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LAB moves to an 86% betting chance to win a Rutherglen by-election – politicalbetting.com

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  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,752

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    Fewer people = less strain on the planet's resources.
    Generally a good thing, but challenges to societies that age, and rely on new workers to pay for the comfortable retirement of the oldies.
    That's true. But unless the population's going to go up forever, at some point it has to...not go up.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    Yes. yes and yes. Four. The first thirty years are the worst.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    I have single friends who are now wondering who they will depend on in old age. One lady is the only child with no other near relatives of anything like her age.
    It's probably practical, but I'm not sure I can think of a more depressing reason to have kids.
    Think of it as an investment.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,034

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    If that is the case then current retirement models eventually won't work anywhere.

    We'll all have to work until the last 2-3 years of our lives.
    Or become more Scottish and die before we retire. Trendsetters, as always.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This is how the GOP are going to steal the election next year.

    Absolute sister fucking fascists.

    Breaking: AZ state Sen. Sonny Borrelli sends letter to counties telling them they aren't allowed to use machines to count ballots.

    Falsely claims that a Senate resolution - not approved by voters/governor - gives the legislature the authority to make this decision.


    https://twitter.com/JenAFifield/status/1660706293722800128

    Except the Arizona Secretary of State who will verify the election is a Democrat
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_of_Arizona#:~:text=The secretary also serves as,holder is Democrat Adrian Fontes.
    The key is to create confusion, push boundaries of acceptable behaviour, and seek to pressure officials or legislatures to junk elections they don't like. In Arizona a few of the recent elections were so tight that it was very close to having such a plan work.
    So, unless the Secretary of State is a Republican it is irrelevant
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    If that is the case then current retirement models eventually won't work anywhere.

    We'll all have to work until the last 2-3 years of our lives.
    We won't, the French riot at the prospect of even working to 64. Physically you can't do most manual jobs past 65.

    Robots will have to fill in more of the gap, certainly in the developed world where birthrates are falling most
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    Eh?

    Having passionate sex with intelligent beautiful women in a sumptuous bed is the greatest joy one can have in life.

    Something I wish I knew much much more about.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,947

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    Fewer people = less strain on the planet's resources.
    Generally a good thing, but challenges to societies that age, and rely on new workers to pay for the comfortable retirement of the oldies.
    Agree. These are the problems we should be addressing by means other than a relentless increase in population.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,034

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    Eh?

    Having passionate sex with intelligent beautiful women in a sumptuous bed is the greatest joy one can have in life.

    Something I wish I knew much much more about.
    Have you ever tried a roll and square sausage?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,034
    algarkirk said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    Yes. yes and yes. Four. The first thirty years are the worst.

    The second thirty five years - they were the worst too. The third thirty five years I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline.

    ** With apologies
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,752
    ohnotnow said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    Eh?

    Having passionate sex with intelligent beautiful women in a sumptuous bed is the greatest joy one can have in life.

    Something I wish I knew much much more about.
    Have you ever tried a roll and square sausage?
    Not for sex....oh I see.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    Dude:

    Nigeria is Bangladesh, but twenty years behind.

    And I didn't even cherry pick the countries. If I'd wanted to, I could have shown South Africa (2.37), Morocco (2.33) or Tunisia (2.09).

    Sure, the world will become more African. But we're barely more than a decade away from Africa's birth rate being below replacement.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,039
    Here's the Wikipedia article on the South Korean problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_South_Korea

    I haven't seen a formal estimate of the number of Koreans who are born in the United States, but the articles typically say "thousands" each year:
    For example: https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=20020526&slug=koreabirths26

    As most of you know, the US has "birthright" citizenship, thanks to the 14th Amendment. (I believe most other nations in the Americas have similar rules.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    You've not tried heroin then?
    For the avoidance of doubt, I have not. But I have tried parenting, and I reckon heroin would be more fun.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Prediction: “Bregret” will peak - at some insane level, around 70-80% - at the very same time as it becomes clear, for the first moment that there are serious Brexit benefits and Britain is better apart from the EU

    I am NOT claiming Brexit will never be reversed. With our dysfunctional polity that is quite possible. Eg we joined the EEC about four years before we discovered Thatcherism - and we nationally solved the economic issues which inspired us to join the EEC in the first place

    We're not rejoining the EU in your lifetime.
    Is that a reflection on Brexit - or Leon's lifestyle?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,752
    edited May 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    You've not tried heroin then?
    For the avoidance of doubt, I have not. But I have tried parenting, and I reckon heroin would be more fun.
    halfway between heroin and parenting is a roll and square sausage, if that helps.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    Fewer people = less strain on the planet's resources.
    Generally a good thing, but challenges to societies that age, and rely on new workers to pay for the comfortable retirement of the oldies.
    That's true. But unless the population's going to go up forever, at some point it has to...not go up.
    Sure: but if the TFR is 2.1, and you grow retirement age with life expectancy, then you have a stable relationship between the number of workers and the number of retirees.

    If your TFR is 0.7, your population is ageing and there are riots every time you try and change the retirement age, then... ummm... there is serious trouble ahead.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    That’s rather sad when you know that she died in her forties of alcoholism.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    Dude:

    Nigeria is Bangladesh, but twenty years behind.

    And I didn't even cherry pick the countries. If I'd wanted to, I could have shown South Africa (2.37), Morocco (2.33) or Tunisia (2.09).

    Sure, the world will become more African. But we're barely more than a decade away from Africa's birth rate being below replacement.
    Of the 3 you picked, South African and Morocco still have a fertility rate above the global average and even Tunisia is only fractionally below replacement level.

    So the world will become increasingly African and there is no evidence at all Africa overall will move below replacement level, for starters it is far more religious than most of the developed world and religious populations under 45 have more children on average than the non religious
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    Fewer people = less strain on the planet's resources.
    Generally a good thing, but challenges to societies that age, and rely on new workers to pay for the comfortable retirement of the oldies.
    That's true. But unless the population's going to go up forever, at some point it has to...not go up.
    Sure: but if the TFR is 2.1, and you grow retirement age with life expectancy, then you have a stable relationship between the number of workers and the number of retirees.

    If your TFR is 0.7, your population is ageing and there are riots every time you try and change the retirement age, then... ummm... there is serious trouble ahead.
    Perhaps it's the ideal society: a preponderance of older people so low crime, robots to do most of the hard work, and a relatively small labour force that can command high wages.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,476
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    At some level we’re all African anyway…
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    Dude:

    Nigeria is Bangladesh, but twenty years behind.

    And I didn't even cherry pick the countries. If I'd wanted to, I could have shown South Africa (2.37), Morocco (2.33) or Tunisia (2.09).

    Sure, the world will become more African. But we're barely more than a decade away from Africa's birth rate being below replacement.
    Prosperity is the most reliable of all forms of contraception.

    Ably aided by secularisation, doomsterism, house prices, over work especially among young women, education training and short termism going on till middle age (ask any doctor or academic), material objects and the need for child seats.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,476
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    Dude:

    Nigeria is Bangladesh, but twenty years behind.

    And I didn't even cherry pick the countries. If I'd wanted to, I could have shown South Africa (2.37), Morocco (2.33) or Tunisia (2.09).

    Sure, the world will become more African. But we're barely more than a decade away from Africa's birth rate being below replacement.
    You do realise that neither Morocco or Tunisia and RSA only partially qualify as what he really means by “African”

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    Fewer people = less strain on the planet's resources.
    Generally a good thing, but challenges to societies that age, and rely on new workers to pay for the comfortable retirement of the oldies.
    That's true. But unless the population's going to go up forever, at some point it has to...not go up.
    Sure: but if the TFR is 2.1, and you grow retirement age with life expectancy, then you have a stable relationship between the number of workers and the number of retirees.

