, it is beyond bonkers to think that HM might refuse a dissolution following the Lascelles principles. They and the SA and Canada cases referred to by Lascelles were immediately post GE crises, with a real issue as to what happens for the next 5 years, not at the fag end of a government. Apart from that, we have conventions about conventions in our wacky non codified constitution and the convention is not to put HMK in a spot where he has to make a political decision. If the tories start buggering him about (and it would have to be anti sunakite tories asking him to refuse) the punishment doled out by the electorate at GE 24 or 25 won't be KT, it will be end Permian. It would literally destroy the party. No decade in the wilderness and triumphant return under dishface.
Nope, the monarch wouldn't grant a dissolution because the PM was running scared of his party. Especially the first request for dissolution in the reign....
You really have got this round your neck, haven't you? Your initial misstatement of the case was "You know that the constitutional advice on a PM requesting a dissolution in the event of his imminent ousting is that it won't be accepted, right?" which just completely misunderstands the principles. It isn't a 50-50, mibbee ayes, mibbee naws, sort of call that HMK has to make, like an umpire adjudging an LBW appeal. The default, null, safe option is to grant the dissolution, it's only in insanely rare crises that you think about doing anything else.. If Charles grants a dissolution he isn't really doing anything. Not sticking his head above the parapet. What makes you think he wants to kick off his reign by enabling 6 months of Suella Braverman PM? Most GEs happen after 4 and a bit years anyway, and Sunak can just say he feels it's about time for one. And at the time he makes the request there's unlikely to be anything beyond tittle tattle about letters to Old Lady to suggest an imminent ousting anyway. On the face of it he will command a 62 seat majority.This is merely bonkers.
An insanely rare situation like.....a PM who has lost control of his own party wanting to dissolve parliament?
"Lost control of his party" will be PB tittle tattle, not something of which regal notice has to be taken, at the time he asks Chas to blow the whistle.
Let me guess, you are a disgruntled party member, voted for Truss, itching for a Sunakian Ides of March. Not going to happen. He, to coin a phrase, holds all the cards.
In this context, “lost control of his party” would have to mean he’d lost a formal vote of confidence and was expected to resign as party leader.
Or a VONC was pending, I'd say.
Just look at the letter
"no wise Sovereign—that is, one who has at heart the true interest of the country, the constitution, and the Monarchy—would deny a dissolution to his Prime Minister unless he were satisfied that: (1) the existing Parliament was still vital, viable, and capable of doing its job; (2) a General Election would be detrimental to the national economy; (3) he could rely on finding another Prime Minister who could carry on his Government, for a reasonable period, with a working majority in the House of Commons."
Barty wants (1) to mean there's a working majority, but that is nonsense because that's (3). It actually means what it says. Who is going to look at a tory party squabbling over whether the 6 month rump of the parliament should be presided over by Braverman or RM and think "vital, viable, and capable of doing its job"? This is a nonsense.
Anyway, a vonc ain't pending till Old Lady says so. There will be weeks for Sunak to act in. And it gives KC a chance for a splendid monarchist/republican crossover line: “You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go.”
Incidentally for what its worth if I go to a vegan's home and get serve a vegan meal, I'd keep my feelings about it to myself and eat the meal. Because I wouldn't want to be rude. And if I have a vegan guest, I would serve them their choice, again because I want them to be happy.
Which is basically why meat eaters are in my view better people than vegetarians.
Most meat eaters will cater to vegetarians, to try to make them happy despite not agreeing with their choice.
But most vegetarians won't cater to meat eaters, to make them happy.
I do have one veggie friend who is an exception. He goes out of the way to buy in and cook a meat option for meat eating guests despite being a vegetarian - because he's a good person who wants to make his guests happy.
Why would you go to a vegan's home and be served a vegan meal if they weren't a friend of yours. And if they were a friend of yours you wouldn't give a damn what you were served because you would appreciate the effort they had made, and would value their company more than what you stuff down your gullet. Wouldn't you?
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
Sunak has bigger problems than Anderson, personnel wise. Shapps and Cleverly are both far more personable and charismatic.
When he is flailing in the polls and another 1000 Tory councillors have lost, who then will support him?
Who will support him? Shapps and Cleverly for a start.
You have a theory based on concern from the Tory membership/councillor base that Sunak hasn't got what it takes to turn this around.
I get that, but where you run into problems is that enough of the MPs have decided that the Sunak/Hunt approach of trying to avoid further market chaos whilst throwing out a bit of red meat on immigration, ULEZ etc is the only prospect of limiting losses. They've lashed themselves to the mast, the world king across the water is now an ex-MP, and anyone vaguely credible is resigned to sit it out, survive the election, and stand for leader of the opposition (a much better position than taking the poison chalice with weeks left in the term).
So I just don't see the realistic mechanism for you to get what you want this side of an election.
My feeling is the membership are usually 9 months ahead of the MPs on this.
MPs panic close to an election when polls are low. They'll push the button when they realise they're going to lose their seats otherwise.
Quite a few Tory MPs are standing down, quite a few won't in fact lose their seats (in the 1997 massacre only just over half did), and quite a few who are in serious danger will conclude that defenestration with weeks to go makes their prospects worse not better.
Quite apart from that, is who will take on the job in that situation. All the best candidates will sit on their hands until after the election, leaving a choice between maniacs and incredibly pompous, unappealing Sir Bufton Tufton types answering the nation's call at time of crisis.
I see your frustration, but I don't see how it realistically resolves in the way you describe.
Politics happens very slowly, then all at once.
Local donors will start drying up (this is how Tory MP's election campaign funds are secured), numbers of leaflet deliverers will dry up, councillors will be down.
Plus, come October, the 1 year moratorium on VONC within the PCP expires. It could be there are already a good number in; and every by election lost makes the threshold easier to reach.
Firstly, this assumes Sunak will push a General Election it beyond next May (and a further loss of councillors). I know that's a fairly widespread assumption, but I'm not sure. It's not a great round of elections for the Tories and, particularly if he does feel under any pressure, I think he'll chance it.
Secondly, I think enough Tory activists and donors either quite like Sunak or will stick with it come what may. As with the Lib Dems in 2015, on the ground and in local parties of threatened MPs, there is some rallying round. It may well not save seats - it didn't for the Lib Dems in 2015 - but actually in a backs-to-the-wall situation, quite a lot of people fight rather than take flight. Even being very cynical, if you're an ambitious Tory in the seat of an under-threat MP, you help them man the barricades and come out with a lot of credit as well as a vacancy.
Thirdly, there isn't a great deal of evidence of letters being planned or going in. Maybe there are behind the scenes, and maybe people are bring quiet, but there does need to be some noise to get momentum.
Finally, and crucially, a VONC needs to pass by a majority. I know Johnson went having survived a VONC, but that was through a further scandal and mass resignations. That's just not happening with Sunak - he's not likely to be embroiled in a scandal and his cabinet have either bought into his project or decided to wait until after the election as being disloyal isn't a winning formula.
Every Tory leader since Major who has survived a VONC hasn't survived the year....
The year counting from next may, runs in to ragnarok. This is like a dinosaur 65m and 1 years ago agonizing over whether its diet is the one most likely to ensure its longevity.
Secondly, it is beyond bonkers to think that HM might refuse a dissolution following the Lascelles principles. They and the SA and Canada cases referred to by Lascelles were immediately post GE crises, with a real issue as to what happens for the next 5 years, not at the fag end of a government. Apart from that, we have conventions about conventions in our wacky non codified constitution and the convention is not to put HMK in a spot where he has to make a political decision. If the tories start buggering him about (and it would have to be anti sunakite tories asking him to refuse) the punishment doled out by the electorate at GE 24 or 25 won't be KT, it will be end Permian. It would literally destroy the party. No decade in the wilderness and triumphant return under dishface.
Nope, the monarch wouldn't grant a dissolution because the PM was running scared of his party. Especially the first request for dissolution in the reign....
You really have got this round your neck, haven't you? Your initial misstatement of the case was "You know that the constitutional advice on a PM requesting a dissolution in the event of his imminent ousting is that it won't be accepted, right?" which just completely misunderstands the principles. It isn't a 50-50, mibbee ayes, mibbee naws, sort of call that HMK has to make, like an umpire adjudging an LBW appeal. The default, null, safe option is to grant the dissolution, it's only in insanely rare crises that you think about doing anything else.. If Charles grants a dissolution he isn't really doing anything. Not sticking his head above the parapet. What makes you think he wants to kick off his reign by enabling 6 months of Suella Braverman PM? Most GEs happen after 4 and a bit years anyway, and Sunak can just say he feels it's about time for one. And at the time he makes the request there's unlikely to be anything beyond tittle tattle about letters to Old Lady to suggest an imminent ousting anyway. On the face of it he will command a 62 seat majority.This is merely bonkers.
An insanely rare situation like.....a PM who has lost control of his own party wanting to dissolve parliament?
"Lost control of his party" will be PB tittle tattle, not something of which regal notice has to be taken, at the time he asks Chas to blow the whistle.
Let me guess, you are a disgruntled party member, voted for Truss, itching for a Sunakian Ides of March. Not going to happen. He, to coin a phrase, holds all the cards.
Sunak is history. Shockingly, it would appear that a lot of Tories would like him to drift off before he leads the party to electoral annihilation.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Not a dinner party scenario - but at family get together / big work dos I get quite annoyed at the lack of veggie offering; not because there is nothing but because meat eaters will eat both their meat option and my veggie option, meaning the veggie option depletes quite quickly despite not many veggies being at a thing. At work we’ve started ordering veggie only buffets - half the team is veggie or vegan and when we ordered meat options alongside they were always left over but the veggie stuff would go quickly.
My wife complains of this, frequently.
Because meat eaters eat a balanced diet?
That's what you're supposed to do.
If meat eaters are eating veggie sides to go with their meat then they're not doing anything wrong, they're having a balanced meal.
If there's insufficient side orders/veg options then that's a balance problem, not a reason to cut out the meat. 🤦♂️
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
I don't get the issue. I've eaten and enjoyed most parts of many animals, but equally happy with a veggie meal. To take an example I had a potato and cauliflower curry last night. The night before I had BBQ duck breast and pork medallions. I don't think most meat eaters object to veggie meals and as some else pointed out if you offer veggie options with meat options the meat eaters will often consume the veggie options leaving the veggies short.
Finally, on the subject of dangerous animals, I should mention the most dangerous mammal: "Deer are responsible for the deaths of about 440 of the estimated 458 Americans killed in physical confrontations with wildlife in an average year, according to Utah State University biologist Mike Conover, employing some educated guesswork in the latest edition of “Human-Wildlife Interactions.”
Those deer-inflicted fatalities are not, so far as we know, caused by deer-on-human predation. They’re the unfortunate result of more than 2 million people a year plowing into deer with their sedans and SUVs, usually on a two-lane road, often at high speed." source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/01/20/deer-car-collisions/
(The most dangerous animal in the US is probably one of the disease-carrying mosquitos -- and I am gratedul that they are mostly under control, here.)
Horses effortlessly outperform the wildlife at 700 per year
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
I've no idea how many dinner parties you host, nor the people you invite - it certainly sounds like it isn't your friends - but the whole thing sounds ghastly.
I commend your effort, but with the amount of dietary variations that are relatively mainstream these days (veggie, vegan, coeliac), it doesn't leave your more conventional attendees with a very delicious or satisfying meal.
Sunak has bigger problems than Anderson, personnel wise. Shapps and Cleverly are both far more personable and charismatic.
When he is flailing in the polls and another 1000 Tory councillors have lost, who then will support him?
Who will support him? Shapps and Cleverly for a start.
