I’ve said it before, but many voters don’t understand why we can’t simply put irregular arrivals on a bus to Dover, and back from whence they came on the first available ferry.
And right thinking people on pb may not agree, but an awful lot of people in the U.K. don’t believe someone arriving from France is coming from an unsafe country.*
*Not my view, France is an absolute hell hole…**
**And yes, I know there is no requirement to claim asylum in the first safe country.
So much wrong with this post and shows a lot of the reasons why a party that has talked about stopping asylum and reducing immigration for twenty years and been in power for most of them has absolutely failed to deliver.
There is no such thing as right thinking people. (Almost) No-one thinks France is an unsafe country. France takes more asylum seekers than the UK.
But mostly why this weird fixation on claiming asylum seekers have to claim asylum in the first safe country, when you know that is not the law, and the governing party against the asylum seekers have no plan to make it the law.
It wouldn't work anyway and just lead to spillover conflicts in distressed regions.
There are lots of ways to reduce asylum claims and/or immigration if we really want to. Moaning about the status quo is not a solution.
You understand I hope that I was representing what an awful lot of people believe, not my own beliefs? People put themselves in the shoes of someone fleeing in terror and then deciding that France isn’t actually the right place to claim asylum and wonder why. That’s why people vote for parties that get tough (or claim to) on asylum as they don’t believe any of those crossing from France are genuine asylum seekers.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
There had been an application made to list the structure following the sale to the developer, only a week before it “went on fire”.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marston’s the brewers
The sad thing is that gay MPs still need to be in the closet. We've evolved significantly as a society over the last decade especially. Yet the fear of exposure from a society who is being whipped into a right wing frenzy to other anyone who doesn't conform to whatever the current Lee Anderson standard of behaviour is.
Except that's not what that article talks about. It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians.
Did you even read it?
Yes. "“One of them, who was not out, did so repeatedly. Another, who is still in the house and still does not accept that he is gay, pushed me against a wall and felt my crotch."
and
"“I remember when I came out in 2001, I was regularly touched up by older, senior, gay – they weren’t out – MPs. I never felt I was able to report it because you end up being part of the story, and that’s the last thing you want. And I think a lot of women have been through that.”"
It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians *who are in the closet*.
If they were out, would they be sneaking around grabbing Chris Bryant's arse as he has repeatedly suffered by closeted MPs?
We need to stamp out the over-sexed grabby atmosphere in the parliamentary estate which has seen scandal after scandal. But we already know that. The new nugget in the article is that so many of the gay gropers aren't openly gay. They're still the Little Britain MP giving a press conference with wife and kids surrounding them.
Loopy. Can I go about touching women's arses if society is depriving me of sex?
No. Next question.
Correct, because I am responsible for my own decisions, life choices and actions. And the difference is...
I’ve said it before, but many voters don’t understand why we can’t simply put irregular arrivals on a bus to Dover, and back from whence they came on the first available ferry.
And right thinking people on pb may not agree, but an awful lot of people in the U.K. don’t believe someone arriving from France is coming from an unsafe country.*
*Not my view, France is an absolute hell hole…**
**And yes, I know there is no requirement to claim asylum in the first safe country.
So much wrong with this post and shows a lot of the reasons why a party that has talked about stopping asylum and reducing immigration for twenty years and been in power for most of them has absolutely failed to deliver.
There is no such thing as right thinking people. (Almost) No-one thinks France is an unsafe country. France takes more asylum seekers than the UK.
But mostly why this weird fixation on claiming asylum seekers have to claim asylum in the first safe country, when you know that is not the law, and the governing party against the asylum seekers have no plan to make it the law.
It wouldn't work anyway and just lead to spillover conflicts in distressed regions.
There are lots of ways to reduce asylum claims and/or immigration if we really want to. Moaning about the status quo is not a solution.
You understand I hope that I was representing what an awful lot of people believe, not my own beliefs? People put themselves in the shoes of someone fleeing in terror and then deciding that France isn’t actually the right place to claim asylum and wonder why. That’s why people vote for parties that get tough (or claim to) on asylum as they don’t believe any of those crossing from France are genuine asylum seekers.
Especially when they accidentally, brutally destroy their papers...
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
You're thinking Marstons (formerly Wolverhampton & Dudley). They sold it a few months ago so aren't directly implicated.
They might take some indirect flak on lack of due diligence into the buyer... but how much due diligence does anyone perform on someone buying their property? Are they offering to pay more than anyone else is offering? Tick. Have they transferred the funds to my account? Tick.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
You're thinking Marstons (formerly Wolverhampton & Dudley). They sold it a few months ago so aren't directly implicated.
They might take some indirect flak on lack of due diligence into the buyer... but how much due diligence does anyone perform on someone buying their property? Are they offering to pay more than anyone else is offering? Tick. Have they transferred the funds to my account? Tick.
They are refusing to reveal who bought it, perhaps not illegal but looks damn shady
I’ve said it before, but many voters don’t understand why we can’t simply put irregular arrivals on a bus to Dover, and back from whence they came on the first available ferry.
And right thinking people on pb may not agree, but an awful lot of people in the U.K. don’t believe someone arriving from France is coming from an unsafe country.*
*Not my view, France is an absolute hell hole…**
**And yes, I know there is no requirement to claim asylum in the first safe country.
The paradox of the average bigot.
The UK is the best country in the world, the Frogs are revolting.
Also.
Where are all them asylum seekers flocking from? Why do they want to come here rather than stay in France?
I daresay they haven't lost a moment's sleep over it.
Not really a paradox and easily explainable.
You can understand the reasons why migrants would prefer the UK over France - language, lack of a national identity system making it easier to get lost in the system, extensive family networks (helps with the last point), free use of health facilities plus benefits such as housing provided by authorities who do not ask too many questions and are willing to accept your explanation.
However, that does not mean you think France is a hell hole. Sure, it is certainly a tougher country for migrants to live in because of the rules, restrictions etc but a lot of peoples' views are "if you are truly fleeing death and persecution, then surely a live in France is infinitely better?" The true answer, of course, is yes but many migrants are looking to come in for economic reasons.
It doesn't make you a bigot to think that way. But you are a bigot - in a different way - if you make no attempt to understand somebody's views and characterise them in simplistic terms.
That applies to refugees too. We tend to want to pigeonhole them into "Expects torture and death" or "wants a good life", but "Has some justified fears of torture and death AND wans a good alternative" is a perfectly reasonable position. It can't be stressed enough that France takes many more migrants than we do (and the countries nearer the places from which people free, like Jordan and Italy, have more still), but it's understandable that a minority reckon for the reasons you say that they have better prospects here. Hiding behind the Channel and saying "no, they must all be taken by France" is not a reasonable position.
The sad thing is that gay MPs still need to be in the closet. We've evolved significantly as a society over the last decade especially. Yet the fear of exposure from a society who is being whipped into a right wing frenzy to other anyone who doesn't conform to whatever the current Lee Anderson standard of behaviour is.
Except that's not what that article talks about. It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians.
Did you even read it?
Yes. "“One of them, who was not out, did so repeatedly. Another, who is still in the house and still does not accept that he is gay, pushed me against a wall and felt my crotch."
and
"“I remember when I came out in 2001, I was regularly touched up by older, senior, gay – they weren’t out – MPs. I never felt I was able to report it because you end up being part of the story, and that’s the last thing you want. And I think a lot of women have been through that.”"
It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians *who are in the closet*.
If they were out, would they be sneaking around grabbing Chris Bryant's arse as he has repeatedly suffered by closeted MPs?
We need to stamp out the over-sexed grabby atmosphere in the parliamentary estate which has seen scandal after scandal. But we already know that. The new nugget in the article is that so many of the gay gropers aren't openly gay. They're still the Little Britain MP giving a press conference with wife and kids surrounding them.
Loopy. Can I go about touching women's arses if society is depriving me of sex?
No. Next question.
Correct, because I am responsible for my own decisions, life choices and actions. And the difference is...
I don't know what point you are edging towards. I'm talking about the new angle in Bryant's book - that there are still a stack of MPs in the closet.
We already knew there was a groping problem. It needs to be stamped out. Lets assume that this will happen now that there is an awful lot of focus on it. Groping by any gender on any gender isn't the issue I am raising.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
If you can avoid US roads on Friday and Saturday nights, you will be safer, by a signficant margin.
(I apologize for possibly reviving a discussion that seemed to be going nowhere -- but I think that, in improving road safety, we have to look at the problem of impaired drivers, as well as speed limits.)
The sad thing is that gay MPs still need to be in the closet. We've evolved significantly as a society over the last decade especially. Yet the fear of exposure from a society who is being whipped into a right wing frenzy to other anyone who doesn't conform to whatever the current Lee Anderson standard of behaviour is.
