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Why This Fight? Why Now? – politicalbetting.com

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    Nigelb said:

    LOL
    AN AIRFORCE DRONE OPTIMISED FOR POINTS WENT ROGUE AND KILLED OPERATOR!: a thousand retweets
    “In a simulation” - 100 retweets
    “In a paper ‘what if” scenario brainstormed around a desk*” - 10 retweets

    https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1664571000917315586

    *As are most decisions to go to war, TBF.

    OTOH,

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/01/us-military-drone-ai-killed-operator-simulated-test

    No idea who is fibbing ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Government institutional intransigence and cricket talk - this thread is now cyclefree's worse nightmare.

    No. Being made to watch one would be.
    An inquiry ?
    Yes, appalling.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281

    kle4 said:

    Government institutional intransigence and cricket talk - this thread is now cyclefree's worse nightmare.

    Cricket could be improved by referring all LBW decisions immediately to a judge-led inquiry.
    They currently have the right of enquiry to the umpire.
    A brief inquiry conducted by DRS is available.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914
    edited June 2023

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Government institutional intransigence and cricket talk - this thread is now cyclefree's worse nightmare.

    No. Being made to watch one would be.
    To be honest, so is this issue.

    I'm sure there's some skulduggery lying beneath it but I am so bored of Boris Johnson, Covid, lockdown and WhatsApp chats.

    I hope the right thing is done, of course, but there are a million other things we should be talking about and I have next to no interest in this one.
    "but there are a million other things we should be talking about"

    Philip Schofield?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,694

    Brian Lara’s record’s going to fall today isn’t it?

    Not a chance. Stokes will go for the win tonight by declaring.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Government institutional intransigence and cricket talk - this thread is now cyclefree's worse nightmare.

    No. Being made to watch one would be.
    To be honest, so is this issue.

    I'm sure there's some skulduggery lying beneath it but I am so bored of Boris Johnson, Covid, lockdown and WhatsApp chats.

    I hope the right thing is done, of course, but there are a million other things we should be talking about and I have next to no interest in this one.
    "but there are a million other things we should be talking about"

    Philip Schofield?
    People expect Boris to be a naughty boy, they didn't expect the same from Philip Schofield however
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,168

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Government institutional intransigence and cricket talk - this thread is now cyclefree's worse nightmare.

    No. Being made to watch one would be.
    To be honest, so is this issue.

    I'm sure there's some skulduggery lying beneath it but I am so bored of Boris Johnson, Covid, lockdown and WhatsApp chats.

    I hope the right thing is done, of course, but there are a million other things we should be talking about and I have next to no interest in this one.
    Absofcukinglutely.
    Not half enough Phillip Schofield chat imo.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    148grss said:

    Two big options in my mind: 1) this is like POTUS' protecting executive privilege no matter who is in the WH to protect their own skin and expand the powers of the office, so Sunak / govt is trying to make Whatsapp messages a no go area (probably because too much work gets talked about in a candid way on there, and it isn't FOI able) or 2) Sunak knows he messaged Johnson specific things regarding Covid and he doesn't want that getting out (such as "Eat Out To Help Out might have killed 1,000 grannies, but at least I can go to the Spectator garden party and say I didn't have to raise taxes, lol)

    Either way, it doesn't help Sunak and the gov

    Guito Harri recently revealed that questions had been asked by Boris's team about Sunak spending a lot of money and getting poor value. If there's stuff of that nature relating to Covid contracts, it really could be incendiary.
    Why? Who is going to be shocked that what we spent during covid was poor value? Of course it was poor value, there was a global shortage of supply and extortionate sellers profiteering.

    Poor value and corrupt is what most of the public have already baked in, so nothing incendiary there.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    Brown and May were both competent if a touch dour/flatfooted.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    The competition for prime ministerial competence this century is notably limited.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    The quality of the PMs we get or the statement?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,947

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    I would agree with @HYUFD , but look at the competition:

    Brown - indecisive
    May - stubborn
    Johnson - corrupt
    Truss - useless
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    Pulpstar said:

    Brian Lara’s record’s going to fall today isn’t it?

    Duckett will need a disproportionate amount of strike and will have to move up a couple of gears to achieve that particular milestone today. Possible though, he'll need to go at 7.8 an over if he gets half the balls.
    England won’t declare until Bairstow has had a bat.

    So this could go on all day.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281

    Brian Lara’s record’s going to fall today isn’t it?

    Not a chance. Stokes will go for the win tonight by declaring.
    Bairstow still can't buy a run...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    edited June 2023
    The only way I can explain the Schofield obsession is that Britons collectively feel totally scammed by “ideal husband” Philip Schofield AND television at large.

    The so-called grooming allegations seem almost incidental. The story seems to be fed by a visceral mistrust of years of bullshit from the media-politico-industrial complex.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417

    Pulpstar said:

    Brian Lara’s record’s going to fall today isn’t it?

