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The Tories working hard to be the nasty party once again – politicalbetting.com

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  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126
    Carnyx said:

    Scottish loser Murray knocked out of Wimbledon by Tsitsipas :lol:

    [second thoughts] Sorry, Farooq, Carnyx, Uniondivvie at al.!

    So? I'm not someone who thinks it reflects on one's amour propre and nor do I apply the Tebbit or Sillars tests.

    Though Mr Murray has done pretty well to keep going so long. Good for him (and for Mr Tsitsipas too.
    Sir Andrew remains a legend an an ornament to the game.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    rcs1000 said:

    And completely off topic...


    Pictures of pussies might be a more accurate or at least comprehensive description.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,774
    Carnyx said:

    geoffw said:

    Carnyx said:

    geoffw said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the BMA PG doctors have called off their strike in Scotland to assess an offer from the Scottish DoH.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1677318312613519367?t=CaXmoVb60_G2CCLHtb5www&s=19

    Not even that huge an offer, given the deficit.
    It will be interesting, as that would be about a 15% premium over England.

    I wonder what Scotland will offer Consultants.
    Yeah, but they pay a lot more tax up here.
    Not 15% more!
    They'll pay more than 15% more tax than they were paying before

    You might want to rethink that ...
    No

    The discussion was about Scottish tax rates vs England (or E&W), so there is evidently some confusion.

    Paying more than 15% more tax than the previous year is inevitable on any progressive system. Pension contributions, though ...
    Oh dear, deviation not allowed here
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    geoffw said:

    Carnyx said:

    geoffw said:

    Carnyx said:

    geoffw said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the BMA PG doctors have called off their strike in Scotland to assess an offer from the Scottish DoH.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1677318312613519367?t=CaXmoVb60_G2CCLHtb5www&s=19

    Not even that huge an offer, given the deficit.
    It will be interesting, as that would be about a 15% premium over England.

    I wonder what Scotland will offer Consultants.
    Yeah, but they pay a lot more tax up here.
    Not 15% more!
    They'll pay more than 15% more tax than they were paying before

    You might want to rethink that ...
    No

    The discussion was about Scottish tax rates vs England (or E&W), so there is evidently some confusion.

    Paying more than 15% more tax than the previous year is inevitable on any progressive system. Pension contributions, though ...
    Oh dear, deviation not allowed here
    Oh, it's fine, just so long as we eventually work out which sidings we have ended up on after the points! All part of the fun.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    Apparently the writer of “the email” is some kind of pest. There’s a harassment case.

    OMG. Any source on this that it would be appropriate to post?

    This was the third main possibility.

    1 was exy or somebody who is very close to her and who feels her pain.
    2 was a highly capable disinterested professional.
    3 was a nutter who only knows about these people from the media and who is at least borderline psychotic, capable of handling facts but also prone to believing that false stuff he has imagined is true.

    I know of somebody who'd be a fit for 3, a deranged psychology and computer science academic who for many years has plagued a chat site I go to, ranting like a m*f* about what he believes are the extra-marital affairs and unlawfully youngster-focused behaviours of other chatters. He has also carried out harassment off-site. The guy is clever, technically sussed, and highly manipulative. I've always expected he'll end up in jail. Not saying it's him, but such types exist and it could be.
    I highly doubt it was @malcolmg, but you never know.
    Joking aside. The horrifying levels of behaviour that "stalking" is used to describe....

    Most should know of the phenomenon where, after a notorious crime is committed, various sad cases show up to confess to them. All should know of this, since it is a major source of miscarriages of justice - despite them often being known to the police as serial confessors, they become a useful way to close a case quickly.

    This happens in many countries.

    There is a horrible equivalent, less spoken of, of people who elaborately stalk and accuse *other* people of crimes. One lady I know was relentlessly stalked by it turned out, a female co-worker, who made elaborate attempts to frame her for various things, stole her identity and a bunch of mad, crazy shit beyond that. In many ways, it could have been worse, if the stalker had been less batshit - then the accusations and faked evidence could have actually worked.

    The correct answer when someone says "I can't belief that someone would fake a report/accusation of crime X" is "It has happened. Many times."
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,417
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unpopular said:

    felix said:

    Speaking of education, from Wednesday, Andrea Jenkyns advises striking teachers:-

    Children suffered enough with their education during lockdown, teachers should put children first and not strike. Why dont they strike during summer holidays when kids wont have to miss lessons!
    https://twitter.com/andreajenkyns/status/1676702779736309766

    She has a point given how hard teachers claim to have to work during the holiday periods!
    To be honest, if they stopped doing the extras outside of their hours, the whole system could not cope. It would be suggestible as a form of industrial action save for the fact it's not very visible.
    I’m willing to bet it will happen this year though. More unadapted rubbish from Twinkl or Oak and no changes made for disabled students because the remaining staff either haven’t the time or can’t be bothered will become even more prevalent next year. There are of course dud teachers who never bother to work outside lessons and so nobody will notice the difference, but overall things will deteriorate.

    That’s not going to be great for standards in itself, of course.

    I suppose the one saving grace is that most materials and courses for the new GCSE will have bedded in somewhat.

    The other thing that looks set to be killed stone dead as a result is extra-curricula. No more plays, or concerts, or choirs. No more sports clubs. No more chess or debating societies. And that will again be bad for standards. Lack of socialisation, physical and mental development.

    Starmer’s right to be worried about this withering but I see no sign at the moment he has any meaningful solutions of his own.
    If the teaching assistants insisted on taking their (unpaid) breaks in full, there'd be no outside time on the playground at all for anyone either.
    Like care assistants aren't paid for travel time between clients' houses. But PBTories assure us we have full employment. Just a shame the employment isn't fully paid for.
    Isn't it really weird that a sector that treats its workers like shite has a real problem with recruitment? It is almost as if there was some connection.
    We have been repeatedly told by Good People that the only possible solution is to import the Right* People who will work for those wages & conditions.

    As opposed to Gammon Brexiter Neon Fascist Racist Transphobic Homophobic Lazy Scum. Who spend their days sliding down the vast piles of vast unemployment benefit/state pension money in their mansions. Instead of working the said minimum wage jobs like the serfs they are supposed to be.

    So the only decent thing is to make the Gammon Brexiter Neon Fascist Racist Transphobic Homophobic Lazy Scum into soap.

    That and bringing back Scottish style slavery, so that they can be forced to work (the ones we don't make into soap).

    *Bit like Right Whales - they are Right for us, not so much for their own benefit....
    P. 233 here refers. Rather a good artivle, but I hesitate to recommend it here as it might give the Government ideas.

    [journal issue downloads - can't work out how to do it else]
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiT0py7jv3_AhUKIMAKHTJ_CD04FBAWegQIBxAB&url=https://www.balh.org.uk/download?file=publication-tlh-the-local-historian-volume-37-number-4-november-2007&pub=tlh&usg=AOvVaw0Q6rnPxnDTtvlJCkuUoDGG&opi=89978449
    Like this: https://www.balh.org.uk/publication-tlh-the-local-historian-volume-37-number-4-november-2007
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    viewcode said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unpopular said:

    felix said:

    Speaking of education, from Wednesday, Andrea Jenkyns advises striking teachers:-

    Children suffered enough with their education during lockdown, teachers should put children first and not strike. Why dont they strike during summer holidays when kids wont have to miss lessons!
    https://twitter.com/andreajenkyns/status/1676702779736309766

    She has a point given how hard teachers claim to have to work during the holiday periods!
    To be honest, if they stopped doing the extras outside of their hours, the whole system could not cope. It would be suggestible as a form of industrial action save for the fact it's not very visible.
    I’m willing to bet it will happen this year though. More unadapted rubbish from Twinkl or Oak and no changes made for disabled students because the remaining staff either haven’t the time or can’t be bothered will become even more prevalent next year. There are of course dud teachers who never bother to work outside lessons and so nobody will notice the difference, but overall things will deteriorate.

    That’s not going to be great for standards in itself, of course.

    I suppose the one saving grace is that most materials and courses for the new GCSE will have bedded in somewhat.

    The other thing that looks set to be killed stone dead as a result is extra-curricula. No more plays, or concerts, or choirs. No more sports clubs. No more chess or debating societies. And that will again be bad for standards. Lack of socialisation, physical and mental development.

    Starmer’s right to be worried about this withering but I see no sign at the moment he has any meaningful solutions of his own.
    If the teaching assistants insisted on taking their (unpaid) breaks in full, there'd be no outside time on the playground at all for anyone either.
    Like care assistants aren't paid for travel time between clients' houses. But PBTories assure us we have full employment. Just a shame the employment isn't fully paid for.
    Isn't it really weird that a sector that treats its workers like shite has a real problem with recruitment? It is almost as if there was some connection.
    We have been repeatedly told by Good People that the only possible solution is to import the Right* People who will work for those wages & conditions.

    As opposed to Gammon Brexiter Neon Fascist Racist Transphobic Homophobic Lazy Scum. Who spend their days sliding down the vast piles of vast unemployment benefit/state pension money in their mansions. Instead of working the said minimum wage jobs like the serfs they are supposed to be.

    So the only decent thing is to make the Gammon Brexiter Neon Fascist Racist Transphobic Homophobic Lazy Scum into soap.

    That and bringing back Scottish style slavery, so that they can be forced to work (the ones we don't make into soap).

    *Bit like Right Whales - they are Right for us, not so much for their own benefit....
    P. 233 here refers. Rather a good artivle, but I hesitate to recommend it here as it might give the Government ideas.

