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Time to write off a Mid-Beds by-election? – politicalbetting.com

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  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    pigeon said:

    Never mind yesterday's fat oaf, the big news today is that Sunak has declined to offer more help to struggling mortgage payers. I mean, we'll see how long that position lasts as the pained screaming ramps up through the rest of this year and into the next, but for all of us who are desperately willing the vastly overinflated property bubble to burst in spectacular fashion it can't be anything but positive news.

    Great idea. repossessions, misery depression and suicide. What a nice person you must be.
    I'm always struck with how immense sympathy is afforded to mortgage payers in these circumstances, whereas no thought is given at all to the remaining 70% of the population.

    Falling prices are something to be celebrated for those who can't afford to buy full stop, or who are stuck in small properties with no prospect of being able to afford to trade upwards. Falling prices may upset pensioner homeowners, but at least ramping interest rates provides them with compensation in the form of higher interest on savings (which is also a serious boon for those about to retire and considering the purchase of annuities.)

    The market giveth and the market taketh away, There are always winners and losers - but, critically, there are probably more of the former than the latter to be found from a downward correction in property prices.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Back to the cricket ...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601

    Andy_JS said:

    Why the hell didn't England review that? Didn't it carry to Bairstow.

    No it bounced just short, but no mistake this time, Smith out now. ☝️
    Fantastic
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    I've missed most of the 'debate' due to parenting.

    Has there been a true tubthumping moment; a speech of pure, angry derision?

    Yes

    https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1670837935665561620

    and

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1670828872898576385
    Wonderful response by Harriet - game, set and match to her
    Concur.

    AND for your sake - and good of the order as we say in USA - glad there are a few Tory MPs standing tall today.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,121

    I've missed most of the 'debate' due to parenting.

    Has there been a true tubthumping moment; a speech of pure, angry derision?

    Yes

    https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1670837935665561620

    and

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1670828872898576385
    "I'm from Birmingham, and I say it as I see it."

    WTAF? ;)
    When it comes to Brummies they say it as they see it but the rest of the country cannot understand a word they say due to their accents.
    I'm not from Birmingham, but no-one ever understands what I say...
    What?
    It's not "what?", it's "pardon?". Honestly, some people... :smiley:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Heathener said:

    Redfield and Wilton 20% Labour lead just out is their biggest for 3 months

    Deltapoll just out have the Labour lead at 19%


    The mean Labour lead of the last 4 four national opinion polls is 19.25%


    Sunak is stronger? Really?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    33% still prefer Sunak to Starmer as PM on that Redfield poll though, 7% higher than the 26% Tory voteshare
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693
    Pulpstar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Breaking - AP (via Seattle Times) - Search underway for missing submersible that takes people to see Titanic

    A search is underway for a missing submersible that carries people to view the wreckage of the Titanic, according to media reports.

    The U.S. Coast Guard told BBC News that a search was underway Monday off the coast of Newfoundland. OceanGate Expeditions confirmed it owned the missing vessel.

    “We are exploring and mobilising all options to bring the crew back safely,” the company said in a statement to BBC News. “Our entire focus is on the crewmembers in the submersible and their families.”

    The U.S. Coast Guard in Boston did not immediately return messages sent by The Associated Press. However, the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre in Halifax, Nova Scotia, said a Canadian military aircraft and a Canadian Coast Guard vessel are assisting the search effort, which is being led by the U.S. Coast Guard.

    In 2021, OceanGate Expeditions began what it expected to become an annual voyage to chronicle the deterioration of the iconic ocean liner that struck an iceberg and sank in 1912.

    The company said at the time that in addition to archaeologists and marine biologists, the expeditions also would include roughly 40 paid tourists who would take turns operating sonar equipment and performing other tasks in the five-person submersible.

    The initial group of tourists was funding the expedition by spending anywhere from $100,000 to $150,000 apiece.

    This sad story is important. (I say 'sad', as I fear that it's not going to end well).

    There is a growing trend of people doing dangerous things, with the idea - or image - that they are safe. Whether it is going down to the Titanic as a tourist, or going to space, there are dangers that should not be ignored. After the Challenger disaster, NASA was rightly criticised because the risks of spaceflight had not been correctly passed onto astronauts. The same may well be sadly true of these private companies.
    I have no sympathy for posts beginning "I have no sympathy...", but the element of rich twattishness here needs to be recognised. Mass grave tourism is not attractive.
    Everest was an example I was going to mention; but the risks of that are fairly well acknowledged. And sadly, so many people have died going up Everest that it is now 'mass grave tourism'.
    The Challenger astronauts will have grown up knowing about the Apollo 1 disaster and would definitely have been aware that spaceflight as it was then and is now is risky.
    I suggest you read the Rogers Commission (Challenger report). Yes, they'd know there was a risk. In fact, studies were done, and the risk was put at between 1 chance in 1000 and 1 in 10,000 (1) or higher. In reality, they had 135 flights and 2 failures - despite the improvements post-Challenger. A ~1 in 67 failure rate.

    Which led to politicians and NASA putting poor Christa McAuliffe, a teacher, on Challenger.

    A later study found that the first nine shuttle flights had a 1 in 9 chance of catastrophic failure (2). The astronauts on board - even in STS 1, the first flight, had not been told it was anywhere near that risk. And STS-1 was very nearly a failure.

    It's not just a case of saying: "This is risky!"; intelligent people need to know the *degree* of risk.

    (1): https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-space-shuttle-a-case-of-subjective-engineering
    (2): https://www.npr.org/2011/03/04/134265291/early-space-shuttle-flights-riskier-than-estimated
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited June 2023
    Christine Jardine from the LibDems up next…

    “The final act in one of the most disreputable episodes we have witnessed in British politics for many years…”
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited June 2023
    It would be good psychologically for England if they could keep Australia under 100 tonight.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @BethRigby
    Think Sunak going to have an issue with privileges cttee vote if senior Tories like May support the motion as PM dodges. He promised govt of integrity, accountability and professionalism. Opponents will criticise if he avoids the vote. Watch KS call him weak at PMQs on Weds

    But it was so predictable.
    He should probably just call an election. Time to get rid of him, he’s not up to it.
    An early election would be a nice idea if we were really going to replace the government with something better. Unfortunately the alternative is Sir Kier Boredom and the loony Labour Public Sector Party ffs!
    Oh do stop it. You posted for years that Starmer was ok. Now you're reverting to tory story propaganda output because you finally have a non risible leader and there's an election coming.
    Nigel seems to be part of a cadre of posters who will allow themselves to complain occasionally about the Cons but will also vote for them regardless. Even economic malfeasance and outright corruption is unable to shake their votes.

    See also, BigG, DavidL and CasinoRoyale.

    They all seem to have formed their view of Labour in the 1980s or earlier, with the exception of CR who’s just an young fogey.
    I did vote for Blair twice and would have voted lib dem if Johnson had stayed in office

    I am not captured by Starmer like some , as he flip flops regularly

    Abolish tuition fees - not now

    Spend 28 billion pa on green issues - not now

    Stop all new oil and gas licences - not now

    Abolish all union legislation since 2016 - absolutely handing unprecedented power to the trade unions

    Accepts 1.6 million from stop oil but that is OK

    And as far as public sector wage demands are concerned then he will bow to his union masters

    The policy of abolishing of vat on school fees and non dom status is paltry to the sums needed and Starmer has not laid out how he is going to pay for his government either in borrowing or higher taxes, which by the way he has consistently condemned

    None of this means Starmer will not be the next PM but he is not entitled to a free pass


    Agree.