    If your TFR is 0.7, your population is ageing and there are riots every time you try and change the retirement age, then... ummm... there is serious trouble ahead.
    Serious trouble ahead is France's middle name.

    Somehow they manage to emerge phoenix like.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    Dude:

    Nigeria is Bangladesh, but twenty years behind.

    And I didn't even cherry pick the countries. If I'd wanted to, I could have shown South Africa (2.37), Morocco (2.33) or Tunisia (2.09).

    Sure, the world will become more African. But we're barely more than a decade away from Africa's birth rate being below replacement.
    Suspect this is going to be a bit complex for HYUFD to get his head around.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,916

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    If that is the case then current retirement models eventually won't work anywhere.

    We'll all have to work until the last 2-3 years of our lives.
    I think that retirement systems will be the least of the world's problems if a declining population trend not only becomes established, but accelerates.

    Capitalism itself as an economic system depends on growth to function. Businesses will borrow to invest because they will expect to grow and so be able to pay back their debts in the future. If the population is shrinking, and particularly if it is shrinking rapidly, then the potential for future growth is much reduced, there's no borrowing for investment and instead the economy contracts - capitalism doesn't exactly do a steady state.

    And then, beyond economics, what are the psychological implications of being a young member of a species in irreversible decline, trending towards a population of zero? Not good, I would suggest.

    Now, sure, absent large-scale emigration to outer space, stabilising (or gently deflating for a limited period) the global population is a useful, perhaps even necessary thing. But it's going to require some deft handling and cultural change if it's going to avoid becoming a disaster.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This is how the GOP are going to steal the election next year.

    Absolute sister fucking fascists.

    Breaking: AZ state Sen. Sonny Borrelli sends letter to counties telling them they aren't allowed to use machines to count ballots.

    Falsely claims that a Senate resolution - not approved by voters/governor - gives the legislature the authority to make this decision.


    https://twitter.com/JenAFifield/status/1660706293722800128

    Except the Arizona Secretary of State who will verify the election is a Democrat
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_of_Arizona#:~:text=The secretary also serves as,holder is Democrat Adrian Fontes.
    The key is to create confusion, push boundaries of acceptable behaviour, and seek to pressure officials or legislatures to junk elections they don't like. In Arizona a few of the recent elections were so tight that it was very close to having such a plan work.
    So, unless the Secretary of State is a Republican it is irrelevant
    Er, no. Are you of the sort that thinks January 6th shows there is nothing to worry about because it didn;t work...this time?

    That people attempt electoral fixes is very concerning (the bipartisan history of gerrymandering is well attested of course) - just managing to avoid a total collapse of electoral integrity in the face of partisan interference is massively concerning and not in the least 'irrelevant'.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,476

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    You've not tried heroin then?
    For the avoidance of doubt, I have not. But I have tried parenting, and I reckon heroin would be more fun.
    halfway between heroin and parenting is a roll and square sausage, if that helps.
    That’s a funny shaped sausage to use for a roll in the hay
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903
    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    You've not tried heroin then?
    No. Had a good time on Saturday though. 🙂
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    edited May 2023
    edit
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888

    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    That’s rather sad when you know that she died in her forties of alcoholism.
    Yes. She would be a lucky girl if she had lived the poem.

    Even this overlookable poem shows Larkin's genius in hitting a target others can't even see.

  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,039
    Here's a challenge for rcs1000: Explain the recoveries in the US TFR, post WW II, notably the one peaking n 2006-2007: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States (I am not a demgrapher, but I don't know of any Western nation that has had that kind of recovery since 2000.)

    (In my own opinion, part of the explanation is morale. Another part is densification. I don't think it's an accident that the TFR is highest in, for example the Okinawa prefect in Japan, or lowest in Seolu, in Korea.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    Fewer people = less strain on the planet's resources.
    Generally a good thing, but challenges to societies that age, and rely on new workers to pay for the comfortable retirement of the oldies.
    That's true. But unless the population's going to go up forever, at some point it has to...not go up.
    Sure: but if the TFR is 2.1, and you grow retirement age with life expectancy, then you have a stable relationship between the number of workers and the number of retirees.

    If your TFR is 0.7, your population is ageing and there are riots every time you try and change the retirement age, then... ummm... there is serious trouble ahead.
    Perhaps it's the ideal society: a preponderance of older people so low crime, robots to do most of the hard work, and a relatively small labour force that can command high wages.
    So far, the experience is that the most aged countries are not the happiest.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    edit
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,177

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    I have single friends who are now wondering who they will depend on in old age. One lady is the only child with no other near relatives of anything like her age.
    It's probably practical, but I'm not sure I can think of a more depressing reason to have kids.
    What such people are seeing is the examples of old people who have no one to talk to. Just the grim ticking of the clock.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This is how the GOP are going to steal the election next year.

    Absolute sister fucking fascists.

    Breaking: AZ state Sen. Sonny Borrelli sends letter to counties telling them they aren't allowed to use machines to count ballots.

    Falsely claims that a Senate resolution - not approved by voters/governor - gives the legislature the authority to make this decision.


    https://twitter.com/JenAFifield/status/1660706293722800128

    Except the Arizona Secretary of State who will verify the election is a Democrat
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_of_Arizona#:~:text=The secretary also serves as,holder is Democrat Adrian Fontes.
    The key is to create confusion, push boundaries of acceptable behaviour, and seek to pressure officials or legislatures to junk elections they don't like. In Arizona a few of the recent elections were so tight that it was very close to having such a plan work.
    There is a really good documentary about it: "Succession".
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    edited May 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    You've not tried heroin then?
    For the avoidance of doubt, I have not. But I have tried parenting, and I reckon heroin would be more fun.
    halfway between heroin and parenting is a roll and square sausage, if that helps.
    That’s a funny shaped sausage to use for a roll in the hay
    Effective as contraception when held between the knees.

    PS Does StillWaters know that Booker Prize winning, now totally forgotten, nonconformist organist novelist Stanley Middleton wrote a novel called Still Waters. I read it in about 1976.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,916
    edited May 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    Dude:

    Nigeria is Bangladesh, but twenty years behind.

    And I didn't even cherry pick the countries. If I'd wanted to, I could have shown South Africa (2.37), Morocco (2.33) or Tunisia (2.09).

    Sure, the world will become more African. But we're barely more than a decade away from Africa's birth rate being below replacement.
    Suspect this is going to be a bit complex for HYUFD to get his head around.
    All the time HYUFD refuses to consider that the current state of things is not fixed, and that many future changes can be predicted with one degree of accuracy or another. In that he is a caricature of a conservative, a person who sees stasis not merely as desirable, but also inevitable, and fails to conceive of anything else.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,039
    williamglenn - May I assume from your name you are not a grandmother?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    Dude:

    Nigeria is Bangladesh, but twenty years behind.

    And I didn't even cherry pick the countries. If I'd wanted to, I could have shown South Africa (2.37), Morocco (2.33) or Tunisia (2.09).

    Sure, the world will become more African. But we're barely more than a decade away from Africa's birth rate being below replacement.
    Of the 3 you picked, South African and Morocco still have a fertility rate above the global average and even Tunisia is only fractionally below replacement level.