    [journal issue downloads - can't work out how to do it else]
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiT0py7jv3_AhUKIMAKHTJ_CD04FBAWegQIBxAB&url=https://www.balh.org.uk/download?file=publication-tlh-the-local-historian-volume-37-number-4-november-2007&pub=tlh&usg=AOvVaw0Q6rnPxnDTtvlJCkuUoDGG&opi=89978449
    Like this: https://www.balh.org.uk/publication-tlh-the-local-historian-volume-37-number-4-november-2007
    Ah, thank you!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    For the purposes of BANTZ alone, seeing the Tories reduced to 15 seats would be intensely entertaining

    Imagine the backwoods cranks and weirdos that would survive, like Japs deep in the Indonesian jungle

    I reckon the party would die at that point. New right wing parties would emerge

    If you go full on bantz with Electoral Claculus (50:25 or something bonkers like that plus a slug of tactical voting), and squeeze the Conservatives down to 23 seats, you get:

    Surrey East Claire Coutinho
    Louth and Horncastle Victoria Atkins
    Cotswolds South Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
    Arundel and South Downs Andrew Griffith
    Chesham and Amersham Cheryl Gillan
    Dorset North Simon Hoare
    Essex North West Kemi Badenoch
    Surrey Heath Michael Gove
    East Grinstead and Uckfield Unknown (new seat)
    New Forest West Desmond Swayne
    South Holland and The Deepings John Hayes
    Wetherby and Easingwold Alec Shelbrooke
    Stratford-on-Avon Nadhim Zahawi
    Hampshire East Damian Hinds
    Hampshire North East Ranil Jayawardena
    Beaconsfield Joy Morrissey
    Rayleigh and Wickford Mark Francois
    Kingswinford and South Staffordshire Gavin Williamson
    Christchurch Christopher Chope
    Castle Point Rebecca Harris
    Maldon John Whittingdale
    Weald of Kent Unknown (new seat)
    Brentwood and Ongar Alex Burghart
    Exmouth and Exeter East Simon Jupp
    Godalming and Ash Unknown (new seat)
    Dorset Mid and Poole North Michael Tomlinson
    Dumfries and Galloway Alister Jack
    Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine Andrew Bowie
    Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey Unknown (changed seat)
    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale David Mundell
    Gordon and Buchan Unknown (changed seat)
    Aberdeenshire North and Moray East David Duguid
    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk John Lamont

    Good luck getting a shadow cabinet out of that.
    Shadow cab would be LD. The Tories would be 3rd or 4th party.
    Here is the current straight line trend since the 2019 GE.


    Put that in Electoral Calculus and you indeed get the Tories on 16 seats as 4th party with the Official Opposition being the Lib Dems.




    Nice free and easy extrapolation there (I thought you'd know better). If you extrapolate the yellows and greens in the same way you'll have a missing 15% or so to play with at the end date. That'll be SNP plus Reform no doubt.

    538 has done some great work on opinion polls, and last week's (or month's) move has no predictive power whatsover.

    In other words, the trend is not your friend.

    (Here you go: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-misunderstanding-of-momentum/)
    Yup

    The current situation, it that the Tory party is "riding" on their inner core vote. Because of recent bad news/fuck ups. Labour is approaching maximum vote. Starmer has been dealt a very good hand *and* is playing it well.

    It is unlikely that Labour will get 45% at the election, but they might be able to do that.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983

    DavidL said:

    Commented on this on the last thread. Anyone who thinks that this is a reasonable way to behave really shouldn’t be allowed to take any decisions that affect vulnerable people about anything. Period. They do not have the basic humanity to do so.

    The Conservative difficulty is this.

    There is a proportion of the population that is, for want of a better word, nasty. Selfish, cruel. Lacking the imagination to think that they might ever be at the bottom of the heap through no real fault of their own.

    They're not all Conservatives- think of trade unionists who are happy to screw over other workers to get more of the pie for themselves. And even now, most Conservatives aren't nasty. And most of us reveal streaks of nasty when threatened, and these are threatening times.

    But when a big party is scrabbling round in the low to mid twenties percent in the polls, the temptation to go after the nasty vote is blooming strong. Because they're votes and they're not hard to grab.

    And right now, they're the most reliable votes the Conservatives have got.
    They have the nasty selfish and cruel vote in the bag.

    The danger with the cartoon is that some of them might like kids.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    ydoethur said:

    Unpopular said:

    felix said:

    Speaking of education, from Wednesday, Andrea Jenkyns advises striking teachers:-

    Children suffered enough with their education during lockdown, teachers should put children first and not strike. Why dont they strike during summer holidays when kids wont have to miss lessons!
    https://twitter.com/andreajenkyns/status/1676702779736309766

    She has a point given how hard teachers claim to have to work during the holiday periods!
    To be honest, if they stopped doing the extras outside of their hours, the whole system could not cope. It would be suggestible as a form of industrial action save for the fact it's not very visible.
    I’m willing to bet it will happen this year though. More unadapted rubbish from Twinkl or Oak and no changes made for disabled students because the remaining staff either haven’t the time or can’t be bothered will become even more prevalent next year. There are of course dud teachers who never bother to work outside lessons and so nobody will notice the difference, but overall things will deteriorate.

    That’s not going to be great for standards in itself, of course.

    I suppose the one saving grace is that most materials and courses for the new GCSE will have bedded in somewhat.

    The other thing that looks set to be killed stone dead as a result is extra-curricula. No more plays, or concerts, or choirs. No more sports clubs. No more chess or debating societies. And that will again be bad for standards. Lack of socialisation, physical and mental development.

    Starmer’s right to be worried about this withering but I see no sign at the moment he has any meaningful solutions of his own.
    Anecdotally, already happening. Thing One was at an enrichment thing on Monday. Lots of learning to get there, nice day out somewhere inspiring at the end.

    In the past, it's been queuing round the block to get in (including last year, so it's not a Covid effect). This year, very empty.

    Some of that is goodwill being ground away. Some of it is that, thanks to the increasing number of gaps in the staffing structure, the remaining staff are run off their feet keeping all the essential plates spinning.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    Apparently the writer of “the email” is some kind of pest. There’s a harassment case.

    OMG. Any source on this that it would be appropriate to post?

    This was the third main possibility.

    1 was exy or somebody who is very close to her and who feels her pain.
    2 was a highly capable disinterested professional.
    3 was a nutter who only knows about these people from the media and who is at least borderline psychotic, capable of handling facts but also prone to believing that false stuff he has imagined is true.

    I know of somebody who'd be a fit for 3, a deranged psychology and computer science academic who for many years has plagued a chat site I go to, ranting like a m*f* about what he believes are the extra-marital affairs and unlawfully youngster-focused behaviours of other chatters. He has also carried out harassment off-site. The guy is clever, technically sussed, and highly manipulative. I've always expected he'll end up in jail. Not saying it's him, but such types exist and it could be.
    I highly doubt it was @malcolmg, but you never know.
    Who is libelling me now and what for, I thought the topic was nasty Tories.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    edited July 2023
    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,318

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    For the purposes of BANTZ alone, seeing the Tories reduced to 15 seats would be intensely entertaining

    Imagine the backwoods cranks and weirdos that would survive, like Japs deep in the Indonesian jungle

    I reckon the party would die at that point. New right wing parties would emerge

    If you go full on bantz with Electoral Claculus (50:25 or something bonkers like that plus a slug of tactical voting), and squeeze the Conservatives down to 23 seats, you get:

    Surrey East Claire Coutinho
    Louth and Horncastle Victoria Atkins
    Cotswolds South Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
    Arundel and South Downs Andrew Griffith
    Chesham and Amersham Cheryl Gillan
    Dorset North Simon Hoare
    Essex North West Kemi Badenoch
    Surrey Heath Michael Gove
    East Grinstead and Uckfield Unknown (new seat)
    New Forest West Desmond Swayne
    South Holland and The Deepings John Hayes
    Wetherby and Easingwold Alec Shelbrooke
    Stratford-on-Avon Nadhim Zahawi
    Hampshire East Damian Hinds
    Hampshire North East Ranil Jayawardena
    Beaconsfield Joy Morrissey
    Rayleigh and Wickford Mark Francois
    Kingswinford and South Staffordshire Gavin Williamson
    Christchurch Christopher Chope
    Castle Point Rebecca Harris
    Maldon John Whittingdale
    Weald of Kent Unknown (new seat)
    Brentwood and Ongar Alex Burghart
    Exmouth and Exeter East Simon Jupp
    Godalming and Ash Unknown (new seat)
    Dorset Mid and Poole North Michael Tomlinson
    Dumfries and Galloway Alister Jack
    Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine Andrew Bowie
    Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey Unknown (changed seat)
    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale David Mundell
    Gordon and Buchan Unknown (changed seat)
    Aberdeenshire North and Moray East David Duguid
    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk John Lamont

    Good luck getting a shadow cabinet out of that.
    Shadow cab would be LD. The Tories would be 3rd or 4th party.
    Here is the current straight line trend since the 2019 GE.


    Put that in Electoral Calculus and you indeed get the Tories on 16 seats as 4th party with the Official Opposition being the Lib Dems.




    Those numbers make the right wing case for PR.

    Tories would still have double the voteshare of the LDs even then but less seats.

    The combined Right of Tories and RefUK would have over a quarter of the votes but less than 5 percent of MPs.

    Labour would have only half the votes but over 80 per cent of MPs with FPTP
    It's not just theoretical. In Richmond on Thames the Lib Dems have just over half the votes but over 85% of the Councillors. The Tories have only one Councillor (and he is 92 years old!)

