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Starmer looks set to become PM but will LAB have a majority? – politicalbetting.com

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  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,645
    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    It's OK because the government is controlling immigration now that we have taken back control.
    Immigration is the one Brexit benefit according to the OBR analysis. Loss of investment and suppression of trade worse than it expected, but higher than expected immigration partly compensated, confirming their prediction of an overall 4% damage to the economy caused by Brexit.

    I think this means the UK will necessarily be more invested in high immigration outside of the EU than it was as a member. It no longer has the choice.
    I may be misunderstanding this, but surely there is no point to (picking numbers out of the air) a 1% increase in GNP if we also have a 1% increase in population? The country gets richer, but those riches have to be shared more widely - so individually, we don't get any richer.
    Immigration is a wash, I believe. Each immigrant will add as much to the economy as they increase the population. But overall GDP does matter for certain things including tax receipts and immigration can help productivity (another Brexit loss).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    The tastelessness is incroyable


    A great shot. Who's the photographer?
    We sure it's not AI ?

    The girl on the right (As we look at it) / her left has an extraordinarily long forearm. Also no thumbs showing, though they could be hidden.

    Perhaps it is a real photo though and I'm doing a disservice.
    Congratulations. You are the first PB-er to guess that these images are entirely fake. The women, the clothes, the locations, everything

    I put a ten word prompt into the latest version of Midjourney (which is now mindblowingly good). Images so good roger - a professional - wondered who the photographer might be

    This is where we are. I could have put those on Twitter and said “omg Russia is using devastated Ukraine as location for fashion shoots” and - judging by the reaction here - 90% of people would have believed it. And why not? Unless you examine with unceasing care the images are entirely convincing. Even at the granular level you cannot be sure. It’s a guess either way


    That is where we are. Welcome to the deepfake world of Total Untruth (and also the end of photography, modelling, location scouts, vogue shoots etc)
    No blowing my own trumpet (not least cos I work in advertising so am used to looking critically at imagery, plus the premise seem to me to be suspiciously provocative - and then considering the source... :wink: ) but the second image in particular looked pretty obviously AI - the arm thing, clearly, but also more general vague superimpositionary uncanniness. The first one looked more real, for sure.

    Agree that it illustrates how easily people can be fooled on Socials - 'twas ever thus with words, but now images add a new dimension.
    I have half a dozen images like the first. I just wanted to vary it

    Fact is fake AI photos are now way beyond the uncanny valley and living amongst us

    Advertising as we know it is finished, for a start
    I doubt that but maybe editorial fashion photography will be which would be a shame. I spent my first 20 years working as a fashion photographer and without editorial fashion there are very few ways into it
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,470
    Btw I concocted and procured those AI photos in about 5 minutes

    I could have spent 30 minutes honing the prompt and getting even more believable images to the extent NO ONE could possibly know if they are real or not

    Truth is dead, long live the pre generative post truth
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,560
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    Now, last year’s figures will be somewhat unusual, because of Ukraine and Hong Kong. The Ukranians are mostly women and children to intend to leave at the earliest opportunity once the war finishes, and the vast majority are not in their own housing but staying with families in the UK. The HK immigrants were a one-off as the country got taken over by China, but will likely be staying for the long term

    Yes, at some point, there will need to be radical solutions.

    My suggestion, would be a variation on how immigration works in where I live. If there’s a need for low-skilled immigrants, you offer a number of single people under 30 from most countries, a two-year non-renewable work permit. You’d need to limit the numbers, to protect British unskilled workers and stop a race back to minimum wage that we had under FoM, but the important thing is that these are temporary migrants expected to leave once their visa expires.
    Not sure inviting lots of people in but explicitly making sure they are not aligned with the long term of the UK but instead of working out how cash they can extract in 2 years is sensible.

    How about we recognise the reality of our demographics means we will have immigration, whatever politicians promise, so we get on with builiding the necessary houses and infrastructure instead of pretending?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,803
    Last time Charles Kennedy outflanked Blair to the left my Town voted LD

    https://twitter.com/FaultFinderUK/status/1656621869259276289
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,267
    Dialup said:

    ROFL Kemi is hopeless

    Yes, Kemi is finished (sorry Dan). Although it's weird: for a moment her star shone so powerfully amongst the Tory Right. But who's next? All the evidence suggests Penny, but the Tories, their admirers and the Daily Mail in particular must agree to a significant bout of collective amnesia over the Wokey Cokey stuff.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,003

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    How accurate are the Telegraph, though, when they speculate about things?
    Oddly it's the Tele and their ilk who now seem keenest to rub the Right's nose in diversity. I wonder why?
    They seem to like to foster fears of the country 'getting swamped'. It can't be good for the mindset of their loyal readers hearing this sort of thing day in day out.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,951
    Leon said:

    Btw I concocted and procured those AI photos in about 5 minutes

    I could have spent 30 minutes honing the prompt and getting even more believable images to the extent NO ONE could possibly know if they are real or not

    You can reverse image search them on Yandex (way better than Google but Putin gets your NI number). If they don't show up on that they are probably AI crap.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,645
    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,958
    edited May 2023
    Russia's failure in Ukraine would always eventually be followed by a fight between different Russian factions over who was to blame. I don't think we're at the stage yet where that fight is more important than the fight against Ukraine, but when we are, the war in Ukraine will be nearly over

    https://twitter.com/DrRadchenko/status/1656911407156285441

    "Sergey Radchenko
    @DrRadchenko
    Lol. Prigozhin trolls Shoigu, citing the Defense Minister’s “many years of experience conducting military operations” (Shoigu is widely known for lacking any such experience). The daggers are out. Shoigu’s probable plan is to let Wagner get annihilated."
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,777
    edited May 2023
    For those who were following this story yesterday:

    Commentator Tim Pool responds to The NY Times story, that described his podcast as ‘a far-right vector for conspiracy theories’.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=3ZuH-61ufgk
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,777
    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
    More easily documented, and thus reported upon.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,003

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    AlistairM said:

    Speeding Archbishop.

    Archbishop of Canterbury fined £510 and given three points on his licence for speeding

    Cameras caught him doing 25mph on a 20mph road in London last October:

    https://twitter.com/kayaburgess/status/1656918619387838464

    £510 pounds for 5mph over the limit?! Wow!

    I should be quite grateful for my £90 course offer for 75 in a 60 then, at the archbishop's rate it would have been over £1500.
    If it were up to me, you'd be banned for 75 in a 60.
    I bet it was a variable limit on a motorway.
    Hmmm, I'll wind that back slightly if so. I was picturing a single carriageway A-road, but you're right to remind me that context matters.
    I feel I'm tempting fate writing this, but I was flashed by a camera on the M25 two weeks ago. It was at 2am and it was the first gantry with limits with it set to 50mph. I refuse to brake unnecessarily on a motorway so just got of the gas. I reckon I was doing 65mph when I went through it, but my view is, they need to give you a chance to slow down. Going from 70 to 50 and doing so on a gantry with not much sighting (it was the one after you go over the M4) is a bit off in my opinion.

