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When’s Rishi going to risk a general election? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,953
    eek said:

    Miklosvar said:

    I’ve found another woke cause for Leon et al.

    This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.

    https://twitter.com/philiphensher/status/1688885747275763712?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    It’s a form of insanity.

    I keep highlighting the insanity of the Woke mind virus, and being told it's a modern form of political correctness.

    It's not. It's a total obsession with making absolutely everything about identity politics, coupled with moral lectures to be imbibed on top, that are deeply contentious and divisive.
    The thing is, I find that link *funny*, as I believe it was meant to be. You find it 'woke'.

    I laugh at (and with) them. You get angry.
    I think you have misunderstood the link, which is to a gay man whose views on "woke" align very closely with Casino's.
    He's a complete lost cause @Miklosvar
    Lost to what?

    I *think* I am a decent human being. I try to be a decent human being. To what am I 'lost' ?
    You are hyper-emotional and hysterical when this subject comes up, as you invasively sweat out what you think is your identity of being a decent human being.

    Unreflective people think Woke is coterminous with being a nice person, and therefore respond to any criticism of it in a shrill and uncontrolled manner in the belief the person making must be a nasty person.

    That's you. You lack the circumspection or self-control to be able to engage with it in any other way, and that's why you're a lost cause.
    Casino, I value your perspective. There's a line where niceness turns into bad woke, and that line does get crossed. But I believe I remember you getting very emotional about the wrongness of the stock choices in a new bookshop. Apologies if I've got that wrong.

    Even if your diagnosis of woke is right, you're really not in a position to criticise others for shrill, uncontrolled responses.
    Yes, that wound me up. It's a Wokeshop not a bookshop. The guy even ran an event 3 weeks ago - local paper, and everything - where he said he was on a "mission" against misogyny and would spend a whole week promoting this new book (which I don't want to promote) and encourage any customer that came through the door to buy one and offer half price to give to their friends. He used to live in London/Brighton and generates nothing but eye rolls here.

    There's so much about it that bothers me. The self-prom
    I have never set foot in his bookshop and never intend to.

    I’ve found another woke cause for Leon et al.

    This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.

    https://twitter.com/philiphensher/status/1688885747275763712?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    It’s a form of insanity.

    I keep highlighting the insanity of the Woke mind virus, and being told it's a modern form of political correctness.

    It's not. It's a total obsession with making absolutely everything about identity politics, coupled with moral lectures to be imbibed on top, that are deeply contentious and divisive.
    The thing is, I find that link *funny*, as I believe it was meant to be. You find it 'woke'.

    I laugh at (and with) them. You get angry.
    The problem with woke is the underlying mentality that drives it.

    Woke often gets labelled as 'Puritan', the implication being that those who are woke are miserable, do-gooders who preach to everyone else.

    But what gets missed in that conversation is Puritanism wasn't a religion in itself, it was the English derivation of Calvinism.

    Calvinism's central doctrine was that it had already been predetermined whether you were saved or not. Your actions counted for nothing (the opposite of the Catholic view). While theoretically you did not know whether you had been chosen, it was taken as granted that you had been if you were a Calvinist / Puritan.

    That had two effects. One was the self-righteous bit. That is the part that everyone associates with woke. But there is a second, far nastier part that is you can do pretty much what you want because you have already been saved and so, whatever you do - however reprehensible in 'normal' terms - is by itself a 'good' act and justified. That was the thinking that underpinned, for example, the South African Dutch Reformed Church's support of Apartheid and racial discrimination for centuries up until the 1980s.

    It is also a line of thinking that has much in common with the ideas of Communism and Nazism, i.e. that it is fine to commit what may seem to many people 'evil' in the cause of the greater good.

    I'm not saying the wokesters (yet) will have their concentration camps out but, given their comments and general attitudes, you can see there the direction of travel.

    That is the main problem with woke.

    Hmmm. I'd argue that the 'anti-woke' are currently the ones nearest fascism and concentration camps.

    But yes, both sides go too far, especially in wanting there to be only one view. But the screeches of 'anti-woke' seem to be against *anything* that might mean change, or change from the 1950s. Which is why the screechers are so unable to actually define 'woke'. They're shaking their fists at any views they do not like.
    Which is, methinks, why right-wingers around the globe are so enamored with anti-Wokeism.

    Precisely because "Woke" can mean ANYTHING that one wants to think it means.

    Hence perfect for wack-job hack politicos and their hench-people here & across the web.
    It is very very clear what it means.

    Those who keep asking what it means are being entirely disingenuous and engaging in distraction tactics.

    It's like all those people who continually post "Who funds you?" under full-time campaigning types they don't like on Twitter, no matter how many times they answer it; it's an effort to undermine the conversation they want to have and discredit the messenger.
    So clear and yet you can't actually define it.
    I've defined it multiple times, dipstick.

    Go through my comment history. Read, re-read and read again until you get it through your puny brain.
    You seem to have repeated an old post.

    It's a bookshop that sells some books you don't like - so what.

    You don't need to shop there...
    Err, and I don't.

    Next.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,758
    edited August 2023
    [deleted]
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,636

    .

    Nigelb said:

    I’ve found another woke cause for Leon et al.

    This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.

    https://twitter.com/philiphensher/status/1688885747275763712?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    It’s a form of insanity.

    I keep highlighting the insanity of the Woke mind virus, and being told it's a modern form of political correctness.

    It's not. It's a total obsession with making absolutely everything about identity politics, coupled with moral lectures to be imbibed on top, that are deeply contentious and divisive.
    The thing is, I find that link *funny*, as I believe it was meant to be. You find it 'woke'.

    I laugh at (and with) them. You get angry.
    No, that's all in your head. I just vociferously oppose it.

    You get far more angry when this subject comes up than I do.
    "You get far more angry when this subject"

    ???

    No. I just laugh at idiots who use terms like "Woke mind virus". Because they cannot accept people can have other views.
    You just can't accept you're infected by it.

    That's how bad it is.

    You're the idiot, not me.
    'Infected' ?
    Get some help.
    It's him that needs the help, not me.
    A slightly more grown up version of 'short bus rider' or 'special needs', it must be said.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,135
    viewcode said:

    [deleted]



    You want to Watch that.
  • viewcode said:

    I’ve found another woke cause for Leon et al.

    This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.

    https://twitter.com/philiphensher/status/1688885747275763712?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    It’s a form of insanity.

    I keep highlighting the insanity of the Woke mind virus, and being told it's a modern form of political correctness.

    It's not. It's a total obsession with making absolutely everything about identity politics, coupled with moral lectures to be imbibed on top, that are deeply contentious and divisive.
    The thing is, I find that link *funny*, as I believe it was meant to be. You find it 'woke'.

    I laugh at (and with) them. You get angry.
    The problem with woke is the underlying mentality that drives it.

    Woke often gets labelled as 'Puritan', the implication being that those who are woke are miserable, do-gooders who preach to everyone else.

    But what gets missed in that conversation is Puritanism wasn't a religion in itself, it was the English derivation of Calvinism.

    Calvinism's central doctrine was that it had already been predetermined whether you were saved or not. Your actions counted for nothing (the opposite of the Catholic view). While theoretically you did not know whether you had been chosen, it was taken as granted that you had been if you were a Calvinist / Puritan.

    That had two effects. One was the self-righteous bit. That is the part that everyone associates with woke. But there is a second, far nastier part that is you can do pretty much what you want because you have already been saved and so, whatever you do - however reprehensible in 'normal' terms - is by itself a 'good' act and justified. That was the thinking that underpinned, for example, the South African Dutch Reformed Church's support of Apartheid and racial discrimination for centuries up until the 1980s.

    It is also a line of thinking that has much in common with the ideas of Communism and Nazism, i.e. that it is fine to commit what may seem to many people 'evil' in the cause of the greater good.

    I'm not saying the wokesters (yet) will have their concentration camps out but, given their comments and general attitudes, you can see there the direction of travel.

    That is the main problem with woke.

    OK, who had "the woke want to build concentration camps" on their bingo card?
    I had to throw that one in there @viewcode....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,953

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    Oh come on Nick, sometimes it can be entertaining. Watching CR and JJ battle it out is far more entertaining than my occasional spats with Malcolm where Malcolm just launces into a tirade of largely inarticulate abuse. At least they are debating.

    What subject of great import to your fellow man would you like to engage occasional visitors such as myself pray?
    To be fair, it will end when I get back from holiday and work at 110mph again.

    This site is at its best when we discuss the betting, because it forces sober analysis and factual enlightenment.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,553
    edited August 2023
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Given all the crap boring buildings that are listed, why was the rather unusual, interesting, historic Crooked House not listed?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12384319/Historic-England-Britains-wonkiest-pub-listed-building-status-fire.html
    Newbury Park station bus shelter is Grade II listed:
    https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101081019-newbury-park-station-bus-shelter-aldborough-ward
    Er? Is that good or bad in your opinion? Looks a bit shitty on a rainy day with the wind blowing across it, like Slough bus station. BUT NOT WONKY
    No I like it. It even won an award in time for the 1951 Festival of Britain. I took this on a sunny day:
    image
    I was rather taken with the shape, and if you reckon it works well enough from your expert scrutiny, that's good enough for me!
    That has some appeal. If it works as a functional structure, then that's fine.