    It's plainly ridiculous and indefensible. I hope you are supportive of the case for PR.
    Well I did vote for AV in 2011. I am open to PR. FPTP benefits Labour as much as the Tories when they are doing well but hits the Tories worse when they are doing badly. Minor parties like RefUK and the Greens also deserve more MPs
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,558
    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    Sure. But "dude" is. like, cringeville Arizona. Daddy-O.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Squeaky Osborne became markedly less squeaky....
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,774
    Foxy said:
    It can only damage their investment in whiter than white teeth

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    For the purposes of BANTZ alone, seeing the Tories reduced to 15 seats would be intensely entertaining

    Imagine the backwoods cranks and weirdos that would survive, like Japs deep in the Indonesian jungle

    I reckon the party would die at that point. New right wing parties would emerge

    If you go full on bantz with Electoral Claculus (50:25 or something bonkers like that plus a slug of tactical voting), and squeeze the Conservatives down to 23 seats, you get:

    Surrey East Claire Coutinho
    Louth and Horncastle Victoria Atkins
    Cotswolds South Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
    Arundel and South Downs Andrew Griffith
    Chesham and Amersham Cheryl Gillan
    Dorset North Simon Hoare
    Essex North West Kemi Badenoch
    Surrey Heath Michael Gove
    East Grinstead and Uckfield Unknown (new seat)
    New Forest West Desmond Swayne
    South Holland and The Deepings John Hayes
    Wetherby and Easingwold Alec Shelbrooke
    Stratford-on-Avon Nadhim Zahawi
    Hampshire East Damian Hinds
    Hampshire North East Ranil Jayawardena
    Beaconsfield Joy Morrissey
    Rayleigh and Wickford Mark Francois
    Kingswinford and South Staffordshire Gavin Williamson
    Christchurch Christopher Chope
    Castle Point Rebecca Harris
    Maldon John Whittingdale
    Weald of Kent Unknown (new seat)
    Brentwood and Ongar Alex Burghart
    Exmouth and Exeter East Simon Jupp
    Godalming and Ash Unknown (new seat)
    Dorset Mid and Poole North Michael Tomlinson
    Dumfries and Galloway Alister Jack
    Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine Andrew Bowie
    Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey Unknown (changed seat)
    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale David Mundell
    Gordon and Buchan Unknown (changed seat)
    Aberdeenshire North and Moray East David Duguid
    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk John Lamont

    Good luck getting a shadow cabinet out of that.
    Shadow cab would be LD. The Tories would be 3rd or 4th party.
    Here is the current straight line trend since the 2019 GE.


    Put that in Electoral Calculus and you indeed get the Tories on 16 seats as 4th party with the Official Opposition being the Lib Dems.




    Those numbers make the right wing case for PR.

    Tories would still have double the voteshare of the LDs even then but less seats.

    The combined Right of Tories and RefUK would have over a quarter of the votes but less than 5 percent of MPs.

    Labour would have only half the votes but over 80 per cent of MPs with FPTP
    It's not just theoretical. In Richmond on Thames the Lib Dems have just over half the votes but over 85% of the Councillors. The Tories have only one Councillor (and he is 92 years old!)

    It's plainly ridiculous and indefensible. I hope you are supportive of the case for PR.
    Well I did vote for AV in 2011. I am open to PR. FPTP benefits Labour as much as the Tories when they are doing well but hits the Tories worse when they are doing badly. Minor parties like RefUK and the Greens also deserve more MPs
    I think it's time we had PR for local elections - the examples of Richmond and Newham to name but two show the incredible disparity between seats and votes. If you want to see how stupid FPTP gets look at the results in Bracknell Forest in May.

    The Conservatives won 42% of the vote but ended up with 10 seats, Labour won 30% of the vote and 22 seats. One of the arguments used against PR is parties making "sordid little deals" - well, that also happens with FPTP as well so let's just have PR at local elections and be done with it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023
    More than a third of foods labelled vegan contained animal products, research has found

    ..There is currently no legal definition for vegan food, allowing firms to market their products as being so even if they contain dairy or egg. And there is no threshold requirement for animal-derived products in the UK or the EU, unlike the prerequisite for trace amounts of gluten...

    https://www.theguardian.com/food/2023/jul/07/one-in-three-uk-vegan-products-found-contain-milk-egg

    Reminds me of the term "natural flavouring" on ingredient lists, it doesn't mean what you think....it is basically a catchall for we such a load of extra things in, in small qualities. They don't have to be natural in the sense that they were grown in the fields and then added like you might add a vanilla pod, they can be any lab made stuff.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Charles Trevelyan's response to the Irish potato famine comes to mind.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437
    edited July 2023

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.

    ETA and right at the end of her tenure, Theresa May's African tour was designed to get her used to interacting with strangers at rallies.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    Apparently the writer of “the email” is some kind of pest. There’s a harassment case.

    OMG. Any source on this that it would be appropriate to post?

    This was the third main possibility.

    1 was exy or somebody who is very close to her and who feels her pain.
    2 was a highly capable disinterested professional.
    3 was a nutter who only knows about these people from the media and who is at least borderline psychotic, capable of handling facts but also prone to believing that false stuff he has imagined is true.

    I know of somebody who'd be a fit for 3, a deranged psychology and computer science academic who for many years has plagued a chat site I go to, ranting like a m*f* about what he believes are the extra-marital affairs and unlawfully youngster-focused behaviours of other chatters. He has also carried out harassment off-site. The guy is clever, technically sussed, and highly manipulative. I've always expected he'll end up in jail. Not saying it's him, but such types exist and it could be.
    I highly doubt it was @malcolmg, but you never know.
    Joking aside. The horrifying levels of behaviour that "stalking" is used to describe....

    Most should know of the phenomenon where, after a notorious crime is committed, various sad cases show up to confess to them. All should know of this, since it is a major source of miscarriages of justice - despite them often being known to the police as serial confessors, they become a useful way to close a case quickly.

    This happens in many countries.

    There is a horrible equivalent, less spoken of, of people who elaborately stalk and accuse *other* people of crimes. One lady I know was relentlessly stalked by it turned out, a female co-worker, who made elaborate attempts to frame her for various things, stole her identity and a bunch of mad, crazy shit beyond that. In many ways, it could have been worse, if the stalker had been less batshit - then the accusations and faked evidence could have actually worked.

    The correct answer when someone says "I can't belief that someone would fake a report/accusation of crime X" is "It has happened. Many times."
    Humans are quite prone to believe 'no smoke without fire'. Operation Midland springs to mind, and how the police have yet to learn any lessons from it.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,558
    Miklosvar said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    Sure. But "dude" is. like, cringeville Arizona. Daddy-O.
    “Dude” is fucking tragic unless you are a strung out surfer. Even then they would hold your head under the sewage filled waves for saying it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    More than a third of foods labelled vegan contained animal products, research has found

    ..There is currently no legal definition for vegan food, allowing firms to market their products as being so even if they contain dairy or egg. And there is no threshold requirement for animal-derived products in the UK or the EU, unlike the prerequisite for trace amounts of gluten...

    https://www.theguardian.com/food/2023/jul/07/one-in-three-uk-vegan-products-found-contain-milk-egg

    Reminds me of the term "natural flavouring" on ingredient lists, it doesn't mean what you think....it is basically a catchall for we such a load of extra things in, in small qualities. They don't have to be natural in the sense that they were grown in the fields and then added like you might add a vanilla pod, they can be any lab made stuff.

    I seem to remember John Brunner predicting exactly that in his epochal novel Stand on Zanzibar.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023
    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    I presume he is back to looking like somebody out of Goldie Lookin Chain now the cameras aren't on him.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    edited July 2023
    Two mor Spanish polls one with a big and a YG MRP with a smaller lead but not still suggesting a likely PP/VOX majority.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2023/07/07/yougov-mrp-shows-pp-ahead-close-spanish-general-el
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    A New Map of the Universe, Painted With Cosmic Neutrinos
    https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-map-of-the-universe-painted-with-cosmic-neutrinos-20230629/

    We’re now doing astronomy with neutrinos. Exciting times.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    I'm not planning to watch and find out.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869
    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Charles Trevelyan's response to the Irish potato famine comes to mind.
    Have we actually heard from Jenrick about this cartoon event? I'm not the biggest fan of the politician, and I am more than prepared to believe the story is as it has been presented, I am just also prepared to believe there's a less Dickensian slant.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    I'm not planning to watch and find out.
    The speed and scale of the disappointment after the next GE will be fascinating as voters come to terms with the fact that very little actual change will occur.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640
    boulay said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    Sure. But "dude" is. like, cringeville Arizona. Daddy-O.
    “Dude” is fucking tragic unless you are a strung out surfer. Even then they would hold your head under the sewage filled waves for saying it.
    I drop the odd ‘dude’ when driving. Like if someone cuts me up - ‘fucking hell dude, what are you doing’ - but no-one can hear me so I think I’m ok.

    My mate, who’s old enough to know better, calls me ‘bro’, and every time he does I die a little inside.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    The mortality rate between Scotland and England is frankly bewildering. The Misuse of Drugs Act applies to both countries. The regulatory regimes are similar. The medical services are pretty similar. What the hell makes the difference?

    The people dying now are the Trainspotting generation of long term drug users. We seemed to go through a period in the 1980s where drug usage, particularly of opiates, just went out of control and we have never recovered. Many of the reasons are historical and I would not by any means blame the current government for all of it but jeez, we have lost more people to drugs over the last 20 years than you would expect from a medium sized war. We really, really need to try something else.
  • Twickbait_55Twickbait_55 Posts: 127
    Sheer callousness, only a dead hearted imbecile would believe this purile act could possibly poll well. Unless of course they are ambitious to lead one day. Vile.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Charles Trevelyan's response to the Irish potato famine comes to mind.
    Have we actually heard from Jenrick about this cartoon event? I'm not the biggest fan of the politician, and I am more than prepared to believe the story is as it has been presented, I am just also prepared to believe there's a less Dickensian slant.
    I could easily imagine the truth is somewhere in between. Minister, such and such centre needs refurb, that will include new coats of paint etc throughout the building. BTW, apparently there are a couple of tatty cartoons on a wall, what should we do. Jenrick, tell them to paint all the walls as agreed with the contractor so it looks decent.

    And / or, contractor tender for the job is specifically painting all walls. That's what the tender says, so that is what is done, rather than stop the job, re-tender it all, to include restore cartoons on wall.

    Its classic Thick of It stuff, where a minister doesn't engage beyond get it done, we need the place done ASAP.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869
    felix said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    I'm not planning to watch and find out.
    The speed and scale of the disappointment after the next GE will be fascinating as voters come to terms with the fact that very little actual change will occur.
    I don’t think the voters are silly - they don't like or trust Starmer; that much is clear from the polls. They're waiting for an alternative to a very noxious and rigid consensus offered by the two (three, four?) main parties. The first to credibly offer it will be in business (or in the Tories case, back in business).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    GOP declares war on ... Barbie
    Warner Bros. said there were no geopolitics intended in “Barbie.”
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/07/gop-declares-war-on-barbie-00105154
  • Twickbait_55Twickbait_55 Posts: 127
    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Some berk a few years ago banning books in prison...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    LOL

    DeSantis blames media for sagging poll numbers: ‘They’re going after me’
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4085047-desantis-blames-media-for-sagging-poll-numbers-theyre-going-after-me/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Nigelb said:

    A New Map of the Universe, Painted With Cosmic Neutrinos
    https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-map-of-the-universe-painted-with-cosmic-neutrinos-20230629/

    We’re now doing astronomy with neutrinos. Exciting times.

