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The Archbishop’s attack on the small boats plan makes several front pages – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited May 2023 in General
imageThe Archbishop’s attack on the small boats plan makes several front pages – politicalbetting.com

The big question over the Archbichop’s attack on Sunak’s small boats clampdown is whether it impacts public opinion and is likely to encourage other opponents of to step up their opposition.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • First. This is a worldwide problem and that "nice" Mr Biden seems to be adopting a similar approach https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65552877
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    It won't make any difference to public opinion.

    Sunak's problem is that he can't deliver.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    I'm with Sunak on this one.

    This is an elephant trap for Labour

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,843
    Those who are against Sunak offer no solution bar let them continue to arrive. That is unsustainable
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,967
    Good morning, everyone.

    What's the Archbishop's alternative?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,967
    Dr. Foxy, using a religious text as the basis of law is not an approach I can support.

    I'd also add that France is not a nuclear wasteland or realm at war.

    If Labour want to adopt that angle it would help the Conservatives come the election.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    Good morning, everyone.

    What's the Archbishop's alternative?

    Follow our own laws?

    Which Braverman has admitted we’re breaking?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,967
    Mr. Doethur, fortunately, one can hold the view that Braverman is an incompetent with contempt for law, and that the Archbishop's perspective is hopelessly naive.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    Mr. Doethur, fortunately, one can hold the view that Braverman is an incompetent with contempt for law, and that the Archbishop's perspective is hopelessly naive.

    I am not convinced it is hopelessly naive to point out that on the Home Secretary’s own admission her actions are illegal.

    The Archbishop did go beyond that, of course, but he in practice said nothing Cameron didn’t.

    The irony of the Rwanda scheme and this extension of it is that it amounts to people smuggling, which is what the law is meant to discourage!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035
    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited May 2023
    It's appalling but I'm probably in a minority. Especially my view that with chronic labour shortages across many sectors the answer to get Britain's economy booming is, er, migration.

    Come the GE I doubt this kind of thing will really impact on voting much though.

    Events like today's interest rate rise, whilst small in itself, are the vote losers. The pinch is being felt by everyone except a few, who seem to be represented on here I note! And one or two who have mocked my flask filling from a kettle might like to hear that my entire monthly utility bill is now £45. Frugality pays.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Personally I think we should welcome them in and put them to work.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited May 2023
    It is indeed a trap for Starmer, but 'elephant' is hyperbole.

    It would be risky but Starmer could usefully point to the utter disaster of Brexit and the loss of key employees in the entertainment industry (where it is disastrous), the NHS (not much better), and food supplies (ditto).

    We NEED workers!!!! And you're not going to get a 55 yr old white collar worker out of early retirement to go and pull up potatoes in a muddy Lincolnshire field on a freezing February morning.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    Those headlines don't of course engage with anything that the archbishop actually said.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711

    Those who are against Sunak offer no solution bar let them continue to arrive. That is unsustainable

    Their solution is to stop them arriving by letting as many as wish to arrive by plane instead.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    Heathener said:

    It is indeed a trap for Starmer, but 'elephant' is hyperbole.

    It would be risky but Starmer could usefully point to the utter disaster of Brexit and the loss of key employees in the entertainment industry (where it is disastrous), the NHS (not much better), and food supplies (ditto).

    We NEED workers!!!! And you're not going to get a 55 yr old white collar worker out of early retirement to go and pull up potatoes in a muddy Lincolnshire field on a freezing February morning.

    At risk of being pedantic, you don’t get *anyone* to harvest potatoes on a freezing February morning. They usually ripen for about June, although it may be later.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    That's what I'd like to happen, and in exchange we take a proportion of those in France to a quota we agree (and only the most vulnerable) and in exchange we use our navy and border forces to help France secure theirs.

    But, it requires Macron's cooperation and is probably politically difficult with Le Pen breathing down his neck.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    You mean the pro-Gollywog set who still vote Tory. They might think that.

    People - actual conscious humane thinking people - wonder why we're so angry that the Afghans we abandoned are coming here via boats when there is no legal route to do so.

    The tragedy of the recent political period has been the weaponisation of cruelty and ignorance. Happily, as last week showed, that spell is being lifted. For most.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246

    Those who are against Sunak offer no solution bar let them continue to arrive. That is unsustainable

    Your statement assumes this law is a "solution" ?

    If something makes things a situation worse there's always an alternative of not doing it.

