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Biden continues to get stronger in the WH2024 betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,908
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:
    You must be quite adept at reading between the lines as I found nothing particularly unpleasant about the tweet. Will he be missed?
    The comment about his children is the nasty bit.
    Is it ?
    It could also be sympathetic, since she has children of her own. Hard to tell.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,758

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:
    You must be quite adept at reading between the lines as I found nothing particularly unpleasant about the tweet. Will he be missed?
    The comment about his children is the nasty bit.
    I assumed that was a comment made from experience rather than a barb.
    I'd have thought Jess Phillips of all people might realise that not everyone's experience is the same. I'm taking a wild guess here, but I reckon Raab's kids might go to private school, and even if they are in state school, it might be a bit different to the school that Phillips's kids go to.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,588
    edited May 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    148grss said:

    The issue with the Braverman story is that it is a misdemeanour lots of the public a) understand and b) have had to deal with themselves. So even if it is unimportant, which I would agree in the grand scheme of her failures and awfulness it is, it is comprehensible. People can ignore large scale policy failures / lies as more politics, or something beyond their ken. Speeding and then getting a civil servant to try and sort it out for her has cut through. It's like Johnson and the parties - bad covid policies had a worse impact, but people could shrug and go "well, I wouldn't have known what to do either, he tried his best, etc.". Having a party in the office when you weren't allowed outside the house to visit other people - simple.

    If the civil servant had "sorted" it for her, she'd have attended a speed awareness course. Seeing as they're all done over zoom these days she'd have been in precisely the same position as anyone else doing one. It would have gone down on her record as a course and she wouldn't have potentially been offered another one for 5 years. It's the same position any other 1st time speeder is in.

    I don't think people particularly care about the issue at hand here and are just judging Braverman on whether they like her or not.
    A policy that MPs and ministers found wanting on the truth and ethics front will be required to continue their careers in Rwanda for, say, 15 years might be a vote winner.

  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,982
    @Steven_Swinford

    Braverman allies are already issuing tacit warnings to PM over referring Braverman for investigation

    One said Sunak risks making a 'mountain out of a molehill' and that they hope Sunak sees that



    Rishi needs to tell Cruella and her "allies" to do one...
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,617

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile on topic

    My seemingly indestructible 88-yr old aunt with significant co-morbidities, bent in half, thin as a sheet of paper, albeit still whip smart and retains all her critical faculties, sent me a text yesterday. This from someone who doesn't go onto the internet and has never had a laptop or smartphone.

    Apparently her mobile provider is phasing out 3G phones at the end of 2024 and she is worried. Will she need to get a new phone.

    The point being that she needs to make it to the end of 2024 and worry about the phone later, and each month it becomes more challenging.

    Is the problem Joe Biden is facing. He may be fit to stand for POTUS now but in peoples' minds will be each successive year and his abilities.

    Quite. You look at him now and you inwardly wince. Ouch. He’s quite old. But he’ll probably make it though the day

    If he runs in 2024 he’s got to last to 2028 when he will be 86. It’s insane

    Have to say if I can do as well as Biden at his age, no problem. He is more effective than any recent president who apart from Trump were much younger than him.

    But he does have a problem, at least of perception, which means the Dems have a problem. More importantly the rest of us have a problem because the alternative to Biden is likely to be much, much worse than him, even if he is senile.
    I agree there's an issue, but it seems to be mostly ageism, for the reason you say. Objectively, Biden is a very effective President who sometimes misspeaks. Because he's old, people wonder if he's senile, but actually it's a habit he's had for many years, and in the round it really doesn't matter.

    So yes, there may be an electability issue if there's a strong challenger. But there probably shouldn't be. The system, for all its failings, has produced a pretty good President.
    Nick, I cant help but think you were one of those who mocked Reagan for his age.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,031
    Anyone watch Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland last night? Looks set to be as good as it’s predecessor on Iraq.

    A minor point: I yield to no one in my disparagement of David Cameron, but the clip of his apology for Bloody Sunday should serve as a model for a full and gracious atonement.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,982
    @Steven_Swinford

    A senior Tory MP on the right of the party is more blunt:

    'He cannot afford to get rid of her

    'Even though she’s s*** she will machinegun him from the back benches. It will look like he’s sided with the doves'
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,736
    edited May 2023

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile on topic

    My seemingly indestructible 88-yr old aunt with significant co-morbidities, bent in half, thin as a sheet of paper, albeit still whip smart and retains all her critical faculties sent me a text yesterday. This from someone who doesn't go onto the internet and has not laptop/smartphone, etc so quite a technophobe or a techno never bothered with it.

    Apparently her mobile provider is phasing out 3G phones at the end of 2024 and she is worried. Will she need to get a new phone.

    The point being that she needs to make it to the end of 2024 and worry about the phone later, and each month it becomes more challenging.

    Is the problem Joe Biden is facing. He may be fit to stand for POTUS now but in peoples' minds will be each successive year and his abilities.

    A weird obsession with his age and mental faculty here on pb. If he was facing a 45 year old it would be an issue. But he is facing a man who was delighted to have aced a really tough memory test back in 2020.

    The questions?

    "The fifth-to-last question on the test asks you to repeat a sentence out loud, before naming as many words as you can starting with F. In the following “abstraction” section, you have to spot the similarity between different objects such as trains and bicycles (modes of transport), or a watch and a ruler (measuring devices).

    Next, you have to recall the random words that were included in the earlier memory section. This may be the part that’s easiest to trip over. And finally, for the orientation part of the test, you have to … say what the date is."
    You think age has no bearing on peoples' ability? I'm sure you have relatives who were absolutely on the ball up until and through, say, their 80s (it will differ for everyone, might be earlier, might be later) and then dramatically deteriorated both in physical and mental energy. It is a factor over 80 imo and people are not illogical to think about it.

    Will it disqualify him from running or winning? Of course not. But it is a factor that will influence some, perhaps many people.

    If he was 45yrs old I would have plenty of issues with his performance and ability but age-related deterioration would not be one of them.
    The point is that if Biden (old) is facing a 45-year-old, age is an issue. If Biden (old) faces Trump (old) then not so much.
    It’s quite amazing that both parties in the US appear to think that an octogenarian can be the best candidate, for one of the most stressful jobs in the country.

    It may be a job they’ve both done before, but there have to be younger people out there who are more suitable.
    Yes but for betting purposes, therein lies a trap. Bookmakers will pay out on whoever wins, not on whoever should have won in a more rational world. It is not enough to say that Senator X or Governor Y would be a better candidate or president; even if we are right (and we probably are) we also need to identify a path to that position.
    Indeed. I think it’s going to start to dawn on both parties, as the actual primary season draws closer, of the need to choose someone younger. Perhaps there will be some polling that says something about age of the candidate. It could end up as a prisoner’s dilemma, with the rewards coming to the party that makes the switch to the younger candidate. Of course, picking a specific candidate is more difficult than looking at a generic one.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,763
    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @JohnRentoul

    Braverman asked and the civil servants said no: minor breach. Her special adviser misled a journalist: major breach

    what did the spad do/say to the journalist?
    ...
    Isn't a speed awareness course designed to prevent you from being "done for speeding"?
    You'll be shocked to learn that "done for" is not a legal term of art. However, in this context, most would argue she was "done" by the speed camera and had a choice of punishment. She could have chosen the course but instead chose the points. She could also have chosen to contest the being "done" in a Magistrates Court but sensibly decided against it.
    The magistrates Court might have been a better option. "I plead not guilty and if any of you expect to be sitting at this bench tomorrow, you'd better agree with me" might have worked
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    LeonLeon Posts: 51,187
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,982

    The magistrates Court might have been a better option. "I plead not guilty and if any of you expect to be sitting at this bench tomorrow, you'd better agree with me" might have worked

    Instead of abusing her position as a Cabinet Minister she should have abused her position as Home Secretary instead...
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    LeonLeon Posts: 51,187
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Back at you , you tragic Brexiteer arseface.
    Fair
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,908
    Interesting thread.

    https://twitter.com/MattLightCrim/status/1660862035314311168
    Recent events are focusing attention on Russia's Belgorod oblast, a region with a strong connection to Ukraine that I visited for doctoral dissertation research in 2005 and 2006. A few thoughts on Belgorod and another Russian region with links to Ukraine, Krasnodarskii Krai.

    ...Belgorod has an interesting past on the margins between the Muscovite state and historically Ukrainian regions. Its population has a mixed Russian and Ukrainian background. When I visited, I met a few people from rural backgrounds who spoke a Ukrainian dialect.

    ...I don't know how many people there are now; presumably many fewer than in the past. Belgorod was nearly included in modern Ukraine but was ultimately assigned to the Russian Federation, where (at least after the 1920s) Ukrainian was not taught in schools and was stigmatized...

    ...A somewhat similar pattern prevails in Krasnodarskii Krai, with the significant difference that the region's original inhabitants, the Circassian people, were largely massacred and ethnically cleansed during Russian imperial conquest in the 19th century...


    Worth reading the whole thread, as it gives another context to the claims about eastern Ukraine being "essentially Russian" etc.

    The Circassian genocide was something I didn't know about.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide
    The Circassian genocide, or Tsitsekun, was the Russian Empire's systematic mass murder, ethnic cleansing, and expulsion of 80–97% of the Circassian population, around 800,000–1,500,000 people, during and after the Russo-Circassian War (1763–1864)...
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,982
    Leon said:

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence

    It is canonical to say history is written by the winners, but with brexit the 'win' is such an epic failure that the 'winners' best hope is to be forgotten
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,031
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Crinkly bottomed supporters of Brexit see the term Brexiteer as dashing and edgy, while Brexiter reveals the reality of M&S slacks and mild xenophobia.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,763
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Beautiful written. Have you thought of a career as a writer?
  • Options
    I can't really get excited about the Braverman speeding fiasco. If she'd tried to get out of the fine/points then it'd be a different kettle of fish, but it appears it was a clumsy attempt to avoid taking an awareness course with the great unwashed, rhat turned into a bit of tit for tat point scoring and grassing up. I despise the current government, but this ain't really an issue for me.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 11,138
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Oh the irony from someone who uses the term Remoaner.

    Remoaner is a clear insult. To anyone not paranoid Brexiteer or Brexiter is just a different spelling of the same thing. You really do live in a little paranoid world of your own if you think most people have a clue it has some different meaning to other than 3 people in this world.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 51,187

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile on topic

    My seemingly indestructible 88-yr old aunt with significant co-morbidities, bent in half, thin as a sheet of paper, albeit still whip smart and retains all her critical faculties, sent me a text yesterday. This from someone who doesn't go onto the internet and has never had a laptop or smartphone.

    Apparently her mobile provider is phasing out 3G phones at the end of 2024 and she is worried. Will she need to get a new phone.