The most sad thing is that some MPs have no idea how they should behave towards others (or rather they do, but still choose to sexually harass them).
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
But he's p*ssing in the wind Leon. The wonkiest pub in Britain has gone forever. The owner will be fined and after the dust has settled will be allowed to build whatever he desires. It is an outrage, but no one is going to rebuild it as a facsimile of the original. The developer wins.
I suspect Street's intervention has nothing to do with saving a wonky pub, and everything to do with a desire to expand the West Midlands Combined Authority to encompass a pretty reliable Conservative county.
I also think it had everything to do with jumping on an obvious bandwagon, and harnessing a popular moment of outrage, to get himself on the front page of the Guardian
But there's nothing wrong with that. This is what big city mayors are for. Harnessing popular feeling. Good for him. If only the Tories had someone with that skill and instinct as a candidate in London
The pub wasn't even in his political parish. The actual MP for Dudley and the pub, who has remained pitifully inert and silent is....
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
You're thinking Marstons (formerly Wolverhampton & Dudley). They sold it a few months ago so aren't directly implicated.
They might take some indirect flak on lack of due diligence into the buyer... but how much due diligence does anyone perform on someone buying their property? Are they offering to pay more than anyone else is offering? Tick. Have they transferred the funds to my account? Tick.
They are refusing to reveal who bought it, perhaps not illegal but looks damn shady
It'll be on the public land register (albeit with a delay). But if [edit] they are likely to get collateral grief, why be involved any more than trousering the money?
The sad thing is that gay MPs still need to be in the closet. We've evolved significantly as a society over the last decade especially. Yet the fear of exposure from a society who is being whipped into a right wing frenzy to other anyone who doesn't conform to whatever the current Lee Anderson standard of behaviour is.
Except that's not what that article talks about. It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians.
Did you even read it?
Yes. "“One of them, who was not out, did so repeatedly. Another, who is still in the house and still does not accept that he is gay, pushed me against a wall and felt my crotch."
and
"“I remember when I came out in 2001, I was regularly touched up by older, senior, gay – they weren’t out – MPs. I never felt I was able to report it because you end up being part of the story, and that’s the last thing you want. And I think a lot of women have been through that.”"
It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians *who are in the closet*.
If they were out, would they be sneaking around grabbing Chris Bryant's arse as he has repeatedly suffered by closeted MPs?
We need to stamp out the over-sexed grabby atmosphere in the parliamentary estate which has seen scandal after scandal. But we already know that. The new nugget in the article is that so many of the gay gropers aren't openly gay. They're still the Little Britain MP giving a press conference with wife and kids surrounding them.
Loopy. Can I go about touching women's arses if society is depriving me of sex?
No. Next question.
Correct, because I am responsible for my own decisions, life choices and actions. And the difference is...
I don't know what point you are edging towards. I'm talking about the new angle in Bryant's book - that there are still a stack of MPs in the closet.
We already knew there was a groping problem. It needs to be stamped out. Lets assume that this will happen now that there is an awful lot of focus on it. So groping isn't my issue.
So what is?
You are trying to excuse or minimise sexual misconduct, on spartist grounds. Despite what you think, society is not in a very real sense the root cause of this conduct.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
Except I bet a shiny sixpence that the plot is worth way more as a brownfield development site than it was as even a successful pub.
In Britain, everything really does come back to lack of housing.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
But he's p*ssing in the wind Leon. The wonkiest pub in Britain has gone forever. The owner will be fined and after the dust has settled will be allowed to build whatever he desires. It is an outrage, but no one is going to rebuild it as a facsimile of the original. The developer wins.
Pathetic defeatism
String the culprits up, by their goolies
At the very least we can make a horrifying example of these greedy fucks, so that others are less inclined to do the same shit
Come back and tell me I wasn't correct in say 2 years time.
Gavin Williamson represents the area where the Crooked House was located. I wonder if he's said anything about it so far.
Yes. I have the press release here:
EMBARGOED UNTIL 1PM, 8 AUGUST 2023
There was a crooked man, and he walked a crooked mile, He found a crooked sixpence against a crooked stile; He bought a crooked cat which caught a crooked mouse, And they all lived together in a little crooked house. Which burned down. Probably a faulty fireplace or something.
ENDS
Notes for editors:
All enquiries to SIR Gavin Williamson MP c/o House of Commons.
The sad thing is that gay MPs still need to be in the closet. We've evolved significantly as a society over the last decade especially. Yet the fear of exposure from a society who is being whipped into a right wing frenzy to other anyone who doesn't conform to whatever the current Lee Anderson standard of behaviour is.
Except that's not what that article talks about. It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians.
Did you even read it?
Yes. "“One of them, who was not out, did so repeatedly. Another, who is still in the house and still does not accept that he is gay, pushed me against a wall and felt my crotch."
and
"“I remember when I came out in 2001, I was regularly touched up by older, senior, gay – they weren’t out – MPs. I never felt I was able to report it because you end up being part of the story, and that’s the last thing you want. And I think a lot of women have been through that.”"
It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians *who are in the closet*.
If they were out, would they be sneaking around grabbing Chris Bryant's arse as he has repeatedly suffered by closeted MPs?
We need to stamp out the over-sexed grabby atmosphere in the parliamentary estate which has seen scandal after scandal. But we already know that. The new nugget in the article is that so many of the gay gropers aren't openly gay. They're still the Little Britain MP giving a press conference with wife and kids surrounding them.
Loopy. Can I go about touching women's arses if society is depriving me of sex?
No. Next question.
Correct, because I am responsible for my own decisions, life choices and actions. And the difference is...
I don't know what point you are edging towards. I'm talking about the new angle in Bryant's book - that there are still a stack of MPs in the closet.
We already knew there was a groping problem. It needs to be stamped out. Lets assume that this will happen now that there is an awful lot of focus on it. So groping isn't my issue.
So what is?
You are trying to excuse or minimise sexual misconduct, on spartist grounds. Despite what you think, society is not in a very real sense the root cause of this conduct.
No, I'm really not. And have said repeatedly that groping by anyone is bad. My point wasn't about groping at all. Bryant is talking about his experiences being groped - which is bad and like all parliamentary groping needs to be stamped out.
I was querying why MPs are still in the closet in 2023. Whether those closeted MPs are gropers or not. Groping is bad. Being gay isn't bad - or shouldn't be seen to be. And yet...
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
But he's p*ssing in the wind Leon. The wonkiest pub in Britain has gone forever. The owner will be fined and after the dust has settled will be allowed to build whatever he desires. It is an outrage, but no one is going to rebuild it as a facsimile of the original. The developer wins.
Pathetic defeatism
String the culprits up, by their goolies
At the very least we can make a horrifying example of these greedy fucks, so that others are less inclined to do the same shit
Come back and tell me I wasn't correct in say 2 years time.
You're on shaky ground here because Leon has never been wrong about anything.
Nationalise it! We used to do things like that. Rolls-Royce only exists because we nationalised it in the 1970's. Why are we so wedded to the policies of the neoliberal era when they plainly don't work any more???
Catching up with the Electoral Commission hack. Man alive, it was going on for a year. Everyone on the Electoral register including the closed register has been compromised.
All on Starmer's LOTO watch. Starmer fans please explain.
Gavin Williamson represents the area where the Crooked House was located. I wonder if he's said anything about it so far.
Yes. I have the press release here:
EMBARGOED UNTIL 1PM, 8 AUGUST 2023
There was a crooked man, and he walked a crooked mile, He found a crooked sixpence against a crooked stile; He bought a crooked cat which caught a crooked mouse, And they all lived together in a little crooked house. Which burned down. Probably a faulty fireplace or something.
ENDS
Notes for editors:
All enquiries to SIR Gavin Williamson MP c/o House of Commons.
Best version was the one Graeme Garden did on I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue in 1991;
...and they all lived together till he fell off his yacht.
The sad thing is that gay MPs still need to be in the closet. We've evolved significantly as a society over the last decade especially. Yet the fear of exposure from a society who is being whipped into a right wing frenzy to other anyone who doesn't conform to whatever the current Lee Anderson standard of behaviour is.
Except that's not what that article talks about. It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians.
Did you even read it?
Yes. "“One of them, who was not out, did so repeatedly. Another, who is still in the house and still does not accept that he is gay, pushed me against a wall and felt my crotch."
and
"“I remember when I came out in 2001, I was regularly touched up by older, senior, gay – they weren’t out – MPs. I never felt I was able to report it because you end up being part of the story, and that’s the last thing you want. And I think a lot of women have been through that.”"
It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians *who are in the closet*.