    So the world will become increasingly African and there is no evidence at all Africa overall will move below replacement level, for starters it is far more religious than most of the developed world and religious populations under 45 have more children on average than the non religious
    "there is no evidence at all Africa overall will move below replacement level"

    When do you expect fertility rates to stop declining in Africa? Because if they do not, then it's only a matter of time before they fall below replacement levels.

    And you religious argument would be a lot more persuasive, if it wasn't for the fact that some of the most religious countries in the world have some of the lowest birthrates.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    edited May 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    If that is the case then current retirement models eventually won't work anywhere.

    We'll all have to work until the last 2-3 years of our lives.
    I think that retirement systems will be the least of the world's problems if a declining population trend not only becomes established, but accelerates.

    Capitalism itself as an economic system depends on growth to function. Businesses will borrow to invest because they will expect to grow and so be able to pay back their debts in the future. If the population is shrinking, and particularly if it is shrinking rapidly, then the potential for future growth is much reduced, there's no borrowing for investment and instead the economy contracts - capitalism doesn't exactly do a steady state.

    And then, beyond economics, what are the psychological implications of being a young member of a species in irreversible decline, trending towards a population of zero? Not good, I would suggest.

    Now, sure, absent large-scale emigration to outer space, stabilising (or gently deflating for a limited period) the global population is a useful, perhaps even necessary thing. But it's going to require some deft handling and cultural change if it's going to avoid becoming a disaster.
    It's not capitalism or capitalism. It just is. Growth depends on more resources or in making more efficient use of existing resources.

    So it would increase the onus on making more efficient use of existing resources.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    Eh?

    Having passionate sex with intelligent beautiful women in a sumptuous bed is the greatest joy one can have in life.

    Something I wish I knew much much more about.
    If you play your cards right one leads rather naturally to the other.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    You've not tried heroin then?
    For the avoidance of doubt, I have not. But I have tried parenting, and I reckon heroin would be more fun.
    halfway between heroin and parenting is a roll and square sausage, if that helps.
    That’s a funny shaped sausage to use for a roll in the hay
    Effective as contraception when held between the knees.

    Yes, and think of all the fun you can have later trying to vacuum up all the crumbs that you've managed to entwine with your bedding.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303

    williamglenn - May I assume from your name you are not a grandmother?

    That's very cryptic. No, I am not a grandmother. :)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    Fewer people = less strain on the planet's resources.
    Generally a good thing, but challenges to societies that age, and rely on new workers to pay for the comfortable retirement of the oldies.
    That's true. But unless the population's going to go up forever, at some point it has to...not go up.
    Sure: but if the TFR is 2.1, and you grow retirement age with life expectancy, then you have a stable relationship between the number of workers and the number of retirees.

    If your TFR is 0.7, your population is ageing and there are riots every time you try and change the retirement age, then... ummm... there is serious trouble ahead.
    Serious trouble ahead is France's middle name.

    Somehow they manage to emerge phoenix like.
    What's France's surname?

    France Serious Trouble Ahead Zut-Alors We Revolt Again.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    Fewer people = less strain on the planet's resources.
    Generally a good thing, but challenges to societies that age, and rely on new workers to pay for the comfortable retirement of the oldies.
    That's true. But unless the population's going to go up forever, at some point it has to...not go up.
    Sure: but if the TFR is 2.1, and you grow retirement age with life expectancy, then you have a stable relationship between the number of workers and the number of retirees.

    If your TFR is 0.7, your population is ageing and there are riots every time you try and change the retirement age, then... ummm... there is serious trouble ahead.
    Perhaps it's the ideal society: a preponderance of older people so low crime, robots to do most of the hard work, and a relatively small labour force that can command high wages.
    So far, the experience is that the most aged countries are not the happiest.
    Really? Look at a list of countries ranked by median age. At the youngest end you'll have a host of central African countries. At the oldest end you have Spain, Portugal, Greece, Germany, Italy, Japan, Monaco.

    Hard to measure happiness but my money would be on the latter list being happier countires than the former.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_median_age
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,164
    Tory MPs have accused Suella Braverman of stoking divisions in the party as she faces a potential probe into claims she breached the ministerial code by asking civil servants if they could help arrange a private awareness course after she was caught speeding.

    Allies of the beleaguered Home Secretary have claimed that the accusations show she has been subjected to a “witch hunt” for her hardline stance on immigration.

    But one senior Conservative MP dismissed such claims and said that Ms Braverman had “picked a fight” herself with multiple groups across Westminster in recent weeks and months.

    “I don’t think anyone who is quite that punchy could have a witch hunt against them,” they told i.

    “I cannot think of a week for the past six or seven weeks where she hasn’t picked a fight with a different set of people.”
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,694

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    At some level we’re all African anyway…
    Rubbish, I claim descent from Pangea and nowhere else…
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,164

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    At some level we’re all African anyway…
    Rubbish, I claim descent from Pangea and nowhere else…
    Leon can claim descent from some bottom-feeding sea creature, and we can only be disappointed that evolution only made it so far.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    I have single friends who are now wondering who they will depend on in old age. One lady is the only child with no other near relatives of anything like her age.
    It's probably practical, but I'm not sure I can think of a more depressing reason to have kids.
    I don't tend to worry about it as if things get that bad I'd just find a way to er.... well you know.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,752

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    I have single friends who are now wondering who they will depend on in old age. One lady is the only child with no other near relatives of anything like her age.
    It's probably practical, but I'm not sure I can think of a more depressing reason to have kids.
    I don't tend to worry about it as if things get that bad I'd just find a way to er.... well you know.
    Me, I'm planning on befriending a robot when it gets to that stage. Or something
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    Dude:

    Nigeria is Bangladesh, but twenty years behind.

    And I didn't even cherry pick the countries. If I'd wanted to, I could have shown South Africa (2.37), Morocco (2.33) or Tunisia (2.09).

    Sure, the world will become more African. But we're barely more than a decade away from Africa's birth rate being below replacement.
    Of the 3 you picked, South African and Morocco still have a fertility rate above the global average and even Tunisia is only fractionally below replacement level.

    So the world will become increasingly African and there is no evidence at all Africa overall will move below replacement level, for starters it is far more religious than most of the developed world and religious populations under 45 have more children on average than the non religious
    "there is no evidence at all Africa overall will move below replacement level"

    When do you expect fertility rates to stop declining in Africa? Because if they do not, then it's only a matter of time before they fall below replacement levels.

    And you religious argument would be a lot more persuasive, if it wasn't for the fact that some of the most religious countries in the world have some of the lowest birthrates.
    Not in terms of most religious under 45 they don't.
    'Mean TFR 1970–1975 for the most secular countries was 2.8 children, for moderate 3.3 and for most religious 5.4. The corresponding values 2000–2005 were 1.8, 1.7 and 2.8. Several other studies also suggest that religiosity favors high TFR'
    https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-020-8331-7

    'According to Pew's data, the average Mormon can expect to make 3.4 babies in his or her lifetime. Jews, Catholics, and most flavors of Protestantism have fertility rates ranging from 2 to 2.5. At the low end of the baby-making spectrum you've got atheists, with 1.6 kids, and agnostics, who average only 1.3.'
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/12/charted-the-religions-that-make-the-most-babies/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This is how the GOP are going to steal the election next year.

    Absolute sister fucking fascists.

    Breaking: AZ state Sen. Sonny Borrelli sends letter to counties telling them they aren't allowed to use machines to count ballots.