    But no right thinking person could vote to give the Tories another go, after the shambles and shame and corruption of the last few years.
    It depends if the alternative is worse and Sunak has 18 months at most to move on from Johnson

    It is an unbelievably high bar and I expect a majority Starmer government but again I am not giving him a free pass
    What would you 'giving him a free pass' look like btw? How would we spot it?
    In my posts
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,121

    Happy Juneteenth! US public holiday celebrating emancipation of slaves in Texas in June 1865 by Union Army, about two months after Lee's surrender to Grant at Appomattox CH.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_1807
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693
    IanB2 said:

    I've missed most of the 'debate' due to parenting.

    Has there been a true tubthumping moment; a speech of pure, angry derision?

    Yes

    https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1670837935665561620

    and

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1670828872898576385
    "I'm from Birmingham, and I say it as I see it."

    WTAF? ;)
    When it comes to Brummies they say it as they see it but the rest of the country cannot understand a word they say due to their accents.
    I'm not from Birmingham, but no-one ever understands what I say...
    Shouting stuff at people as you run past at some unnatural pace isn’t terribly conducive to understanding.
    I am not a fast runner, but thanks for overestimating my capability. :)

    I certainly don't run fast enough to redshift my speech. (*)

    (*) Can sound by redshifted?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    pigeon said:

    Never mind yesterday's fat oaf, the big news today is that Sunak has declined to offer more help to struggling mortgage payers. I mean, we'll see how long that position lasts as the pained screaming ramps up through the rest of this year and into the next, but for all of us who are desperately willing the vastly overinflated property bubble to burst in spectacular fashion it can't be anything but positive news.

    Providing 'support' for mortgage payers will simply accelerate inflation and keep interest rates higher for longer

    House prices might fall a little in nominal terms but there won't be a collapse, of course inflation enhances the real impact

    Property should be viewed as a home to live in, not an investment
    A former member of the Bank of England was interviewed on yesterday's Sophie on Sunday and provided one of the most sensible and informative responses to the present crisis and said that covid and Ukraine were the driving factor behind inflation, and in a much smaller way brexit, but that no government could risk bailing out mortgage holders as that would provide an immediate response from the markets in even higher interest rates

    Indeed Starmer refused to endorse bailing out mortgagees in this current climate
    This is correct.

    Although a more interesting question is why the brunt of inflation suppression should fall solely on mortgage holders.

    This is quite a different market than even twenty years ago. Interest rates only hit a certain, well-defined sector of the population.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited June 2023

    GIN1138 said:

    JRM's speech = piss and wind

    Fear you praise with faint damn.

    After all piss and wind are both valuable commodities when put to good (or even ill) use. SJRM?
    Curing jellyfish stings?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited June 2023
    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    It’s remarkable that some of these Tory dinosaurs think that picking over the legal minutiae is going to provide any sort of answer to this big picture scandal that any man or woman on the bus can already see.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Because she would not commit to stand down as an MP.
    Why would she need to? Peers automatically forfeit their seats in the Commons (exhibit A - Tony Benn).
    Although today, Viscount Stansgate would still remain an MP.
    Yes, but we're talking about being members of the Lords. You can't take a life peerage and stay in the Commons, surely?
    No, that's of course correct. But exhibit A - young Mr Benn - was for an hereditary peerage and since Blair's 'reform' in the late 1990s, these are no longer automatically members of the Lords.
    I know that. What I was saying was that becoming a member of the Lords automatically means you leave the commons. Even if you don't want it to (although in that case why accept a peerage)?

    Which was true until the removal of automatic hereditary peerages in the 1990s and is why Benn despite refusing to take his seat in the Lords still had his commons seat declared vacant and was not allowed to remain an MP even though he won the by-election with a 13,000 majority.
    What was interesting is that the Macmillan Government then introduced legislation to allow peers to renounce their titles within a certain period. This was intended to remedy the injustice to Tony Benn, but it also had the effect of then allowing both Home and Hailsham to do the same and thus become viable contenders for the Tory Leadership in November 1963. A law with unintended consequences....
    The irony being that Tony Benn's son and heir is now a hereditary Labour peer. Bob's yer uncle etc. etc.
    Home was a true Toff though, the 14th Earl of Home. Benn just had a father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being a Labour MP and Minister.

    Indeed not even the House of Lords has many genuine toffs left, most of them are just appointed Life Peers given most hereditary peers were removed in 1999
    Home a true toff? He just had a g-g-g --- ... father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being on the winning side of a minor civil war.
    Well if you go back far enough all Dukes were just loyal supporters of the King and Earls the most prominent supporters of William the Conqueror (replacing the old Saxon Earls)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    According to Paul Mason, there is a new conspiracy theory emanating from far-left / Corbynista circles: that Keir Starmer is a “spycop”: some kind of establishment or even CIA plant.

    Stuff like this, as well as the anti-Semitism and the pathetic response to Salisbury is why I disagree with posters who claim that Corbyn was somehow on a par or even a less malign option than Johnson in 2019.

    (Of course, I voted for neither).

    Thing is, you have an actual Johnson PM calamity against a mere hypothetical Corbyn PM one. And you have to weight an actual as greater than a hypothetical, all else being equal.
    No. Simply no. Boris' flaws were all too visible before he became PM. He did not change; he changed the party and removed many of the people against him. What makes you think that Corbyn would become a paragon of virtue and sanity if he had become PM? especially when as party leader he tried to change his party into his image.
    It doesn't matter what I think. We'll never know how he'd have been. Point is, it’s apples and pears. We have the stone cold objective fact of the Johnson PM calamity vs the purely hypothetical (and heavily subjective since it's a matter of opinion) Corbyn premiership. No contest. What would you rather have, real food poisoning or theoretical, 'matter of opinion' food poisoning?
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    IanB2 said:

    I've missed most of the 'debate' due to parenting.

    Has there been a true tubthumping moment; a speech of pure, angry derision?

    Yes

    https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1670837935665561620

    and

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1670828872898576385
    "I'm from Birmingham, and I say it as I see it."

    WTAF? ;)
    When it comes to Brummies they say it as they see it but the rest of the country cannot understand a word they say due to their accents.
    I'm not from Birmingham, but no-one ever understands what I say...
    Shouting stuff at people as you run past at some unnatural pace isn’t terribly conducive to understanding.
    I am not a fast runner, but thanks for overestimating my capability. :)

    I certainly don't run fast enough to redshift my speech. (*)

    (*) Can sound by redshifted?
    Yes, it's the Doppler effect.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Breaking - AP (via Seattle Times) - Search underway for missing submersible that takes people to see Titanic

    A search is underway for a missing submersible that carries people to view the wreckage of the Titanic, according to media reports.

    The U.S. Coast Guard told BBC News that a search was underway Monday off the coast of Newfoundland. OceanGate Expeditions confirmed it owned the missing vessel.

    “We are exploring and mobilising all options to bring the crew back safely,” the company said in a statement to BBC News. “Our entire focus is on the crewmembers in the submersible and their families.”

    The U.S. Coast Guard in Boston did not immediately return messages sent by The Associated Press. However, the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre in Halifax, Nova Scotia, said a Canadian military aircraft and a Canadian Coast Guard vessel are assisting the search effort, which is being led by the U.S. Coast Guard.

    In 2021, OceanGate Expeditions began what it expected to become an annual voyage to chronicle the deterioration of the iconic ocean liner that struck an iceberg and sank in 1912.

    The company said at the time that in addition to archaeologists and marine biologists, the expeditions also would include roughly 40 paid tourists who would take turns operating sonar equipment and performing other tasks in the five-person submersible.

    The initial group of tourists was funding the expedition by spending anywhere from $100,000 to $150,000 apiece.

    This sad story is important. (I say 'sad', as I fear that it's not going to end well).

    There is a growing trend of people doing dangerous things, with the idea - or image - that they are safe. Whether it is going down to the Titanic as a tourist, or going to space, there are dangers that should not be ignored. After the Challenger disaster, NASA was rightly criticised because the risks of spaceflight had not been correctly passed onto astronauts. The same may well be sadly true of these private companies.
    Virgin Galactic is a disaster waiting to happen.