If they were out, would they be sneaking around grabbing Chris Bryant's arse as he has repeatedly suffered by closeted MPs?
We need to stamp out the over-sexed grabby atmosphere in the parliamentary estate which has seen scandal after scandal. But we already know that. The new nugget in the article is that so many of the gay gropers aren't openly gay. They're still the Little Britain MP giving a press conference with wife and kids surrounding them.
Loopy. Can I go about touching women's arses if society is depriving me of sex?
No. Next question.
Correct, because I am responsible for my own decisions, life choices and actions. And the difference is...
I don't know what point you are edging towards. I'm talking about the new angle in Bryant's book - that there are still a stack of MPs in the closet.
We already knew there was a groping problem. It needs to be stamped out. Lets assume that this will happen now that there is an awful lot of focus on it. So groping isn't my issue.
So what is?
You are trying to excuse or minimise sexual misconduct, on spartist grounds. Despite what you think, society is not in a very real sense the root cause of this conduct.
No, I'm really not. And have said repeatedly that groping by anyone is bad. My point wasn't about groping at all. Bryant is talking about his experiences being groped - which is bad and like all parliamentary groping needs to be stamped out.
I was querying why MPs are still in the closet in 2023. Whether those closeted MPs are gropers or not. Groping is bad. Being gay isn't bad - or shouldn't be seen to be. And yet...
“Police have arrested a man on suspicion of GBH following an incident at the junction of Russell Street and Museum Street around 10am on Tuesday 8 August.
“A man was treated for a stab wound to the arm at the scene and taken by London Ambulance Service to hospital.
“His condition is being assessed.
“This was an isolated incident and there is no outstanding risk to the public. It is not being treated as terror-related.
“The scene may be in place for much of today.
“Anyone with information or footage which could assist the police investigation is asked to contact police on 101, quoting CADF 2184/08AUG, or anonymously via Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.”
Another American usage coming into use by the British right.
It's idiotic because in this country we have a party with "Liberal" in its title that, far from being on the left, actually propped up the Tories in government for five years while presiding over ruinous cuts to local public services! Socialist isn't a dirty word in this country like in the US. Please, PB right wingers, don't call people on the left "Libs", it just makes you look even more dumb than you actually are.
Speaking of how people characterise their political opponents, Sturgeon is apparently an anti-British Marxist.
Nicola and Ralph Miliband up a tree Plotting the downfall of this country
Although that remark is so poorly punctuated it's hard to even know what she means. Has the right in this country always been this moronic?
The hard/far right almost certainly. Corbyn was of course the most stupid person by a long way to lead a mainstream British party and those of you of a left persuasion might be surprised to realise he is not of the right.
And for frothing English hating Scottish Nationalists I pass you Exhibit Malcolmg, graduate of the University of Life, and far and away the most obnoxious and stupid moron to contribute to this otherwise excellent site.
I remain convinced that you and Malcolm are a delightful old couple with a raffish theatrical past who engage in ironic banter on PB in between making each other cups of tea and buttery crumpets in front of the fire somewhere in Sussex.
Get them on Gogglebox.
'I say, Nutty..'
I found out the other day that Giles and Mary off Gogglebox are married! I thought she was his carer.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
But he's p*ssing in the wind Leon. The wonkiest pub in Britain has gone forever. The owner will be fined and after the dust has settled will be allowed to build whatever he desires. It is an outrage, but no one is going to rebuild it as a facsimile of the original. The developer wins.
I suspect Street's intervention has nothing to do with saving a wonky pub, and everything to do with a desire to expand the West Midlands Combined Authority to encompass a pretty reliable Conservative county.
I also think it had everything to do with jumping on an obvious bandwagon, and harnessing a popular moment of outrage, to get himself on the front page of the Guardian
But there's nothing wrong with that. This is what big city mayors are for. Harnessing popular feeling. Good for him. If only the Tories had someone with that skill and instinct as a candidate in London
The pub wasn't even in his political parish. The actual MP for Dudley and the pub, who has remained pitifully inert and silent is....
Gavin Williamson
Yes and no.
I mean, I get the politics of intervening in an issue that isn't actually in his remit but closely borders his patch and which people in his patch are naturally concerned about. And I quite like Street - I think he's a reasonably effective metropolitan Mayor.
But it is a pretty inexpensive bit of politics for him, and one wonders what his approach would be if the pub was in fact in his patch. As it is, his authority doesn't miss out on the CIL/s106 levy from development on the site, and doesn't face the legal bill for planning appeals. He also gets to say "well, if you'd been in West Mids Combined Authority, things might have panned out differently". So it's a bit of a free swim.
The sad thing is that gay MPs still need to be in the closet. We've evolved significantly as a society over the last decade especially. Yet the fear of exposure from a society who is being whipped into a right wing frenzy to other anyone who doesn't conform to whatever the current Lee Anderson standard of behaviour is.
Except that's not what that article talks about. It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians.
Did you even read it?
That’s the Kevin Spacey and Philip Schofield argument, conflating openness about sexuality with sexual misbehavior.
It’s not really a surprise that there’s sexually deviant behaviour going on in Parliament.
Careful now. Spacey has been acquitted on every charge ever brought to court.
There is also no sexual misbehaviour been proved against Schofield. The Daily Mail simply sought to create outrage amongst its sexually vanilla readership over the fact that an older man might be attracted to a younger one and visa versa. They then made up a load of bollox to justify their prurience by saying that Schofield "took advantage of his power" when it is perfectly possible that the young man might possibly have made the first advance for all they knew. It was just pure homophobia.
AIUI Schofield's situation was very different, given that he got the man a job at the company, abusing and misusing his position.
Most companies would sack an employee for such behaviour, and rightly so IMO. Whilst not illegal, it was wrong.
Yes, no, maybe, depending what actually happened. Many large companies encourage employees to recruit their friends and family. For one thing, it is cheaper than paying agency fees and more reliable because a degree of informal pre-screening has gone on. It is when there is a perceived abuse of power that things get messy, and I'm not sure that has even been alleged in the Schofield case.
The sad thing is that gay MPs still need to be in the closet. We've evolved significantly as a society over the last decade especially. Yet the fear of exposure from a society who is being whipped into a right wing frenzy to other anyone who doesn't conform to whatever the current Lee Anderson standard of behaviour is.
Except that's not what that article talks about. It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians.
Did you even read it?
Yes. "“One of them, who was not out, did so repeatedly. Another, who is still in the house and still does not accept that he is gay, pushed me against a wall and felt my crotch."
and
"“I remember when I came out in 2001, I was regularly touched up by older, senior, gay – they weren’t out – MPs. I never felt I was able to report it because you end up being part of the story, and that’s the last thing you want. And I think a lot of women have been through that.”"
It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians *who are in the closet*.
If they were out, would they be sneaking around grabbing Chris Bryant's arse as he has repeatedly suffered by closeted MPs?
We need to stamp out the over-sexed grabby atmosphere in the parliamentary estate which has seen scandal after scandal. But we already know that. The new nugget in the article is that so many of the gay gropers aren't openly gay. They're still the Little Britain MP giving a press conference with wife and kids surrounding them.
Loopy. Can I go about touching women's arses if society is depriving me of sex?
No. Next question.
Correct, because I am responsible for my own decisions, life choices and actions. And the difference is...
I don't know what point you are edging towards. I'm talking about the new angle in Bryant's book - that there are still a stack of MPs in the closet.
We already knew there was a groping problem. It needs to be stamped out. Lets assume that this will happen now that there is an awful lot of focus on it. So groping isn't my issue.
So what is?
You are trying to excuse or minimise sexual misconduct, on spartist grounds. Despite what you think, society is not in a very real sense the root cause of this conduct.
No, I'm really not. And have said repeatedly that groping by anyone is bad. My point wasn't about groping at all. Bryant is talking about his experiences being groped - which is bad and like all parliamentary groping needs to be stamped out.
I was querying why MPs are still in the closet in 2023. Whether those closeted MPs are gropers or not. Groping is bad. Being gay isn't bad - or shouldn't be seen to be. And yet...
There's 52 openly gay MPs in the HoC (My count from wiki). As a % that's miles above general society. The figures show it is easier to be "out" in the HoC compared to the rest of society.
In the US, political labeling is often misleading, sometimes deliberately so, sometimes out of ignorance.
For example: After Angela Davis had run for vice president on the Communist ticket, she was still often referred to as an "activist", or even a "civil rights activist". Recently I caught a local journalist referring to Seattle's Trotskyite Kshama Sawant as a "liberal".