    By the way I don't think even the authors of the law expect it to work. Its only purpose is political.expediency.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035

    Those who are against Sunak offer no solution bar let them continue to arrive. That is unsustainable

    Their solution is to stop them arriving by letting as many as wish to arrive by plane instead.
    Whilst simultaneously being some of the most vocal NIMBYs when it comes to building more houses.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,145

    Dr. Foxy, using a religious text as the basis of law is not an approach I can support.

    I'd also add that France is not a nuclear wasteland or realm at war.

    If Labour want to adopt that angle it would help the Conservatives come the election.

    Using the Bible as text is perhaps reasonable to expect of the Archbishop.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm with Sunak on this one.

    This is an elephant trap for Labour

    I used to think that but the trouble is that the Conservative record is so poor that it's difficult to play that card. As long as Labour get the rhetoric right (and that means dropping "safe and legal routes", which everyone knows means open door) they can just say they'd do better because reasons.

    It won't attract any more votes to them. The problem for the Conservatives is that it hugely depresses their core vote.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    Anyway, there is something fascinating about people who claim to be Christians and to have the moral high ground being berated by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

    It is a sensational anachronism that we have the House of Lords at all, never mind having the state bishop getting to speak and legislate. Bonkers in 2023.

    But legislate he will - he is going to submit amendments! The "Conservative Party at Prayer" denouncing the party as wholly immortal.

    We had fuck business. I guess this is fuck God. But as long as we keep the gollywog fans on board it's all good, yes?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    edited May 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh

    That's objective number one.

    I think it should be by year end, I think. I then expect something dramatically Tory on tax (maybe abolishing inheritance tax entirely?) to shift the dial. Houses have been hit and houses is where they need to recover.

    It's a good move. It will rally votes of those in their 40s and 50s and Labour/the Left more broadly will go absolutely ape-shit over it, particularly when Paul Johnson in the IFS goes all green pen over it to validate that.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    France is a failed state, you cannot blame people for fleeing to the UK.

    In the UK we make non white people our Prime Ministers/First Ministers/Mayors, in France they beat them.

    If Sunak were smart he’d say it was because of Brexit Britain that immigrants want to come here instead of the EU.

    Anyhoo, disestablishment now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    Anyway, there is something fascinating about people who claim to be Christians and to have the moral high ground being berated by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

    It is a sensational anachronism that we have the House of Lords at all, never mind having the state bishop getting to speak and legislate. Bonkers in 2023.

    But legislate he will - he is going to submit amendments! The "Conservative Party at Prayer" denouncing the party as wholly immortal.

    We had fuck business. I guess this is fuck God. But as long as we keep the gollywog fans on board it's all good, yes?

    To be fair, neither Sunak nor Braverman have ever claimed to be Christians.

    But how a Buddhist could put forward any of Braverman’s policies is beyond me. She seems to have got the whole notion of ahimsa not just wrong but backwards.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656
    Foxy said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    What's the Archbishop's alternative?

    Matthew 31:

    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
    Let them eat goat?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    @ydoethur thanks for the farming correction! There are a host of winter crops to be pulled and plucked in winter but, you're right, spuds aren't one of them :)
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    France is a failed state, you cannot blame people for fleeing to the UK.

    In the UK we make non white people our Prime Ministers/First Ministers/Mayors, in France they beat them.

    If Sunak were smart he’d say it was because of Brexit Britain that immigrants want to come here instead of the EU.

    Anyhoo, disestablishment now.

    I am currently (trying) to do business with the big client's french team. Life in France:
    Customer last
    Bureaucracy first
    Non, what was the question?
    Active mockery then fear at proposed solutions which do not require the army of pen pushers they employ

    The new trading model I am building for them will bypass the fuckers for pretty much everything. Including sourcing product from alternative teams elsewhere in Europe who are not actively trying to scuttle our efforts.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153

    France is a failed state, you cannot blame people for fleeing to the UK.

    In the UK we make non white people our Prime Ministers/First Ministers/Mayors, in France they beat them.

    If Sunak were smart he’d say it was because of Brexit Britain that immigrants want to come here instead of the EU.

    Anyhoo, disestablishment now.

    The French have some oil. And we know what happens to failed states with oil, don’t we, children?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711

    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    You mean the pro-Gollywog set who still vote Tory. They might think that.

    People - actual conscious humane thinking people - wonder why we're so angry that the Afghans we abandoned are coming here via boats when there is no legal route to do so.

    The tragedy of the recent political period has been the weaponisation of cruelty and ignorance. Happily, as last week showed, that spell is being lifted. For most.
    Can we raise the debate above the level of "pro-Gollywog set" please?

    We're better than that.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,843
    Foxy said:

    Dr. Foxy, using a religious text as the basis of law is not an approach I can support.