    Falsely claims that a Senate resolution - not approved by voters/governor - gives the legislature the authority to make this decision.


    https://twitter.com/JenAFifield/status/1660706293722800128

    Except the Arizona Secretary of State who will verify the election is a Democrat
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_of_Arizona#:~:text=The secretary also serves as,holder is Democrat Adrian Fontes.
    The key is to create confusion, push boundaries of acceptable behaviour, and seek to pressure officials or legislatures to junk elections they don't like. In Arizona a few of the recent elections were so tight that it was very close to having such a plan work.
    So, unless the Secretary of State is a Republican it is irrelevant
    Er, no. Are you of the sort that thinks January 6th shows there is nothing to worry about because it didn;t work...this time?

    That people attempt electoral fixes is very concerning (the bipartisan history of gerrymandering is well attested of course) - just managing to avoid a total collapse of electoral integrity in the face of partisan interference is massively concerning and not in the least 'irrelevant'.
    Party hacks have often tried to control presidential election results in the US, not just on the GOP side, see the large numbers of votes Chicago Democrat Mayor Daley 'found' for JFK in Illinois in 1960 v Nixon
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    So every African nation there is still well above global replacement rate and well above replacement rate. In Nigeria it is still only slightly down from 1950s levels.

    As I said, the world population is going to become increasingly African
    Dude:

    Nigeria is Bangladesh, but twenty years behind.

    And I didn't even cherry pick the countries. If I'd wanted to, I could have shown South Africa (2.37), Morocco (2.33) or Tunisia (2.09).

    Sure, the world will become more African. But we're barely more than a decade away from Africa's birth rate being below replacement.
    Of the 3 you picked, South African and Morocco still have a fertility rate above the global average and even Tunisia is only fractionally below replacement level.

    So the world will become increasingly African and there is no evidence at all Africa overall will move below replacement level, for starters it is far more religious than most of the developed world and religious populations under 45 have more children on average than the non religious
    "there is no evidence at all Africa overall will move below replacement level"

    When do you expect fertility rates to stop declining in Africa? Because if they do not, then it's only a matter of time before they fall below replacement levels.

    And you religious argument would be a lot more persuasive, if it wasn't for the fact that some of the most religious countries in the world have some of the lowest birthrates.
    Not in terms of most religious under 45 they don't.
    'Mean TFR 1970–1975 for the most secular countries was 2.8 children, for moderate 3.3 and for most religious 5.4. The corresponding values 2000–2005 were 1.8, 1.7 and 2.8. Several other studies also suggest that religiosity favors high TFR'
    https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-020-8331-7

    'According to Pew's data, the average Mormon can expect to make 3.4 babies in his or her lifetime. Jews, Catholics, and most flavors of Protestantism have fertility rates ranging from 2 to 2.5. At the low end of the baby-making spectrum you've got atheists, with 1.6 kids, and agnostics, who average only 1.3.'
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/12/charted-the-religions-that-make-the-most-babies/
    It looks to me like the trend is the same across all societies. The birthrate has fallen by 50-60% across the board, although the starting point is higher in religious societies.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,039
    Williamglenn - Try searching on the "grandmother hypothesis" for an explanation. Or just observe a few grandmothers with their grandchildren.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    edited May 2023
    darkage said:

    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!

    Nice to hear you've found somewhere you've not tried before and had a great meal.

    Not sure how 'down and outs' afford £12.50 for fish and chips though?! Even Rick Stein only charges £10.95.

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a4-chippy-menu-ta-150523.pdf
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    My daughter is getting married and I have to do the father of the bride speech. Probably not gushing enough but tempting all the same. Hmmm
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,813
    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    Not sure. Kingsley will be, is, remembered for Lucky Jim and The Old Devils which won the Booker. Martin's stuff will likely survive as his will surely be the "go to" material for anyone in the future interested in 1980/90s for example.
    Larkin, obviously , is an immortal now, his reputation having survived the drubbing it received in the years immediately after his death. High Windows and The Whitsun Weddings are just too good.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,680
    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Impressive

    “We have hand painted your name in pharaonic letters on an original handmade papyrus”

    And they really have



    It’s not enough tho. I want “we have slaughtered and sacrificed 17 cats to the goddess Bastet, and had them mummified and placed in a shape to resemble your ex wife; you will find them in the bed”

    That doesn’t say Leon!
    hmm is it just me or is this self doxxing?
    Mate, it’s random Egyptian letters from 2000BC. As doxxings go it’s quite obscure

    Next they will reveal my approximate postcode in a mixture of Cunieform and Gomeran Whistling

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbo_Gomero
    ..
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,813
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    My daughter is getting married and I have to do the father of the bride speech. Probably not gushing enough but tempting all the same. Hmmm
    There's always "This Be The Verse" of course...
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Labour is spend spend spend is it.

    Liz Truss crashed the economy
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,177

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Total Fertility Rates have dropped dramatically across the world.

    Iran - home of the Ayatollahs and the religious police - has a TFR of just 1.7.

    While nutters worry about too many people, the real challenge we're all going to be facing is depopulation and an inbalance between the aged and the young.

    This will screw with elections even more as the number of retired voters will exceed the number of working ones.

    Not in Africa. In Africa the TFR is still a high 4.1, even if a slight decline that is well above the global TFR of 2.3

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/fertility-rate#:~:text=The current fertility rate for,a 1.32% decline from 2020.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#:~:text=As of 2020, global TFR,is approaching a significant milestone.
    It's been declining faster in most African countries than anyone was expecting AFAIK.
    Really? African fertility rate is almost double Asian fertility rate of 2.2 and Oceanic fertility rate of 2.4 and more than double European fertility rate of 1.6, North American fertility rate of 1.8 and Latin American fertility rate of 2.0.

    Population wise at least the world is going to becoming increasingly African. Africa is also now the most religious continent and many parts like Nigeria seeing significant economic growth from a low base which will hopefully reduce emigration levels and pressures from attempted immigration to more developed nations as with the boats across the Mediterranean and Channel
    This is the world TFR:



    As a planet, we're now only a smidgen above replacement levels. And the trends are relentlessly downward.

    And Africa is following exactly the same paths as everywhere else. Birth rates are collapsing there too. They're just twenty years behind - say - Bangladesh.



    If that is the case then current retirement models eventually won't work anywhere.

    We'll all have to work until the last 2-3 years of our lives.
    I think that retirement systems will be the least of the world's problems if a declining population trend not only becomes established, but accelerates.

    Capitalism itself as an economic system depends on growth to function. Businesses will borrow to invest because they will expect to grow and so be able to pay back their debts in the future. If the population is shrinking, and particularly if it is shrinking rapidly, then the potential for future growth is much reduced, there's no borrowing for investment and instead the economy contracts - capitalism doesn't exactly do a steady state.

    And then, beyond economics, what are the psychological implications of being a young member of a species in irreversible decline, trending towards a population of zero? Not good, I would suggest.

    Now, sure, absent large-scale emigration to outer space, stabilising (or gently deflating for a limited period) the global population is a useful, perhaps even necessary thing. But it's going to require some deft handling and cultural change if it's going to avoid becoming a disaster.
    It's not capitalism or capitalism. It just is. Growth depends on more resources or in making more efficient use of existing resources.

    So it would increase the onus on making more efficient use of existing resources.
    Quite - we don’t need more long tons of pig iron per person. The Information Age is about exotic arrangement of atoms and electrons, after all.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,647
    kinabalu said:

    Regret over Britain’s decision to vote for Brexit has reached new highs, according to new polling tracking so-called “Bregret”.