And our journalists are unwilling to ask obvious questions of politicians they sympathize with, even when those politicians label themselves. For example: Bernie Sanders. He describes himself as a Democratic Socialist, but is seldom, if ever, asked which of those two is most important to him. (His honeymoon in the USSR gives a hint that would be worth following up. As far as I know, he never met with Solzhenitsyn, though the two lived in the same small state, for years.)
I generally avoid using the liberal label, because of this confusion. (Though I will sometimes refer to "classical liberals", when I think it appropriate.)
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
But he's p*ssing in the wind Leon. The wonkiest pub in Britain has gone forever. The owner will be fined and after the dust has settled will be allowed to build whatever he desires. It is an outrage, but no one is going to rebuild it as a facsimile of the original. The developer wins.
I suspect Street's intervention has nothing to do with saving a wonky pub, and everything to do with a desire to expand the West Midlands Combined Authority to encompass a pretty reliable Conservative county.
I also think it had everything to do with jumping on an obvious bandwagon, and harnessing a popular moment of outrage, to get himself on the front page of the Guardian
But there's nothing wrong with that. This is what big city mayors are for. Harnessing popular feeling. Good for him. If only the Tories had someone with that skill and instinct as a candidate in London
The pub wasn't even in his political parish. The actual MP for Dudley and the pub, who has remained pitifully inert and silent is....
Gavin Williamson
Yes and no.
I mean, I get the politics of intervening in an issue that isn't actually in his remit but closely borders his patch and which people in his patch are naturally concerned about. And I quite like Street - I think he's a reasonably effective metropolitan Mayor.
But it is a pretty inexpensive bit of politics for him, and one wonders what his approach would be if the pub was in fact in his patch. As it is, his authority doesn't miss out on the CIL/s106 levy from development on the site, and doesn't face the legal bill for planning appeals. He also gets to say "well, if you'd been in West Mids Combined Authority, things might have panned out differently". So it's a bit of a free swim.
And he's exploiting it. Is all I am saying. Good for him: good basic politics
PLUS he is using his pulpit to raise the profile of a scandal that has clearly upset LOTS of people on social media. The various pics and videos are going viral. The pressure on the coppers and the council and all the dodgy companies involved needs to be maintained
If you can avoid US roads on Friday and Saturday nights, you will be safer, by a signficant margin.
(I apologize for possibly reviving a discussion that seemed to be going nowhere -- but I think that, in improving road safety, we have to look at the problem of impaired drivers, as well as speed limits.)
20 years back, visiting American colleagues marvelled at how drunk-driving had become socially unacceptable in Britain whereas in the US it was still considered perfectly normal to drive home and take your chance with the police. Of course, things may well have changed in the last two decades, although now there is also the huge increase in drug use.
Another American usage coming into use by the British right.
It's idiotic because in this country we have a party with "Liberal" in its title that, far from being on the left, actually propped up the Tories in government for five years while presiding over ruinous cuts to local public services! Socialist isn't a dirty word in this country like in the US. Please, PB right wingers, don't call people on the left "Libs", it just makes you look even more dumb than you actually are.
Speaking of how people characterise their political opponents, Sturgeon is apparently an anti-British Marxist.
Nicola and Ralph Miliband up a tree Plotting the downfall of this country
Although that remark is so poorly punctuated it's hard to even know what she means. Has the right in this country always been this moronic?
The hard/far right almost certainly. Corbyn was of course the most stupid person by a long way to lead a mainstream British party and those of you of a left persuasion might be surprised to realise he is not of the right.
And for frothing English hating Scottish Nationalists I pass you Exhibit Malcolmg, graduate of the University of Life, and far and away the most obnoxious and stupid moron to contribute to this otherwise excellent site.
I remain convinced that you and Malcolm are a delightful old couple with a raffish theatrical past who engage in ironic banter on PB in between making each other cups of tea and buttery crumpets in front of the fire somewhere in Sussex.
Get them on Gogglebox.
'I say, Nutty..'
I found out the other day that Giles and Mary off Gogglebox are married! I thought she was his carer.
If you can avoid US roads on Friday and Saturday nights, you will be safer, by a signficant margin.
(I apologize for possibly reviving a discussion that seemed to be going nowhere -- but I think that, in improving road safety, we have to look at the problem of impaired drivers, as well as speed limits.)
20 years back, visiting American colleagues marvelled at how drunk-driving had become socially unacceptable in Britain whereas in the US it was still considered perfectly normal to drive home and take your chance with the police. Of course, things may well have changed in the last two decades, although now there is also the huge increase in drug use.
According to my suburban friends, it’s still considered “acceptable”.
I’m hopping about the Crooked House Affair. Pubs are one of the best things about this country.
They should be heavily subsidised, as France does to its bistros and the US does to its strip malls.
The “developer” should be forced to re-build it. With his teeth.
It's also an example of where social media can be a positive thing. In the past, you'd have learned about this days or weeks after it happened, the outrage would be retrospective and weak, you'd then move on and forget it. On TwitterX and Facebook it is all immediate, visceral and in real-time, and the alleged culprits get intense pressure from the start. So things happen. I hope
I’m hopping about the Crooked House Affair. Pubs are one of the best things about this country.
They should be heavily subsidised, as France does to its bistros and the US does to its strip malls.
The “developer” should be forced to re-build it. With his teeth.
It's also an example of where social media can be a positive thing. In the past, you'd have learned about this days or weeks after it happened, the outrage would be retrospective and weak, you'd then move on and forget it. On TwitterX and Facebook it is all immediate, visceral and in real-time, and the alleged culprits get intense pressure from the start. So things happen. I hope
One thing that immediately springs up watching the video - the chap in the black jacket is not wearing a hard hat or any PPE. Which I'm reasonably confident is required under h&s when an active demolition is underway.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
At what point does a lawyer cross a legal line when advising a client?
Is it okay to say, for example: “Yes I know you said you came from Albania to work in your friend’s car wash, but you need to say that you came from Iran with your boyfriend, because they don’t like gays in Iran”?
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
It wasn’t shut down. Someone burned it down and then bulldozed it to destroy the evidence.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
I'm sure your UK would have incredible GDP figures. But it would utterly charmless, and the welfare of the people who live here no better (or even worse).
There does need to be some sort of concerted effort to save pubs, halls. There is a value in social cohesion that doesn't appear on a spreadsheet. For one, it means that you can escape your poxy flat or new build for a few hours.
If you can avoid US roads on Friday and Saturday nights, you will be safer, by a signficant margin.
(I apologize for possibly reviving a discussion that seemed to be going nowhere -- but I think that, in improving road safety, we have to look at the problem of impaired drivers, as well as speed limits.)
Raise the driving age in the USA from 16 to the 17 that it is here in the UK.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
But he's p*ssing in the wind Leon. The wonkiest pub in Britain has gone forever. The owner will be fined and after the dust has settled will be allowed to build whatever he desires. It is an outrage, but no one is going to rebuild it as a facsimile of the original. The developer wins.
I suspect Street's intervention has nothing to do with saving a wonky pub, and everything to do with a desire to expand the West Midlands Combined Authority to encompass a pretty reliable Conservative county.
I also think it had everything to do with jumping on an obvious bandwagon, and harnessing a popular moment of outrage, to get himself on the front page of the Guardian
But there's nothing wrong with that. This is what big city mayors are for. Harnessing popular feeling. Good for him. If only the Tories had someone with that skill and instinct as a candidate in London
The pub wasn't even in his political parish. The actual MP for Dudley and the pub, who has remained pitifully inert and silent is....
Gavin Williamson
Yes and no.
I mean, I get the politics of intervening in an issue that isn't actually in his remit but closely borders his patch and which people in his patch are naturally concerned about. And I quite like Street - I think he's a reasonably effective metropolitan Mayor.
But it is a pretty inexpensive bit of politics for him, and one wonders what his approach would be if the pub was in fact in his patch. As it is, his authority doesn't miss out on the CIL/s106 levy from development on the site, and doesn't face the legal bill for planning appeals. He also gets to say "well, if you'd been in West Mids Combined Authority, things might have panned out differently". So it's a bit of a free swim.
And he's exploiting it. Is all I am saying. Good for him: good basic politics
PLUS he is using his pulpit to raise the profile of a scandal that has clearly upset LOTS of people on social media. The various pics and videos are going viral. The pressure on the coppers and the council and all the dodgy companies involved needs to be maintained
I agree. Somebody should do a bit of research and write an article about it for The Spectator, promptly.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
It wasn’t shut down. Someone burned it down and then bulldozed it to destroy the evidence.
It was shut down. It was sold shut, "never to re-open". It was sold for redevelopment, which should surely please anyone who ever uses the word "brownfield" as a suggestion. Unless they're lying shitbags and didn't mean it.
Did the Tory Party Chairman, supported by the Justice Secretary, really say he wished asylum seekers would fuck off?