    The point being that she needs to make it to the end of 2024 and worry about the phone later, and each month it becomes more challenging.

    Is the problem Joe Biden is facing. He may be fit to stand for POTUS now but in peoples' minds will be each successive year and his abilities.

    Quite. You look at him now and you inwardly wince. Ouch. He’s quite old. But he’ll probably make it though the day

    If he runs in 2024 he’s got to last to 2028 when he will be 86. It’s insane

    Have to say if I can do as well as Biden at his age, no problem. He is more effective than any recent president who apart from Trump were much younger than him.

    But he does have a problem, at least of perception, which means the Dems have a problem. More importantly the rest of us have a problem because the alternative to Biden is likely to be much, much worse than him, even if he is senile.
    I agree there's an issue, but it seems to be mostly ageism, for the reason you say. Objectively, Biden is a very effective President who sometimes misspeaks. Because he's old, people wonder if he's senile, but actually it's a habit he's had for many years, and in the round it really doesn't matter.

    So yes, there may be an electability issue if there's a strong challenger. But there probably shouldn't be. The system, for all its failings, has produced a pretty good President.
    Nick, I cant help but think you were one of those who mocked Reagan for his age.
    It’s also not true that he’s always been hesitant and rambling in his speech. I listened to a clip of him from about 2002 yesterday. Firm, eloquent, vigorous, lucid. The contrast is striking and melancholy. He is in obvious cognitive decline and it WILL be an issue

    My hunch is that he will stand and win, just about defeating Trump, but he will “retire” soon after for health reasons. So the VP pick really matters
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,554
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:
    You must be quite adept at reading between the lines as I found nothing particularly unpleasant about the tweet. Will he be missed?
    The comment about his children is the nasty bit.
    Is it ?
    It could also be sympathetic, since she has children of her own. Hard to tell.
    The fact people read it as a dig rather than sympathetic I think says more about them then about Jess.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 11,138
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:
    You must be quite adept at reading between the lines as I found nothing particularly unpleasant about the tweet. Will he be missed?
    The comment about his children is the nasty bit.
    Is it ?
    It could also be sympathetic, since she has children of her own. Hard to tell.
    Yes I thought the same and nearly posted as such. I pretty much respect @tlg86 judgement on stuff, but wasn't convinced on this one.
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    StereodogStereodog Posts: 485
    On the Suella Braverman thing the precise wording of those emails will make all the difference. It really shouldn’t be a difficult investigation.

    If she just asked a civil servant to explore whether an option to attend in private was available and concluded that there wasn’t then I think she’s safe. That’s just asking staff to do your research for you.

    If she asked civil servants to try and lean on people to create an exception for her then it seems to be a clear breach of the ministerial code.
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    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    That does sound a tiny bit paranoid tbh. I get it though, you've found your angle for debate today and you're sticking to it (albeit with a bit of quisling playing-the-mannery about it).
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 51,187
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Oh the irony from someone who uses the term Remoaner.

    Remoaner is a clear insult. To anyone not paranoid Brexiteer or Brexiter is just a different spelling of the same thing. You really do live in a little paranoid world of your own if you think most people have a clue it has some different meaning to other than 3 people in this world.
    No, I’m just a lot smarter than you - and more aware of linguistic nuance


    “On 14 June, a short email popped up in the inboxes of all Financial Times editorial staff. It came from the paper’s style guru and announced tersely: ‘The out campaigners should be Brexiters, not Brexiteers.’ As usual for the FT’s style pronouncements, the memo did not lay out the reasoning behind the decision, but it followed a discussion among editors over whether the word ‘Brexiteer’ had connotations of swashbuckling adventure.”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/victory-of-the-swashbucklers/
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,733

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile on topic

    My seemingly indestructible 88-yr old aunt with significant co-morbidities, bent in half, thin as a sheet of paper, albeit still whip smart and retains all her critical faculties, sent me a text yesterday. This from someone who doesn't go onto the internet and has never had a laptop or smartphone.

    Apparently her mobile provider is phasing out 3G phones at the end of 2024 and she is worried. Will she need to get a new phone.

    The point being that she needs to make it to the end of 2024 and worry about the phone later, and each month it becomes more challenging.

    Is the problem Joe Biden is facing. He may be fit to stand for POTUS now but in peoples' minds will be each successive year and his abilities.

    Quite. You look at him now and you inwardly wince. Ouch. He’s quite old. But he’ll probably make it though the day

    If he runs in 2024 he’s got to last to 2028 when he will be 86. It’s insane

    Have to say if I can do as well as Biden at his age, no problem. He is more effective than any recent president who apart from Trump were much younger than him.

    But he does have a problem, at least of perception, which means the Dems have a problem. More importantly the rest of us have a problem because the alternative to Biden is likely to be much, much worse than him, even if he is senile.
    I agree there's an issue, but it seems to be mostly ageism, for the reason you say. Objectively, Biden is a very effective President who sometimes misspeaks. Because he's old, people wonder if he's senile, but actually it's a habit he's had for many years, and in the round it really doesn't matter.

    So yes, there may be an electability issue if there's a strong challenger. But there probably shouldn't be. The system, for all its failings, has produced a pretty good President.
    It certainly is ageism. The last acceptable prejudice, sadly. Good on Biden, hope he wins.

    He should be an inspiration to those of us like me who dream of retiring at 55.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,908
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile on topic

    My seemingly indestructible 88-yr old aunt with significant co-morbidities, bent in half, thin as a sheet of paper, albeit still whip smart and retains all her critical faculties sent me a text yesterday. This from someone who doesn't go onto the internet and has not laptop/smartphone, etc so quite a technophobe or a techno never bothered with it.

    Apparently her mobile provider is phasing out 3G phones at the end of 2024 and she is worried. Will she need to get a new phone.

    The point being that she needs to make it to the end of 2024 and worry about the phone later, and each month it becomes more challenging.

    Is the problem Joe Biden is facing. He may be fit to stand for POTUS now but in peoples' minds will be each successive year and his abilities.

    A weird obsession with his age and mental faculty here on pb. If he was facing a 45 year old it would be an issue. But he is facing a man who was delighted to have aced a really tough memory test back in 2020.

    The questions?

    "The fifth-to-last question on the test asks you to repeat a sentence out loud, before naming as many words as you can starting with F. In the following “abstraction” section, you have to spot the similarity between different objects such as trains and bicycles (modes of transport), or a watch and a ruler (measuring devices).

    Next, you have to recall the random words that were included in the earlier memory section. This may be the part that’s easiest to trip over. And finally, for the orientation part of the test, you have to … say what the date is."
    You think age has no bearing on peoples' ability? I'm sure you have relatives who were absolutely on the ball up until and through, say, their 80s (it will differ for everyone, might be earlier, might be later) and then dramatically deteriorated both in physical and mental energy. It is a factor over 80 imo and people are not illogical to think about it.

    Will it disqualify him from running or winning? Of course not. But it is a factor that will influence some, perhaps many people.

    If he was 45yrs old I would have plenty of issues with his performance and ability but age-related deterioration would not be one of them.
    The point is that if Biden (old) is facing a 45-year-old, age is an issue. If Biden (old) faces Trump (old) then not so much.
    It’s quite amazing that both parties in the US appear to think that an octogenarian can be the best candidate, for one of the most stressful jobs in the country.

    It may be a job they’ve both done before, but there have to be younger people out there who are more suitable.
    Yes but for betting purposes, therein lies a trap. Bookmakers will pay out on whoever wins, not on whoever should have won in a more rational world. It is not enough to say that Senator X or Governor Y would be a better candidate or president; even if we are right (and we probably are) we also need to identify a path to that position.
    Indeed. I think it’s going to start to dawn on both parties, as the actual primary season draws closer, of the need to choose someone younger. Perhaps there will be some polling that says something about age of the candidate. It could end up as a prisoner’s dilemma, with the rewards coming to the party that makes the switch to the younger candidate. Of course, picking a specific candidate is more difficult than looking at a generic one.
    Unless Biden shows serious ageing problems over the next year, that's highly unlikely on the part of the Democrats. It's near impossible to successfully challenge a sitting President, if they're doing a reasonable job in office.
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    One of the main problems with Bravermanspeedingoneononetrainingethicscivilservantsadvicegivenornotgate is that it is so fucking boring

    All we need to know is that a senior Tory tried to get out of what the rest of us would have to do. It only needs an attention span of ten seconds or so.
    She tried to get out of doing a speed awareness course as part of a group in favour of doing a speed awareness course as an individual, something which many prominent people do. Big deal. And nor do I really care whether she initially tried to involve a civil service aide or not.

    I cannot for the life of me see what electoral benefit Labour gets from pursuing this, at the expense of all the other meaningful things they should be concentrating on. Even if she goes, it would be a case of replacing an unpopular minister with someone potentially less obnoxious, be careful what you wish for.

    The only meat in the story is that the circumstances and timing of it all coming out indicates a move by Sunak to bring her to heel.
    It’s all revenge for Brexit
    There was me thinking you would never outdo yourself on the Liz Truss will surprise on the upside stakes.

    Well done.
    Beat me to it and with a wittier comment as well. I mean really digging the depths there @Leon. Paranoia on stilts.
    Mark my words, within a decade people will rather admit to bestiality than admit to voting for Brexit.

    Leon’s paranoia is an early indication of that.
    Those who voted either way voted for something most people didn't want. There would have been a clear majority for a reformed EU offering serious two sided derogations to the UK for very good reasons.

    If Remain had won we would be in a political turmoil, but a different one, because the democratic deficit would not have gone away.

    And UKIP would probably be in Government.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 51,187
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    That does sound a tiny bit paranoid tbh. I get it though, you've found your angle for debate today and you're sticking to it (albeit with a bit of quisling playing-the-mannery about it).
    No, I’m simply right. Yet again
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,645

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    How can they remain when weve left ? They're like the League of Empire Loyalist trying to turn back the clock to a world that has disappeared.
    It became "The Commonwealth" in 1931.
    I think youll find the LEL were thinking more in terms of 1899
    Trying to revive the British Empire, 25 years after the Dominions were granted independence, was always a bit pointless.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    That does sound a tiny bit paranoid tbh. I get it though, you've found your angle for debate today and you're sticking to it (albeit with a bit of quisling playing-the-mannery about it).
    No, I’m simply right. Yet again
    Of course you are, lad. Well done.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,733
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:
    You must be quite adept at reading between the lines as I found nothing particularly unpleasant about the tweet. Will he be missed?
    The comment about his children is the nasty bit.
    Is it ?
    It could also be sympathetic, since she has children of her own. Hard to tell.
    The fact people read it as a dig rather than sympathetic I think says more about them then about Jess.
    Indeed the OP by @tlg86 was horribly miscued.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting thread.

    https://twitter.com/MattLightCrim/status/1660862035314311168
    Recent events are focusing attention on Russia's Belgorod oblast, a region with a strong connection to Ukraine that I visited for doctoral dissertation research in 2005 and 2006. A few thoughts on Belgorod and another Russian region with links to Ukraine, Krasnodarskii Krai.