    Anyway, not heard anything, so maybe they don't care or someone has shown some common sense.
    Hope you escape but I'd say wait a while longer before relaxing. I got one recently that came so late it was past the date for responding to it.
    Not valid then......
    Really? I settled it anyway.
    https://moneynerd.co.uk/speeding-fine-received-after-14-days/
    Ah I don't think that applies in my case. The ticket was sent within 14 days but took weeks to percolate through the mail to my doormat.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,877
    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    It's OK because the government is controlling immigration now that we have taken back control.
    Immigration is the one Brexit benefit according to the OBR analysis. Loss of investment and suppression of trade worse than it expected, but higher than expected immigration partly compensated, confirming their prediction of an overall 4% damage to the economy caused by Brexit.

    I think this means the UK will necessarily be more invested in high immigration outside of the EU than it was as a member. It no longer has the choice.
    I may be misunderstanding this, but surely there is no point to (picking numbers out of the air) a 1% increase in GNP if we also have a 1% increase in population? The country gets richer, but those riches have to be shared more widely - so individually, we don't get any richer.
    Immigration is a wash, I believe. Each immigrant will add as much to the economy as they increase the population. But overall GDP does matter for certain things including tax receipts and immigration can help productivity (another Brexit loss).
    It's hardly a "Brexit loss" when immigration is actually increasing. It depends on who is coming over here, and how they compare to those who came before.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,470
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Btw I concocted and procured those AI photos in about 5 minutes

    I could have spent 30 minutes honing the prompt and getting even more believable images to the extent NO ONE could possibly know if they are real or not

    You can reverse image search them on Yandex (way better than Google but Putin gets your NI number). If they don't show up on that they are probably AI crap.
    No. Any image searcher is about to be swamped by trillions - literally, trillions - of fake AI images. No machine will be able to keep up with the machines
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    edited May 2023
    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,645
    edited May 2023
    Eabhal said:

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    It's OK because the government is controlling immigration now that we have taken back control.
    Immigration is the one Brexit benefit according to the OBR analysis. Loss of investment and suppression of trade worse than it expected, but higher than expected immigration partly compensated, confirming their prediction of an overall 4% damage to the economy caused by Brexit.

    I think this means the UK will necessarily be more invested in high immigration outside of the EU than it was as a member. It no longer has the choice.
    I may be misunderstanding this, but surely there is no point to (picking numbers out of the air) a 1% increase in GNP if we also have a 1% increase in population? The country gets richer, but those riches have to be shared more widely - so individually, we don't get any richer.
    Immigration is a wash, I believe. Each immigrant will add as much to the economy as they increase the population. But overall GDP does matter for certain things including tax receipts and immigration can help productivity (another Brexit loss).
    It's hardly a "Brexit loss" when immigration is actually increasing. It depends on who is coming over here, and how they compare to those who came before.
    Productivity is a Brexit loss unless compensated by certain types of immigration. The productivity loss is inherent to Brexit, while immigration was a largely a national competence when in the EU. Previous UK governments could have chosen a similarly high immigration path before Brexit.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 948
    edited May 2023
    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    It's OK because the government is controlling immigration now that we have taken back control.
    Immigration is the one Brexit benefit according to the OBR analysis. Loss of investment and suppression of trade worse than it expected, but higher than expected immigration partly compensated, confirming their prediction of an overall 4% damage to the economy caused by Brexit.

    I think this means the UK will necessarily be more invested in high immigration outside of the EU than it was as a member. It no longer has the choice.
    I may be misunderstanding this, but surely there is no point to (picking numbers out of the air) a 1% increase in GNP if we also have a 1% increase in population? The country gets richer, but those riches have to be shared more widely - so individually, we don't get any richer.
    Immigration is a wash, I believe. Each immigrant will add as much to the economy as they increase the population. But overall GDP does matter for certain things including tax receipts and immigration can help productivity (another Brexit loss).
    In which case, immigration is going to be largely bad for us - the pressure it causes on housing alone does more damage than the benefits, and we should be targeting net zero migration.

    My suggestion would be that we ditch almost all the currently permitted "skilled worker" immigration, requiring you to need a job offer at £75k to come.

    I would also tighten up the family reunion rules, in particular blocking family reunion immigration unless one of the persons is a British Citizen (not merely someone with indefinite leave to remain).

    The student numbers thing is complicated - in theory students shouldn't add to the net migration numbers (for each one who comes, another should go) - what we need to do is to stop the leakage where people come as students and then don't go - given this is currently something like 26% of those coming on student visas it needs fixing urgently.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,958
    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    It's OK because the government is controlling immigration now that we have taken back control.
    Immigration is the one Brexit benefit according to the OBR analysis. Loss of investment and suppression of trade worse than it expected, but higher than expected immigration partly compensated, confirming their prediction of an overall 4% damage to the economy caused by Brexit.

    I think this means the UK will necessarily be more invested in high immigration outside of the EU than it was as a member. It no longer has the choice.
    I may be misunderstanding this, but surely there is no point to (picking numbers out of the air) a 1% increase in GNP if we also have a 1% increase in population? The country gets richer, but those riches have to be shared more widely - so individually, we don't get any richer.
    Immigration is a wash, I believe. Each immigrant will add as much to the economy as they increase the population. But overall GDP does matter for certain things including tax receipts and immigration can help productivity (another Brexit loss).
    Immigration will reduce the burden of the national debt per capita. Certainly the contrary situation, of net emigration and a shrinking population left behind to service the huge mountain of accumulated debt, would be pretty uncomfortable in its own way.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,777

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    Now, last year’s figures will be somewhat unusual, because of Ukraine and Hong Kong. The Ukranians are mostly women and children to intend to leave at the earliest opportunity once the war finishes, and the vast majority are not in their own housing but staying with families in the UK. The HK immigrants were a one-off as the country got taken over by China, but will likely be staying for the long term

    Yes, at some point, there will need to be radical solutions.

    My suggestion, would be a variation on how immigration works in where I live. If there’s a need for low-skilled immigrants, you offer a number of single people under 30 from most countries, a two-year non-renewable work permit. You’d need to limit the numbers, to protect British unskilled workers and stop a race back to minimum wage that we had under FoM, but the important thing is that these are temporary migrants expected to leave once their visa expires.
    Not sure inviting lots of people in but explicitly making sure they are not aligned with the long term of the UK but instead of working out how cash they can extract in 2 years is sensible.

    How about we recognise the reality of our demographics means we will have immigration, whatever politicians promise, so we get on with builiding the necessary houses and infrastructure instead of pretending?
    My brother got a similar visa in Australia. He stayed there for just under a year, did a few different jobs. It was make very clear to him, that he had no recourse to public funds, had to leave when his visa expired, and that he’d be arrested if he overstayed.

    I say we look at what works elsewhere in the world, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,883
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    How accurate are the Telegraph, though, when they speculate about things?
    Oddly it's the Tele and their ilk who now seem keenest to rub the Right's nose in diversity. I wonder why?
    They seem to like to foster fears of the country 'getting swamped'. It can't be good for the mindset of their loyal readers hearing this sort of thing day in day out.
    Despite ‘Brexit not being about immigration’ I guess Brexit betrayed is the long term strategy.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,645
    ..
    theProle said:

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    It's OK because the government is controlling immigration now that we have taken back control.
    Immigration is the one Brexit benefit according to the OBR analysis. Loss of investment and suppression of trade worse than it expected, but higher than expected immigration partly compensated, confirming their prediction of an overall 4% damage to the economy caused by Brexit.