    Some listed WW2 aircraft hangers look worse ('worse' being in the eyes of the viewer).
    Newbury Park was supposed to have been inspired by the big airship hangars from the 1930s.
    Could well be.

    https://arquiscopio.com/archivo/2013/02/02/hangares-para-dirigibles-de-orly/?lang=en

    But I also wondered about this - U-boat bunkers.

    http://www.u-boote.fr/dom.htm

    THough structurally I think the airship jangars are the more likely model. So they win.
    I love the hangers at Cardington. They're brilliant, their bulk and sheer mass imposing themselves onto the local flattish landscape. But they're also ugly, in a way. Purely functional and utilitarian.

    This is the great thing about architecture - I love them, but I shouldn't. And yes, their history plays into that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardington_Airfield#/media/File:RAF-Cardington01-full.jpg

    (You don't get the scale on that photo until you see the car in the foreground.)
    Used to love seeing them in the days when I had a friend near there and we went to Old Warden once a year.
    the R101 isn't as remembered as much as it should be. The crash was almost slow motion (~2mph) and if it wasn't for the hydrogen they would have walked away.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxlV_GGU5YQ
    Careful - you’ll have the R101 revisionists jumping on you.

    R101 was a bad design. Actually manufactured with some considerable skill. But a fundamentally bad design.
    Ah, a narrative hook! Do tell.
    Well we start with Slide Rule. But then the revisionists tell you that Shute was prejudiced and a poor designer. See Peter Masefield.

    The problem is that the revisionists don't answer the actually questions about the design. The gasbag design failed. The rectification to that caused massive leaks (because of design details in the framework) and so on.

    The net result was a that an experimental aircraft, without a proper airworthiness certificate, set out on a trip round half the world. After having been chopped and stretched like a cheap limo. Overloaded. With a known problem of losing half a ton of lift - per hour. With an outer cover that was falling apart.
    I did not know that: thank you. :) And I do know who Nevil Shute was. I should know more than I do.
    Did you know Shute convinced RJ Mitchell that retractable undercarriage on aircraft was a good idea?

    image
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,617
    Carnyx said:

    AlistairM said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Given all the crap boring buildings that are listed, why was the rather unusual, interesting, historic Crooked House not listed?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12384319/Historic-England-Britains-wonkiest-pub-listed-building-status-fire.html
    Newbury Park station bus shelter is Grade II listed:
    https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101081019-newbury-park-station-bus-shelter-aldborough-ward
    Er? Is that good or bad in your opinion? Looks a bit shitty on a rainy day with the wind blowing across it, like Slough bus station. BUT NOT WONKY
    No I like it. It even won an award in time for the 1951 Festival of Britain. I took this on a sunny day:
    image
    Well, there are far worse bus stations.

    "Aylesbury bus station: Is it really 'one of the most depressing places on earth'?"
    https://www.buckinghamshirelive.com/news/buckinghamshire-news/gallery/aylesbury-bus-station-really-one-6058829

    Aw, shit. I haven't been there for 40 years and now you remind me. Urgh.
    But stations the world over manage to be hideous, most of the time, and quite often demonically depressing. Out of the ones I've visted recently:

    Athens Bus Station. OMG

    Chernivtsi, Ukraine, even worse

    Przhemsyl, Poland, UGH

    And so on. I have many more examples

    Why are they always SO much worse than train stations: would make for a good thesis by an aspiring urbanist/architect. Is it coz they get less money and attention, or is it something deeper and more intrinsic to buses?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,953

    I’ve found another woke cause for Leon et al.

    This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.

    https://twitter.com/philiphensher/status/1688885747275763712?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    It’s a form of insanity.

    I keep highlighting the insanity of the Woke mind virus, and being told it's a modern form of political correctness.

    It's not. It's a total obsession with making absolutely everything about identity politics, coupled with moral lectures to be imbibed on top, that are deeply contentious and divisive.
    The thing is, I find that link *funny*, as I believe it was meant to be. You find it 'woke'.

    I laugh at (and with) them. You get angry.
    The problem with woke is the underlying mentality that drives it.

    Woke often gets labelled as 'Puritan', the implication being that those who are woke are miserable, do-gooders who preach to everyone else.

    But what gets missed in that conversation is Puritanism wasn't a religion in itself, it was the English derivation of Calvinism.

    Calvinism's central doctrine was that it had already been predetermined whether you were saved or not. Your actions counted for nothing (the opposite of the Catholic view). While theoretically you did not know whether you had been chosen, it was taken as granted that you had been if you were a Calvinist / Puritan.

    That had two effects. One was the self-righteous bit. That is the part that everyone associates with woke. But there is a second, far nastier part that is you can do pretty much what you want because you have already been saved and so, whatever you do - however reprehensible in 'normal' terms - is by itself a 'good' act and justified. That was the thinking that underpinned, for example, the South African Dutch Reformed Church's support of Apartheid and racial discrimination for centuries up until the 1980s.

    It is also a line of thinking that has much in common with the ideas of Communism and Nazism, i.e. that it is fine to commit what may seem to many people 'evil' in the cause of the greater good.

    I'm not saying the wokesters (yet) will have their concentration camps out but, given their comments and general attitudes, you can see there the direction of travel.

    That is the main problem with woke.

    Hmmm. I'd argue that the 'anti-woke' are currently the ones nearest fascism and concentration camps.

    But yes, both sides go too far, especially in wanting there to be only one view. But the screeches of 'anti-woke' seem to be against *anything* that might mean change, or change from the 1950s. Which is why the screechers are so unable to actually define 'woke'. They're shaking their fists at any views they do not like.
    Which is, methinks, why right-wingers around the globe are so enamored with anti-Wokeism.

    Precisely because "Woke" can mean ANYTHING that one wants to think it means.

    Hence perfect for wack-job hack politicos and their hench-people here & across the web.
    It is very very clear what it means.

    Those who keep asking what it means are being entirely disingenuous and engaging in distraction tactics.

    It's like all those people who continually post "Who funds you?" under full-time campaigning types they don't like on Twitter, no matter how many times they answer it; it's an effort to undermine the conversation they want to have and discredit the messenger.
    woke definition - first result on Google
    "alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism"
    That's like saying gay means happy.

    It started that way. Doesn't mean that now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,135

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    Oh come on Nick, sometimes it can be entertaining. Watching CR and JJ battle it out is far more entertaining than my occasional spats with Malcolm where Malcolm just launces into a tirade of largely inarticulate abuse. At least they are debating.

    What subject of great import to your fellow man would you like to engage occasional visitors such as myself pray?
    To be fair, it will end when I get back from holiday and work at 110mph again.
    That sounds like the sort of thing Mr Drakeford would have Views on.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    I’ve found another woke cause for Leon et al.

    This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.

    https://twitter.com/philiphensher/status/1688885747275763712?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    It’s a form of insanity.

    I keep highlighting the insanity of the Woke mind virus, and being told it's a modern form of political correctness.

    It's not. It's a total obsession with making absolutely everything about identity politics, coupled with moral lectures to be imbibed on top, that are deeply contentious and divisive.
    The thing is, I find that link *funny*, as I believe it was meant to be. You find it 'woke'.

    I laugh at (and with) them. You get angry.
    The problem with woke is the underlying mentality that drives it.

    Woke often gets labelled as 'Puritan', the implication being that those who are woke are miserable, do-gooders who preach to everyone else.

    But what gets missed in that conversation is Puritanism wasn't a religion in itself, it was the English derivation of Calvinism.

    Calvinism's central doctrine was that it had already been predetermined whether you were saved or not. Your actions counted for nothing (the opposite of the Catholic view). While theoretically you did not know whether you had been chosen, it was taken as granted that you had been if you were a Calvinist / Puritan.

    That had two effects. One was the self-righteous bit. That is the part that everyone associates with woke. But there is a second, far nastier part that is you can do pretty much what you want because you have already been saved and so, whatever you do - however reprehensible in 'normal' terms - is by itself a 'good' act and justified. That was the thinking that underpinned, for example, the South African Dutch Reformed Church's support of Apartheid and racial discrimination for centuries up until the 1980s.

    It is also a line of thinking that has much in common with the ideas of Communism and Nazism, i.e. that it is fine to commit what may seem to many people 'evil' in the cause of the greater good.

    I'm not saying the wokesters (yet) will have their concentration camps out but, given their comments and general attitudes, you can see there the direction of travel.

    That is the main problem with woke.

    Hmmm. I'd argue that the 'anti-woke' are currently the ones nearest fascism and concentration camps.

    But yes, both sides go too far, especially in wanting there to be only one view. But the screeches of 'anti-woke' seem to be against *anything* that might mean change, or change from the 1950s. Which is why the screechers are so unable to actually define 'woke'. They're shaking their fists at any views they do not like.
    Which is, methinks, why right-wingers around the globe are so enamored with anti-Wokeism.