    ...Belgorod has an interesting past on the margins between the Muscovite state and historically Ukrainian regions. Its population has a mixed Russian and Ukrainian background. When I visited, I met a few people from rural backgrounds who spoke a Ukrainian dialect.

    ...I don't know how many people there are now; presumably many fewer than in the past. Belgorod was nearly included in modern Ukraine but was ultimately assigned to the Russian Federation, where (at least after the 1920s) Ukrainian was not taught in schools and was stigmatized...

    ...A somewhat similar pattern prevails in Krasnodarskii Krai, with the significant difference that the region's original inhabitants, the Circassian people, were largely massacred and ethnically cleansed during Russian imperial conquest in the 19th century...


    Worth reading the whole thread, as it gives another context to the claims about eastern Ukraine being "essentially Russian" etc.

    The Circassian genocide was something I didn't know about.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide
    The Circassian genocide, or Tsitsekun, was the Russian Empire's systematic mass murder, ethnic cleansing, and expulsion of 80–97% of the Circassian population, around 800,000–1,500,000 people, during and after the Russo-Circassian War (1763–1864)...

    Boris Johnson's Turkish ancestor was one of those enslaved Circassians.

    And in the film Lawrence of Arabia didn't Lawrence claim to be a Circassian after being arrested by the Turks ?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,774
    The International Monetary Fund said on Tuesday that it no longer expects Britain's economy will fall into a recession this year, upgrading forecasts that it published last month.

    The IMF said British gross domestic product was set to grow by 0.4% in 2023. In April, it forecast a contraction of 0.3%.


    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/imf-says-uk-no-longer-heading-recession-2023-2023-05-23/
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,645
    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    One of the main problems with Bravermanspeedingoneononetrainingethicscivilservantsadvicegivenornotgate is that it is so fucking boring

    All we need to know is that a senior Tory tried to get out of what the rest of us would have to do. It only needs an attention span of ten seconds or so.
    She tried to get out of doing a speed awareness course as part of a group in favour of doing a speed awareness course as an individual, something which many prominent people do. Big deal. And nor do I really care whether she initially tried to involve a civil service aide or not.

    I cannot for the life of me see what electoral benefit Labour gets from pursuing this, at the expense of all the other meaningful things they should be concentrating on. Even if she goes, it would be a case of replacing an unpopular minister with someone potentially less obnoxious, be careful what you wish for.

    The only meat in the story is that the circumstances and timing of it all coming out indicates a move by Sunak to bring her to heel.
    It’s all revenge for Brexit
    There was me thinking you would never outdo yourself on the Liz Truss will surprise on the upside stakes.

    Well done.
    Beat me to it and with a wittier comment as well. I mean really digging the depths there @Leon. Paranoia on stilts.
    Mark my words, within a decade people will rather admit to bestiality than admit to voting for Brexit.

    Leon’s paranoia is an early indication of that.
    Those who voted either way voted for something most people didn't want. There would have been a clear majority for a reformed EU offering serious two sided derogations to the UK for very good reasons.

    If Remain had won we would be in a political turmoil, but a different one, because the democratic deficit would not have gone away.

    I’ve no regrets at all about voting Leave.

    The fact that we have a crappy government is a separate issue.

  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 11,138
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Oh the irony from someone who uses the term Remoaner.

    Remoaner is a clear insult. To anyone not paranoid Brexiteer or Brexiter is just a different spelling of the same thing. You really do live in a little paranoid world of your own if you think most people have a clue it has some different meaning to other than 3 people in this world.
    No, I’m just a lot smarter than you - and more aware of linguistic nuance


    “On 14 June, a short email popped up in the inboxes of all Financial Times editorial staff. It came from the paper’s style guru and announced tersely: ‘The out campaigners should be Brexiters, not Brexiteers.’ As usual for the FT’s style pronouncements, the memo did not lay out the reasoning behind the decision, but it followed a discussion among editors over whether the word ‘Brexiteer’ had connotations of swashbuckling adventure.”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/victory-of-the-swashbucklers/
    And we are back to where we always go when you lose an argument:

    a) I'm smarter than you
    b) You are gay (a weird one)
    c) You are boring

    So so predictable.

    Note you missed the whole point of the post which is the vast majority of people do not know the difference between Brexiter and Brexiteer. Not so smart eh that you can't understand a simple post?
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,462

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    One of the main problems with Bravermanspeedingoneononetrainingethicscivilservantsadvicegivenornotgate is that it is so fucking boring

    All we need to know is that a senior Tory tried to get out of what the rest of us would have to do. It only needs an attention span of ten seconds or so.
    She tried to get out of doing a speed awareness course as part of a group in favour of doing a speed awareness course as an individual, something which many prominent people do. Big deal. And nor do I really care whether she initially tried to involve a civil service aide or not.

    I cannot for the life of me see what electoral benefit Labour gets from pursuing this, at the expense of all the other meaningful things they should be concentrating on. Even if she goes, it would be a case of replacing an unpopular minister with someone potentially less obnoxious, be careful what you wish for.

    The only meat in the story is that the circumstances and timing of it all coming out indicates a move by Sunak to bring her to heel.
    It’s all revenge for Brexit
    There was me thinking you would never outdo yourself on the Liz Truss will surprise on the upside stakes.

    Well done.
    Beat me to it and with a wittier comment as well. I mean really digging the depths there @Leon. Paranoia on stilts.
    Mark my words, within a decade people will rather admit to bestiality than admit to voting for Brexit.

    Leon’s paranoia is an early indication of that.
    Those who voted either way voted for something most people didn't want. There would have been a clear majority for a reformed EU offering serious two sided derogations to the UK for very good reasons.

    If Remain had won we would be in a political turmoil, but a different one, because the democratic deficit would not have gone away.

    And UKIP would probably be in Government.
    UKIP was never going to be in government. But it could have taken enough votes from the Tories to have put Labour in government. The Brexit vote was all about defending the Tory party - party before country, as is always the way with them.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 51,187
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Oh the irony from someone who uses the term Remoaner.

    Remoaner is a clear insult. To anyone not paranoid Brexiteer or Brexiter is just a different spelling of the same thing. You really do live in a little paranoid world of your own if you think most people have a clue it has some different meaning to other than 3 people in this world.
    No, I’m just a lot smarter than you - and more aware of linguistic nuance


    “On 14 June, a short email popped up in the inboxes of all Financial Times editorial staff. It came from the paper’s style guru and announced tersely: ‘The out campaigners should be Brexiters, not Brexiteers.’ As usual for the FT’s style pronouncements, the memo did not lay out the reasoning behind the decision, but it followed a discussion among editors over whether the word ‘Brexiteer’ had connotations of swashbuckling adventure.”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/victory-of-the-swashbucklers/
    And we are back to where we always go when you lose an argument:

    a) I'm smarter than you
    b) You are gay (a weird one)
    c) You are boring

    So so predictable.

    Note you missed the whole point of the post which is the vast majority of people do not know the difference between Brexiter and Brexiteer. Not so smart eh that you can't understand a simple post?
    But I’m right and you’re wrong and this was a real issue, which you missed because you’re less intelligent

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 51,187
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    That does sound a tiny bit paranoid tbh. I get it though, you've found your angle for debate today and you're sticking to it (albeit with a bit of quisling playing-the-mannery about it).
    No, I’m simply right. Yet again
    Of course you are, lad. Well done.
    Thanks. It’s all I ask for. A simple acknowledgment
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,588
    edited May 2023

    The International Monetary Fund said on Tuesday that it no longer expects Britain's economy will fall into a recession this year, upgrading forecasts that it published last month.

    The IMF said British gross domestic product was set to grow by 0.4% in 2023. In April, it forecast a contraction of 0.3%.


    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/imf-says-uk-no-longer-heading-recession-2023-2023-05-23/

    And we only borrowed £25 billion in April.
    About £800 per Income Tax payer.
    In one month.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,908
    Deputy union sues over investigation into Sheriff’s Department gangs, order to show tattoos
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-05-22/deputy-union-sues-over-investigation-into-sheriffs-department-gangs-order-to-show-gang-tattoos
    ...late Monday, the Assn. for Los Angeles Deputy Sheriffs filed suit, arguing that ordering deputies to cooperate with the inspector general’s investigation and show their tattoos was unconstitutional, and would violate the 4th Amendment’s ban on unreasonable searches as well as the 5th Amendment’s protection against self-incrimination and the right to privacy under California’s constitution..

    ...The Sheriff’s Department has long faced allegations about secretive deputy groups running amok in certain stations and jails, controlling command staff and promoting a culture of violence. A Loyola Marymount University report released in 2021 identified 18 such groups that have existed over the last five decades, including the Executioners and the Banditos.

    Members of the former are alleged to sport tattoos of a skull with Nazi imagery and an AK-47, while members of the latter are allegedly known for their matching tattoos of a skeleton outfitted with a sombrero, bandoleer and pistol.

    After years of investigations, studies and lawsuits, on May 12 Huntsman’s office sent letters to 35 deputies suspected of being members of either the Executioners, an alleged deputy gang that operates out of the Compton station, or the Banditos, which operates out of the East L.A. station...
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,021
    Stereodog said:

    On the Suella Braverman thing the precise wording of those emails will make all the difference. It really shouldn’t be a difficult investigation.

    If she just asked a civil servant to explore whether an option to attend in private was available and concluded that there wasn’t then I think she’s safe. That’s just asking staff to do your research for you.

    If she asked civil servants to try and lean on people to create an exception for her then it seems to be a clear breach of the ministerial code.

    My reading is as follows

    SB: Can you arrange me a private course, going in with the masses is going to be a real embarrassment and half of them will hate me.
    CS: No, Fuck off SB that's not my job. Arrange your own bloody course.
    SB: Sighs, walks off take points.

    A bit embarrassing but not a breach of the code.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,368
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    That does sound a tiny bit paranoid tbh. I get it though, you've found your angle for debate today and you're sticking to it (albeit with a bit of quisling playing-the-mannery about it).
    Brexiter does sound a bit odd.
    Brexiteer began, I think, slightly pejoratively - with 'Leaver' (cf Remainer) the neutral term.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,908
    edited May 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    Stereodog said:

    On the Suella Braverman thing the precise wording of those emails will make all the difference. It really shouldn’t be a difficult investigation.

    If she just asked a civil servant to explore whether an option to attend in private was available and concluded that there wasn’t then I think she’s safe. That’s just asking staff to do your research for you.