You have a theory based on concern from the Tory membership/councillor base that Sunak hasn't got what it takes to turn this around.
I get that, but where you run into problems is that enough of the MPs have decided that the Sunak/Hunt approach of trying to avoid further market chaos whilst throwing out a bit of red meat on immigration, ULEZ etc is the only prospect of limiting losses. They've lashed themselves to the mast, the world king across the water is now an ex-MP, and anyone vaguely credible is resigned to sit it out, survive the election, and stand for leader of the opposition (a much better position than taking the poison chalice with weeks left in the term).
So I just don't see the realistic mechanism for you to get what you want this side of an election.
My feeling is the membership are usually 9 months ahead of the MPs on this.
MPs panic close to an election when polls are low. They'll push the button when they realise they're going to lose their seats otherwise.
Quite a few Tory MPs are standing down, quite a few won't in fact lose their seats (in the 1997 massacre only just over half did), and quite a few who are in serious danger will conclude that defenestration with weeks to go makes their prospects worse not better.
Quite apart from that, is who will take on the job in that situation. All the best candidates will sit on their hands until after the election, leaving a choice between maniacs and incredibly pompous, unappealing Sir Bufton Tufton types answering the nation's call at time of crisis.
I see your frustration, but I don't see how it realistically resolves in the way you describe.
Politics happens very slowly, then all at once.
Local donors will start drying up (this is how Tory MP's election campaign funds are secured), numbers of leaflet deliverers will dry up, councillors will be down.
Plus, come October, the 1 year moratorium on VONC within the PCP expires. It could be there are already a good number in; and every by election lost makes the threshold easier to reach.
Firstly, this assumes Sunak will push a General Election it beyond next May (and a further loss of councillors). I know that's a fairly widespread assumption, but I'm not sure. It's not a great round of elections for the Tories and, particularly if he does feel under any pressure, I think he'll chance it.
Secondly, I think enough Tory activists and donors either quite like Sunak or will stick with it come what may. As with the Lib Dems in 2015, on the ground and in local parties of threatened MPs, there is some rallying round. It may well not save seats - it didn't for the Lib Dems in 2015 - but actually in a backs-to-the-wall situation, quite a lot of people fight rather than take flight. Even being very cynical, if you're an ambitious Tory in the seat of an under-threat MP, you help them man the barricades and come out with a lot of credit as well as a vacancy.
Thirdly, there isn't a great deal of evidence of letters being planned or going in. Maybe there are behind the scenes, and maybe people are bring quiet, but there does need to be some noise to get momentum.
Finally, and crucially, a VONC needs to pass by a majority. I know Johnson went having survived a VONC, but that was through a further scandal and mass resignations. That's just not happening with Sunak - he's not likely to be embroiled in a scandal and his cabinet have either bought into his project or decided to wait until after the election as being disloyal isn't a winning formula.
Every Tory leader since Major who has survived a VONC hasn't survived the year....
The year counting from next may, runs in to ragnarok. This is like a dinosaur 65m and 1 years ago agonizing over whether its diet is the one most likely to ensure its longevity.
Secondly, it is beyond bonkers to think that HM might refuse a dissolution following the Lascelles principles. They and the SA and Canada cases referred to by Lascelles were immediately post GE crises, with a real issue as to what happens for the next 5 years, not at the fag end of a government. Apart from that, we have conventions about conventions in our wacky non codified constitution and the convention is not to put HMK in a spot where he has to make a political decision. If the tories start buggering him about (and it would have to be anti sunakite tories asking him to refuse) the punishment doled out by the electorate at GE 24 or 25 won't be KT, it will be end Permian. It would literally destroy the party. No decade in the wilderness and triumphant return under dishface.
Nope, the monarch wouldn't grant a dissolution because the PM was running scared of his party. Especially the first request for dissolution in the reign....
You really have got this round your neck, haven't you? Your initial misstatement of the case was "You know that the constitutional advice on a PM requesting a dissolution in the event of his imminent ousting is that it won't be accepted, right?" which just completely misunderstands the principles. It isn't a 50-50, mibbee ayes, mibbee naws, sort of call that HMK has to make, like an umpire adjudging an LBW appeal. The default, null, safe option is to grant the dissolution, it's only in insanely rare crises that you think about doing anything else.. If Charles grants a dissolution he isn't really doing anything. Not sticking his head above the parapet. What makes you think he wants to kick off his reign by enabling 6 months of Suella Braverman PM? Most GEs happen after 4 and a bit years anyway, and Sunak can just say he feels it's about time for one. And at the time he makes the request there's unlikely to be anything beyond tittle tattle about letters to Old Lady to suggest an imminent ousting anyway. On the face of it he will command a 62 seat majority.This is merely bonkers.
An insanely rare situation like.....a PM who has lost control of his own party wanting to dissolve parliament?
"Lost control of his party" will be PB tittle tattle, not something of which regal notice has to be taken, at the time he asks Chas to blow the whistle.
Let me guess, you are a disgruntled party member, voted for Truss, itching for a Sunakian Ides of March. Not going to happen. He, to coin a phrase, holds all the cards.
In this context, “lost control of his party” would have to mean he’d lost a formal vote of confidence and was expected to resign as party leader.
Or a VONC was pending, I'd say.
Just look at the letter
"no wise Sovereign—that is, one who has at heart the true interest of the country, the constitution, and the Monarchy—would deny a dissolution to his Prime Minister unless he were satisfied that: (1) the existing Parliament was still vital, viable, and capable of doing its job; (2) a General Election would be detrimental to the national economy; (3) he could rely on finding another Prime Minister who could carry on his Government, for a reasonable period, with a working majority in the House of Commons."
Barty wants (1) to mean there's a working majority, but that is nonsense because that's (3). It actually means what it says. Who is going to look at a tory party squabbling over whether the 6 month rump of the parliament should be presided over by Braverman or RM and think "vital, viable, and capable of doing its job"? This is a nonsense.
Anyway, a vonc ain't pending till Old Lady says so. There will be weeks for Sunak to act in. And it gives KC a chance for a splendid monarchist/republican crossover line: “You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go.”
The funny thing about those who whip out the Lascelles principles is that they think what they're doing is showing how strong their position is, when in fact by having to claim how 'strong' their case is, they are in fact showing how weak a position their lad is in....
Incidentally for what its worth if I go to a vegan's home and get serve a vegan meal, I'd keep my feelings about it to myself and eat the meal. Because I wouldn't want to be rude. And if I have a vegan guest, I would serve them their choice, again because I want them to be happy.
Which is basically why meat eaters are in my view better people than vegetarians.
Most meat eaters will cater to vegetarians, to try to make them happy despite not agreeing with their choice.
But most vegetarians won't cater to meat eaters, to make them happy.
I do have one veggie friend who is an exception. He goes out of the way to buy in and cook a meat option for meat eating guests despite being a vegetarian - because he's a good person who wants to make his guests happy.
Why would you go to a vegan's home and be served a vegan meal if they weren't a friend of yours. And if they were a friend of yours you wouldn't give a damn what you were served because you would appreciate the effort they had made, and would value their company more than what you stuff down your gullet. Wouldn't you?
As I said, I'm a good person so I'll keep my opinions of veganism to myself and eat whatever I'm served, even if I don't agree with it. That's just good manners.
If you want to make guests happy though, putting some effort into catering to their choices isn't a bad thing.
This goes with meats too not just vegetables. If I'm serving steaks, I eat those rare myself but if someone else prefers medium rare, medium or even *shudders* well done then I'll cater to them and serve them as they like it - not give them my choice.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Finally, on the subject of dangerous animals, I should mention the most dangerous mammal: "Deer are responsible for the deaths of about 440 of the estimated 458 Americans killed in physical confrontations with wildlife in an average year, according to Utah State University biologist Mike Conover, employing some educated guesswork in the latest edition of “Human-Wildlife Interactions.”
Those deer-inflicted fatalities are not, so far as we know, caused by deer-on-human predation. They’re the unfortunate result of more than 2 million people a year plowing into deer with their sedans and SUVs, usually on a two-lane road, often at high speed." source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/01/20/deer-car-collisions/
(The most dangerous animal in the US is probably one of the disease-carrying mosquitos -- and I am gratedul that they are mostly under control, here.)
The most dangerous mammal in America? Wrong order, you need the primates, and more specifically the hominines.
On the assumption that all the science is correct it seems to me that a technical solution through decarbonisation and adaptation is the most feasible answer to the problem of global warming. It is quite obvious that it is not going to be realistic to stop consumption in developing counties, if you stake all your hopes on this, accepting the massive economic hit that would be involved, then you are going to end up disappointed and you will not innovate (which is necessary to solve the problem) at the same rate.
Perhaps this position is actually a form of faith in technical progress, but there is evidence of success to justify it, ie with the improving efficiency of solar panels, the emergence of electric cars, etc. To the contrary I've seen little evidence that developing countries will slow down their growth in consumption. It seems to me that the environmental activists and their fellow travellers are right to point out the problem but by catastrophising and preaching that consumption is a sin they are actually getting in the way of the optimum solution.
That to me is what feels more like a religious belief "a new technology will save us" where we have no actual reason to believe it will, when instead we have had the means to make the necessary changes in the last 30 years and it was decided not to. If environmentalists making demands for revolution sound like religious zealots, it's partly because the last 30 years have been such monumental failures:
The point is that there have been massive positive technological changes in the past three decades.
The religious are those who say that little or nothing has been done.
That technological change has not reduced the likelihood of climate catastrophe and has increased it. In the last 30 years we've had the incentive, we've had the knowledge and we've had the technology to massively change economies - the issue has been that the "market" (see those invested in oil) have incentives for short term profit over long term sustainability. We do not currently have viable carbon capture tech, and to assume that we will have it in time to save us sounds more akin to a faith based position than the materialist approach of just reducing our dependency on fossil fuels and reducing our consumption. I don't advocate going back to the stone age - we could have a globally average standard of living that is very good that is also not highly destructive to the environment. What you can't have is that and growth growth growth at the same time.
So in your alternative vision, 8 billion people would collectively have a higher standard of living but with lower aggregate consumption? How does that add up?
Redistribution of resources. The analogy of growth is always "you might get a smaller slice, but of a bigger pie, so you'll be richer". I'm saying we need to shrink the pie, but give more people bigger slices. That means some people will get smaller slices, yes, but most of those people already have massive slices and they'll be relatively worse off compared to their life previously, but still very well off compared to the standard of living across the whole of human history. Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates are not people who deserve millions times more resources at their disposal than any other human being.
And that is because you are a religious zealot who doesn't give a damn about the environment.
Shrinking the pie, but keeping dirty technologies, does not help the environment, does not solve CO2 and other emissions, does not address climate change. It does nothing positive.
Having economic growth, with clean technologies, is better for the planet, better for the environment, and raises living standards.
They are not perfect individuals, far from it, but Elon Musk with the assistance he has given to push the switch to electric vehicles and Bill Gates with his Foundation have done more for the planet than anyone in Greenpeace or Just Stop Oil or any other hairshirt zealot ever has.
Elon Musk today is driving down CO2 production by encouraging people to switch off Twitter, so well done that man!
Of course, this argument over reduced consumption vs technological innovation as solutions to climate change is silly. We need both and both are happening.
No, the only thing we need is technological innovation.
Consumption is higher than its ever been, and ought to be higher still in the future. That is a good thing.
And apparently environmentalists are the zealots...
Why must consumption be ever rising?
Because consumption is a good thing. It is a positive for human health and happiness.
So long as it can be sustainably generated from renewable resources, then what could you possibly want to consume less of? Healthcare? Education? Food for those in need?