    Duckett will need a disproportionate amount of strike and will have to move up a couple of gears to achieve that particular milestone today. Possible though, he'll need to go at 7.8 an over if he gets half the balls.
    England won’t declare until Bairstow has had a bat.

    So this could go on all day.
    In reality he'll probably hole out slogging when he's around 250ish.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    The only way I can explain the Schofield obsession is that Britons collectively feel totally scammed by “ideal husband” Philip Schofield AND television at large.

    The so-called grooming allegations seem almost incidental. The story seems to be fed by a visceral mistrust of years of bullshit from the media-politico-industrial complex.

    Five Live, the UK's main sports radio station, was doing a massive phone in about right after the incredible story of Luton's rise to the Premiership. World's gone mad.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    🇷🇺governors of Smolensk, Kaluga & Kursk regions in Russia's W reported night drone attacks, claiming Ukraine to be responsible

    Alleged attacks resulted in explosions on fuel & energy facilities, damage of water fire suppression tank & admini building

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1664603266976747521
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    Why is it that almost all the people on PB talking about Schofield are those who say it's ridiculous to be talking about Schofield ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,168
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    I would agree with @HYUFD , but look at the competition:

    Brown - indecisive
    May - stubborn
    Johnson - corrupt
    Truss - useless
    Brown was actually a quite strange combo of indecision and stubborness which means he never apologises for anything.
    We've just had another dose of him up here with his shiny new version of patriotism not nationalism, nary a word of regret over the bullshit of the Vow.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited June 2023

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    I would agree with @HYUFD , but look at the competition:

    Brown - indecisive
    May - stubborn
    Johnson - corrupt
    Truss - useless
    Brown was actually a quite strange combo of indecision and stubborness which means he never apologises for anything.
    We've just had another dose of him up here with his shiny new version of patriotism not nationalism, nary a word of regret over the bullshit of the Vow.
    It wasn't bullshit
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Act_2016
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,177
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL
    AN AIRFORCE DRONE OPTIMISED FOR POINTS WENT ROGUE AND KILLED OPERATOR!: a thousand retweets
    “In a simulation” - 100 retweets
    “In a paper ‘what if” scenario brainstormed around a desk*” - 10 retweets

    https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1664571000917315586

    *As are most decisions to go to war, TBF.

    OTOH,

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/01/us-military-drone-ai-killed-operator-simulated-test

    No idea who is fibbing ...
    Person of Interest predicts the future, yet again
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,168
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    I would agree with @HYUFD , but look at the competition:

    Brown - indecisive
    May - stubborn
    Johnson - corrupt
    Truss - useless
    Brown was actually a quite strange combo of indecision and stubborness which means he never apologises for anything.
    We've just had another dose of him up here with his shiny new version of patriotism not nationalism, nary a word of regret over the bullshit of the Vow.
    It wasn't bullshit
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Act_2016
    Great to hear about the view from Epping.
    Meanwhile..


  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 454
    Section 21(4)(b) does not, and cannot, take away the right of the government (or anyone else being asked to produce evidence for an inquiry) to take the matter to court. That is particularly so where, as here, the fundamental question is whether the chair is acting ultra vires. The chair does not have the power to decide the limits of her own jurisdiction or powers.

    I suspect that Cyclefree may have taken a different view about this if she was one of the named individuals and the chair was attempting to force her to hand over WhatsApp messages about private family matters on the off chance that they may, at some undefined point in the future, become relevant to the inquiry.

    My tentative view is that the inquiry chair has drawn her order far too widely. As it stands, it clearly requires the production of irrelevant material. Section 21 of the Act does not give her that power. If her order was more tightly drawn, specifying, for example, that she wanted communications that were about the government's response to Covid-19 (as specified in the original Rule 9 request), there would be no problem. But she is demanding everything without any consideration as to whether or not it is relevant, on the basis that it might be relevant, either now or in the future. Such a request requires, on pain of criminal sanctions, production of communications that are plainly not relevant and could never be relevant to the inquiry. I doubt that such a request would be allowed in a civil case as the courts don't like litigants going on fishing expeditions. The legislation clearly says that the chair cannot require individuals to produce anything they would not be ordered to produce in a civil case. However, that is only a tentative view based on limited information.

    I will be interested to see what the courts decide on this one.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,164

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    I would agree with @HYUFD , but look at the competition:

    Brown - indecisive
    May - stubborn
    Johnson - corrupt
    Truss - useless
    Brown was actually a quite strange combo of indecision and stubborness which means he never apologises for anything.
    We've just had another dose of him up here with his shiny new version of patriotism not nationalism, nary a word of regret over the bullshit of the Vow.
    It wasn't bullshit
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Act_2016
    Great to hear about the view from Epping.
    Meanwhile..