    If she asked civil servants to try and lean on people to create an exception for her then it seems to be a clear breach of the ministerial code.

    My reading is as follows

    SB: Can you arrange me a private course, going in with the masses is going to be a real embarrassment and half of them will hate me.
    CS: No, Fuck off SB that's not my job. Arrange your own bloody course.
    SB: Sighs, walks off take points.

    A bit embarrassing but not a breach of the code.
    If ti were so simple, why did she not say so in the Commons ?
    Instead she repeated, several times in response to direct questions, a carefully crafted non-denial denial.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,031
    Nigelb said:

    Deputy union sues over investigation into Sheriff’s Department gangs, order to show tattoos
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-05-22/deputy-union-sues-over-investigation-into-sheriffs-department-gangs-order-to-show-gang-tattoos
    ...late Monday, the Assn. for Los Angeles Deputy Sheriffs filed suit, arguing that ordering deputies to cooperate with the inspector general’s investigation and show their tattoos was unconstitutional, and would violate the 4th Amendment’s ban on unreasonable searches as well as the 5th Amendment’s protection against self-incrimination and the right to privacy under California’s constitution..

    ...The Sheriff’s Department has long faced allegations about secretive deputy groups running amok in certain stations and jails, controlling command staff and promoting a culture of violence. A Loyola Marymount University report released in 2021 identified 18 such groups that have existed over the last five decades, including the Executioners and the Banditos.

    Members of the former are alleged to sport tattoos of a skull with Nazi imagery and an AK-47, while members of the latter are allegedly known for their matching tattoos of a skeleton outfitted with a sombrero, bandoleer and pistol.

    After years of investigations, studies and lawsuits, on May 12 Huntsman’s office sent letters to 35 deputies suspected of being members of either the Executioners, an alleged deputy gang that operates out of the Compton station, or the Banditos, which operates out of the East L.A. station...

    If they’re fired, there’s always an exciting (if short) career in the Wagner Group waiting for them.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,736
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Oh the irony from someone who uses the term Remoaner.

    Remoaner is a clear insult. To anyone not paranoid Brexiteer or Brexiter is just a different spelling of the same thing. You really do live in a little paranoid world of your own if you think most people have a clue it has some different meaning to other than 3 people in this world.
    No, I’m just a lot smarter than you - and more aware of linguistic nuance


    “On 14 June, a short email popped up in the inboxes of all Financial Times editorial staff. It came from the paper’s style guru and announced tersely: ‘The out campaigners should be Brexiters, not Brexiteers.’ As usual for the FT’s style pronouncements, the memo did not lay out the reasoning behind the decision, but it followed a discussion among editors over whether the word ‘Brexiteer’ had connotations of swashbuckling adventure.”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/victory-of-the-swashbucklers/
    That’s a really interesting piece about political language.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,085
    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @JohnRentoul

    Braverman asked and the civil servants said no: minor breach. Her special adviser misled a journalist: major breach

    what did the spad do/say to the journalist?
    ...
    Isn't a speed awareness course designed to prevent you from being "done for speeding"?
    You'll be shocked to learn that "done for" is not a legal term of art. However, in this context, most would argue she was "done" by the speed camera and had a choice of punishment. She could have chosen the course but instead chose the points. She could also have chosen to contest the being "done" in a Magistrates Court but sensibly decided against it.
    Surely - and I know YAAL - the course is not a punishment (capital P) but an alternative to points, which would be the punishment?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,736

    The International Monetary Fund said on Tuesday that it no longer expects Britain's economy will fall into a recession this year, upgrading forecasts that it published last month.

    The IMF said British gross domestic product was set to grow by 0.4% in 2023. In April, it forecast a contraction of 0.3%.


    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/imf-says-uk-no-longer-heading-recession-2023-2023-05-23/

    How does anyone take their forecasts seriously, if they can issue such huge month-on-month revisions to current-year estimates?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821
    Pulpstar said:

    Stereodog said:

    On the Suella Braverman thing the precise wording of those emails will make all the difference. It really shouldn’t be a difficult investigation.

    If she just asked a civil servant to explore whether an option to attend in private was available and concluded that there wasn’t then I think she’s safe. That’s just asking staff to do your research for you.

    If she asked civil servants to try and lean on people to create an exception for her then it seems to be a clear breach of the ministerial code.

    My reading is as follows

    SB: Can you arrange me a private course, going in with the masses is going to be a real embarrassment and half of them will hate me.
    CS: No, Fuck off SB that's not my job. Arrange your own bloody course.
    SB: Sighs, walks off take points.

    A bit embarrassing but not a breach of the code.
    So she took the points rather than go on the course ?

    And why didn't she ask a spad, other lackey or husband to research the issue ?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 51,187
    Cookie said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    That does sound a tiny bit paranoid tbh. I get it though, you've found your angle for debate today and you're sticking to it (albeit with a bit of quisling playing-the-mannery about it).
    Brexiter does sound a bit odd.
    Brexiteer began, I think, slightly pejoratively - with 'Leaver' (cf Remainer) the neutral term.
    That spectator piece (by Remainer BBC journo Ian Katz) is well worth reading on the important etymology of these terms. Remainers were painfully aware that “Remainer” itself was a bad ugly word, making them sound sad, but they could never find an alternative
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,085
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 51,187
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Oh the irony from someone who uses the term Remoaner.

    Remoaner is a clear insult. To anyone not paranoid Brexiteer or Brexiter is just a different spelling of the same thing. You really do live in a little paranoid world of your own if you think most people have a clue it has some different meaning to other than 3 people in this world.
    No, I’m just a lot smarter than you - and more aware of linguistic nuance


    “On 14 June, a short email popped up in the inboxes of all Financial Times editorial staff. It came from the paper’s style guru and announced tersely: ‘The out campaigners should be Brexiters, not Brexiteers.’ As usual for the FT’s style pronouncements, the memo did not lay out the reasoning behind the decision, but it followed a discussion among editors over whether the word ‘Brexiteer’ had connotations of swashbuckling adventure.”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/victory-of-the-swashbucklers/
    That’s a really interesting piece about political language.
    It is. I know the writer. Intelligent man
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,085
    edited May 2023

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:
    You must be quite adept at reading between the lines as I found nothing particularly unpleasant about the tweet. Will he be missed?
    The comment about his children is the nasty bit.
    Is it ?
    It could also be sympathetic, since she has children of her own. Hard to tell.
    The fact people read it as a dig rather than sympathetic I think says more about them then about Jess.
    Indeed the OP by @tlg86 was horribly miscued.
    Why on earth bring someone's children into the political/twitter domain? They should be wholly out of bounds, unless paraded on the running board of a 1925 Rolls Royce phantom by their parents for some kind of intended political gain.

    I have no idea whether she meant well but I read it as passive/aggressive.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821
    algarkirk said:

    The International Monetary Fund said on Tuesday that it no longer expects Britain's economy will fall into a recession this year, upgrading forecasts that it published last month.

    The IMF said British gross domestic product was set to grow by 0.4% in 2023. In April, it forecast a contraction of 0.3%.


    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/imf-says-uk-no-longer-heading-recession-2023-2023-05-23/

    And we only borrowed £25 billion in April.
    About £800 per Income Tax payer.
    In one month.

    It varies month to month - we're not getting £300bn of borrowing this year.

    But together with the trade deficit it does illustrate how the country continually lives beyond its means and specifically over consumes.

    Yet the media is full of stories of every group demanding another handout, another subsidy, another tax cut and other pay rise.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,428
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Spain wants to ban end-to-end encryption for hundreds of millions of people within the European Union, according to a leaked document "that reveals strong support among EU member states for proposals to scan private messages for illegal content."
    https://twitter.com/KimZetter/status/1660740980650409984

    Where does the UK stand on such things these days ?

    Just as bad. Politicians everywhere are trying to repeal the laws of maths and physics.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/feb/24/signal-app-warns-it-will-quit-uk-if-law-weakens-end-to-end-encryption
    “The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia,” said Turnbull.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,021
    edited May 2023

    Pulpstar said:

    Stereodog said:

    On the Suella Braverman thing the precise wording of those emails will make all the difference. It really shouldn’t be a difficult investigation.

    If she just asked a civil servant to explore whether an option to attend in private was available and concluded that there wasn’t then I think she’s safe. That’s just asking staff to do your research for you.

    If she asked civil servants to try and lean on people to create an exception for her then it seems to be a clear breach of the ministerial code.

    My reading is as follows

    SB: Can you arrange me a private course, going in with the masses is going to be a real embarrassment and half of them will hate me.
    CS: No, Fuck off SB that's not my job. Arrange your own bloody course.
    SB: Sighs, walks off take points.

    A bit embarrassing but not a breach of the code.
    So she took the points rather than go on the course ?

    And why didn't she ask a spad, other lackey or husband to research the issue ?
    I have no idea. If Rishi had anything about him he'd ask her that directly rather than farming it off to an "ethics advisor".
    My guess is she sees senior civil servants as a PA of sorts (Which is wrong but not code-breaking). Her SPAD doesn't seem very good - aren't they supposed to advise rather than get their minister further into the shit :D
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,085
    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    One of the main problems with Bravermanspeedingoneononetrainingethicscivilservantsadvicegivenornotgate is that it is so fucking boring

    All we need to know is that a senior Tory tried to get out of what the rest of us would have to do. It only needs an attention span of ten seconds or so.
    She tried to get out of doing a speed awareness course as part of a group in favour of doing a speed awareness course as an individual, something which many prominent people do. Big deal. And nor do I really care whether she initially tried to involve a civil service aide or not.

    I cannot for the life of me see what electoral benefit Labour gets from pursuing this, at the expense of all the other meaningful things they should be concentrating on. Even if she goes, it would be a case of replacing an unpopular minister with someone potentially less obnoxious, be careful what you wish for.

    The only meat in the story is that the circumstances and timing of it all coming out indicates a move by Sunak to bring her to heel.
    It’s all revenge for Brexit
    There was me thinking you would never outdo yourself on the Liz Truss will surprise on the upside stakes.

    Well done.
    Beat me to it and with a wittier comment as well. I mean really digging the depths there @Leon. Paranoia on stilts.
    Mark my words, within a decade people will rather admit to bestiality than admit to voting for Brexit.

    Leon’s paranoia is an early indication of that.
    Those who voted either way voted for something most people didn't want. There would have been a clear majority for a reformed EU offering serious two sided derogations to the UK for very good reasons.

    If Remain had won we would be in a political turmoil, but a different one, because the democratic deficit would not have gone away.

    I’ve no regrets at all about voting Leave.

    The fact that we have a crappy government is a separate issue.