    Blue Origins suborbital system is decently engineered, though the flight rate is strangely low.

    Soyuz has increasing quality problems.

    Dragon/F9 is tested to a reasonable extent.

    Orion will never fly enough to be properly tested

    Starliner has an ugly vibe of continuing issues

    Dreamchaser isn’t ready yet
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    IanB2 said:

    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    He's the oldest MP. Doesn't that deserve respect?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,450
    My plane from Cincinnati to LHR last night was full of 18-19 year old kids - fairly well off but not super rich - on some kind of school/college trip to London. For nearly all of them it was their first trip to Europe, for some the first trip abroad. I listened in to conversations

    What on earth will they make of London, Britain, Europe

    Particularly in London it will all seem so familiar at first - language - but then confoundingly strange. Overwhelming

    Plus they will be legally allowed to drink. Oops
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited June 2023

    pigeon said:

    Never mind yesterday's fat oaf, the big news today is that Sunak has declined to offer more help to struggling mortgage payers. I mean, we'll see how long that position lasts as the pained screaming ramps up through the rest of this year and into the next, but for all of us who are desperately willing the vastly overinflated property bubble to burst in spectacular fashion it can't be anything but positive news.

    Providing 'support' for mortgage payers will simply accelerate inflation and keep interest rates higher for longer

    House prices might fall a little in nominal terms but there won't be a collapse, of course inflation enhances the real impact

    Property should be viewed as a home to live in, not an investment
    A former member of the Bank of England was interviewed on yesterday's Sophie on Sunday and provided one of the most sensible and informative responses to the present crisis and said that covid and Ukraine were the driving factor behind inflation, and in a much smaller way brexit, but that no government could risk bailing out mortgage holders as that would provide an immediate response from the markets in even higher interest rates

    Indeed Starmer refused to endorse bailing out mortgagees in this current climate
    This is correct.

    Although a more interesting question is why the brunt of inflation suppression should fall solely on mortgage holders.

    This is quite a different market than even twenty years ago. Interest rates only hit a certain, well-defined sector of the population.
    Fair comment but not sure there is an alternative though the Bank of England should have started tightened long ago

    Interest rates have been too low for too long
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    He's the oldest MP. Doesn't that deserve respect?
    Respect by way of a blanket and cup of cocoa, perhaps. Just take no notice of anything he might be saying.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    He's the oldest MP. Doesn't that deserve respect?
    You have to earn respect.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited June 2023
    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    He's the oldest MP. Doesn't that deserve respect?
    Respect by way of a blanket and cup of cocoa, perhaps. Just take no notice of anything he might be saying.
    He is standing down, so last hurrah
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Sir Julian Lewis said he will vote for the Report, a surprise as he is a diehard Eurosceptic rightwinger
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    HYUFD said:

    Sir Julian Lewis said he will vote for the Report, a surprise as he is a diehard Eurosceptic rightwinger

    Good for him. Even Eurosceptics can have integrity.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Tory Julian Lewis challenges dinosaur Cash to divide the house, so that it will be made obvious what a minority view he has been expressing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    He's the oldest MP. Doesn't that deserve respect?
    Respect by way of a blanket and cup of cocoa, perhaps. Just take no notice of anything he might be saying.
    He is standing down, so last hurrah
    Sir Bill is 83, I doubt he cares what people think of him now.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Because she would not commit to stand down as an MP.
    Why would she need to? Peers automatically forfeit their seats in the Commons (exhibit A - Tony Benn).
    Although today, Viscount Stansgate would still remain an MP.
    Yes, but we're talking about being members of the Lords. You can't take a life peerage and stay in the Commons, surely?
    No, that's of course correct. But exhibit A - young Mr Benn - was for an hereditary peerage and since Blair's 'reform' in the late 1990s, these are no longer automatically members of the Lords.
    I know that. What I was saying was that becoming a member of the Lords automatically means you leave the commons. Even if you don't want it to (although in that case why accept a peerage)?

    Which was true until the removal of automatic hereditary peerages in the 1990s and is why Benn despite refusing to take his seat in the Lords still had his commons seat declared vacant and was not allowed to remain an MP even though he won the by-election with a 13,000 majority.
    What was interesting is that the Macmillan Government then introduced legislation to allow peers to renounce their titles within a certain period. This was intended to remedy the injustice to Tony Benn, but it also had the effect of then allowing both Home and Hailsham to do the same and thus become viable contenders for the Tory Leadership in November 1963. A law with unintended consequences....
    The irony being that Tony Benn's son and heir is now a hereditary Labour peer. Bob's yer uncle etc. etc.
    Home was a true Toff though, the 14th Earl of Home. Benn just had a father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being a Labour MP and Minister.

    Indeed not even the House of Lords has many genuine toffs left, most of them are just appointed Life Peers given most hereditary peers were removed in 1999
    Home a true toff? He just had a g-g-g --- ... father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being on the winning side of a minor civil war.
    Well if you go back far enough all Dukes were just loyal supporters of the King and Earls the most prominent supporters of William the Conqueror (replacing the old Saxon Earls)
    Murderous thugs, in other words.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    HYUFD said:

    Sir Julian Lewis said he will vote for the Report, a surprise as he is a diehard Eurosceptic rightwinger

    No surprise, Boris Johnson stripped Lewis of the whip in a fit of pique.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Because she would not commit to stand down as an MP.
    Why would she need to? Peers automatically forfeit their seats in the Commons (exhibit A - Tony Benn).
    Although today, Viscount Stansgate would still remain an MP.
    Yes, but we're talking about being members of the Lords. You can't take a life peerage and stay in the Commons, surely?
    No, that's of course correct. But exhibit A - young Mr Benn - was for an hereditary peerage and since Blair's 'reform' in the late 1990s, these are no longer automatically members of the Lords.
    I know that. What I was saying was that becoming a member of the Lords automatically means you leave the commons. Even if you don't want it to (although in that case why accept a peerage)?

    Which was true until the removal of automatic hereditary peerages in the 1990s and is why Benn despite refusing to take his seat in the Lords still had his commons seat declared vacant and was not allowed to remain an MP even though he won the by-election with a 13,000 majority.
    What was interesting is that the Macmillan Government then introduced legislation to allow peers to renounce their titles within a certain period. This was intended to remedy the injustice to Tony Benn, but it also had the effect of then allowing both Home and Hailsham to do the same and thus become viable contenders for the Tory Leadership in November 1963. A law with unintended consequences....
    The irony being that Tony Benn's son and heir is now a hereditary Labour peer. Bob's yer uncle etc. etc.
    Home was a true Toff though, the 14th Earl of Home. Benn just had a father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being a Labour MP and Minister.

    Indeed not even the House of Lords has many genuine toffs left, most of them are just appointed Life Peers given most hereditary peers were removed in 1999
    Home a true toff? He just had a g-g-g --- ... father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being on the winning side of a minor civil war.
    Well if you go back far enough all Dukes were just loyal supporters of the King and Earls the most prominent supporters of William the Conqueror (replacing the old Saxon Earls)
    Murderous thugs, in other words.
    Like William Wallace you mean?