    …meanwhile, the Epping tank regiment would more usefully be sent to Ukraine.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    I would agree with @HYUFD , but look at the competition:

    Brown - indecisive
    May - stubborn
    Johnson - corrupt
    Truss - useless
    Brown was actually a quite strange combo of indecision and stubborness which means he never apologises for anything.
    We've just had another dose of him up here with his shiny new version of patriotism not nationalism, nary a word of regret over the bullshit of the Vow.
    It wasn't bullshit
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Act_2016
    I guess he is not a "proper Scot" for uber-nats like @Theuniondivvie
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281

    Section 21(4)(b) does not, and cannot, take away the right of the government (or anyone else being asked to produce evidence for an inquiry) to take the matter to court. That is particularly so where, as here, the fundamental question is whether the chair is acting ultra vires. The chair does not have the power to decide the limits of her own jurisdiction or powers.

    I suspect that Cyclefree may have taken a different view about this if she was one of the named individuals and the chair was attempting to force her to hand over WhatsApp messages about private family matters on the off chance that they may, at some undefined point in the future, become relevant to the inquiry.

    My tentative view is that the inquiry chair has drawn her order far too widely. As it stands, it clearly requires the production of irrelevant material. Section 21 of the Act does not give her that power. If her order was more tightly drawn, specifying, for example, that she wanted communications that were about the government's response to Covid-19 (as specified in the original Rule 9 request), there would be no problem. But she is demanding everything without any consideration as to whether or not it is relevant, on the basis that it might be relevant, either now or in the future. Such a request requires, on pain of criminal sanctions, production of communications that are plainly not relevant and could never be relevant to the inquiry. I doubt that such a request would be allowed in a civil case as the courts don't like litigants going on fishing expeditions. The legislation clearly says that the chair cannot require individuals to produce anything they would not be ordered to produce in a civil case. However, that is only a tentative view based on limited information.

    I will be interested to see what the courts decide on this one.

    Which civil case has a scope comparable to that granted to this inquiry ?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    I would agree with @HYUFD , but look at the competition:

    Brown - indecisive
    May - stubborn
    Johnson - corrupt
    Truss - useless
    This is my semi-regular reminder that I liked Brown and thought he made a good PM (Chancellor, on the other hand...). Given his actions during the GFC, referring to him as "indecisive" should at least be qualified.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,168
    Speaking of bullshit..

    'Sorry captain, the bullshitometer just cannae take it'




  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Cyclefree said:

    Sure this has been done, but Boris is giving what he has directly to the enquiry:

    https://order-order.com/2023/06/02/boris-giving-whatsapps-and-diaries-directly-to-covid-inquiry/

    “The government yesterday decided to take legal action. It was not my decision to do so. While I understand the government’s position, I am not willing to let my material become a test case for others when I am perfectly content for the inquiry to see it.

    I am therefore providing the material directly to your Inquiry today in unredacted form.”

    When is it enquiry and when is it inquiry?

    He and his advisor, Henry Cook, are interested powers in the government's application and we are paying for his lawyers. So, once again, his statement is not entirely accurate.
    I believe Boris has changed his legal counsel - it was having the Cabinet Office fund his legal team that gave them access to the info they recently shopped him to the police and Privileges Committee with. I think the change happened after that.
    Is BoJo now paying for "his" legal counsel, instead of letting the taxpayers pick up the tab?

    Somehow doubt it!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352

    The only way I can explain the Schofield obsession is that Britons collectively feel totally scammed by “ideal husband” Philip Schofield AND television at large.

    The so-called grooming allegations seem almost incidental. The story seems to be fed by a visceral mistrust of years of bullshit from the media-politico-industrial complex.

    And why should any presenter or public figure open up their personal lives for public gaze and mindless gossip because tabloid journalists think they should? No, this story is just homophobia, pure and simple
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    edited June 2023
    Going by the live YouGov poll no 10 have badly misjudged this .

    The public clearly siding with Baroness Hallett .

    As for Johnson , pretty clear what he’s up to .

    He’s hoping to influence the Privileges Committee by looking very gallant in offering up his messages and also there’s some incriminating messages which will embarrass Sunak .

    Either way Sunak looks like he’s scored a massive own goal. This looks like a cover-up and gives Starmer plenty of ammunition .
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,388
    edited June 2023

    The only way I can explain the Schofield obsession is that Britons collectively feel totally scammed by “ideal husband” Philip Schofield AND television at large.

    The so-called grooming allegations seem almost incidental. The story seems to be fed by a visceral mistrust of years of bullshit from the media-politico-industrial complex.

    It's much simpler than that. Nobody loves talking about the media more than... the media.

    So this is the kind of story that will always spark a media feeding frenzy.

    Regular people are just along for the ride but how much of the general public actually care beyond a voyeuristic fascinating similar to watching the aftermath of a car crash on the motorway I'm not sure (but probably not very much) ?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,694
    edited June 2023

    The only way I can explain the Schofield obsession is that Britons collectively feel totally scammed by “ideal husband” Philip Schofield AND television at large.