The world doesn't consume enough, that is why there are people in poverty.
To eliminate hunger, we need more food consumed - and more and better healthier foods to replace calorie-intensive sugars.
To lift everyone to healthy standards of living, we need to be consuming far more than we are now as a species. To do that needs development in sustainable, clean, renewable technologies. Not hairshirts, or leaving people in poverty.
I could consume more now. I could go and eat some ice cream (homemade raspberry), but I'm full after lunch and that wouldn't be good for my health. I could turn the speakers up and consume more electricity, but my background music is as loud as I want it. Maybe I'll turn on my portable radiator and my portable air con unit at the same time! More consumption is not necessarily a good thing for everyone in every situation.
I didn't say it was a good thing for everyone in every situation.
It is a good thing, in aggregate, for our species though.
You may be full after lunch, but others across the planet are hungry.
You may have music, others can't afford entertainment.
You may have your room at a nice temperature, others are too hot or too cold.
To get everyone on the planet to be able to eat as well as you can, have a heated/air conditioned room as well as you can, the entertainment you take for granted etc will require much more consumption globally than we have as a species today.
So either we want people to remain in poverty (I don't), living standards to fall (I don't), or we need more consumption globally (I do).
So the question is how as a species we can both increase consumption and responsibly look after the planet. To which the answer is technology as it has been for hundreds if not thousands of years. But it needs to be clean technologies.
So you accept that overconsumption is possible?
My position is essentially that current occasions of overconsumption is greater than the shortfall needed to make up the under consumption to bring poor people up to a decent standard of living.
I would therefore prefer to look for a solution that equal out this equation using what is already there rather than adding more stuff to the under consumption side to equal it out; redistribution.
Why is that necessarily bad, and why would piling more side onto the under consumption side necessarily be better?
And your position is bullshit.
People are only overconsuming calories because of the abundance of processed crap like sugars, not because of an overconsumption of healthy foods.
How do we ensure everyone on the planet can get abundant supply of healthy beef and other healthy food that we take for granted, without a reliance upon processed carbs?
By leveraging the resources dedicated to processed carbs - the subsidies, the labour, the land, the marketing - to healthier food options. And redistributing what we currently have.
Just on the issue of meat:
Current guidance is more than 90g of red or processed meat a day is probably bad, and that it should be closer to 70g.
Note that the UK averages more than twice the recommended amount, and the US averages more than three times the recommended amount. And we also know that richer people have more access to meat if they want it.
The problem though is that the processed carb crap is less resource intensive than clean foods like meat. A bad food like sugar is a much easier cash crop to generate than a healthy food like beef. So to switch to a healthier diet needs more resources, not less.
The current guidance is out of date and badly flawed. Anyone who follows that guidance is eating too much carbs and not enough protein in my and many other people's eyes. Which is what leads to obesity and Type 2 diabetes.
To be able to get 8 billion to be able to consume enough meat is not something we currently generate. We need to be able to generate far more meat and far less carbs.
But either way 8 billion x 70g x 365.25 is more than current global production, is it not?
No. That's 204.54 million tonnes of meat. Current global production is 350 million tonnes.
@148grss is mixing up a recommened value for red meat with meat in general.
It says red or processed meat - as someone who has not eaten meat for a very long time that sounds like most meat to me? The consumption map works on the basis of "expected EU average by 2030" which is 165g of meat.
Chickens and pigs do the heavy lifting (~ 150 million tonnes) globally so no.
But the literal example given by the site talks about red or processed meat and uses sausages and bacon as an example - again what I'd assume is a lot of pork consumption (and lots of chicken will be processed). And sure, those areas with lower meat consumption will likely lean on chicken or pork (and non processed chicken or pork) over red or processed meats.
Well then we're not producing enough red meat for everyone to get their 75 grams. Like Bart you can't have this both ways.
I think this is another culture war thing where both sides scream at each other and adopt extreme positions, neither of which are true.
We need to eat a smaller amount of higher quality meat.
We should not eat no meat. And we should not continue to consume current levels of meat.
Human beings do not need to eat meat.
And vegetarians on average live about 9 years longer than flesheaters.
Source?
"For example, several studies with large sample sizes conducted in Australia18 and the United Kingdom19,20 did not show that meat eating correlated negatively with life expectancy after controlling for health-related elements of lifestyles"
I suspect that's right. Basically, there aren't that many vegetarian smokers
In general, though, you want to eat a balanced diet, and avoid too much sugar and salt.
And for most people, that probably means they are eating more green vegetables and reducing quantities of processed food (which is going to include burgers and fries).
I tend to be live and let live...eat what you enjoy but I have found some but not all vegans/vegetarians evangelical, indeed a vegan was one of the only two times I have lodged a complaint with hr about a co worker
Vegetarians tend to be relatively pragmatic folk, it's the vegans who are usually the religious nuts.
Personally, if I cook for guests it will usually be with an animal (fish or meat) main course.
But not always.
Sometimes I do risotto with halloumi cheese for a main, and that is veggie. (Albeit, if I'm doing a veggie main, I'll probably have meat or fish for the starter.)
There are some really excellent South Indian restaurants around Drummond Street in London (near Euston) that are all vegetarian. I would highly recommend Diwana, and have been going there for at least 45 of my 48 years on this planet.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Not a dinner party scenario - but at family get together / big work dos I get quite annoyed at the lack of veggie offering; not because there is nothing but because meat eaters will eat both their meat option and my veggie option, meaning the veggie option depletes quite quickly despite not many veggies being at a thing. At work we’ve started ordering veggie only buffets - half the team is veggie or vegan and when we ordered meat options alongside they were always left over but the veggie stuff would go quickly.
My wife complains of this, frequently.
Because meat eaters eat a balanced diet?
That's what you're supposed to do.
If meat eaters are eating veggie sides to go with their meat then they're not doing anything wrong, they're having a balanced meal.
If there's insufficient side orders/veg options then that's a balance problem, not a reason to cut out the meat. 🤦♂️
Exactly, the lesson to take from this is to order more varied buffets, not cut out the food that the majority eat.
Incidentally for what its worth if I go to a vegan's home and get serve a vegan meal, I'd keep my feelings about it to myself and eat the meal. Because I wouldn't want to be rude. And if I have a vegan guest, I would serve them their choice, again because I want them to be happy.
Which is basically why meat eaters are in my view better people than vegetarians.
Most meat eaters will cater to vegetarians, to try to make them happy despite not agreeing with their choice.
But most vegetarians won't cater to meat eaters, to make them happy.
I do have one veggie friend who is an exception. He goes out of the way to buy in and cook a meat option for meat eating guests despite being a vegetarian - because he's a good person who wants to make his guests happy.
Why would you go to a vegan's home and be served a vegan meal if they weren't a friend of yours. And if they were a friend of yours you wouldn't give a damn what you were served because you would appreciate the effort they had made, and would value their company more than what you stuff down your gullet. Wouldn't you?
As I said, I'm a good person so I'll keep my opinions of veganism to myself and eat whatever I'm served, even if I don't agree with it. That's just good manners.
If you want to make guests happy though, putting some effort into catering to their choices isn't a bad thing.
This goes with meats too not just vegetables. If I'm serving steaks, I eat those rare myself but if someone else prefers medium rare, medium or even *shudders* well done then I'll cater to them and serve them as they like it - not give them my choice.
As I said, and of course neither you nor I will ever have to worry about this, your attitude doesn't sound like one you would have towards a friend. An imaginary internet vegan guest perhaps who comes into your house demanding nut roasts, but not a friend.
A friend you wouldn't give a damn about any of this and if you did, for a friend, then that is pretty sad tbh.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
Don't you tell pretty much everyone to fuck off anyway?
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Not a dinner party scenario - but at family get together / big work dos I get quite annoyed at the lack of veggie offering; not because there is nothing but because meat eaters will eat both their meat option and my veggie option, meaning the veggie option depletes quite quickly despite not many veggies being at a thing. At work we’ve started ordering veggie only buffets - half the team is veggie or vegan and when we ordered meat options alongside they were always left over but the veggie stuff would go quickly.
My wife complains of this, frequently.
Because meat eaters eat a balanced diet?
That's what you're supposed to do.
If meat eaters are eating veggie sides to go with their meat then they're not doing anything wrong, they're having a balanced meal.
If there's insufficient side orders/veg options then that's a balance problem, not a reason to cut out the meat. 🤦♂️
Exactly, the lesson to take from this is to order more varied buffets, not cut out the food that the majority eat.
The lesson is that you need more nut cutlets than you think.
Incidentally for what its worth if I go to a vegan's home and get serve a vegan meal, I'd keep my feelings about it to myself and eat the meal. Because I wouldn't want to be rude. And if I have a vegan guest, I would serve them their choice, again because I want them to be happy.
Which is basically why meat eaters are in my view better people than vegetarians.
Most meat eaters will cater to vegetarians, to try to make them happy despite not agreeing with their choice.
But most vegetarians won't cater to meat eaters, to make them happy.
I do have one veggie friend who is an exception. He goes out of the way to buy in and cook a meat option for meat eating guests despite being a vegetarian - because he's a good person who wants to make his guests happy.
Why would you go to a vegan's home and be served a vegan meal if they weren't a friend of yours. And if they were a friend of yours you wouldn't give a damn what you were served because you would appreciate the effort they had made, and would value their company more than what you stuff down your gullet. Wouldn't you?
As I said, I'm a good person so I'll keep my opinions of veganism to myself and eat whatever I'm served, even if I don't agree with it. That's just good manners.
If you want to make guests happy though, putting some effort into catering to their choices isn't a bad thing.
This goes with meats too not just vegetables. If I'm serving steaks, I eat those rare myself but if someone else prefers medium rare, medium or even *shudders* well done then I'll cater to them and serve them as they like it - not give them my choice.
As I said, and of course neither you nor I will ever have to worry about this, your attitude doesn't sound like one you would have towards a friend. An imaginary internet vegan guest perhaps who comes into your house demanding nut roasts, but not a friend.
A friend you wouldn't give a damn about any of this and if you did, for a friend, then that is pretty sad tbh.
Nut roasts! Did someone say nut roast? Yum. Where is it??
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
Don't you tell pretty much everyone to fuck off anyway?
Only when they annoy me. Life is too short to put up with idiots
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
Don't you tell pretty much everyone to fuck off anyway?
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Not a dinner party scenario - but at family get together / big work dos I get quite annoyed at the lack of veggie offering; not because there is nothing but because meat eaters will eat both their meat option and my veggie option, meaning the veggie option depletes quite quickly despite not many veggies being at a thing. At work we’ve started ordering veggie only buffets - half the team is veggie or vegan and when we ordered meat options alongside they were always left over but the veggie stuff would go quickly.
My wife complains of this, frequently.
Because meat eaters eat a balanced diet?
That's what you're supposed to do.
If meat eaters are eating veggie sides to go with their meat then they're not doing anything wrong, they're having a balanced meal.
If there's insufficient side orders/veg options then that's a balance problem, not a reason to cut out the meat. 🤦♂️
Er, no.
I was talking about the vegetarian alternative to meat dishes, not "veggie sides", a phrase which suggests your ideological stance on the matter.
It's also provides a little perspective on the relative desirability of vegetarian dishes, and your "we're better people" belief.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
I've no idea how many dinner parties you host, nor the people you invite - it certainly sounds like it isn't your friends - but the whole thing sounds ghastly.
I commend your effort, but with the amount of dietary variations that are relatively mainstream these days (veggie, vegan, coeliac), it doesn't leave your more conventional attendees with a very delicious or satisfying meal.