    Voting for Brexit was like voting to remove from the cliff edge the sign which said: "DANGER: CLIFF - DO NOT JUMP".
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,982
    Pulpstar said:

    My reading is as follows

    SB: Can you arrange me a private course, going in with the masses is going to be a real embarrassment and half of them will hate me.
    CS: No, Fuck off SB that's not my job. Arrange your own bloody course.
    SB: Sighs, walks off take points.

    A bit embarrassing but not a breach of the code.

    You missed the last bit

    SB: If anyone asks, this never happened...
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,326
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence

    It is canonical to say history is written by the winners...
    Weirdly it's originally written by the journalists. Then that's the version held by the chattering classes. Then all the books and memoirs come out and things get reappraised a bit. But the books and memoirs are written by the interested so that version is a bit skewed, and are usually reappraised again by researchers a few years later. Then it goes thru the whole historian and PhD theses thing, and then there are more arguments which grumble on. The process is usually measured in decades.

    In milhist terms, things which get appraised and reappraised include the "clean Wehrmacht" (now thought to be a bit of a myth) and the performance of the Sherman tank (now thought to be as good as it could be given the circs)

    So there'll be a settled view on Brexit good or bad in about 30-40 years. Whether it will be the right one is debatable, but that's not how history works. Rather sadly, the person who said "one day all this will be just a pub quiz question" was right. :disappointed:
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 26,061
    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile on topic

    My seemingly indestructible 88-yr old aunt with significant co-morbidities, bent in half, thin as a sheet of paper, albeit still whip smart and retains all her critical faculties, sent me a text yesterday. This from someone who doesn't go onto the internet and has never had a laptop or smartphone.

    Apparently her mobile provider is phasing out 3G phones at the end of 2024 and she is worried. Will she need to get a new phone.

    The point being that she needs to make it to the end of 2024 and worry about the phone later, and each month it becomes more challenging.

    Is the problem Joe Biden is facing. He may be fit to stand for POTUS now but in peoples' minds will be each successive year and his abilities.

    Quite. You look at him now and you inwardly wince. Ouch. He’s quite old. But he’ll probably make it though the day

    If he runs in 2024 he’s got to last to 2028 when he will be 86. It’s insane

    Have to say if I can do as well as Biden at his age, no problem. He is more effective than any recent president who apart from Trump were much younger than him.

    But he does have a problem, at least of perception, which means the Dems have a problem. More importantly the rest of us have a problem because the alternative to Biden is likely to be much, much worse than him, even if he is senile.
    I agree there's an issue, but it seems to be mostly ageism, for the reason you say. Objectively, Biden is a very effective President who sometimes misspeaks. Because he's old, people wonder if he's senile, but actually it's a habit he's had for many years, and in the round it really doesn't matter.

    So yes, there may be an electability issue if there's a strong challenger. But there probably shouldn't be. The system, for all its failings, has produced a pretty good President.
    Nick, I cant help but think you were one of those who mocked Reagan for his age.
    It’s also not true that he’s always been hesitant and rambling in his speech. I listened to a clip of him from about 2002 yesterday. Firm, eloquent, vigorous, lucid. The contrast is striking and melancholy. He is in obvious cognitive decline and it WILL be an issue

    My hunch is that he will stand and win, just about defeating Trump, but he will “retire” soon after for health reasons. So the VP pick really matters
    They said the same about George W Bush, and videos are available contrasting his stumbling speech as President with his far more fluent time as Governor. Bush still got elected twice.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821
    I don't know how many organisations are at fault here but it really seems amazing that it can happen:

    Living in a newly built block of flats deemed not fit for purpose by surveyors has been a "daily living nightmare," residents have said.

    Leaseholders at 53 Agar Grove in Camden claim they have spent hundreds of thousands of pounds in legal fees fighting insurers and developers.

    One resident, who bought his two-bedroom flat in 2019 for £850,000, said the experience had been "life-ruining".

    A government spokesperson called the situation "deplorable".

    When Daniel Bruce moved into the first home he'd owned, he hoped it would be his sanctuary, a place to build the next stage of his life.

    But the 38-year-old told the BBC the problems he has experienced had "altered the complete trajectory of my life".

    He said there were problems with the foundations, there were cracks in the walls, and the timber frame was rotting.

    Daniel added that bathroom floors had collapsed, there was water damage and that window frames and doors had distorted meaning they were stuck either open or closed.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65668790
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,131
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:
    You must be quite adept at reading between the lines as I found nothing particularly unpleasant about the tweet. Will he be missed?
    The comment about his children is the nasty bit.
    Is it ?
    It could also be sympathetic, since she has children of her own. Hard to tell.
    The fact people read it as a dig rather than sympathetic I think says more about them then about Jess.
    Indeed the OP by @tlg86 was horribly miscued.
    Why on earth bring someone's children into the political/twitter domain? They should be wholly out of bounds, unless paraded on the running board of a 1925 Rolls Royce phantom by their parents for some kind of intended political gain.

    I have no idea whether she meant well but I read it as passive/aggressive.
    It sounds almost like Jess Phillips has had some sort of dealings with the wider Raab family, otherwise mentioning the kids does feel a little bit off whatever the intention.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,085

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    True - I detest those icons of northern working class struggle - Jacob R-M, Bill Cash, and our Nige. Gawd bless them one and all.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 11,138
    edited May 2023
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Oh the irony from someone who uses the term Remoaner.

    Remoaner is a clear insult. To anyone not paranoid Brexiteer or Brexiter is just a different spelling of the same thing. You really do live in a little paranoid world of your own if you think most people have a clue it has some different meaning to other than 3 people in this world.
    No, I’m just a lot smarter than you - and more aware of linguistic nuance


    “On 14 June, a short email popped up in the inboxes of all Financial Times editorial staff. It came from the paper’s style guru and announced tersely: ‘The out campaigners should be Brexiters, not Brexiteers.’ As usual for the FT’s style pronouncements, the memo did not lay out the reasoning behind the decision, but it followed a discussion among editors over whether the word ‘Brexiteer’ had connotations of swashbuckling adventure.”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/victory-of-the-swashbucklers/
    And we are back to where we always go when you lose an argument:

    a) I'm smarter than you
    b) You are gay (a weird one)
    c) You are boring

    So so predictable.

    Note you missed the whole point of the post which is the vast majority of people do not know the difference between Brexiter and Brexiteer. Not so smart eh that you can't understand a simple post?
    But I’m right and you’re wrong and this was a real issue, which you missed because you’re less intelligent

    Still missed the whole point of the post I made in the first place (try reading it again to see if you are actually as intelligent as you think). Clearly not more intelligent if you still can't see it, but I'm stopping here because I'm not a 5 year old and I'm not getting into a: 'I'm right, your wrong' debate. You think that is an intelligent response?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,736
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile on topic

    My seemingly indestructible 88-yr old aunt with significant co-morbidities, bent in half, thin as a sheet of paper, albeit still whip smart and retains all her critical faculties sent me a text yesterday. This from someone who doesn't go onto the internet and has not laptop/smartphone, etc so quite a technophobe or a techno never bothered with it.

    Apparently her mobile provider is phasing out 3G phones at the end of 2024 and she is worried. Will she need to get a new phone.

    The point being that she needs to make it to the end of 2024 and worry about the phone later, and each month it becomes more challenging.

    Is the problem Joe Biden is facing. He may be fit to stand for POTUS now but in peoples' minds will be each successive year and his abilities.

    A weird obsession with his age and mental faculty here on pb. If he was facing a 45 year old it would be an issue. But he is facing a man who was delighted to have aced a really tough memory test back in 2020.

    The questions?

    "The fifth-to-last question on the test asks you to repeat a sentence out loud, before naming as many words as you can starting with F. In the following “abstraction” section, you have to spot the similarity between different objects such as trains and bicycles (modes of transport), or a watch and a ruler (measuring devices).

    Next, you have to recall the random words that were included in the earlier memory section. This may be the part that’s easiest to trip over. And finally, for the orientation part of the test, you have to … say what the date is."
    You think age has no bearing on peoples' ability? I'm sure you have relatives who were absolutely on the ball up until and through, say, their 80s (it will differ for everyone, might be earlier, might be later) and then dramatically deteriorated both in physical and mental energy. It is a factor over 80 imo and people are not illogical to think about it.

    Will it disqualify him from running or winning? Of course not. But it is a factor that will influence some, perhaps many people.

    If he was 45yrs old I would have plenty of issues with his performance and ability but age-related deterioration would not be one of them.
    The point is that if Biden (old) is facing a 45-year-old, age is an issue. If Biden (old) faces Trump (old) then not so much.
    It’s quite amazing that both parties in the US appear to think that an octogenarian can be the best candidate, for one of the most stressful jobs in the country.

    It may be a job they’ve both done before, but there have to be younger people out there who are more suitable.
    Yes but for betting purposes, therein lies a trap. Bookmakers will pay out on whoever wins, not on whoever should have won in a more rational world. It is not enough to say that Senator X or Governor Y would be a better candidate or president; even if we are right (and we probably are) we also need to identify a path to that position.
    Indeed. I think it’s going to start to dawn on both parties, as the actual primary season draws closer, of the need to choose someone younger. Perhaps there will be some polling that says something about age of the candidate. It could end up as a prisoner’s dilemma, with the rewards coming to the party that makes the switch to the younger candidate. Of course, picking a specific candidate is more difficult than looking at a generic one.
    Unless Biden shows serious ageing problems over the next year, that's highly unlikely on the part of the Democrats. It's near impossible to successfully challenge a sitting President, if they're doing a reasonable job in office.
    I think he’s done well, legislatively, in the past couple of years, getting a bunch of bills through while he still controlled both Houses last year - but looking at him now, even compared to 2018 and 2019, he’s clearly getting a lot older.

    The 2020 campaign, being during the pandemic, didn’t have the travel schedule of a usual campaign, and there has to be a question as to whether he’s up for that in ‘24, when whoever is opposing him will turn up regularly in every swing state.

    There’s also a question about Kamala, who has even worse ratings, and the opprtunity to replace her has gone.

    The party’s decision not to allow primary debates is likely to be challlenged by someone.

    On the Rebublican side, they need to quickly work out who is the challenger to Trump, and whittle the field down as quickly as possible. This is where the betting value might lie. Someone mentioned Tim Scott upthread, who could come from nowhere as Obama did in 2008. You’ll probably need a few good value losers to pick the right person though!
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stereodog said:

    On the Suella Braverman thing the precise wording of those emails will make all the difference. It really shouldn’t be a difficult investigation.

    If she just asked a civil servant to explore whether an option to attend in private was available and concluded that there wasn’t then I think she’s safe. That’s just asking staff to do your research for you.

    If she asked civil servants to try and lean on people to create an exception for her then it seems to be a clear breach of the ministerial code.