What a churl, what an absolute boor. Yet Casino comes on here, ranting about the “libs”.
The solution to pretty much any issue in Britain starts with terminating the current government with extreme prejudice.
To be fair, Deputy Chairman, which is one of those "all must have prizes" titles that trendy woke schools give out to stop the mediocre children feeling sad. Right now, the others are Jack Lopresti, Nickie Aiken, Jerry Bendigo, Luke Hall and Matt Vickers. And one of those is made up, but I doubt that many people could tell which without use of google.
But yes. Either Anderson said this with the backing of the party, in which case they're all bloody disgraces. Or he said it and won't get sanctioned, because the leadership is frit.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
You just get more and more ridiculous
Where were you when London Euston was demolished to make way for the current concrete jungle?
And I say that as a driver of a high performance car.
Twenty is plenty in town.
Muy retro, don't think I have heard the expression high performance car since about the time the first golf GTI came out.
The Lotus Carton created quite a stir in the early ‘90s, but these days Tesla calls it’s top-of-the line cars “performance”, and they’re considerably faster than a 30-year-old saloon with a big engine.
The “Plaid” Model S and X are over 1000hp
Which would suggest that cruising at speeds over 20mph wouldn’t be a problem.
Incidentally - in the electric cars I have driven, they seem to be comfortable across all speeds. They don’t mind crawling along at 5mph or doing… lots. Is that standard with electric power trains or good engineering?
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
It wasn’t shut down. Someone burned it down and then bulldozed it to destroy the evidence.
It was shut down. It was sold shut, "never to re-open". It was sold for redevelopment, which should surely please anyone who ever uses the word "brownfield" as a suggestion. Unless they're lying shitbags and didn't mean it.
I heard it was sold as a going concern. As for your other suggestions, I refer you to my last comment.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
You just get more and more ridiculous
Where were you when London Euston was demolished to make way for the current concrete jungle?
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
I'm sure your UK would have incredible GDP figures. But it would utterly charmless, and the welfare of the people who live here no better (or even worse).
There does need to be some sort of concerted effort to save pubs, halls. There is a value in social cohesion that doesn't appear on a spreadsheet. For one, it means that you can escape your poxy flat or new build for a few hours.
If you want a concerted effort to save pubs, halls etc, then start by drinking in them. Frequent those establishments and provide them custom.
If you can't be bothered, then don't complain if they go out of business. Put your money where your mouth is and go buy a pint or two. Regularly.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
You just get more and more ridiculous
Where were you when London Euston was demolished to make way for the current concrete jungle?
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
I'm sure your UK would have incredible GDP figures. But it would utterly charmless, and the welfare of the people who live here no better (or even worse).
There does need to be some sort of concerted effort to save pubs, halls. There is a value in social cohesion that doesn't appear on a spreadsheet. For one, it means that you can escape your poxy flat or new build for a few hours.
If you want a concerted effort to save pubs, halls etc, then start by drinking in them. Frequent those establishments and provide them custom.
If you can't be bothered, then don't complain if they go out of business. Put your money where your mouth is and go buy a pint or two. Regularly.
If this happened in London, Sadiq Khan would probably welcome the space for a putative trans knitting co-operative.
Now now. There is room for a PB consensus here.
Yes. This should be an issue which unites all sides. The Crooked House was a beloved part of the Black Country's proud, working class history, cradle of the industrial revolution, a place for working men and women to have a tilted pint, now destroyed by evil developers (we think). A classic cause for the Left
But it is also an obvious cause for Conservatives, who love our nation's history, want to CONSERVE the best of it, and despise hasty and ugly change, especially in architecture and culture.
So we can all get together and hate the villains, and see them humiliated and bankrupted, and also forced to rebuild the pub, naked in the winter. Hopefully
The only one of us who doesn't care is the mad @BartholomewRoberts who wants to turn every inch of Britian into red brick semi detached Barratt homes, just like his fuck-ugly gaff.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
I'm sure your UK would have incredible GDP figures. But it would utterly charmless, and the welfare of the people who live here no better (or even worse).
There does need to be some sort of concerted effort to save pubs, halls. There is a value in social cohesion that doesn't appear on a spreadsheet. For one, it means that you can escape your poxy flat or new build for a few hours.
If you want a concerted effort to save pubs, halls etc, then start by drinking in them. Frequent those establishments and provide them custom.
If you can't be bothered, then don't complain if they go out of business. Put your money where your mouth is and go buy a pint or two. Regularly.
If they had better cycle provision I'd be more likely to buy a pint.
But seriously - I am a regular pub goer and claim to have singlehandedly kept my local pizzeria going during lockdown. I just wish the pints were as cheap as the cans you can buy in Tesco.
It’s thoroughly possible to build new housing without setting light to, and then hastily demolishing, an 18th century pub.
Ok, where?
Not on greenfield lands apparently?
But not on unlisted brownfield lands either?
So where exactly?
How about just not burning down national heritage?
It’s not necessary to do so to build new houses.
As pointed out upthread, the pub could have been incorporated into the development.
You choose to ignore this to make one of your nutty arguments, like you pretended to declare pictures of mass car parking as lovely.
Heritage? It was unlisted and sold for redevelopment. Shouldn't even need a fire to proceed with that.
Especially given how often we hear about brownfield being the solution. What more do you want, here is brownfield land, not listed, which was sold for redevelopment.
But apparently that's still not enough.
And if we can't tear down old buildings, then new buildings have to go on greenfield land, not brownfield.
It’s time BartyBobbins to accept that he has the aesthetic and cultural sense of a spastic frog, and to leave discussions around national heritage to everyone else.
If this happened in London, Sadiq Khan would probably welcome the space for a putative trans knitting co-operative.
Now now. There is room for a PB consensus here.
Yes. This should be an issue which unites all sides. The Crooked House was a beloved part of the Black Country's proud, working class history, cradle of the industrial revolution, a place for working men and women to have a tilted pint, now destroyed by evil developers (we think). A classic cause for the Left
But it is also an obvious cause for Conservatives, who love our nation's history, want to CONSERVE the best of it, and despise hasty and ugly change, especially in architecture and culture.
So we can all get together and hate the villains, and see them humiliated and bankrupted, and also forced to rebuild the pub, naked in the winter. Hopefully
The only one of us who doesn't care is the mad @BartholomewRoberts who wants to turn every inch of Britian into red brick semi detached Barratt homes, just like his fuck-ugly gaff.
He actually admitted to living in an LTN earlier, the scoundrel.
Probably has a segregated cycle lane and a 17th century pub too.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
I'm sure your UK would have incredible GDP figures. But it would utterly charmless, and the welfare of the people who live here no better (or even worse).
There does need to be some sort of concerted effort to save pubs, halls. There is a value in social cohesion that doesn't appear on a spreadsheet. For one, it means that you can escape your poxy flat or new build for a few hours.
If you want a concerted effort to save pubs, halls etc, then start by drinking in them. Frequent those establishments and provide them custom.
If you can't be bothered, then don't complain if they go out of business. Put your money where your mouth is and go buy a pint or two. Regularly.
If you can avoid US roads on Friday and Saturday nights, you will be safer, by a signficant margin.
(I apologize for possibly reviving a discussion that seemed to be going nowhere -- but I think that, in improving road safety, we have to look at the problem of impaired drivers, as well as speed limits.)
20 years back, visiting American colleagues marvelled at how drunk-driving had become socially unacceptable in Britain whereas in the US it was still considered perfectly normal to drive home and take your chance with the police. Of course, things may well have changed in the last two decades, although now there is also the huge increase in drug use.
According to my suburban friends, it’s still considered “acceptable”.
I know a few folk who live by the 'five and drive' rule...
The sad thing is that gay MPs still need to be in the closet. We've evolved significantly as a society over the last decade especially. Yet the fear of exposure from a society who is being whipped into a right wing frenzy to other anyone who doesn't conform to whatever the current Lee Anderson standard of behaviour is.
Except that's not what that article talks about. It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians.
Did you even read it?
Yes. "“One of them, who was not out, did so repeatedly. Another, who is still in the house and still does not accept that he is gay, pushed me against a wall and felt my crotch."
and
"“I remember when I came out in 2001, I was regularly touched up by older, senior, gay – they weren’t out – MPs. I never felt I was able to report it because you end up being part of the story, and that’s the last thing you want. And I think a lot of women have been through that.”"
It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians *who are in the closet*.
If they were out, would they be sneaking around grabbing Chris Bryant's arse as he has repeatedly suffered by closeted MPs?
We need to stamp out the over-sexed grabby atmosphere in the parliamentary estate which has seen scandal after scandal. But we already know that. The new nugget in the article is that so many of the gay gropers aren't openly gay. They're still the Little Britain MP giving a press conference with wife and kids surrounding them.