    Remarkable too it's being led by former rappers turned actors.

    IceCube has detected dozens of neutrinos coming from NGC 1068, also known as Messier 77 — an active galaxy located 47 million light-years away
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    DeSantis blames media for sagging poll numbers: ‘They’re going after me’
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4085047-desantis-blames-media-for-sagging-poll-numbers-theyre-going-after-me/

    Blame Trump, mate, he's your rival after all. And perhaps your agreement that the media and the state are going after him is undermining your own relevance, since his poll numbers are fine when 'they' are going after him.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Some berk a few years ago banning books in prison...
    Grayling.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,774

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    Good policy, but oh dear: "(England has) 5 times less deaths than Scotland"
    Why can't she say "England has one fifth of the Scottish number of deaths" if that is what she means?

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Charles Trevelyan's response to the Irish potato famine comes to mind.
    Have we actually heard from Jenrick about this cartoon event? I'm not the biggest fan of the politician, and I am more than prepared to believe the story is as it has been presented, I am just also prepared to believe there's a less Dickensian slant.
    Has Osborne stuck his head above the parapet, must have been a belter of a wedding for sure.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    I presume he is back to looking like somebody out of Goldie Lookin Chain now the cameras aren't on him.
    Well, more casual events would reasonably have more casual attire I guess. He looks like he's enjoying mainstream irrelevance, as factional devotion is much more satisfying.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    Evening all :)

    Disappointing polls for the Conservatives today. Techne wasn't too bad - the 2019 Conservative vote splits 54% Conservative, 16% Labour, 11% Don't Know and 9% Reform.

    No YouGov tables yet but the 25 point Labour lead is the largest since March - the swing from Labour to Conservative is 18.5% and from Conservative to Liberal Democrat is 10%.

    Omnisis regularly has the highest Labour shares but this is the highest Labour lead of any poll since Omnisis just after the local elections in May. The swing from Conservative to Labour is 19% so very close to YouGov but only an 8% swing from Conservative to Liberal Democrat.

    Looking at other polls, the Uxbridge & South Ruislip poll suggests a swing of only 11.5% from Conservative to Labour. Among men, Labour lead by 13 but among men Conservative and Labour trail Don't Knows 29-22. There's a lot of DKs and Won't Says (over 40% among women) so this poll tells us not a lot really and there's plenty of minds to be made up or changed in the next 13 days.

    Selby & Ainsty's poll isn't much more helpful though Labour will be more than happy with the 24% swing. Both west London women and Yorkshire men seem less impressed with Labour - in Selby, men have the Conservatives ahead by two but Labour leads by 16 among women. The truth in Yorkshire as in West London is there are still very high levels of Don't Knows - 23% among men and 32% among women.

    I wouldn't be over confident at this point if I were Labour - there's still a very long way to go both in terms of the by-elections and the General Election.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Charles Trevelyan's response to the Irish potato famine comes to mind.
    Have we actually heard from Jenrick about this cartoon event? I'm not the biggest fan of the politician, and I am more than prepared to believe the story is as it has been presented, I am just also prepared to believe there's a less Dickensian slant.
    I could easily imagine the truth is somewhere in between. Minister, such and such centre needs refurb, that will include new coats of paint etc throughout the building. BTW, apparently there are a couple of tatty cartoons on a wall, what should we do. Jenrick, tell them to paint all the walls as agreed with the contractor so it looks decent.

    And / or, contractor tender for the job is specifically painting all walls. That's what the tender says, so that is what is done, rather than stop the job, re-tender it all, to include restore cartoons on wall.

    Its classic Thick of It stuff, where a minister doesn't engage beyond get it done, we need the place done ASAP.
    Sadly not, unless the government has been incredibly slow in issuing its denial;

    https://news.sky.com/story/evil-home-office-paints-over-mickey-mouse-mural-at-child-asylum-seeker-centre-12916543

    The complex only opened last November.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Some berk a few years ago banning books in prison...
    I seemed to remember that was a similar thing. It wasn't a "book ban" as such, it was that small packages were being used to widely smuggle in contraband. So they banned all small packages being sent in from the outside without special permission, which then people said well that includes books.

    Prisoners weren't banned from books from the prison library etc.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    It
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    Apparently the writer of “the email” is some kind of pest. There’s a harassment case.

    OMG. Any source on this that it would be appropriate to post?

    This was the third main possibility.

    1 was exy or somebody who is very close to her and who feels her pain.
    2 was a highly capable disinterested professional.
    3 was a nutter who only knows about these people from the media and who is at least borderline psychotic, capable of handling facts but also prone to believing that false stuff he has imagined is true.

    I know of somebody who'd be a fit for 3, a deranged psychology and computer science academic who for many years has plagued a chat site I go to, ranting like a m*f* about what he believes are the extra-marital affairs and unlawfully youngster-focused behaviours of other chatters. He has also carried out harassment off-site. The guy is clever, technically sussed, and highly manipulative. I've always expected he'll end up in jail. Not saying it's him, but such types exist and it could be.
    I highly doubt it was @malcolmg, but you never know.
    Joking aside. The horrifying levels of behaviour that "stalking" is used to describe....

    Most should know of the phenomenon where, after a notorious crime is committed, various sad cases show up to confess to them. All should know of this, since it is a major source of miscarriages of justice - despite them often being known to the police as serial confessors, they become a useful way to close a case quickly.

    This happens in many countries.

    There is a horrible equivalent, less spoken of, of people who elaborately stalk and accuse *other* people of crimes. One lady I know was relentlessly stalked by it turned out, a female co-worker, who made elaborate attempts to frame her for various things, stole her identity and a bunch of mad, crazy shit beyond that. In many ways, it could have been worse, if the stalker had been less batshit - then the accusations and faked evidence could have actually worked.

    The correct answer when someone says "I can't belief that someone would fake a report/accusation of crime X" is "It has happened. Many times."
    Humans are quite prone to believe 'no smoke without fire'. Operation Midland springs to mind, and how the police have yet to learn any lessons from it.
    There's a theory that Beech was a Spy Who Came In From the Cold operation; if something is true get some one to say it, and then discredit them.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,774
    geoffw said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    Good policy, but oh dear: "(England has) 5 times less deaths than Scotland"
    Why can't she say "England has one fifth of the Scottish number of deaths" if that is what she means?

    Or indeed, "Scotland has five times the deaths of England"
    (I suppose this figure allows for the size difference between the entities)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    A New Map of the Universe, Painted With Cosmic Neutrinos
    https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-map-of-the-universe-painted-with-cosmic-neutrinos-20230629/

    We’re now doing astronomy with neutrinos. Exciting times.

    Remarkable too it's being led by former rappers turned actors.

    IceCube has detected dozens of neutrinos coming from NGC 1068, also known as Messier 77 — an active galaxy located 47 million light-years away
    I just get a feeling that a map of the universe isn't going to convey the message well on a 2 dimensional flat surface, given that planet earth doesn't either. And my 5 year old grandson wants to know what there is on the other side of the boundary line/wall.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167
    geoffw said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    Good policy, but oh dear: "(England has) 5 times less deaths than Scotland"
    Why can't she say "England has one fifth of the Scottish number of deaths" if that is what she means?

    It would be proportional not flat numbers.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,774

    geoffw said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    Good policy, but oh dear: "(England has) 5 times less deaths than Scotland"
    Why can't she say "England has one fifth of the Scottish number of deaths" if that is what she means?

    It would be proportional not flat numbers.
    One would hope so

  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Some berk a few years ago banning books in prison...
    Chaining pregnant prisoners during childbirth, under Tory prisons minister Ann Widdecombe.

    Oh wait, "Ms Widdecombe said it was not policy to restrain women during labour and claimed that in Annette's case, once full labour had been established, she had not been shackled." (Emphasis added.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited July 2023
    Creative law making.

    State law allowed Democrat [Governor] Tony Evers to strike words and digits from a revenue hike proposed until 2025, instead locking in the funds till 2425.

    Republicans have reacted with fury to what they call "an unprecedented brand-new way to screw the taxpayer". The move could however be undone by a legal challenge or future governor.

    It is the latest tussle between Mr Evers, a former public school teacher who narrowly won re-election last year, and a Republican-controlled state legislature that has often blocked his agenda...

    But Wisconsin allows its governors to alter certain pieces of legislation by striking words and numbers as they see fit before signing them into law - what is known as partial veto power. Both Democrats and Republicans have flexed their partial veto authority for years, with Mr Evers' Republican predecessor once deploying it to extend a state programme's deadline by one thousand years.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66137111
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    DeSantis blames media for sagging poll numbers: ‘They’re going after me’
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4085047-desantis-blames-media-for-sagging-poll-numbers-theyre-going-after-me/

    RDS does have a point, in that Woke Media HAS been reporting on what he says and does on the campaign trail.

    Aside from political style that may be attuned to the bizaro world of Florida politics, it seems (to me anyhow) that key mistake by DeSantis, was & still is trying to outflank Trump on & from the right.

    Which in logically, ideologically & theoretically possible, but in actuality is emotionally and psycho-politically impossible.

    Because the target audience simply won't believe it.

    Similar to how it was impossible to outflank Ronald Reagan to the right on taxes back in HIS day.

    Or before that, to convince voters that Richard Nixon was soft on Communism - as GOP rightwinger John Ashcroft tried to do in 1972 after RN's opening to "Red" China.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    geoffw said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    Good policy, but oh dear: "(England has) 5 times less deaths than Scotland"
    Why can't she say "England has one fifth of the Scottish number of deaths" if that is what she means?