    A YouGov survey shows the number of Britons saying it was right to vote to leave the European Union in 2016 dropping to its lowest level ever, at 31%…

    Only 9% of Britons now consider Brexit more of a success than a failure, according to the poll. Some 62% of people describe it as more of a failure. Even among those who voted Leave, 37% say Brexit has been more of a failure.


    https://apple.news/AzLeoQnLOTTeWHbAgQMK3hg

    Brexit will become the most Pyrrhic of Pyrrhic victories for the Tories. The Westminster Brexit omertà will break. The pressure increases, gradually, incrementally, inexorably. Soon - it might be a decade away, but it’s coming - there will be a huge electoral reward to reap for the party bold enough to pivot whole-heartedly to the EU.

    I'm actually quite surprised by these findings: I thought the Leavers would have had more loyalty to the cause. What all this must show is that hardly anyone gives a fig about abstract concepts such as sovereignty; it's only hard economics and tangible benefits that people care about. The spiritual stuff about Brexit was largely a chimera. It's all rather Orwell on Kipling and Empire.
    There needs to be an apology imo.
    I love curry I do, and saving the Great British Curry is an obvious Brexit success. No apologies for that.

    “Businesses are making use of the new post-Brexit migration system - a growing number of skilled workers from Africa and Asia are moving to Britain”

    https://news.sky.com/story/post-brexit-shift-sees-workers-from-asia-and-africa-plug-uk-staff-shortages-12886995

    Is it not a fact being in the EU stopped us from having our own system? Brexiteers were up front about this during the campaign, the number of skilled workers from outside the EU was capped, post Brexit it would be different.

    "By voting to leave the EU we can take back control of our immigration policies, save our curry houses and join the rest of the world”

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/brexit-will-save-uks-indian-food-industry-priti-patel/articleshow/52348340.cms

    I also recall a PB post from TSE where a lot of the migrants crossing channel in boats are Indian too. We currently have a government in Westminister very very close and helpful to India and Indians, which makes a change, and is showing a benefit because “the Indians are coming” is a lot better than “the Turks are coming” we were threatened with by vote leave.

    Then again, I love Turkish cuisine too. Poached egg on garlic yoghurt with hot sweet pepper flakes. Yum 😋


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    My daughter is getting married and I have to do the father of the bride speech. Probably not gushing enough but tempting all the same. Hmmm
    There's always "This Be The Verse" of course...
    Yes it is truly brilliant. But maybe not on topic.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,177

    Ghedebrav said:

    I’ve got two kids and frankly I’d sooner chop it off than have any more.

    I love em but our culture in the hyper-information era is not geared towards large families, particularly where both parents work (never mind what it’s like for single parents, and never mind the fact that today’s grandparents generally are not paying forward the service their own parents did them).

    I've got three and it is striking how much more work it is than having two. I think both my wife and I sometimes regret not having more, though. Children are the greatest joy one can have in life.
    I have single friends who are now wondering who they will depend on in old age. One lady is the only child with no other near relatives of anything like her age.
    It's probably practical, but I'm not sure I can think of a more depressing reason to have kids.
    I don't tend to worry about it as if things get that bad I'd just find a way to er.... well you know.
    Me, I'm planning on befriending a robot when it gets to that stage. Or something
    What is interesting is the actual response - people seem to club together in closer friendship groups. I suspect that some of the people I am thinking off will end up sharing a house together.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Odd that he didn't fall out of the plane window.

    Russian minister who criticised Vladimir Putin over Ukraine war mysteriously dies after falling fatally ill on flight to Moscow
    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1660746015299850260
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    We should embrace and adapt to falling birthrates (and being humans, we surely will).

    In the long-term a dramatically smaller global population would be great news for the planet. We should no longer assume growth is inevitable*, or even desirable. There's no reason why we cannot continue to develop better long-term health prospects through better health care. AI and robotics can be a help.

    *For years we have used GDP per capita as a measure of success but are we any happier as a nation than we were 50 years ago when GDP per capita was half what it is today?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592

    darkage said:

    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!

    Nice to hear you've found somewhere you've not tried before and had a great meal.

    Not sure how 'down and outs' afford £12.50 for fish and chips though?! Even Rick Stein only charges £10.95.

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a4-chippy-menu-ta-150523.pdf
    Back in late 2020.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Fascinating conservative article on what a terrible job Britain does in building homes. UK homes 20% smaller than in the 70s. The smallest in Europe and the most expensive/least energy efficient. The one thing I wasn't aware of was how so many homes in the rest of Europe are self build. Over 50% in many countries. Rather flies in the face of our supposed individualistic tendencies and shows that when it comes to property we are full on corporatists.

    https://sachameyers.medium.com/the-united-kingdoms-housing-crises-of-beauty-and-affordability-1303c9636f30

    Pours cold water on anyone who dares suggest modern Britain is a success. Will anyone dare to fix this disaster?

    Succesive post war Governments right into this century have actively worked against the self build trend. All the building regs are tailored to large developments and councils do as much as they can to discourage the idea.

    My father bought a piece of land next to a disused pub in 1969 and we lived in a caravan for 6 months whilst my parents built the place (They had a local bricky put up the shell but did everything else themselves from digging the foundations to topping out). They ended up with a house they could never have afforded to buy in a plot far larger than the average even then and my mother still lives in the same house. It is a wonderful way to create a home and something that is actively encouraged in many European countries.
    I have followed the debate about planning in a professional capacity for 15 years, and have observed that some ideas are intellectually disproven and destroyed over and over again but immediately re-emerge unharmed the next day, whatever happens... like groundhog day. One such idea is to deregulate, let people build, houses will be more plentiful and cheaper, beauty and creativity will be unleashed, etc. But it won't work like that, such a move will just create the same set of problems that resulted in the planning system being bought in to being back in 1947.

    On self build... the reality is that it is uneconomic compared with the economies of scale that exist with volume housebuilders so it just isn't an option unless a) you are in the building trade and can do it by calling in favours, b) you have very deep pockets or c) you are an extremely determined, exceptional individual. A lot of self build is not how you might imagine, people laying bricks etc themselves; it is project managing a professional team deliver a project, or just overseeing a design and build contract, and a lot of it goes wrong in some way or massively over budget.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,647
    edited May 2023

    kinabalu said:

    Regret over Britain’s decision to vote for Brexit has reached new highs, according to new polling tracking so-called “Bregret”.

    A YouGov survey shows the number of Britons saying it was right to vote to leave the European Union in 2016 dropping to its lowest level ever, at 31%…

    Only 9% of Britons now consider Brexit more of a success than a failure, according to the poll. Some 62% of people describe it as more of a failure. Even among those who voted Leave, 37% say Brexit has been more of a failure.


    https://apple.news/AzLeoQnLOTTeWHbAgQMK3hg

    Brexit will become the most Pyrrhic of Pyrrhic victories for the Tories. The Westminster Brexit omertà will break. The pressure increases, gradually, incrementally, inexorably. Soon - it might be a decade away, but it’s coming - there will be a huge electoral reward to reap for the party bold enough to pivot whole-heartedly to the EU.

    I'm actually quite surprised by these findings: I thought the Leavers would have had more loyalty to the cause. What all this must show is that hardly anyone gives a fig about abstract concepts such as sovereignty; it's only hard economics and tangible benefits that people care about. The spiritual stuff about Brexit was largely a chimera. It's all rather Orwell on Kipling and Empire.
    There needs to be an apology imo.
    I love curry I do, and saving the Great British Curry is an obvious Brexit success. No apologies for that.