    I'd also add that France is not a nuclear wasteland or realm at war.

    If Labour want to adopt that angle it would help the Conservatives come the election.

    Using the Bible as text is perhaps reasonable to expect of the Archbishop.
    The trouble is is that the Bible says all sorts of things that are either unworkable (give everything you have to the poor) or things that are inappropriate in todays world.
    One tries to live a decent, Christian life, but following the bible to the letter is not possible.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Pulpstar said:

    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh

    Some of the recent supermarket price increases have been jaw-dropping.

    Sorry to go all domestic on here but it kind-of really matters to those of us doing the weekly shop.

    I believe that the headline inflation rate may drop off but largely because last year's energy price leap and fuel will come out of the annual figure. It's the grocery increases that I can't quite believe.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Heathener said:

    It is indeed a trap for Starmer, but 'elephant' is hyperbole.

    It would be risky but Starmer could usefully point to the utter disaster of Brexit and the loss of key employees in the entertainment industry (where it is disastrous), the NHS (not much better), and food supplies (ditto).

    We NEED workers!!!! And you're not going to get a 55 yr old white collar worker out of early retirement to go and pull up potatoes in a muddy Lincolnshire field on a freezing February morning.

    Aside from the foolishness of harvesting your potatoes in Feb, potato picking can be automated. And should be.

    https://www.carlotti-g.it/?lang=en&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwge2iBhBBEiwAfXDBR-MCJQeWoWL_c_TXvhSQIGcx3J2mIhhFc__sR1HLRRLK10BXwVcG5xoCLvwQAvD_BwE

    Unless you really need to see people sweating in fields for next to no money?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779

    Foxy said:

    Dr. Foxy, using a religious text as the basis of law is not an approach I can support.

    I'd also add that France is not a nuclear wasteland or realm at war.

    If Labour want to adopt that angle it would help the Conservatives come the election.

    Using the Bible as text is perhaps reasonable to expect of the Archbishop.
    The trouble is is that the Bible says all sorts of things that are either unworkable (give everything you have to the poor) or things that are inappropriate in todays world.
    One tries to live a decent, Christian life, but following the bible to the letter is not possible.
    If only people could just live, decent Christian lives and forget about all that old rubbish in the Bible.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    France is a failed state, you cannot blame people for fleeing to the UK.

    In the UK we make non white people our Prime Ministers/First Ministers/Mayors, in France they beat them.

    If Sunak were smart he’d say it was because of Brexit Britain that immigrants want to come here instead of the EU.

    Anyhoo, disestablishment now.

    I am currently (trying) to do business with the big client's french team. Life in France:
    Customer last
    Bureaucracy first
    Non, what was the question?
    Active mockery then fear at proposed solutions which do not require the army of pen pushers they employ

    The new trading model I am building for them will bypass the fuckers for pretty much everything. Including sourcing product from alternative teams elsewhere in Europe who are not actively trying to scuttle our efforts.
    My experience varies. I’m off to visit a French client today, and they’re very good at making decisions and getting on with it. Others are as you describe.

    My British clients affected by change tend either to be commercially minded and helpful, or champion whingers. The Brits are very good at whingeing. What they never actually achieve is meaningfully obstructing change. They moan loudly but then just roll over. Some of the Europeans are much better that obstructing projects.

    I also build new trading models for companies, maybe we do a similar job.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    You mean the pro-Gollywog set who still vote Tory. They might think that.

    People - actual conscious humane thinking people - wonder why we're so angry that the Afghans we abandoned are coming here via boats when there is no legal route to do so.

    The tragedy of the recent political period has been the weaponisation of cruelty and ignorance. Happily, as last week showed, that spell is being lifted. For most.
    Can we raise the debate above the level of "pro-Gollywog set" please?

    We're better than that.
    We're really not. Braverman's team told the press that she had berated Essicks police for going after the racist pub. This so alarmed the civil service that they also approached the polis to apologise. Turns out no such berating had happened .

    So why did Braverman's team put that out? Because going after Golliwogs was upsetting their voters. In saying "pro-Gollywog voters" I am merely reporting what the actual Conservative Party actually thinks and does.

    I don't like the fact they are racist any more than you do. But the racists vote Tory and the racist Braverman is perfectly happy to pander to them.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited May 2023

    Heathener said:

    It is indeed a trap for Starmer, but 'elephant' is hyperbole.

    It would be risky but Starmer could usefully point to the utter disaster of Brexit and the loss of key employees in the entertainment industry (where it is disastrous), the NHS (not much better), and food supplies (ditto).