Says you. Plus as I have noted, the food is the least important thing about a dinner party and certainly not something that would detain me a moment when I think about my "attitude" towards any particular dietary requirements. As long as the wine and conversation is flowing I couldn't care less what is eaten and I certainly wouldn't think any less of a friend for cooking me the "wrong" kind of meal.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
Well said.
Everyone I know with a funny diet is generally happy to be catered to their requests, very rare to see anyone expect everyone to have to have what they want.
Perhaps fair to say anyone who proselytised and expected everyone to have what they want wouldn't remain a friend for long. Relatives are more of an issue, you can't choose your relatives.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
Yes, I can believe that.
So you are married and monogamous....a friend telling you that is wrong and you should be polyamorous and it is immoral not to be that way would not piss you off?
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
But that is not the same is it. I'm a meat eater but I also love a veggie meal. Most (all) meat eaters do.
On the assumption that all the science is correct it seems to me that a technical solution through decarbonisation and adaptation is the most feasible answer to the problem of global warming. It is quite obvious that it is not going to be realistic to stop consumption in developing counties, if you stake all your hopes on this, accepting the massive economic hit that would be involved, then you are going to end up disappointed and you will not innovate (which is necessary to solve the problem) at the same rate.
Perhaps this position is actually a form of faith in technical progress, but there is evidence of success to justify it, ie with the improving efficiency of solar panels, the emergence of electric cars, etc. To the contrary I've seen little evidence that developing countries will slow down their growth in consumption. It seems to me that the environmental activists and their fellow travellers are right to point out the problem but by catastrophising and preaching that consumption is a sin they are actually getting in the way of the optimum solution.
That to me is what feels more like a religious belief "a new technology will save us" where we have no actual reason to believe it will, when instead we have had the means to make the necessary changes in the last 30 years and it was decided not to. If environmentalists making demands for revolution sound like religious zealots, it's partly because the last 30 years have been such monumental failures:
The point is that there have been massive positive technological changes in the past three decades.
The religious are those who say that little or nothing has been done.
That technological change has not reduced the likelihood of climate catastrophe and has increased it. In the last 30 years we've had the incentive, we've had the knowledge and we've had the technology to massively change economies - the issue has been that the "market" (see those invested in oil) have incentives for short term profit over long term sustainability. We do not currently have viable carbon capture tech, and to assume that we will have it in time to save us sounds more akin to a faith based position than the materialist approach of just reducing our dependency on fossil fuels and reducing our consumption. I don't advocate going back to the stone age - we could have a globally average standard of living that is very good that is also not highly destructive to the environment. What you can't have is that and growth growth growth at the same time.
So in your alternative vision, 8 billion people would collectively have a higher standard of living but with lower aggregate consumption? How does that add up?
Redistribution of resources. The analogy of growth is always "you might get a smaller slice, but of a bigger pie, so you'll be richer". I'm saying we need to shrink the pie, but give more people bigger slices. That means some people will get smaller slices, yes, but most of those people already have massive slices and they'll be relatively worse off compared to their life previously, but still very well off compared to the standard of living across the whole of human history. Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates are not people who deserve millions times more resources at their disposal than any other human being.
And that is because you are a religious zealot who doesn't give a damn about the environment.
Shrinking the pie, but keeping dirty technologies, does not help the environment, does not solve CO2 and other emissions, does not address climate change. It does nothing positive.
Having economic growth, with clean technologies, is better for the planet, better for the environment, and raises living standards.
They are not perfect individuals, far from it, but Elon Musk with the assistance he has given to push the switch to electric vehicles and Bill Gates with his Foundation have done more for the planet than anyone in Greenpeace or Just Stop Oil or any other hairshirt zealot ever has.
Elon Musk today is driving down CO2 production by encouraging people to switch off Twitter, so well done that man!
Of course, this argument over reduced consumption vs technological innovation as solutions to climate change is silly. We need both and both are happening.
No, the only thing we need is technological innovation.
Consumption is higher than its ever been, and ought to be higher still in the future. That is a good thing.
And apparently environmentalists are the zealots...
Why must consumption be ever rising?
Because consumption is a good thing. It is a positive for human health and happiness.
So long as it can be sustainably generated from renewable resources, then what could you possibly want to consume less of? Healthcare? Education? Food for those in need?
The world doesn't consume enough, that is why there are people in poverty.
To eliminate hunger, we need more food consumed - and more and better healthier foods to replace calorie-intensive sugars.
To lift everyone to healthy standards of living, we need to be consuming far more than we are now as a species. To do that needs development in sustainable, clean, renewable technologies. Not hairshirts, or leaving people in poverty.
I could consume more now. I could go and eat some ice cream (homemade raspberry), but I'm full after lunch and that wouldn't be good for my health. I could turn the speakers up and consume more electricity, but my background music is as loud as I want it. Maybe I'll turn on my portable radiator and my portable air con unit at the same time! More consumption is not necessarily a good thing for everyone in every situation.
I didn't say it was a good thing for everyone in every situation.
It is a good thing, in aggregate, for our species though.
You may be full after lunch, but others across the planet are hungry.
You may have music, others can't afford entertainment.
You may have your room at a nice temperature, others are too hot or too cold.
To get everyone on the planet to be able to eat as well as you can, have a heated/air conditioned room as well as you can, the entertainment you take for granted etc will require much more consumption globally than we have as a species today.
So either we want people to remain in poverty (I don't), living standards to fall (I don't), or we need more consumption globally (I do).
So the question is how as a species we can both increase consumption and responsibly look after the planet. To which the answer is technology as it has been for hundreds if not thousands of years. But it needs to be clean technologies.
So you accept that overconsumption is possible?
My position is essentially that current occasions of overconsumption is greater than the shortfall needed to make up the under consumption to bring poor people up to a decent standard of living.
I would therefore prefer to look for a solution that equal out this equation using what is already there rather than adding more stuff to the under consumption side to equal it out; redistribution.
Why is that necessarily bad, and why would piling more side onto the under consumption side necessarily be better?
And your position is bullshit.
People are only overconsuming calories because of the abundance of processed crap like sugars, not because of an overconsumption of healthy foods.
How do we ensure everyone on the planet can get abundant supply of healthy beef and other healthy food that we take for granted, without a reliance upon processed carbs?
By leveraging the resources dedicated to processed carbs - the subsidies, the labour, the land, the marketing - to healthier food options. And redistributing what we currently have.
Just on the issue of meat:
Current guidance is more than 90g of red or processed meat a day is probably bad, and that it should be closer to 70g.
Note that the UK averages more than twice the recommended amount, and the US averages more than three times the recommended amount. And we also know that richer people have more access to meat if they want it.
The problem though is that the processed carb crap is less resource intensive than clean foods like meat. A bad food like sugar is a much easier cash crop to generate than a healthy food like beef. So to switch to a healthier diet needs more resources, not less.
The current guidance is out of date and badly flawed. Anyone who follows that guidance is eating too much carbs and not enough protein in my and many other people's eyes. Which is what leads to obesity and Type 2 diabetes.
To be able to get 8 billion to be able to consume enough meat is not something we currently generate. We need to be able to generate far more meat and far less carbs.
But either way 8 billion x 70g x 365.25 is more than current global production, is it not?
No. That's 204.54 million tonnes of meat. Current global production is 350 million tonnes.
@148grss is mixing up a recommened value for red meat with meat in general.
It says red or processed meat - as someone who has not eaten meat for a very long time that sounds like most meat to me? The consumption map works on the basis of "expected EU average by 2030" which is 165g of meat.
Chickens and pigs do the heavy lifting (~ 150 million tonnes) globally so no.
But the literal example given by the site talks about red or processed meat and uses sausages and bacon as an example - again what I'd assume is a lot of pork consumption (and lots of chicken will be processed). And sure, those areas with lower meat consumption will likely lean on chicken or pork (and non processed chicken or pork) over red or processed meats.
Well then we're not producing enough red meat for everyone to get their 75 grams. Like Bart you can't have this both ways.
I think this is another culture war thing where both sides scream at each other and adopt extreme positions, neither of which are true.
We need to eat a smaller amount of higher quality meat.
We should not eat no meat. And we should not continue to consume current levels of meat.
Human beings do not need to eat meat.
And vegetarians on average live about 9 years longer than flesheaters.
Source?
"For example, several studies with large sample sizes conducted in Australia18 and the United Kingdom19,20 did not show that meat eating correlated negatively with life expectancy after controlling for health-related elements of lifestyles"
I suspect that's right. Basically, there aren't that many vegetarian smokers
In general, though, you want to eat a balanced diet, and avoid too much sugar and salt.
And for most people, that probably means they are eating more green vegetables and reducing quantities of processed food (which is going to include burgers and fries).
I tend to be live and let live...eat what you enjoy but I have found some but not all vegans/vegetarians evangelical, indeed a vegan was one of the only two times I have lodged a complaint with hr about a co worker
Vegetarians tend to be relatively pragmatic folk, it's the vegans who are usually the religious nuts.
Personally, if I cook for guests it will usually be with an animal (fish or meat) main course.
But not always.
Sometimes I do risotto with halloumi cheese for a main, and that is veggie. (Albeit, if I'm doing a veggie main, I'll probably have meat or fish for the starter.)
There are some really excellent South Indian restaurants around Drummond Street in London (near Euston) that are all vegetarian. I would highly recommend Diwana, and have been going there for at least 45 of my 48 years on this planet.
You are a reasonable person, Robert. (Though perhaps tending to the doctrinaire in your - admittedly sound - musical tastes.)
"Every police officer in Northern Ireland has data compromised in 'monumental' breach due to human error
The PSNI Assistant Chief Constable admitted the breach was made in "human error" and apologised to colleagues whose data was made public for two and a half to three hours."
Amazingly, some dangerous idiots still want the government to have yet more of our intimate personal data, even though it's obvious they can't keep it safe. Last year Labour were advocating ID cards to control illegal immigration.
... I would regard id cards as a sensible and proportionate measure...
UK 2020s politics is a long stream of illiberal measures designed to burden law-abiding citizens with whatever the fashionable nostrums of the day are. ID cards is a thing that keeps popping up, and it gets knocked down every time.
Not very effectively knocked down then. It's about 1% as scary to me as the surveillance by facial/numberplate recognition/cell phone which goes on 24/7 so if it has any practical value let's do it.
Again, coercing the individual. The question is not whether it is a good idea, but whether it is moral to fine/jail somebody for refusing to carry one. That would be state overkill.
When I lived in Switzerland i was legally obliged to carry my ID card/foreigner permit (carte des etrangers) at all times and if it was requested by the police or an official and I didn’t have it then I was liable to a fine. There was not one second where I felt that it was oppression by the state or an intrusion into my civil liberties.
In fact it was actually great to have one as with it so many activities were quicker - opening a bank account, collecting a parcel, registering with a gov department re tax or similar - because it was an official compulsory ID card that no functionary would refuse to accept as ID.
Sigh.
For the nth time. The problem isn’t the ID card. The problem isn’t the unique identifying code on it. The problem isn’t even the potential use of that unique code as a key on databases.
The problem is that every single time ID cards have been proposed (and he time that they were, briefly, actually implemented), they come with an attempt to link all our personal information together. And link it to biometric data - finger prints, face recognition. etc. and the make it accessible to everyone.
In the last such scheme, they were going to make everything the NHS had on you (for instance) available to council officials investigating fly tipping. When asked why, the response was that segregating data would be difficult and slow things down.
So if your finger print day was stolen, you’d just have to get new finger prints, eh?