    My reading is as follows

    SB: Can you arrange me a private course, going in with the masses is going to be a real embarrassment and half of them will hate me.
    CS: No, Fuck off SB that's not my job. Arrange your own bloody course.
    SB: Sighs, walks off take points.

    A bit embarrassing but not a breach of the code.
    So she took the points rather than go on the course ?

    And why didn't she ask a spad, other lackey or husband to research the issue ?
    I have no idea. If Rishi had anything about him he'd ask her that directly rather than farming it off to an "ethics advisor".
    My guess is she sees senior civil servants as a PA of sorts (Which is wrong but not code-breaking). Her SPAD doesn't seem very good - aren't they supposed to advise rather than get their minister further into the shit :D
    I think the current tranche of Spads reflects the general low wattage of their overlords, given that we're near the bottom of the Conservative's intellectual barrel. A lot of constituency bag carriers promoted way above their wit and ability.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,645
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    One of the main problems with Bravermanspeedingoneononetrainingethicscivilservantsadvicegivenornotgate is that it is so fucking boring

    All we need to know is that a senior Tory tried to get out of what the rest of us would have to do. It only needs an attention span of ten seconds or so.
    She tried to get out of doing a speed awareness course as part of a group in favour of doing a speed awareness course as an individual, something which many prominent people do. Big deal. And nor do I really care whether she initially tried to involve a civil service aide or not.

    I cannot for the life of me see what electoral benefit Labour gets from pursuing this, at the expense of all the other meaningful things they should be concentrating on. Even if she goes, it would be a case of replacing an unpopular minister with someone potentially less obnoxious, be careful what you wish for.

    The only meat in the story is that the circumstances and timing of it all coming out indicates a move by Sunak to bring her to heel.
    It’s all revenge for Brexit
    There was me thinking you would never outdo yourself on the Liz Truss will surprise on the upside stakes.

    Well done.
    Beat me to it and with a wittier comment as well. I mean really digging the depths there @Leon. Paranoia on stilts.
    Mark my words, within a decade people will rather admit to bestiality than admit to voting for Brexit.

    Leon’s paranoia is an early indication of that.
    Those who voted either way voted for something most people didn't want. There would have been a clear majority for a reformed EU offering serious two sided derogations to the UK for very good reasons.

    If Remain had won we would be in a political turmoil, but a different one, because the democratic deficit would not have gone away.

    I’ve no regrets at all about voting Leave.

    The fact that we have a crappy government is a separate issue.

    Voting for Brexit was like voting to remove from the cliff edge the sign which said: "DANGER: CLIFF - DO NOT JUMP".
    My reasons for voting Leave were (a) we were a bad fit for the EU and (b) within the EU, political power was constantly being transferred upward from national legislatures, to supranational bodies.

    Power was never transferred back down.

    But, I accept that what I disliked about the EU was what others most liked about it.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,428
    Nigelb said:

    Deputy union sues over investigation into Sheriff’s Department gangs, order to show tattoos
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-05-22/deputy-union-sues-over-investigation-into-sheriffs-department-gangs-order-to-show-gang-tattoos
    ...late Monday, the Assn. for Los Angeles Deputy Sheriffs filed suit, arguing that ordering deputies to cooperate with the inspector general’s investigation and show their tattoos was unconstitutional, and would violate the 4th Amendment’s ban on unreasonable searches as well as the 5th Amendment’s protection against self-incrimination and the right to privacy under California’s constitution..

    ...The Sheriff’s Department has long faced allegations about secretive deputy groups running amok in certain stations and jails, controlling command staff and promoting a culture of violence. A Loyola Marymount University report released in 2021 identified 18 such groups that have existed over the last five decades, including the Executioners and the Banditos.

    Members of the former are alleged to sport tattoos of a skull with Nazi imagery and an AK-47, while members of the latter are allegedly known for their matching tattoos of a skeleton outfitted with a sombrero, bandoleer and pistol.

    After years of investigations, studies and lawsuits, on May 12 Huntsman’s office sent letters to 35 deputies suspected of being members of either the Executioners, an alleged deputy gang that operates out of the Compton station, or the Banditos, which operates out of the East L.A. station...

    Not surprised they are trying to block this.

    Once the gangs within the LA Sheriff’s Dept get prosecuted (finally), membership will be a rather toxic thing.

    Bet there are a fuck ton of policemen queuing for tattoo removal, right now.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 26,061
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:
    You must be quite adept at reading between the lines as I found nothing particularly unpleasant about the tweet. Will he be missed?
    The comment about his children is the nasty bit.
    Is it ?
    It could also be sympathetic, since she has children of her own. Hard to tell.
    The fact people read it as a dig rather than sympathetic I think says more about them then about Jess.
    Indeed the OP by @tlg86 was horribly miscued.
    Why on earth bring someone's children into the political/twitter domain? They should be wholly out of bounds, unless paraded on the running board of a 1925 Rolls Royce phantom by their parents for some kind of intended political gain.

    I have no idea whether she meant well but I read it as passive/aggressive.
    I read it as the blue team trying to divert attention from Suella Braverman.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,617

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    If the press is be believed theyre screwing up London as a financial centre becuase theyre all too busy introducing rules and non jobs rather than doing any actual work. At this rate theyll be overtaken by Stoke,
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    One of the main problems with Bravermanspeedingoneononetrainingethicscivilservantsadvicegivenornotgate is that it is so fucking boring

    All we need to know is that a senior Tory tried to get out of what the rest of us would have to do. It only needs an attention span of ten seconds or so.
    She tried to get out of doing a speed awareness course as part of a group in favour of doing a speed awareness course as an individual, something which many prominent people do. Big deal. And nor do I really care whether she initially tried to involve a civil service aide or not.

    I cannot for the life of me see what electoral benefit Labour gets from pursuing this, at the expense of all the other meaningful things they should be concentrating on. Even if she goes, it would be a case of replacing an unpopular minister with someone potentially less obnoxious, be careful what you wish for.

    The only meat in the story is that the circumstances and timing of it all coming out indicates a move by Sunak to bring her to heel.
    It’s all revenge for Brexit
    There was me thinking you would never outdo yourself on the Liz Truss will surprise on the upside stakes.

    Well done.
    Beat me to it and with a wittier comment as well. I mean really digging the depths there @Leon. Paranoia on stilts.
    Mark my words, within a decade people will rather admit to bestiality than admit to voting for Brexit.

    Leon’s paranoia is an early indication of that.
    Those who voted either way voted for something most people didn't want. There would have been a clear majority for a reformed EU offering serious two sided derogations to the UK for very good reasons.

    If Remain had won we would be in a political turmoil, but a different one, because the democratic deficit would not have gone away.

    I’ve no regrets at all about voting Leave.

    The fact that we have a crappy government is a separate issue.

    Voting for Brexit was like voting to remove from the cliff edge the sign which said: "DANGER: CLIFF - DO NOT JUMP".
    Quite right too; who does these so-called 'experts' in the Blob think they are, telling us what we can and can't jump off of?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,428

    I don't know how many organisations are at fault here but it really seems amazing that it can happen:

    Living in a newly built block of flats deemed not fit for purpose by surveyors has been a "daily living nightmare," residents have said.

    Leaseholders at 53 Agar Grove in Camden claim they have spent hundreds of thousands of pounds in legal fees fighting insurers and developers.

    One resident, who bought his two-bedroom flat in 2019 for £850,000, said the experience had been "life-ruining".

    A government spokesperson called the situation "deplorable".

    When Daniel Bruce moved into the first home he'd owned, he hoped it would be his sanctuary, a place to build the next stage of his life.

    But the 38-year-old told the BBC the problems he has experienced had "altered the complete trajectory of my life".

    He said there were problems with the foundations, there were cracks in the walls, and the timber frame was rotting.

    Daniel added that bathroom floors had collapsed, there was water damage and that window frames and doors had distorted meaning they were stuck either open or closed.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65668790

    The window frames and doors thing suggests the whole building is fucked.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 11,138
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    One of the main problems with Bravermanspeedingoneononetrainingethicscivilservantsadvicegivenornotgate is that it is so fucking boring

    All we need to know is that a senior Tory tried to get out of what the rest of us would have to do. It only needs an attention span of ten seconds or so.
    She tried to get out of doing a speed awareness course as part of a group in favour of doing a speed awareness course as an individual, something which many prominent people do. Big deal. And nor do I really care whether she initially tried to involve a civil service aide or not.

    I cannot for the life of me see what electoral benefit Labour gets from pursuing this, at the expense of all the other meaningful things they should be concentrating on. Even if she goes, it would be a case of replacing an unpopular minister with someone potentially less obnoxious, be careful what you wish for.

    The only meat in the story is that the circumstances and timing of it all coming out indicates a move by Sunak to bring her to heel.
    It’s all revenge for Brexit
    There was me thinking you would never outdo yourself on the Liz Truss will surprise on the upside stakes.

    Well done.
    Beat me to it and with a wittier comment as well. I mean really digging the depths there @Leon. Paranoia on stilts.
    Mark my words, within a decade people will rather admit to bestiality than admit to voting for Brexit.

    Leon’s paranoia is an early indication of that.
    Those who voted either way voted for something most people didn't want. There would have been a clear majority for a reformed EU offering serious two sided derogations to the UK for very good reasons.

    If Remain had won we would be in a political turmoil, but a different one, because the democratic deficit would not have gone away.

    I’ve no regrets at all about voting Leave.

    The fact that we have a crappy government is a separate issue.

    Voting for Brexit was like voting to remove from the cliff edge the sign which said: "DANGER: CLIFF - DO NOT JUMP".
    My reasons for voting Leave were (a) we were a bad fit for the EU and (b) within the EU, political power was constantly being transferred upward from national legislatures, to supranational bodies.

    Power was never transferred back down.

    But, I accept that what I disliked about the EU was what others most liked about it.
    Nice to get a sensible post from a Leaver rather than the drivel from Leon.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,085
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    One of the main problems with Bravermanspeedingoneononetrainingethicscivilservantsadvicegivenornotgate is that it is so fucking boring

    All we need to know is that a senior Tory tried to get out of what the rest of us would have to do. It only needs an attention span of ten seconds or so.
    She tried to get out of doing a speed awareness course as part of a group in favour of doing a speed awareness course as an individual, something which many prominent people do. Big deal. And nor do I really care whether she initially tried to involve a civil service aide or not.

    I cannot for the life of me see what electoral benefit Labour gets from pursuing this, at the expense of all the other meaningful things they should be concentrating on. Even if she goes, it would be a case of replacing an unpopular minister with someone potentially less obnoxious, be careful what you wish for.