Loopy. Can I go about touching women's arses if society is depriving me of sex?
No. Next question.
Correct, because I am responsible for my own decisions, life choices and actions. And the difference is...
I don't know what point you are edging towards. I'm talking about the new angle in Bryant's book - that there are still a stack of MPs in the closet.
We already knew there was a groping problem. It needs to be stamped out. Lets assume that this will happen now that there is an awful lot of focus on it. So groping isn't my issue.
So what is?
You are trying to excuse or minimise sexual misconduct, on spartist grounds. Despite what you think, society is not in a very real sense the root cause of this conduct.
No, I'm really not. And have said repeatedly that groping by anyone is bad. My point wasn't about groping at all. Bryant is talking about his experiences being groped - which is bad and like all parliamentary groping needs to be stamped out.
I was querying why MPs are still in the closet in 2023. Whether those closeted MPs are gropers or not. Groping is bad. Being gay isn't bad - or shouldn't be seen to be. And yet...
As Bryant has suggested, read the replies to this post to get an idea of why any MP might be reluctant to talk about being groped. They are utterly vile - and par for the course. Female MPs face much the same.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
But he's p*ssing in the wind Leon. The wonkiest pub in Britain has gone forever. The owner will be fined and after the dust has settled will be allowed to build whatever he desires. It is an outrage, but no one is going to rebuild it as a facsimile of the original. The developer wins.
If this happened in London, Sadiq Khan would probably welcome the space for a putative trans knitting co-operative.
Now now. There is room for a PB consensus here.
Yes. This should be an issue which unites all sides. The Crooked House was a beloved part of the Black Country's proud, working class history, cradle of the industrial revolution, a place for working men and women to have a tilted pint, now destroyed by evil developers (we think). A classic cause for the Left
But it is also an obvious cause for Conservatives, who love our nation's history, want to CONSERVE the best of it, and despise hasty and ugly change, especially in architecture and culture.
So we can all get together and hate the villains, and see them humiliated and bankrupted, and also forced to rebuild the pub, naked in the winter. Hopefully
The only one of us who doesn't care is the mad @BartholomewRoberts who wants to turn every inch of Britian into red brick semi detached Barratt homes, just like his fuck-ugly gaff.
He actually admitted to living in an LTN earlier, the scoundrel.
Probably has a segregated cycle lane and a 17th century pub too.
I didn't admit to any such thing. I've been telling you as long as we have had the conversation that I live somewhere new build, on what was greenfield land, which has LTN estates and dedicated cycle lanes and new roads etc ... And that I want more of that built elsewhere too.
So why exactly are you shocked that it's an LTN estate when I have told you that repeatedly. And it's what I've explicitly said we need to BUILD MORE OF?
Seems more like you've just not been listening to me?
If you can avoid US roads on Friday and Saturday nights, you will be safer, by a signficant margin.
(I apologize for possibly reviving a discussion that seemed to be going nowhere -- but I think that, in improving road safety, we have to look at the problem of impaired drivers, as well as speed limits.)
20 years back, visiting American colleagues marvelled at how drunk-driving had become socially unacceptable in Britain whereas in the US it was still considered perfectly normal to drive home and take your chance with the police. Of course, things may well have changed in the last two decades, although now there is also the huge increase in drug use.
According to my suburban friends, it’s still considered “acceptable”.
I know a few folk who live by the 'five and drive' rule...
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
All parties do; this is hardly a partisan issue.
I'd note, though that the reason most councils are reluctant to pursue such cases more energetically is that doing so can be very expensive for them. They - and their planning departments - are severely resource constrained.
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
I'm sure your UK would have incredible GDP figures. But it would utterly charmless, and the welfare of the people who live here no better (or even worse).
There does need to be some sort of concerted effort to save pubs, halls. There is a value in social cohesion that doesn't appear on a spreadsheet. For one, it means that you can escape your poxy flat or new build for a few hours.
If you want a concerted effort to save pubs, halls etc, then start by drinking in them. Frequent those establishments and provide them custom.
If you can't be bothered, then don't complain if they go out of business. Put your money where your mouth is and go buy a pint or two. Regularly.
If they had better cycle provision I'd be more likely to buy a pint.
But seriously - I am a regular pub goer and claim to have singlehandedly kept my local pizzeria going during lockdown. I just wish the pints were as cheap as the cans you can buy in Tesco.
Likewise, I love pubs. I am a regular in at least two around me - the Edinboro Castle and the York and Albany - and often stroll to others in Primrose Hill
I visit plenty of pubs further afield. Soho, Hampstead, Highgate, all over London, and I love a country pub, a coastal pub, a historic pub. I even like really down at heel sketchy pubs, they too can have intense character. As @Gardenwalker says, pubs are one of the best things about Britain, and anyone who goes around criminally tearing down 220 year old British pubs with amazing quirks will feel the wrath of many - and rightly
One main reason I haven't drunk in the Crooked House is because I have never been to South Staffs (at least as far as I can recall) so have never had the chance. A stupid argument
It’s thoroughly possible to build new housing without setting light to, and then hastily demolishing, an 18th century pub.
Though the following is true. If you want pubs to stay open, then either
1) they need enough trade to stay in business 2) they need subsidising to stay in business
Same with village shops etc.
I already believe in (2). I think pubs provide an irreplaceable and unique cultural and social function to British life.
Having said that, we don’t know how successful or unsuccessful the pub was. It was operating as a pub until July, and Leon has noted some suspicious activity that looks designed to close it down.
The Lotus Carton created quite a stir in the early ‘90s, but these days Tesla calls it’s top-of-the line cars “performance”, and they’re considerably faster than a 30-year-old saloon with a big engine.
If you can avoid US roads on Friday and Saturday nights, you will be safer, by a signficant margin.
(I apologize for possibly reviving a discussion that seemed to be going nowhere -- but I think that, in improving road safety, we have to look at the problem of impaired drivers, as well as speed limits.)
20 years back, visiting American colleagues marvelled at how drunk-driving had become socially unacceptable in Britain whereas in the US it was still considered perfectly normal to drive home and take your chance with the police. Of course, things may well have changed in the last two decades, although now there is also the huge increase in drug use.
According to my suburban friends, it’s still considered “acceptable”.
I know a few folk who live by the 'five and drive' rule...
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
I'm sure your UK would have incredible GDP figures. But it would utterly charmless, and the welfare of the people who live here no better (or even worse).
There does need to be some sort of concerted effort to save pubs, halls. There is a value in social cohesion that doesn't appear on a spreadsheet. For one, it means that you can escape your poxy flat or new build for a few hours.
If you want a concerted effort to save pubs, halls etc, then start by drinking in them. Frequent those establishments and provide them custom.
If you can't be bothered, then don't complain if they go out of business. Put your money where your mouth is and go buy a pint or two. Regularly.
You're confusing the building with the trade that was operated from the building. The building appears to have been an artifact of considerable historic interest and part of the cultural heritage of the nation. The fact that the enterprise it housed went out of business is neither here nor there. The "feeding Christians to lions" and "gladiatorial combat" businesses folded some centuries ago but that's no excuse for tearing down the Coliseum. Not many people go to the many and varied medieval churches we have either. The pub should have been listed and that it wasn't simply adds to people's anger.
The sad thing is that gay MPs still need to be in the closet. We've evolved significantly as a society over the last decade especially. Yet the fear of exposure from a society who is being whipped into a right wing frenzy to other anyone who doesn't conform to whatever the current Lee Anderson standard of behaviour is.
Except that's not what that article talks about. It talks about sexual misconduct in parliament by other gay politicians.
Did you even read it?
That’s the Kevin Spacey and Philip Schofield argument, conflating openness about sexuality with sexual misbehavior.
It’s not really a surprise that there’s sexually deviant behaviour going on in Parliament.
Careful now. Spacey has been acquitted on every charge ever brought to court.
There is also no sexual misbehaviour been proved against Schofield. The Daily Mail simply sought to create outrage amongst its sexually vanilla readership over the fact that an older man might be attracted to a younger one and visa versa. They then made up a load of bollox to justify their prurience by saying that Schofield "took advantage of his power" when it is perfectly possible that the young man might possibly have made the first advance for all they knew. It was just pure homophobia.
AIUI Schofield's situation was very different, given that he got the man a job at the company, abusing and misusing his position.
Most companies would sack an employee for such behaviour, and rightly so IMO. Whilst not illegal, it was wrong.
Yes, no, maybe, depending what actually happened. Many large companies encourage employees to recruit their friends and family. For one thing, it is cheaper than paying agency fees and more reliable because a degree of informal pre-screening has gone on. It is when there is a perceived abuse of power that things get messy, and I'm not sure that has even been alleged in the Schofield case.