    Precisely because "Woke" can mean ANYTHING that one wants to think it means.

    Hence perfect for wack-job hack politicos and their hench-people here & across the web.
    It is very very clear what it means.

    Those who keep asking what it means are being entirely disingenuous and engaging in distraction tactics.

    It's like all those people who continually post "Who funds you?" under full-time campaigning types they don't like on Twitter, no matter how many times they answer it; it's an effort to undermine the conversation they want to have and discredit the messenger.
    woke definition - first result on Google
    "alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism"
    So if you were a publisher and Freddie Ayer came ro you with the manuscript of Language, Truth and Logic I imagine your reponse would be What's the point of a book about three words I can search for on Google? Bloody hell, mate, even in your day they had dictionaries to look this stuff up in.

    National: common to a whole nation

    Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    So that's national socialism sorted. Next?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I get bored with the spats about things that dont matter I admit and refresh and comment less
    Most things on here that are argued don't matter

    Discuss.
    sorry but its true, our democratic system has failed. It is not delivering for most people in this country. That is what we should be discussing not tinkering with things a little like introducing pr or an elected house of lords
    So, what would your ideal system of government look like?
    I will pm you it
    except I cant
    If you want my suggestion you will have to pm me and I can pm you back
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,443
    In other news, it's looking less and less likely that LK-99 is a room temp superconductor.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,310

    Leon said:

    I love sports cars, not SUVs, but you sort of get funneled into the pragmatics of them when you have 2 or 3 kids and live outside London.

    Yes, shock horror, some people do live outside London.

    They exist outside London. I'm not sure you could call it "living"
    You reside in Camden in a one bed flat don't you? I don't mean to be unkind, but I would call that "existing". People who live in London desperately want us to believe it is wonderful, and for those that live in a £5M property in South Ken it perhaps is, but even then you are still surrounded by a bustling mass of humanity all trying to climb over one another like so many termites.

    London is pleasant for a visit, particularly if you are a member of a club, or going to the theatre when staying at the Savoy, or even perhaps if one is visiting friends who are confined there. But living there permanently? This requires a constant delusional pretence that it is amazing, when in reality it is totally shite for 99% of its residents.
    I moved out of london for all these reasons for a decade or so and I held that view for about 9 years. But now I hoping to move back. Basically my conclusion is that London is where all the interesting stuff happens, all the energy and ambition is concentrated there.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,553
    Miklosvar said:

    I’ve found another woke cause for Leon et al.

    This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.

    https://twitter.com/philiphensher/status/1688885747275763712?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    It’s a form of insanity.

    I keep highlighting the insanity of the Woke mind virus, and being told it's a modern form of political correctness.

    It's not. It's a total obsession with making absolutely everything about identity politics, coupled with moral lectures to be imbibed on top, that are deeply contentious and divisive.
    The thing is, I find that link *funny*, as I believe it was meant to be. You find it 'woke'.

    I laugh at (and with) them. You get angry.
    The problem with woke is the underlying mentality that drives it.

    Woke often gets labelled as 'Puritan', the implication being that those who are woke are miserable, do-gooders who preach to everyone else.

    But what gets missed in that conversation is Puritanism wasn't a religion in itself, it was the English derivation of Calvinism.

    Calvinism's central doctrine was that it had already been predetermined whether you were saved or not. Your actions counted for nothing (the opposite of the Catholic view). While theoretically you did not know whether you had been chosen, it was taken as granted that you had been if you were a Calvinist / Puritan.

    That had two effects. One was the self-righteous bit. That is the part that everyone associates with woke. But there is a second, far nastier part that is you can do pretty much what you want because you have already been saved and so, whatever you do - however reprehensible in 'normal' terms - is by itself a 'good' act and justified. That was the thinking that underpinned, for example, the South African Dutch Reformed Church's support of Apartheid and racial discrimination for centuries up until the 1980s.

    It is also a line of thinking that has much in common with the ideas of Communism and Nazism, i.e. that it is fine to commit what may seem to many people 'evil' in the cause of the greater good.

    I'm not saying the wokesters (yet) will have their concentration camps out but, given their comments and general attitudes, you can see there the direction of travel.

    That is the main problem with woke.

    Hmmm. I'd argue that the 'anti-woke' are currently the ones nearest fascism and concentration camps.

    But yes, both sides go too far, especially in wanting there to be only one view. But the screeches of 'anti-woke' seem to be against *anything* that might mean change, or change from the 1950s. Which is why the screechers are so unable to actually define 'woke'. They're shaking their fists at any views they do not like.
    Which is, methinks, why right-wingers around the globe are so enamored with anti-Wokeism.

    Precisely because "Woke" can mean ANYTHING that one wants to think it means.

    Hence perfect for wack-job hack politicos and their hench-people here & across the web.
    It is very very clear what it means.

    Those who keep asking what it means are being entirely disingenuous and engaging in distraction tactics.

    It's like all those people who continually post "Who funds you?" under full-time campaigning types they don't like on Twitter, no matter how many times they answer it; it's an effort to undermine the conversation they want to have and discredit the messenger.
    woke definition - first result on Google
    "alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism"
    So if you were a publisher and Freddie Ayer came ro you with the manuscript of Language, Truth and Logic I imagine your reponse would be What's the point of a book about three words I can search for on Google? Bloody hell, mate, even in your day they had dictionaries to look this stuff up in.

    National: common to a whole nation

    Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    So that's national socialism sorted. Next?
    To be fair, that is what the actual National Socialists *thought* they meant.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I get bored with the spats about things that dont matter I admit and refresh and comment less
    Most things on here that are argued don't matter

    Discuss.
    sorry but its true, our democratic system has failed. It is not delivering for most people in this country. That is what we should be discussing not tinkering with things a little like introducing pr or an elected house of lords
    So, what would your ideal system of government look like?
    I will pm you it
    except I cant
    If you want my suggestion you will have to pm me and I can pm you back
    Posting just to me isn’t going to do you much good it is it? Post it on here. If it’s a decent idea you may get some supporters.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    AlistairM said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Given all the crap boring buildings that are listed, why was the rather unusual, interesting, historic Crooked House not listed?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12384319/Historic-England-Britains-wonkiest-pub-listed-building-status-fire.html
    Newbury Park station bus shelter is Grade II listed:
    https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101081019-newbury-park-station-bus-shelter-aldborough-ward
    Er? Is that good or bad in your opinion? Looks a bit shitty on a rainy day with the wind blowing across it, like Slough bus station. BUT NOT WONKY
    No I like it. It even won an award in time for the 1951 Festival of Britain. I took this on a sunny day:
    image
    Well, there are far worse bus stations.

    "Aylesbury bus station: Is it really 'one of the most depressing places on earth'?"
    https://www.buckinghamshirelive.com/news/buckinghamshire-news/gallery/aylesbury-bus-station-really-one-6058829

    Aw, shit. I haven't been there for 40 years and now you remind me. Urgh.
    But stations the world over manage to be hideous, most of the time, and quite often demonically depressing. Out of the ones I've visted recently:

    Athens Bus Station. OMG

    Chernivtsi, Ukraine, even worse

    Przhemsyl, Poland, UGH

    And so on. I have many more examples

    Why are they always SO much worse than train stations: would make for a good thesis by an aspiring urbanist/architect. Is it coz they get less money and attention, or is it something deeper and more intrinsic to buses?
    It is because buses are boring. If SKS were a mode of transport, he would be a bus.

    If Tony Blair or Margaret Thatcher were ways to travel the country they would be high speed trains, or high performance cars.

    Corbyn would be a rag and bone man's cart.
  • I’ve found another woke cause for Leon et al.

    This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.

    https://twitter.com/philiphensher/status/1688885747275763712?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    It’s a form of insanity.

    I keep highlighting the insanity of the Woke mind virus, and being told it's a modern form of political correctness.

    It's not. It's a total obsession with making absolutely everything about identity politics, coupled with moral lectures to be imbibed on top, that are deeply contentious and divisive.
    The thing is, I find that link *funny*, as I believe it was meant to be. You find it 'woke'.

    I laugh at (and with) them. You get angry.
    The problem with woke is the underlying mentality that drives it.

    Woke often gets labelled as 'Puritan', the implication being that those who are woke are miserable, do-gooders who preach to everyone else.

    But what gets missed in that conversation is Puritanism wasn't a religion in itself, it was the English derivation of Calvinism.

    Calvinism's central doctrine was that it had already been predetermined whether you were saved or not. Your actions counted for nothing (the opposite of the Catholic view). While theoretically you did not know whether you had been chosen, it was taken as granted that you had been if you were a Calvinist / Puritan.

    That had two effects. One was the self-righteous bit. That is the part that everyone associates with woke. But there is a second, far nastier part that is you can do pretty much what you want because you have already been saved and so, whatever you do - however reprehensible in 'normal' terms - is by itself a 'good' act and justified. That was the thinking that underpinned, for example, the South African Dutch Reformed Church's support of Apartheid and racial discrimination for centuries up until the 1980s.