    The only interpretation is that she means what she says. For every person who does in Scotland, England has -4 deaths? Not sure whether that relates to births or to the dead being resurrected...
  • DavidL said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    The mortality rate between Scotland and England is frankly bewildering. The Misuse of Drugs Act applies to both countries. The regulatory regimes are similar. The medical services are pretty similar. What the hell makes the difference?

    The people dying now are the Trainspotting generation of long term drug users. We seemed to go through a period in the 1980s where drug usage, particularly of opiates, just went out of control and we have never recovered. Many of the reasons are historical and I would not by any means blame the current government for all of it but jeez, we have lost more people to drugs over the last 20 years than you would expect from a medium sized war. We really, really need to try something else.
    Edinburgh and Glasgow both had massive heroin problems 80s/90s, and anyone who survived that back in the day is an absolute mess now - they don't make old bones. Also alcohol abuse is still endemic, despite things like minimum pricing.

    Factor in the huge drug problems in coastal towns (drugs arrive via boat and are relatively cheap), and that much of Scotland is coastal.

    Sadly, young people who don't go off to university/college or into a decent job are particularly vulnerable to this. One of my friends has lost two young male family members to overdose in their 20s/30s - coastal Scotland. All the kids in the family who completed their education/training went on to live stable lives.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    I presume he is back to looking like somebody out of Goldie Lookin Chain now the cameras aren't on him.
    Well, more casual events would reasonably have more casual attire I guess. He looks like he's enjoying mainstream irrelevance, as factional devotion is much more satisfying.

    Shelley was up himself to a ridiculous extent.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Man knows how to survive, clearly.

    The Dutch government has collapsed because of differences between coalition parties over asylum policies, according to media reports...

    New elections will now be held, probably in the autumn.

    [Rutte's] conservative VVD party had been trying to limit the flow of asylum seekers, but junior partners D66 and the Christian Union refused to support the proposals...

    Mr Rutte, 56, is the country's longest serving prime minister and has been in office since 2010. The current government - which took office in January 2022 - is his fourth coalition.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66139789
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    kle4 said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Some berk a few years ago banning books in prison...
    Grayling.
    I think he is now not Grayling, but Grayled, thank goodness.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    A New Map of the Universe, Painted With Cosmic Neutrinos
    https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-map-of-the-universe-painted-with-cosmic-neutrinos-20230629/

    We’re now doing astronomy with neutrinos. Exciting times.

    Remarkable too it's being led by former rappers turned actors.

    IceCube has detected dozens of neutrinos coming from NGC 1068, also known as Messier 77 — an active galaxy located 47 million light-years away
    This generation’s Hedy Lamarr.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,161
    Not a fjord but a large lake, dog for scale


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    kle4 said:

    Creative law making.

    State law allowed Democrat [Governor] Tony Evers to strike words and digits from a revenue hike proposed until 2025, instead locking in the funds till 2425.

    Republicans have reacted with fury to what they call "an unprecedented brand-new way to screw the taxpayer". The move could however be undone by a legal challenge or future governor.

    It is the latest tussle between Mr Evers, a former public school teacher who narrowly won re-election last year, and a Republican-controlled state legislature that has often blocked his agenda...

    But Wisconsin allows its governors to alter certain pieces of legislation by striking words and numbers as they see fit before signing them into law - what is known as partial veto power. Both Democrats and Republicans have flexed their partial veto authority for years, with Mr Evers' Republican predecessor once deploying it to extend a state programme's deadline by one thousand years.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66137111

    Posted that yesterday.
    Legally and democratically dubious to say the least - but there again, so is what the state congress did to the governorship, so this is fncker fncked.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    I presume he is back to looking like somebody out of Goldie Lookin Chain now the cameras aren't on him.
    Well, more casual events would reasonably have more casual attire I guess. He looks like he's enjoying mainstream irrelevance, as factional devotion is much more satisfying.

    Shelley was up himself to a ridiculous extent.
    Plus bloody 1. Ozzy Mandy Arse is by several furlongs the most overrated poem in history.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    I presume he is back to looking like somebody out of Goldie Lookin Chain now the cameras aren't on him.
    Well, more casual events would reasonably have more casual attire I guess. He looks like he's enjoying mainstream irrelevance, as factional devotion is much more satisfying.

    Shelley was a pretentious git, TBF.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167
    Selebian said:

    geoffw said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    Good policy, but oh dear: "(England has) 5 times less deaths than Scotland"
    Why can't she say "England has one fifth of the Scottish number of deaths" if that is what she means?

    The only interpretation is that she means what she says. For every person who does in Scotland, England has -4 deaths? Not sure whether that relates to births or to the dead being resurrected...
    Quick google gives c.3.7k + deaths in 2022 in England and 1.09k in Scotland. I think we can all agree the woman didnae express herself very well.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    I presume he is back to looking like somebody out of Goldie Lookin Chain now the cameras aren't on him.
    Well, more casual events would reasonably have more casual attire I guess. He looks like he's enjoying mainstream irrelevance, as factional devotion is much more satisfying.

    Shelley was a pretentious git, TBF.
    His self love and arrogance was pretty extreme.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,417
    rcs1000 said:

    538 has done some great work on opinion polls, and last week's (or month's) move has no predictive power whatsover.

    In other words, the trend is not your friend.

    (Here you go: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-misunderstanding-of-momentum/)

    Um, hold on. I've looked at those articles and I'm confused. The graphs are not intuitive. On one axis is the change from A to B, on the other the change from B to C. 538 points out that there's a slight negative correlation. But should there be? If the lead is stable then all the graphs should be a vertical line (a change in polls is not reversed), a 45degree up line denotes the change accelerating, and a 45degree down line denotes the change reversing.

    The graph would be better if it was absolute values: lead at A versus lead at B, and lead at A versus lead at C. The first graph would show the change, the second graph would show if the change reverses.

    Is the dataset available so I can have a play?

  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,029

    DavidL said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    The mortality rate between Scotland and England is frankly bewildering. The Misuse of Drugs Act applies to both countries. The regulatory regimes are similar. The medical services are pretty similar. What the hell makes the difference?

    The people dying now are the Trainspotting generation of long term drug users. We seemed to go through a period in the 1980s where drug usage, particularly of opiates, just went out of control and we have never recovered. Many of the reasons are historical and I would not by any means blame the current government for all of it but jeez, we have lost more people to drugs over the last 20 years than you would expect from a medium sized war. We really, really need to try something else.
    Edinburgh and Glasgow both had massive heroin problems 80s/90s, and anyone who survived that back in the day is an absolute mess now - they don't make old bones. Also alcohol abuse is still endemic, despite things like minimum pricing.

    Factor in the huge drug problems in coastal towns (drugs arrive via boat and are relatively cheap), and that much of Scotland is coastal.

    Sadly, young people who don't go off to university/college or into a decent job are particularly vulnerable to this. One of my friends has lost two young male family members to overdose in their 20s/30s - coastal Scotland. All the kids in the family who completed their education/training went on to live stable lives.
    Speaking personally of Glasgow - there's also a certain Nihilism that I've not experienced so much in England outside of some of the depressed areas of Sheffield etc. Maybe common amongst formerly industrial areas - but I still feel it's more common here.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Some berk a few years ago banning books in prison...
    I seemed to remember that was a similar thing. It wasn't a "book ban" as such, it was that small packages were being used to widely smuggle in contraband. So they banned all small packages being sent in from the outside without special permission, which then people said well that includes books.

    Prisoners weren't banned from books from the prison library etc.
    Rules restricting the number of books a prisoner can have have been overturned by Justice Secretary Michael Gove.

    A limit of 12 books per cell has been removed, while relatives and friends can now send books to inmates directly.

    The rule changes, affecting more than 80,000 inmates in England and Wales, are meant to help prepare inmates for work when released.

    Mr Gove said those "languishing in prison" were "potential assets" who could be "productive and contribute".

    The scrapping of the rules from 1 September is one of Mr Gove's first key changes to prison policy since being appointed as justice secretary.

    The restriction on receiving books directly came as a result of the Incentives and Earned Privileges scheme, introduced in November 2013 under Mr Gove's predecessor, Chris Grayling.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33497581
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,029

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Charles Trevelyan's response to the Irish potato famine comes to mind.
    Have we actually heard from Jenrick about this cartoon event? I'm not the biggest fan of the politician, and I am more than prepared to believe the story is as it has been presented, I am just also prepared to believe there's a less Dickensian slant.
    I could easily imagine the truth is somewhere in between. Minister, such and such centre needs refurb, that will include new coats of paint etc throughout the building. BTW, apparently there are a couple of tatty cartoons on a wall, what should we do. Jenrick, tell them to paint all the walls as agreed with the contractor so it looks decent.

    And / or, contractor tender for the job is specifically painting all walls. That's what the tender says, so that is what is done, rather than stop the job, re-tender it all, to include restore cartoons on wall.

    Its classic Thick of It stuff, where a minister doesn't engage beyond get it done, we need the place done ASAP.
    But why should a cabinet minister even be within 100 miles of such a decision? I could get it if he'd set a blanket policy of "Murals are the work of the devil, forbidden". But why be involved in a specific place and time.

    Even if it was a Disney copyright thing - just say that.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Friend of mine did a lot of Christian outreach work in Glasgow in the 1990s. FWIW he said his impression was the drug problem was at heart a drink problem, people were topping off 3 litres a day of vodka with a bit of adulterated heroin which was neither here nor there.

    He was an officer in the blues and royals before finding God so knew a fair bit about drink and not much about heroin at a guess.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437
    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    Still, @Stuartinromford is right. Too many of our politicians lack basic tradecraft. They can't make speeches, they can't answer questions, they can't understand the bills they are voting on. And with notable exceptions like Mrs Thatcher, they do not take advantage of training.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,029

    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    Apparently the writer of “the email” is some kind of pest. There’s a harassment case.

    OMG. Any source on this that it would be appropriate to post?

    This was the third main possibility.