    Unless you were a Bishop or Abbott or a Lawyer most of the elite were in those days
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    He's the oldest MP. Doesn't that deserve respect?
    Respect by way of a blanket and cup of cocoa, perhaps. Just take no notice of anything he might be saying.
    He is standing down, so last hurrah
    Sir Bill is 83, I doubt he cares what people think of him now.
    On the contrary. You clearly don’t know too many people at the end of their careers.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    He's the oldest MP. Doesn't that deserve respect?
    Respect by way of a blanket and cup of cocoa, perhaps. Just take no notice of anything he might be saying.
    He is standing down, so last hurrah
    Sir Bill is 83, I doubt he cares what people think of him now.
    You are never too old to stand up for honestly, integrity and decency rather than try to deflect and excuse malign behaviour
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    HYUFD said:

    Sir Julian Lewis said he will vote for the Report, a surprise as he is a diehard Eurosceptic rightwinger

    Good for him. Even Eurosceptics can have integrity.
    Only on a topic where no-one has mentioned the EU, obvs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693

    Breaking - AP (via Seattle Times) - Search underway for missing submersible that takes people to see Titanic

    A search is underway for a missing submersible that carries people to view the wreckage of the Titanic, according to media reports.

    The U.S. Coast Guard told BBC News that a search was underway Monday off the coast of Newfoundland. OceanGate Expeditions confirmed it owned the missing vessel.

    “We are exploring and mobilising all options to bring the crew back safely,” the company said in a statement to BBC News. “Our entire focus is on the crewmembers in the submersible and their families.”

    The U.S. Coast Guard in Boston did not immediately return messages sent by The Associated Press. However, the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre in Halifax, Nova Scotia, said a Canadian military aircraft and a Canadian Coast Guard vessel are assisting the search effort, which is being led by the U.S. Coast Guard.

    In 2021, OceanGate Expeditions began what it expected to become an annual voyage to chronicle the deterioration of the iconic ocean liner that struck an iceberg and sank in 1912.

    The company said at the time that in addition to archaeologists and marine biologists, the expeditions also would include roughly 40 paid tourists who would take turns operating sonar equipment and performing other tasks in the five-person submersible.

    The initial group of tourists was funding the expedition by spending anywhere from $100,000 to $150,000 apiece.

    This sad story is important. (I say 'sad', as I fear that it's not going to end well).

    There is a growing trend of people doing dangerous things, with the idea - or image - that they are safe. Whether it is going down to the Titanic as a tourist, or going to space, there are dangers that should not be ignored. After the Challenger disaster, NASA was rightly criticised because the risks of spaceflight had not been correctly passed onto astronauts. The same may well be sadly true of these private companies.
    Virgin Galactic is a disaster waiting to happen.

    Blue Origins suborbital system is decently engineered, though the flight rate is strangely low.

    Soyuz has increasing quality problems.

    Dragon/F9 is tested to a reasonable extent.

    Orion will never fly enough to be properly tested

    Starliner has an ugly vibe of continuing issues

    Dreamchaser isn’t ready yet
    That's all fair.

    I'd also add that the Chinese Shenzhou system has had about 15 flights, mostly crewed, with no failures.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    Miklosvar said:

    IanB2 said:

    I've missed most of the 'debate' due to parenting.

    Has there been a true tubthumping moment; a speech of pure, angry derision?

    Yes

    https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1670837935665561620

    and

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1670828872898576385
    "I'm from Birmingham, and I say it as I see it."

    WTAF? ;)
    When it comes to Brummies they say it as they see it but the rest of the country cannot understand a word they say due to their accents.
    I'm not from Birmingham, but no-one ever understands what I say...
    Shouting stuff at people as you run past at some unnatural pace isn’t terribly conducive to understanding.
    I am not a fast runner, but thanks for overestimating my capability. :)

    I certainly don't run fast enough to redshift my speech. (*)

    (*) Can sound by redshifted?
    Yes, it's the Doppler effect.
    The classic example is the whistle on a passing railway train.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgMxtT_jYf0
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    edited June 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Because she would not commit to stand down as an MP.
    Why would she need to? Peers automatically forfeit their seats in the Commons (exhibit A - Tony Benn).
    Although today, Viscount Stansgate would still remain an MP.
    Yes, but we're talking about being members of the Lords. You can't take a life peerage and stay in the Commons, surely?
    No, that's of course correct. But exhibit A - young Mr Benn - was for an hereditary peerage and since Blair's 'reform' in the late 1990s, these are no longer automatically members of the Lords.
    I know that. What I was saying was that becoming a member of the Lords automatically means you leave the commons. Even if you don't want it to (although in that case why accept a peerage)?

    Which was true until the removal of automatic hereditary peerages in the 1990s and is why Benn despite refusing to take his seat in the Lords still had his commons seat declared vacant and was not allowed to remain an MP even though he won the by-election with a 13,000 majority.
    What was interesting is that the Macmillan Government then introduced legislation to allow peers to renounce their titles within a certain period. This was intended to remedy the injustice to Tony Benn, but it also had the effect of then allowing both Home and Hailsham to do the same and thus become viable contenders for the Tory Leadership in November 1963. A law with unintended consequences....
    The irony being that Tony Benn's son and heir is now a hereditary Labour peer. Bob's yer uncle etc. etc.
    Home was a true Toff though, the 14th Earl of Home. Benn just had a father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being a Labour MP and Minister.

    Indeed not even the House of Lords has many genuine toffs left, most of them are just appointed Life Peers given most hereditary peers were removed in 1999
    Home a true toff? He just had a g-g-g --- ... father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being on the winning side of a minor civil war.
    Well if you go back far enough all Dukes were just loyal supporters of the King and Earls the most prominent supporters of William the Conqueror (replacing the old Saxon Earls)
    Murderous thugs, in other words.
    Like William Wallace you mean?

    Unless you were a Bishop or Abbott or a Lawyer most of the elite were in those days
    Wallace? Only because a bunch of thugs invaded Scotland. And as for your second point, "waah! waah! Everyone else in the playground was doing it!" doesn't make a psychopath into your concept of a toff.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Because she would not commit to stand down as an MP.
    Why would she need to? Peers automatically forfeit their seats in the Commons (exhibit A - Tony Benn).
    Although today, Viscount Stansgate would still remain an MP.
    Yes, but we're talking about being members of the Lords. You can't take a life peerage and stay in the Commons, surely?
    No, that's of course correct. But exhibit A - young Mr Benn - was for an hereditary peerage and since Blair's 'reform' in the late 1990s, these are no longer automatically members of the Lords.
    I know that. What I was saying was that becoming a member of the Lords automatically means you leave the commons. Even if you don't want it to (although in that case why accept a peerage)?

    Which was true until the removal of automatic hereditary peerages in the 1990s and is why Benn despite refusing to take his seat in the Lords still had his commons seat declared vacant and was not allowed to remain an MP even though he won the by-election with a 13,000 majority.
    What was interesting is that the Macmillan Government then introduced legislation to allow peers to renounce their titles within a certain period. This was intended to remedy the injustice to Tony Benn, but it also had the effect of then allowing both Home and Hailsham to do the same and thus become viable contenders for the Tory Leadership in November 1963. A law with unintended consequences....
    The irony being that Tony Benn's son and heir is now a hereditary Labour peer. Bob's yer uncle etc. etc.
    Home was a true Toff though, the 14th Earl of Home. Benn just had a father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being a Labour MP and Minister.

    Indeed not even the House of Lords has many genuine toffs left, most of them are just appointed Life Peers given most hereditary peers were removed in 1999
    Home a true toff? He just had a g-g-g --- ... father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being on the winning side of a minor civil war.
    Well if you go back far enough all Dukes were just loyal supporters of the King and Earls the most prominent supporters of William the Conqueror (replacing the old Saxon Earls)
    Murderous thugs, in other words.
    Like William Wallace you mean?

    Unless you were a Bishop or Abbott or a Lawyer most of the elite were in those days
    Wallace? Only because a bunch of thugs invaded Scotland.
    Tried to liberate Scotland.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Another good day at the cricket. England just ahead.

    Result will be marginal ranging from an ENG win by no more than 50 runs to an AUS win by no more than 3 wickets.

    Boland has done well tonight.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited June 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Sir Julian Lewis said he will vote for the Report, a surprise as he is a diehard Eurosceptic rightwinger

    Not a surprise.
    Some were/are Eurosceptic because they want to protect British parliamentary democracy and rule of law from the EU.