    We NEED workers!!!! And you're not going to get a 55 yr old white collar worker out of early retirement to go and pull up potatoes in a muddy Lincolnshire field on a freezing February morning.


    Unless you really need to see people sweating in fields for next to no money?
    You are clearly very naive. Yes, we need workers in fields. Many of them.

    We also need waiters and waitresses: many of them. Robots at table may be cute at PingPong Southbank but don't quite fulfil the brief.

    And we're yet to get an automatom to fulfil triage, take your blood, or stick a finger up your backside ... although one or two insalubrious venues might beg to differ.

    We need workers, in the fields, waiting at tables, and nursing our sick.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    The government are wide open on this topic, and Welby’s intervention is helpful for Labour. They can leave him to do the humanitarian appeals (which will certainly influence some), while they highlight the manifold practical failures of Tory migration and asylum policy. Collapsed processing capacity and backlogs, poor coordination with France, no legal routes for people who worked for the UK in Afghanistan, no housing etc.

    It’s a failure whether you come at it from a liberal or anti-immigration standpoint. Like Brexit it can quite easily be attacked now from both right and left.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    Heathener said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh

    Some of the recent supermarket price increases have been jaw-dropping.

    Sorry to go all domestic on here but it kind-of really matters to those of us doing the weekly shop.

    I believe that the headline inflation rate may drop off but largely because last year's energy price leap and fuel will come out of the annual figure. It's the grocery increases that I can't quite believe.
    Believe me I feel your pain. Have never seen anything like the current surge in cost prices and I've been doing this for 20+ years.

    It does make life difficult for us too. Getting any cost increases agreed is hard, even now that there have been many. But you can go from still making a reasonable profit to a loss in just a few months...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    Do you understand why the UK doesn't do that? Namely that there is no "first safe country" rule and that if the UK took its fair share, it would take more people than it does right now
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited May 2023
    I don't mean this to sound offensive but I've been struck recently at how out of touch a small handful of people on here are. They happen to represent views to the right. Some might say far right.

    It's one of many reasons why I know the Conservatives will lose the next election, because I witnessed exactly the same phenomenon in the run up to 1997.

    It also incidentally happened in the run up to Brexit when I made a lot of money correctly predicting the result. I was working at the time in the kind of run-down area that the Metropolitan elite had forgotten about. They were out of touch with the pulse of the people who would ultimately decide their fate.

    You have lost touch with the mood of the people.

    Bye bye tories.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Since we need lots of cheap workers to get agricultural stuff rolling, may I suggest the following.

    We take Russian prisoners of war off the Ukrainians. They owe us after all.

    Under Geneva etc, the tankers can be made to work. You are supposed to pay them, but stuff gets forgotten…

    We can house them in sheds on the farms the way the Romans did.

    Thoughts?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    It is indeed a trap for Starmer, but 'elephant' is hyperbole.

    It would be risky but Starmer could usefully point to the utter disaster of Brexit and the loss of key employees in the entertainment industry (where it is disastrous), the NHS (not much better), and food supplies (ditto).

    We NEED workers!!!! And you're not going to get a 55 yr old white collar worker out of early retirement to go and pull up potatoes in a muddy Lincolnshire field on a freezing February morning.


    Unless you really need to see people sweating in fields for next to no money?
    You are clearly very naive. Yes, we need workers in fields. Many of them.

    We also need waiters and waitresses: many of them. Robots at table may be cute at PingPong Southbank but don't quite fulfil the brief.

    And we're yet to get an automatom to fulfil triage, take your blood, or stick a finger up your backside ... although one or two insalubrious venues might beg to differ.

    We need workers, in the fields, waiting at tables, and nursing our sick.
    In case you haven’t noticed, the U.K. has a long running productivity problem going back multiple decades.

    Automation provides the increase in wealth that supports better jobs. Grubbing up potatoes is 18th cent stuff.

    The agricultural revolution is what enabled us to have an NHS in the first place.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    Pulpstar said:

    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh

    Inflation will not return to the Bank of England’s 2 per cent target until late 2025, according to a new forecast which warns that interest rates risk being “higher for longer”.

    The National Institute of Economic and Social Research, one of the country’s oldest independent think tanks, expects the current double-digit rate of inflation to fall to 5.4 per cent by the end of the year, falling short of the government’s aim to halve the headline rate of consumer price growth this year. The think tank’s forecast is also above the 3.9 per cent inflation rate the Bank expected for the end of the year in its last projections made in February.

