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How BoJo can still go on hurting the Tories – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited July 2023 in General
imageHow BoJo can still go on hurting the Tories – politicalbetting.com

Channel 4 is broadcasting the above documentary tomorrow and my guess is this has the potential to cause embarrassment for the Tories even though the leader and PM at the time, Johnson has moved on and is no longer an MP

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    At tail-end of last thread, meme "Joe Biden as Bloated Plutocrat" replaced "Joe Biden as Demented Vegetable".

    Might this be followed by "Joe Biden as (Woke) Alien Invader?" Or maybe "Joe Biden as (Trans) Demon Lover"?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    On Topic - Boris Johnson is a {banned word} inside a cad wrapped in a bounder.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    At tail-end of last thread, meme "Joe Biden as Bloated Plutocrat" replaced "Joe Biden as Demented Vegetable".

    Might this be followed by "Joe Biden as (Woke) Alien Invader?" Or maybe "Joe Biden as (Trans) Demon Lover"?

    Joe Biden as Woke Trans Gay Illegal Alien AI

    Please get it right.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    On topic - maybe. It is interesting how rapidly Johnson became yesterdays man.

    The hoped for rage in his new column in the Mail turned out to be mid range Jeremy Clarkson.

    The only thing left is to see if he manages to cross over with the leader of Alba in Scottish polling.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    At tail-end of last thread, meme "Joe Biden as Bloated Plutocrat" replaced "Joe Biden as Demented Vegetable".

    Might this be followed by "Joe Biden as (Woke) Alien Invader?" Or maybe "Joe Biden as (Trans) Demon Lover"?

    Joe Biden as Woke Trans Gay Illegal Alien AI

    Please get it right.
    That escaped from a lab in Wuhan
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    In other news - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65989993

    Which is a combination of “expected” and “another one?”
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    On topic, the Tories have been riddled with Russian money for years. Some on here have bleated that these are ex-Russians and how dare we be racist etc. Yeah, whatever. Its a problem. Hence the documentary. Tories taking cash for influence shock. Or non-shock...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411
    I see twelve Spartans were elected to the Greek parliament.

    I really hope one of them is called Leonidas.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    On topic - maybe. It is interesting how rapidly Johnson became yesterdays man.

    The hoped for rage in his new column in the Mail turned out to be mid range Jeremy Clarkson.

    The only thing left is to see if he manages to cross over with the leader of Alba in Scottish polling.

    When You're Hot You're Hot (And When You're Not You're Not) - Jerry Reed
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LE2xXQwbWQ
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    Meanwhile, fascinating piece in the Guardian from John Harris.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/25/britain-crises-hopelessness-market-towns-suburbs

    He has done an awful lot of reporting from outside of Westminster over the decades, from almost everywhere. And he reports that exhaustion and political hopelessness has seeped into the shires and market towns in a way it hadn't done before.

    Fundamentally there is no way back for this government, and as their own sense of hopelessness sets in, watch for the schism that has wrecked the parliamentary Tory party have one final attempt to make a terrible situation worse.

    Having tried and failed to exorcise voters with "yebbut Starmer doesn't know what a woman is", the only defence is "he will do all the things we're doing but refuse to admit like an open door immigration policy" and "he's a bit crap and doesn't have all the answers".

    Which points to a big crash in turnout, which will hit Tories more than any other party, a Labour majority but in sane rather than silly territory, and hopefully a cross-party realisation that absolutism is the mess we are in and consensus facing into the Big Issues needs to happen.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    TimS said:

    At tail-end of last thread, meme "Joe Biden as Bloated Plutocrat" replaced "Joe Biden as Demented Vegetable".

    Might this be followed by "Joe Biden as (Woke) Alien Invader?" Or maybe "Joe Biden as (Trans) Demon Lover"?

    Joe Biden as Woke Trans Gay Illegal Alien AI

    Please get it right.
    That escaped from a lab in Wuhan
    Lab.in.wuhan, surely?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411
    So, Boris did threaten to overrule them?

    Oh, for a Paxman interview with him on this.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    Good morning

    This story is not new, and while it may excite some political obsessives, it is what is happening to their own budgets with the continuing cost of living crisis plus this mortgage crisis that will really upset those on the Clapham Bus

    The conservatives will pay the price but the hard decisions Sunak and Hunt are taking will be passed over to Starmer who will face exactly the same insoluble problems which are likely to be ever present in his first administration

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717

    I see twelve Spartans were elected to the Greek parliament.

    I really hope one of them is called Leonidas.

    If only

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805

    Good morning

    This story is not new, and while it may excite some political obsessives, it is what is happening to their own budgets with the continuing cost of living crisis plus this mortgage crisis that will really upset those on the Clapham Bus

    The conservatives will pay the price but the hard decisions Sunak and Hunt are taking will be passed over to Starmer who will face exactly the same insoluble problems which are likely to be ever present in his first administration

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are

    Excellent post, @Big_G_NorthWales

    I agree with every word.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    But who is to blame for overleveraging than the people themselves? Interest rates can go up as well as remain at record lows for over a decade.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078
    Greetings from sunny Tallinn.

    A few comments, which I shared with a few friends yesterday.

    Needed explanations: "Vory", the thieves,- the current regime, VVP- Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin, EVP,- Evgeny Viktorovitch Prigrozhin.

    This was a sort of fake coup. The column may not have left Rostov but somebody shot down the helos and the SIGINT plane.

    1) a lot less to Wagner than conventional wisdom has believed. Prigrozhin is a sock puppet. This was not Putin v Prigrozhin, this was one part of the inner circle of the Vory attacking another using Prigrozhin as a proxy. Putin was forced to make a choice, but his delay nearly created a terminal crisis, and the inner circle of the Vory will take note. PM Mistushin is in trouble and obviously those who took discreet holidays in the last 48 hours. The meeting of the security council this week will include a major reshuffle of the government. What is wrong with VVP? He seems totally listless. I think the mooted meeting of the Security Council this week might even see an open challenge, and it is not certain that he can hang on. Could it be that he really is ill?

    Clearly the Vory are close to breaking themselves. Navalny might be on the plane to Moscow within a week at this rate.

    2) The real is that Shoigu and Gerasimov are now out. The “uprising” was over the moment that deal was done.

    Cui Bono? Surovikin and the FSB. Who loses? Draw your own conclusions, but a negative round for VVP.

    Reveals that the fake Union Presidency does have a purpose in the real world- reversion to a higher authority when the Vory are deadlocked. However Luko did not do the deal, The inner circle, possibly led by Patrushev, did.

    Some respect from the Vory, for bravery of EVP which is why, so far, they let him live, even though Prigrozhin was not inside the inner circle of the Vory, the code still covers him, and the inner circle realized that he (EVP) had dealt with too much in Bakhmut, had cracked and it was time to get him out.

    3) Ukraine needs more help to win this war, and Enerhodar is in terrible danger. Beijing may have lost Mistushin (it remains to be seen if he can stay in place, I´m guessing no), but Luko has really come good for them. I think China may be calling at least some of the shots here, which is a bit reassuring, since they have already spoken openly against any Russian nuclear options.

    The risks are indeed terrifying. As I understand it, the threat of NATO full on retaliation for any nuclear move includes radiological attacks (i.e. Enerhodar) as well as any use of n-weapons, but I think it would be well to convey this by any means possible. They question now is… to whom? Minister of Defence under house arrest, Chief of Defence Staff missing in action, President´s whereabouts unknown. Meanwhile 6 nuclear reactors are under the control of drunken morons who enjoy playing with matches.

    I certainly am praying.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Good morning

    This story is not new, and while it may excite some political obsessives, it is what is happening to their own budgets with the continuing cost of living crisis plus this mortgage crisis that will really upset those on the Clapham Bus

    The conservatives will pay the price but the hard decisions Sunak and Hunt are taking will be passed over to Starmer who will face exactly the same insoluble problems which are likely to be ever present in his first administration

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are

    My party are back into the Happy Place of being able to sing appealing songs to voters. We won't be in government after the election, the policies will not become law, nobody need worry.

    They are simply protest notes proffered at blue wall Tories to stoke their anger. Like a Daily Mail front page about curries. Only less fascist.
    The problem with that line is that you become part of a propaganda “wall” that keeps the shit rolling.

    “All the politicians said….”

    This is why oppositions need to oppose.

    This stuff, like promoting NIMBYism, makes you a part of the problem.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    So, Boris did threaten to overrule them?

    Oh, for a Paxman interview with him on this.

    "What you've got to understand Jeremy is that a Wookie simply wouldn't live on Endor. He would be too tall. And that's what at the crux of this matter. Does it make sense that a Wookie would live on Endor? And if it does not, then you need to accept that I did nothing wrong in securing a peerage for that nice man."
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419

    At tail-end of last thread, meme "Joe Biden as Bloated Plutocrat" replaced "Joe Biden as Demented Vegetable".

    Might this be followed by "Joe Biden as (Woke) Alien Invader?" Or maybe "Joe Biden as (Trans) Demon Lover"?

    Are those two personality traits mutually exclusive?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    tlg86 said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    But who is to blame for overleveraging than the people themselves? Interest rates can go up as well as remain at record lows for over a decade.
    Sadly we live in a world where reckless behaviour by individuals becomes a stick for the media and other idiots with which to beat the government. The idea that interest rates must stay low for ever is so insanely stupid as to beggar belief as is the idea of RP accusing others of 'sneering'.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    I've previously posted about the debt avalanche which is going to sweep away a stack of businesses this winter. Rent is part of that avalanche - difficult to keep trading when you can't afford to switch the lights on in the morning.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Cicero said:

    Greetings from sunny Tallinn.

    A few comments, which I shared with a few friends yesterday.

    Needed explanations: "Vory", the thieves,- the current regime, VVP- Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin, EVP,- Evgeny Viktorovitch Prigrozhin.