    Sadly, not enough. And those Brexiters who made it into government, perhaps with exceptions like Steve Baker, simply wanted to engross power to themselves.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Because she would not commit to stand down as an MP.
    Why would she need to? Peers automatically forfeit their seats in the Commons (exhibit A - Tony Benn).
    Although today, Viscount Stansgate would still remain an MP.
    Yes, but we're talking about being members of the Lords. You can't take a life peerage and stay in the Commons, surely?
    No, that's of course correct. But exhibit A - young Mr Benn - was for an hereditary peerage and since Blair's 'reform' in the late 1990s, these are no longer automatically members of the Lords.
    I know that. What I was saying was that becoming a member of the Lords automatically means you leave the commons. Even if you don't want it to (although in that case why accept a peerage)?

    Which was true until the removal of automatic hereditary peerages in the 1990s and is why Benn despite refusing to take his seat in the Lords still had his commons seat declared vacant and was not allowed to remain an MP even though he won the by-election with a 13,000 majority.
    What was interesting is that the Macmillan Government then introduced legislation to allow peers to renounce their titles within a certain period. This was intended to remedy the injustice to Tony Benn, but it also had the effect of then allowing both Home and Hailsham to do the same and thus become viable contenders for the Tory Leadership in November 1963. A law with unintended consequences....
    The irony being that Tony Benn's son and heir is now a hereditary Labour peer. Bob's yer uncle etc. etc.
    Home was a true Toff though, the 14th Earl of Home. Benn just had a father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being a Labour MP and Minister.

    Indeed not even the House of Lords has many genuine toffs left, most of them are just appointed Life Peers given most hereditary peers were removed in 1999
    Home a true toff? He just had a g-g-g --- ... father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being on the winning side of a minor civil war.
    Well if you go back far enough all Dukes were just loyal supporters of the King and Earls the most prominent supporters of William the Conqueror (replacing the old Saxon Earls)
    Murderous thugs, in other words.
    Like William Wallace you mean?

    Unless you were a Bishop or Abbott or a Lawyer most of the elite were in those days
    Wallace? Only because a bunch of thugs invaded Scotland.
    Wallace also sacked towns and cities across the North of England
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    IanB2 said:

    Tory Julian Lewis challenges dinosaur Cash to divide the house, so that it will be made obvious what a minority view he has been expressing.

    I heard Starmer, who by the way is also absent, say there will be a division

    Unless a conservative shouts no then as I understand it a no from anyone who is voting yes will be judged contempt of parliament by the speaker

    Has anyone else heard of this technicality ?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited June 2023

    Another good day at the cricket. England just ahead.

    Result will be marginal ranging from an ENG win by no more than 50 runs to an AUS win by no more than 3 wickets.

    Boland has done well tonight.

    Hopefully, we’ll have a wearing pitch and plenty of cloud cover tomorrow.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601

    Another good day at the cricket. England just ahead.

    Result will be marginal ranging from an ENG win by no more than 50 runs to an AUS win by no more than 3 wickets.

    Boland has done well tonight.

    Let's hope the weather doesn't ruin it. Showers are possible for most of the day tomorrow.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    What a little man Sunak is in every sense of the word.

    And doesn't he look it as he's chased by the news cameras.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693
    Roger said:

    What a little man Sunak is in every sense of the word.

    And doesn't he look it as he's chased by the news cameras.

    Takes one to know one.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    RESPECT LOL.

    Sir Bill Cash tells the Commons: “Those who say the dogs bark and the caravan moves on miss the wood for the trees. The caravan of this House, having moved on, will certainly come back, and then the dogs will not only merely bark, but they will bite.”

    Me neither.


    https://twitter.com/BenKentish/status/1670855828050526208
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    edited June 2023
    I see "Sir" JRM has compared the Committee to Communist China.
    Pity it isn't.
    I can think of one or two who would benefit from 10 years hard graft on a collective farm.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    Nick Fletcher is a snivelling little toad.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,121
    Carnyx said:

    Miklosvar said:

    IanB2 said:

    I've missed most of the 'debate' due to parenting.

    Has there been a true tubthumping moment; a speech of pure, angry derision?

    Yes

    https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1670837935665561620

    and

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1670828872898576385
    "I'm from Birmingham, and I say it as I see it."

    WTAF? ;)
    When it comes to Brummies they say it as they see it but the rest of the country cannot understand a word they say due to their accents.
    I'm not from Birmingham, but no-one ever understands what I say...
    Shouting stuff at people as you run past at some unnatural pace isn’t terribly conducive to understanding.
    I am not a fast runner, but thanks for overestimating my capability. :)

    I certainly don't run fast enough to redshift my speech. (*)

    (*) Can sound by redshifted?
    Yes, it's the Doppler effect.
    The classic example is the whistle on a passing railway train.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgMxtT_jYf0
    Fast cars driving past

    Meeeeeeeeeee-yowwwwwwww.
    Meeeeeeeeeee-yowwwwwwww.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    He's the oldest MP. Doesn't that deserve respect?
    Respect by way of a blanket and cup of cocoa, perhaps. Just take no notice of anything he might be saying.
    He is standing down, so last hurrah
    Sir Bill is 83, I doubt he cares what people think of him now.
    You are never too old to stand up for honestly, integrity and decency rather than try to deflect and excuse malign behaviour
    It's the dilemma facing all Conservative politicians in the twilights of their careers- not just the Cash generation, but also the Gove/Hunt generation.

    What do they want their obituary to say? They can't unwrite the bit about helping a charlatan rise to power. Many of them appear to be fluffing the chance to say "when I realised how bad he was, I did the right thing".

    There might be different reasons for that. Fear of the constituency members or the rabid press. Fear that Johnson will somehow come back and have his revenge. Maybe even a reluctance to admit quite how much the great liar lied to them personally, and how they didn't spot it until it was much too late.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @BethRigby
    Think Sunak going to have an issue with privileges cttee vote if senior Tories like May support the motion as PM dodges. He promised govt of integrity, accountability and professionalism. Opponents will criticise if he avoids the vote. Watch KS call him weak at PMQs on Weds

    But it was so predictable.
    He should probably just call an election. Time to get rid of him, he’s not up to it.
    An early election would be a nice idea if we were really going to replace the government with something better. Unfortunately the alternative is Sir Kier Boredom and the loony Labour Public Sector Party ffs!
    Oh do stop it. You posted for years that Starmer was ok. Now you're reverting to tory story propaganda output because you finally have a non risible leader and there's an election coming.
    Nigel seems to be part of a cadre of posters who will allow themselves to complain occasionally about the Cons but will also vote for them regardless. Even economic malfeasance and outright corruption is unable to shake their votes.

    See also, BigG, DavidL and CasinoRoyale.

    They all seem to have formed their view of Labour in the 1980s or earlier, with the exception of CR who’s just an young fogey.


    And as far as public sector wage demands are concerned then he will bow to his union masters



    You haven’t the faintest idea about public sector pay.

    In my ALB, I have a colleague, stuck at the top of an immobile payscale, who earns less net now than she did in 2012. Because of increased pension/NI contributions. Other colleagues are now regular foodbank users. This can’t be right. We have no progression, no increments, and towards the top of scales, no increases, inflationary or otherwise.

    We are struggling to recruit to specialist roles because pay has fallen so far behind the third sector, never mind the private sector.

    You are happy to take your triple locked pension whilst taking pops at public sector pay arrangements you clearly don’t understand.

    As was observed on here, how can it be right for non-workers to be rewarded whilst workers are told there’s no money.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Andy_JS said:

    Another good day at the cricket. England just ahead.

    Result will be marginal ranging from an ENG win by no more than 50 runs to an AUS win by no more than 3 wickets.