    It is also a line of thinking that has much in common with the ideas of Communism and Nazism, i.e. that it is fine to commit what may seem to many people 'evil' in the cause of the greater good.

    I'm not saying the wokesters (yet) will have their concentration camps out but, given their comments and general attitudes, you can see there the direction of travel.

    That is the main problem with woke.

    Hmmm. I'd argue that the 'anti-woke' are currently the ones nearest fascism and concentration camps.

    But yes, both sides go too far, especially in wanting there to be only one view. But the screeches of 'anti-woke' seem to be against *anything* that might mean change, or change from the 1950s. Which is why the screechers are so unable to actually define 'woke'. They're shaking their fists at any views they do not like.
    Agreed, both sides go to far and, yes, the extreme on both sides are very similar, hence the 'horseshoe' effect.

    I'd argue - and I'm sure there will be disagreements - there are probably two differences. First, is the individual aspects. Most conservatives still take the view that the individual matters more than the 'good of the people'. That does not stop extreme types trying to get compulsory poppy wearing etc but it does mean they lose a fair share of possible supporters who take the view individuals should be free to do / think what they want. I find (and maybe my fault) a lot of left-thinking can be 'groupthink' on certain topics...

    Secondly, I think the extreme left has taken the lessons from successful revolutions more closely to heart than those on the extreme right namely you need a zealous minority, an apathetic majority and a weak Government. Maybe of the Right's extremist views are in your face, the Left's have been more subtle and (up to now) a march through the institutions a la Grasci.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I get bored with the spats about things that dont matter I admit and refresh and comment less
    Most things on here that are argued don't matter

    Discuss.
    sorry but its true, our democratic system has failed. It is not delivering for most people in this country. That is what we should be discussing not tinkering with things a little like introducing pr or an elected house of lords
    So, what would your ideal system of government look like?
    I will pm you it
    except I cant
    If you want my suggestion you will have to pm me and I can pm you back
    Posting just to me isn’t going to do you much good it is it? Post it on here. If it’s a decent idea you may get some supporters.
    I posted a header on it a while back was just going to link it for you was all
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,617
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I love sports cars, not SUVs, but you sort of get funneled into the pragmatics of them when you have 2 or 3 kids and live outside London.

    Yes, shock horror, some people do live outside London.

    They exist outside London. I'm not sure you could call it "living"
    You reside in Camden in a one bed flat don't you? I don't mean to be unkind, but I would call that "existing". People who live in London desperately want us to believe it is wonderful, and for those that live in a £5M property in South Ken it perhaps is, but even then you are still surrounded by a bustling mass of humanity all trying to climb over one another like so many termites.

    London is pleasant for a visit, particularly if you are a member of a club, or going to the theatre when staying at the Savoy, or even perhaps if one is visiting friends who are confined there. But living there permanently? This requires a constant delusional pretence that it is amazing, when in reality it is totally shite for 99% of its residents.
    I moved out of london for all these reasons for a decade or so and I held that view for about 9 years. But now I hoping to move back. Basically my conclusion is that London is where all the interesting stuff happens, all the energy and ambition is concentrated there.
    I have friends in the same boat. Moved out of London, entirely disenchanted, after about 10-15 years they suddenly decide they miss the buzz and now they want to come back

    Kids growing up is a factor. When they move out life in the sticks is often less enticing


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,443
    Ohio’s Abortion Ban Is Rekindling a Century-Old Battle Over Direct Democracy

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/08/08/ohio-ballot-republicans-00110169
    Today, voters in Ohio will go to the polls to deliberate on a change to the state’s referendum law. Backed by prominent Republicans and their patrons in the business community — particularly, the Ohio Chamber of Commerce — the initiative would raise the bar required to secure amendments to the state constitution. Since 1912, when Ohio joined other states in adopting the referendum system, voters have been able to bypass the state Legislature and amend the constitution by a simple majority. The new measure would require 60 percent support.

    It’s little mystery why Ohio Republicans snuck a late initiative onto the ballot, just months after the GOP-dominated Legislature passed a law banning August referenda at the local level, on the reasonable grounds that voter participation rates are lower during the dog days of summer. In 2019, the heavily gerrymandered Legislature passed a deeply unpopular bill prohibiting abortions after six weeks of pregnancy — before many women know they are pregnant — without exceptions for rape or incest. The law is currently on hold, pending judicial review. In response, reproductive rights advocates secured enough petition signatures to put a referendum before the voters this November; if it passes, abortion rights will be enshrined in the Constitution, beyond the Legislature’s ability to meddle.

    Given current polling, Republicans are expected to lose the November vote, so they’re trying to change the rules mid-game. The gambit is so transparent that even two former GOP governors, Robert Taft and John Kasich, have come out in opposition...


    The history behind this is interesting.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I get bored with the spats about things that dont matter I admit and refresh and comment less
    Most things on here that are argued don't matter

    Discuss.
    sorry but its true, our democratic system has failed. It is not delivering for most people in this country. That is what we should be discussing not tinkering with things a little like introducing pr or an elected house of lords
    So, what would your ideal system of government look like?
    I will pm you it
    except I cant
    If you want my suggestion you will have to pm me and I can pm you back
    Posting just to me isn’t going to do you much good it is it? Post it on here. If it’s a decent idea you may get some supporters.
    I posted a header on it a while back was just going to link it for you was all
    Ah! Apologies. I will look it up.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    edited August 2023
    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I get bored with the spats about things that dont matter I admit and refresh and comment less
    Most things on here that are argued don't matter

    Discuss.
    sorry but its true, our democratic system has failed. It is not delivering for most people in this country. That is what we should be discussing not tinkering with things a little like introducing pr or an elected house of lords
    So, what would your ideal system of government look like?
    I will pm you it
    except I cant
    If you want my suggestion you will have to pm me and I can pm you back
    Posting just to me isn’t going to do you much good it is it? Post it on here. If it’s a decent idea you may get some supporters.
    I posted a header on it a while back was just going to link it for you was all
    Ah! Apologies. I will look it up.
    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/02/04/a-suggestion-on-political-reform/

    was trying to avoid spamming it was all
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,150
    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I love sports cars, not SUVs, but you sort of get funneled into the pragmatics of them when you have 2 or 3 kids and live outside London.

    Yes, shock horror, some people do live outside London.

    They exist outside London. I'm not sure you could call it "living"
    You reside in Camden in a one bed flat don't you? I don't mean to be unkind, but I would call that "existing". People who live in London desperately want us to believe it is wonderful, and for those that live in a £5M property in South Ken it perhaps is, but even then you are still surrounded by a bustling mass of humanity all trying to climb over one another like so many termites.

    London is pleasant for a visit, particularly if you are a member of a club, or going to the theatre when staying at the Savoy, or even perhaps if one is visiting friends who are confined there. But living there permanently? This requires a constant delusional pretence that it is amazing, when in reality it is totally shite for 99% of its residents.
    I moved out of london for all these reasons for a decade or so and I held that view for about 9 years. But now I hoping to move back. Basically my conclusion is that London is where all the interesting stuff happens, all the energy and ambition is concentrated there.
    I have friends in the same boat. Moved out of London, entirely disenchanted, after about 10-15 years they suddenly decide they miss the buzz and now they want to come back

    Kids growing up is a factor. When they move out life in the sticks is often less enticing


    I think it is also hugely variable depending on where you are (obv). I know people who go about how great it is in London when in reality they are just inside the conurbation and could be any old shitty 1930s suburbia in any number of cities in the UK.

    As I say, the real bit is great to visit, great to leave. I will be going tomorrow and will enjoy it tremendously.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    Love the sound of a grandfather clock, particularly if it has Westminster chimes.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I get bored with the spats about things that dont matter I admit and refresh and comment less
    Most things on here that are argued don't matter

    Discuss.
    sorry but its true, our democratic system has failed. It is not delivering for most people in this country. That is what we should be discussing not tinkering with things a little like introducing pr or an elected house of lords
    So, what would your ideal system of government look like?
    I will pm you it
    except I cant
    If you want my suggestion you will have to pm me and I can pm you back
    Posting just to me isn’t going to do you much good it is it? Post it on here. If it’s a decent idea you may get some supporters.
    I posted a header on it a while back was just going to link it for you was all
    Ah! Apologies. I will look it up.
    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/02/04/a-suggestion-on-political-reform/

    was trying to avoid spamming it was all
    Gotcha. Thanks. Will have a read. Don’t know how I missed this. Was having a break I guess.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,688
    .

    A couple more thoughts on the proposal to develop desecrate the Yorkshire Dales… giving free rein to developers to create holiday homes or retirement homes for wealthy outsiders will help neither Julian Smith nor the Conservatives on NYCC to keep their seats… having said that, it will further enrich the landowners that are the bedrock of the Tories in this part of the world…

    Indeed.

    We must keep the countryside exactly as it was. While demanding that immigration runs at a chunk of a percent per year.