    The so-called grooming allegations seem almost incidental. The story seems to be fed by a visceral mistrust of years of bullshit from the media-politico-industrial complex.

    And why should any presenter or public figure open up their personal lives for public gaze and mindless gossip because tabloid journalists think they should? No, this story is just homophobia, pure and simple
    I don't agree. He has not been sacked from ITV because he has had an affair with a man. He has been sacked because he has lost the trust of the programmes producers and crew by lying about it.

    Edit - if you recall, he wasn't sacked when he came out.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,477
    Nigelb said:

    Why is it that almost all the people on PB talking about Schofield are those who say it's ridiculous to be talking about Schofield ?

    If there is a smidgeon of genuine public interest in the story it surrounds the question of how such a poor presenter thrived for decades at the BBC.

    As for his protege, I've just seen an extract from one of his shows. It is inconceivable he could have got the job on merit.

    So, if you actually think the Beeb is worth supporting, it's worth asking what is going on behind the scenes there, and not just in connection with Schofield. If not, the topic is of zero interest and best left to be handled by the worst newspapers and magazines.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Matthew Goodwin, the Nick Griffin of academics
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    The argument is not about relaying information into the public domain. It's about whether the enquiry judge is allowed to review the material to determine what is relevant to the enquiry. I don't think this is "executive aggrandisement". It's a cover up. There is material the government doesn't want the judge to see because it knows or suspects this material is relevant to the enquiry and compromises them.

    It is both. The government is seeking to take from the inquiry judge powers which have been granted by law to the latter. Not the executive.
    Thanks. I agree. My point was the government's motivation for rejecting the judge's order is to cover up. But the effect is executive aggrandisement, which is part of a general trend with this government.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319

    Matthew Goodwin, the Nick Griffin of academics

    It’s grimly fascinating to watch in real time the alt-right radicalisation of characters like Goodwin and that deranged Scottish historian.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    ...

    Cyclefree said:

    Sure this has been done, but Boris is giving what he has directly to the enquiry:

    https://order-order.com/2023/06/02/boris-giving-whatsapps-and-diaries-directly-to-covid-inquiry/

    “The government yesterday decided to take legal action. It was not my decision to do so. While I understand the government’s position, I am not willing to let my material become a test case for others when I am perfectly content for the inquiry to see it.

    I am therefore providing the material directly to your Inquiry today in unredacted form.”

    When is it enquiry and when is it inquiry?

    He and his advisor, Henry Cook, are interested powers in the government's application and we are paying for his lawyers. So, once again, his statement is not entirely accurate.
    I believe Boris has changed his legal counsel - it was having the Cabinet Office fund his legal team that gave them access to the info they recently shopped him to the police and Privileges Committee with. I think the change happened after that.
    Is BoJo now paying for "his" legal counsel, instead of letting the taxpayers pick up the tab?

    Somehow doubt it!
    Given that the taxpayer funded ones dobbed him in to the fuzz, yes!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352

    Cyclefree said:

    Sure this has been done, but Boris is giving what he has directly to the enquiry:

    https://order-order.com/2023/06/02/boris-giving-whatsapps-and-diaries-directly-to-covid-inquiry/

    “The government yesterday decided to take legal action. It was not my decision to do so. While I understand the government’s position, I am not willing to let my material become a test case for others when I am perfectly content for the inquiry to see it.

    I am therefore providing the material directly to your Inquiry today in unredacted form.”

    When is it enquiry and when is it inquiry?

    He and his advisor, Henry Cook, are interested powers in the government's application and we are paying for his lawyers. So, once again, his statement is not entirely accurate.
    I believe Boris has changed his legal counsel - it was having the Cabinet Office fund his legal team that gave them access to the info they recently shopped him to the police and Privileges Committee with. I think the change happened after that.
    Is BoJo now paying for "his" legal counsel, instead of letting the taxpayers pick up the tab?

    Somehow doubt it!
    And of course the beauty of WhatsApp is that it is very secure and no one will know whether he has released it all or deleted the bits that are a bit embarrassing
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    Mike Brearley on Test Match Special's lunchtime slot. Fascinating to listen to.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    I don’t know why Eamonn Holmes thinks it appropriate to join the pile on. Especially with a face that is so absurdly botoxed.

    One feels suddenly that all of day-time television is one big grift; the presenters are essentially talentless egos.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Slow news day, huh?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,388
    edited June 2023
    On topic: Rishi's looking a bit fishy isn't he?

    What does he have to hide in these messages?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592

    I don’t know why Eamonn Holmes thinks it appropriate to join the pile on. Especially with a face that is so absurdly botoxed.

    One feels suddenly that all of day-time television is one big grift; the presenters are essentially talentless egos.