    I think this means the UK will necessarily be more invested in high immigration outside of the EU than it was as a member. It no longer has the choice.
    I may be misunderstanding this, but surely there is no point to (picking numbers out of the air) a 1% increase in GNP if we also have a 1% increase in population? The country gets richer, but those riches have to be shared more widely - so individually, we don't get any richer.
    Immigration is a wash, I believe. Each immigrant will add as much to the economy as they increase the population. But overall GDP does matter for certain things including tax receipts and immigration can help productivity (another Brexit loss).
    In which case, immigration is going to be largely bad for us - the pressure it causes on housing alone does more damage than the benefits, and we should be targeting net zero migration.

    My suggestion would be that we ditch almost all the currently permitted "skilled worker" immigration, requiring you to need a job offer at £75k to come.

    I would also tighten up the family reunion rules, in particular blocking family reunion immigration unless one of the persons is a British Citizen (not merely someone with indefinite leave to remain).

    The student numbers thing is complicated - in theory students shouldn't add to the net migration numbers (for each one who comes, another should go) - what we need to do is to stop the leakage where people come as students and then don't go - given this is currently something like 26% of those coming on student visas it needs fixing urgently.
    Nevertheless I suspect we are in a high immigration post Brexit world. I don't see it changing.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,875

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    No protesters have the right to protest peacefully. When they cross that line that is when the police should get involved.

    What they shouldn't be doing is arresting people before the protesting begins (which they did last weekend).

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    edited May 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    I think that was intended ironically, FWIW.
    At least I hope it was.
    Apologies Farooq. If I can only glue myself to one person who doesn’t appreciate rights come with some responsibility, I choose Nigel.

    What will we be watching tonight? South Korean? I’ll bring some tteobokki. I do have the hots for the China girl from Aespa.
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561
    I thought Moon might glue themselves to me. Woof woof
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,560
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    Now, last year’s figures will be somewhat unusual, because of Ukraine and Hong Kong. The Ukranians are mostly women and children to intend to leave at the earliest opportunity once the war finishes, and the vast majority are not in their own housing but staying with families in the UK. The HK immigrants were a one-off as the country got taken over by China, but will likely be staying for the long term

    Yes, at some point, there will need to be radical solutions.

    My suggestion, would be a variation on how immigration works in where I live. If there’s a need for low-skilled immigrants, you offer a number of single people under 30 from most countries, a two-year non-renewable work permit. You’d need to limit the numbers, to protect British unskilled workers and stop a race back to minimum wage that we had under FoM, but the important thing is that these are temporary migrants expected to leave once their visa expires.
    Not sure inviting lots of people in but explicitly making sure they are not aligned with the long term of the UK but instead of working out how cash they can extract in 2 years is sensible.

    How about we recognise the reality of our demographics means we will have immigration, whatever politicians promise, so we get on with builiding the necessary houses and infrastructure instead of pretending?
    My brother got a similar visa in Australia. He stayed there for just under a year, did a few different jobs. It was make very clear to him, that he had no recourse to public funds, had to leave when his visa expired, and that he’d be arrested if he overstayed.

    I say we look at what works elsewhere in the world, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel.
    Australians are at least as unhappy with how migration works in their country as we are here. It is still a source of division and repeated political failure.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,267
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Btw I concocted and procured those AI photos in about 5 minutes

    I could have spent 30 minutes honing the prompt and getting even more believable images to the extent NO ONE could possibly know if they are real or not

    You can reverse image search them on Yandex (way better than Google but Putin gets your NI number). If they don't show up on that they are probably AI crap.
    No. Any image searcher is about to be swamped by trillions - literally, trillions - of fake AI images. No machine will be able to keep up with the machines
    Yes, humanity will have to radically reassess its relationship with the internet. Some bits will continue as before - I can't see it much affecting the enlightened dialogues of PB for example - but other bits will be totally unusable. But will that necessarily be a bad thing?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,481

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    Reheated Coronation quiche, obvs.
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561
    Did we have posts in 2015 that said Ed Miliband was set to be PM?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,302
    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because the political pain in restricting immigration is greater than the political pain in not restricting it.
    The trying-to-restrict-immigration-is-bad lobby seem rather more powerful than the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    eek said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    No protesters have the right to protest peacefully. When they cross that line that is when the police should get involved.

    What they shouldn't be doing is arresting people before the protesting begins (which they did last weekend).

    Anti monarchy and stop oil weren’t the only part of the security risk though. Terrorism. Bombs. Assassination. There’s far worse failings we could be blaming the security operation for failing today.

    And how terrorists, and also those with intent “to cross that line” as you put it would blend in with the other protesters, use them as cover exploiting peaceful protests - which is another reason why the protestors shouldn’t have turned up in my honest opinion, an understanding and concern in how their protest could have been exploited.

    If you wanted to blow up the London Marathon, you would dress as a Wookie for sure.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,003

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    How accurate are the Telegraph, though, when they speculate about things?
    Oddly it's the Tele and their ilk who now seem keenest to rub the Right's nose in diversity. I wonder why?
    They seem to like to foster fears of the country 'getting swamped'. It can't be good for the mindset of their loyal readers hearing this sort of thing day in day out.
    Despite ‘Brexit not being about immigration’ I guess Brexit betrayed is the long term strategy.
    That's a theme. Eg we see the same with the 'bonfire of EU regs' (not). Brexit comes up against Reality, takes a beating, limps back to its corner, leaving its fans with a choice between "Oh no, our man's shit, he's a loser!" and "boo hiss, the fix is in, he's been nobbled!" - and all the true fans will go for the latter.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    Reheated Coronation quiche, obvs.
    I’ll bring that with me.
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561
    https://twitter.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1656789295829512194

    Spicy. Worth a watch whatever side you sit on
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,953

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    How accurate are the Telegraph, though, when they speculate about things?
    Oddly it's the Tele and their ilk who now seem keenest to rub the Right's nose in diversity. I wonder why?
    They seem to like to foster fears of the country 'getting swamped'. It can't be good for the mindset of their loyal readers hearing this sort of thing day in day out.
    Despite ‘Brexit not being about immigration’ I guess Brexit betrayed is the long term strategy.
    Perhaps the problem is there is no longer an exodus of scumbag Remainers like myself who had plans to retire to Southern France were it not for Brexit. I am sure I am exactly the nerwelltodo that Johnsonian Conservatives would have liked to see the back of.

    Hah, well I am staying, and it's all down to you, Johnsonian Brexiteers!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,645
    edited May 2023
    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because the political pain in restricting immigration is greater than the political pain in not restricting it.
    The trying-to-restrict-immigration-is-bad lobby seem rather more powerful than the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby.
    I think this is right, but why has the balance changed from the second lobby to the first, which seems to be linked with Brexit? Is that because the economic damage of Brexit means the government feels compelled to use an immigration lever available to it? Or does the political failure of the Brexit project weaken the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby?