    The institute said inflation would only fall to the Bank’s 2 per cent target in the third quarter of 2025. That makes it more pessimistic than the Bank and the Office for Budget Responsibility, who think price growth will fall rapidly in the coming months.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/forecast-of-two-year-wait-before-bank-s-target-is-met-0fmvnw6jw
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167
    edited May 2023

    Heathener said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh

    Some of the recent supermarket price increases have been jaw-dropping.

    Sorry to go all domestic on here but it kind-of really matters to those of us doing the weekly shop.

    I believe that the headline inflation rate may drop off but largely because last year's energy price leap and fuel will come out of the annual figure. It's the grocery increases that I can't quite believe.
    Believe me I feel your pain. Have never seen anything like the current surge in cost prices and I've been doing this for 20+ years.

    It does make life difficult for us too. Getting any cost increases agreed is hard, even now that there have been many. But you can go from still making a reasonable profit to a loss in just a few months...
    We all have our moments of inflation revelation, £3+ for a bit of cheese in Aldi a couple of days ago! I estimate that’s around a 50% rise in 12 months. I assume it will never go back down and may yet still rise significantly.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    I suppose the political question is whether the Conservative Party is happy to pick a fight with the archbishop or are trying to shut him up.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914

    Those who are against Sunak offer no solution bar let them continue to arrive. That is unsustainable

    They have suggested centres in France to filter the economic migrants from genuine refugees.

    The Rwanda nonsense is a particularly stupid, expensive and immoral soundbite. It is not an answer, it just throws red meat to bigots. If that is the driver for government policy over practically, I guess it works.

    Anyway we can't afford such expensive trifles
    as Rwanda when we have a £245,000 legal bill to pay for a national treasure's defence against his Partygate travails.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    FF43 said:

    I suppose the political question is whether the Conservative Party is happy to pick a fight with the archbishop or are trying to shut him up.

    At least we don't silence Archbishops of Canterbury the way we silenced Thomas Beckett.

    #Progress
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,145
    TimS said:

    The government are wide open on this topic, and Welby’s intervention is helpful for Labour. They can leave him to do the humanitarian appeals (which will certainly influence some), while they highlight the manifold practical failures of Tory migration and asylum policy. Collapsed processing capacity and backlogs, poor coordination with France, no legal routes for people who worked for the UK in Afghanistan, no housing etc.

    It’s a failure whether you come at it from a liberal or anti-immigration standpoint. Like Brexit it can quite easily be attacked now from both right and left.

    The collapse in processing asylum claims within 6 months of arrival is quite dramatic.


  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Heathener said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh

    Some of the recent supermarket price increases have been jaw-dropping.

    Sorry to go all domestic on here but it kind-of really matters to those of us doing the weekly shop.

    I believe that the headline inflation rate may drop off but largely because last year's energy price leap and fuel will come out of the annual figure. It's the grocery increases that I can't quite believe.
    Believe me I feel your pain. Have never seen anything like the current surge in cost prices and I've been doing this for 20+ years.

    It does make life difficult for us too. Getting any cost increases agreed is hard, even now that there have been many. But you can go from still making a reasonable profit to a loss in just a few months...
    We all have our moments of inflation revelation, £3+ for a bit of cheese in Aldi a couple of days ago! I estimate that’s around a 50% rise in 12 months. I assume it will never go back down and may yet still rise significantly.
    I have noticed quite a few price reductions at Aldi in recent weeks, and have been surprised that these haven't received more attention.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    edited May 2023
    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control.

    https://news.sky.com/story/transpennine-express-to-be-brought-under-government-control-due-to-continuous-cancellations-12878174

    Edit - But more socialism from this so called Tory government.

    They are delivering so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    FF43 said:

    I suppose the political question is whether the Conservative Party is happy to pick a fight with the archbishop or are trying to shut him up.

    Is Sunak a Blackadder fan?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    Pulpstar said:

    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh

    Getting inflation under control is clearly necessary, and should happen specifically because it has nothing to do with Sunak. Even Corbyn would manage this.

    The remaining problem, and this isn't a partisan issue either, is it bakes in high prices for both food and fuel compared with people's stagnating incomes and compared with before. Combined with already high mortgages and rents all the basics are now less affordable and we're feeling a lot poorer.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,843
    Gadfly said:

    Heathener said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh

    Some of the recent supermarket price increases have been jaw-dropping.

    Sorry to go all domestic on here but it kind-of really matters to those of us doing the weekly shop.

    I believe that the headline inflation rate may drop off but largely because last year's energy price leap and fuel will come out of the annual figure. It's the grocery increases that I can't quite believe.
    Believe me I feel your pain. Have never seen anything like the current surge in cost prices and I've been doing this for 20+ years.