    Eamonn Holmes is hoping that by getting some publicity he can escape Gbebbies and possibly get work on a better channel (or get some viewers and retain his GBeebies money).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303

    Matthew Goodwin, the Nick Griffin of academics

    It’s grimly fascinating to watch in real time the alt-right radicalisation of characters like Goodwin and that deranged Scottish historian.
    I don’t think you can compare them. One is a nutter and one is just a self-promoter.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    edited June 2023
    FF43 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    The argument is not about relaying information into the public domain. It's about whether the enquiry judge is allowed to review the material to determine what is relevant to the enquiry. I don't think this is "executive aggrandisement". It's a cover up. There is material the government doesn't want the judge to see because it knows or suspects this material is relevant to the enquiry and compromises them.

    It is both. The government is seeking to take from the inquiry judge powers which have been granted by law to the latter. Not the executive.
    Thanks. I agree. My point was the government's motivation for rejecting the judge's order is to cover up. But the effect is executive aggrandisement, which is part of a general trend with this government.
    Historians will write about the attempts at executive aggrandisement following the 2016 vote.

    It’s one of the exquisite ironies of Brexit that the arch-Brexiter, having promised more control for voters, focused so intently on hoarding control unto himself.

    Sunak is useless, utterly shit, to continue in this vein.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Rishi Sunak is not good at hiding things, the Ed Miliband tribute act falls down at such times.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    edited June 2023

    Section 21(4)(b) does not, and cannot, take away the right of the government (or anyone else being asked to produce evidence for an inquiry) to take the matter to court. That is particularly so where, as here, the fundamental question is whether the chair is acting ultra vires. The chair does not have the power to decide the limits of her own jurisdiction or powers.

    I suspect that Cyclefree may have taken a different view about this if she was one of the named individuals and the chair was attempting to force her to hand over WhatsApp messages about private family matters on the off chance that they may, at some undefined point in the future, become relevant to the inquiry.

    My tentative view is that the inquiry chair has drawn her order far too widely. As it stands, it clearly requires the production of irrelevant material. Section 21 of the Act does not give her that power. If her order was more tightly drawn, specifying, for example, that she wanted communications that were about the government's response to Covid-19 (as specified in the original Rule 9 request), there would be no problem. But she is demanding everything without any consideration as to whether or not it is relevant, on the basis that it might be relevant, either now or in the future. Such a request requires, on pain of criminal sanctions, production of communications that are plainly not relevant and could never be relevant to the inquiry. I doubt that such a request would be allowed in a civil case as the courts don't like litigants going on fishing expeditions. The legislation clearly says that the chair cannot require individuals to produce anything they would not be ordered to produce in a civil case. However, that is only a tentative view based on limited information.

    I will be interested to see what the courts decide on this one.

    It seems clear the judge thinks the Cabinet Office lied to her about them not holding the notebooks and WhatsApp messages. Possibly if she had more trust in the CO she would allow them some discretion in what they pass over.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    edited June 2023

    Matthew Goodwin, the Nick Griffin of academics

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    I recently polled British voters and asked them what issues they care the most about AND feel they are not represented on. The most popular?

    1. Slashing immigration
    2. Opposing Woke Political Correctness
    3. Promoting not attacking Britain’s distinctive identity, history, & culture

    https://mattgoodwin.substack.com/p/does-britain-need-a-new-party"

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1664540480082788355
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    Nigelb said:

    Why is it that almost all the people on PB talking about Schofield are those who say it's ridiculous to be talking about Schofield ?

    If there is a smidgeon of genuine public interest in the story it surrounds the question of how such a poor presenter thrived for decades at the BBC.

    As for his protege, I've just seen an extract from one of his shows. It is inconceivable he could have got the job on merit.

    So, if you actually think the Beeb is worth supporting, it's worth asking what is going on behind the scenes there, and not just in connection with Schofield. If not, the topic is of zero interest and best left to be handled by the worst newspapers and magazines.
    It's Gary the Gopher I feel sorry for.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Andy_JS said:

    Matthew Goodwin, the Nick Griffin of academics

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    I recently polled British voters and asked them what issues they care the most about AND feel they are not represented on. The most popular?

    1. Slashing immigration
    2. Opposing Woke Political Correctness
    3. Promoting not attacking Britain’s distinctive identity, history, & culture

    https://mattgoodwin.substack.com/p/does-britain-need-a-new-party"

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1664540480082788355
    I rest my case.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,477
    viewcode said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak is utterly useless.

    No he isn't, indeed after Blair and Cameron he is probably the 3rd most competent UK PM this century
    Is this a dark joke?
    I would agree with @HYUFD , but look at the competition:

    Brown - indecisive
    May - stubborn
    Johnson - corrupt
    Truss - useless
    This is my semi-regular reminder that I liked Brown and thought he made a good PM (Chancellor, on the other hand...). Given his actions during the GFC, referring to him as "indecisive" should at least be qualified.
    I thought he was a poor PM, but he was brilliant during the GFC and possibly one of the few world Statesmen who could have carried it off. Given the potential consequences of political failure at that time, he deserves a lot of credit for that alone and I find it frustration that the widespread knee-jerk knocking of him fails to acknowledge that much at least.