    Add I don't expect this policy to change under Labour.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,794
    ...
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561
    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,953
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    How accurate are the Telegraph, though, when they speculate about things?
    Oddly it's the Tele and their ilk who now seem keenest to rub the Right's nose in diversity. I wonder why?
    They seem to like to foster fears of the country 'getting swamped'. It can't be good for the mindset of their loyal readers hearing this sort of thing day in day out.
    Despite ‘Brexit not being about immigration’ I guess Brexit betrayed is the long term strategy.
    That's a theme. Eg we see the same with the 'bonfire of EU regs' (not). Brexit comes up against Reality, takes a beating, limps back to its corner, leaving its fans with a choice between "Oh no, our man's shit, he's a loser!" and "boo hiss, the fix is in, he's been nobbled!" - and all the true fans will go for the latter.
    They are doing away with the Working Time Directive which was harmonised during the Major Government. I remembered this because I was tasked with lobbying my MP, Gwilym Jones by my company to reject the regulation. Gwilym was ejected in GE1997.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,777
    edited May 2023
    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    Wage increases for the unskilled. Sir Stuart Rose was right.

    Millions of British people, for whom previously the minimum wage was the maximum wage, now find themselves earning £12-£14 an hour, as employers fight to fill vacancies.

    Also a change in the balance of the relationship between employer and employee, now that there’s no longer an unlimited supply of minimum-wage labour available.

    Things that should attract widespread support from those on the political left, but for some reason don’t.
  • eek said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    No protesters have the right to protest peacefully. When they cross that line that is when the police should get involved.

    What they shouldn't be doing is arresting people before the protesting begins (which they did last weekend).

    Anti monarchy and stop oil weren’t the only part of the security risk though. Terrorism. Bombs. Assassination. There’s far worse failings we could be blaming the security operation for failing today.

    And how terrorists, and also those with intent “to cross that line” as you put it would blend in with the other protesters, use them as cover exploiting peaceful protests - which is another reason why the protestors shouldn’t have turned up in my honest opinion, an understanding and concern in how their protest could have been exploited.

    If you wanted to blow up the London Marathon, you would dress as a Wookie for sure.
    If we follow your line of thinking, then we should ban all protests " just in case". You happy with that?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,540
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    The tastelessness is incroyable


    A great shot. Who's the photographer?
    We sure it's not AI ?

    The girl on the right (As we look at it) / her left has an extraordinarily long forearm. Also no thumbs showing, though they could be hidden.

    Perhaps it is a real photo though and I'm doing a disservice.
    Congratulations. You are the first PB-er to guess that these images are entirely fake. The women, the clothes, the locations, everything
    Nobody would really be crass enough to do a Vogue photo in a war zone.


    Leon: AI has advanced to the point where pictures are no longer believable enough to prove a point
    DuraAce: Yes, but this picture proves my point
    Viewcode: facepalm

    :smiley:
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    No, I don't believe that. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone who actually said those things?

    I do, however, believe that holding placards and shouting "not my king" on a public street to protest against a coronation is entirely legitimate. Just as legitimate as standing on the same street and waving a tiny flag and cheering as the king goes past. Both actions are equivalent and neither should be banned.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,267
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Didn't get the reference to pain killers so had to google. Penny huh? What a wimp!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,953
    Dialup said:

    Did we have posts in 2015 that said Ed Miliband was set to be PM?

    I remember genuine fear in 1996 from my Regional Manager and the MD, that there would be an imminent change of government and the business world would implode. Their last recollection of a Labour Government was the Winter of Discontent, so I guess they felt they had a point.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,302
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Jesus, that's tortuous.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    Reheated Coronation quiche, obvs.
    I'd have thought Pizza Express was the place to dine if you're a monarchist.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,481
    Sandpit said:

    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    Wage increases for the unskilled. Sir Stuart Rose was right.

    Millions of British people, for whom previously the minimum wage was the maximum wage, now find themselves earning £12-£14 an hour, as employers fight to fill vacancies.

    Also a change in the balance of the relationship between employer and employee, now that there’s no longer an unlimited supply of minimum-wage labour available.

    Things that should attract widespread support from those on the political left, but for some reason don’t.
    On the other hand, some of that is inflation ...
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,750
    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    Quick vaccine roll out helped to save the under 45's parents and grandparents so they can keep voting Conservative at elections? :D
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,953
    edited May 2023
    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Jesus, that's tortuous.
    JRM is I suspect less weighty than the enormous sword that the fragrant Penny was holding aloft with such Prime Ministerial aplomb.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,066

    eek said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    No protesters have the right to protest peacefully. When they cross that line that is when the police should get involved.

    What they shouldn't be doing is arresting people before the protesting begins (which they did last weekend).

    Anti monarchy and stop oil weren’t the only part of the security risk though. Terrorism. Bombs. Assassination. There’s far worse failings we could be blaming the security operation for failing today.

    And how terrorists, and also those with intent “to cross that line” as you put it would blend in with the other protesters, use them as cover exploiting peaceful protests - which is another reason why the protestors shouldn’t have turned up in my honest opinion, an understanding and concern in how their protest could have been exploited.

    If you wanted to blow up the London Marathon, you would dress as a Wookie for sure.
    Sounds like an excellent argument for banning fancy dress in marathons. Or maybe altogether, just to be on the safe side.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    eek said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    No protesters have the right to protest peacefully. When they cross that line that is when the police should get involved.

    What they shouldn't be doing is arresting people before the protesting begins (which they did last weekend).

    Anti monarchy and stop oil weren’t the only part of the security risk though. Terrorism. Bombs. Assassination. There’s far worse failings we could be blaming the security operation for failing today.

    And how terrorists, and also those with intent “to cross that line” as you put it would blend in with the other protesters, use them as cover exploiting peaceful protests - which is another reason why the protestors shouldn’t have turned up in my honest opinion, an understanding and concern in how their protest could have been exploited.

    If you wanted to blow up the London Marathon, you would dress as a Wookie for sure.
    Can't attack the coronation if there isn't a coronation. Can't attack the marathon if there isn't a marathon. How much freedom do you really want to sacrifice on the altar of safety?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,003

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Didn't get the reference to pain killers so had to google. Penny huh? What a wimp!
    Needed drugs to get through the coronation - many will relate.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,267
    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    I don't think the benefits for those 45 and over are any more apparent. Other than the thrill of 'We beat those establishment elitist sods in the referendum' I can't see how Brexit has enhanced the happiness of the British population whatsoever. Though I can name several ways in which it's decreased happiness.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,302
    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    Increased wages for lower skilled workers.
    Granted the benefit of that has now been eroded by inflation. But inflation has happened everywhere.

    Harder to say what the benefit has been for the graduate class, not least because far fewer restrictions were placed on the arrival of the knowledge class.

    All quite difficult to say for sure because we will never have a counterfactual, and so much has happened in the last seven years that it is hard to unpick the impacts of one thing from another.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,481

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    Reheated Coronation quiche, obvs.
    I’ll bring that with me.
    BTW I noticed this the other day as an alternative - rather surprised it is claimed not to exist, becausae my mother used to make bacon and egg pie (nothing else in the filling) with thin shortcrust pastry: no use for herbivores obvs. Though we had it for high tea, not breakfast,

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/may/08/breakfast-pie-the-british-delicacy-that-doesnt-exist-but-absolutely-should
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+1)
    CON: 28% (-1) 
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 5% (-)
    REF: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 10 - 11 May

    SKS fans please explain
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,003
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    No, I don't believe that. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone who actually said those things?