    This was a sort of fake coup. The column may not have left Rostov but somebody shot down the helos and the SIGINT plane.

    1) a lot less to Wagner than conventional wisdom has believed. Prigrozhin is a sock puppet. This was not Putin v Prigrozhin, this was one part of the inner circle of the Vory attacking another using Prigrozhin as a proxy. Putin was forced to make a choice, but his delay nearly created a terminal crisis, and the inner circle of the Vory will take note. PM Mistushin is in trouble and obviously those who took discreet holidays in the last 48 hours. The meeting of the security council this week will include a major reshuffle of the government. What is wrong with VVP? He seems totally listless. I think the mooted meeting of the Security Council this week might even see an open challenge, and it is not certain that he can hang on. Could it be that he really is ill?

    Clearly the Vory are close to breaking themselves. Navalny might be on the plane to Moscow within a week at this rate.

    2) The real is that Shoigu and Gerasimov are now out. The “uprising” was over the moment that deal was done.

    Cui Bono? Surovikin and the FSB. Who loses? Draw your own conclusions, but a negative round for VVP.

    Reveals that the fake Union Presidency does have a purpose in the real world- reversion to a higher authority when the Vory are deadlocked. However Luko did not do the deal, The inner circle, possibly led by Patrushev, did.

    Some respect from the Vory, for bravery of EVP which is why, so far, they let him live, even though Prigrozhin was not inside the inner circle of the Vory, the code still covers him, and the inner circle realized that he (EVP) had dealt with too much in Bakhmut, had cracked and it was time to get him out.

    3) Ukraine needs more help to win this war, and Enerhodar is in terrible danger. Beijing may have lost Mistushin (it remains to be seen if he can stay in place, I´m guessing no), but Luko has really come good for them. I think China may be calling at least some of the shots here, which is a bit reassuring, since they have already spoken openly against any Russian nuclear options.

    The risks are indeed terrifying. As I understand it, the threat of NATO full on retaliation for any nuclear move includes radiological attacks (i.e. Enerhodar) as well as any use of n-weapons, but I think it would be well to convey this by any means possible. They question now is… to whom? Minister of Defence under house arrest, Chief of Defence Staff missing in action, President´s whereabouts unknown. Meanwhile 6 nuclear reactors are under the control of drunken morons who enjoy playing with matches.

    I certainly am praying.

    I agree that this was some kind of proxy game.

    I think the spark for it is this - Ukraine is making steady, but slow progress, breaking through the Russian defence lines.

    These lines are more about minefields than anything. These are there to slow down and canalise any attacks. The defenders are there, as much to protect the minefields as they are to shoot at the attackers. An undefended minefield is not much of an obstacle.

    The Ukrainians have a number of modern, Western, minefield breaching vehicles. These work slowly and only create lanes through the minefields. This makes the progress slow and very dangerous.

    However, the advance is continuing.

    It will be evident to those in Moscow, that it is a matter of time before the Ukrainians reach the last serious defence lines. More are being prepared, but there is a shortage of everything.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    felix said:

    tlg86 said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    But who is to blame for overleveraging than the people themselves? Interest rates can go up as well as remain at record lows for over a decade.
    Sadly we live in a world where reckless behaviour by individuals becomes a stick for the media and other idiots with which to beat the government. The idea that interest rates must stay low for ever is so insanely stupid as to beggar belief as is the idea of RP accusing others of 'sneering'.
    I accuse the Tory MPs who sneer of sneering. Because they sneer. Exhibit 1: Lee 30p Anderson, currently vice chair of the Conservative Party.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900

    Good morning

    This story is not new, and while it may excite some political obsessives, it is what is happening to their own budgets with the continuing cost of living crisis plus this mortgage crisis that will really upset those on the Clapham Bus

    The conservatives will pay the price but the hard decisions Sunak and Hunt are taking will be passed over to Starmer who will face exactly the same insoluble problems which are likely to be ever present in his first administration

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are

    My party are back into the Happy Place of being able to sing appealing songs to voters. We won't be in government after the election, the policies will not become law, nobody need worry.

    They are simply protest notes proffered at blue wall Tories to stoke their anger. Like a Daily Mail front page about curries. Only less fascist.
    The problem with that line is that you become part of a propaganda “wall” that keeps the shit rolling.

    “All the politicians said….”

    This is why oppositions need to oppose.

    This stuff, like promoting NIMBYism, makes you a part of the problem.
    I entirely agree - it is blatant opportunism.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    a Labour majority but in sane rather than silly territory, and hopefully a cross-party realisation that absolutism is the mess we are in and consensus facing into the Big Issues needs to happen.

    Start with Brexit...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Cicero said:

    Greetings from sunny Tallinn.

    A few comments, which I shared with a few friends yesterday.

    Needed explanations: "Vory", the thieves,- the current regime, VVP- Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin, EVP,- Evgeny Viktorovitch Prigrozhin.

    This was a sort of fake coup. The column may not have left Rostov but somebody shot down the helos and the SIGINT plane.

    1) a lot less to Wagner than conventional wisdom has believed. Prigrozhin is a sock puppet. This was not Putin v Prigrozhin, this was one part of the inner circle of the Vory attacking another using Prigrozhin as a proxy. Putin was forced to make a choice, but his delay nearly created a terminal crisis, and the inner circle of the Vory will take note. PM Mistushin is in trouble and obviously those who took discreet holidays in the last 48 hours. The meeting of the security council this week will include a major reshuffle of the government. What is wrong with VVP? He seems totally listless. I think the mooted meeting of the Security Council this week might even see an open challenge, and it is not certain that he can hang on. Could it be that he really is ill?

    Clearly the Vory are close to breaking themselves. Navalny might be on the plane to Moscow within a week at this rate.

    2) The real is that Shoigu and Gerasimov are now out. The “uprising” was over the moment that deal was done.

    Cui Bono? Surovikin and the FSB. Who loses? Draw your own conclusions, but a negative round for VVP.

    Reveals that the fake Union Presidency does have a purpose in the real world- reversion to a higher authority when the Vory are deadlocked. However Luko did not do the deal, The inner circle, possibly led by Patrushev, did.

    Some respect from the Vory, for bravery of EVP which is why, so far, they let him live, even though Prigrozhin was not inside the inner circle of the Vory, the code still covers him, and the inner circle realized that he (EVP) had dealt with too much in Bakhmut, had cracked and it was time to get him out.

    3) Ukraine needs more help to win this war, and Enerhodar is in terrible danger. Beijing may have lost Mistushin (it remains to be seen if he can stay in place, I´m guessing no), but Luko has really come good for them. I think China may be calling at least some of the shots here, which is a bit reassuring, since they have already spoken openly against any Russian nuclear options.

    The risks are indeed terrifying. As I understand it, the threat of NATO full on retaliation for any nuclear move includes radiological attacks (i.e. Enerhodar) as well as any use of n-weapons, but I think it would be well to convey this by any means possible. They question now is… to whom? Minister of Defence under house arrest, Chief of Defence Staff missing in action, President´s whereabouts unknown. Meanwhile 6 nuclear reactors are under the control of drunken morons who enjoy playing with matches.

    I certainly am praying.

    News from Lake Wobegon (Baltic Edition).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806
    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:

    Greetings from sunny Tallinn.

    A few comments, which I shared with a few friends yesterday.

    Needed explanations: "Vory", the thieves,- the current regime, VVP- Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin, EVP,- Evgeny Viktorovitch Prigrozhin.

    This was a sort of fake coup. The column may not have left Rostov but somebody shot down the helos and the SIGINT plane.

    1) a lot less to Wagner than conventional wisdom has believed. Prigrozhin is a sock puppet. This was not Putin v Prigrozhin, this was one part of the inner circle of the Vory attacking another using Prigrozhin as a proxy. Putin was forced to make a choice, but his delay nearly created a terminal crisis, and the inner circle of the Vory will take note. PM Mistushin is in trouble and obviously those who took discreet holidays in the last 48 hours. The meeting of the security council this week will include a major reshuffle of the government. What is wrong with VVP? He seems totally listless. I think the mooted meeting of the Security Council this week might even see an open challenge, and it is not certain that he can hang on. Could it be that he really is ill?

    Clearly the Vory are close to breaking themselves. Navalny might be on the plane to Moscow within a week at this rate.

    2) The real is that Shoigu and Gerasimov are now out. The “uprising” was over the moment that deal was done.

    Cui Bono? Surovikin and the FSB. Who loses? Draw your own conclusions, but a negative round for VVP.

    Reveals that the fake Union Presidency does have a purpose in the real world- reversion to a higher authority when the Vory are deadlocked. However Luko did not do the deal, The inner circle, possibly led by Patrushev, did.

    Some respect from the Vory, for bravery of EVP which is why, so far, they let him live, even though Prigrozhin was not inside the inner circle of the Vory, the code still covers him, and the inner circle realized that he (EVP) had dealt with too much in Bakhmut, had cracked and it was time to get him out.

    3) Ukraine needs more help to win this war, and Enerhodar is in terrible danger. Beijing may have lost Mistushin (it remains to be seen if he can stay in place, I´m guessing no), but Luko has really come good for them. I think China may be calling at least some of the shots here, which is a bit reassuring, since they have already spoken openly against any Russian nuclear options.

    The risks are indeed terrifying. As I understand it, the threat of NATO full on retaliation for any nuclear move includes radiological attacks (i.e. Enerhodar) as well as any use of n-weapons, but I think it would be well to convey this by any means possible. They question now is… to whom? Minister of Defence under house arrest, Chief of Defence Staff missing in action, President´s whereabouts unknown. Meanwhile 6 nuclear reactors are under the control of drunken morons who enjoy playing with matches.

    I certainly am praying.

    News from Lake Wobegon (Baltic Edition).
    Funny comment, but I suspect the analysis is as close to the truth as anything else we’ve seen. I said on Saturday there was a decent chance this was theatre, albeit it got out of control.