    He makes a peculiar mirror-image to Blair, who was on the whole a good PM but will never live down being on the wrong side with Iraq (and unnecessarily so, imo, because he could have sided with the EU rather than Washington but was too subservient to the Bush administration to do so.)

    Anyway, an intersting if flawed couple they certainly make.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why is it that almost all the people on PB talking about Schofield are those who say it's ridiculous to be talking about Schofield ?

    If there is a smidgeon of genuine public interest in the story it surrounds the question of how such a poor presenter thrived for decades at the BBC.

    As for his protege, I've just seen an extract from one of his shows. It is inconceivable he could have got the job on merit.

    So, if you actually think the Beeb is worth supporting, it's worth asking what is going on behind the scenes there, and not just in connection with Schofield. If not, the topic is of zero interest and best left to be handled by the worst newspapers and magazines.
    It's Gary the Gopher I feel sorry for.
    Careful, there’s a super injunction on him.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592
    Andy_JS said:

    Matthew Goodwin, the Nick Griffin of academics

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    I recently polled British voters and asked them what issues they care the most about AND feel they are not represented on. The most popular?

    1. Slashing immigration
    2. Opposing Woke Political Correctness
    3. Promoting not attacking Britain’s distinctive identity, history, & culture

    https://mattgoodwin.substack.com/p/does-britain-need-a-new-party"

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1664540480082788355
    Who selected the sample set and the exact questions that survey result is based on as it's sounds like a Conservative Home echo chamber..
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,388

    I don’t know why Eamonn Holmes thinks it appropriate to join the pile on. Especially with a face that is so absurdly botoxed.

    One feels suddenly that all of day-time television is one big grift; the presenters are essentially talentless egos.

    I've said before about Eamonn Holmes. Never liked him ever since Fathers4Justice invaded the set of the national lottery years ago and his initial reaction was to hide behind his much younger co-host.

    Mr Knight In Shining Armour (NOT) LOL! 😂
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,477

    I don’t know why Eamonn Holmes thinks it appropriate to join the pile on. Especially with a face that is so absurdly botoxed.

    One feels suddenly that all of day-time television is one big grift; the presenters are essentially talentless egos.

    Sure they are, but then look at the audience.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    Sean_F said:

    It's Gary the Gopher I feel sorry for.

    Has he changed his name to avoid publicity?
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Scott_xP said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's Gary the Gopher I feel sorry for.

    Has he changed his name to avoid publicity?
    I believe he's going by Rishi Sunak now
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914
    Scott_xP said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's Gary the Gopher I feel sorry for.

    Has he changed his name to avoid publicity?
    Under the Witness Protection Programme, I believe.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,164
    Leon said:

    Slow news day, huh?

    The hot news is that you aren’t outside John Lewis in Oxford Street carrying your usual “the end is nigh” placard.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319

    Scott_xP said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's Gary the Gopher I feel sorry for.

    Has he changed his name to avoid publicity?
    I believe he's going by Rishi Sunak now
    THE FINLAND RUMOUR FINALLY REVEALED.

    I bet this post doesn’t stay up for long.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    Leon said:

    Slow news day, huh?

    On days like this you should thrive, being something of a talented dilettante when it comes to imaginative writing.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    For Ashish Nehra to go from the streets of Delhi to be PM of the UK is why I love this great country.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    There’s Pope’s ton, do they wait for Duckett to get to 200 then declare?
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    I sense a change, because the Tories are evidently about to be voted out.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Sandpit said:

    There’s Pope’s ton, do they wait for Duckett to get to 200 then declare?

    I suspect so, this is pointless at this point, they could declare now and win easily
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    Yes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,147

    Cyclefree said:

    Sure this has been done, but Boris is giving what he has directly to the enquiry:

    https://order-order.com/2023/06/02/boris-giving-whatsapps-and-diaries-directly-to-covid-inquiry/

    “The government yesterday decided to take legal action. It was not my decision to do so. While I understand the government’s position, I am not willing to let my material become a test case for others when I am perfectly content for the inquiry to see it.

    I am therefore providing the material directly to your Inquiry today in unredacted form.”

    When is it enquiry and when is it inquiry?

    He and his advisor, Henry Cook, are interested powers in the government's application and we are paying for his lawyers. So, once again, his statement is not entirely accurate.
    I believe Boris has changed his legal counsel - it was having the Cabinet Office fund his legal team that gave them access to the info they recently shopped him to the police and Privileges Committee with. I think the change happened after that.
    Is BoJo now paying for "his" legal counsel, instead of letting the taxpayers pick up the tab?