    The obvious answer is to ship the more problematic excess population overseas. A clearance, as it were.
    You’re right, let’s allow every field barn in the Dales to be converted and that’ll absorb the Tory’s current level of net immigration for all of about three hours…
    Your alternative being a Japanese immigration policy?
    Whatever the merits of either, there’s a lot of room in between.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,135
    edited August 2023
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I get bored with the spats about things that dont matter I admit and refresh and comment less
    Most things on here that are argued don't matter

    Discuss.
    sorry but its true, our democratic system has failed. It is not delivering for most people in this country. That is what we should be discussing not tinkering with things a little like introducing pr or an elected house of lords
    So, what would your ideal system of government look like?
    I will pm you it
    except I cant
    If you want my suggestion you will have to pm me and I can pm you back
    Posting just to me isn’t going to do you much good it is it? Post it on here. If it’s a decent idea you may get some supporters.
    I posted a header on it a while back was just going to link it for you was all
    Ah! Apologies. I will look it up.
    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/02/04/a-suggestion-on-political-reform/

    was trying to avoid spamming it was all
    Gotcha. Thanks. Will have a read. Don’t know how I missed this. Was having a break I guess.
    shrugs I got asked what I would want instead and people urged me to post it. Most focussed on article 6 which is I admit controversial but would be happy with just the first 5
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,135

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,135

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
    It's hour favourite pastime on here.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
    As ideas go, it's certainly not cuckoo.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,449
    edited August 2023
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I love sports cars, not SUVs, but you sort of get funneled into the pragmatics of them when you have 2 or 3 kids and live outside London.

    Yes, shock horror, some people do live outside London.

    They exist outside London. I'm not sure you could call it "living"
    You reside in Camden in a one bed flat don't you? I don't mean to be unkind, but I would call that "existing". People who live in London desperately want us to believe it is wonderful, and for those that live in a £5M property in South Ken it perhaps is, but even then you are still surrounded by a bustling mass of humanity all trying to climb over one another like so many termites.

    London is pleasant for a visit, particularly if you are a member of a club, or going to the theatre when staying at the Savoy, or even perhaps if one is visiting friends who are confined there. But living there permanently? This requires a constant delusional pretence that it is amazing, when in reality it is totally shite for 99% of its residents.
    I moved out of london for all these reasons for a decade or so and I held that view for about 9 years. But now I hoping to move back. Basically my conclusion is that London is where all the interesting stuff happens, all the energy and ambition is concentrated there.
    I have friends in the same boat. Moved out of London, entirely disenchanted, after about 10-15 years they suddenly decide they miss the buzz and now they want to come back

    Kids growing up is a factor. When they move out life in the sticks is often less enticing


    I am not planning to retire yet, but when I do, I may well downsize and get a flat in London too. I wouldn't want to live there full time again, as I do like having a bit of space and fresh air, but would find plenty to do in the winter in the Smoke*.

    Living in London is great when you have lots of free time, and a fair amount of dosh. I enjoyed it as a student, and would as a wealthy sixty something. Pretty miserable working, commuting and having children there though.

    *and obsolete moniker now thanks to ULEZ 😃
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
    It's hour favourite pastime on here.
    I have to HAND it to you
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,135

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
    It's hour favourite pastime on here.
    I have to HAND it to you
    You will have to weight to do that.
  • ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    You hardly ever see furniture on Antiques Roadshow anymore, although small clocks and especially watches are still common.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,617
    edited August 2023
    Slam DUNK

    The Crooked House culprits (allegedly) are unmasked


    "There is a mystery surrounding the fire and subsequent demolition of the pub just two weeks after it was sold to a private company.

    The Guardian has learned that the new buyer was a property firm called ATE Farms Ltd, owned by Carly Taylor, 34, a director of multiple companies.

    ATE Farms is registered to the same address as Himley Environmental Ltd, which runs the 15-hectare quarry and landfill site next to the pub. The Guardian was unable to reach ATE Farms Ltd for comment"


    So that's why they bought it, that's why they were able to block the road to firemen, that's why they had a JCB ready to go in an illegally tear it all down, within hours of the fire service departing


    This does not need Sherlock Holmes

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/08/you-will-be-missed-locals-seek-answers-about-destruction-of-crooked-house-pub
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
    As ideas go, it's certainly not cuckoo.
    I prefer larger clocks. The Swiss ones are so minute
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,135

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
    As ideas go, it's certainly not cuckoo.
    I prefer larger clocks. The Swiss ones are so minute
    That's worrying. These puns will be getting really bad if we don't watch them.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,953
    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    I had an original book on the Indian Empire (dated 1862) repaired and rebound by a book specialist in new leather and gold print about 6 months ago, with beautiful colour maps inside it.

    It's a pretty special and unique antique piece of information. Hard to read, though. Turgid and heavy-going, but they wrote differently back then.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
    It's hour favourite pastime on here.
    I have to HAND it to you
    You will have to weight to do that.
    Perhaps when I finish my current second-ment
  • Tuesday, August 8 = Very Special Election Day in Ohio

    AP - Fall abortion battle propels huge early voter turnout for an Ohio special election . . .

    (Aug 5) - A hastily called summer special election over a Republican-pushed measure that would make it harder for Ohio voters to pass future constitutional amendments, including one on the November ballot to guarantee abortion rights, has driven off-the-charts early turnout before Tuesday’s final day of voting. . . .

    Issue 1, the question before Ohio voters on Tuesday, was placed on the ballot this spring by the Republican-controlled Legislature. The measure does not specifically deal with abortion. Instead, it would erect several hurdles for voters to pass amendments to the state constitution, including raising the threshold to pass an amendment from a simple majority to 60%.

    But if Issue 1 passes, it could be fatal to an amendment seeking to ensure the constitutional right to abortion that already is on the November ballot. In the 2022 midterm elections, AP VoteCast found that 59% of Ohio voters said abortion should be legal in most or all cases, just shy of that 60% mark.

    Calling a special election in the middle of summer vacation season was seen by some as a cynical move because Republicans had just eliminated August elections with legislation signed into law only recently — specifically because those elections have historically generated such low turnout.

    Not this time.

    As of Wednesday, more than 533,000 people had voted by mail or in-person since early voting began July 11, according to data collected by The Associated Press. That’s nearly double the final early voting figures for Ohio’s two previous midterm primary elections, which included races for governor and Congress. In the May 2022 primary, for example, 288,700 people voted early, according to AP data. . . .

    Voters do not register by political party in Ohio, but data from L2, a political firm that tracks early in-person and mail voting, indicates that Democratic-leaning voters are turning out in higher numbers than Republican-leaning ones.

    As of Tuesday . . . Democrats had cast more than 52% of ballots, compared with 40% by voters identified as Republicans. Independents cast the remaining ballots, according to the firm, which models party affiliation . . .

    So far, women are turning out in higher numbers than men, according to L2. . . .

    The voter motivation seen so far in Ohio is similar to what Kansas experienced a year ago, when it was the first state where voters weighed in on abortion rights since the Supreme Court ruling overturning Roe. [Kansas voters rejected state abortion ban measure.] . . . .

    In the first week of early voting, Franklin County’s early polling place processed more than 1,500 voters a day. Since then, the number has more than doubled . . . .

    https://apnews.com/article/abortion-ohio-constitutional-amendments-voters-turnout-election-65381bfc596ab5e34c830f67cef05fc2
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
    As ideas go, it's certainly not cuckoo.
    I prefer larger clocks. The Swiss ones are so minute
    That's worrying. These puns will be getting really bad if we don't watch them.
    Don't try and fob me off with that
  • Leon said:

    Slam DUNK

    The Crooked House culprits (allegedly) are unmasked


    "There is a mystery surrounding the fire and subsequent demolition of the pub just two weeks after it was sold to a private company.

    The Guardian has learned that the new buyer was a property firm called ATE Farms Ltd, owned by Carly Taylor, 34, a director of multiple companies.

    ATE Farms is registered to the same address as Himley Environmental Ltd, which runs the 15-hectare quarry and landfill site next to the pub. The Guardian was unable to reach ATE Farms Ltd for comment"


    So that's why they bought it, that's why they were able to block the road to fireman, that's why they had a JCB ready to go in an illegally tear it all down, within hours of the fire service departing


    This does not need Sherlock Holmes

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/08/you-will-be-missed-locals-seek-answers-about-destruction-of-crooked-house-pub

    Landfill?

    Land FILL?

    LAND Fill???
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,135

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
    As ideas go, it's certainly not cuckoo.
    I prefer larger clocks. The Swiss ones are so minute
    That's worrying. These puns will be getting really bad if we don't watch them.
    Don't try and fob me off with that
    I was just extending your chain of reasoning.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,135
    Anyway, the gym beckons. Have fun.
  • ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    From the first sentence and considering who posted this, I was waiting for the punch line here.