    And completely agree with Energodar. Russia has to be told very loudly that any accidents there will result in consequences.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Replace Biden with Trump, and this turns from piss take to fairly credible.
    https://twitter.com/DylanBurns1776/status/1673130698826293250
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:


    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.

    I monitor the used 911 market with the same obsessive intensity as Baldy Ben staring at the last chip on the plate. It's still very healthy for desirable cars (GT3, manuals, no sunroof, etc.) but it's starting to drop away at the edges for cars that aren't thoughtfully specced (yellow Targa with Turbo S wheels FFS).

    Any large 6 cylinder diesel that's not in an SUV is now going for crack money. That market is dead.

    In the new market there is a lot of shitbox inventory and subsequent carnage for new prices. If you want a Corsa (and have been duly lobotomised to enable that decision) then now is the time bargain hard for one.

    On the whole, the car market isn't in secular decline but there are very ominous signs. My advice is don't lease a McLaren Artura.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032

    Good morning

    This story is not new, and while it may excite some political obsessives, it is what is happening to their own budgets with the continuing cost of living crisis plus this mortgage crisis that will really upset those on the Clapham Bus

    The conservatives will pay the price but the hard decisions Sunak and Hunt are taking will be passed over to Starmer who will face exactly the same insoluble problems which are likely to be ever present in his first administration

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are

    My party are back into the Happy Place of being able to sing appealing songs to voters. We won't be in government after the election, the policies will not become law, nobody need worry.

    They are simply protest notes proffered at blue wall Tories to stoke their anger. Like a Daily Mail front page about curries. Only less fascist.
    The problem with that line is that you become part of a propaganda “wall” that keeps the shit rolling.

    “All the politicians said….”

    This is why oppositions need to oppose.

    This stuff, like promoting NIMBYism, makes you a part of the problem.
    I entirely agree - it is blatant opportunism.
    And you correctly attack Johnson, but at the same time celebrate the lib dems playing politics with people's lives
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited June 2023
    felix said:

    tlg86 said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    But who is to blame for overleveraging than the people themselves? Interest rates can go up as well as remain at record lows for over a decade.
    Sadly we live in a world where reckless behaviour by individuals becomes a stick for the media and other idiots with which to beat the government. The idea that interest rates must stay low for ever is so insanely stupid as to beggar belief as is the idea of RP accusing others of 'sneering'.
    Didn't the ruling party keep telling us how well it was managing the economy and providing the grounds for business to flourish? Doesn't it want to accept the credit for that?

    The inflation of rents is hardly somerthing the average small business can have forese3en, for instance, or the buggeration of their EU trade thanks to Brexit.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078
    O/T...

    It is not just Boris that has had questionable relationships with and in Russia.

    It is matter of public record that Dominic Cummings lived there for several years and that Somerset Capital Management (Prop. J. Rees Mogg) previously had important investments with and in Russian companies.

    It is also a matter of public record that at least £4 million was donated to the Conservative Party by dual Russian/British citizens.

    No suggestion of illegal activity in any case, but I believe that there are questions to answer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Good point from an interesting thread.
    The price of decades cultivating civil apathy.

    As some of the Turkey expert community has pointed out, the reaction when a faction of the TSK sought to oust Erdogan on 2016 was vastly different. People blocked tanks with their bodies. Who was willing to die for Putin?
    https://twitter.com/DrJMankoff/status/1673123274597838848
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900

    Good morning

    This story is not new, and while it may excite some political obsessives, it is what is happening to their own budgets with the continuing cost of living crisis plus this mortgage crisis that will really upset those on the Clapham Bus

    The conservatives will pay the price but the hard decisions Sunak and Hunt are taking will be passed over to Starmer who will face exactly the same insoluble problems which are likely to be ever present in his first administration

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are

    My party are back into the Happy Place of being able to sing appealing songs to voters. We won't be in government after the election, the policies will not become law, nobody need worry.

    They are simply protest notes proffered at blue wall Tories to stoke their anger. Like a Daily Mail front page about curries. Only less fascist.
    The problem with that line is that you become part of a propaganda “wall” that keeps the shit rolling.

    “All the politicians said….”

    This is why oppositions need to oppose.

    This stuff, like promoting NIMBYism, makes you a part of the problem.
    I entirely agree - it is blatant opportunism.
    And you correctly attack Johnson, but at the same time celebrate the lib dems playing politics with people's lives
    How are the LibDems doing that? What needs to happen to improve the lives of everyone is remove the Tories from office. Some voters still need a bit of an incentive, so something is proffered to influence them.

    Considering how hard you ramped the Daily Heil's Currygate thing, you can't really object to my lot doing its own piece of propagandising. Or was the Heil's attempt - cheered on by you - to keep the Tories in office not "playing politics with people's lives?"

    They need to go. Voters aren't stupid, they know the LibDems will be nowhere near office after the election. The Tories could be, yet their own economically illiterate policies apparently are ok for people to support because Starmer doesn't know what a woman is etc.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Good morning

    This story is not new, and while it may excite some political obsessives, it is what is happening to their own budgets with the continuing cost of living crisis plus this mortgage crisis that will really upset those on the Clapham Bus

    The conservatives will pay the price but the hard decisions Sunak and Hunt are taking will be passed over to Starmer who will face exactly the same insoluble problems which are likely to be ever present in his first administration

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are

    My party are back into the Happy Place of being able to sing appealing songs to voters. We won't be in government after the election, the policies will not become law, nobody need worry.

    They are simply protest notes proffered at blue wall Tories to stoke their anger. Like a Daily Mail front page about curries. Only less fascist.
    The problem with that line is that you become part of a propaganda “wall” that keeps the shit rolling.

    “All the politicians said….”

    This is why oppositions need to oppose.

    This stuff, like promoting NIMBYism, makes you a part of the problem.
    I entirely agree - it is blatant opportunism.
    The problem isn’t the opportunism. It is populism of the bad kind. It reinforces the belief that bad policies are the corrects answer.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    edited June 2023



    The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.

    Mercedes are an ancient and storied marque with incredible brand equity. Even if the products were broadly similar most punters would prefer a Merc over a BY-fucking-D and will pay a hefty premium for it over MG, BYD, etc. I could see technology co-operation (see Ford/GM on transmissions) but there isn't going to be a single premium car brand warehouse.

    I do think the groups with a plethora of brands (VAG, Stellantis) will have to rationalise in the same way that the US OEMs had to by shedding brands. Although VAG's strategy at the moment appears to be to create new brands (Rimac, Cupra).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,575
    Cicero said:

    O/T...

    It is not just Boris that has had questionable relationships with and in Russia.

    It is matter of public record that Dominic Cummings lived there for several years and that Somerset Capital Management (Prop. J. Rees Mogg) previously had important investments with and in Russian companies.

    It is also a matter of public record that at least £4 million was donated to the Conservative Party by dual Russian/British citizens.

    No suggestion of illegal activity in any case, but I believe that there are questions to answer.

    The problem is, the same can be said for Labour as well, especially when they were in power. Lord Mandelson, for instance.

    I'd like *all* parties to be much clearer and cleaner when it comes to funding. Sadly, this is probably impossible without public funding of political parties, and all the mess that creates.

    (Incidentally, when it comes to dodgy peerages, how on earth was Mandelson allowed to enter the HoL? Someone who was forced to resign twice for dodgy dealings.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    Scott_xP said:

    a Labour majority but in sane rather than silly territory, and hopefully a cross-party realisation that absolutism is the mess we are in and consensus facing into the Big Issues needs to happen.

    Start with Brexit...
    Brexit is Chimera's Wreck. People increasingly know its at best failed miserably and at worst been a disaster. And they certainly know that the siren songs from Johnson Farage and the right wing press were lies.

    The problem is that having been all in on the siren songs, any notes of it drifting through the air still catch their attention. Which is why Starmer very sensibly gives it a wide berth for now.

    Brexit is done. We aren't going to rejoin any time soon, and as people have been so gaslit as to believe the EEA is the EU or the CU is the EU, saying we would look to even align with either of them is a risk as well.

    We are where we are. What we can focus on instead is fixing the economy and finding ways to bring hope and pride and investment back to people's communities. Which will mean at least complete alignment with the EEA and CU. But focus on the future, not the past.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    For real ?

    Wagner Head Prigozhin’s Past Life as a Children’s Author and Illustrator
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/01/wagner-head-prigozhins-past-life-as-a-childrens-author-and-illustrator-a81358
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Off topic: A lot of people on here seem to think the TV series Succession is very good, so I watched the first two episodes last night. That's two hours of my life I won't get back. What a load of rubbish.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Nigelb said:

    Replace Biden with Trump, and this turns from piss take to fairly credible.
    https://twitter.com/DylanBurns1776/status/1673130698826293250

    Doesn't work.

    I mean, Prigozhin may be a loathsome Tristram Hunt but to compare his cooking to Macdonald's 'food' is going way, waaaaaay too far.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    Dura_Ace said:



    The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.

    Mercedes are an ancient and storied marque with incredible brand equity. Even if the products were broadly similar most punters would prefer a Merc over a BY-fucking-D and will pay a hefty premium for it. MG, BYD, etc. I could see technology co-operation (see Ford/GM on transmissions) but there isn't going to be a single premium car brand warehouse.

    I do think the groups with a plethora of brands (VAG, Stellantis) will have to rationalise in the same way that the US OEMs had to by shedding brands. Although VAG's strategy at the moment appears to be to create new brands (Rimac, Cupra).
    Punters only preferred Audi/BMW/Mercedes over Vauxhall because those brands offered ludicrous finance deals to get leased /PCPd vehicles onto their driveway. Before such cheap cash was on the table, nobody mass market could afford them and instead the competition was Ford vs Vauxhall vs Rover etc.