    I do, however, believe that holding placards and shouting "not my king" on a public street to protest against a coronation is entirely legitimate. Just as legitimate as standing on the same street and waving a tiny flag and cheering as the king goes past. Both actions are equivalent and neither should be banned.
    TBF it appears the police did manage to lock up a nice royalist lady too.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,919
    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because the political pain in restricting immigration is greater than the political pain in not restricting it.
    The trying-to-restrict-immigration-is-bad lobby seem rather more powerful than the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby.
    I think this is right, but why has the balance changed from the second lobby to the first, which seems to be linked with Brexit? Is that because the economic damage of Brexit means the government feels compelled to use an immigration lever available to it? Or does the political failure of the Brexit project weaken the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby?

    Add I don't expect this policy to change under Labour.
    A really simple solution to immigration. Link number of people allowed to immigrate to number of new homes built in any given year. No new homes, no more immigrants.

    Fwiw, I am not bothered by 1m new immigrants in the slightest if enough homes and infrastructure (schools, hospitals etc) can be built to support them.

    Immigration should be directly linked to capacity of housing and other key services, and this should be a quota enshrined in law.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Cookie said:

    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    Increased wages for lower skilled workers.
    Granted the benefit of that has now been eroded by inflation. But inflation has happened everywhere.

    Harder to say what the benefit has been for the graduate class, not least because far fewer restrictions were placed on the arrival of the knowledge class.

    All quite difficult to say for sure because we will never have a counterfactual, and so much has happened in the last seven years that it is hard to unpick the impacts of one thing from another.
    Fully agree on the last paragraph.

    As for wage growth in isolation, it's not a metric to be celebrated or regretted outside of the context. For example, wages have gone up hugely in Ukraine in the past year, but not because of conditions we'd want copied here.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,794
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    Reheated Coronation quiche, obvs.
    I’ll bring that with me.
    BTW I noticed this the other day as an alternative - rather surprised it is claimed not to exist, becausae my mother used to make bacon and egg pie (nothing else in the filling) with thin shortcrust pastry: no use for herbivores obvs. Though we had it for high tea, not breakfast,

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/may/08/breakfast-pie-the-british-delicacy-that-doesnt-exist-but-absolutely-should
    It's also perfectly possible, indeed delightful, to have a Scotch pie for breakfast
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,267
    Cookie said:

    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    Increased wages for lower skilled workers.
    Granted the benefit of that has now been eroded by inflation. But inflation has happened everywhere.

    Harder to say what the benefit has been for the graduate class, not least because far fewer restrictions were placed on the arrival of the knowledge class.

    All quite difficult to say for sure because we will never have a counterfactual, and so much has happened in the last seven years that it is hard to unpick the impacts of one thing from another.
    Have the wages for lower skilled workers notably increased? The fact that we now have record levels of immigration - the government must want them here for some purpose - kind of suggests not.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    No, I don't believe that. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone who actually said those things?

    I do, however, believe that holding placards and shouting "not my king" on a public street to protest against a coronation is entirely legitimate. Just as legitimate as standing on the same street and waving a tiny flag and cheering as the king goes past. Both actions are equivalent and neither should be banned.
    TBF it appears the police did manage to lock up a nice royalist lady too.
    But she might have been a terrorist... or, worse, and ABC journalist.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,075
    Dialup said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+1)
    CON: 28% (-1) 
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 5% (-)
    REF: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 10 - 11 May

    SKS fans please explain

    He's the best leader available to them and certainly the best since Brown, possibly Blair? It's a view anyway.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,267
    kyf_100 said:

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because the political pain in restricting immigration is greater than the political pain in not restricting it.
    The trying-to-restrict-immigration-is-bad lobby seem rather more powerful than the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby.
    I think this is right, but why has the balance changed from the second lobby to the first, which seems to be linked with Brexit? Is that because the economic damage of Brexit means the government feels compelled to use an immigration lever available to it? Or does the political failure of the Brexit project weaken the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby?

    Add I don't expect this policy to change under Labour.
    A really simple solution to immigration. Link number of people allowed to immigrate to number of new homes built in any given year. No new homes, no more immigrants.

    Fwiw, I am not bothered by 1m new immigrants in the slightest if enough homes and infrastructure (schools, hospitals etc) can be built to support them.

    Immigration should be directly linked to capacity of housing and other key services, and this should be a quota enshrined in law.
    I've heard some silly ideas on this forum but this...
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    kyf_100 said:

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because the political pain in restricting immigration is greater than the political pain in not restricting it.
    The trying-to-restrict-immigration-is-bad lobby seem rather more powerful than the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby.
    I think this is right, but why has the balance changed from the second lobby to the first, which seems to be linked with Brexit? Is that because the economic damage of Brexit means the government feels compelled to use an immigration lever available to it? Or does the political failure of the Brexit project weaken the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby?

    Add I don't expect this policy to change under Labour.
    A really simple solution to immigration. Link number of people allowed to immigrate to number of new homes built in any given year. No new homes, no more immigrants.

    Fwiw, I am not bothered by 1m new immigrants in the slightest if enough homes and infrastructure (schools, hospitals etc) can be built to support them.

    Immigration should be directly linked to capacity of housing and other key services, and this should be a quota enshrined in law.
    So your solution is to make the labour market as flexible and responsive as planning departments? I might see a flaw in this idea.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,503
    Dialup said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+1)
    CON: 28% (-1) 
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 5% (-)
    REF: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 10 - 11 May

    SKS fans please explain

    That must be wrong, along with other recent polls. We were assured in April that the Lab-Con gap was narrowing and that it wouldn't be long before Labour's lead was down to single figures.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Dialup said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+1)
    CON: 28% (-1) 
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 5% (-)
    REF: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 10 - 11 May

    SKS fans please explain

    Conservatives: take painkillers before reading this poll.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,919
    edited May 2023

    kyf_100 said:

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because the political pain in restricting immigration is greater than the political pain in not restricting it.
    The trying-to-restrict-immigration-is-bad lobby seem rather more powerful than the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby.
    I think this is right, but why has the balance changed from the second lobby to the first, which seems to be linked with Brexit? Is that because the economic damage of Brexit means the government feels compelled to use an immigration lever available to it? Or does the political failure of the Brexit project weaken the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby?

    Add I don't expect this policy to change under Labour.
    A really simple solution to immigration. Link number of people allowed to immigrate to number of new homes built in any given year. No new homes, no more immigrants.

    Fwiw, I am not bothered by 1m new immigrants in the slightest if enough homes and infrastructure (schools, hospitals etc) can be built to support them.