    Somehow doubt it!
    And of course the beauty of WhatsApp is that it is very secure and no one will know whether he has released it all or deleted the bits that are a bit embarrassing
    Deleting messages carries risk. If some other party has the conversation, and that is handed over, then it is an open and shut case of deliberately misleading the enquiry.

    I am going to have to double my popcorn order. 🍿
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    Andy_JS said:

    Matthew Goodwin, the Nick Griffin of academics

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    I recently polled British voters and asked them what issues they care the most about AND feel they are not represented on. The most popular?

    1. Slashing immigration
    2. Opposing Woke Political Correctness
    3. Promoting not attacking Britain’s distinctive identity, history, & culture

    https://mattgoodwin.substack.com/p/does-britain-need-a-new-party"

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1664540480082788355
    Umm. Voodoo poll?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    I sense a change, because the Tories are evidently about to be voted out.
    It is there, isn't it? A brightness in the eyes. Optimism about Britain. We are free and sovereign. BREXIT feels GOOD
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    GIN1138 said:

    On topic: Rishi's looking a bit fishy isn't he?

    What does he have to hide in these messages?

    Excellent question. I don't think it's the "keep things open, save the economy, who cares if a few oldies die" thing. That's pretty common knowledge and Rishi has presented it as a virtue.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914
    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    Alexa; show me an example of bullsh*t!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,388
    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    Perhaps its the fabled "Blitz spirit" starting to emerge in these times of adversity... :D
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    I sense a change, because the Tories are evidently about to be voted out.
    It is there, isn't it? A brightness in the eyes. Optimism about Britain. We are free and sovereign. BREXIT feels GOOD
    I feel good about the future of Britain under a Labour Government yes.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,164

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why is it that almost all the people on PB talking about Schofield are those who say it's ridiculous to be talking about Schofield ?

    If there is a smidgeon of genuine public interest in the story it surrounds the question of how such a poor presenter thrived for decades at the BBC.

    As for his protege, I've just seen an extract from one of his shows. It is inconceivable he could have got the job on merit.

    So, if you actually think the Beeb is worth supporting, it's worth asking what is going on behind the scenes there, and not just in connection with Schofield. If not, the topic is of zero interest and best left to be handled by the worst newspapers and magazines.
    It's Gary the Gopher I feel sorry for.
    Careful, there’s a super injunction on him.
    And the mystery violinist!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,916
    Tres said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Hope no-one here has tickets for Lord’s tomorrow.

    Ben Duckett and Ollie Pope are doing their best to have this match finish today.

    Ireland are pretty awful.
    They are not a bad one day side but have been starved of first class cricket for the last three years and played very few tests since elevated.

    Lesser nations, and I’d include Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and Afghanistan too need more exposure to the longer game. Ireland played their firsts tests in a few years this year and performed modestly but it is a step up to play England.
    Why are they playing us now?
    Ireland's struggles in Test cricket aren't particularly different to other new Test-playing nations. People said the same about Bangladesh, but they don't say it now, because they were able to play matches and improve.
    they have a problem now as their test players are now counted as overseas players in county cricket, so potentially deprives young Irish players of a development route.
    I wonder if that's contrary to the 1948 British Nationality Act?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,164
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    I sense a change, because the Tories are evidently about to be voted out.
    It is there, isn't it? A brightness in the eyes. Optimism about Britain. We are free and sovereign. BREXIT feels GOOD
    Because Brexit allows you to sink a bottle of (probably European) wine at lunchtime?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,388

    GIN1138 said:

    On topic: Rishi's looking a bit fishy isn't he?

    What does he have to hide in these messages?

    Excellent question. I don't think it's the "keep things open, save the economy, who cares if a few oldies die" thing. That's pretty common knowledge and Rishi has presented it as a virtue.
    Well the government will surely lose their litigation so we're bound to find out sooner or later...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,147
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why is it that almost all the people on PB talking about Schofield are those who say it's ridiculous to be talking about Schofield ?

    If there is a smidgeon of genuine public interest in the story it surrounds the question of how such a poor presenter thrived for decades at the BBC.

    As for his protege, I've just seen an extract from one of his shows. It is inconceivable he could have got the job on merit.

    So, if you actually think the Beeb is worth supporting, it's worth asking what is going on behind the scenes there, and not just in connection with Schofield. If not, the topic is of zero interest and best left to be handled by the worst newspapers and magazines.
    It's Gary the Gopher I feel sorry for.
    Is he Gordon's slightly less dubious brother?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why is it that almost all the people on PB talking about Schofield are those who say it's ridiculous to be talking about Schofield ?

    If there is a smidgeon of genuine public interest in the story it surrounds the question of how such a poor presenter thrived for decades at the BBC.

    As for his protege, I've just seen an extract from one of his shows. It is inconceivable he could have got the job on merit.