    If Mercedes etc continue to push this huge increase in prices for electric, and western governments continue the rapid electrification targets, it won't matter whether people would prefer a Merc, they won't be able to buy one.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    tlg86 said:

    Off topic: A lot of people on here seem to think the TV series Succession is very good, so I watched the first two episodes last night. That's two hours of my life I won't get back. What a load of rubbish.

    Keep going - its fabulous. You're *supposed* to find them all disgusting. That's the whole point.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:

    Greetings from sunny Tallinn.

    A few comments, which I shared with a few friends yesterday.

    Needed explanations: "Vory", the thieves,- the current regime, VVP- Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin, EVP,- Evgeny Viktorovitch Prigrozhin.

    This was a sort of fake coup. The column may not have left Rostov but somebody shot down the helos and the SIGINT plane.

    1) a lot less to Wagner than conventional wisdom has believed. Prigrozhin is a sock puppet. This was not Putin v Prigrozhin, this was one part of the inner circle of the Vory attacking another using Prigrozhin as a proxy. Putin was forced to make a choice, but his delay nearly created a terminal crisis, and the inner circle of the Vory will take note. PM Mistushin is in trouble and obviously those who took discreet holidays in the last 48 hours. The meeting of the security council this week will include a major reshuffle of the government. What is wrong with VVP? He seems totally listless. I think the mooted meeting of the Security Council this week might even see an open challenge, and it is not certain that he can hang on. Could it be that he really is ill?

    Clearly the Vory are close to breaking themselves. Navalny might be on the plane to Moscow within a week at this rate.

    2) The real is that Shoigu and Gerasimov are now out. The “uprising” was over the moment that deal was done.

    Cui Bono? Surovikin and the FSB. Who loses? Draw your own conclusions, but a negative round for VVP.

    Reveals that the fake Union Presidency does have a purpose in the real world- reversion to a higher authority when the Vory are deadlocked. However Luko did not do the deal, The inner circle, possibly led by Patrushev, did.

    Some respect from the Vory, for bravery of EVP which is why, so far, they let him live, even though Prigrozhin was not inside the inner circle of the Vory, the code still covers him, and the inner circle realized that he (EVP) had dealt with too much in Bakhmut, had cracked and it was time to get him out.

    3) Ukraine needs more help to win this war, and Enerhodar is in terrible danger. Beijing may have lost Mistushin (it remains to be seen if he can stay in place, I´m guessing no), but Luko has really come good for them. I think China may be calling at least some of the shots here, which is a bit reassuring, since they have already spoken openly against any Russian nuclear options.

    The risks are indeed terrifying. As I understand it, the threat of NATO full on retaliation for any nuclear move includes radiological attacks (i.e. Enerhodar) as well as any use of n-weapons, but I think it would be well to convey this by any means possible. They question now is… to whom? Minister of Defence under house arrest, Chief of Defence Staff missing in action, President´s whereabouts unknown. Meanwhile 6 nuclear reactors are under the control of drunken morons who enjoy playing with matches.

    I certainly am praying.

    News from Lake Wobegon (Baltic Edition).
    Funny comment, but I suspect the analysis is as close to the truth as anything else we’ve seen. I said on Saturday there was a decent chance this was theatre, albeit it got out of control.

    And completely agree with Energodar. Russia has to be told very loudly that any accidents there will result in consequences.
    What consequences though?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited June 2023

    Good morning

    This story is not new, and while it may excite some political obsessives, it is what is happening to their own budgets with the continuing cost of living crisis plus this mortgage crisis that will really upset those on the Clapham Bus

    The conservatives will pay the price but the hard decisions Sunak and Hunt are taking will be passed over to Starmer who will face exactly the same insoluble problems which are likely to be ever present in his first administration

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are

    My party are back into the Happy Place of being able to sing appealing songs to voters. We won't be in government after the election, the policies will not become law, nobody need worry.

    They are simply protest notes proffered at blue wall Tories to stoke their anger. Like a Daily Mail front page about curries. Only less fascist.
    The problem with that line is that you become part of a propaganda “wall” that keeps the shit rolling.

    “All the politicians said….”

    This is why oppositions need to oppose.

    This stuff, like promoting NIMBYism, makes you a part of the problem.
    I entirely agree - it is blatant opportunism.
    And you correctly attack Johnson, but at the same time celebrate the lib dems playing politics with people's lives
    What exactly is that post supposed to mean? Are you suggesting a form of politics that does not have consequences for people’s lives? I’m not sure you have this “politics” lark quite figured out.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,575

    Scott_xP said:

    a Labour majority but in sane rather than silly territory, and hopefully a cross-party realisation that absolutism is the mess we are in and consensus facing into the Big Issues needs to happen.

    Start with Brexit...
    Brexit is Chimera's Wreck. People increasingly know its at best failed miserably and at worst been a disaster. And they certainly know that the siren songs from Johnson Farage and the right wing press were lies.

    The problem is that having been all in on the siren songs, any notes of it drifting through the air still catch their attention. Which is why Starmer very sensibly gives it a wide berth for now.

    Brexit is done. We aren't going to rejoin any time soon, and as people have been so gaslit as to believe the EEA is the EU or the CU is the EU, saying we would look to even align with either of them is a risk as well.

    We are where we are. What we can focus on instead is fixing the economy and finding ways to bring hope and pride and investment back to people's communities. Which will mean at least complete alignment with the EEA and CU. But focus on the future, not the past.
    Agree with this, but it doesn't mean that the hardcore europhobes and brexiteers should be let off the hook. They've harmed the country they claim to love, and few of them seem to take responsibility for it.

    (Having said that, there is still a chance that Brexit works out in the medium and long term. I wouldn't bet on it, though.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/26/hmrc-fined-184000-low-earners-for-not-filing-return-despite-no-tax-owing

    'HM Revenue and Customs handed out fines to 184,000 people paid less than £12,500 a year – the level under which people were then not subject to income tax – in the 2020-21 financial year (the latest for which full figures are available) for failing to complete a self-assessment tax form on time.

    Many of these people, already in severe financial difficulties, misunderstood the initial fine and were then subjected to further fines and interest. Some people were left facing fines of thousands of pounds, which would take them many years to pay.'

    I suppose they have to make up for all those IHT allowances to well-off Tory voters. But really? Almost 20K people?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited June 2023

    Good morning

    This story is not new, and while it may excite some political obsessives, it is what is happening to their own budgets with the continuing cost of living crisis plus this mortgage crisis that will really upset those on the Clapham Bus

    The conservatives will pay the price but the hard decisions Sunak and Hunt are taking will be passed over to Starmer who will face exactly the same insoluble problems which are likely to be ever present in his first administration

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are

    My party are back into the Happy Place of being able to sing appealing songs to voters. We won't be in government after the election, the policies will not become law, nobody need worry.

    They are simply protest notes proffered at blue wall Tories to stoke their anger. Like a Daily Mail front page about curries. Only less fascist.
    The problem with that line is that you become part of a propaganda “wall” that keeps the shit rolling.

    “All the politicians said….”

    This is why oppositions need to oppose.

    This stuff, like promoting NIMBYism, makes you a part of the problem.
    I entirely agree - it is blatant opportunism.
    And you correctly attack Johnson, but at the same time celebrate the lib dems playing politics with people's lives
    How are the LibDems doing that? What needs to happen to improve the lives of everyone is remove the Tories from office. Some voters still need a bit of an incentive, so something is proffered to influence them.

    Considering how hard you ramped the Daily Heil's Currygate thing, you can't really object to my lot doing its own piece of propagandising. Or was the Heil's attempt - cheered on by you - to keep the Tories in office not "playing politics with people's lives?"

    They need to go. Voters aren't stupid, they know the LibDems will be nowhere near office after the election. The Tories could be, yet their own economically illiterate policies apparently are ok for people to support because Starmer doesn't know what a woman is etc.
    Once you cut through your bluster @Malmesbury (8.28) has the correct response to you
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,575
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:

    Greetings from sunny Tallinn.

    A few comments, which I shared with a few friends yesterday.

    Needed explanations: "Vory", the thieves,- the current regime, VVP- Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin, EVP,- Evgeny Viktorovitch Prigrozhin.

    This was a sort of fake coup. The column may not have left Rostov but somebody shot down the helos and the SIGINT plane.

    1) a lot less to Wagner than conventional wisdom has believed. Prigrozhin is a sock puppet. This was not Putin v Prigrozhin, this was one part of the inner circle of the Vory attacking another using Prigrozhin as a proxy. Putin was forced to make a choice, but his delay nearly created a terminal crisis, and the inner circle of the Vory will take note. PM Mistushin is in trouble and obviously those who took discreet holidays in the last 48 hours. The meeting of the security council this week will include a major reshuffle of the government. What is wrong with VVP? He seems totally listless. I think the mooted meeting of the Security Council this week might even see an open challenge, and it is not certain that he can hang on. Could it be that he really is ill?

    Clearly the Vory are close to breaking themselves. Navalny might be on the plane to Moscow within a week at this rate.

    2) The real is that Shoigu and Gerasimov are now out. The “uprising” was over the moment that deal was done.

    Cui Bono? Surovikin and the FSB. Who loses? Draw your own conclusions, but a negative round for VVP.

    Reveals that the fake Union Presidency does have a purpose in the real world- reversion to a higher authority when the Vory are deadlocked. However Luko did not do the deal, The inner circle, possibly led by Patrushev, did.

    Some respect from the Vory, for bravery of EVP which is why, so far, they let him live, even though Prigrozhin was not inside the inner circle of the Vory, the code still covers him, and the inner circle realized that he (EVP) had dealt with too much in Bakhmut, had cracked and it was time to get him out.

    3) Ukraine needs more help to win this war, and Enerhodar is in terrible danger. Beijing may have lost Mistushin (it remains to be seen if he can stay in place, I´m guessing no), but Luko has really come good for them. I think China may be calling at least some of the shots here, which is a bit reassuring, since they have already spoken openly against any Russian nuclear options.