    Boland has done well tonight.

    Let's hope the weather doesn't ruin it. Showers are possible for most of the day tomorrow.
    OTOH it could liven it up.
    Freshen up the pitch.
    Bring in an extra layer of jeopardy.
    As well as the other two results into play.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675

    Nick Fletcher is a snivelling little toad.

    Wants only Tory MPs to judge Tory MPs, Labour MPs to judge Labour MPs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    He's the oldest MP. Doesn't that deserve respect?
    You have to earn respect.
    You certainly can't pay cash for it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693
    Miklosvar said:

    IanB2 said:

    I've missed most of the 'debate' due to parenting.

    Has there been a true tubthumping moment; a speech of pure, angry derision?

    Yes

    https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1670837935665561620

    and

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1670828872898576385
    "I'm from Birmingham, and I say it as I see it."

    WTAF? ;)
    When it comes to Brummies they say it as they see it but the rest of the country cannot understand a word they say due to their accents.
    I'm not from Birmingham, but no-one ever understands what I say...
    Shouting stuff at people as you run past at some unnatural pace isn’t terribly conducive to understanding.
    I am not a fast runner, but thanks for overestimating my capability. :)

    I certainly don't run fast enough to redshift my speech. (*)

    (*) Can sound by redshifted?
    Yes, it's the Doppler effect.
    Yep, that was stupid of me. Thanks.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,492

    RESPECT LOL.

    Sir Bill Cash tells the Commons: “Those who say the dogs bark and the caravan moves on miss the wood for the trees. The caravan of this House, having moved on, will certainly come back, and then the dogs will not only merely bark, but they will bite.”

    Me neither.


    https://twitter.com/BenKentish/status/1670855828050526208

    I’m sure that’s one of Brad Pitt’s lines from Snatch when his caravan gets burnt down, I hope Cash pronounced it “dags”.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761

    You haven’t the faintest idea

    Could have stopped here
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    RESPECT LOL.

    Sir Bill Cash tells the Commons: “Those who say the dogs bark and the caravan moves on miss the wood for the trees. The caravan of this House, having moved on, will certainly come back, and then the dogs will not only merely bark, but they will bite.”

    Me neither.


    https://twitter.com/BenKentish/status/1670855828050526208

    Not so much cash as American Express.

    Idolised in certain quarters but nobody else likes them or can see the point.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sir Julian Lewis said he will vote for the Report, a surprise as he is a diehard Eurosceptic rightwinger

    By sanctioning Boris, Parliament is asserting it's sovereignty... Leave MPs in particular should be voting to support the Privileges committee and our sovereign Parliament.
    Did you spot Mrs May making that point, ironically, during her speech? A barb aimed at the clown’s heart that fellow MPs certainly spotted.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,450
    Actually I know what those Cincy kids will think when they first hit London

    “How come everyone is thin”

    (Not true of the Uk as a whole or course but definitely true of the Smoke)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    ydoethur said:

    RESPECT LOL.

    Sir Bill Cash tells the Commons: “Those who say the dogs bark and the caravan moves on miss the wood for the trees. The caravan of this House, having moved on, will certainly come back, and then the dogs will not only merely bark, but they will bite.”

    Me neither.


    https://twitter.com/BenKentish/status/1670855828050526208

    Not so much cash as American Express.

    Idolised in certain quarters but nobody else likes them or can see the point.
    I love my AMEX, the benefits you got with the Centurion Charge Card is worth the annual fee.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    RESPECT LOL.

    Sir Bill Cash tells the Commons: “Those who say the dogs bark and the caravan moves on miss the wood for the trees. The caravan of this House, having moved on, will certainly come back, and then the dogs will not only merely bark, but they will bite.”

    Me neither.


    https://twitter.com/BenKentish/status/1670855828050526208

    Not so much cash as American Express.

    Idolised in certain quarters but nobody else likes them or can see the point.
    I love my AMEX, the benefits you got with the Centurion Charge Card is worth the annual fee.
    But you never liked cash anyway...
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761

    ydoethur said:

    RESPECT LOL.

    Sir Bill Cash tells the Commons: “Those who say the dogs bark and the caravan moves on miss the wood for the trees. The caravan of this House, having moved on, will certainly come back, and then the dogs will not only merely bark, but they will bite.”

    Me neither.


    https://twitter.com/BenKentish/status/1670855828050526208

    Not so much cash as American Express.

    Idolised in certain quarters but nobody else likes them or can see the point.
    I love my AMEX, the benefits you got with the Centurion Charge Card is worth the annual fee.
    What benefits do you get
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    I wonder if I hold the record for the most bannings
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Leon said:

    Actually I know what those Cincy kids will think when they first hit London

    “How come everyone is thin”

    (Not true of the Uk as a whole or course but definitely true of the Smoke)

    Wartime rationing is still going strong….
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    dixiedean said:

    I see "Sir" JRM has compared the Committee to Communist China.
    Pity it isn't.
    I can think of one or two who would benefit from 10 years hard graft on a collective farm.

    You could probably drop the 're' in re-education for some of them. Dame Andrea Littlefinger Jenkyns springs to mind..
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693
    I'd vote in favour of this report, with a few minor reservations.

    But if Johnson gets censured to this degree about this, how did Blair remain in power for years after his lies over Iraq - something that had much greater effect on the country?
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761

    I'd vote in favour of this report, with a few minor reservations.

    But if Johnson gets censured to this degree about this, how did Blair remain in power for years after his lies over Iraq - something that had much greater effect on the country?

    The award for whatabout of the day goes to
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    6K in tonight in the relative heat, shins behaving
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,492
    ydoethur said:

    RESPECT LOL.

    Sir Bill Cash tells the Commons: “Those who say the dogs bark and the caravan moves on miss the wood for the trees. The caravan of this House, having moved on, will certainly come back, and then the dogs will not only merely bark, but they will bite.”

    Me neither.


    https://twitter.com/BenKentish/status/1670855828050526208

    Not so much cash as American Express.

    Idolised in certain quarters but nobody else likes them or can see the point.
    Suddenly Anabob’s desire for a Cashless society is looking great.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693
    Where is Sunak? The optics of his Brave Sir Robin are terrible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now chief tit Bill Cash….

    He's the oldest MP. Doesn't that deserve respect?
    What a bizarre notion.

    And even if it were so, what does respecting someone for being the oldest MP mean in this context? Given you've raised it in response to someone calling him a mean name, am I to gather that by 'respect' you mean 'immunity from mockery'?

    A very snowflakey attiude, I'd have thought Sir William would not be in favour of that.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Because she would not commit to stand down as an MP.
    Why would she need to? Peers automatically forfeit their seats in the Commons (exhibit A - Tony Benn).
    Although today, Viscount Stansgate would still remain an MP.
    Yes, but we're talking about being members of the Lords. You can't take a life peerage and stay in the Commons, surely?
    No, that's of course correct. But exhibit A - young Mr Benn - was for an hereditary peerage and since Blair's 'reform' in the late 1990s, these are no longer automatically members of the Lords.
    I know that. What I was saying was that becoming a member of the Lords automatically means you leave the commons. Even if you don't want it to (although in that case why accept a peerage)?

    Which was true until the removal of automatic hereditary peerages in the 1990s and is why Benn despite refusing to take his seat in the Lords still had his commons seat declared vacant and was not allowed to remain an MP even though he won the by-election with a 13,000 majority.
    What was interesting is that the Macmillan Government then introduced legislation to allow peers to renounce their titles within a certain period. This was intended to remedy the injustice to Tony Benn, but it also had the effect of then allowing both Home and Hailsham to do the same and thus become viable contenders for the Tory Leadership in November 1963. A law with unintended consequences....
    The irony being that Tony Benn's son and heir is now a hereditary Labour peer. Bob's yer uncle etc. etc.
    Home was a true Toff though, the 14th Earl of Home. Benn just had a father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being a Labour MP and Minister.