    Sounds really nice, love ancient grandfather clocks, even if they're not fashionable, they are impressive and I hope it can be preserved.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    I think you might be winding us up
    You can strike that off.
    I thought the idea of a few puns might chime well with you
    As ideas go, it's certainly not cuckoo.
    I prefer larger clocks. The Swiss ones are so minute
    That's worrying. These puns will be getting really bad if we don't watch them.
    Don't try and fob me off with that
    I was just extending your chain of reasoning.
    That might be true on the face of it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,218
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, the gym beckons. Have fun.

    I'm glad you're leaving before someone gets their clock out.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,168
    Miklosvar said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    Conversation expands to fill the time available. Silly season, no cricket, GE 15 months away. But not so many sleeps till 1/15/2024 and the Iowa caucuses
    I’m on holiday so far less time to read and post that’s when at work…
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,553
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Given all the crap boring buildings that are listed, why was the rather unusual, interesting, historic Crooked House not listed?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12384319/Historic-England-Britains-wonkiest-pub-listed-building-status-fire.html
    Newbury Park station bus shelter is Grade II listed:
    https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101081019-newbury-park-station-bus-shelter-aldborough-ward
    Er? Is that good or bad in your opinion? Looks a bit shitty on a rainy day with the wind blowing across it, like Slough bus station. BUT NOT WONKY
    No I like it. It even won an award in time for the 1951 Festival of Britain. I took this on a sunny day:
    image
    I was rather taken with the shape, and if you reckon it works well enough from your expert scrutiny, that's good enough for me!
    That has some appeal. If it works as a functional structure, then that's fine.

    Some listed WW2 aircraft hangers look worse ('worse' being in the eyes of the viewer).
    Newbury Park was supposed to have been inspired by the big airship hangars from the 1930s.
    Could well be.

    https://arquiscopio.com/archivo/2013/02/02/hangares-para-dirigibles-de-orly/?lang=en

    But I also wondered about this - U-boat bunkers.

    http://www.u-boote.fr/dom.htm

    THough structurally I think the airship jangars are the more likely model. So they win.
    I love the hangers at Cardington. They're brilliant, their bulk and sheer mass imposing themselves onto the local flattish landscape. But they're also ugly, in a way. Purely functional and utilitarian.

    This is the great thing about architecture - I love them, but I shouldn't. And yes, their history plays into that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardington_Airfield#/media/File:RAF-Cardington01-full.jpg

    (You don't get the scale on that photo until you see the car in the foreground.)
    Used to love seeing them in the days when I had a friend near there and we went to Old Warden once a year.
    the R101 isn't as remembered as much as it should be. The crash was almost slow motion (~2mph) and if it wasn't for the hydrogen they would have walked away.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxlV_GGU5YQ
    Careful - you’ll have the R101 revisionists jumping on you.

    R101 was a bad design. Actually manufactured with some considerable skill. But a fundamentally bad design.
    Ah, a narrative hook! Do tell.
    Well we start with Slide Rule. But then the revisionists tell you that Shute was prejudiced and a poor designer. See Peter Masefield.

    The problem is that the revisionists don't answer the actually questions about the design. The gasbag design failed. The rectification to that caused massive leaks (because of design details in the framework) and so on.

    The net result was a that an experimental aircraft, without a proper airworthiness certificate, set out on a trip round half the world. After having been chopped and stretched like a cheap limo. Overloaded. With a known problem of losing half a ton of lift - per hour. With an outer cover that was falling apart.
    Difficult for anyone to argue with Shute's comment on the airworthiness certificate, whatever one thinks of the rest of his account:

    'After all other safety procedures had been abandoned, a piece of paper could not prevent R101 from taking off. So a certificate of airworthiness was written out at the Air Ministry and handed to the captain just prior to departure. It stands to the great credit of the French government that after this disaster on French they did not make an issue of this: between friends, some things are better forgotten.'
    Yes.

    The certificate of airworthiness was supposed to signify that a competent engineer had certified the airship airworthy.

    Not having one signified what, children?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,695
    edited August 2023

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election. So you can expect 6-18 months of it :smiley: .

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision. But that's back to traffic.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers? Does anyone want to walk the Pennine Way and report back? Or propose Miscarriage of Justice Reforms? Or Leon to review handmade chocolates?
  • More from the great Buckeye State . . .

    Columbus Dispatch - High turnout, long lines: A look at Ohio's last weekend of early voting on Issue 1

    Saturday and Sunday were the last days to vote early in-person on Issue 1 and turnout was high across Ohio with lines stretching around buildings in some counties.

    While many projected low turnout for the Aug. 8 election on Issue 1, Ohio voters have headed to the polls at incredible rates over the past few weeks, according to election officials. For the first time, Ohio no longer allows early in-person voting on the Monday before election day. . . .

    Ohioans will decide Tuesday whether it should be harder to change the state constitution. If passed, Issue 1 would require 60% of the vote to enact new constitutional amendments, instead of a simple majority of 50% plus one. It also would:

    > Require citizens who want to place an amendment on the ballot to collect signatures from at least 5% of voters from the last gubernatorial election in all 88 counties, instead of the current 44.

    > Eliminate a 10-day cure period that allows citizens to replace any signatures deemed faulty by the secretary of state's office.

    Issue 1 needs a simple majority to pass. If approved, the 60% threshold would take effect right away, and changes to signature gathering would be in place starting Jan. 1. . . .

    The potential ramifications of the Aug. 8 vote for reproductive rights has driven high campaign spending on both sides of Issue 1, urging voters to get out to the polls early. . . .

    A busy weekend at the polls

    Ohio is among a handful of states that allow early voting on the weekend before election day. With many voters off of work over the weekend, officials expected the polls to be packed, and Ohioans didn't disappoint.

    Rural counties with smaller populations saw shorter lines to vote on Saturday and Sunday. Yet in Ohio's larger counties, lines stretched out the door as voters waited in 90-degree heat to cast their ballot. At the Franklin County Board of Elections in Columbus, the line nearly wrapped around the entire building . . . some waited in hours-long lines on Sunday to cast their ballot.

    In Franklin County alone . . . over 46,000 people in total voted early in-person, and nearly 30,000 requested absentee ballots. With early votes alone, Franklin County has already seen more votes cast for the Aug. 8 election than they did in last August's primary election for state House and Senate races . . . .

    [Of 46,000 early in-person votes cast in Franklin C] 25,000 came from Democrats, with another 16,000 coming from Independents. Yet uncertainty remains for election day itself. . . .

    Tuesday's polls open at 6:30 a.m. and close at 7:30 p.m.

    https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/elections/state/2023/08/07/issue-1-early-voting-closes-in-ohio-bringing-high-turnout-ahead-of-aug-8/70512342007/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,269
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    AlistairM said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Given all the crap boring buildings that are listed, why was the rather unusual, interesting, historic Crooked House not listed?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12384319/Historic-England-Britains-wonkiest-pub-listed-building-status-fire.html
    Newbury Park station bus shelter is Grade II listed:
    https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101081019-newbury-park-station-bus-shelter-aldborough-ward
    Er? Is that good or bad in your opinion? Looks a bit shitty on a rainy day with the wind blowing across it, like Slough bus station. BUT NOT WONKY
    No I like it. It even won an award in time for the 1951 Festival of Britain. I took this on a sunny day:
    image
    Well, there are far worse bus stations.

    "Aylesbury bus station: Is it really 'one of the most depressing places on earth'?"
    https://www.buckinghamshirelive.com/news/buckinghamshire-news/gallery/aylesbury-bus-station-really-one-6058829

    Aw, shit. I haven't been there for 40 years and now you remind me. Urgh.
    But stations the world over manage to be hideous, most of the time, and quite often demonically depressing. Out of the ones I've visted recently:

    Athens Bus Station. OMG

    Chernivtsi, Ukraine, even worse

    Przhemsyl, Poland, UGH

    And so on. I have many more examples

    Why are they always SO much worse than train stations: would make for a good thesis by an aspiring urbanist/architect. Is it coz they get less money and attention, or is it something deeper and more intrinsic to buses?
    I was in Warsaw a few days ago, that’s grim too.

    Outside of a war situation, I’d say that they are what they are because they’re inhabited by people who are taking the bus.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,617

    Leon said:

    Slam DUNK

    The Crooked House culprits (allegedly) are unmasked


    "There is a mystery surrounding the fire and subsequent demolition of the pub just two weeks after it was sold to a private company.

    The Guardian has learned that the new buyer was a property firm called ATE Farms Ltd, owned by Carly Taylor, 34, a director of multiple companies.

    ATE Farms is registered to the same address as Himley Environmental Ltd, which runs the 15-hectare quarry and landfill site next to the pub. The Guardian was unable to reach ATE Farms Ltd for comment"


    So that's why they bought it, that's why they were able to block the road to fireman, that's why they had a JCB ready to go in an illegally tear it all down, within hours of the fire service departing


    This does not need Sherlock Holmes

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/08/you-will-be-missed-locals-seek-answers-about-destruction-of-crooked-house-pub

    Landfill?

    Land FILL?

    LAND Fill???
    More from the Times

    "The new owners of Britain’s wonkiest pub face questions by police after it burnt down and was then demolished without permission within weeks of them buying it.