It should be noted that personal for Important People (Politicians, senior civil servants, famous people who the government liked) *was* to be segregated. #NU10K
The only saving grace was that such an insane breach of every concept of data security would have gone the way of all such government projects. Collapsed after spending billions. Though in this case it would have got to the data leaking stage
Time to repost this admittedly brilliant analysis from a couple of years ago:
I’ve always said I’m in favour of ID cards, if the following conditions are met:
1) They’re issued for free
2) You don’t have to carry them at all times
3) You can use them chip and pin to access all government services - so they would replace passports and driving licences, not augment them
4) That you had the power to access all information the government holds on you, and amend it where it is wrong
5) That civil servants who access your data are logged, and you can see who they are and why they accessed it
6) That if somebody has accessed your data inappropriately you have the right to take legal action against them, funded by the government.
And numbers 4-6 will not happen while any civil servant breathes air.
Civil Servants are only human, and humans are nosy, so the more information you make available to government officials the more information they will see.
If you think that if you had free access to a super-government database that you wouldn't be looking at your neighbour's income then you are kidding yourself. The best that can be hoped for is that you would have the good sense not to tell anyone that you had done so and keep the information to yourself.
Carnyx - True. I should have said wild animals, or "wildlife", as the article I quoted did.
Indeed - I expect horses and cattle also score quite highly. Not to mention pooches. And perhaps cats, if one counts the brain parasites they carry.
PS It is a good point you make about the deer, though; I've heard similar re kangaroos (which can slip through the broken windsreen and then kick out, for added fun).
Deer are a problem in Scotland partly thanks to some shooting estates pushing up numbers, and refusing to discuss cooperation in control, but sheep are also dangerous as so unpredictable - I always make my friends slow down if there are sheep on the road.
Sunak has bigger problems than Anderson, personnel wise. Shapps and Cleverly are both far more personable and charismatic.
When he is flailing in the polls and another 1000 Tory councillors have lost, who then will support him?
Who will support him? Shapps and Cleverly for a start.
You have a theory based on concern from the Tory membership/councillor base that Sunak hasn't got what it takes to turn this around.
I get that, but where you run into problems is that enough of the MPs have decided that the Sunak/Hunt approach of trying to avoid further market chaos whilst throwing out a bit of red meat on immigration, ULEZ etc is the only prospect of limiting losses. They've lashed themselves to the mast, the world king across the water is now an ex-MP, and anyone vaguely credible is resigned to sit it out, survive the election, and stand for leader of the opposition (a much better position than taking the poison chalice with weeks left in the term).
So I just don't see the realistic mechanism for you to get what you want this side of an election.
My feeling is the membership are usually 9 months ahead of the MPs on this.
MPs panic close to an election when polls are low. They'll push the button when they realise they're going to lose their seats otherwise.
Quite a few Tory MPs are standing down, quite a few won't in fact lose their seats (in the 1997 massacre only just over half did), and quite a few who are in serious danger will conclude that defenestration with weeks to go makes their prospects worse not better.
Quite apart from that, is who will take on the job in that situation. All the best candidates will sit on their hands until after the election, leaving a choice between maniacs and incredibly pompous, unappealing Sir Bufton Tufton types answering the nation's call at time of crisis.
I see your frustration, but I don't see how it realistically resolves in the way you describe.
Politics happens very slowly, then all at once.
Local donors will start drying up (this is how Tory MP's election campaign funds are secured), numbers of leaflet deliverers will dry up, councillors will be down.
Plus, come October, the 1 year moratorium on VONC within the PCP expires. It could be there are already a good number in; and every by election lost makes the threshold easier to reach.
Firstly, this assumes Sunak will push a General Election it beyond next May (and a further loss of councillors). I know that's a fairly widespread assumption, but I'm not sure. It's not a great round of elections for the Tories and, particularly if he does feel under any pressure, I think he'll chance it.
Secondly, I think enough Tory activists and donors either quite like Sunak or will stick with it come what may. As with the Lib Dems in 2015, on the ground and in local parties of threatened MPs, there is some rallying round. It may well not save seats - it didn't for the Lib Dems in 2015 - but actually in a backs-to-the-wall situation, quite a lot of people fight rather than take flight. Even being very cynical, if you're an ambitious Tory in the seat of an under-threat MP, you help them man the barricades and come out with a lot of credit as well as a vacancy.
Thirdly, there isn't a great deal of evidence of letters being planned or going in. Maybe there are behind the scenes, and maybe people are bring quiet, but there does need to be some noise to get momentum.
Finally, and crucially, a VONC needs to pass by a majority. I know Johnson went having survived a VONC, but that was through a further scandal and mass resignations. That's just not happening with Sunak - he's not likely to be embroiled in a scandal and his cabinet have either bought into his project or decided to wait until after the election as being disloyal isn't a winning formula.
Every Tory leader since Major who has survived a VONC hasn't survived the year....
The year counting from next may, runs in to ragnarok. This is like a dinosaur 65m and 1 years ago agonizing over whether its diet is the one most likely to ensure its longevity.
Secondly, it is beyond bonkers to think that HM might refuse a dissolution following the Lascelles principles. They and the SA and Canada cases referred to by Lascelles were immediately post GE crises, with a real issue as to what happens for the next 5 years, not at the fag end of a government. Apart from that, we have conventions about conventions in our wacky non codified constitution and the convention is not to put HMK in a spot where he has to make a political decision. If the tories start buggering him about (and it would have to be anti sunakite tories asking him to refuse) the punishment doled out by the electorate at GE 24 or 25 won't be KT, it will be end Permian. It would literally destroy the party. No decade in the wilderness and triumphant return under dishface.
Nope, the monarch wouldn't grant a dissolution because the PM was running scared of his party. Especially the first request for dissolution in the reign....
You really have got this round your neck, haven't you? Your initial misstatement of the case was "You know that the constitutional advice on a PM requesting a dissolution in the event of his imminent ousting is that it won't be accepted, right?" which just completely misunderstands the principles. It isn't a 50-50, mibbee ayes, mibbee naws, sort of call that HMK has to make, like an umpire adjudging an LBW appeal. The default, null, safe option is to grant the dissolution, it's only in insanely rare crises that you think about doing anything else.. If Charles grants a dissolution he isn't really doing anything. Not sticking his head above the parapet. What makes you think he wants to kick off his reign by enabling 6 months of Suella Braverman PM? Most GEs happen after 4 and a bit years anyway, and Sunak can just say he feels it's about time for one. And at the time he makes the request there's unlikely to be anything beyond tittle tattle about letters to Old Lady to suggest an imminent ousting anyway. On the face of it he will command a 62 seat majority.This is merely bonkers.
An insanely rare situation like.....a PM who has lost control of his own party wanting to dissolve parliament?
"Lost control of his party" will be PB tittle tattle, not something of which regal notice has to be taken, at the time he asks Chas to blow the whistle.
Let me guess, you are a disgruntled party member, voted for Truss, itching for a Sunakian Ides of March. Not going to happen. He, to coin a phrase, holds all the cards.
In this context, “lost control of his party” would have to mean he’d lost a formal vote of confidence and was expected to resign as party leader.
Or a VONC was pending, I'd say.
Just look at the letter
"no wise Sovereign—that is, one who has at heart the true interest of the country, the constitution, and the Monarchy—would deny a dissolution to his Prime Minister unless he were satisfied that: (1) the existing Parliament was still vital, viable, and capable of doing its job; (2) a General Election would be detrimental to the national economy; (3) he could rely on finding another Prime Minister who could carry on his Government, for a reasonable period, with a working majority in the House of Commons."
Barty wants (1) to mean there's a working majority, but that is nonsense because that's (3). It actually means what it says. Who is going to look at a tory party squabbling over whether the 6 month rump of the parliament should be presided over by Braverman or RM and think "vital, viable, and capable of doing its job"? This is a nonsense.
Anyway, a vonc ain't pending till Old Lady says so. There will be weeks for Sunak to act in. And it gives KC a chance for a splendid monarchist/republican crossover line: “You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go.”
The funny thing about those who whip out the Lascelles principles is that they think what they're doing is showing how strong their position is, when in fact by having to claim how 'strong' their case is, they are in fact showing how weak a position their lad is in....
He's not "my lad", I despise him only slightly less than I despise his predecessor, her predecessor and his possible successors, I am just pointing out the way things are. And if people are forever whipping out their Lascelles principles to you (matron!) it's odd how little understanding you have of them.
And I would point out that it wasn't me who whipped them out, it was you. I think they are utterly irrelevant.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
Don't you tell pretty much everyone to fuck off anyway?
It's his way of telling us on PB he loves us.
So is Lee Anderson saying to immigrants that he loves them to France?
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
Not at all - you have the perfect approach. It is not analogous at all. Everyone is getting potatoes, just that you are cooking them differently (same with steaks, right?).
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Not a dinner party scenario - but at family get together / big work dos I get quite annoyed at the lack of veggie offering; not because there is nothing but because meat eaters will eat both their meat option and my veggie option, meaning the veggie option depletes quite quickly despite not many veggies being at a thing. At work we’ve started ordering veggie only buffets - half the team is veggie or vegan and when we ordered meat options alongside they were always left over but the veggie stuff would go quickly.
My wife complains of this, frequently.
Because meat eaters eat a balanced diet?
That's what you're supposed to do.
If meat eaters are eating veggie sides to go with their meat then they're not doing anything wrong, they're having a balanced meal.
If there's insufficient side orders/veg options then that's a balance problem, not a reason to cut out the meat. 🤦♂️
Er, no.
I was talking about the vegetarian alternative to meat dishes, not "veggie sides", a phrase which suggests your ideological stance on the matter.
It's also provides a little perspective on the relative desirability of vegetarian dishes, and your "we're better people" belief.
The conversation was about a buffet.
I'm sorry but veggie options at a buffet are almost all perfectly reasonable sides to have with your meat. If the buffet is running out of veggie options then order more veggie options next buffet, don't cut out the meat.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
Don't you tell pretty much everyone to fuck off anyway?
It's his way of telling us on PB he loves us.
So is Lee Anderson saying to immigrants that he loves them to France?
Well, Mr Sunak will have to decide *that* sooner or later, if at all.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
Not a dinner party scenario - but at family get together / big work dos I get quite annoyed at the lack of veggie offering; not because there is nothing but because meat eaters will eat both their meat option and my veggie option, meaning the veggie option depletes quite quickly despite not many veggies being at a thing. At work we’ve started ordering veggie only buffets - half the team is veggie or vegan and when we ordered meat options alongside they were always left over but the veggie stuff would go quickly.
My wife complains of this, frequently.
Because meat eaters eat a balanced diet?
That's what you're supposed to do.
If meat eaters are eating veggie sides to go with their meat then they're not doing anything wrong, they're having a balanced meal.
If there's insufficient side orders/veg options then that's a balance problem, not a reason to cut out the meat. 🤦♂️
Exactly, the lesson to take from this is to order more varied buffets, not cut out the food that the majority eat.
The lesson is that you need more nut cutlets than you think.
I think what this is proving is that PB is full of social misfits who despite their declarations to the contrary all live in the basements of their parents' houses, don't really understand personal interactions and still less have any of them, and use their "friends" to prove points they are trying to make to strangers on the internet.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
But that is not the same is it. I'm a meat eater but I also love a veggie meal. Most (all) meat eaters do.
I like vegetables, I like meat and they go well together. Cannot remember the last time a meal I had was vegan certainly. Vegetarian when I have a cheese salad is about the closest I get.
I am not a huge fan of pulses and avoid them like the plague because I find them disgusting. Most vegetarian or vegan meals seem replete with them so yes I don't want generally to eat them as I don't like pulses (by which I mean any type of bean, lentils etc).