    The risks are indeed terrifying. As I understand it, the threat of NATO full on retaliation for any nuclear move includes radiological attacks (i.e. Enerhodar) as well as any use of n-weapons, but I think it would be well to convey this by any means possible. They question now is… to whom? Minister of Defence under house arrest, Chief of Defence Staff missing in action, President´s whereabouts unknown. Meanwhile 6 nuclear reactors are under the control of drunken morons who enjoy playing with matches.

    I certainly am praying.

    News from Lake Wobegon (Baltic Edition).
    Funny comment, but I suspect the analysis is as close to the truth as anything else we’ve seen. I said on Saturday there was a decent chance this was theatre, albeit it got out of control.

    And completely agree with Energodar. Russia has to be told very loudly that any accidents there will result in consequences.
    What consequences though?
    We should send you to Russia. That'd teach 'em. ;)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    Meanwhile, fascinating piece in the Guardian from John Harris.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/25/britain-crises-hopelessness-market-towns-suburbs

    He has done an awful lot of reporting from outside of Westminster over the decades, from almost everywhere. And he reports that exhaustion and political hopelessness has seeped into the shires and market towns in a way it hadn't done before.

    Fundamentally there is no way back for this government, and as their own sense of hopelessness sets in, watch for the schism that has wrecked the parliamentary Tory party have one final attempt to make a terrible situation worse.

    Having tried and failed to exorcise voters with "yebbut Starmer doesn't know what a woman is", the only defence is "he will do all the things we're doing but refuse to admit like an open door immigration policy" and "he's a bit crap and doesn't have all the answers".

    Which points to a big crash in turnout, which will hit Tories more than any other party, a Labour majority but in sane rather than silly territory, and hopefully a cross-party realisation that absolutism is the mess we are in and consensus facing into the Big Issues needs to happen.

    Interesting but not engaging. He notably avoids any suggestion about how to move forward out of the political hopelessness he identifies. So his article joins the long queue of similar ones startlingly short of options.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/26/hmrc-fined-184000-low-earners-for-not-filing-return-despite-no-tax-owing

    'HM Revenue and Customs handed out fines to 184,000 people paid less than £12,500 a year – the level under which people were then not subject to income tax – in the 2020-21 financial year (the latest for which full figures are available) for failing to complete a self-assessment tax form on time.

    Many of these people, already in severe financial difficulties, misunderstood the initial fine and were then subjected to further fines and interest. Some people were left facing fines of thousands of pounds, which would take them many years to pay.'

    I suppose they have to make up for all those IHT allowances to well-off Tory voters. But really? Almost 20K people?

    I wish I could fine them for their tardiness. It took them almost seven months to repay £5,000 they should *not* have taken from my father even I had drawn their attention to the matter with some vigour.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:

    Greetings from sunny Tallinn.

    A few comments, which I shared with a few friends yesterday.

    Needed explanations: "Vory", the thieves,- the current regime, VVP- Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin, EVP,- Evgeny Viktorovitch Prigrozhin.

    This was a sort of fake coup. The column may not have left Rostov but somebody shot down the helos and the SIGINT plane.

    1) a lot less to Wagner than conventional wisdom has believed. Prigrozhin is a sock puppet. This was not Putin v Prigrozhin, this was one part of the inner circle of the Vory attacking another using Prigrozhin as a proxy. Putin was forced to make a choice, but his delay nearly created a terminal crisis, and the inner circle of the Vory will take note. PM Mistushin is in trouble and obviously those who took discreet holidays in the last 48 hours. The meeting of the security council this week will include a major reshuffle of the government. What is wrong with VVP? He seems totally listless. I think the mooted meeting of the Security Council this week might even see an open challenge, and it is not certain that he can hang on. Could it be that he really is ill?

    Clearly the Vory are close to breaking themselves. Navalny might be on the plane to Moscow within a week at this rate.

    2) The real is that Shoigu and Gerasimov are now out. The “uprising” was over the moment that deal was done.

    Cui Bono? Surovikin and the FSB. Who loses? Draw your own conclusions, but a negative round for VVP.

    Reveals that the fake Union Presidency does have a purpose in the real world- reversion to a higher authority when the Vory are deadlocked. However Luko did not do the deal, The inner circle, possibly led by Patrushev, did.

    Some respect from the Vory, for bravery of EVP which is why, so far, they let him live, even though Prigrozhin was not inside the inner circle of the Vory, the code still covers him, and the inner circle realized that he (EVP) had dealt with too much in Bakhmut, had cracked and it was time to get him out.

    3) Ukraine needs more help to win this war, and Enerhodar is in terrible danger. Beijing may have lost Mistushin (it remains to be seen if he can stay in place, I´m guessing no), but Luko has really come good for them. I think China may be calling at least some of the shots here, which is a bit reassuring, since they have already spoken openly against any Russian nuclear options.

    The risks are indeed terrifying. As I understand it, the threat of NATO full on retaliation for any nuclear move includes radiological attacks (i.e. Enerhodar) as well as any use of n-weapons, but I think it would be well to convey this by any means possible. They question now is… to whom? Minister of Defence under house arrest, Chief of Defence Staff missing in action, President´s whereabouts unknown. Meanwhile 6 nuclear reactors are under the control of drunken morons who enjoy playing with matches.

    I certainly am praying.

    News from Lake Wobegon (Baltic Edition).
    Funny comment, but I suspect the analysis is as close to the truth as anything else we’ve seen. I said on Saturday there was a decent chance this was theatre, albeit it got out of control.

    And completely agree with Energodar. Russia has to be told very loudly that any accidents there will result in consequences.
    What consequences though?
    We should send you to Russia. That'd teach 'em. ;)
    Alternatively, invite Putin on a state visit here, and send him to Balmoral.

    With DA as his chauffeur...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Yet on the latest Yougov more 2019 Conservative voters now back Reform UK, 16%, than even the 15% who now back Labour.

    So if the Tories try and reject Johnson further they will just see further leakage to Farage and Tice's party
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2023/06/24/voting-intention-con-22-lab-47-20-21-jun-2023
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Nigelb said:

    For real ?

    Wagner Head Prigozhin’s Past Life as a Children’s Author and Illustrator
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/01/wagner-head-prigozhins-past-life-as-a-childrens-author-and-illustrator-a81358

    Some of his best work - https://youtu.be/A6-YPiqOh_w
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    algarkirk said:

    Meanwhile, fascinating piece in the Guardian from John Harris.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/25/britain-crises-hopelessness-market-towns-suburbs

    He has done an awful lot of reporting from outside of Westminster over the decades, from almost everywhere. And he reports that exhaustion and political hopelessness has seeped into the shires and market towns in a way it hadn't done before.

    Fundamentally there is no way back for this government, and as their own sense of hopelessness sets in, watch for the schism that has wrecked the parliamentary Tory party have one final attempt to make a terrible situation worse.

    Having tried and failed to exorcise voters with "yebbut Starmer doesn't know what a woman is", the only defence is "he will do all the things we're doing but refuse to admit like an open door immigration policy" and "he's a bit crap and doesn't have all the answers".

    Which points to a big crash in turnout, which will hit Tories more than any other party, a Labour majority but in sane rather than silly territory, and hopefully a cross-party realisation that absolutism is the mess we are in and consensus facing into the Big Issues needs to happen.

    Interesting but not engaging. He notably avoids any suggestion about how to move forward out of the political hopelessness he identifies. So his article joins the long queue of similar ones startlingly short of options.

    Sure - there are no obvious and simple options. Nor as a political observer is he supposed to be proposing any. Politically though he highlights something which will have a profound effect on the next election. Ignore it if you prefer, but it is there.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    Yet on the latest Yougov more 2019 Conservative voters now back Reform UK, 16%, than even the 15% who now back Labour.

    So if the Tories try and reject Johnson further they will just see further leakage to Farage and Tice's party
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2023/06/24/voting-intention-con-22-lab-47-20-21-jun-2023

    Your problem is that even if you win over all the Reform voters it won’t be enough.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900

    Scott_xP said:

    a Labour majority but in sane rather than silly territory, and hopefully a cross-party realisation that absolutism is the mess we are in and consensus facing into the Big Issues needs to happen.

    Start with Brexit...
    Brexit is Chimera's Wreck. People increasingly know its at best failed miserably and at worst been a disaster. And they certainly know that the siren songs from Johnson Farage and the right wing press were lies.

    The problem is that having been all in on the siren songs, any notes of it drifting through the air still catch their attention. Which is why Starmer very sensibly gives it a wide berth for now.

    Brexit is done. We aren't going to rejoin any time soon, and as people have been so gaslit as to believe the EEA is the EU or the CU is the EU, saying we would look to even align with either of them is a risk as well.

    We are where we are. What we can focus on instead is fixing the economy and finding ways to bring hope and pride and investment back to people's communities. Which will mean at least complete alignment with the EEA and CU. But focus on the future, not the past.
    Agree with this, but it doesn't mean that the hardcore europhobes and brexiteers should be let off the hook. They've harmed the country they claim to love, and few of them seem to take responsibility for it.

    (Having said that, there is still a chance that Brexit works out in the medium and long term. I wouldn't bet on it, though.)
    Brexit - leaving the EU - could work. BREXIT - the self-harm we have engaged in since we left the EU - is a disaster and needs to be reversed and done again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    It is also up to the House of Lords Appointments Commission to vet new Peers not the Monarch

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    tlg86 said:

    Off topic: A lot of people on here seem to think the TV series Succession is very good, so I watched the first two episodes last night. That's two hours of my life I won't get back. What a load of rubbish.

    Keep going - its fabulous. You're *supposed* to find them all disgusting. That's the whole point.
    Yes, I understand the concept and have read a lot on here and elsewhere about it.