    Carly Taylor, 34, and her husband Adam, 44, will be contacted by officers investigating the destruction of The Crooked House in Himley, Staffordshire, in a fire on Saturday."


    "Liam Hilton of Staffordshire fire service said on Monday that attempts to extinguish the fire on Saturday were hampered by “mounds of mud and soil placed in the centre of the road”.

    The Taylors did not respond to requests to comment on the destruction of the pub, which was sold by Marston’s Brewery in July to ATE Farms Limited, a company controlled by Mrs Taylor. It had been listed for sale for £675,000.

    She and her husband are current and former directors of 18 companies that are involved in activities including land development and waste management. He is a former director of Himley Environmental, which owns a landfill site adjacent to the pub."


    Hmm..


    "Lnd devleopment, waste management and a landfull site adjacent to the pub" What could they possibly gain from this pub they bought suddenly and mysteriously burning down, then being entirely demolished before police can investigate the cause?
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,189
    Unless there is a dramatic change in the polls then yes Sunak will try and put off a general election as long as possible as Callaghan, Major and Brown did to stay PM as long as he can for the record books
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    AIUI there’s multiple charges. They may find some of them easier than others to determine.
  • Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    There are numerous counts on which she has been charged. Some I suspect are more straightforward than others, and they will not be able to return a verdict until there is agreement on all of them.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    DougSeal said:

    Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    AIUI there’s multiple charges. They may find some of them easier than others to determine.
    Did I answer your question now?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,269
    Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    The Lucy Letby trial has been running since October last year, 15 days of deliberations is not unusual in such circumstances.

    Surprisingly, there’s been relatively little mainstream media coverage of it, given the horrific nature of the alleged crimes.

    For those who don’t know, she was a neonatal nurse and is accused of seven murders and 10 attempted murders.
  • HYUFD said:

    Unless there is a dramatic change in the polls then yes Sunak will try and put off a general election as long as possible as Callaghan, Major and Brown did to stay PM as long as he can for the record books

    Yup, barring a miracle, this Conservative government is a piece of bread that has got stuck in the Dualit.

    So does Sunak go as late as possible (January '25) or as late as sensible (October '24; anything later than that will just annoy people)?

    And what the hell does he do in the meantime? Hope for economic recovery, obvs, but what does he actually do with his Commons majority?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,189
    Sir Gavin Williamson seeks to establish the facts as to why the Crooked House burnt down
    https://twitter.com/GavinWilliamson/status/1688901018984013824?s=20
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,269
    If anyone thinks that the British press go hard on the England football team when they lose, look at the reaction in the States to their women’s team being knocked out of the competition. It doesn’t help that the team themselves have been very political in recent years, and have been refusing to sing the national anthem at this tournament because they think they’re wearing the shirt of a racist and homophobic hellhole.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,150
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've just taken a 200+ year old grandfather clock in for repairs.

    Apparently despite being disassembled and not looked after properly for the last 15 years it's still in reasonable nick and it should be possible to get it going again.

    It isn't worth a lot, due to them being right out of fashion, but it is rather beautiful and I hope it can be preserved.

    Fascinating. I find stuff like that really really interesting. I love engineering and how things are made.

    Presumably although t disassembled you have all of the parts for it or will it be like Repair Shop and you end up making some bits.
    It seems to be mechanically complete and of all the casework only one small piece - a decorative eagle that crowned the case - is missing (and has been in all the years I've known it).

    It's presenting us with a bit of a puzzle. The case, much of it, appears to be early 19th century. And the firm that built it existed from about 1790 onwards. But the back of the case has a note dating it to 1737, plus the weights are of lead, when they would normally have been of cast iron in that period. So I'm wondering if it isn't a late Georgian/Wilhelmine rebuild incorporating parts of an even earlier clock.

    Edit - this is a very similar clock, albeit mine the decoration of the face is very slightly different. The essential design is the same.

    https://www.laurelbankantiques.co.uk/product/antique-longcase-grandfather-clock-by-hollywell-son-of-derby-ref1672/
    That’s beautiful.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    DougSeal said:

    Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    AIUI there’s multiple charges. They may find some of them easier than others to determine.
    Maybe I am just irresponsible but if it was me I'd be thinking, fuck it, just one guilty verdict vs all of them has the same result, and if there was unanimity about one I'd concede on the others just to be able to go home.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,269

    HYUFD said:

    Unless there is a dramatic change in the polls then yes Sunak will try and put off a general election as long as possible as Callaghan, Major and Brown did to stay PM as long as he can for the record books

    Yup, barring a miracle, this Conservative government is a piece of bread that has got stuck in the Dualit.

    So does Sunak go as late as possible (January '25) or as late as sensible (October '24; anything later than that will just annoy people)?

    And what the hell does he do in the meantime? Hope for economic recovery, obvs, but what does he actually do with his Commons majority?
    If he’s resigned to losing, then he could redeem his reputation enormously by getting started on the “too-difficult list”, much of which has been extant for decades now. Planning, housing, social care, to name but three.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,189
    Leon said:

    What this site needs is for Donald Trump to take a big clear lead over Biden, as the 24 election gets closer

    That would spark things up

    It would be terrible for the world, probably, but fun for us

    Even then polls show even half of Republicans wouldn't vote for Trump if he is convicted and jailed and at least 1 court verdict is likely before the November general election even if he wins the GOP nomination again
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,189
    Sandpit said:

    Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    The Lucy Letby trial has been running since October last year, 15 days of deliberations is not unusual in such circumstances.

    Surprisingly, there’s been relatively little mainstream media coverage of it, given the horrific nature of the alleged crimes.

    For those who don’t know, she was a neonatal nurse and is accused of seven murders and 10 attempted murders.
    It has been covered but will be leading story once the verdict is in for a day or 2 I am sure
  • Polls close in five hours for August 8, 2023 Very Special Election in State of Ohio

    Returns should begin flowing in fairly quickly, as there is just one thing on the balllot: Issue 1.

    My own fearless prediction, that this effort by Republicans to impose a super-majority and other new hurdles for amending state constitution, will be a rather spectacular flop. Despite further efforts to suppress voter turnout, for example cancelling early voting on Monday, yesterday, on the eve of special election.

    In other words, Buckeye's will vote NO in today's election.

    Setting the stage for a statewide YES vote this November in favor of making Roe v Wade and the right to abortion, part the Ohio state constitution.

    With obvious ramifications for 2024 voters, candidates . . . and punters.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,180
    Miklosvar said:

    I’ve found another woke cause for Leon et al.

    This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.

    https://twitter.com/philiphensher/status/1688885747275763712?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    It’s a form of insanity.

    I keep highlighting the insanity of the Woke mind virus, and being told it's a modern form of political correctness.

    It's not. It's a total obsession with making absolutely everything about identity politics, coupled with moral lectures to be imbibed on top, that are deeply contentious and divisive.
    The thing is, I find that link *funny*, as I believe it was meant to be. You find it 'woke'.

    I laugh at (and with) them. You get angry.
    No, that's all in your head. I just vociferously oppose it.

    You get far more angry when this subject comes up than I do.
    "You get far more angry when this subject"

    ???

    No. I just laugh at idiots who use terms like "Woke mind virus". Because they cannot accept people can have other views.
    Can you not recognise that the Mary Rose thing was really rather silly though? I am not obsessed by so-called wokeness, but I found it was so absurd that it seemed like a parody or even an April Fools, even though it seems it is neither.
    Yes, I did think it was silly. Which was why I said: "The thing is, I find that link *funny*"
    I get that, but is it harmless? As with so many things commentary on the extreme devalues debate. That said though, do you not think concocting a load of old tosh with no basis in historical fact debases understanding? It would not be impossible for someone reading that nonsense to assume that same sex sexual activity was rife on the Mary Rose and had been historically proven? If it was like a floating gay sauna, then good on them, I hope they had fun before it sank, but there really is no evidence. It is misleading twaddle (that is also a patronising insult to gay people) and should be called out as such.
    Yes, it is harmless.

    I'd also argue that it highlights other interesting issues: objects can have different uses; people can perceive the usefulness of objects differently, and historians and archaeologists can get things very wrong.

    "...same sex sexual activity was rife on the Mary Rose"

    What makes you think that homosexuality is a modern thing?
    So, what, Philip Hensher is getting worked up about nothing? Because he is just a highly intelligent gay historian, and you are, what, whatever you are.

    You plainly think something can be both "a patronising insult to gay people" and "harmless" all at once.
    Below, I asked you to post to what Philip Hensher says so I can evaluate it for myself. As it happens, I have no idea who Philip Hensher is, and as it seems he's important to this debate, it'd be good to know.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Miklosvar said:

    DougSeal said:

    Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    AIUI there’s multiple charges. They may find some of them easier than others to determine.
    Maybe I am just irresponsible but if it was me I'd be thinking, fuck it, just one guilty verdict vs all of them has the same result, and if there was unanimity about one I'd concede on the others just to be able to go home.
    One guilty verdict v several is the difference between decades in prison.
  • MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election. So you can expect 6-18 months of it :smiley: .