I think what this is proving is that PB is full of social misfits who despite their declarations to the contrary all live in the basements of their parents' houses, don't really understand personal interactions and still less have any of them, and use their "friends" to prove points they are trying to make to strangers on the internet.
Or perhaps people like to play devils advocate a bit on the internet and sometimes take things a bit far.
Problem: we keep getting calls on the landline from people saying we've been ringing them up. We haven't. Obviously scammers have been calling people, but making it seem as if the call was coming from us rather than them. It's happened 3 times so far. (We don't want to get rid of the landline phone number, so that isn't a solution).
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
Not at all - you have the perfect approach. It is not analogous at all. Everyone is getting potatoes, just that you are cooking them differently (same with steaks, right?).
Actually would never serve a steak for others as it makes me wince if they want it other than blue
I think what this is proving is that PB is full of social misfits who despite their declarations to the contrary all live in the basements of their parents' houses, don't really understand personal interactions and still less have any of them, and use their "friends" to prove points they are trying to make to strangers on the internet.
I dispute that entirely........
I couldn't possibly fit in my parents' basement, it's too full of claret.
On the assumption that all the science is correct it seems to me that a technical solution through decarbonisation and adaptation is the most feasible answer to the problem of global warming. It is quite obvious that it is not going to be realistic to stop consumption in developing counties, if you stake all your hopes on this, accepting the massive economic hit that would be involved, then you are going to end up disappointed and you will not innovate (which is necessary to solve the problem) at the same rate.
Perhaps this position is actually a form of faith in technical progress, but there is evidence of success to justify it, ie with the improving efficiency of solar panels, the emergence of electric cars, etc. To the contrary I've seen little evidence that developing countries will slow down their growth in consumption. It seems to me that the environmental activists and their fellow travellers are right to point out the problem but by catastrophising and preaching that consumption is a sin they are actually getting in the way of the optimum solution.
That to me is what feels more like a religious belief "a new technology will save us" where we have no actual reason to believe it will, when instead we have had the means to make the necessary changes in the last 30 years and it was decided not to. If environmentalists making demands for revolution sound like religious zealots, it's partly because the last 30 years have been such monumental failures:
The point is that there have been massive positive technological changes in the past three decades.
The religious are those who say that little or nothing has been done.
That technological change has not reduced the likelihood of climate catastrophe and has increased it. In the last 30 years we've had the incentive, we've had the knowledge and we've had the technology to massively change economies - the issue has been that the "market" (see those invested in oil) have incentives for short term profit over long term sustainability. We do not currently have viable carbon capture tech, and to assume that we will have it in time to save us sounds more akin to a faith based position than the materialist approach of just reducing our dependency on fossil fuels and reducing our consumption. I don't advocate going back to the stone age - we could have a globally average standard of living that is very good that is also not highly destructive to the environment. What you can't have is that and growth growth growth at the same time.
So in your alternative vision, 8 billion people would collectively have a higher standard of living but with lower aggregate consumption? How does that add up?
Redistribution of resources. The analogy of growth is always "you might get a smaller slice, but of a bigger pie, so you'll be richer". I'm saying we need to shrink the pie, but give more people bigger slices. That means some people will get smaller slices, yes, but most of those people already have massive slices and they'll be relatively worse off compared to their life previously, but still very well off compared to the standard of living across the whole of human history. Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates are not people who deserve millions times more resources at their disposal than any other human being.
And that is because you are a religious zealot who doesn't give a damn about the environment.
Shrinking the pie, but keeping dirty technologies, does not help the environment, does not solve CO2 and other emissions, does not address climate change. It does nothing positive.
Having economic growth, with clean technologies, is better for the planet, better for the environment, and raises living standards.
They are not perfect individuals, far from it, but Elon Musk with the assistance he has given to push the switch to electric vehicles and Bill Gates with his Foundation have done more for the planet than anyone in Greenpeace or Just Stop Oil or any other hairshirt zealot ever has.
Elon Musk today is driving down CO2 production by encouraging people to switch off Twitter, so well done that man!
Of course, this argument over reduced consumption vs technological innovation as solutions to climate change is silly. We need both and both are happening.
No, the only thing we need is technological innovation.
Consumption is higher than its ever been, and ought to be higher still in the future. That is a good thing.
And apparently environmentalists are the zealots...
Why must consumption be ever rising?
Because consumption is a good thing. It is a positive for human health and happiness.
So long as it can be sustainably generated from renewable resources, then what could you possibly want to consume less of? Healthcare? Education? Food for those in need?
The world doesn't consume enough, that is why there are people in poverty.
To eliminate hunger, we need more food consumed - and more and better healthier foods to replace calorie-intensive sugars.
To lift everyone to healthy standards of living, we need to be consuming far more than we are now as a species. To do that needs development in sustainable, clean, renewable technologies. Not hairshirts, or leaving people in poverty.
I could consume more now. I could go and eat some ice cream (homemade raspberry), but I'm full after lunch and that wouldn't be good for my health. I could turn the speakers up and consume more electricity, but my background music is as loud as I want it. Maybe I'll turn on my portable radiator and my portable air con unit at the same time! More consumption is not necessarily a good thing for everyone in every situation.
I didn't say it was a good thing for everyone in every situation.
It is a good thing, in aggregate, for our species though.
You may be full after lunch, but others across the planet are hungry.
You may have music, others can't afford entertainment.
You may have your room at a nice temperature, others are too hot or too cold.
To get everyone on the planet to be able to eat as well as you can, have a heated/air conditioned room as well as you can, the entertainment you take for granted etc will require much more consumption globally than we have as a species today.
So either we want people to remain in poverty (I don't), living standards to fall (I don't), or we need more consumption globally (I do).
So the question is how as a species we can both increase consumption and responsibly look after the planet. To which the answer is technology as it has been for hundreds if not thousands of years. But it needs to be clean technologies.
So you accept that overconsumption is possible?
My position is essentially that current occasions of overconsumption is greater than the shortfall needed to make up the under consumption to bring poor people up to a decent standard of living.
I would therefore prefer to look for a solution that equal out this equation using what is already there rather than adding more stuff to the under consumption side to equal it out; redistribution.
Why is that necessarily bad, and why would piling more side onto the under consumption side necessarily be better?
And your position is bullshit.
People are only overconsuming calories because of the abundance of processed crap like sugars, not because of an overconsumption of healthy foods.
How do we ensure everyone on the planet can get abundant supply of healthy beef and other healthy food that we take for granted, without a reliance upon processed carbs?
By leveraging the resources dedicated to processed carbs - the subsidies, the labour, the land, the marketing - to healthier food options. And redistributing what we currently have.
Just on the issue of meat:
Current guidance is more than 90g of red or processed meat a day is probably bad, and that it should be closer to 70g.
Note that the UK averages more than twice the recommended amount, and the US averages more than three times the recommended amount. And we also know that richer people have more access to meat if they want it.
The problem though is that the processed carb crap is less resource intensive than clean foods like meat. A bad food like sugar is a much easier cash crop to generate than a healthy food like beef. So to switch to a healthier diet needs more resources, not less.
The current guidance is out of date and badly flawed. Anyone who follows that guidance is eating too much carbs and not enough protein in my and many other people's eyes. Which is what leads to obesity and Type 2 diabetes.
To be able to get 8 billion to be able to consume enough meat is not something we currently generate. We need to be able to generate far more meat and far less carbs.
But either way 8 billion x 70g x 365.25 is more than current global production, is it not?
No. That's 204.54 million tonnes of meat. Current global production is 350 million tonnes.
@148grss is mixing up a recommened value for red meat with meat in general.
It says red or processed meat - as someone who has not eaten meat for a very long time that sounds like most meat to me? The consumption map works on the basis of "expected EU average by 2030" which is 165g of meat.
Chickens and pigs do the heavy lifting (~ 150 million tonnes) globally so no.
But the literal example given by the site talks about red or processed meat and uses sausages and bacon as an example - again what I'd assume is a lot of pork consumption (and lots of chicken will be processed). And sure, those areas with lower meat consumption will likely lean on chicken or pork (and non processed chicken or pork) over red or processed meats.
Well then we're not producing enough red meat for everyone to get their 75 grams. Like Bart you can't have this both ways.
I think this is another culture war thing where both sides scream at each other and adopt extreme positions, neither of which are true.
We need to eat a smaller amount of higher quality meat.
We should not eat no meat. And we should not continue to consume current levels of meat.
Human beings do not need to eat meat.
And vegetarians on average live about 9 years longer than flesheaters.
Source?
"For example, several studies with large sample sizes conducted in Australia18 and the United Kingdom19,20 did not show that meat eating correlated negatively with life expectancy after controlling for health-related elements of lifestyles"
I suspect that's right. Basically, there aren't that many vegetarian smokers
In general, though, you want to eat a balanced diet, and avoid too much sugar and salt.
And for most people, that probably means they are eating more green vegetables and reducing quantities of processed food (which is going to include burgers and fries).
I tend to be live and let live...eat what you enjoy but I have found some but not all vegans/vegetarians evangelical, indeed a vegan was one of the only two times I have lodged a complaint with hr about a co worker
Vegetarians tend to be relatively pragmatic folk, it's the vegans who are usually the religious nuts.
Personally, if I cook for guests it will usually be with an animal (fish or meat) main course.
But not always.
Sometimes I do risotto with halloumi cheese for a main, and that is veggie. (Albeit, if I'm doing a veggie main, I'll probably have meat or fish for the starter.)
There are some really excellent South Indian restaurants around Drummond Street in London (near Euston) that are all vegetarian. I would highly recommend Diwana, and have been going there for at least 45 of my 48 years on this planet.
You are a reasonable person, Robert. (Though perhaps tending to the doctrinaire in your - admittedly sound - musical tastes.)
I would have liked but the use of 'sound musical tastes' put me off.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
I've no idea how many dinner parties you host, nor the people you invite - it certainly sounds like it isn't your friends - but the whole thing sounds ghastly.
I commend your effort, but with the amount of dietary variations that are relatively mainstream these days (veggie, vegan, coeliac), it doesn't leave your more conventional attendees with a very delicious or satisfying meal.
Says you. Plus as I have noted, the food is the least important thing about a dinner party and certainly not something that would detain me a moment when I think about my "attitude" towards any particular dietary requirements. As long as the wine and conversation is flowing I couldn't care less what is eaten and I certainly wouldn't think any less of a friend for cooking me the "wrong" kind of meal.
Ok. So if one of your 11 guests was vegan, and another was coeliac, everyone would get very unconventional (most of it is shit to be honest) bread, no cheese, eggs, milk or honey, no conventional pastry, no butter, etc. etc. etc. The (vegan) wine would have to flow to make that a less than underwhelming experience. It might even be less awkward for the dietary divergers if you didn't subject everyone to their choices. But they are your dinner parties and clearly you work it out OK.
Problem: we keep getting calls on the landline from people saying we've been ringing them up. We haven't. Obviously scammers have been calling people, but making it seem as if the call was coming from us rather than them. It's happened 3 times so far. (We don't want to get rid of the landline phone number, so that isn't a solution).
Gah how frustrating.
We have a biz landline at the shop. 9/10 calls are sales calls or 'Microsoft safety team' scammers.
My pet peeve is my bank wanting me to 'approve' almost every transaction via my app now.
I mean, sure, maybe check the transactions with new vendors. But do I REALLY need to approve my almost daily courier bookings with the same company?
I think what this is proving is that PB is full of social misfits who despite their declarations to the contrary all live in the basements of their parents' houses, don't really understand personal interactions and still less have any of them, and use their "friends" to prove points they are trying to make to strangers on the internet.