    But the writing is terrible, and the acting is worse (I guess Americans don't know who Matthew Macfadyen is, so his appalling accent is perhaps not so grating). There is absolutely no depth to any of the characters and I've got better things to do with my life.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589

    Meanwhile, fascinating piece in the Guardian from John Harris.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/25/britain-crises-hopelessness-market-towns-suburbs

    He has done an awful lot of reporting from outside of Westminster over the decades, from almost everywhere. And he reports that exhaustion and political hopelessness has seeped into the shires and market towns in a way it hadn't done before.

    Fundamentally there is no way back for this government, and as their own sense of hopelessness sets in, watch for the schism that has wrecked the parliamentary Tory party have one final attempt to make a terrible situation worse.

    Having tried and failed to exorcise voters with "yebbut Starmer doesn't know what a woman is", the only defence is "he will do all the things we're doing but refuse to admit like an open door immigration policy" and "he's a bit crap and doesn't have all the answers".

    Which points to a big crash in turnout, which will hit Tories more than any other party, a Labour majority but in sane rather than silly territory, and hopefully a cross-party realisation that absolutism is the mess we are in and consensus facing into the Big Issues needs to happen.

    The only consensus is that someone else should pay the extra tax.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    HYUFD said:

    Yet on the latest Yougov more 2019 Conservative voters now back Reform UK, 16%, than even the 15% who now back Labour.

    So if the Tories try and reject Johnson further they will just see further leakage to Farage and Tice's party
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2023/06/24/voting-intention-con-22-lab-47-20-21-jun-2023

    It's over @HYUFD and Starmer is heading to no 10 irrespective of anything RefUK may or may not do
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited June 2023
    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/26/hmrc-fined-184000-low-earners-for-not-filing-return-despite-no-tax-owing

    'HM Revenue and Customs handed out fines to 184,000 people paid less than £12,500 a year – the level under which people were then not subject to income tax – in the 2020-21 financial year (the latest for which full figures are available) for failing to complete a self-assessment tax form on time.

    Many of these people, already in severe financial difficulties, misunderstood the initial fine and were then subjected to further fines and interest. Some people were left facing fines of thousands of pounds, which would take them many years to pay.'

    I suppose they have to make up for all those IHT allowances to well-off Tory voters. But really? Almost 20K people?

    The law is the law whatever you earn, if they failed to submit their self-assessment tax form by the deadline then they would be fined, as would anyone who failed to do so
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
    Yes, the Chinese car brands are starting to arrive where I am. Coming in at 2/3 of the price of Korean brands, close to half the price of the Japanese brands. The European brands are nowhere by comparison, except to be seen as luxury goods. It’s going to be a masssive shift, and electrification is going to accelerate that change.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    HYUFD said:

    Yet on the latest Yougov more 2019 Conservative voters now back Reform UK, 16%, than even the 15% who now back Labour.

    So if the Tories try and reject Johnson further they will just see further leakage to Farage and Tice's party
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2023/06/24/voting-intention-con-22-lab-47-20-21-jun-2023

    Do you think Con voters voted for Johnson based on culture warrior conservatism, or the break from austerity orthodoxy (or both)?

    The Faragist right wing have always been more willing to argue for spending money "for real British people" because a) they don't worry about getting into power and b) it allows them to argue that resources are currently misspent on the "other". Whilst "getting Brexit done" was important for those who voted Johnson I think his willingness to turn on the funding tap (or at least pay lip service to the idea) had more to do with his popularity - especially in the Red Wall. Sunak doing an Osbourne replay (and SKS joining in) leaves lots of those voters with feelings that neither of the big two support and the only alternative presented by the media, as always, is the populist right party.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Off topic: A lot of people on here seem to think the TV series Succession is very good, so I watched the first two episodes last night. That's two hours of my life I won't get back. What a load of rubbish.

    Keep going - its fabulous. You're *supposed* to find them all disgusting. That's the whole point.
    Yes, I understand the concept and have read a lot on here and elsewhere about it.

    But the writing is terrible, and the acting is worse (I guess Americans don't know who Matthew Macfadyen is, so his appalling accent is perhaps not so grating). There is absolutely no depth to any of the characters and I've got better things to do with my life.
    There is an ocean of depth to the characters. The cartoon sketch beginning doesn't last long. As for Mattskis accent, I think it works. Its dire, but then again his character is a dim chancer from a poorer background who thinks that grifting will make him mega rich. That he is convinced that he actually can do the jobs they give him just makes the "this is false" thing so good.

    I've only got to the end of season 2 so far. Still hoping that he pulls a Gaius Baltar and reveals his true accent in a moment of weakness...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    n

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are

    It's also Lib Dem policy to rejoin the Single Market which would provide an economic bounty that would make their 300 quid bung affordable. It's the tories that are inflicting wilful destitution on us for reasons of dogma and internal party management.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    Good morning

    This story is not new, and while it may excite some political obsessives, it is what is happening to their own budgets with the continuing cost of living crisis plus this mortgage crisis that will really upset those on the Clapham Bus

    The conservatives will pay the price but the hard decisions Sunak and Hunt are taking will be passed over to Starmer who will face exactly the same insoluble problems which are likely to be ever present in his first administration

    It seems that at least labour get it, but the lib dems have lost all economic sense with their idiotic £300 per month gift to mortgage holders confirming just how economically illiterate they are

    The LD offer of Nimbyism and bungs to mortgage holders in the bluewall will be fine as long as there isn't a hung parliament and they have to prop up a Starmer government. As their plan to scrap tuition fees in 2010 was fine until there was a hung parliament and they went into government with Cameron
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    A
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
    Yes, the Chinese car brands are starting to arrive where I am. Coming in at 2/3 of the price of Korean brands, close to half the price of the Japanese brands. The European brands are nowhere by comparison, except to be seen as luxury goods. It’s going to be a masssive shift, and electrification is going to accelerate that change.
    The sleep walking on electrification is astonishing.

    When I visited Hamburg a few weeks back, about a quarter of the taxis were Tesla Model 3.

    In Germany, the taxis *were* always big old Mercedes, off the conveyer belt of last years models being sold off Mercedes employees, buying a new one super cheap from their employer.

    To see a non German brand that deep into the market…
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Dura_Ace said:



    The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.

    Mercedes are an ancient and storied marque with incredible brand equity. Even if the products were broadly similar most punters would prefer a Merc over a BY-fucking-D and will pay a hefty premium for it over MG, BYD, etc. I could see technology co-operation (see Ford/GM on transmissions) but there isn't going to be a single premium car brand warehouse.

    I do think the groups with a plethora of brands (VAG, Stellantis) will have to rationalise in the same way that the US OEMs had to by shedding brands. Although VAG's strategy at the moment appears to be to create new brands (Rimac, Cupra).
    The proper nouns and acronyms I recognise in that post are “Mercedes”, “Ford”, “GM” and (possibly) “MG”. The rest could have been in code.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/26/hmrc-fined-184000-low-earners-for-not-filing-return-despite-no-tax-owing

    'HM Revenue and Customs handed out fines to 184,000 people paid less than £12,500 a year – the level under which people were then not subject to income tax – in the 2020-21 financial year (the latest for which full figures are available) for failing to complete a self-assessment tax form on time.

    Many of these people, already in severe financial difficulties, misunderstood the initial fine and were then subjected to further fines and interest. Some people were left facing fines of thousands of pounds, which would take them many years to pay.'

    I suppose they have to make up for all those IHT allowances to well-off Tory voters. But really? Almost 20K people?

    The law is the law whatever you earn, if they failed to submit their self-assessment tax form by the deadline then they would be fined, as would anyone who failed to do so
    I'm sure all this punishment gives you cheap thrills even at this time of the morning.

    But HMRC practice hitherto in general has been to ignore fines where there is no tax owing, or it has been overpaid. Indeed, in my experience it has been very difficult to get them to send tax return forms if they think things are correct fromk their estimates, but I know it is not correct.

    So this is quite a difference in practice, and very confusing indeed. .
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792

    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
    I don't really understand who is buying these cars, or even leasing them. I'm pretty comfortably off - not top 1%, certainly, but probably top 10% - and I'd never pay more than £20k for a car; and if it wasn't for me having three kids my maximum would be rather lower.

    I will grant you that a £50k car is a nicer place to be than a £20k car. But that's, what, £400 a month? I could do a lot with£400 a month that's more fun or memorable than sitting in a nice car.
    And I like driving. But driving on an empty winding road through pleasant scenery with agreeable music playing is only about 5% more enjoyable in a new £50k car than in a ten year old car worth less than £5k.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,581
    HYUFD said:

    Yet on the latest Yougov more 2019 Conservative voters now back Reform UK, 16%, than even the 15% who now back Labour.

    So if the Tories try and reject Johnson further they will just see further leakage to Farage and Tice's party
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2023/06/24/voting-intention-con-22-lab-47-20-21-jun-2023

    That's probably a good thing for the Tory party in the long run. I know it loses you the next election but you're going to lose it anyway.

    The party needs to be rid of the right wing Corbynistas in order to return to true Conservatism and attract back all the departed members and supporters.

    Sunak needs to do a Starmer, but he lacks the courage. Who will do it? My money is on Penny after the next election.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
    Yes, the Chinese car brands are starting to arrive where I am. Coming in at 2/3 of the price of Korean brands, close to half the price of the Japanese brands. The European brands are nowhere by comparison, except to be seen as luxury goods. It’s going to be a masssive shift, and electrification is going to accelerate that change.
    My Volvo S90 was chinese owned and built. My Tesla Model Y is American owned and chinese built. My brother's MG is chinese owned and built. The perception remains that China isn't luxury and won't be able to compete with western monoliths. This is wrong at a base level, and any of the big car company bosses surrounded by yes men saying that are in trouble.

    The other major issue is this: legacy car makers are cynical about EVs. They build EVs converted from their existing products (e.g. EQA from GLA), built in the same manner with a gazillion parts arranged in the way their factories are set up to build. So you get an overly-complex but poorly packaged EV which they then charge a large premium for. So many of the new Chinese brands are ground up EVs, built with far fewer parts (copying the Tesla revolution) and thus cheaper and more profitable whilst being better packaged.