    1 was exy or somebody who is very close to her and who feels her pain.
    2 was a highly capable disinterested professional.
    3 was a nutter who only knows about these people from the media and who is at least borderline psychotic, capable of handling facts but also prone to believing that false stuff he has imagined is true.

    I know of somebody who'd be a fit for 3, a deranged psychology and computer science academic who for many years has plagued a chat site I go to, ranting like a m*f* about what he believes are the extra-marital affairs and unlawfully youngster-focused behaviours of other chatters. He has also carried out harassment off-site. The guy is clever, technically sussed, and highly manipulative. I've always expected he'll end up in jail. Not saying it's him, but such types exist and it could be.
    I highly doubt it was @malcolmg, but you never know.
    Joking aside. The horrifying levels of behaviour that "stalking" is used to describe....

    Most should know of the phenomenon where, after a notorious crime is committed, various sad cases show up to confess to them. All should know of this, since it is a major source of miscarriages of justice - despite them often being known to the police as serial confessors, they become a useful way to close a case quickly.

    This happens in many countries.

    There is a horrible equivalent, less spoken of, of people who elaborately stalk and accuse *other* people of crimes. One lady I know was relentlessly stalked by it turned out, a female co-worker, who made elaborate attempts to frame her for various things, stole her identity and a bunch of mad, crazy shit beyond that. In many ways, it could have been worse, if the stalker had been less batshit - then the accusations and faked evidence could have actually worked.

    The correct answer when someone says "I can't belief that someone would fake a report/accusation of crime X" is "It has happened. Many times."
    I had an online stalker a few years ago. It was odd and a bit unsettling. They would track me around various websites/social media places then send messages to all my 'friends' saying things like "Do you know his secret?", "Have you heard the rumours?" etc etc. Thankfully they all either ignored it or blocked them.

    But I was left kind of puzzled and disquieted. Who were they? ... Why? My main secret is being a boring podgy middle-aged IT worker rather than the frankly fascinating glitterati I appear on sites such as this.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    kle4 said:

    Man knows how to survive, clearly.

    The Dutch government has collapsed because of differences between coalition parties over asylum policies, according to media reports...

    New elections will now be held, probably in the autumn.

    [Rutte's] conservative VVD party had been trying to limit the flow of asylum seekers, but junior partners D66 and the Christian Union refused to support the proposals...

    Mr Rutte, 56, is the country's longest serving prime minister and has been in office since 2010. The current government - which took office in January 2022 - is his fourth coalition.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66139789

    The normally fairly stable Dutch political scene has been transformed by the rise of BBB who topped the poll in the Senate elections at the end of May winning 21% of the vote and taking 16 of the 75 seats from nowhere.

    They also won the Provincial elections in the spring taking 137 seats out of 572 and comfortably outpolling Rutte's VVD in both elections. They'll be champing at the bit for a General Election. Their leader is Caroline van der Pals who is also their only MP in the House of Representatives where she sits on the opposition benches opposite the current coalition which was VVD, D66, CDA and CU representing a broadly centre to centre-right grouping.

    The latest polls give BBB 27-29% of the poll and a clear lead over VVD. In terms of seats, BBB would win 27 (+26) on the latest Peil poll with the big losers being the VVD at 20 (-14) and D66 10 (-14). With the CDA set to lose nine seats, the current coalition would lose more than half its seats. The other winners look to be the Greens who would gain six.

    BBB is described as agrarian/populist but its policies on the EU and immigration place it pretty close to Sunak's Conservative Party over here. Whether it can sustain its popularity in the full glare of an election campaign remains to be seen but the Netherlands could be another EU member to back away from the deeply integrationist policies and back toward the traditional "trading block".

    One can conjecture that as such parties gain power in Holland, Spain and elsewhere the option of the EU returning to simply being a trading bloc heaves into view and that, I suspect, is an EU to which the UK could happily submit articles of membership - no Single Market but a Customs Union and economic trading bloc only. Could this happen?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    Miklosvar said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    I presume he is back to looking like somebody out of Goldie Lookin Chain now the cameras aren't on him.
    Well, more casual events would reasonably have more casual attire I guess. He looks like he's enjoying mainstream irrelevance, as factional devotion is much more satisfying.

    Shelley was up himself to a ridiculous extent.
    Plus bloody 1. Ozzy Mandy Arse is by several furlongs the most overrated poem in history.
    Alien Covenant :lol:
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,029
    Farooq said:

    ohnotnow said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    Apparently the writer of “the email” is some kind of pest. There’s a harassment case.

    OMG. Any source on this that it would be appropriate to post?

    This was the third main possibility.

    1 was exy or somebody who is very close to her and who feels her pain.
    2 was a highly capable disinterested professional.
    3 was a nutter who only knows about these people from the media and who is at least borderline psychotic, capable of handling facts but also prone to believing that false stuff he has imagined is true.

    I know of somebody who'd be a fit for 3, a deranged psychology and computer science academic who for many years has plagued a chat site I go to, ranting like a m*f* about what he believes are the extra-marital affairs and unlawfully youngster-focused behaviours of other chatters. He has also carried out harassment off-site. The guy is clever, technically sussed, and highly manipulative. I've always expected he'll end up in jail. Not saying it's him, but such types exist and it could be.
    I highly doubt it was @malcolmg, but you never know.
    Joking aside. The horrifying levels of behaviour that "stalking" is used to describe....

    Most should know of the phenomenon where, after a notorious crime is committed, various sad cases show up to confess to them. All should know of this, since it is a major source of miscarriages of justice - despite them often being known to the police as serial confessors, they become a useful way to close a case quickly.

    This happens in many countries.

    There is a horrible equivalent, less spoken of, of people who elaborately stalk and accuse *other* people of crimes. One lady I know was relentlessly stalked by it turned out, a female co-worker, who made elaborate attempts to frame her for various things, stole her identity and a bunch of mad, crazy shit beyond that. In many ways, it could have been worse, if the stalker had been less batshit - then the accusations and faked evidence could have actually worked.

    The correct answer when someone says "I can't belief that someone would fake a report/accusation of crime X" is "It has happened. Many times."
    I had an online stalker a few years ago. It was odd and a bit unsettling. They would track me around various websites/social media places then send messages to all my 'friends' saying things like "Do you know his secret?", "Have you heard the rumours?" etc etc. Thankfully they all either ignored it or blocked them.

    But I was left kind of puzzled and disquieted. Who were they? ... Why? My main secret is being a boring podgy middle-aged IT worker rather than the frankly fascinating glitterati I appear on sites such as this.
    You are George Osborne and I claim my 1300 Sure Start centres.
    Outed! Damn! Soz about austerity and all that. Nick said it'd be fine.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,417

    Miklosvar said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    I presume he is back to looking like somebody out of Goldie Lookin Chain now the cameras aren't on him.
    Well, more casual events would reasonably have more casual attire I guess. He looks like he's enjoying mainstream irrelevance, as factional devotion is much more satisfying.

    Shelley was up himself to a ridiculous extent.
    Plus bloody 1. Ozzy Mandy Arse is by several furlongs the most overrated poem in history.
    Alien Covenant :lol:
    I got that reference
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,417
    Chris Stuckmann on MI:7pt1

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=Gha8WmJj7Io
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    It's worth noting the Spanish GE is barely a fortnight away and it's hard to see anything other than a convincing PP win. It looks as though PP and VOX will between them be very close to a majority in the Cortes.

    The big YouGov poll (over 10,000 sampled) had PP on 31%, PSOE on 28% and both VOX and SUMAR on 14% each. Trying to extrapolate sesta from those numbers isn't easy - one possibility is PP/VOX 161, PSOE/SUMAR 159 or it could be PP/VOX 194, PSOE/SUMAR 131 so you pays your Euros and you take your choice.

    PSOE are gaining ground but remain 3-4 points behind PP at this stage - the closer they get of course, the greater the possibility Sanchez could survive with SUMAR and some other parties. The odds are on Feijoo getting most votes and seats - the question is whether he'll run straight to VOX and what the latter will demand for their support.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,029
    edited July 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    Friend of mine did a lot of Christian outreach work in Glasgow in the 1990s. FWIW he said his impression was the drug problem was at heart a drink problem, people were topping off 3 litres a day of vodka with a bit of adulterated heroin which was neither here nor there.

    He was an officer in the blues and royals before finding God so knew a fair bit about drink and not much about heroin at a guess.

    I guess that ties in with my Nihilistic impression. It's just seeking daily oblivion by whatever means. Not sure why it's such a strong influence here specifically.

    I used to have friend who worked in social services (and research into causes etc) and when she'd go to a conference and people found out she worked here they'd be all over her asking about 'The Glasgow Effect'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_effect

    (Rather off-topic - but the discussion reminded me of this track which I'm rather fond of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv8dIU0_4Yg )
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167
    ohnotnow said:

    DavidL said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    The mortality rate between Scotland and England is frankly bewildering. The Misuse of Drugs Act applies to both countries. The regulatory regimes are similar. The medical services are pretty similar. What the hell makes the difference?

    The people dying now are the Trainspotting generation of long term drug users. We seemed to go through a period in the 1980s where drug usage, particularly of opiates, just went out of control and we have never recovered. Many of the reasons are historical and I would not by any means blame the current government for all of it but jeez, we have lost more people to drugs over the last 20 years than you would expect from a medium sized war. We really, really need to try something else.
    Edinburgh and Glasgow both had massive heroin problems 80s/90s, and anyone who survived that back in the day is an absolute mess now - they don't make old bones. Also alcohol abuse is still endemic, despite things like minimum pricing.

    Factor in the huge drug problems in coastal towns (drugs arrive via boat and are relatively cheap), and that much of Scotland is coastal.