    The only meat in the story is that the circumstances and timing of it all coming out indicates a move by Sunak to bring her to heel.
    It’s all revenge for Brexit
    There was me thinking you would never outdo yourself on the Liz Truss will surprise on the upside stakes.

    Well done.
    Beat me to it and with a wittier comment as well. I mean really digging the depths there @Leon. Paranoia on stilts.
    Mark my words, within a decade people will rather admit to bestiality than admit to voting for Brexit.

    Leon’s paranoia is an early indication of that.
    Those who voted either way voted for something most people didn't want. There would have been a clear majority for a reformed EU offering serious two sided derogations to the UK for very good reasons.

    If Remain had won we would be in a political turmoil, but a different one, because the democratic deficit would not have gone away.

    I’ve no regrets at all about voting Leave.

    The fact that we have a crappy government is a separate issue.

    Voting for Brexit was like voting to remove from the cliff edge the sign which said: "DANGER: CLIFF - DO NOT JUMP".
    My reasons for voting Leave were (a) we were a bad fit for the EU and (b) within the EU, political power was constantly being transferred upward from national legislatures, to supranational bodies.

    Power was never transferred back down.

    But, I accept that what I disliked about the EU was what others most liked about it.
    Fair enough. We're certainly not going to reprise the various pros and cons of the EU.

    My point was that it turns out we made a meaningless change. We said don't you dare tell us we can't jump off the cliff whereas of course we are not going to jump off the cliff, most of us.

    Don't you dare tell us that we must accept immigrants, whereas as was on the news this morning we have just accepted more immigrants (net migration) than ever before.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,736

    I don't know how many organisations are at fault here but it really seems amazing that it can happen:

    Living in a newly built block of flats deemed not fit for purpose by surveyors has been a "daily living nightmare," residents have said.

    Leaseholders at 53 Agar Grove in Camden claim they have spent hundreds of thousands of pounds in legal fees fighting insurers and developers.

    One resident, who bought his two-bedroom flat in 2019 for £850,000, said the experience had been "life-ruining".

    A government spokesperson called the situation "deplorable".

    When Daniel Bruce moved into the first home he'd owned, he hoped it would be his sanctuary, a place to build the next stage of his life.

    But the 38-year-old told the BBC the problems he has experienced had "altered the complete trajectory of my life".

    He said there were problems with the foundations, there were cracks in the walls, and the timber frame was rotting.

    Daniel added that bathroom floors had collapsed, there was water damage and that window frames and doors had distorted meaning they were stuck either open or closed.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65668790

    The window frames and doors thing suggests the whole building is fucked.
    Surely the banks involved, should sue the arses off the council and anyone professionally insured, who was involved in approving the construction?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,982
    viewcode said:

    So there'll be a settled view on Brexit good or bad in about 30-40 years. Whether it will be the right one is debatable

    Except not really.

    Before the vote, lot's of people said it be a bad thing, and bad things would happen.

    Since the vote, bad things have happened.

    The number of people who agree it's been a bad thing has monotonically risen since the event.

    There is no Universe in which it turns out not have been a bad thing.

    Yet still the cultists cling on...
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,736

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    If the press is be believed theyre screwing up London as a financial centre becuase theyre all too busy introducing rules and non jobs rather than doing any actual work. At this rate theyll be overtaken by Stoke,
    On the other hand, it will take a lot for London to get as bad as San Francisco.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/news/san-francisco-crime-surge-sees-tech-chiefs-move-to-london/
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Nigelb said:

    Deputy union sues over investigation into Sheriff’s Department gangs, order to show tattoos
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-05-22/deputy-union-sues-over-investigation-into-sheriffs-department-gangs-order-to-show-gang-tattoos
    ...late Monday, the Assn. for Los Angeles Deputy Sheriffs filed suit, arguing that ordering deputies to cooperate with the inspector general’s investigation and show their tattoos was unconstitutional, and would violate the 4th Amendment’s ban on unreasonable searches as well as the 5th Amendment’s protection against self-incrimination and the right to privacy under California’s constitution..

    ...The Sheriff’s Department has long faced allegations about secretive deputy groups running amok in certain stations and jails, controlling command staff and promoting a culture of violence. A Loyola Marymount University report released in 2021 identified 18 such groups that have existed over the last five decades, including the Executioners and the Banditos.

    Members of the former are alleged to sport tattoos of a skull with Nazi imagery and an AK-47, while members of the latter are allegedly known for their matching tattoos of a skeleton outfitted with a sombrero, bandoleer and pistol.

    After years of investigations, studies and lawsuits, on May 12 Huntsman’s office sent letters to 35 deputies suspected of being members of either the Executioners, an alleged deputy gang that operates out of the Compton station, or the Banditos, which operates out of the East L.A. station...

    Not surprised they are trying to block this.

    Once the gangs within the LA Sheriff’s Dept get prosecuted (finally), membership will be a rather toxic thing.

    Bet there are a fuck ton of policemen queuing for tattoo removal, right now.
    I'm reading LA Confidential at the moment, and this story doesn't half resonate.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    True - I detest those icons of northern working class struggle - Jacob R-M, Bill Cash, and our Nige. Gawd bless them one and all.
    Clem Attlee was a posho and Simon de Montfort was a Frenchman.
  • Options
    BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,451

    This "email trail" seems from the reporting to be emails sent to the Cabinet Office by concerned parties (including the Home Secretary herself?), not emails from her ordering civil servants to arrange her course

    I'd guess the leak is from the Cabinet Office

    In wholly unrelated Cabinet Office news, the current Director General of the Economic and Domestic Affairs Secretariat is one Nicholas Joicey

    "The Economic and Domestic Affairs Secretariat (EDS) is a secretariat in the United Kingdom Cabinet Office.

    It supports the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and Minister for the Cabinet Office develop, co-ordinate and agree the UK government's domestic policy across the departments of state; with foreign and security policy co-ordinated by the separate National Security Secretariat (NSS). Together these two secretariats form the core what is the Cabinet Secretariat, and are the traditional redoubts of high fliers in the UK civil service. Being appointed to roles in EDS are highly coveted by talented civil servants, and competition is intense.

    The head of EDS, who reports directly to the Cabinet Secretary, is a director general (or, before the mid-'90s renaming, a deputy secretary). It is widely regarded as one of the most powerful roles in the Civil Service due to having regular access to the prime minister, other cabinet-level ministers and their private secretaries, as well as the most senior officials in Whitehall to ensure 'collective agreement'. Without collective agreement and the issuing of a 'clearance' from EDS, departments cannot progress with policy announcements or take forward high profile and significant projects. In order to fulfil its duties, EDS officials work very closely with their counterparts in HM Treasury, 10 Downing Street and other teams in the Cabinet Office such as the Prime Minister's Implementation Unit.

    The head of EDS (and more recently the head of the Cabinet Secretariats) is sometimes referred to as the Deputy Cabinet Secretary, due to running Cabinet and its subcommittees, as well as brokering policy decisions across government on behalf of the prime minister and his senior advisers. The head of EDS has a secure pass through the door that connects their office in 70 Whitehall to 10 Downing Street."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_and_Domestic_Affairs_Secretariat

    Joicey isn't on the list of DGs so I'm not sure when he was appointed

    I wonder if he was married to the Shadow Chancellor at the time, or the Shadow Minister for the Cabinet Office, or just the MP for Leeds West

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Joicey

    You think a politically-biased civil servant is risking his career to try and weaken a government that all the polls say will soon be swept away in any case? Sounds more like a desperate smear. Cui bono?
    I didn't say any of that. Was the "In wholly unrelated Cabinet Office news" the particularly smeary bit of my post?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,085
    edited May 2023

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    True - I detest those icons of northern working class struggle - Jacob R-M, Bill Cash, and our Nige. Gawd bless them one and all.
    Clem Attlee was a posho and Simon de Montfort was a Frenchman.
    The narrative that Brexit was the brainchild of the northern working classes is a persistent one. I never particularly saw Alan Sked or James Goldsmith or the rest of the poshos as having the good people of Hartlepool in mind with their endeavours.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,645
    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    So there'll be a settled view on Brexit good or bad in about 30-40 years. Whether it will be the right one is debatable

    Except not really.

    Before the vote, lot's of people said it be a bad thing, and bad things would happen.

    Since the vote, bad things have happened.

    The number of people who agree it's been a bad thing has monotonically risen since the event.

    There is no Universe in which it turns out not have been a bad thing.

    Yet still the cultists cling on...
    Brexit wounded your own pride, but not everyone would see that as a bad thing.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821
    The teens who did their A levels in 2020 will be leaving university next month.

    Anyone know how they compare their covid affected university experience compared to other year groups ?

    I wonder if the media will give an update on how those who publicly demanded they be given the grades they needed to do the course they wanted got on.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,369
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    If the press is be believed theyre screwing up London as a financial centre becuase theyre all too busy introducing rules and non jobs rather than doing any actual work. At this rate theyll be overtaken by Stoke,
    On the other hand, it will take a lot for London to get as bad as San Francisco.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/news/san-francisco-crime-surge-sees-tech-chiefs-move-to-london/
    London needs to get ready for crime wave judging by the way San Francisco tech CEOs have been variously refusing to pay rent, dealing drugs and murdering each other.
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    The International Monetary Fund said on Tuesday that it no longer expects Britain's economy will fall into a recession this year, upgrading forecasts that it published last month.

    The IMF said British gross domestic product was set to grow by 0.4% in 2023. In April, it forecast a contraction of 0.3%.


    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/imf-says-uk-no-longer-heading-recession-2023-2023-05-23/

    Yet another failed forecast
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,774
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,617
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    True - I detest those icons of northern working class struggle - Jacob R-M, Bill Cash, and our Nige. Gawd bless them one and all.
    Clem Attlee was a posho and Simon de Montfort was a Frenchman.
    The narrative that Brexit was the brainchild of the northern working classes is a persistent one. I never particularly saw Alan Sked or James Goldsmith or the rest of the poshos as having the good people of Hartlepool in mind with their endeavours.
    So much like Juncker and Mandelson then ?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,617

    The International Monetary Fund said on Tuesday that it no longer expects Britain's economy will fall into a recession this year, upgrading forecasts that it published last month.

    The IMF said British gross domestic product was set to grow by 0.4% in 2023. In April, it forecast a contraction of 0.3%.


    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/imf-says-uk-no-longer-heading-recession-2023-2023-05-23/

    Yet another failed forecast
    Cant have, theyre "experts"
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,031
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    True - I detest those icons of northern working class struggle - Jacob R-M, Bill Cash, and our Nige. Gawd bless them one and all.
    Clem Attlee was a posho and Simon de Montfort was a Frenchman.
    The narrative that Brexit was the brainchild of the northern working classes is a persistent one. I never particularly saw Alan Sked or James Goldsmith or the rest of the poshos as having the good people of Hartlepool in mind with their endeavours.
    C'mon, Dominic Cummings spent time on a northern estate.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    True - I detest those icons of northern working class struggle - Jacob R-M, Bill Cash, and our Nige. Gawd bless them one and all.
    Clem Attlee was a posho and Simon de Montfort was a Frenchman.
    The narrative that Brexit was the brainchild of the northern working classes is a persistent one. I never particularly saw Alan Sked or James Goldsmith or the rest of the poshos as having the good people of Hartlepool in mind with their endeavours.
    So what ?