    The old marques are in trouble.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    We are where we are. What we can focus on instead is fixing the economy and finding ways to bring hope and pride and investment back to people's communities. Which will mean at least complete alignment with the EEA and CU. But focus on the future, not the past.

    Nah

    We need truth and reconciliation first, other wise the fukwits that led us here will still have a voice in the debate.

    There is another article in The Times today by another Brexit devotee explaining why it's not his fault the magic beans he sold us have failed to produce the promised beanstalk.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Cookie said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
    I don't really understand who is buying these cars, or even leasing them. I'm pretty comfortably off - not top 1%, certainly, but probably top 10% - and I'd never pay more than £20k for a car; and if it wasn't for me having three kids my maximum would be rather lower.

    I will grant you that a £50k car is a nicer place to be than a £20k car. But that's, what, £400 a month? I could do a lot with£400 a month that's more fun or memorable than sitting in a nice car.
    And I like driving. But driving on an empty winding road through pleasant scenery with agreeable music playing is only about 5% more enjoyable in a new £50k car than in a ten year old car worth less than £5k.
    You're a rational being. But the economics of penis extensions is not rational (or rather the motivations it exposes are not).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
    Yes, the Chinese car brands are starting to arrive where I am. Coming in at 2/3 of the price of Korean brands, close to half the price of the Japanese brands. The European brands are nowhere by comparison, except to be seen as luxury goods. It’s going to be a masssive shift, and electrification is going to accelerate that change.
    My Volvo S90 was chinese owned and built. My Tesla Model Y is American owned and chinese built. My brother's MG is chinese owned and built. The perception remains that China isn't luxury and won't be able to compete with western monoliths. This is wrong at a base level, and any of the big car company bosses surrounded by yes men saying that are in trouble.

    The other major issue is this: legacy car makers are cynical about EVs. They build EVs converted from their existing products (e.g. EQA from GLA), built in the same manner with a gazillion parts arranged in the way their factories are set up to build. So you get an overly-complex but poorly packaged EV which they then charge a large premium for. So many of the new Chinese brands are ground up EVs, built with far fewer parts (copying the Tesla revolution) and thus cheaper and more profitable whilst being better packaged.

    The old marques are in trouble.
    One would think they'd never heard of Japanese cars in the 1970s, and Korean cars in the 1990s.

    As I've remarked before, I think, it won't be long before the UK car industry is concentrated near Malvern in Worcestershire.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    Cookie said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
    I don't really understand who is buying these cars, or even leasing them. I'm pretty comfortably off - not top 1%, certainly, but probably top 10% - and I'd never pay more than £20k for a car; and if it wasn't for me having three kids my maximum would be rather lower.

    I will grant you that a £50k car is a nicer place to be than a £20k car. But that's, what, £400 a month? I could do a lot with£400 a month that's more fun or memorable than sitting in a nice car.
    And I like driving. But driving on an empty winding road through pleasant scenery with agreeable music playing is only about 5% more enjoyable in a new £50k car than in a ten year old car worth less than £5k.
    I know I hustle £55k EVs on YouTube. But there is something deeply satisfying about driving the £2k 14 year old Hyundai I bought as a second car. Its a dinosaur, but its engaging because everything is so analogue. And as several panels are already pre-dented, I don't worry about it parked next to Other People as I do the Tesla.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Nigelb said:

    For real ?

    Wagner Head Prigozhin’s Past Life as a Children’s Author and Illustrator
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/01/wagner-head-prigozhins-past-life-as-a-childrens-author-and-illustrator-a81358

    Someone better check that Meghan Markle doesn’t control a private mercenary company. Children’s’ author and illustrator - tick. Public criticism of ruling elite she used to be part of - tick. “Exile” to country speaking a similar language - tick. Nobody knows what bombshell is coming next - tick.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    Scott_xP said:

    We are where we are. What we can focus on instead is fixing the economy and finding ways to bring hope and pride and investment back to people's communities. Which will mean at least complete alignment with the EEA and CU. But focus on the future, not the past.

    Nah

    We need truth and reconciliation first, other wise the fukwits that led us here will still have a voice in the debate.

    There is another article in The Times today by another Brexit devotee explaining why it's not his fault the magic beans he sold us have failed to produce the promised beanstalk.
    How much happier would you be if we now had the mass unemployment you predicted ?
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    Contrary to rumours spread yesterday by Russian pro-government Telegram channels and the Times newspaper, Russian defence minister Shaman Sergei Shoigu [*] remains in office and has been visiting troops on the front line.

    The Russian rumours that he'd fallen were probably to placate hardliners in Wagner.

    That guy is tough. Must be the Aztec sacrificial daggers and samurai swords. (Paging @Leon - do you think he's got non-homo sapiens DNA? Por-Bazhyn was an alien base, obv.)

    *) Count the letters.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    A

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
    Yes, the Chinese car brands are starting to arrive where I am. Coming in at 2/3 of the price of Korean brands, close to half the price of the Japanese brands. The European brands are nowhere by comparison, except to be seen as luxury goods. It’s going to be a masssive shift, and electrification is going to accelerate that change.
    My Volvo S90 was chinese owned and built. My Tesla Model Y is American owned and chinese built. My brother's MG is chinese owned and built. The perception remains that China isn't luxury and won't be able to compete with western monoliths. This is wrong at a base level, and any of the big car company bosses surrounded by yes men saying that are in trouble.

    The other major issue is this: legacy car makers are cynical about EVs. They build EVs converted from their existing products (e.g. EQA from GLA), built in the same manner with a gazillion parts arranged in the way their factories are set up to build. So you get an overly-complex but poorly packaged EV which they then charge a large premium for. So many of the new Chinese brands are ground up EVs, built with far fewer parts (copying the Tesla revolution) and thus cheaper and more profitable whilst being better packaged.

    The old marques are in trouble.
    An old friend who worked for Tata, for a while, said that being involved in the Tesla tear downs was fascinating. Not just for the insights into Tesla, but also into the ICE automotive mindset faced with EVs.

    He is an IT guy, but knows his electronics. He found the ICE trained engineers incredibly dismissive and not interested in electric power train engineering - “Battery and a motor, how hard can that be?”
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    A

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
    Yes, the Chinese car brands are starting to arrive where I am. Coming in at 2/3 of the price of Korean brands, close to half the price of the Japanese brands. The European brands are nowhere by comparison, except to be seen as luxury goods. It’s going to be a masssive shift, and electrification is going to accelerate that change.
    My Volvo S90 was chinese owned and built. My Tesla Model Y is American owned and chinese built. My brother's MG is chinese owned and built. The perception remains that China isn't luxury and won't be able to compete with western monoliths. This is wrong at a base level, and any of the big car company bosses surrounded by yes men saying that are in trouble.

    The other major issue is this: legacy car makers are cynical about EVs. They build EVs converted from their existing products (e.g. EQA from GLA), built in the same manner with a gazillion parts arranged in the way their factories are set up to build. So you get an overly-complex but poorly packaged EV which they then charge a large premium for. So many of the new Chinese brands are ground up EVs, built with far fewer parts (copying the Tesla revolution) and thus cheaper and more profitable whilst being better packaged.

    The old marques are in trouble.
    An old friend who worked for Tata, for a while, said that being involved in the Tesla tear downs was fascinating. Not just for the insights into Tesla, but also into the ICE automotive mindset faced with EVs.

    He is an IT guy, but knows his electronics. He found the ICE trained engineers incredibly dismissive and not interested in electric power train engineering - “Battery and a motor, how hard can that be?”
    Sounds like they only understood the positive bits.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890
    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.

    Mercedes are an ancient and storied marque with incredible brand equity. Even if the products were broadly similar most punters would prefer a Merc over a BY-fucking-D and will pay a hefty premium for it over MG, BYD, etc. I could see technology co-operation (see Ford/GM on transmissions) but there isn't going to be a single premium car brand warehouse.

    I do think the groups with a plethora of brands (VAG, Stellantis) will have to rationalise in the same way that the US OEMs had to by shedding brands. Although VAG's strategy at the moment appears to be to create new brands (Rimac, Cupra).
    The proper nouns and acronyms I recognise in that post are “Mercedes”, “Ford”, “GM” and (possibly) “MG”. The rest could have been in code.
    That, I think, was the point. What is puzzling about VAG (Volkswagen) and other established brands creating new ones is that surely this plays into the hands of their new Chinese competitors that no-one recognises either. I guess it started when mass market brands created their own premium marques such as Lexus. Although some established brands, such as MG, are all Chinese now anyway so who knows where I'm going with this?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    boulay said:

    Nigelb said:

    For real ?

    Wagner Head Prigozhin’s Past Life as a Children’s Author and Illustrator
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/01/wagner-head-prigozhins-past-life-as-a-childrens-author-and-illustrator-a81358

    Someone better check that Meghan Markle doesn’t control a private mercenary company. Children’s’ author and illustrator - tick. Public criticism of ruling elite she used to be part of - tick. “Exile” to country speaking a similar language - tick. Nobody knows what bombshell is coming next - tick.
    Did she used to run a catering business?
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited June 2023
    Selebian said:

    Update from Selby & Ainsty...

    I traded out my lay of Labour for a tiny profit a few days back.

    I'm in swing area and we've seen lots of Labour activity, but virtually nothing from Con (one postal 'survey' only). Was speaking to a Lab canvasser a few days ago - I promised my certain vote and got to chatting about prospects, they seemed genuinely to feel there was a good chance, could well be wrong, but I don't think they were just talking things up as they expressed surprise to be in with a shout. Veteran of a few campagins and said they didn't think they'd really have much chance when the by election was called.