Or perhaps people like to play devils advocate a bit on the internet and sometimes take things a bit far.
Problem: we keep getting calls on the landline from people saying we've been ringing them up. We haven't. Obviously scammers have been calling people, but making it seem as if the call was coming from us rather than them. It's happened 3 times so far. (We don't want to get rid of the landline phone number, so that isn't a solution).
Gah how frustrating.
We have a biz landline at the shop. 9/10 calls are sales calls or 'Microsoft safety team' scammers.
My pet peeve is my bank wanting me to 'approve' almost every transaction via my app now.
I mean, sure, maybe check the transactions with new vendors. But do I REALLY need to approve my almost daily courier bookings with the same company?
While I theoretically have a landline I havent had a phone plugged into for just this reason. At least on my mobile unknown number I can just let goto voicemail and scammers generally wont leave them
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
But that is not the same is it. I'm a meat eater but I also love a veggie meal. Most (all) meat eaters do.
I like vegetables, I like meat and they go well together. Cannot remember the last time a meal I had was vegan certainly. Vegetarian when I have a cheese salad is about the closest I get.
I am not a huge fan of pulses and avoid them like the plague because I find them disgusting. Most vegetarian or vegan meals seem replete with them so yes I don't want generally to eat them as I don't like pulses (by which I mean any type of bean, lentils etc).
Macaroni cheese, Cauliflower cheese, vegetable curry. I had a lovely potato and cauliflower curry last night. My wife does a lovely stilton and walnut tart. How about a simple cheese omelette. Other favourites of mine are a fennel casserole or a vegetable crumble. How about beans on toast? Most of us have that sometimes.
There are lots of veggie meals. Vegan I grant you is a challenge.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
But that is not the same is it. I'm a meat eater but I also love a veggie meal. Most (all) meat eaters do.
I like vegetables, I like meat and they go well together. Cannot remember the last time a meal I had was vegan certainly. Vegetarian when I have a cheese salad is about the closest I get.
I am not a huge fan of pulses and avoid them like the plague because I find them disgusting. Most vegetarian or vegan meals seem replete with them so yes I don't want generally to eat them as I don't like pulses (by which I mean any type of bean, lentils etc).
Macaroni cheese, Cauliflower cheese, vegetable curry. I had a lovely potato and cauliflower curry last night. My wife does a lovely stilton and walnut tart. How about a simple cheese omelette. Other favourites of mine are a fennel casserole or a vegetable crumble. How about beans on toast? Most of us have that sometimes.
There are lots of veggie meals. Vegan I grant you is a challenge.
Macaroni cheese should have bacon in it.
There's few things that aren't improved with bacon though.
My daughter has been vegetarian for about 8 years now. She no longer lives at home but when she did she often did her own cooking. When we have family BBQs etc we have a shelf for the vegetable stuff and a lower shelf for the meat so it doesn’t drip on the veggies. She isn’t bothered by other’s eating meat but finds some of the seafood more problematic because it looks much more like a complete animal. I quite like some of her vegetarian stuff, I particularly like some of the roasts she has at Christmas which tastes like an excellent stuffing. I am not really getting all the aggro on here this evening. It’s never been a problem.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
But that is not the same is it. I'm a meat eater but I also love a veggie meal. Most (all) meat eaters do.
I like vegetables, I like meat and they go well together. Cannot remember the last time a meal I had was vegan certainly. Vegetarian when I have a cheese salad is about the closest I get.
I am not a huge fan of pulses and avoid them like the plague because I find them disgusting. Most vegetarian or vegan meals seem replete with them so yes I don't want generally to eat them as I don't like pulses (by which I mean any type of bean, lentils etc).
Macaroni cheese, Cauliflower cheese, vegetable curry. I had a lovely potato and cauliflower curry last night. My wife does a lovely stilton and walnut tart. How about a simple cheese omelette. Other favourites of mine are a fennel casserole or a vegetable crumble. How about beans on toast? Most of us have that sometimes.
There are lots of veggie meals. Vegan I grant you is a challenge.
Macaroni cheese should have bacon in it.
There's few things that aren't improved with bacon though.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
But that is not the same is it. I'm a meat eater but I also love a veggie meal. Most (all) meat eaters do.
I like vegetables, I like meat and they go well together. Cannot remember the last time a meal I had was vegan certainly. Vegetarian when I have a cheese salad is about the closest I get.
I am not a huge fan of pulses and avoid them like the plague because I find them disgusting. Most vegetarian or vegan meals seem replete with them so yes I don't want generally to eat them as I don't like pulses (by which I mean any type of bean, lentils etc).
Macaroni cheese, Cauliflower cheese, vegetable curry. I had a lovely potato and cauliflower curry last night. My wife does a lovely stilton and walnut tart. How about a simple cheese omelette. Other favourites of mine are a fennel casserole or a vegetable crumble. How about beans on toast? Most of us have that sometimes.
There are lots of veggie meals. Vegan I grant you is a challenge.
Macaroni cheese should have bacon in it.
There's few things that aren't improved with bacon though.
Well I'm not going to disagree with that, ever.
Conversely, few things aren't improved with cheese.
Not a "third" data leak, but more a concern with the combination of statutory data and searchable databases. The issue of [edit] anonymization, more generally, is well known in medical research. Edit: that's why sales of NHS data to commercial firms are such a sensitive issue.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I like the idea that veggies and vegans have tried to make you eat “their food” at events. Like, vegetables? Would you just like a plate of meat and nothing else?
They have served just vegetables and offered nothing else.
This is well documented - and indeed even some leftwing councils do it deliberately- so let's not pretend this isn't a thing please.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
I you don't eat meat because you consider the farming and slaughter of animals to be cruel, it would be inconsistent in the extreme to serve it to other people.
So they expect to be served their own choice when they go to someone else's house but won't return the favour?
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
Suppose I like tripe? Doesn't mean I expect to be given andouillettes, or tripe and onions, in a normal household when visiting: ie a household hwere even handling and cooking the stuff, and its smell, puts everyone off their dinner, whatever it is. .
Vegan food puts me off my food. I'll still make it for my guests if that's what they eat, despite the fact its not what I eat, even if I'm not keen on the smell.
What amuses me too is vegans on Tripadvisor. Go to non-vegan restaurants and vegans will complain about the lack of vegan options on the menu if there aren't enough on the menu in their eyes. Yet there's no options for me in a vegan restaurant - you won't see me leave scathing 1* reviews on their restaurant though, I'll simply go to one that suits me instead.
Vegans always feel like they should be catered to everywhere, yet don't think I should be. Funny that.
I go the other way and complain when there are too many vegan options on the menu.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
But that is not the same is it. I'm a meat eater but I also love a veggie meal. Most (all) meat eaters do.
I like vegetables, I like meat and they go well together. Cannot remember the last time a meal I had was vegan certainly. Vegetarian when I have a cheese salad is about the closest I get.
I am not a huge fan of pulses and avoid them like the plague because I find them disgusting. Most vegetarian or vegan meals seem replete with them so yes I don't want generally to eat them as I don't like pulses (by which I mean any type of bean, lentils etc).
Macaroni cheese, Cauliflower cheese, vegetable curry. I had a lovely potato and cauliflower curry last night. My wife does a lovely stilton and walnut tart. How about a simple cheese omelette. Other favourites of mine are a fennel casserole or a vegetable crumble. How about beans on toast? Most of us have that sometimes.
There are lots of veggie meals. Vegan I grant you is a challenge.
Macaroni cheese should have bacon in it.
There's few things that aren't improved with bacon though.
Well I'm not going to disagree with that, ever.
One good thing about Canada is they put bacon in everything.
One Christmas there I even had Brussels Sprouts which were diced and served with diced bacon. Only enjoyable Brussels Sprouts I've ever had.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
Suppose I like tripe? Doesn't mean I expect to be given andouillettes, or tripe and onions, in a normal household when visiting: ie a household hwere even handling and cooking the stuff, and its smell, puts everyone off their dinner, whatever it is. .
Vegan food puts me off my food. I'll still make it for my guests if that's what they eat, despite the fact its not what I eat, even if I'm not keen on the smell.
What amuses me too is vegans on Tripadvisor. Go to non-vegan restaurants and vegans will complain about the lack of vegan options on the menu if there aren't enough on the menu in their eyes. Yet there's no options for me in a vegan restaurant - you won't see me leave scathing 1* reviews on their restaurant though, I'll simply go to one that suits me instead.
Vegans always feel like they should be catered to everywhere, yet don't think I should be. Funny that.
I go the other way and complain when there are too many vegan options on the menu.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
I challenge anyone who says there is no such thing as a good vegetarian meal to visit Diwana on Drummond Street. It is South indian cuisine: thalis, bhel poori and dhosas, and it is absolutely delicious.
I love myself a bit of steak. I love lamb chops.
But the food there is absolutely superb. When I'm in London, I nearly always try and go there.
Meat you can get whole cuts of unprocessed meat. Whereas you largely get processed crap for the alternative, which is nowhere near as healthy and not something we should wish upon our worst enemy.
While that might be true for an Asda own brand vegan burger, an Impossible burger contains 19g of protein, while there are 18g in a Beyond burger.
Also it’s a bean burger, not a pretend-meat burger! And if you think the beefburger *isn't* processed… well, ignorance is bliss I guess.
People get very strange very quickly when the consumption of flesh is questioned.
The idea that vegan food is ‘all processed carbs’ is just daft, unless you have an extraordinarily broad definition of ‘processed’ which extends to such processes as ‘picking fruit off a tree’.
It's entirely natural. The whole planet works on the basis of a living food chain.
What do people think consumes their flesh when our time on earth is up?
Little clue: they aren't vegan.
Natural does not equal necessary. It's natural for me to not be able to see clearly 4ft in front of my face, but I like my glasses. It's also natural to piss and shit straight onto the soil, but I'm sure people would get upset if I did that outside of any private compost heap I might decide to keep.
No one is saying that humans cannot get nutrients from meat, just that we can have a diet that doesn't include it.
If you feel that the consumption of meat is morally abhorrent, or just dislike the mass produced nature of a lot of meat now, then you can live a healthy life without eating meat.
Yes this is my position. I know that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet without meat as I haven't eaten meat in 35 years and am in great health. I've never tried to force this view on anyone else and as far as I can see on this forum the greatest proselytisers are from the eating dead animals camp. I do wish they would fuck off as I believe the government likes to put it.
I've never tried to make someone eat meat.
I've definitely had vegans and vegetarians try and make me eat their diet at events, either directly or through moral blackmail, or use their diet to exercise control in social situations. At a macro level there's a strong movement to tax or regulate me out of meat too.
So I wish they would fuck off, actually.
I've seen people - usually old fogies - insist on trying to feed meat to vegetarians or pescetarians even when given ample notice to go for one of their other perfectlyt normal recipes.
Yes, I've been vegetarian ever since I was a teenager (I'm in my 50s now) and my father never accepted it. Whenever I dropped round, he'd offer me a bacon sandwich or suchlike and then act all hurt when I turned it down. I never really understood his determination to make me eat meat when I was obviously doing fine without it.
I cook a lot and have people around if someone is a vegetarian/vegan I have always made a main dish for them that is vegatarian/vegan....what I won't do is make the whole main dish vegetarian/vegan. The rest of us will be eating meat
I'm the opposite. Rabid meat eater. But if I'm giving a dinner party and there is a veggie there I will give everyone veggie food. Gives me a chance to show off my creativity although warning: putting (delicious) open cap mushrooms in things turns everything grey. I think it's rude to give people different things effectively singling them out for their dietary choices. I invited them, after all.
If someone wants to make a dietary choice, then that's their choice, but everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it.