    Although James Goldsmith was opposed to globalisation:

    After the French referendum on the European Union, Sir James turned his focus to GATT, the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, which had still not been agreed.

    He passionately believed global free trade would lead to the destruction of jobs and society in the developed world, and to impoverishment, pollution and social upheaval in the developing world.


    http://www.sirjamesgoldsmith.com/thinker/politics-economics/free-trade/
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,399
    Scott_xP said:

    Pulpstar said:

    My reading is as follows

    SB: Can you arrange me a private course, going in with the masses is going to be a real embarrassment and half of them will hate me.
    CS: No, Fuck off SB that's not my job. Arrange your own bloody course.
    SB: Sighs, walks off take points.

    A bit embarrassing but not a breach of the code.

    You missed the last bit

    SB: If anyone asks, this never happened...
    Getting the CS to do private business of the minister is a breach of the code.

    Braverman's issue isn't that she's not a Massive Bad - she hasn't. The politics? Much worse. SueEllen is doing the opposite of delivering on her core policy - she's making things much worse. She's on manoeuvrers for the leadership smelling blood in the water. And she was previously sacked for breaching the code by not caring about security, And lying about it. She breached the code. And lied again.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,085

    Scott_xP said:

    Pulpstar said:

    My reading is as follows

    SB: Can you arrange me a private course, going in with the masses is going to be a real embarrassment and half of them will hate me.
    CS: No, Fuck off SB that's not my job. Arrange your own bloody course.
    SB: Sighs, walks off take points.

    A bit embarrassing but not a breach of the code.

    You missed the last bit

    SB: If anyone asks, this never happened...
    Getting the CS to do private business of the minister is a breach of the code.

    Braverman's issue isn't that she's not a Massive Bad - she hasn't. The politics? Much worse. SueEllen is doing the opposite of delivering on her core policy - she's making things much worse. She's on manoeuvrers for the leadership smelling blood in the water. And she was previously sacked for breaching the code by not caring about security, And lying about it. She breached the code. And lied again.
    When the HS goes out to dinner she has a protection squad with her.

    It is entirely reasonable for her to question which parts of her job are "private" and which "public". Which it appears she did here.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,736

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Spain wants to ban end-to-end encryption for hundreds of millions of people within the European Union, according to a leaked document "that reveals strong support among EU member states for proposals to scan private messages for illegal content."
    https://twitter.com/KimZetter/status/1660740980650409984

    Where does the UK stand on such things these days ?

    Just as bad. Politicians everywhere are trying to repeal the laws of maths and physics.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/feb/24/signal-app-warns-it-will-quit-uk-if-law-weakens-end-to-end-encryption
    “The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia,” said Turnbull.
    It’s the 21st century version of the Indiana legislature that tried to redefine pi, or the 1990s US export controls on what’s now considered broken encryption.

    Wait until the Chinese get hold of a quantum computer.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    True - I detest those icons of northern working class struggle - Jacob R-M, Bill Cash, and our Nige. Gawd bless them one and all.
    Clem Attlee was a posho and Simon de Montfort was a Frenchman.
    The narrative that Brexit was the brainchild of the northern working classes is a persistent one. I never particularly saw Alan Sked or James Goldsmith or the rest of the poshos as having the good people of Hartlepool in mind with their endeavours.
    So much like Juncker and Mandelson then ?
    Just think how much Mandelson would prefer Hartlepool now.

    He'd even be able to buy guacamole.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,085

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    True - I detest those icons of northern working class struggle - Jacob R-M, Bill Cash, and our Nige. Gawd bless them one and all.
    Clem Attlee was a posho and Simon de Montfort was a Frenchman.
    The narrative that Brexit was the brainchild of the northern working classes is a persistent one. I never particularly saw Alan Sked or James Goldsmith or the rest of the poshos as having the good people of Hartlepool in mind with their endeavours.
    So what ?

    Although James Goldsmith was opposed to globalisation:

    After the French referendum on the European Union, Sir James turned his focus to GATT, the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, which had still not been agreed.

    He passionately believed global free trade would lead to the destruction of jobs and society in the developed world, and to impoverishment, pollution and social upheaval in the developing world.


    http://www.sirjamesgoldsmith.com/thinker/politics-economics/free-trade/
    You can't move in The Ward Jackson in Hartlepool without bumping into someone who has turned their focus to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,368
    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    So there'll be a settled view on Brexit good or bad in about 30-40 years. Whether it will be the right one is debatable

    Except not really.

    Before the vote, lot's of people said it be a bad thing, and bad things would happen.

    Since the vote, bad things have happened.

    The number of people who agree it's been a bad thing has monotonically risen since the event.

    There is no Universe in which it turns out not have been a bad thing.

    Yet still the cultists cling on...
    Yes, two bad things have happened since Brexit: covid and Ukraine.
    Occasionally some on the fringes attempt to blame these things on Brexit. But these people are maniacs.

    I tend to disregard those who see no universes in which Brexit is a good thing, because they are clearly not thinking through all the possible futures. There is a highly plausible future, for example, in which the Euro goes to shit and the less attached we are to the EU the better. I think that future is quite likely.
    Now you might think, like kinabalu, that future probably won't happen. That would be fair enough. But to say there is no future in which Brexit was the right move is insane.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,428
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Spain wants to ban end-to-end encryption for hundreds of millions of people within the European Union, according to a leaked document "that reveals strong support among EU member states for proposals to scan private messages for illegal content."
    https://twitter.com/KimZetter/status/1660740980650409984

    Where does the UK stand on such things these days ?

    Just as bad. Politicians everywhere are trying to repeal the laws of maths and physics.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/feb/24/signal-app-warns-it-will-quit-uk-if-law-weakens-end-to-end-encryption
    “The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia,” said Turnbull.
    It’s the 21st century version of the Indiana legislature that tried to redefine pi, or the 1990s US export controls on what’s now considered broken encryption.

    Wait until the Chinese get hold of a quantum computer.
    I have a t shirt that has unlimited length RSA in a Perl script on it. Because the T-shirt has a bar code version of the code on it as well, it is machine readable. Which meant under the 1990s law it was a munition.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 51,187
    Cairo has some really impressive new museums




    It’s also really weird to be in a country where everyone (apparently) likes their prime minister. Sisi. I guess there is a selection bias in who I am meeting (richer, English speaking) nonetheless they ALL approve of him and seem sincere. They say he has brought stability and is bringing prosperity
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    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,449
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all revenge for Brexit

    Why would her Parliamentary colleagues want revenge for that?
    Because some of them are Remainers?

    Just look at the reaction on here. “I hate her because Brexit”. “She deserves to go for Brexit” etc etc

    I don’t believe there is some vast blob Remoaner conspiracy to destroy brexiteer ministers. I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division

    There are STILL people who think Brexit was a bad idea. They just can’t let go

    " I do believe the Westminster civil service is very Remainery (how can it not be?) and will take the chance to enact revenge on prominent Leavers if given an opportunity. It’s a big cultural division"

    While, being largely London-dwelling the Westminster civil service probably will skew remain, the idea that they'll corporately seek to wreak 'revenge' on Brexit-supporting ministers is nonsense. I knew we'd start getting snakes like Wootton creeping out and trying to shift the blame onto public servants rather than actually looking at the facts. It is far more likely that her fellow MPs are manoeuvring against her than civil servants (who after all, are well aware that there's hardly much likelihood of a liberal remainer being moved into Home Sec).

    Have to say as well, the general thrust of 'she has to go' motivation I've seen on here seems to coalesce around her being thick, entitled and bonkers, rather than her being a brexiter.
    Anyone who uses the ludicrous term “brexiter” is a tragic Remoaner fuck, so you can be politely ignored on this point
    Genuinely not sure I understand what you mean? What's the proper word for someone who supported Brexit that is any more/less ludicrous than 'Brexiter'? As opposed to 'Remainer', which it's the counterpart to? Seems pretty innocuous to me.
    Brexiter is a term invented to avoid using the word “brexiteer” as that was seen as making Brexit sound glamorous and dashing - like buccaneer or mountaineer

    Even now the FT will ONLY use the word Brexiter for exactly this reason, even tho the rest of the world uses Brexiteer

    It’s a dead giveaway if anyone uses it (consciously or not)

    I suspect that Brexit will be a cultural fault line in our politics for generations, even when we’ve forgotten all the original issues that caused it. Like the Guelphs and Ghibellines in Renaissance Florence
    Brexiter is a term which reminds Brexiters of their idiocy and place in the pecking order (low, very low).

    Like w***er. In fact the two are synonymous.
    The bitterness of the middle class Londoner at full employment for working class northerners is a delight to see.
    If the press is be believed theyre screwing up London as a financial centre becuase theyre all too busy introducing rules and non jobs rather than doing any actual work. At this rate theyll be overtaken by Stoke,
    On the other hand, it will take a lot for London to get as bad as San Francisco.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/news/san-francisco-crime-surge-sees-tech-chiefs-move-to-london/
    The difference between the San Francisco I visited in the 1990s and the one I visited in 2019 was one of the most shocking things I've ever seen in the developed world. (And I've lived in Baltimore for a benchmark!)
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    kjhkjh Posts: 11,138
    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    So there'll be a settled view on Brexit good or bad in about 30-40 years. Whether it will be the right one is debatable

    Except not really.

    Before the vote, lot's of people said it be a bad thing, and bad things would happen.

    Since the vote, bad things have happened.

    The number of people who agree it's been a bad thing has monotonically risen since the event.

    There is no Universe in which it turns out not have been a bad thing.

    Yet still the cultists cling on...
    Yes, two bad things have happened since Brexit: covid and Ukraine.
    Occasionally some on the fringes attempt to blame these things on Brexit. But these people are maniacs.

    I tend to disregard those who see no universes in which Brexit is a good thing, because they are clearly not thinking through all the possible futures. There is a highly plausible future, for example, in which the Euro goes to shit and the less attached we are to the EU the better. I think that future is quite likely.
    Now you might think, like kinabalu, that future probably won't happen. That would be fair enough. But to say there is no future in which Brexit was the right move is insane.
    Excellent post. I am an avid remainer, but I would really like to be proved wrong and I accept I could be. Even though I feel strongly it is unlikely I would really like it to be so.
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