    Immigration should be directly linked to capacity of housing and other key services, and this should be a quota enshrined in law.
    I've heard some silly ideas on this forum but this...
    The silly idea is thinking we can go on importing 500k-1m a year, while building fewer than 220k new homes per year.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,003

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    How accurate are the Telegraph, though, when they speculate about things?
    Oddly it's the Tele and their ilk who now seem keenest to rub the Right's nose in diversity. I wonder why?
    They seem to like to foster fears of the country 'getting swamped'. It can't be good for the mindset of their loyal readers hearing this sort of thing day in day out.
    Despite ‘Brexit not being about immigration’ I guess Brexit betrayed is the long term strategy.
    That's a theme. Eg we see the same with the 'bonfire of EU regs' (not). Brexit comes up against Reality, takes a beating, limps back to its corner, leaving its fans with a choice between "Oh no, our man's shit, he's a loser!" and "boo hiss, the fix is in, he's been nobbled!" - and all the true fans will go for the latter.
    They are doing away with the Working Time Directive which was harmonised during the Major Government. I remembered this because I was tasked with lobbying my MP, Gwilym Jones by my company to reject the regulation. Gwilym was ejected in GE1997.
    That one has long been in the sights, hasn't it. I don't know why anyone other than the obvious would support the right to make people work very long hours.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,953
    edited May 2023

    Dialup said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+1)
    CON: 28% (-1) 
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 5% (-)
    REF: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 10 - 11 May

    SKS fans please explain

    That must be wrong, along with other recent polls. We were assured in April that the Lab-Con gap was narrowing and that it wouldn't be long before Labour's lead was down to single figures.
    Outlier after outlier.

    I am watching BBC World News in the hotel lobby and Jeremy Hunt is on saying how the economy is rockin'. Talking Heads "Psycho Killer" playing in the background.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,481
    Scott_xP said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    Reheated Coronation quiche, obvs.
    I’ll bring that with me.
    BTW I noticed this the other day as an alternative - rather surprised it is claimed not to exist, becausae my mother used to make bacon and egg pie (nothing else in the filling) with thin shortcrust pastry: no use for herbivores obvs. Though we had it for high tea, not breakfast,

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/may/08/breakfast-pie-the-british-delicacy-that-doesnt-exist-but-absolutely-should
    It's also perfectly possible, indeed delightful, to have a Scotch pie for breakfast
    Mm, that too, though I preferred a well-fired macaroni cheese one if I had got up late and wanted breakfast in the office. Different pastry, though: my mother's pie was not a water pastry but a flakier shortcrust one.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,958
    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    There's no VAT on moving company expenses when you emigrate to Ireland.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,302

    Cookie said:

    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    Increased wages for lower skilled workers.
    Granted the benefit of that has now been eroded by inflation. But inflation has happened everywhere.

    Harder to say what the benefit has been for the graduate class, not least because far fewer restrictions were placed on the arrival of the knowledge class.

    All quite difficult to say for sure because we will never have a counterfactual, and so much has happened in the last seven years that it is hard to unpick the impacts of one thing from another.
    Have the wages for lower skilled workers notably increased? The fact that we now have record levels of immigration - the government must want them here for some purpose - kind of suggests not.
    Well they did, very quickly after Brexit. But then, covid/Ukraine-triggered inflation, and everyone got poorer.
    I think you over-credit the government with planning immigration in response to demand or otherwise. My take is that government is incapable of restricting immigration in a way which it is willing to take the political hit for doing so. It is just reacting (or not) to events.
    Ukrainians and HK Chinese are special cases, of course.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,777
    Farooq said:

    kyf_100 said:

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because the political pain in restricting immigration is greater than the political pain in not restricting it.
    The trying-to-restrict-immigration-is-bad lobby seem rather more powerful than the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby.
    I think this is right, but why has the balance changed from the second lobby to the first, which seems to be linked with Brexit? Is that because the economic damage of Brexit means the government feels compelled to use an immigration lever available to it? Or does the political failure of the Brexit project weaken the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby?

    Add I don't expect this policy to change under Labour.
    A really simple solution to immigration. Link number of people allowed to immigrate to number of new homes built in any given year. No new homes, no more immigrants.

    Fwiw, I am not bothered by 1m new immigrants in the slightest if enough homes and infrastructure (schools, hospitals etc) can be built to support them.

    Immigration should be directly linked to capacity of housing and other key services, and this should be a quota enshrined in law.
    So your solution is to make the labour market as flexible and responsive as planning departments? I might see a flaw in this idea.
    The solution, is for everyone to be in favour of giving planning departments the most almighty kick up the arse.

    Housebuilding needs to continually outgrow the population, otherwise young people will find it impossible to buy houses.

    If immigration is 3x Milton Keynes, then housebuilding needs to be at least 4x Milton Keynes, if not 5x.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,919
    Farooq said:

    kyf_100 said:

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because the political pain in restricting immigration is greater than the political pain in not restricting it.
    The trying-to-restrict-immigration-is-bad lobby seem rather more powerful than the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby.
    I think this is right, but why has the balance changed from the second lobby to the first, which seems to be linked with Brexit? Is that because the economic damage of Brexit means the government feels compelled to use an immigration lever available to it? Or does the political failure of the Brexit project weaken the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby?

    Add I don't expect this policy to change under Labour.
    A really simple solution to immigration. Link number of people allowed to immigrate to number of new homes built in any given year. No new homes, no more immigrants.

    Fwiw, I am not bothered by 1m new immigrants in the slightest if enough homes and infrastructure (schools, hospitals etc) can be built to support them.

    Immigration should be directly linked to capacity of housing and other key services, and this should be a quota enshrined in law.
    So your solution is to make the labour market as flexible and responsive as planning departments? I might see a flaw in this idea.
    The opposite. If immigration of 1m-ish a year is imperative to the economy as people seem to think it is, the archaic and outdated 1947 planning laws would have to be abolished and replaced with something that would allow the rapid development of UK housing capacity and related infrastructure.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Farooq said:

    eek said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    No protesters have the right to protest peacefully. When they cross that line that is when the police should get involved.

    What they shouldn't be doing is arresting people before the protesting begins (which they did last weekend).

    Anti monarchy and stop oil weren’t the only part of the security risk though. Terrorism. Bombs. Assassination. There’s far worse failings we could be blaming the security operation for failing today.

    And how terrorists, and also those with intent “to cross that line” as you put it would blend in with the other protesters, use them as cover exploiting peaceful protests - which is another reason why the protestors shouldn’t have turned up in my honest opinion, an understanding and concern in how their protest could have been exploited.

    If you wanted to blow up the London Marathon, you would dress as a Wookie for sure.
    Can't attack the coronation if there isn't a coronation. Can't attack the marathon if there isn't a marathon. How much freedom do you really want to sacrifice on the altar of safety?
    You have hit the nail on the head Farooq. I agree with you. Anyone Republican (what a sinister word) agnostic to monarchy , or just disliking Charles, such as about 98% of PB it seems, are BIGGING UP what went wrong in the policing operation for their own cause.

    I’m standing my ground. I’m going to get a bigger tube of gorilla glue if I need to.

    To my mind it’s a no brainer right to protest comes with responsibility - and sense of cause protection too - how peaceful protests get hijacked by those with intent to cross the line, your disciplined and responsible protest on a fair point is fantastic cover for those with more extreme intent, it will undermine the peaceful protest group and their cause - cost it support.

    If I was setting up or leading a protest, I would be aware of this responsibility and feel the pressure of it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,064
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    I think that was intended ironically, FWIW.
    At least I hope it was.
    Apologies Farooq. If I can only glue myself to one person who doesn’t appreciate rights come with some responsibility, I choose Nigel.

    What will we be watching tonight? South Korean? I’ll bring some tteobokki. I do have the hots for the China girl from Aespa.
    허수아비 논쟁.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,645
    When will net migration be in the tens of thousands ?