My choice is to eat meat, and if I was eating at a vegan household I'd be seriously impressed and pleased if they put the effort in to make a meal suitable to my choices, not feel singled out.
For some reason though most vegans think they should be catered for, but there's no onus on them to return the favour.
As I said I believe it is rude. I have invited the person for dinner and the essence of good manners is not to make someone feel awkward or out of place. Hence everyone gets veggie food. Rolling out a separate dish for them, although I'm sure would be appreciated, is imo bad manners. But then I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.
That is your choice, many though would be offended at not being served because someone is a vegetarian.
Not my friends. If they are offended because they don't get their lamb cutlets because another of my, likely our friends is a veggie then they wouldn't be a friend.
Frankly I would rather cut the veggie out
Again, more of a comment on you and I'm sure your dinner parties are a guinea a minute.
In my experience vegan/vegetarian friends are short term.....pretty much everyone I have had has at some point tried to lecture me about meat means murder and get told to fuck off
QED. People are lining up to bemoan the attitude of people at their dinner parties that they are never going to invite to their dinner parties.
No it means I am happy to invite them, make an effort for them. They don't however get to impose their standards on others.
Doesn't sound like you are talking about a friend. Sounds like you are talking about an imaginary vegan about whom you like to rant. If you are talking about a friend what a nasty attitude you have to your friends.
Ok here is another example. My step brother only likes his roast potato's, parsnips etc. burnt to a crisp. When I have him over for the sunday roast I get the potato's etc out then leave enough for him in the oven to overcook. By your argument I should serve everyone blackened roasties so he is not singled out.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
But that is not the same is it. I'm a meat eater but I also love a veggie meal. Most (all) meat eaters do.
I like vegetables, I like meat and they go well together. Cannot remember the last time a meal I had was vegan certainly. Vegetarian when I have a cheese salad is about the closest I get.
I am not a huge fan of pulses and avoid them like the plague because I find them disgusting. Most vegetarian or vegan meals seem replete with them so yes I don't want generally to eat them as I don't like pulses (by which I mean any type of bean, lentils etc).
Macaroni cheese, Cauliflower cheese, vegetable curry. I had a lovely potato and cauliflower curry last night. My wife does a lovely stilton and walnut tart. How about a simple cheese omelette. Other favourites of mine are a fennel casserole or a vegetable crumble. How about beans on toast? Most of us have that sometimes.
There are lots of veggie meals. Vegan I grant you is a challenge.
Macaroni cheese should have bacon in it.
There's few things that aren't improved with bacon though.
Well I'm not going to disagree with that, ever.
One good thing about Canada is they put bacon in everything.
One Christmas there I even had Brussels Sprouts which were diced and served with diced bacon. Only enjoyable Brussels Sprouts I've ever had.
For Christmas dinner I always serve Brussels with bacon and chestnuts
Edit: it just dawned on me I might have to invite you to Christmas dinner.
Comments
That's about a mile from where I live. The Bridle Trails neighborhood centers around a park for those who ride horses, and many of the homes there have stables.
Black bears visit these eastside suburbs every year, usually looking for easy food sources, like bird feeders.
They aren't much of a problem. (Grizzly bears (Ursus arctos horribilis), in contrast, you really don't want near populated areas.)
(Occasionally, mountain lions visit. There have even been a few in Seattle itself, over the years. There are many coyotes in this area, of course. It's my impression they keep the feral cat population under control -- but that's not something I mention to cat lovers.)
They forgot to make a veggie main course. My tutor had a word, and suddenly the (very few, this was Oxford in the Noughties) veggies were all presented with a single, massive wedge of stilton.
with over 99% of expected votes counted:
No 1,744,094 57.01%
Yes 1,315,346 42.99%
> Rather cack-handed attempt by Republican-controlled legislature, to stymie proposed state constitutional amendment on November 2023 ballot to guarantee right to abortion in Ohio.
> Fact that it was hastily put on August ballot (first summertime vote on const amend in over century) shows that Buckeye GOPers were relying on low turnout, dominated by avid anti-abortion voters, to derail effort at putting Roe v Wade protections into Ohio constitution this fall by simple majority.
> Note the Leg did this immediately AFTER scrapping August statewide ballot measures, on grounds of low turnout!
> Anyway, rather predictable that - as in case of Kansas last year - instead of sliding by via voter suppression, either indirect as in summer election or direct as in eliminating early voting Monday before election day, what GOP wingnuts (from SCOTUS to Columbus) did, was LIGHT A FIRE under the asses of pro-choice voters. In this case, from Ashtabula to Athens County.
> Even in the ashes of their own defeat, however, Republican politicos and their henchpeople can derive some comfort from the fact that in most Ohio counties, voters said Yes to Issue 1. Reason it failed was because these are rural, small-town counties; the cities and suburbs voted No.
Of course a few city rats did vote Yes, and an even higher percentage of country mice said No. Reflecting perspective of pro-choice Republicans and other generally-conservative voters, who were willing to break ranks with the GOP on this vote (and also in November).
So local victories for Yes on Issue 1 across rural Ohio, from the cornfields on the Indiana border to the dystopian hell-on-earth that is Marietta, would appear to be down to two key factors:
> strength of anti-abortion sentiment and organization (esp. church based) in many rural areas
> strength of Republican voter identification and mobilization, the latter being aided by aging rural populations with above-average voting history and propensity.
Of course the REAL question, is, what does the landslide defeat of Issue 1 portend for 2024, in Ohio and way beyond?
Same as Kansas Summer 2022: that repeal of Roe v. Wade has energized MANY mainly Democratic voters, to actually turn out and vote. AND that there are likely to be impacts when the leaves start to fall this year, just as there were in 2022 midterms THAT autumn.
Expect more of the same for 2024.
Which is basically why meat eaters are in my view better people than vegetarians.
Most meat eaters will cater to vegetarians, to try to make them happy despite not agreeing with their choice.
But most vegetarians won't cater to meat eaters, to make them happy.
I do have one veggie friend who is an exception. He goes out of the way to buy in and cook a meat option for meat eating guests despite being a vegetarian - because he's a good person who wants to make his guests happy.
Joking apart we're still in touch. She was in a minority of 4 amongst about 500 that night!
In any case the food is the least important part of a dp.
Those deer-inflicted fatalities are not, so far as we know, caused by deer-on-human predation. They’re the unfortunate result of more than 2 million people a year plowing into deer with their sedans and SUVs, usually on a two-lane road, often at high speed."
source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/01/20/deer-car-collisions/
(The most dangerous animal in the US is probably one of the disease-carrying mosquitos -- and I am gratedul that they are mostly under control, here.)
"no wise Sovereign—that is, one who has at heart the true interest of the country, the constitution, and the Monarchy—would deny a dissolution to his Prime Minister unless he were satisfied that: (1) the existing Parliament was still vital, viable, and capable of doing its job; (2) a General Election would be detrimental to the national economy; (3) he could rely on finding another Prime Minister who could carry on his Government, for a reasonable period, with a working majority in the House of Commons."
Barty wants (1) to mean there's a working majority, but that is nonsense because that's (3). It actually means what it says. Who is going to look at a tory party squabbling over whether the 6 month rump of the parliament should be presided over by Braverman or RM and think "vital, viable, and capable of doing its job"? This is a nonsense.
Anyway, a vonc ain't pending till Old Lady says so. There will be weeks for Sunak to act in. And it gives KC a chance for a splendid monarchist/republican crossover line: “You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go.”
That's what you're supposed to do.
If meat eaters are eating veggie sides to go with their meat then they're not doing anything wrong, they're having a balanced meal.
If there's insufficient side orders/veg options then that's a balance problem, not a reason to cut out the meat. 🤦♂️
https://horsesonly.com/horse-riding-accidents/
If you want to make guests happy though, putting some effort into catering to their choices isn't a bad thing.
This goes with meats too not just vegetables. If I'm serving steaks, I eat those rare myself but if someone else prefers medium rare, medium or even *shudders* well done then I'll cater to them and serve them as they like it - not give them my choice.
Personally, if I cook for guests it will usually be with an animal (fish or meat) main course.
But not always.
Sometimes I do risotto with halloumi cheese for a main, and that is veggie. (Albeit, if I'm doing a veggie main, I'll probably have meat or fish for the starter.)
There are some really excellent South Indian restaurants around Drummond Street in London (near Euston) that are all vegetarian. I would highly recommend Diwana, and have been going there for at least 45 of my 48 years on this planet.
A friend you wouldn't give a damn about any of this and if you did, for a friend, then that is pretty sad tbh.
Positively a treat.
I goto the extra hassle of making a good main dish for a vegetarian/vegan but that is not good enough....no it is there faddy diet and their choice. I catered for it just like I do with my stepbrother. I just refuse to let it impact others
I was talking about the vegetarian alternative to meat dishes, not "veggie sides", a phrase which suggests your ideological stance on the matter.
It's also provides a little perspective on the relative desirability of vegetarian dishes, and your "we're better people" belief.
Everyone I know with a funny diet is generally happy to be catered to their requests, very rare to see anyone expect everyone to have to have what they want.
Perhaps fair to say anyone who proselytised and expected everyone to have what they want wouldn't remain a friend for long. Relatives are more of an issue, you can't choose your relatives.
Vegetarianism is a niche fad, so is polyamory
(Though perhaps tending to the doctrinaire in your - admittedly sound - musical tastes.)
Deer are a problem in Scotland partly thanks to some shooting estates pushing up numbers, and refusing to discuss cooperation in control, but sheep are also dangerous as so unpredictable - I always make my friends slow down if there are sheep on the road.
And I would point out that it wasn't me who whipped them out, it was you. I think they are utterly irrelevant.
I'm sorry but veggie options at a buffet are almost all perfectly reasonable sides to have with your meat. If the buffet is running out of veggie options then order more veggie options next buffet, don't cut out the meat.
I am not a huge fan of pulses and avoid them like the plague because I find them disgusting. Most vegetarian or vegan meals seem replete with them so yes I don't want generally to eat them as I don't like pulses (by which I mean any type of bean, lentils etc).
Problem: we keep getting calls on the landline from people saying we've been ringing them up. We haven't. Obviously scammers have been calling people, but making it seem as if the call was coming from us rather than them. It's happened 3 times so far. (We don't want to get rid of the landline phone number, so that isn't a solution).
I couldn't possibly fit in my parents' basement, it's too full of claret.
We have a biz landline at the shop. 9/10 calls are sales calls or 'Microsoft safety team' scammers.
My pet peeve is my bank wanting me to 'approve' almost every transaction via my app now.
I mean, sure, maybe check the transactions with new vendors. But do I REALLY need to approve my almost daily courier bookings with the same company?
"Adopted children's names were disclosed on Scotland's People website"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66448432
There are lots of veggie meals. Vegan I grant you is a challenge.
There's few things that aren't improved with bacon though.
She isn’t bothered by other’s eating meat but finds some of the seafood more problematic because it looks much more like a complete animal.
I quite like some of her vegetarian stuff, I particularly like some of the roasts she has at Christmas which tastes like an excellent stuffing.
I am not really getting all the aggro on here this evening. It’s never been a problem.
This is well documented - and indeed even some leftwing councils do it deliberately- so let's not pretend this isn't a thing please.
One Christmas there I even had Brussels Sprouts which were diced and served with diced bacon. Only enjoyable Brussels Sprouts I've ever had.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMuOMXqleI
Got it.
I love myself a bit of steak. I love lamb chops.
But the food there is absolutely superb. When I'm in London, I nearly always try and go there.
Edit: it just dawned on me I might have to invite you to Christmas dinner.