    I'm not calling this for Lab as I still think it's a big ask. I've not backed Lab (and I don't think they're great value at odds this morning) but I have sold out of my anti-Lab position. My opinion has been changed as the Conservatives seem in disarray with few boots on the ground (not just in my area, also talking to those in others) and because the LDs, who could have bene potential spoilers splitting the anti-Tory vote, have ben completely invisible. There are still plenty of Tories here and the Tories could well win the seat, but apathy among Con voters and a fired up anti-Tory vote could swing it. I no longer have any confidence in calling it either way.

    Thanks.

    It takes guts to not have an opinion.

    More posts like this, please, pbers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    'Greek conservative leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis has trounced his centre-left rival in the second election in a month and said he has a "strong mandate" to move faster on the path of change.

    His New Democracy party (ND) won 40.5% of the national vote, almost 23 points ahead of Alexis Tsipras's Syriza party.

    He beat Syriza in May, but called new elections in a bid to win a majority.

    "ND is today the most powerful centre-right party in Europe," he told delighted supporters in Athens.'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65997486
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,421
    edited June 2023
    .
    Scott_xP said:

    We are where we are. What we can focus on instead is fixing the economy and finding ways to bring hope and pride and investment back to people's communities. Which will mean at least complete alignment with the EEA and CU. But focus on the future, not the past.

    Nah

    We need truth and reconciliation first, other wise the fukwits that led us here will still have a voice in the debate.

    There is another article in The Times today by another Brexit devotee explaining why it's not his fault the magic beans he sold us have failed to produce the promised beanstalk.
    You need to take a breath, fella. That hyperventilating will kill you. Sure, Brexit is a crock of shit, but it's happened. Johnson is done. Pursue the "fukwits" by all means, but we need to put the focus on all the other problems that your Tories have saddled us with. Yer man Cameron and his sidekick kicked it all off then ran away to spend time with their families millions, pursue those fuckers as well. Rejoining might be the best thing, but it's not happening anytime soon so quit whining and get with the programme
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:

    Greetings from sunny Tallinn.

    A few comments, which I shared with a few friends yesterday.

    Needed explanations: "Vory", the thieves,- the current regime, VVP- Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin, EVP,- Evgeny Viktorovitch Prigrozhin.

    This was a sort of fake coup. The column may not have left Rostov but somebody shot down the helos and the SIGINT plane.

    1) a lot less to Wagner than conventional wisdom has believed. Prigrozhin is a sock puppet. This was not Putin v Prigrozhin, this was one part of the inner circle of the Vory attacking another using Prigrozhin as a proxy. Putin was forced to make a choice, but his delay nearly created a terminal crisis, and the inner circle of the Vory will take note. PM Mistushin is in trouble and obviously those who took discreet holidays in the last 48 hours. The meeting of the security council this week will include a major reshuffle of the government. What is wrong with VVP? He seems totally listless. I think the mooted meeting of the Security Council this week might even see an open challenge, and it is not certain that he can hang on. Could it be that he really is ill?

    Clearly the Vory are close to breaking themselves. Navalny might be on the plane to Moscow within a week at this rate.

    2) The real is that Shoigu and Gerasimov are now out. The “uprising” was over the moment that deal was done.

    Cui Bono? Surovikin and the FSB. Who loses? Draw your own conclusions, but a negative round for VVP.

    Reveals that the fake Union Presidency does have a purpose in the real world- reversion to a higher authority when the Vory are deadlocked. However Luko did not do the deal, The inner circle, possibly led by Patrushev, did.

    Some respect from the Vory, for bravery of EVP which is why, so far, they let him live, even though Prigrozhin was not inside the inner circle of the Vory, the code still covers him, and the inner circle realized that he (EVP) had dealt with too much in Bakhmut, had cracked and it was time to get him out.

    3) Ukraine needs more help to win this war, and Enerhodar is in terrible danger. Beijing may have lost Mistushin (it remains to be seen if he can stay in place, I´m guessing no), but Luko has really come good for them. I think China may be calling at least some of the shots here, which is a bit reassuring, since they have already spoken openly against any Russian nuclear options.

    The risks are indeed terrifying. As I understand it, the threat of NATO full on retaliation for any nuclear move includes radiological attacks (i.e. Enerhodar) as well as any use of n-weapons, but I think it would be well to convey this by any means possible. They question now is… to whom? Minister of Defence under house arrest, Chief of Defence Staff missing in action, President´s whereabouts unknown. Meanwhile 6 nuclear reactors are under the control of drunken morons who enjoy playing with matches.

    I certainly am praying.

    News from Lake Wobegon (Baltic Edition).
    Funny comment, but I suspect the analysis is as close to the truth as anything else we’ve seen. I said on Saturday there was a decent chance this was theatre, albeit it got out of control.

    And completely agree with Energodar. Russia has to be told very loudly that any accidents there will result in consequences.
    What consequences though?
    Barty and a few others will tool up and start scouring easyjet flights to Kiev.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited June 2023
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet on the latest Yougov more 2019 Conservative voters now back Reform UK, 16%, than even the 15% who now back Labour.

    So if the Tories try and reject Johnson further they will just see further leakage to Farage and Tice's party
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2023/06/24/voting-intention-con-22-lab-47-20-21-jun-2023

    That's probably a good thing for the Tory party in the long run. I know it loses you the next election but you're going to lose it anyway.

    The party needs to be rid of the right wing Corbynistas in order to return to true Conservatism and attract back all the departed members and supporters.

    Sunak needs to do a Starmer, but he lacks the courage. Who will do it? My money is on Penny after the next election.
    Under FPTP it isn't. You need rightwingers in Opposition to form a strong opposition to a Labour government.

    Say what you like about Corbyn but he got 32% in 2017 and 39% in 2019, even if he turned off centrist swing voters he rallied the left behind him.

    Now Sunak's Tories are polling under 30% having lost much of the right to Reform UK as well as the centrist swing voters to Starmer Labour and the LDs.

    The idea the Tories are going to move even more to the centre if Sunak and Hunt lose is absurd, they will be seen as having lost precisely because they were too wet and centrist and the party will move further right in opposition to win back voters lost to Reform UK. Mordaunt is too woke for the members
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900

    A

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're going to read an awful lot about the terror now being felt in the hearts of millions who are on paper quite affluent. Nice house, daft car on the drive. But they are indebted up to the eyeballs, and the spikes in interest rates mean they could lose the lot.

    In reality many will not. But the realisation that they are not only sailing that close to disaster but also utterly powerless will be saluatory. Especially when they see the party they kept voting for not only doing nothing, but blaming THEM for the mess they are in. With a sneer.

    I think it will be worse than that. To the point of systemic effects. The car loans business could go sides ways in a big way, for example. And given how profitable it has been, guess who will have been investing in *that*, eh?

    The other big one is the commercial property sector - especially the scale of owning chunks of high streets. Under “proper management”, this is leveraged until the pips squeak. If you think housing costs are nuts, meet some shop keepers who will tell you about their rent increases.
    The new car business is totally screwed. Just as the pandemic supply chains get back to something approaching normal, there’s going to be a massive drop in demand from those who have become addicted to leasing a new car every three years when interest rates were on the floor. Add to the legislative changes that now push people towards electric cars, and you have a perfect storm of falling demand, especially for the luxury brands.
    I was looking at the Mercedes range yesterday to try and get my head around what their strategy is. There is no doubt that they see electrification as a great opportunity to premiumise - e.g. the EQA starts at £52k, the GLA it is the electric version of starts at £37k.

    This creates a gulf in the market which all of the new Chinese brands will happily step into. MG have already shown the way (and remember that MG is owned by the Chinese government via SIAC), others like BYD are coming.

    I've recorded a video for Tesla's 20th birthday next Saturday, speculating about how the car market will look on their 40th birthday. And my conclusion is that many of the brands we know today will have disappeared, out-maneuvered by Chinese companies who make the cars people want and can afford. The remaining premium brands will have consolidated and retreated into one big blog making only the top end. A Swatch group for cars if you like.
    Yes, the Chinese car brands are starting to arrive where I am. Coming in at 2/3 of the price of Korean brands, close to half the price of the Japanese brands. The European brands are nowhere by comparison, except to be seen as luxury goods. It’s going to be a masssive shift, and electrification is going to accelerate that change.
    My Volvo S90 was chinese owned and built. My Tesla Model Y is American owned and chinese built. My brother's MG is chinese owned and built. The perception remains that China isn't luxury and won't be able to compete with western monoliths. This is wrong at a base level, and any of the big car company bosses surrounded by yes men saying that are in trouble.

    The other major issue is this: legacy car makers are cynical about EVs. They build EVs converted from their existing products (e.g. EQA from GLA), built in the same manner with a gazillion parts arranged in the way their factories are set up to build. So you get an overly-complex but poorly packaged EV which they then charge a large premium for. So many of the new Chinese brands are ground up EVs, built with far fewer parts (copying the Tesla revolution) and thus cheaper and more profitable whilst being better packaged.

    The old marques are in trouble.
    An old friend who worked for Tata, for a while, said that being involved in the Tesla tear downs was fascinating. Not just for the insights into Tesla, but also into the ICE automotive mindset faced with EVs.

    He is an IT guy, but knows his electronics. He found the ICE trained engineers incredibly dismissive and not interested in electric power train engineering - “Battery and a motor, how hard can that be?”
    I went back to the founder's ethos when they started Tesla. A "car manufacturer which is also a technology company". Born out of frustration that a now long-dead company wasn't interested in scaling their new EV sportscar, Eberhard founded Tesla. And then with Elon Musk on board they set off licensing, refining, and then surpassing the AC Propulsion tech which inspired them.

    Now it isn't just that their motor and drivetrain package is leading edge, the way it is packaged and assembled is genuinely industry-changing. Everyone else was building mechanical cars the old way - lots of parts packaged to suit the way the engine needs to be stacked. Tesla's small packaging and now the gigacasting process means they can build a highly efficient (in both energy and space usage) powertrain and use minimal parts. Which means big profits. With new chinese manufacturers copying.
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