    Isn’t Kemi on the case , the alleged saviour of the Tory party !
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,503

    Dialup said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+1)
    CON: 28% (-1) 
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 5% (-)
    REF: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 10 - 11 May

    SKS fans please explain

    That must be wrong, along with other recent polls. We were assured in April that the Lab-Con gap was narrowing and that it wouldn't be long before Labour's lead was down to single figures.
    Outlier after outlier.

    I am watching BBC World News in the hotel lobby and Jeremy Hunt is on saying how the economy is rockin'. Talking Heads "Psycho Killer" playing in the background.
    Talking Heads "Road to Nowhere" or "Burning Down The House" would be equally apposite.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    Increased wages for lower skilled workers.
    Granted the benefit of that has now been eroded by inflation. But inflation has happened everywhere.

    Harder to say what the benefit has been for the graduate class, not least because far fewer restrictions were placed on the arrival of the knowledge class.

    All quite difficult to say for sure because we will never have a counterfactual, and so much has happened in the last seven years that it is hard to unpick the impacts of one thing from another.
    Have the wages for lower skilled workers notably increased? The fact that we now have record levels of immigration - the government must want them here for some purpose - kind of suggests not.
    Well they did, very quickly after Brexit. But then, covid/Ukraine-triggered inflation, and everyone got poorer.
    I think you over-credit the government with planning immigration in response to demand or otherwise. My take is that government is incapable of restricting immigration in a way which it is willing to take the political hit for doing so. It is just reacting (or not) to events.
    Ukrainians and HK Chinese are special cases, of course.
    Source?

    This isn't granular enough (in terms of wage cohorts) but I'd have expected to be able to see what you're referring to and I don't. Got some better data to prove your point?
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/timeseries/kac3/lms
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,302
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    My protest is to glue myself to Farooq, he won’t have have a problem with it, because he believes the right to protest is alright to do absolute anything you want, that’s the protesters right. Rights come without any duty to be responsible when using them.

    What are we having for dinner?
    Reheated Coronation quiche, obvs.
    I’ll bring that with me.
    BTW I noticed this the other day as an alternative - rather surprised it is claimed not to exist, becausae my mother used to make bacon and egg pie (nothing else in the filling) with thin shortcrust pastry: no use for herbivores obvs. Though we had it for high tea, not breakfast,

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/may/08/breakfast-pie-the-british-delicacy-that-doesnt-exist-but-absolutely-should
    Ha, yes, I saw that. Breakfast pie is the stuff of dreams. Your mother's recipe sounds splendid, but I was thinking more of bacon, egg, sausage, beans, mushrooms and whatever regional additions you might want (black/white pudding? haggis? bubble and squeak? fried potatoes or hash browns?) - all in a shortcrust pastry pie. Possibly then the pie itself could be fried.

    *drifts off into happy reverie*
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,953
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The telegraph is speculating that net migration for the past year, to be announced in May 25, will be around ONE MILLION

    Stupefyingly huge

    How accurate are the Telegraph, though, when they speculate about things?
    Oddly it's the Tele and their ilk who now seem keenest to rub the Right's nose in diversity. I wonder why?
    They seem to like to foster fears of the country 'getting swamped'. It can't be good for the mindset of their loyal readers hearing this sort of thing day in day out.
    Despite ‘Brexit not being about immigration’ I guess Brexit betrayed is the long term strategy.
    That's a theme. Eg we see the same with the 'bonfire of EU regs' (not). Brexit comes up against Reality, takes a beating, limps back to its corner, leaving its fans with a choice between "Oh no, our man's shit, he's a loser!" and "boo hiss, the fix is in, he's been nobbled!" - and all the true fans will go for the latter.
    They are doing away with the Working Time Directive which was harmonised during the Major Government. I remembered this because I was tasked with lobbying my MP, Gwilym Jones by my company to reject the regulation. Gwilym was ejected in GE1997.
    That one has long been in the sights, hasn't it. I don't know why anyone other than the obvious would support the right to make people work very long hours.
    Anyone who wants to work over 48 hours a week can sign a disclaimer. That is what we were lobbying for back in 1996.

    But now the employer will be able to dismiss those who refuse to work over 48 hours under certain circumstances. This government really are a load of b*******!
  • glwglw Posts: 9,548
    Sandpit said:

    Wage increases for the unskilled. Sir Stuart Rose was right.

    Millions of British people, for whom previously the minimum wage was the maximum wage, now find themselves earning £12-£14 an hour, as employers fight to fill vacancies.

    Also a change in the balance of the relationship between employer and employee, now that there’s no longer an unlimited supply of minimum-wage labour available.

    Things that should attract widespread support from those on the political left, but for some reason don’t.

    That's only a first step.

    Step 2. British industry needs to invest more.
    Step 3. Non-adversarial industrial relations.
    Step 4. Less risk-averse institutional investment.

    These are all doable, we could do them, other countries do them, and if we want to fix things we have to get away from a low-skill, low-investment, labour intensive approach to business.

    If we did these things, and reaped the rewards, we could afford to build the homes and infrastructure needed so that we could support our quite rapidly growing population.

    I think the chance of this happening under any likely future government is below 10%.


  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    Farooq said:

    Dialup said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disgraceful.

    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-fan-detained-for-13-hours-after-wrongful-arrest-at-kings-coronation-12878740

    "Royal fan detained for 13 hours after 'wrongful arrest' at King's coronation

    Alice Chambers was an innocent bystander waiting to see the King drive past before being crowned at Westminster Abbey when she was arrested and locked up for the whole day."

    I was assures yesterday this was a non-issue and the Met had behaved perfectly throughout.

    Labour need to split up the Met.
    Why are you blaming the police and not the protestors for things like this happening? The question to you is, if I placed you in overall charge for managing the security of the Coronation, what would have been different?

    I was there, and I told the protestors there what they could and couldn’t do - no noises to alarm the horses, no going beyond the barricades, and if someone’s come all from Australia to enjoy the vibe and ultimate history making pageantry (that was indeed awesome) would it be fair to stick their placards up so they can’t see it and chant over the bands and bagpipes?

    I told the protestors they shouldn’t be there. They were exorcising their rights to protest without any thought to the responsibilities which come with the right to protest, that is injury to others. You just can’t have any protest a protest group thinks up, protest just can’t be anything goes. The right to protest comes with responsibility on protestors too.
    You really are a loon
    I think that was intended ironically, FWIW.
    At least I hope it was.
    Apologies Farooq. If I can only glue myself to one person who doesn’t appreciate rights come with some responsibility, I choose Nigel.

    What will we be watching tonight? South Korean? I’ll bring some tteobokki. I do have the hots for the China girl from Aespa.
    허수아비 논쟁.
    She ain’t no scarecrow she has lovely legs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU94ZF2Iqwk - nsfw
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,302
    kyf_100 said:

    Farooq said:

    kyf_100 said:

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So net migration of 700,000. That’s three Milton Keyneses.

    How many housing units were completed last year?