"Many large companies encourage employees to recruit their friends and family."
Subject to them meeting the legal requirements and having the job open application open to all-comers, obviously ...
I'm alleging a *potential* abuse of power in the Schofield case AIUI. In fact, I'm amazed anyone cannot see the potential for abuse of power.
This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.
@Gardenwalker says, pubs are one of the best things about Britain, and anyone who goes around criminally tearing down 220 year old British pubs with amazing quirks will feel the wrath of many - and rightly
I completely agree with this incidentally.
But then I'm not the one who regularly says to only build on brownfield land. Quite the opposite.
If you want to preserve old buildings and pubs especially, then that means new developments can't happen on that old land, so need to happen elsewhere instead.
There is no mythical bank of brownfield land ready for development that excludes old buildings or pubs.
It’s time BartyBobbins to accept that he has the aesthetic and cultural sense of a spastic frog, and to leave discussions around national heritage to everyone else.
lol
"Spastic Frog" is very good. Somewhat unwoke, but proper funny
OK now I must channel my Crooked House outrage into productive work. Later
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
I'm sure your UK would have incredible GDP figures. But it would utterly charmless, and the welfare of the people who live here no better (or even worse).
There does need to be some sort of concerted effort to save pubs, halls. There is a value in social cohesion that doesn't appear on a spreadsheet. For one, it means that you can escape your poxy flat or new build for a few hours.
If you want a concerted effort to save pubs, halls etc, then start by drinking in them. Frequent those establishments and provide them custom.
If you can't be bothered, then don't complain if they go out of business. Put your money where your mouth is and go buy a pint or two. Regularly.
If they had better cycle provision I'd be more likely to buy a pint.
But seriously - I am a regular pub goer and claim to have singlehandedly kept my local pizzeria going during lockdown. I just wish the pints were as cheap as the cans you can buy in Tesco.
Likewise, I love pubs. I am a regular in at least two around me - the Edinboro Castle and the York and Albany - and often stroll to others in Primrose Hill
I visit plenty of pubs further afield. Soho, Hampstead, Highgate, all over London, and I love a country pub, a coastal pub, a historic pub. I even like really down at heel sketchy pubs, they too can have intense character. As @Gardenwalker says, pubs are one of the best things about Britain, and anyone who goes around criminally tearing down 220 year old British pubs with amazing quirks will feel the wrath of many - and rightly
One main reason I haven't drunk in the Crooked House is because I have never been to South Staffs (at least as far as I can recall) so have never had the chance. A stupid argument
Tories need more like him. Instinctive politicians
I believe you can make such an order if and only if you can prove it was deliberately demolished. His letter rather pathetically skirts round the fact that he knows this perfectly well.
I think we can be fairly sure it was “deliberately demolished” as here is the footage of it being deliberately demolished by a great big JCB, a day after the fire.
This all smacks of panic to me. Someone torched it and was frightened by the massive online reaction which got police and politicians involved, now they’ve kicked off an even bigger reaction
It won’t go away now
Ah OK the JCB may have been a mistake. if they have any sense they will have a surveyor's report after the fire saying JFC this buiding is lethally dangerous and needs demolished asap. BUT the point about the Punch Bowl is that it was listed, this is not. Not even sure they needed to torch it, unless they were getting in quick ahead of a fast track listing application (if such a thing is possible).
The Georgian Group was pursuing a quick listing with the support of locals
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marathon’s the brewers
No, you have got me wrong. I think it absolutely stinks, but I think they will get away with it.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
One of the reasons it became less popular as a pub is that there was strangely sustained campaign of fly-tipping alll around it, making it hard to access and sometimes unpleasant to visit: I actually learned that from Gavin Williamson's Facebook page. And then in recent months it was suspiciously attacked so that its kitchen and loos were almost unusable....
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
This is what's wrong with this country. The building wasn't listed, if the owners wanted to demolish it, they ought to just be able to send in bulldozers and it should be none of anyone else's business.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
I'm sure your UK would have incredible GDP figures. But it would utterly charmless, and the welfare of the people who live here no better (or even worse).
There does need to be some sort of concerted effort to save pubs, halls. There is a value in social cohesion that doesn't appear on a spreadsheet. For one, it means that you can escape your poxy flat or new build for a few hours.
If you want a concerted effort to save pubs, halls etc, then start by drinking in them. Frequent those establishments and provide them custom.
If you can't be bothered, then don't complain if they go out of business. Put your money where your mouth is and go buy a pint or two. Regularly.
If they had better cycle provision I'd be more likely to buy a pint.
But seriously - I am a regular pub goer and claim to have singlehandedly kept my local pizzeria going during lockdown. I just wish the pints were as cheap as the cans you can buy in Tesco.
Likewise, I love pubs. I am a regular in at least two around me - the Edinboro Castle and the York and Albany - and often stroll to others in Primrose Hill
I visit plenty of pubs further afield. Soho, Hampstead, Highgate, all over London, and I love a country pub, a coastal pub, a historic pub. I even like really down at heel sketchy pubs, they too can have intense character. As @Gardenwalker says, pubs are one of the best things about Britain, and anyone who goes around criminally tearing down 220 year old British pubs with amazing quirks will feel the wrath of many - and rightly
One main reason I haven't drunk in the Crooked House is because I have never been to South Staffs (at least as far as I can recall) so have never had the chance. A stupid argument
OK I have changed my mind, officially cross about this now.
I hope they didn't realise how clever forensics is about investigating fires these days.
One other item for the timeline is that about a month ago the Crooked House had to close following a "burglary" in which nothing was stolen but a lot of damage was caused. Let's hope the police will be investigating all the events leading up to its becoming a pile of bricks, and bringing those responsible to justice.
@Gardenwalker says, pubs are one of the best things about Britain, and anyone who goes around criminally tearing down 220 year old British pubs with amazing quirks will feel the wrath of many - and rightly
I completely agree with this incidentally.
But then I'm not the one who regularly says to only build on brownfield land. Quite the opposite.
If you want to preserve old buildings and pubs especially, then that means new developments can't happen on that old land, so need to happen elsewhere instead.
There is no mythical bank of brownfield land ready for development that excludes old buildings or pubs.
You want to preserve the best of the past, not everything, because much of what we have is fairly rubbish. In fact, many areas we now love and want to preserve in aspic came about because of a process of demolishing and rebuilding of old structures, leaving only the best.
Which is why we have a listing process; and even if a structure is unlisted, you need to serve a notice to demolish it ahead of time, giving the local authority a chance to object.
Comments
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/07/britains-wonkiest-pub-crooked-house-burnt-down-to-be-listed/
You’ve got this wrong. It’s definitely a highly suspicious sequence of events. Which also implicates Marston’s the brewers
They might take some indirect flak on lack of due diligence into the buyer... but how much due diligence does anyone perform on someone buying their property? Are they offering to pay more than anyone else is offering? Tick. Have they transferred the funds to my account? Tick.
We already knew there was a groping problem. It needs to be stamped out. Lets assume that this will happen now that there is an awful lot of focus on it. Groping by any gender on any gender isn't the issue I am raising.
Mind you it was a fugly building and I don't feel that its loss hugely diminishes me. If people valued it they should have drunk a lot of beer there on a regular basis, and it would still be a pub.
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/overview/crashes-by-time-of-day-and-day-of-week/
If you can avoid US roads on Friday and Saturday nights, you will be safer, by a signficant margin.
(I apologize for possibly reviving a discussion that seemed to be going nowhere -- but I think that, in improving road safety, we have to look at the problem of impaired drivers, as well as speed limits.)
But there's nothing wrong with that. This is what big city mayors are for. Harnessing popular feeling. Good for him. If only the Tories had someone with that skill and instinct as a candidate in London
The pub wasn't even in his political parish. The actual MP for Dudley and the pub, who has remained pitifully inert and silent is....
Gavin Williamson
You are trying to excuse or minimise sexual misconduct, on spartist grounds. Despite what you think, society is not in a very real sense the root cause of this conduct.
It sounds to me like these last few days have merely been the culmination of a years long process of making it unviable as a pub, so it will be sold, so it can then be torched and demolished, and then someone makes an absolute mint turning it all into housing
And for once we as a nation should say No, fuck that, and put these greedy c*nts in jail, as an example. Sorted
In Britain, everything really does come back to lack of housing.
EMBARGOED UNTIL 1PM, 8 AUGUST 2023
There was a crooked man, and he walked a crooked mile,
He found a crooked sixpence against a crooked stile;
He bought a crooked cat which caught a crooked mouse,
And they all lived together in a little crooked house.