    Indeed not even the House of Lords has many genuine toffs left, most of them are just appointed Life Peers given most hereditary peers were removed in 1999
    Home a true toff? He just had a g-g-g --- ... father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being on the winning side of a minor civil war.
    Well if you go back far enough all Dukes were just loyal supporters of the King and Earls the most prominent supporters of William the Conqueror (replacing the old Saxon Earls)
    Murderous thugs, in other words.
    Like William Wallace you mean?

    Unless you were a Bishop or Abbott or a Lawyer most of the elite were in those days
    Wallace? Only because a bunch of thugs invaded Scotland.
    Wallace also sacked towns and cities across the North of England
    And they still think he's a suitable candidate for NATO Secretary-General? Ridiculous.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @BethRigby
    Think Sunak going to have an issue with privileges cttee vote if senior Tories like May support the motion as PM dodges. He promised govt of integrity, accountability and professionalism. Opponents will criticise if he avoids the vote. Watch KS call him weak at PMQs on Weds

    But it was so predictable.
    He should probably just call an election. Time to get rid of him, he’s not up to it.
    An early election would be a nice idea if we were really going to replace the government with something better. Unfortunately the alternative is Sir Kier Boredom and the loony Labour Public Sector Party ffs!
    Oh do stop it. You posted for years that Starmer was ok. Now you're reverting to tory story propaganda output because you finally have a non risible leader and there's an election coming.
    Nigel seems to be part of a cadre of posters who will allow themselves to complain occasionally about the Cons but will also vote for them regardless. Even economic malfeasance and outright corruption is unable to shake their votes.

    See also, BigG, DavidL and CasinoRoyale.

    They all seem to have formed their view of Labour in the 1980s or earlier, with the exception of CR who’s just an young fogey.


    And as far as public sector wage demands are concerned then he will bow to his union masters



    You haven’t the faintest idea about public sector pay.

    In my ALB, I have a colleague, stuck at the top of an immobile payscale, who earns less net now than she did in 2012. Because of increased pension/NI contributions. Other colleagues are now regular foodbank users. This can’t be right. We have no progression, no increments, and towards the top of scales, no increases, inflationary or otherwise.

    We are struggling to recruit to specialist roles because pay has fallen so far behind the third sector, never mind the private sector.

    You are happy to take your triple locked pension whilst taking pops at public sector pay arrangements you clearly don’t understand.

    As was observed on here, how can it be right for non-workers to be rewarded whilst workers are told there’s no money.
    Actually my daughter has 31 years in the civil service, and I have opposed the triple lock over the last 2 years

    Unfortunately for you Starmer supports it also
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    pigeon said:

    Never mind yesterday's fat oaf, the big news today is that Sunak has declined to offer more help to struggling mortgage payers. I mean, we'll see how long that position lasts as the pained screaming ramps up through the rest of this year and into the next, but for all of us who are desperately willing the vastly overinflated property bubble to burst in spectacular fashion it can't be anything but positive news.

    Providing 'support' for mortgage payers will simply accelerate inflation and keep interest rates higher for longer

    House prices might fall a little in nominal terms but there won't be a collapse, of course inflation enhances the real impact

    Property should be viewed as a home to live in, not an investment
    A former member of the Bank of England was interviewed on yesterday's Sophie on Sunday and provided one of the most sensible and informative responses to the present crisis and said that covid and Ukraine were the driving factor behind inflation, and in a much smaller way brexit, but that no government could risk bailing out mortgage holders as that would provide an immediate response from the markets in even higher interest rates

    Indeed Starmer refused to endorse bailing out mortgagees in this current climate
    This is correct.

    Although a more interesting question is why the brunt of inflation suppression should fall solely on mortgage holders.

    This is quite a different market than even twenty years ago. Interest rates only hit a certain, well-defined sector of the population.
    The BoE was arguing vociferously for wage suppression well before the panic about mortgage interest really set in.

    Ultimately it's all dictated by market forces. It's a workers' job market in most sectors, so employers that attempt wage suppression merely lose experienced staff and find it harder to recruit (or have to plug gaps with very expensive temps and locum staff.) Thus, their attempts are typically self-defeating.

    Government could attempt to stifle demand by freezing state pensions and other social security, or limiting rises to well below the rate of inflation, but that has proven politically impossible.

    Take those two mechanisms out of the equation, and the burden of taming inflation must, necessarily, fall disproportionately on the property market. Which, we hardly need reminding, has been in a state of rampant runaway inflation for the whole of the century so far, the period of the GFC excepted.

    A correction in property prices and a return to normal interest rates are both massively overdue, and the pain from that will inevitably be borne primarily by mortgage payers, along with indebted businesses facing steep financing costs. TINA, and all that.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707

    Nick Fletcher is a snivelling little toad.

    Wants only Tory MPs to judge Tory MPs, Labour MPs to judge Labour MPs.
    Good news for the independents, then!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693

    I'd vote in favour of this report, with a few minor reservations.

    But if Johnson gets censured to this degree about this, how did Blair remain in power for years after his lies over Iraq - something that had much greater effect on the country?

    The award for whatabout of the day goes to
    It's not really a 'whatabout' is it? It appears the standards expected in the house have altered after this. Hopefully these new higher standards will be applicable to future government, whichever party is in power. And what Blair did would be totally unforgivable.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,121

    Nick Fletcher is a snivelling little toad.

    Wants only Tory MPs to judge Tory MPs, Labour MPs to judge Labour MPs.
    Good news for the independents, then!
    Bloody brilliant for the Greens!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Because she would not commit to stand down as an MP.
    Why would she need to? Peers automatically forfeit their seats in the Commons (exhibit A - Tony Benn).
    Although today, Viscount Stansgate would still remain an MP.
    Yes, but we're talking about being members of the Lords. You can't take a life peerage and stay in the Commons, surely?
    No, that's of course correct. But exhibit A - young Mr Benn - was for an hereditary peerage and since Blair's 'reform' in the late 1990s, these are no longer automatically members of the Lords.
    I know that. What I was saying was that becoming a member of the Lords automatically means you leave the commons. Even if you don't want it to (although in that case why accept a peerage)?

    Which was true until the removal of automatic hereditary peerages in the 1990s and is why Benn despite refusing to take his seat in the Lords still had his commons seat declared vacant and was not allowed to remain an MP even though he won the by-election with a 13,000 majority.
    What was interesting is that the Macmillan Government then introduced legislation to allow peers to renounce their titles within a certain period. This was intended to remedy the injustice to Tony Benn, but it also had the effect of then allowing both Home and Hailsham to do the same and thus become viable contenders for the Tory Leadership in November 1963. A law with unintended consequences....
    The irony being that Tony Benn's son and heir is now a hereditary Labour peer. Bob's yer uncle etc. etc.
    Home was a true Toff though, the 14th Earl of Home. Benn just had a father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being a Labour MP and Minister.

    Indeed not even the House of Lords has many genuine toffs left, most of them are just appointed Life Peers given most hereditary peers were removed in 1999
    Home a true toff? He just had a g-g-g --- ... father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being on the winning side of a minor civil war.
    Well if you go back far enough all Dukes were just loyal supporters of the King and Earls the most prominent supporters of William the Conqueror (replacing the old Saxon Earls)
    Murderous thugs, in other words.
    Like William Wallace you mean?

    Unless you were a Bishop or Abbott or a Lawyer most of the elite were in those days
    Wallace? Only because a bunch of thugs invaded Scotland.
    Wallace also sacked towns and cities across the North of England
    And yet you put him in charge of our country’s defences?
    Poacher turned gamekeeper?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    It may be just be me, but I feel like the Borisians would be more effective if they didn't indulge their theatrical desire to show off. Even though it is not a process like a legal trial you could make decent headway by just in boring fashion suggesting the proof of various conclusions was thin, stick to the lines of his defences that he really beleived X and so did many others, but no, they just have to rehearse their entries for the 8th annual histrionic appreciation gathering.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291

    I'd vote in favour of this report, with a few minor reservations.