    It does make life difficult for us too. Getting any cost increases agreed is hard, even now that there have been many. But you can go from still making a reasonable profit to a loss in just a few months...
    We all have our moments of inflation revelation, £3+ for a bit of cheese in Aldi a couple of days ago! I estimate that’s around a 50% rise in 12 months. I assume it will never go back down and may yet still rise significantly.
    I have noticed quite a few price reductions at Aldi in recent weeks, and have been surprised that these haven't received more attention.
    Not from.me. I go to Lidl...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,477
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, there is something fascinating about people who claim to be Christians and to have the moral high ground being berated by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

    It is a sensational anachronism that we have the House of Lords at all, never mind having the state bishop getting to speak and legislate. Bonkers in 2023.

    But legislate he will - he is going to submit amendments! The "Conservative Party at Prayer" denouncing the party as wholly immortal.

    We had fuck business. I guess this is fuck God. But as long as we keep the gollywog fans on board it's all good, yes?

    To be fair, neither Sunak nor Braverman have ever claimed to be Christians.

    But how a Buddhist could put forward any of Braverman’s policies is beyond me. She seems to have got the whole notion of ahimsa not just wrong but backwards.
    The Triratnas are a bit of a strange outlier tbf.
    They have no lineage. What they do have is tainted by scandal.
    And a solid lineage is key.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control.

    https://news.sky.com/story/transpennine-express-to-be-brought-under-government-control-due-to-continuous-cancellations-12878174

    Edit - But more socialism from this so called Tory government.

    They are delivering so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.

    That doesn't necessarily provide an instant solution. So many of the fubars were explicit instructions from DfT overlords. Almost none of the remaining private sector operators are actually independent.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control.

    https://news.sky.com/story/transpennine-express-to-be-brought-under-government-control-due-to-continuous-cancellations-12878174

    Edit - But more socialism from this so called Tory government.

    They are delivering so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.

    That doesn't necessarily provide an instant solution. So many of the fubars were explicit instructions from DfT overlords. Almost none of the remaining private sector operators are actually independent.
    Yeah, the government needs to smash the unions.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,145
    Chris said:

    Foxy said:

    Dr. Foxy, using a religious text as the basis of law is not an approach I can support.

    I'd also add that France is not a nuclear wasteland or realm at war.

    If Labour want to adopt that angle it would help the Conservatives come the election.

    Using the Bible as text is perhaps reasonable to expect of the Archbishop.
    The trouble is is that the Bible says all sorts of things that are either unworkable (give everything you have to the poor) or things that are inappropriate in todays world.
    One tries to live a decent, Christian life, but following the bible to the letter is not possible.
    If only people could just live, decent Christian lives and forget about all that old rubbish in the Bible.
    Some say "love your neighbour" but in the revised version by MTG it is translated as "shoot your neighbour".
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    I suppose the political question is whether the Conservative Party is happy to pick a fight with the archbishop or are trying to shut him up.

    Is Sunak a Blackadder fan?
    "It was lovely working with you."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    Incidentally I see Adam Price has finally done the decent thing after exploring all other options.

    If Rhun ap Iorwerth stands I will be very surprised indeed if he doesn't win.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    Those who are against Sunak offer no solution bar let them continue to arrive. That is unsustainable

    They have suggested centres in France to filter the economic migrants from genuine refugees.

    The Rwanda nonsense is a particularly stupid, expensive and immoral soundbite. It is not an answer, it just throws red meat to bigots. If that is the driver for government policy over practically, I guess it works.

    Anyway we can't afford such expensive trifles
    as Rwanda when we have a £245,000 legal bill to pay for a national treasure's defence against his Partygate travails.
    Except the government's asylum plans aren't even throwing red meat, more a rubbery meat substitute. Or perhaps venison. And we know how that's likely to end up.

    There are two possible endpoints for the Rwanda caper. Either it will turn out to be legally impossible to deport people, or the Rwanda centre will fill up in about a week and the Rwandans (who aren't fools) will say they don't have space for any more just now.

    Incidentally, the bit about the Home Secretary having a legal duty to deport people after 28 days... What happens if she fails in that duty?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control...

    The bad news - it's this government's control.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    edited May 2023

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control.

    https://news.sky.com/story/transpennine-express-to-be-brought-under-government-control-due-to-continuous-cancellations-12878174

    Edit - But more socialism from this so called Tory government.

    They are delivering so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.

    They have 60k salaries, lots of leave, minimal hours and still take more than 30 sick days a year on average compared to the national average of 5.6 days.