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision. But that's back to traffic.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers? Does anyone want to walk the Pennine Way and report back? Or propose Miscarriage of Justice Reforms? Or Leon to review handmade chocolates?
    For me, the recent problem on pb is not so much the subjects but that any question can get bogged down in two or three PBers posting the same arguments and refutations to each other many, many times on the same thread. Sometimes I'm guilty myself but occasionally I remember to delete a response and "agree to disagree".
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,269
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    The Lucy Letby trial has been running since October last year, 15 days of deliberations is not unusual in such circumstances.

    Surprisingly, there’s been relatively little mainstream media coverage of it, given the horrific nature of the alleged crimes.

    For those who don’t know, she was a neonatal nurse and is accused of seven murders and 10 attempted murders.
    It has been covered but will be leading story once the verdict is in for a day or 2 I am sure
    Yes, I imagine the verdict will lead the news for a couple of days at least, and generate a lot of conversation around the NHS in general.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,953
    HYUFD said:

    Sir Gavin Williamson seeks to establish the facts as to why the Crooked House burnt down
    https://twitter.com/GavinWilliamson/status/1688901018984013824?s=20

    Time to get his tarantula out.


  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,310
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Slam DUNK

    The Crooked House culprits (allegedly) are unmasked


    "There is a mystery surrounding the fire and subsequent demolition of the pub just two weeks after it was sold to a private company.

    The Guardian has learned that the new buyer was a property firm called ATE Farms Ltd, owned by Carly Taylor, 34, a director of multiple companies.

    ATE Farms is registered to the same address as Himley Environmental Ltd, which runs the 15-hectare quarry and landfill site next to the pub. The Guardian was unable to reach ATE Farms Ltd for comment"


    So that's why they bought it, that's why they were able to block the road to fireman, that's why they had a JCB ready to go in an illegally tear it all down, within hours of the fire service departing


    This does not need Sherlock Holmes

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/08/you-will-be-missed-locals-seek-answers-about-destruction-of-crooked-house-pub

    Landfill?

    Land FILL?

    LAND Fill???
    More from the Times

    "The new owners of Britain’s wonkiest pub face questions by police after it burnt down and was then demolished without permission within weeks of them buying it.

    Carly Taylor, 34, and her husband Adam, 44, will be contacted by officers investigating the destruction of The Crooked House in Himley, Staffordshire, in a fire on Saturday."


    "Liam Hilton of Staffordshire fire service said on Monday that attempts to extinguish the fire on Saturday were hampered by “mounds of mud and soil placed in the centre of the road”.

    The Taylors did not respond to requests to comment on the destruction of the pub, which was sold by Marston’s Brewery in July to ATE Farms Limited, a company controlled by Mrs Taylor. It had been listed for sale for £675,000.

    She and her husband are current and former directors of 18 companies that are involved in activities including land development and waste management. He is a former director of Himley Environmental, which owns a landfill site adjacent to the pub."


    Hmm..


    "Lnd devleopment, waste management and a landfull site adjacent to the pub" What could they possibly gain from this pub they bought suddenly and mysteriously burning down, then being entirely demolished before police can investigate the cause?
    It is amazing how many times this sort of thing happens and no one is interested, there is no controversy at all.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,565
    HYUFD said:

    Unless there is a dramatic change in the polls then yes Sunak will try and put off a general election as long as possible as Callaghan, Major and Brown did to stay PM as long as he can for the record books

    So, January 2025 it is then?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,180
    Sandpit said:

    If anyone thinks that the British press go hard on the England football team when they lose, look at the reaction in the States to their women’s team being knocked out of the competition. It doesn’t help that the team themselves have been very political in recent years, and have been refusing to sing the national anthem at this tournament because they think they’re wearing the shirt of a racist and homophobic hellhole.

    Given the abuse an openly homosexual player has been receiving online over a missed penalty kick, there is evidence to the latter. As to the former... I bet it depends on which part of the USA you live in. And whether you are white, Asian, Hispanic or Black.
  • Miklosvar said:

    DougSeal said:

    Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    AIUI there’s multiple charges. They may find some of them easier than others to determine.
    Maybe I am just irresponsible but if it was me I'd be thinking, fuck it, just one guilty verdict vs all of them has the same result, and if there was unanimity about one I'd concede on the others just to be able to go home.
    I fear that in some high profile cases that is precisely what has happened. Indeed, that seems to be deliberate prosecutorial policy nowadays, to establish a pattern of offending so the jury need not concern their pretty little heads with the details of each and every particular charge.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,775
    New thread.
  • Polls close in five hours for August 8, 2023 Very Special Election in State of Ohio

    Returns should begin flowing in fairly quickly, as there is just one thing on the balllot: Issue 1.

    My own fearless prediction, that this effort by Republicans to impose a super-majority and other new hurdles for amending state constitution, will be a rather spectacular flop. Despite further efforts to suppress voter turnout, for example cancelling early voting on Monday, yesterday, on the eve of special election.

    In other words, Buckeye's will vote NO in today's election.

    Setting the stage for a statewide YES vote this November in favor of making Roe v Wade and the right to abortion, part the Ohio state constitution.

    With obvious ramifications for 2024 voters, candidates . . . and punters.

    Oooh! A VERY special election?
  • HYUFD said:

    Unless there is a dramatic change in the polls then yes Sunak will try and put off a general election as long as possible as Callaghan, Major and Brown did to stay PM as long as he can for the record books

    So, January 2025 it is then?
    Would mean an election campaign during the Christmas hols!
  • Sandpit said:

    If anyone thinks that the British press go hard on the England football team when they lose, look at the reaction in the States to their women’s team being knocked out of the competition. It doesn’t help that the team themselves have been very political in recent years, and have been refusing to sing the national anthem at this tournament because they think they’re wearing the shirt of a racist and homophobic hellhole.

    US reactions you are referencing, are NOT from sporting press, but instead from media ideologues.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,486

    Miklosvar said:

    DougSeal said:

    Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    AIUI there’s multiple charges. They may find some of them easier than others to determine.
    Maybe I am just irresponsible but if it was me I'd be thinking, fuck it, just one guilty verdict vs all of them has the same result, and if there was unanimity about one I'd concede on the others just to be able to go home.
    I fear that in some high profile cases that is precisely what has happened. Indeed, that seems to be deliberate prosecutorial policy nowadays, to establish a pattern of offending so the jury need not concern their pretty little heads with the details of each and every particular charge.
    Or the opposite: tacking an "affray" charge on to the end of the list of assault charges so the jury will at least convict on that.
  • New thread.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    Oh come on Nick, sometimes it can be entertaining. Watching CR and JJ battle it out is far more entertaining than my occasional spats with Malcolm where Malcolm just launces into a tirade of largely inarticulate abuse. At least they are debating.

    What subject of great import to your fellow man would you like to engage occasional visitors such as myself pray?
    You are a deluded cretin foreskin. Repeating the same childish thing ad nauseum shows how lacking in intelligence you are. Please F**k off and never post about me again. @foremain
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,189
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Miklosvar said:

    MattW said:

    I've been posting less on PB lately, partly because of other interests but also because recently it's been dominated by the same 10 or so people arguing a subject to death, each putting their view (fine) and then putting it again, and again, with minor variations. Wokeness, 20 mph zones, house design, each has occuped 1-2 days of repetitive posting.

    I'm no particular loss, but I notice that there aren't as many contributions from less frequent posters either. I wonder if they're being put off? This isn't to say that anyone shouldn't say what they think on anything. But maybe consider moving on after a few posts on a particular subject?

    I'm not sure I see you getting much relief on that, Nick - afaics these are the things that the Govt has chosen to emphasise in order to try and save the next election.

    There's a lot of interesting stuff happening internationally, whether Ukraine or elsewhere, but international politics is not really PB core. Personally I've gone slightly nerdy watching Trump marching himself towards pre-trial detention by repeatedly doing precisely what he has promised the judge he will not do.

    I've also been surprised to discover that in Scotland there is a mechanism for Juries setting the level of damages in civil cases, and who is responsible for what percentage of a collision.

    Given that we are in the summer holidays, perhaps we need some interestingly really divergent headers?
    Used to have juries in civil trials in England & Wales.

    Also: https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-jury-can-return-majority-verdicts-judge-rules-12936024

    They've been at it for 15 days. You'd have thought that that necessarily implied that there's reasonable doubt, and she should therefore walk.
    The Lucy Letby trial has been running since October last year, 15 days of deliberations is not unusual in such circumstances.

    Surprisingly, there’s been relatively little mainstream media coverage of it, given the horrific nature of the alleged crimes.

    For those who don’t know, she was a neonatal nurse and is accused of seven murders and 10 attempted murders.
    It has been covered but will be leading story once the verdict is in for a day or 2 I am sure
    Yes, I imagine the verdict will lead the news for a couple of days at least, and generate a lot of conversation around the NHS in general.
    Maybe but if she is found guilty I don't think whatever healthcare model we had would have made much difference, especially as the murders would have taken place over a relatively short timeframe
This discussion has been closed.