    But if Johnson gets censured to this degree about this, how did Blair remain in power for years after his lies over Iraq - something that had much greater effect on the country?

    Indeed. If only Parliament has showed the eagerness to bring Blair to account for all his lies over Iraq...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    I'd vote in favour of this report, with a few minor reservations.

    But if Johnson gets censured to this degree about this, how did Blair remain in power for years after his lies over Iraq - something that had much greater effect on the country?

    This would show progress then.

    The alternative is you never do the right thing because we've done wrong in the past.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Some way for Cash to go before the record:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Young_(Irish_politician)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    kle4 said:

    I'd vote in favour of this report, with a few minor reservations.

    But if Johnson gets censured to this degree about this, how did Blair remain in power for years after his lies over Iraq - something that had much greater effect on the country?

    This would show progress then.

    The alternative is you never do the right thing because we've done wrong in the past.
    The civil service: Many things must be done, but nothing must ever be done for the first time.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    I've missed most of the 'debate' due to parenting.

    Has there been a true tubthumping moment; a speech of pure, angry derision?

    Yes

    https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1670837935665561620

    and

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1670828872898576385
    "I'm from Birmingham, and I say it as I see it."

    WTAF? ;)
    She was interrupting Lia Nici who had just said the same thing: "I'm from Grimsby and I have to say it as I see it".
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    edited June 2023

    Miklosvar said:

    IanB2 said:

    I've missed most of the 'debate' due to parenting.

    Has there been a true tubthumping moment; a speech of pure, angry derision?

    Yes

    https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1670837935665561620

    and

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1670828872898576385
    "I'm from Birmingham, and I say it as I see it."

    WTAF? ;)
    When it comes to Brummies they say it as they see it but the rest of the country cannot understand a word they say due to their accents.
    I'm not from Birmingham, but no-one ever understands what I say...
    Shouting stuff at people as you run past at some unnatural pace isn’t terribly conducive to understanding.
    I am not a fast runner, but thanks for overestimating my capability. :)

    I certainly don't run fast enough to redshift my speech. (*)

    (*) Can sound by redshifted?
    Yes, it's the Doppler effect.
    Yep, that was stupid of me. Thanks.
    If my slightly shaky knowledge is correct, Doppler shift is not quite the same as red shift.

    Doppler shift is a function of relative movement, whereas you can also have a red shift between (relatively) stationary objects if the space between them is expanding.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Too much focus on the property market aspect is unjustified IMO. The first swing of the scythe, months ago, was business investment. For the first time Big Tech had to cut jobs. Investment that makes sense with free money didn't any more. Business conditions affect a lot more people on top of mortgage borrowers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    ydoethur said:

    Some way for Cash to go before the record:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Young_(Irish_politician)

    Pah, a mere stripling among wordwide legislators.

    Strom Thurmond died in office aged 100
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675

    ydoethur said:

    RESPECT LOL.

    Sir Bill Cash tells the Commons: “Those who say the dogs bark and the caravan moves on miss the wood for the trees. The caravan of this House, having moved on, will certainly come back, and then the dogs will not only merely bark, but they will bite.”

    Me neither.


    https://twitter.com/BenKentish/status/1670855828050526208

    Not so much cash as American Express.

    Idolised in certain quarters but nobody else likes them or can see the point.
    I love my AMEX, the benefits you got with the Centurion Charge Card is worth the annual fee.
    What benefits do you get
    https://www.headforpoints.com/2022/09/23/american-express-centurion-card-uk-benefits/
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Leon said:

    Actually I know what those Cincy kids will think when they first hit London

    “How come everyone is thin”

    (Not true of the Uk as a whole or course but definitely true of the Smoke)

    I met a Cincinattian in Monaco who was going to the Grand Prix. He was doing a Euro tour. ' 21 Cities' Whether he was rich or not I couldn't say but he was prepred to pay 920 euros to watch the race which I wasn't. He asked me how far it was from London and I said about an hour and a half away 'That's like just a State where I live! ' He sounded surprised. Then I let him fiddle with my camera and we said our goodbyes.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240
    kle4 said:

    It may be just be me, but I feel like the Borisians would be more effective if they didn't indulge their theatrical desire to show off. Even though it is not a process like a legal trial you could make decent headway by just in boring fashion suggesting the proof of various conclusions was thin, stick to the lines of his defences that he really beleived X and so did many others, but no, they just have to rehearse their entries for the 8th annual histrionic appreciation gathering.

    Though to a large extent, they've always been like this. What has changed is the context; the public are much less willing to suspend disblief at their various turns. For turns is what they're doing, and they're getting a bit boring.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    6K in tonight in the relative heat, shins behaving

    It'd be a lot more comfortable if you went out at five o'clock in the morning. It's the right time of year and the right conditions for it :smile:
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707
    ydoethur said:

    Some way for Cash to go before the record:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Young_(Irish_politician)

    Also: winner of the Ironic Surname competition.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Why has her peerage been blocked, anyway? I mean, whatever one thinks of her she is not obviously less qualified for the role than other recent appointees and arguably more qualified than at least one of them.

    Because she would not commit to stand down as an MP.
    Why would she need to? Peers automatically forfeit their seats in the Commons (exhibit A - Tony Benn).
    Although today, Viscount Stansgate would still remain an MP.
    Yes, but we're talking about being members of the Lords. You can't take a life peerage and stay in the Commons, surely?
    No, that's of course correct. But exhibit A - young Mr Benn - was for an hereditary peerage and since Blair's 'reform' in the late 1990s, these are no longer automatically members of the Lords.
    I know that. What I was saying was that becoming a member of the Lords automatically means you leave the commons. Even if you don't want it to (although in that case why accept a peerage)?

    Which was true until the removal of automatic hereditary peerages in the 1990s and is why Benn despite refusing to take his seat in the Lords still had his commons seat declared vacant and was not allowed to remain an MP even though he won the by-election with a 13,000 majority.
    What was interesting is that the Macmillan Government then introduced legislation to allow peers to renounce their titles within a certain period. This was intended to remedy the injustice to Tony Benn, but it also had the effect of then allowing both Home and Hailsham to do the same and thus become viable contenders for the Tory Leadership in November 1963. A law with unintended consequences....
    The irony being that Tony Benn's son and heir is now a hereditary Labour peer. Bob's yer uncle etc. etc.
    Home was a true Toff though, the 14th Earl of Home. Benn just had a father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being a Labour MP and Minister.

    Indeed not even the House of Lords has many genuine toffs left, most of them are just appointed Life Peers given most hereditary peers were removed in 1999
    Home a true toff? He just had a g-g-g --- ... father who got a hereditary peerage as reward for being on the winning side of a minor civil war.
    Well if you go back far enough all Dukes were just loyal supporters of the King and Earls the most prominent supporters of William the Conqueror (replacing the old Saxon Earls)
    Murderous thugs, in other words.
    Like William Wallace you mean?

    Unless you were a Bishop or Abbott or a Lawyer most of the elite were in those days
    Wallace? Only because a bunch of thugs invaded Scotland.
    Wallace also sacked towns and cities across the North of England
    And yet you put him in charge of our country’s defences?
    Well, we're trying to offload him to NATO to make him less of a risk, but apparently that's not likely. The Telegraph are blaming Macron.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited June 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Some way for Cash to go before the record:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Young_(Irish_politician)

    Also: winner of the Ironic Surname competition.
    Until it is revealed Young Boozer III is a teetotaler.
This discussion has been closed.