Which burned down. Probably a faulty fireplace or something.
ENDS
Notes for editors:
All enquiries to SIR Gavin Williamson MP c/o House of Commons.
I was querying why MPs are still in the closet in 2023. Whether those closeted MPs are gropers or not. Groping is bad. Being gay isn't bad - or shouldn't be seen to be. And yet...
Nationalise it! We used to do things like that. Rolls-Royce only exists because we nationalised it in the 1970's. Why are we so wedded to the policies of the neoliberal era when they plainly don't work any more???
All on Starmer's LOTO watch. Starmer fans please explain.
Postpone the GE for 5 years.
...and they all lived together till he fell off his yacht.
https://twitter.com/britishmuseum/status/1688872954514288640
I mean, I get the politics of intervening in an issue that isn't actually in his remit but closely borders his patch and which people in his patch are naturally concerned about. And I quite like Street - I think he's a reasonably effective metropolitan Mayor.
But it is a pretty inexpensive bit of politics for him, and one wonders what his approach would be if the pub was in fact in his patch. As it is, his authority doesn't miss out on the CIL/s106 levy from development on the site, and doesn't face the legal bill for planning appeals. He also gets to say "well, if you'd been in West Mids Combined Authority, things might have panned out differently". So it's a bit of a free swim.
For example: After Angela Davis had run for vice president on the Communist ticket, she was still often referred to as an "activist", or even a "civil rights activist". Recently I caught a local journalist referring to Seattle's Trotskyite Kshama Sawant as a "liberal".
And our journalists are unwilling to ask obvious questions of politicians they sympathize with, even when those politicians label themselves. For example: Bernie Sanders. He describes himself as a Democratic Socialist, but is seldom, if ever, asked which of those two is most important to him. (His honeymoon in the USSR gives a hint that would be worth following up. As far as I know, he never met with Solzhenitsyn, though the two lived in the same small state, for years.)
I generally avoid using the liberal label, because of this confusion. (Though I will sometimes refer to "classical liberals", when I think it appropriate.)
PLUS he is using his pulpit to raise the profile of a scandal that has clearly upset LOTS of people on social media. The various pics and videos are going viral. The pressure on the coppers and the council and all the dodgy companies involved needs to be maintained
Pubs are one of the best things about this country.
They should be heavily subsidised, as France does to its bistros and the US does to its strip malls.
The “developer” should be forced to re-build it.
With his teeth.
What a churl, what an absolute boor.
Yet Casino comes on here, ranting about the “libs”.
The solution to pretty much any issue in Britain starts with terminating the current government with extreme prejudice.
We have a chronic shortage of housing in this country and any time anyone suggests building on greenfield land people scream out no, redevelop brownfield instead.
Now there's a plot of brownfield land available for redevelopment and there is outrage at that too.
Which is it? Do you want green land developed? Or "brownfield" which means tearing down old buildings, just like this.
And if you want a pub to stay open, best bet is to go and drink there. Not never go then complain an establishment you never drank at has shut down.
That was the allegation on the Jenners fire (where a fire officer was killed) and was quickly debunked.
It doesn’t burn down.
1939-1945: Luftwaffe rains incendiary bombs on the West Midlands. It doesn’t burn down.
July 2023: It sells to property developers.
August 2023: The Crooked House burns down. And is demolished.
https://twitter.com/trevorbmbagency/status/1688830687158161408
OK I have changed my mind, officially cross about this now.
I hope they didn't realise how clever forensics is about investigating fires these days.
Someone burned it down and then bulldozed it to destroy the evidence.
There does need to be some sort of concerted effort to save pubs, halls. There is a value in social cohesion that doesn't appear on a spreadsheet. For one, it means that you can escape your poxy flat or new build for a few hours.
If this happened in London, Sadiq Khan would probably welcome the space for a putative trans knitting co-operative.
It’s thoroughly possible to build new housing without setting light to, and then hastily demolishing, an 18th century pub.
But yes. Either Anderson said this with the backing of the party, in which case they're all bloody disgraces. Or he said it and won't get sanctioned, because the leadership is frit.
Which would suggest that cruising at speeds over 20mph wouldn’t be a problem.
Incidentally - in the electric cars I have driven, they seem to be comfortable across all speeds. They don’t mind crawling along at 5mph or doing… lots. Is that standard with electric power trains or good engineering?
Not on greenfield lands apparently?
But not on unlisted brownfield lands either?
So where exactly?
As for your other suggestions, I refer you to my last comment.
It's incredibly easy in Northern Ireland, apparently, but around London - forget it.
It’s not necessary to do so to build new houses.
As pointed out upthread, the pub could have been incorporated into the development.
You choose to ignore this to make one of your nutty arguments, like you pretended to declare pictures of mass car parking as lovely.
If you can't be bothered, then don't complain if they go out of business. Put your money where your mouth is and go buy a pint or two. Regularly.
But it is also an obvious cause for Conservatives, who love our nation's history, want to CONSERVE the best of it, and despise hasty and ugly change, especially in architecture and culture.
So we can all get together and hate the villains, and see them humiliated and bankrupted, and also forced to rebuild the pub, naked in the winter. Hopefully
The only one of us who doesn't care is the mad @BartholomewRoberts who wants to turn every inch of Britian into red brick semi detached Barratt homes, just like his fuck-ugly gaff.
But seriously - I am a regular pub goer and claim to have singlehandedly kept my local pizzeria going during lockdown. I just wish the pints were as cheap as the cans you can buy in Tesco.
Especially given how often we hear about brownfield being the solution. What more do you want, here is brownfield land, not listed, which was sold for redevelopment.
But apparently that's still not enough.
And if we can't tear down old buildings, then new buildings have to go on greenfield land, not brownfield.
Probably has a segregated cycle lane and a 17th century pub too.
They are utterly vile - and par for the course. Female MPs face much the same.
Labour MP Chris Bryant says that he has been sexually assaulted by 6 different men whilst an MP.
https://twitter.com/UnityNewsNet/status/1688538959062712320
Sadly, totally irrelevant to my post.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/mar/21/rising-from-the-rubble-london-pub-rebuilt-brick-by-brick-after-bulldozing
So why exactly are you shocked that it's an LTN estate when I have told you that repeatedly. And it's what I've explicitly said we need to BUILD MORE OF?
Seems more like you've just not been listening to me?
Kidding btw
Still, you pop in here and it's all just the same, which is oddly reassuring.
I'd note, though that the reason most councils are reluctant to pursue such cases more energetically is that doing so can be very expensive for them. They - and their planning departments - are severely resource constrained.
1) they need enough trade to stay in business
2) they need subsidising to stay in business
Same with village shops etc.
I visit plenty of pubs further afield. Soho, Hampstead, Highgate, all over London, and I love a country pub, a coastal pub, a historic pub. I even like really down at heel sketchy pubs, they too can have intense character. As @Gardenwalker says, pubs are one of the best things about Britain, and anyone who goes around criminally tearing down 220 year old British pubs with amazing quirks will feel the wrath of many - and rightly
One main reason I haven't drunk in the Crooked House is because I have never been to South Staffs (at least as far as I can recall) so have never had the chance. A stupid argument
I think pubs provide an irreplaceable and unique cultural and social function to British life.
Having said that, we don’t know how successful or unsuccessful the pub was. It was operating as a pub until July, and Leon has noted some suspicious activity that looks designed to close it down.
"The Lotus Carlton / Omega Sedan Was a World-Beating PR Nightmare", Jason Cammisa, Revelations Ep. 28, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYfyPtA9sNI
Subject to them meeting the legal requirements and having the job open application open to all-comers, obviously ...
I'm alleging a *potential* abuse of power in the Schofield case AIUI. In fact, I'm amazed anyone cannot see the potential for abuse of power.
This farcical update from the Mary Rose museum which uses various objects in its collection to bang on, utterly tangentially, about queer identity and being non-binary.
https://twitter.com/philiphensher/status/1688885747275763712?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg
It’s a form of insanity.
But then I'm not the one who regularly says to only build on brownfield land. Quite the opposite.
If you want to preserve old buildings and pubs especially, then that means new developments can't happen on that old land, so need to happen elsewhere instead.
There is no mythical bank of brownfield land ready for development that excludes old buildings or pubs.
"Spastic Frog" is very good. Somewhat unwoke, but proper funny
OK now I must channel my Crooked House outrage into productive work. Later
https://www.edinborocastlepub.co.uk/#/
Which is why we have a listing process; and even if a structure is unlisted, you need to serve a notice to demolish it ahead of time, giving the local authority a chance to object.
e.g. https://www.eastcambs.gov.uk/planning/demolition
(This comment in no way defends the burning of the pub.)