    “Businesses are making use of the new post-Brexit migration system - a growing number of skilled workers from Africa and Asia are moving to Britain”

    https://news.sky.com/story/post-brexit-shift-sees-workers-from-asia-and-africa-plug-uk-staff-shortages-12886995

    Is it not a fact being in the EU stopped us from having our own system? Brexiteers were up front about this during the campaign, the number of skilled workers from outside the EU was capped, post Brexit it would be different.

    "By voting to leave the EU we can take back control of our immigration policies, save our curry houses and join the rest of the world”

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/brexit-will-save-uks-indian-food-industry-priti-patel/articleshow/52348340.cms

    I also recall a PB post from TSE where a lot of the migrants crossing channel in boats are Indian too. We currently have a government in Westminister very very close and helpful to India and Indians, which makes a change, and is showing a benefit because “the Indians are coming” is a lot better than “the Turks are coming” we were threatened with by vote leave.

    Then again, I love Turkish cuisine too. Poached egg on garlic yoghurt with hot sweet pepper flakes. Yum 😋


    I thought I would get retaliation in first before anyone posts immigration into UK is crap when I’m busy tomorrow. Despite ugly history of “rivers of blood” speech and that, we are probably closer to India now than any time since Lady Mountbatten was bonking Primeminster Nehru.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Labour has taken a very interesting approach to migration this time around. Certainly a NZ Labor feel about this policy.

    This is not the same team that lost in 2015, this is clearly the best team they’ve had for well over a decade
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    eek said:

    darkage said:

    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!

    Nice to hear you've found somewhere you've not tried before and had a great meal.

    Not sure how 'down and outs' afford £12.50 for fish and chips though?! Even Rick Stein only charges £10.95.

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a4-chippy-menu-ta-150523.pdf
    Back in late 2020.
    It's the menu on the current website.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    eek said:

    darkage said:

    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!

    Nice to hear you've found somewhere you've not tried before and had a great meal.

    Not sure how 'down and outs' afford £12.50 for fish and chips though?! Even Rick Stein only charges £10.95.

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a4-chippy-menu-ta-150523.pdf
    Back in late 2020.
    its £22 on this menu

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Barnes-sample-menu-20.03.23.pdf
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    Completely OT but the classic car community have spent the afternoon tracking a stolen Mini across the south of England.

    I don't think there is anything in the world I would enjoy more than tailing this thief until the police turn up. Imagine the fuel anxiety!

    https://twitter.com/PaulWoodford84/status/1660695906360999936?s=20
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,840
    AlistairM said:

    Odd that he didn't fall out of the plane window.

    Russian minister who criticised Vladimir Putin over Ukraine war mysteriously dies after falling fatally ill on flight to Moscow
    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1660746015299850260

    Has it happened yet again? On Saturday Russia’s deputy science minister, Pyotr Kucherenko, 46, fell ill on a flight from Cuba & died after an emergency landing. After Putin invaded Ukraine last year, Kucherenko described it privately to a journalist as ‘this fascist invasion’.

    https://twitter.com/JohnSimpsonNews/status/1660621627829153793
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!

    Nice to hear you've found somewhere you've not tried before and had a great meal.

    Not sure how 'down and outs' afford £12.50 for fish and chips though?! Even Rick Stein only charges £10.95.

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a4-chippy-menu-ta-150523.pdf
    Back in late 2020.
    It's the menu on the current website.
    "Add Chips for £3.95"
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    darkage said:

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!

    Nice to hear you've found somewhere you've not tried before and had a great meal.

    Not sure how 'down and outs' afford £12.50 for fish and chips though?! Even Rick Stein only charges £10.95.

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a4-chippy-menu-ta-150523.pdf
    Back in late 2020.
    its £22 on this menu

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Barnes-sample-menu-20.03.23.pdf
    That's not a chippy though is it?

    https://www.rickstein.com/restaurants/steins-fish-and-chips/
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    edited May 2023

    kinabalu said:

    Regret over Britain’s decision to vote for Brexit has reached new highs, according to new polling tracking so-called “Bregret”.

    A YouGov survey shows the number of Britons saying it was right to vote to leave the European Union in 2016 dropping to its lowest level ever, at 31%…

    Only 9% of Britons now consider Brexit more of a success than a failure, according to the poll. Some 62% of people describe it as more of a failure. Even among those who voted Leave, 37% say Brexit has been more of a failure.


    https://apple.news/AzLeoQnLOTTeWHbAgQMK3hg

    Brexit will become the most Pyrrhic of Pyrrhic victories for the Tories. The Westminster Brexit omertà will break. The pressure increases, gradually, incrementally, inexorably. Soon - it might be a decade away, but it’s coming - there will be a huge electoral reward to reap for the party bold enough to pivot whole-heartedly to the EU.

    I'm actually quite surprised by these findings: I thought the Leavers would have had more loyalty to the cause. What all this must show is that hardly anyone gives a fig about abstract concepts such as sovereignty; it's only hard economics and tangible benefits that people care about. The spiritual stuff about Brexit was largely a chimera. It's all rather Orwell on Kipling and Empire.
    There needs to be an apology imo.
    I love curry I do, and saving the Great British Curry is an obvious Brexit success. No apologies for that.

    “Businesses are making use of the new post-Brexit migration system - a growing number of skilled workers from Africa and Asia are moving to Britain”

    https://news.sky.com/story/post-brexit-shift-sees-workers-from-asia-and-africa-plug-uk-staff-shortages-12886995

    Is it not a fact being in the EU stopped us from having our own system? Brexiteers were up front about this during the campaign, the number of skilled workers from outside the EU was capped, post Brexit it would be different.

    "By voting to leave the EU we can take back control of our immigration policies, save our curry houses and join the rest of the world”

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/brexit-will-save-uks-indian-food-industry-priti-patel/articleshow/52348340.cms

    I also recall a PB post from TSE where a lot of the migrants crossing channel in boats are Indian too. We currently have a government in Westminister very very close and helpful to India and Indians, which makes a change, and is showing a benefit because “the Indians are coming” is a lot better than “the Turks are coming” we were threatened with by vote leave.

    Then again, I love Turkish cuisine too. Poached egg on garlic yoghurt with hot sweet pepper flakes. Yum 😋


    Strictly speaking it was a national political choice to restrict the numbers of non EU immigrants as this wasn't an EU competence. Nevertheless much higher immigration is the clear consequence of Brexit even if there's no causation. It's worth understanding the implications given there are no Brexit benefits, but we aren't going to rejoin either.

    This new immigration, largely from India is mostly well educated, quite well paid and going into the cities. It won't do anything for levelling up in already deprived areas but it could help boost the economies of cities, which will become more ethnically diverse and whose youngish populations voted Remain anyway.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,177
    AlistairM said:

    Odd that he didn't fall out of the plane window.

    Russian minister who criticised Vladimir Putin over Ukraine war mysteriously dies after falling fatally ill on flight to Moscow
    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1660746015299850260

    Hmmmmm

    image
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049

    Labour has taken a very interesting approach to migration this time around. Certainly a NZ Labor feel about this policy.

    This is not the same team that lost in 2015, this is clearly the best team they’ve had for well over a decade

    That’s not saying much.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    carnforth said:

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!

    Nice to hear you've found somewhere you've not tried before and had a great meal.

    Not sure how 'down and outs' afford £12.50 for fish and chips though?! Even Rick Stein only charges £10.95.

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a4-chippy-menu-ta-150523.pdf
    Back in late 2020.
    It's the menu on the current website.
    "Add Chips for £3.95"
    I am going to have to eat humble pie rather than fish and chips because I missed that.