    Sadly, young people who don't go off to university/college or into a decent job are particularly vulnerable to this. One of my friends has lost two young male family members to overdose in their 20s/30s - coastal Scotland. All the kids in the family who completed their education/training went on to live stable lives.
    Speaking personally of Glasgow - there's also a certain Nihilism that I've not experienced so much in England outside of some of the depressed areas of Sheffield etc. Maybe common amongst formerly industrial areas - but I still feel it's more common here.
    I don't suppose the Glasgow effect and the most likely cause of it (an historical policy of getting viable younger people out to new towns and letting the inner city and its inhabitatants run down) helps.
    For reasons I won't go into I've had a bit of recent contact with local drug users who have been in the life since the 80s. They've pretty much beat the odds to still be around but are very fragile physically. They're in some ways the usual mixture, charismatic, funny, gentle, or rsoles who'd pimp their granny, sometimes in the same package.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395

    ohnotnow said:

    DavidL said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    The mortality rate between Scotland and England is frankly bewildering. The Misuse of Drugs Act applies to both countries. The regulatory regimes are similar. The medical services are pretty similar. What the hell makes the difference?

    The people dying now are the Trainspotting generation of long term drug users. We seemed to go through a period in the 1980s where drug usage, particularly of opiates, just went out of control and we have never recovered. Many of the reasons are historical and I would not by any means blame the current government for all of it but jeez, we have lost more people to drugs over the last 20 years than you would expect from a medium sized war. We really, really need to try something else.
    Edinburgh and Glasgow both had massive heroin problems 80s/90s, and anyone who survived that back in the day is an absolute mess now - they don't make old bones. Also alcohol abuse is still endemic, despite things like minimum pricing.

    Factor in the huge drug problems in coastal towns (drugs arrive via boat and are relatively cheap), and that much of Scotland is coastal.

    Sadly, young people who don't go off to university/college or into a decent job are particularly vulnerable to this. One of my friends has lost two young male family members to overdose in their 20s/30s - coastal Scotland. All the kids in the family who completed their education/training went on to live stable lives.
    Speaking personally of Glasgow - there's also a certain Nihilism that I've not experienced so much in England outside of some of the depressed areas of Sheffield etc. Maybe common amongst formerly industrial areas - but I still feel it's more common here.
    I don't suppose the Glasgow effect and the most likely cause of it (an historical policy of getting viable younger people out to new towns and letting the inner city and its inhabitatants run down) helps.
    For reasons I won't go into I've had a bit of recent contact with local drug users who have been in the life since the 80s. They've pretty much beat the odds to still be around but are very fragile physically. They're in some ways the usual mixture, charismatic, funny, gentle, or rsoles who'd pimp their granny, sometimes in the same package.
    There was a medical appliances shop in the Pubic Triangle area of Edinburgh which I used to frequent, the area I mean, as it had/has excellent 2/hand bookshops. It used to sell clean disposable needles. But, as I understand matters, a born-again holier-than-thou local police chief was not impressed, and applied pressure. Whence the HIV epidemic. That generation would indeed be in their 50s-ish now, and beginning to fall apart health wise.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Miklosvar said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    I presume he is back to looking like somebody out of Goldie Lookin Chain now the cameras aren't on him.
    Well, more casual events would reasonably have more casual attire I guess. He looks like he's enjoying mainstream irrelevance, as factional devotion is much more satisfying.

    Shelley was up himself to a ridiculous extent.
    Plus bloody 1. Ozzy Mandy Arse is by several furlongs the most overrated poem in history.
    Alien Covenant :lol:
    The trick, Mr. Prasanan, is not minding it hurts.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    As fun as it was, I do fear we might not see Ben Stokes for much longer, saw him after close of play, and he's like an old man.

    I don't think we'll see him cancel his retirement and play at the world cup this year.

    An utter utter shame.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Starmer complains about being interrupted by a “dude”. The next GE campaign will be a cringefest.

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1677300842481741824

    Starmer looks relaxed, human, and eminently electable in that clip.
    The thing that gives me hope is that Starmer learns and gets better at stuff.

    Not quickly, and it would obviously be better if he had started already ready. But so many of our recent political leaders (Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, May, EdM) had exactly the same faults at the end of their tenure as at the beginning. In extreme cases, they stopped growing sometime in their teenage years.

    Do we have to go back to Thatcher for someone who clearly worked on their weaknesses and sought to do something about them?
    Corbyn took David Cameron's mum's advice on wearing suits.
    By the end he could be quite dapper. Certainly he was the more 'politician' looking in 2019.
    I presume he is back to looking like somebody out of Goldie Lookin Chain now the cameras aren't on him.
    Well, more casual events would reasonably have more casual attire I guess. He looks like he's enjoying mainstream irrelevance, as factional devotion is much more satisfying.

    Shelley was up himself to a ridiculous extent.
    All those Romantic Poets were very woke, a bit remainy too, galavanting off on their Grand Tours.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,029
    Carnyx said:

    ohnotnow said:

    DavidL said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    The mortality rate between Scotland and England is frankly bewildering. The Misuse of Drugs Act applies to both countries. The regulatory regimes are similar. The medical services are pretty similar. What the hell makes the difference?

    The people dying now are the Trainspotting generation of long term drug users. We seemed to go through a period in the 1980s where drug usage, particularly of opiates, just went out of control and we have never recovered. Many of the reasons are historical and I would not by any means blame the current government for all of it but jeez, we have lost more people to drugs over the last 20 years than you would expect from a medium sized war. We really, really need to try something else.
    Edinburgh and Glasgow both had massive heroin problems 80s/90s, and anyone who survived that back in the day is an absolute mess now - they don't make old bones. Also alcohol abuse is still endemic, despite things like minimum pricing.

    Factor in the huge drug problems in coastal towns (drugs arrive via boat and are relatively cheap), and that much of Scotland is coastal.

    Sadly, young people who don't go off to university/college or into a decent job are particularly vulnerable to this. One of my friends has lost two young male family members to overdose in their 20s/30s - coastal Scotland. All the kids in the family who completed their education/training went on to live stable lives.
    Speaking personally of Glasgow - there's also a certain Nihilism that I've not experienced so much in England outside of some of the depressed areas of Sheffield etc. Maybe common amongst formerly industrial areas - but I still feel it's more common here.
    I don't suppose the Glasgow effect and the most likely cause of it (an historical policy of getting viable younger people out to new towns and letting the inner city and its inhabitatants run down) helps.
    For reasons I won't go into I've had a bit of recent contact with local drug users who have been in the life since the 80s. They've pretty much beat the odds to still be around but are very fragile physically. They're in some ways the usual mixture, charismatic, funny, gentle, or rsoles who'd pimp their granny, sometimes in the same package.
    There was a medical appliances shop in the Pubic Triangle area of Edinburgh which I used to frequent, the area I mean, as it had/has excellent 2/hand bookshops. It used to sell clean disposable needles. But, as I understand matters, a born-again holier-than-thou local police chief was not impressed, and applied pressure. Whence the HIV epidemic. That generation would indeed be in their 50s-ish now, and beginning to fall apart health wise.
    Rather an aside - but I remember an old time Glasgow guy a few years ago saying during a heatwave "It's hotter than a Hib's fans spoon!".
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Some berk a few years ago banning books in prison...
    I seemed to remember that was a similar thing. It wasn't a "book ban" as such, it was that small packages were being used to widely smuggle in contraband. So they banned all small packages being sent in from the outside without special permission, which then people said well that includes books.

    Prisoners weren't banned from books from the prison library etc.
    Rules restricting the number of books a prisoner can have have been overturned by Justice Secretary Michael Gove.

    A limit of 12 books per cell has been removed, while relatives and friends can now send books to inmates directly.

    The rule changes, affecting more than 80,000 inmates in England and Wales, are meant to help prepare inmates for work when released.

    Mr Gove said those "languishing in prison" were "potential assets" who could be "productive and contribute".

    The scrapping of the rules from 1 September is one of Mr Gove's first key changes to prison policy since being appointed as justice secretary.

    The restriction on receiving books directly came as a result of the Incentives and Earned Privileges scheme, introduced in November 2013 under Mr Gove's predecessor, Chris Grayling.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33497581
    Now I'm actually beginning to warm to the putative spokesperson for the Scottish fishing ports of Fraserhead and Peterborough for the first time.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,558
    ohnotnow said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    Apparently the writer of “the email” is some kind of pest. There’s a harassment case.

    OMG. Any source on this that it would be appropriate to post?

    This was the third main possibility.

    1 was exy or somebody who is very close to her and who feels her pain.
    2 was a highly capable disinterested professional.
    3 was a nutter who only knows about these people from the media and who is at least borderline psychotic, capable of handling facts but also prone to believing that false stuff he has imagined is true.

    I know of somebody who'd be a fit for 3, a deranged psychology and computer science academic who for many years has plagued a chat site I go to, ranting like a m*f* about what he believes are the extra-marital affairs and unlawfully youngster-focused behaviours of other chatters. He has also carried out harassment off-site. The guy is clever, technically sussed, and highly manipulative. I've always expected he'll end up in jail. Not saying it's him, but such types exist and it could be.
    I highly doubt it was @malcolmg, but you never know.
    Joking aside. The horrifying levels of behaviour that "stalking" is used to describe....

    Most should know of the phenomenon where, after a notorious crime is committed, various sad cases show up to confess to them. All should know of this, since it is a major source of miscarriages of justice - despite them often being known to the police as serial confessors, they become a useful way to close a case quickly.

    This happens in many countries.

    There is a horrible equivalent, less spoken of, of people who elaborately stalk and accuse *other* people of crimes. One lady I know was relentlessly stalked by it turned out, a female co-worker, who made elaborate attempts to frame her for various things, stole her identity and a bunch of mad, crazy shit beyond that. In many ways, it could have been worse, if the stalker had been less batshit - then the accusations and faked evidence could have actually worked.

    The correct answer when someone says "I can't belief that someone would fake a report/accusation of crime X" is "It has happened. Many times."
    I had an online stalker a few years ago. It was odd and a bit unsettling. They would track me around various websites/social media places then send messages to all my 'friends' saying things like "Do you know his secret?", "Have you heard the rumours?" etc etc. Thankfully they all either ignored it or blocked them.

    But I was left kind of puzzled and disquieted. Who were they? ... Why? My main secret is being a boring podgy middle-aged IT worker rather than the frankly fascinating glitterati I appear on sites such as this.
    Hello ohnotnow, I’m back. And I know your secrets.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    ohnotnow said:

    DavidL said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    The mortality rate between Scotland and England is frankly bewildering. The Misuse of Drugs Act applies to both countries. The regulatory regimes are similar. The medical services are pretty similar. What the hell makes the difference?