    Totally unsustainable. This will lead to a populist backlash eventually.
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because it thinks it necessary. Noteworthy the big increase started after Brexit. Did Brexit make immigration more necessary?
    I assume the government chooses more immigration because the political pain in restricting immigration is greater than the political pain in not restricting it.
    The trying-to-restrict-immigration-is-bad lobby seem rather more powerful than the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby.
    I think this is right, but why has the balance changed from the second lobby to the first, which seems to be linked with Brexit? Is that because the economic damage of Brexit means the government feels compelled to use an immigration lever available to it? Or does the political failure of the Brexit project weaken the allowing-immigration-is-bad lobby?

    Add I don't expect this policy to change under Labour.
    A really simple solution to immigration. Link number of people allowed to immigrate to number of new homes built in any given year. No new homes, no more immigrants.

    Fwiw, I am not bothered by 1m new immigrants in the slightest if enough homes and infrastructure (schools, hospitals etc) can be built to support them.

    Immigration should be directly linked to capacity of housing and other key services, and this should be a quota enshrined in law.
    So your solution is to make the labour market as flexible and responsive as planning departments? I might see a flaw in this idea.
    The opposite. If immigration of 1m-ish a year is imperative to the economy as people seem to think it is, the archaic and outdated 1947 planning laws would have to be abolished and replaced with something that would allow the rapid development of UK housing capacity and related infrastructure.
    Or, if planning laws are as important as everyone thinks, the immigration of 1m-ish a year will have to be abolished.
    One of the other. But not both.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,645
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    Increased wages for lower skilled workers.
    Granted the benefit of that has now been eroded by inflation. But inflation has happened everywhere.

    Harder to say what the benefit has been for the graduate class, not least because far fewer restrictions were placed on the arrival of the knowledge class.

    All quite difficult to say for sure because we will never have a counterfactual, and so much has happened in the last seven years that it is hard to unpick the impacts of one thing from another.
    Have the wages for lower skilled workers notably increased? The fact that we now have record levels of immigration - the government must want them here for some purpose - kind of suggests not.
    Well they did, very quickly after Brexit. But then, covid/Ukraine-triggered inflation, and everyone got poorer.
    I think you over-credit the government with planning immigration in response to demand or otherwise. My take is that government is incapable of restricting immigration in a way which it is willing to take the political hit for doing so. It is just reacting (or not) to events.
    Ukrainians and HK Chinese are special cases, of course.
    But doesn't your second point beg the answer to your first? If restricted immigration is a good, why did the government increase it, specifically after Brexit? Bearing in mind it has an interest in Brexit being a success?

    My view FWIW is that while some classes.of workers did see increased real wages for a while, ultimately wages are what is afforded by the economy. If you burden the economy you limit what can be afforded.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,953
    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    You can be made to work in excess of 48 hours a week whether you like it or not. Think of all the overtime as you caress your new blue passport.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,064

    Dialup said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+1)
    CON: 28% (-1) 
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 5% (-)
    REF: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 10 - 11 May

    SKS fans please explain

    That must be wrong, along with other recent polls. We were assured in April that the Lab-Con gap was narrowing and that it wouldn't be long before Labour's lead was down to single figures.
    Outlier after outlier.

    I am watching BBC World News in the hotel lobby and Jeremy Hunt is on saying how the economy is rockin'. Talking Heads "Psycho Killer" playing in the background.
    'Rocking' is, of course, somewhat ambiguous.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,777
    edited May 2023
    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    Increased wages for lower skilled workers.
    Granted the benefit of that has now been eroded by inflation. But inflation has happened everywhere.

    Harder to say what the benefit has been for the graduate class, not least because far fewer restrictions were placed on the arrival of the knowledge class.

    All quite difficult to say for sure because we will never have a counterfactual, and so much has happened in the last seven years that it is hard to unpick the impacts of one thing from another.
    Have the wages for lower skilled workers notably increased? The fact that we now have record levels of immigration - the government must want them here for some purpose - kind of suggests not.
    Well they did, very quickly after Brexit. But then, covid/Ukraine-triggered inflation, and everyone got poorer.
    I think you over-credit the government with planning immigration in response to demand or otherwise. My take is that government is incapable of restricting immigration in a way which it is willing to take the political hit for doing so. It is just reacting (or not) to events.
    Ukrainians and HK Chinese are special cases, of course.
    But doesn't your second point beg the answer to your first? If restricted immigration is a good, why did the government increase it, specifically after Brexit? Bearing in mind it has an interest in Brexit being a success?

    My view FWIW is that while some classes.of workers did see increased real wages for a while, ultimately wages are what is afforded by the economy. If you burden the economy you limit what can be afforded.
    Ukraine and Hong Kong are both anomalies in this year’s numbers. Also with student numbers, which have risen after pandemic-related deferrals.
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561
    Audience laughs when Helen Whately says it will take 25 years for water companies to fix raw sewage #BBCQT

    https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/status/1656756826111614976

    Why do the Tories let Helen Whately out? She is worth votes to Labour every time she opens her mouth.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,777
    Dialup said:

    Audience laughs when Helen Whately says it will take 25 years for water companies to fix raw sewage #BBCQT

    https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/status/1656756826111614976

    Why do the Tories let Helen Whately out? She is worth votes to Labour every time she opens her mouth.

    So what's your estimate of how long it will take?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,548
    nico679 said:

    When will net migration be in the tens of thousands ?

    Never. The UK will likely always remain a desirable place for immigrants to move to.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,560

    Dialup said:

    I would just ask. Can anyone name a tangible Brexit benefit as of right now for anyone under the age of 45? Thanks.

    You can be made to work in excess of 48 hours a week whether you like it or not. Think of all the overtime as you caress your new blue passport.
    Don't forget the increased trade at opticians as people seek appointments when they find their blue passports look black to them.
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561

    Dialup said:

    Audience laughs when Helen Whately says it will take 25 years for water companies to fix raw sewage #BBCQT

    https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/status/1656756826111614976

    Why do the Tories let Helen Whately out? She is worth votes to Labour every time she opens her mouth.

    So what's your estimate of how long it will take?
    If Keir Starmer was saying 25 years you'd be saying how ludicrous that is. And rightfully so.

    Time to bring these failing company bosses to justice. Put them in jail.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Russia confirming a retreat.

    Russian MOD confirms that Russian troops redeployed to “more advantageous defensive positions” along the Berkhivka reservoir north of Bakhmut — or, in plain English, retreated by several km.
    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1656970691227549696
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,953

    Dialup said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+1)
    CON: 28% (-1) 
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 5% (-)
    REF: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 10 - 11 May

    SKS fans please explain

    That must be wrong, along with other recent polls. We were assured in April that the Lab-Con gap was narrowing and that it wouldn't be long before Labour's lead was down to single figures.
    Outlier after outlier.

    I am watching BBC World News in the hotel lobby and Jeremy Hunt is on saying how the economy is rockin'. Talking Heads "Psycho Killer" playing in the background.
    Talking Heads "Road to Nowhere" or "Burning Down The House" would be equally apposite.
    Qu’est-ce que c’est?

    It was just randomly playing, but your suggestions would be even more appropriate.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,395
    nico679 said:

    When will net migration be in the tens of thousands ?

    Isn’t Kemi on the case , the alleged saviour of the Tory party !

    Yes, but can she hold a jewelled sword while dressed like a character from Star Trek? We are informed that that is the key thing to look for in a leader.
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561
    It is time to nationalise the water companies.
This discussion has been closed.