    Mea cupla!
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870

    carnforth said:

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!

    Nice to hear you've found somewhere you've not tried before and had a great meal.

    Not sure how 'down and outs' afford £12.50 for fish and chips though?! Even Rick Stein only charges £10.95.

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a4-chippy-menu-ta-150523.pdf
    Back in late 2020.
    It's the menu on the current website.
    "Add Chips for £3.95"
    I am going to have to eat humble pie rather than fish and chips because I missed that.

    Mea cupla!
    Well, it is ridiculous to title the box "Fish and Chips" and then put "Add Chips" below, so don't feel too bad.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,843

    Labour has taken a very interesting approach to migration this time around. Certainly a NZ Labor feel about this policy.

    This is not the same team that lost in 2015, this is clearly the best team they’ve had for well over a decade

    Yaaawn
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870
    Down and outs, as anyone knows, eat tea and two slice:

    http://www.fourpoundsflour.com/living-history-tea-and-two-slices/

    (Still available at Wetherspoons: £1.34 for the bread and butter and £1.45 for the unlimited sugary milky tea, at my nearest, per the app)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!

    Nice to hear you've found somewhere you've not tried before and had a great meal.

    Not sure how 'down and outs' afford £12.50 for fish and chips though?! Even Rick Stein only charges £10.95.

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a4-chippy-menu-ta-150523.pdf
    Back in late 2020.
    It's the menu on the current website.
    "Add Chips for £3.95"
    I am going to have to eat humble pie rather than fish and chips because I missed that.

    Mea cupla!
    Well, it is ridiculous to title the box "Fish and Chips" and then put "Add Chips" below, so don't feel too bad.
    I shall skate over the faux pas.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    @JohnO called it right once more.

    Dominic Raab will stand down as an MP at the next general election, calling time on his parliamentary career just a month after he quit the Cabinet over bullying claims from civil servants.

    The Telegraph has seen an exchange of letters between the former deputy prime minister and the chairman of his local Conservative Association dated last Friday explaining his decision.

    Mr Raab wrote: “I have become increasingly concerned over the last few years about the pressure the job has placed on my young family.” His sons Peter and Joshua are respectively aged 10 and 8.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/05/22/dominic-raab-quits-politics-family-pressure-resignation/
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    I've just had the most outsanding grilled fish and chips for £12.50. It was in a cash only chippie in a dodgy part of town with a customer base largely involving the local down and outs. It was recommended by a local filmmaker in a youtube video. Always worth trying new things out!

    Nice to hear you've found somewhere you've not tried before and had a great meal.

    Not sure how 'down and outs' afford £12.50 for fish and chips though?! Even Rick Stein only charges £10.95.

    https://www.rickstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a4-chippy-menu-ta-150523.pdf
    Back in late 2020.
    It's the menu on the current website.
    "Add Chips for £3.95"
    I am going to have to eat humble pie rather than fish and chips because I missed that.

    Mea cupla!
    Well, it is ridiculous to title the box "Fish and Chips" and then put "Add Chips" below, so don't feel too bad.
    I shall skate over the faux pas.
    Talk about yer phishing!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,238
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    My daughter is getting married and I have to do the father of the bride speech. Probably not gushing enough but tempting all the same. Hmmm
    As long as you don't go thinking that you are in court and jump up shouting "Objection!" half way through the ceremony.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    Labour looking to compel all DC pension schemes to put 5% of their funds into a govt ‘growth’ fund.

    It is no wonder some people distrust pensions as the rules see, to chop and change at will however your money is tied up and cannot be accessed for many years.

    https://www.ft.com/content/03593281-2a22-4e9a-919b-cc346384e455
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited May 2023

    @JohnO called it right once more.

    Dominic Raab will stand down as an MP at the next general election, calling time on his parliamentary career just a month after he quit the Cabinet over bullying claims from civil servants.

    The Telegraph has seen an exchange of letters between the former deputy prime minister and the chairman of his local Conservative Association dated last Friday explaining his decision.

    Mr Raab wrote: “I have become increasingly concerned over the last few years about the pressure the job has placed on my young family.” His sons Peter and Joshua are respectively aged 10 and 8.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/05/22/dominic-raab-quits-politics-family-pressure-resignation/

    I think that’s unfair of the tele to publish that, particularly the last bit, identifying/naming his kids.

    Not cricket.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    My daughter is getting married and I have to do the father of the bride speech. Probably not gushing enough but tempting all the same. Hmmm

    O weddings long ago.

    The Whitsun Weddings couples are playing funerals now.

    The fathers with broad belts under their suits
    And seamy foreheads; mothers loud and fat;
    An uncle shouting smut; and then the perms,
    The nylon gloves and jewellery-substitutes,
    The lemons, mauves, and olive-ochres that

    Marked off the girls unreally from the rest.



  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,714

    kinabalu said:

    Regret over Britain’s decision to vote for Brexit has reached new highs, according to new polling tracking so-called “Bregret”.

    A YouGov survey shows the number of Britons saying it was right to vote to leave the European Union in 2016 dropping to its lowest level ever, at 31%…

    Only 9% of Britons now consider Brexit more of a success than a failure, according to the poll. Some 62% of people describe it as more of a failure. Even among those who voted Leave, 37% say Brexit has been more of a failure.


    https://apple.news/AzLeoQnLOTTeWHbAgQMK3hg

    Brexit will become the most Pyrrhic of Pyrrhic victories for the Tories. The Westminster Brexit omertà will break. The pressure increases, gradually, incrementally, inexorably. Soon - it might be a decade away, but it’s coming - there will be a huge electoral reward to reap for the party bold enough to pivot whole-heartedly to the EU.

    I'm actually quite surprised by these findings: I thought the Leavers would have had more loyalty to the cause. What all this must show is that hardly anyone gives a fig about abstract concepts such as sovereignty; it's only hard economics and tangible benefits that people care about. The spiritual stuff about Brexit was largely a chimera. It's all rather Orwell on Kipling and Empire.
    There needs to be an apology imo.
    I love curry I do, and saving the Great British Curry is an obvious Brexit success. No apologies for that.

    “Businesses are making use of the new post-Brexit migration system - a growing number of skilled workers from Africa and Asia are moving to Britain”

    https://news.sky.com/story/post-brexit-shift-sees-workers-from-asia-and-africa-plug-uk-staff-shortages-12886995

    Is it not a fact being in the EU stopped us from having our own system? Brexiteers were up front about this during the campaign, the number of skilled workers from outside the EU was capped, post Brexit it would be different.

    "By voting to leave the EU we can take back control of our immigration policies, save our curry houses and join the rest of the world”

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/brexit-will-save-uks-indian-food-industry-priti-patel/articleshow/52348340.cms

    I also recall a PB post from TSE where a lot of the migrants crossing channel in boats are Indian too. We currently have a government in Westminister very very close and helpful to India and Indians, which makes a change, and is showing a benefit because “the Indians are coming” is a lot better than “the Turks are coming” we were threatened with by vote leave.

    Then again, I love Turkish cuisine too. Poached egg on garlic yoghurt with hot sweet pepper flakes. Yum 😋


    I thought I would get retaliation in first before anyone posts immigration into UK is crap when I’m busy tomorrow. Despite ugly history of “rivers of blood” speech and that, we are probably closer to India now than any time since Lady Mountbatten was bonking Primeminster Nehru.
    It's a dizzying irony that Nigel Farage and Brexit will probably end up doing more to 'rub the Right's nose in diversity' than Tony Blair ever could.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    My daughter is getting married and I have to do the father of the bride speech. Probably not gushing enough but tempting all the same. Hmmm
    Congratulations.