    The people dying now are the Trainspotting generation of long term drug users. We seemed to go through a period in the 1980s where drug usage, particularly of opiates, just went out of control and we have never recovered. Many of the reasons are historical and I would not by any means blame the current government for all of it but jeez, we have lost more people to drugs over the last 20 years than you would expect from a medium sized war. We really, really need to try something else.
    Edinburgh and Glasgow both had massive heroin problems 80s/90s, and anyone who survived that back in the day is an absolute mess now - they don't make old bones. Also alcohol abuse is still endemic, despite things like minimum pricing.

    Factor in the huge drug problems in coastal towns (drugs arrive via boat and are relatively cheap), and that much of Scotland is coastal.

    Sadly, young people who don't go off to university/college or into a decent job are particularly vulnerable to this. One of my friends has lost two young male family members to overdose in their 20s/30s - coastal Scotland. All the kids in the family who completed their education/training went on to live stable lives.
    Speaking personally of Glasgow - there's also a certain Nihilism that I've not experienced so much in England outside of some of the depressed areas of Sheffield etc. Maybe common amongst formerly industrial areas - but I still feel it's more common here.
    Might be the local patter/sense of humour. It's always been pretty bleak.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,415
    edited July 2023
    kle4 said:

    Creative law making.

    State law allowed Democrat [Governor] Tony Evers to strike words and digits from a revenue hike proposed until 2025, instead locking in the funds till 2425.

    Republicans have reacted with fury to what they call "an unprecedented brand-new way to screw the taxpayer". The move could however be undone by a legal challenge or future governor.

    It is the latest tussle between Mr Evers, a former public school teacher who narrowly won re-election last year, and a Republican-controlled state legislature that has often blocked his agenda...

    But Wisconsin allows its governors to alter certain pieces of legislation by striking words and numbers as they see fit before signing them into law - what is known as partial veto power. Both Democrats and Republicans have flexed their partial veto authority for years, with Mr Evers' Republican predecessor once deploying it to extend a state programme's deadline by one thousand years.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66137111

    This week, before he signed the biennial state budget into law, the governor altered language that applied the $325 increase to the 2023-24 and 2024-25 school years, vetoeing a hyphen and a "20" to instead make the end date 2425.

    OK that's pretty damned ingenious and hilarious. Well done him.

    There's a simple way to reverse that and that is to win an election and repeal it.

    Considering how Wisconsin law operates and precedence here, it seems entirely above board with their system.
  • Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Just wondering, while dinner cooks, if there is any precedent for Mr Jenrick. I did come across this banning of toys for sick children in the Victorian workhouse. But on further scrutiny they were fine with toys - just that they shouldn't be bought with tax money but come out of "private liberality"; and in fact Government thought that was going too far. Now, spending money to paint over those cartoons ...



    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1883-03-13/debates/a34b0099-a0c7-444a-8f62-e81bb7588c60/PoorLaw(England)—ToysForWorkhouseChildren

    There was an Edwardian chap in that documentary about the first flying car, I believe it’s called “Chitty chitty bang bang”, who had a career making kids’ lives miserable. Never got his name but think he was referred to as “The child catcher” or something. Not the Jimmy Savile doc.
    Some berk a few years ago banning books in prison...
    I seemed to remember that was a similar thing. It wasn't a "book ban" as such, it was that small packages were being used to widely smuggle in contraband. So they banned all small packages being sent in from the outside without special permission, which then people said well that includes books.

    Prisoners weren't banned from books from the prison library etc.
    Rules restricting the number of books a prisoner can have have been overturned by Justice Secretary Michael Gove.

    A limit of 12 books per cell has been removed, while relatives and friends can now send books to inmates directly.

    The rule changes, affecting more than 80,000 inmates in England and Wales, are meant to help prepare inmates for work when released.

    Mr Gove said those "languishing in prison" were "potential assets" who could be "productive and contribute".

    The scrapping of the rules from 1 September is one of Mr Gove's first key changes to prison policy since being appointed as justice secretary.

    The restriction on receiving books directly came as a result of the Incentives and Earned Privileges scheme, introduced in November 2013 under Mr Gove's predecessor, Chris Grayling.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33497581
    Now I'm actually beginning to warm to the putative spokesperson for the Scottish fishing ports of Fraserhead and Peterborough for the first time.
    Gove did some really good work at Justice. He is someone who truly believes in rehabilitation, not just throw away the key.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,029
    boulay said:

    ohnotnow said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    Apparently the writer of “the email” is some kind of pest. There’s a harassment case.

    OMG. Any source on this that it would be appropriate to post?

    This was the third main possibility.

    1 was exy or somebody who is very close to her and who feels her pain.
    2 was a highly capable disinterested professional.
    3 was a nutter who only knows about these people from the media and who is at least borderline psychotic, capable of handling facts but also prone to believing that false stuff he has imagined is true.

    I know of somebody who'd be a fit for 3, a deranged psychology and computer science academic who for many years has plagued a chat site I go to, ranting like a m*f* about what he believes are the extra-marital affairs and unlawfully youngster-focused behaviours of other chatters. He has also carried out harassment off-site. The guy is clever, technically sussed, and highly manipulative. I've always expected he'll end up in jail. Not saying it's him, but such types exist and it could be.
    I highly doubt it was @malcolmg, but you never know.
    Joking aside. The horrifying levels of behaviour that "stalking" is used to describe....

    Most should know of the phenomenon where, after a notorious crime is committed, various sad cases show up to confess to them. All should know of this, since it is a major source of miscarriages of justice - despite them often being known to the police as serial confessors, they become a useful way to close a case quickly.

    This happens in many countries.

    There is a horrible equivalent, less spoken of, of people who elaborately stalk and accuse *other* people of crimes. One lady I know was relentlessly stalked by it turned out, a female co-worker, who made elaborate attempts to frame her for various things, stole her identity and a bunch of mad, crazy shit beyond that. In many ways, it could have been worse, if the stalker had been less batshit - then the accusations and faked evidence could have actually worked.

    The correct answer when someone says "I can't belief that someone would fake a report/accusation of crime X" is "It has happened. Many times."
    I had an online stalker a few years ago. It was odd and a bit unsettling. They would track me around various websites/social media places then send messages to all my 'friends' saying things like "Do you know his secret?", "Have you heard the rumours?" etc etc. Thankfully they all either ignored it or blocked them.

    But I was left kind of puzzled and disquieted. Who were they? ... Why? My main secret is being a boring podgy middle-aged IT worker rather than the frankly fascinating glitterati I appear on sites such as this.
    Hello ohnotnow, I’m back. And I know your secrets.
    God, both of them? The second one about the shoddy ethernet cabling in my flat? Hot damn...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167
    edited July 2023
    ..
    Carnyx said:

    ohnotnow said:

    DavidL said:

    Scotland currently operates under a de facto decriminalisation policy for personal drug use. Unlike a criminal justice approach, our focus is primarily on public health. However, it is important not to be swayed by exaggerated claims. While Scotland and England have similar drug laws, England has significantly lower drug-related mortality rates, in fact they have 5 times less deaths than Scotland, indicating that their treatment system is more effective. The solution is not elusive; it simply requires a commitment to practical measures. It is crucial to recognise that politicians often engage in political maneuvering on this issue, and we should not be easily swayed by their rhetoric. The serious academic community has yet to reach a definitive consensus on the evidence supporting decriminalisation and legalisation, so we should approach this issue with caution.

    https://twitter.com/Annemarieward/status/1677358823860838409?s=20

    The mortality rate between Scotland and England is frankly bewildering. The Misuse of Drugs Act applies to both countries. The regulatory regimes are similar. The medical services are pretty similar. What the hell makes the difference?

    The people dying now are the Trainspotting generation of long term drug users. We seemed to go through a period in the 1980s where drug usage, particularly of opiates, just went out of control and we have never recovered. Many of the reasons are historical and I would not by any means blame the current government for all of it but jeez, we have lost more people to drugs over the last 20 years than you would expect from a medium sized war. We really, really need to try something else.
    Edinburgh and Glasgow both had massive heroin problems 80s/90s, and anyone who survived that back in the day is an absolute mess now - they don't make old bones. Also alcohol abuse is still endemic, despite things like minimum pricing.

    Factor in the huge drug problems in coastal towns (drugs arrive via boat and are relatively cheap), and that much of Scotland is coastal.

    Sadly, young people who don't go off to university/college or into a decent job are particularly vulnerable to this. One of my friends has lost two young male family members to overdose in their 20s/30s - coastal Scotland. All the kids in the family who completed their education/training went on to live stable lives.
    Speaking personally of Glasgow - there's also a certain Nihilism that I've not experienced so much in England outside of some of the depressed areas of Sheffield etc. Maybe common amongst formerly industrial areas - but I still feel it's more common here.
    I don't suppose the Glasgow effect and the most likely cause of it (an historical policy of getting viable younger people out to new towns and letting the inner city and its inhabitatants run down) helps.
    For reasons I won't go into I've had a bit of recent contact with local drug users who have been in the life since the 80s. They've pretty much beat the odds to still be around but are very fragile physically. They're in some ways the usual mixture, charismatic, funny, gentle, or rsoles who'd pimp their granny, sometimes in the same package.
    There was a medical appliances shop in the Pubic Triangle area of Edinburgh which I used to frequent, the area I mean, as it had/has excellent 2/hand bookshops. It used to sell clean disposable needles. But, as I understand matters, a born-again holier-than-thou local police chief was not impressed, and applied pressure. Whence the HIV epidemic. That generation would indeed be in their 50s-ish now, and beginning to fall apart health wise.
    I went to the art school so knew the area quite well (the pub(ic)s and the bookshops) but didn't know about the needle supplier. Putting a stopper in the genie's bottle of sin was never much good for prevention or cure.

    Very fond memories of the Tap of Lauriston.
This discussion has been closed.