    That is not a happy ship. And it won't really be about the money.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The government are wide open on this topic, and Welby’s intervention is helpful for Labour. They can leave him to do the humanitarian appeals (which will certainly influence some), while they highlight the manifold practical failures of Tory migration and asylum policy. Collapsed processing capacity and backlogs, poor coordination with France, no legal routes for people who worked for the UK in Afghanistan, no housing etc.

    It’s a failure whether you come at it from a liberal or anti-immigration standpoint. Like Brexit it can quite easily be attacked now from both right and left.

    The collapse in processing asylum claims within 6 months of arrival is quite dramatic.


    What on earth was the Saj up to?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Foxy said:

    Dr. Foxy, using a religious text as the basis of law is not an approach I can support.

    I'd also add that France is not a nuclear wasteland or realm at war.

    If Labour want to adopt that angle it would help the Conservatives come the election.

    Using the Bible as text is perhaps reasonable to expect of the Archbishop.
    The trouble is is that the Bible says all sorts of things that are either unworkable (give everything you have to the poor) or things that are inappropriate in todays world.
    One tries to live a decent, Christian life, but following the bible to the letter is not possible.
    If only people could just live, decent Christian lives and forget about all that old rubbish in the Bible.
    Some say "love your neighbour" but in the revised version by MTG it is translated as "shoot your neighbour".
    Or the massed Republican activists applauding the sex abuser on CNN last night.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    I suppose the political question is whether the Conservative Party is happy to pick a fight with the archbishop or are trying to shut him up.

    Is Sunak a Blackadder fan?
    Braverman presents as more Bath and Wells.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    Heathener said:

    I don't mean this to sound offensive but I've been struck recently at how out of touch a small handful of people on here are. They happen to represent views to the right. Some might say far right.

    It's one of many reasons why I know the Conservatives will lose the next election, because I witnessed exactly the same phenomenon in the run up to 1997.

    It also incidentally happened in the run up to Brexit when I made a lot of money correctly predicting the result. I was working at the time in the kind of run-down area that the Metropolitan elite had forgotten about. They were out of touch with the pulse of the people who would ultimately decide their fate.

    You have lost touch with the mood of the people.

    Bye bye tories.

    I might be able to tolerate a tiresome bot for the next 18 months but, unfortunately, you couple it with ad hominum to anyone who posts better analysis than you and deliver unequivocal advice to "bet accordingly", which could lose people a lot of money.

    Unforgivable on a betting site. I hope you continue to be ignored.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    How long will it be relevant to point to the front pages of the print newspapers to indicate how a story is being driven/developed? Newspapers these days are designed to further the debate surrounding the news people got the day before online or (decreasingly) on TV, but on that basis you could equally discuss what was trending on social media.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The government are wide open on this topic, and Welby’s intervention is helpful for Labour. They can leave him to do the humanitarian appeals (which will certainly influence some), while they highlight the manifold practical failures of Tory migration and asylum policy. Collapsed processing capacity and backlogs, poor coordination with France, no legal routes for people who worked for the UK in Afghanistan, no housing etc.

    It’s a failure whether you come at it from a liberal or anti-immigration standpoint. Like Brexit it can quite easily be attacked now from both right and left.

    The collapse in processing asylum claims within 6 months of arrival is quite dramatic.


    What on earth was the Saj up to?
    Note the collapse got going big time, well before the pandemic.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,161
    Chris said:

    Foxy said:

    Dr. Foxy, using a religious text as the basis of law is not an approach I can support.

    I'd also add that France is not a nuclear wasteland or realm at war.

    If Labour want to adopt that angle it would help the Conservatives come the election.

    Using the Bible as text is perhaps reasonable to expect of the Archbishop.
    The trouble is is that the Bible says all sorts of things that are either unworkable (give everything you have to the poor) or things that are inappropriate in todays world.
    One tries to live a decent, Christian life, but following the bible to the letter is not possible.
    If only people could just live, decent Christian lives and forget about all that old rubbish in the Bible.
    ..
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control.

    https://news.sky.com/story/transpennine-express-to-be-brought-under-government-control-due-to-continuous-cancellations-12878174

    Edit - But more socialism from this so called Tory government.

    They are delivering so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.

    They have 60k salaries, lots of leave, minimal hours and still take more than 30 sick days a year on average compared to the national average of 5.6 days.

    That is not a happy ship. And it won't really be about the money.
    Who do? And what’s this got to do with the nationalisation of TPE? AFAIU it’s just a shit organisation, and those exist whatever the salary.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592
    Nigelb said:

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control...