    I’m happy to help you write the speech.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    @JohnO called it right once more.

    Dominic Raab will stand down as an MP at the next general election, calling time on his parliamentary career just a month after he quit the Cabinet over bullying claims from civil servants.

    The Telegraph has seen an exchange of letters between the former deputy prime minister and the chairman of his local Conservative Association dated last Friday explaining his decision.

    Mr Raab wrote: “I have become increasingly concerned over the last few years about the pressure the job has placed on my young family.” His sons Peter and Joshua are respectively aged 10 and 8.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/05/22/dominic-raab-quits-politics-family-pressure-resignation/

    Fair enough and he has had a high profile political career doing some big Cabinet posts and understandable if he wants to spend more time with his family. Though I expect he has also become concerned about the increasing narrowness of his majority and growing quantity of LD Focus leaflets and barcharts too which I am sure played a role in not standing again in his constituency next time
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    My daughter is getting married and I have to do the father of the bride speech. Probably not gushing enough but tempting all the same. Hmmm
    Better bet that Rowan Atkinson's Father of the Bride speech.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    I can’t let this day go by without referring to Martin Amis’s collection “The Moronic Inferno”. I have Money and London Fields but of all his books I enjoyed that the most. Brilliant, brilliant journalism, mainly about America.
    His reviews of JG Ballard and his sensational pieces on a serial killer of children in Los Angles stand out. His piece on the latter repetitiously stated, in accordance with the message of the State: “Never go with strangers” only for the pay off “but they do”.
    And the Ballard from memory, “you finish the book baffled and confused but that is only half the story. Then, you wait for the story to haunt you. And it does.”
    He struggled to keep this up over a whole novel, a bit Tarantino like, he did brilliant scenes but struggled with the overarching narrative arc. But boy could that man write.

    My unverifiable prediction is, though talented, he won't be remembered in a few generations time. As we all know his similarly talented father was a big mate of Larkin. Kingsley and Martin both made fortunes and celebrity from their talent - good luck to them - but if you ask me Will you bother to read 'Lucky Jim' or 'London Fields' again the answer is No.

    Larkin couldn't make a living from writing poetry. But it will still be read in 500 years time.

    Not his best effort, but this is his poem on the birth of Martin's sister.
    I'd rather have this than her brother's novels:

    Tightly-folded bud,
    I have wished you something
    None of the others would:
    Not the usual stuff
    About being beautiful,
    Or running off a spring
    Of innocence and love —
    They will all wish you that,
    And should it prove possible,
    Well, you’re a lucky girl.

    But if it shouldn’t, then
    May you be ordinary;
    Have, like other women,
    An average of talents:
    Not ugly, not good-looking,
    Nothing uncustomary
    To pull you off your balance,
    That, unworkable itself,
    Stops all the rest from working.
    In fact, may you be dull —
    If that is what a skilled,
    Vigilant, flexible,
    Unemphasised, enthralled
    Catching of happiness is called.


    My daughter is getting married and I have to do the father of the bride speech. Probably not gushing enough but tempting all the same. Hmmm
    Better bet that Rowan Atkinson's Father of the Bride speech.
    I keep threatening to give that speech at my daughters wedding. :smile:
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65675247

    Global military expert dropped from a conference because of some old tweets critical of (non-military) government policy.

    These free-speech-loving Tories do seem to have a problem with actual free speech…
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983
    FF43 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Regret over Britain’s decision to vote for Brexit has reached new highs, according to new polling tracking so-called “Bregret”.

    A YouGov survey shows the number of Britons saying it was right to vote to leave the European Union in 2016 dropping to its lowest level ever, at 31%…

    Only 9% of Britons now consider Brexit more of a success than a failure, according to the poll. Some 62% of people describe it as more of a failure. Even among those who voted Leave, 37% say Brexit has been more of a failure.


    https://apple.news/AzLeoQnLOTTeWHbAgQMK3hg

    Brexit will become the most Pyrrhic of Pyrrhic victories for the Tories. The Westminster Brexit omertà will break. The pressure increases, gradually, incrementally, inexorably. Soon - it might be a decade away, but it’s coming - there will be a huge electoral reward to reap for the party bold enough to pivot whole-heartedly to the EU.

    I'm actually quite surprised by these findings: I thought the Leavers would have had more loyalty to the cause. What all this must show is that hardly anyone gives a fig about abstract concepts such as sovereignty; it's only hard economics and tangible benefits that people care about. The spiritual stuff about Brexit was largely a chimera. It's all rather Orwell on Kipling and Empire.
    There needs to be an apology imo.
    I love curry I do, and saving the Great British Curry is an obvious Brexit success. No apologies for that.

    “Businesses are making use of the new post-Brexit migration system - a growing number of skilled workers from Africa and Asia are moving to Britain”

    https://news.sky.com/story/post-brexit-shift-sees-workers-from-asia-and-africa-plug-uk-staff-shortages-12886995

    Is it not a fact being in the EU stopped us from having our own system? Brexiteers were up front about this during the campaign, the number of skilled workers from outside the EU was capped, post Brexit it would be different.

    "By voting to leave the EU we can take back control of our immigration policies, save our curry houses and join the rest of the world”

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/brexit-will-save-uks-indian-food-industry-priti-patel/articleshow/52348340.cms

    I also recall a PB post from TSE where a lot of the migrants crossing channel in boats are Indian too. We currently have a government in Westminister very very close and helpful to India and Indians, which makes a change, and is showing a benefit because “the Indians are coming” is a lot better than “the Turks are coming” we were threatened with by vote leave.

    Then again, I love Turkish cuisine too. Poached egg on garlic yoghurt with hot sweet pepper flakes. Yum 😋


    Strictly speaking it was a national political choice to restrict the numbers of non EU immigrants as this wasn't an EU competence. Nevertheless much higher immigration is the clear consequence of Brexit even if there's no causation. It's worth understanding the implications given there are no Brexit benefits, but we aren't going to rejoin either.

    This new immigration, largely from India is mostly well educated, quite well paid and going into the cities. It won't do anything for levelling up in already deprived areas but it could help boost the economies of cities, which will become more ethnically diverse and whose youngish populations voted Remain anyway.
    My next door neighbour here in France is having his place renovated. He's got in a couple of Romanian builders who are fantastically skilled. They're just here for ten days then they go back. You can't get a French builder for love nor money at the moment. Even the Romanians are stacked out with work at home. This is where the UK lose out. You don't have the people you need when you need them. The Brexit rules are designed to make everything difficult.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    HYUFD said:

    @JohnO called it right once more.

    Dominic Raab will stand down as an MP at the next general election, calling time on his parliamentary career just a month after he quit the Cabinet over bullying claims from civil servants.

    The Telegraph has seen an exchange of letters between the former deputy prime minister and the chairman of his local Conservative Association dated last Friday explaining his decision.

    Mr Raab wrote: “I have become increasingly concerned over the last few years about the pressure the job has placed on my young family.” His sons Peter and Joshua are respectively aged 10 and 8.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/05/22/dominic-raab-quits-politics-family-pressure-resignation/

    Fair enough and he has had a high profile political career doing some big Cabinet posts and understandable if he wants to spend more time with his family. Though I expect he has also become concerned about the increasing narrowness of his majority and growing quantity of LD Focus leaflets and barcharts too which I am sure played a role in not standing again in his constituency next time
    He knows he’s going to lose, and doesn’t want a were-you-up-for-Raab moment.
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