    So, if you actually think the Beeb is worth supporting, it's worth asking what is going on behind the scenes there, and not just in connection with Schofield. If not, the topic is of zero interest and best left to be handled by the worst newspapers and magazines.
    It's Gary the Gopher I feel sorry for.
    Careful, there’s a super injunction on him.
    Is Gary Gordon's embittered brother who didn't make it to the big time? Now in some dingy bar saying "we all know who had a hand in Gordon's success, don't we?"
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,916

    Brian Lara’s record’s going to fall today isn’t it?

    I think England might declare with a lead of 300.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Matthew Goodwin, the Nick Griffin of academics

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    I recently polled British voters and asked them what issues they care the most about AND feel they are not represented on. The most popular?

    1. Slashing immigration
    2. Opposing Woke Political Correctness
    3. Promoting not attacking Britain’s distinctive identity, history, & culture

    https://mattgoodwin.substack.com/p/does-britain-need-a-new-party"

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1664540480082788355
    Who selected the sample set and the exact questions that survey result is based on as it's sounds like a Conservative Home echo chamber..
    This is a rather important qualifier to that "poll".
    ...AND feel they are not represented on...
    Which renders it essentially meaningless ;assuming it even exists).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,147
    edited June 2023
    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    Perhaps its the fabled "Blitz spirit" starting to emerge in these times of adversity... :D
    To reach full Blitz spirit we need food rationing, conscription and occasional air raids, then we can truly enjoy Brexit.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,388
    edited June 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    I sense a change, because the Tories are evidently about to be voted out.
    It is there, isn't it? A brightness in the eyes. Optimism about Britain. We are free and sovereign. BREXIT feels GOOD
    I gave this a Like because someone flagged it so I did it to counter balance.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    edited June 2023
    Ollie Pope is a real talent
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,388
    Off to enjoy the sunshine. Have a good afternoon PB :D
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    I sense a change, because the Tories are evidently about to be voted out.
    It is there, isn't it? A brightness in the eyes. Optimism about Britain. We are free and sovereign. BREXIT feels GOOD
    What's your tipple this lunchtime ?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961

    Brian Lara’s record’s going to fall today isn’t it?

    It would do except Stokes probably wants to win the match today.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    I've got a US road trip coming up for the Gazette, and I want to explore Virginia, Maryland maybe Kentucky, especially Civil War sites. Anyone got any recommendations? What are the most resonant battlefields? Gettysburg? Atietam?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    I sense a change, because the Tories are evidently about to be voted out.
    It is there, isn't it? A brightness in the eyes. Optimism about Britain. We are free and sovereign. BREXIT feels GOOD
    I feel good about the future of Britain under a Labour Government yes.
    You're more optimistic than me.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246

    GIN1138 said:

    On topic: Rishi's looking a bit fishy isn't he?

    What does he have to hide in these messages?

    Excellent question. I don't think it's the "keep things open, save the economy, who cares if a few oldies die" thing. That's pretty common knowledge and Rishi has presented it as a virtue.
    Clearly what they are trying to hide is highly relevant to the.enquiry,
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    I sense a change, because the Tories are evidently about to be voted out.
    It is there, isn't it? A brightness in the eyes. Optimism about Britain. We are free and sovereign. BREXIT feels GOOD
    I feel good about the future of Britain under a Labour Government yes.
    You're more optimistic than me.
    It's so shit now things only being a little better makes me feel optimistic
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,916
    Sandpit said:

    There’s Pope’s ton, do they wait for Duckett to get to 200 then declare?

    Declaring with a lead of less than 250 would be taking the piss slightly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    Leon said:

    I've got a US road trip coming up for the Gazette, and I want to explore Virginia, Maryland maybe Kentucky, especially Civil War sites. Anyone got any recommendations? What are the most resonant battlefields? Gettysburg? Atietam?

    Gettysburg well worth a visit, although not in any of the States you mention
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914
    edited June 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Am I alone in noticing a lightness of spirit in the nation, since Brexit? A kind of blitheness, even a sublimity of humour: we are free, and it is good, and the sun is shining

    Even the most curmudgeonly Remoaners are begging to turn to the light. Shyly smiling, even as they try not to. Shrugging awkwardly, but not unhappily. Saying, Yeah, OK, maybe Brexit was the right thing BUT DON'T MAKE ME SAY SORRY

    It's OK. We won't force you. You can thank us down the line

    I sense a change, because the Tories are evidently about to be voted out.
    It is there, isn't it? A brightness in the eyes. Optimism about Britain. We are free and sovereign. BREXIT feels GOOD
    Says someone who has spent most of this dreary year enjoying buckshee 5* opulence in sunnier climes.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,916
    edited June 2023
    Leon said:

    I've got a US road trip coming up for the Gazette, and I want to explore Virginia, Maryland maybe Kentucky, especially Civil War sites. Anyone got any recommendations? What are the most resonant battlefields? Gettysburg? Atietam?

    You could go to the made-up one on Trump's golf course.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_River_of_Blood_(monument)
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