    The bad news - it's this government's control.
    Who also run LNER which is always full and rather profitable (don't know exactly how much but it's a stick I know they beat Aventi West Coast with all the time).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    Liz Truss’s plan to visit Taiwan called ‘worst kind of Instagram diplomacy’
    Alicia Kearns, foreign affairs select committee chair, launches blistering attack on former prime minister
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/11/liz-trusss-taiwan-visit-called-instagram-diplomacy-alicia-kearns-foreign-affairs-select-committee-chair

    Truss's rebuttal - that she's going at the invitation of the Taiwanese - is (unlike most of her political history) not unreasonable.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The government are wide open on this topic, and Welby’s intervention is helpful for Labour. They can leave him to do the humanitarian appeals (which will certainly influence some), while they highlight the manifold practical failures of Tory migration and asylum policy. Collapsed processing capacity and backlogs, poor coordination with France, no legal routes for people who worked for the UK in Afghanistan, no housing etc.

    It’s a failure whether you come at it from a liberal or anti-immigration standpoint. Like Brexit it can quite easily be attacked now from both right and left.

    The collapse in processing asylum claims within 6 months of arrival is quite dramatic.


    What on earth was the Saj up to?
    Remember Saj took over because of the Windrush scandal.

    There was a review which led to delays.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control.

    https://news.sky.com/story/transpennine-express-to-be-brought-under-government-control-due-to-continuous-cancellations-12878174

    Edit - But more socialism from this so called Tory government.

    They are delivering so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.

    That doesn't necessarily provide an instant solution. So many of the fubars were explicit instructions from DfT overlords. Almost none of the remaining private sector operators are actually independent.
    Yeah, the government needs to smash the unions.
    How does that solve the DfT fucktard overlords problem?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control.

    https://news.sky.com/story/transpennine-express-to-be-brought-under-government-control-due-to-continuous-cancellations-12878174

    Edit - But more socialism from this so called Tory government.

    They are delivering so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.

    That doesn't necessarily provide an instant solution. So many of the fubars were explicit instructions from DfT overlords. Almost none of the remaining private sector operators are actually independent.
    Yeah, the government needs to smash the unions.
    How does that solve the DfT fucktard overlords problem?
    It will help.

    As a frequent TPE user, I know how to solve this.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control...

    The bad news - it's this government's control.
    Who also run LNER which is always full and rather profitable (don't know exactly how much but it's a stick I know they beat Aventi West Coast with all the time).
    IIRC, the predecessors to LNER was also profitable on services. It's just that, in order to get the franchise, they promised to give far too much back to the government.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    edited May 2023
    .
    DougSeal said:

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control.

    https://news.sky.com/story/transpennine-express-to-be-brought-under-government-control-due-to-continuous-cancellations-12878174

    Edit - But more socialism from this so called Tory government.

    They are delivering so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.

    They have 60k salaries, lots of leave, minimal hours and still take more than 30 sick days a year on average compared to the national average of 5.6 days.

    That is not a happy ship. And it won't really be about the money.
    Who do? And what’s this got to do with the nationalisation of TPE? AFAIU it’s just a shit organisation, and those exist whatever the salary.
    The train drivers. TPE has a whole clearly has wider issues as a company, but sick leave is high in others too.

    Personally I think job satisfaction and recognition is a core component of happy staff and that's born out in low sick days. Pay is a hygiene factor.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control.

    https://news.sky.com/story/transpennine-express-to-be-brought-under-government-control-due-to-continuous-cancellations-12878174

    Edit - But more socialism from this so called Tory government.

    They are delivering so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.

    That doesn't necessarily provide an instant solution. So many of the fubars were explicit instructions from DfT overlords. Almost none of the remaining private sector operators are actually independent.
    Yeah, the government needs to smash the unions.
    How does that solve the DfT fucktard overlords problem?
    It will help.

    As a frequent TPE user, I know how to solve this.
    Go by car?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778

    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    That's what I'd like to happen, and in exchange we take a proportion of those in France to a quota we agree (and only the most vulnerable) and in exchange we use our navy and border forces to help France secure theirs.

    But, it requires Macron's cooperation and is probably politically difficult with Le Pen breathing down his neck.
    The Royal Navy can't secure the British border (because no politician has the guts to order tow backs) so why are they going to be able to secure the French border?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711

    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    You mean the pro-Gollywog set who still vote Tory. They might think that.

    People - actual conscious humane thinking people - wonder why we're so angry that the Afghans we abandoned are coming here via boats when there is no legal route to do so.

    The tragedy of the recent political period has been the weaponisation of cruelty and ignorance. Happily, as last week showed, that spell is being lifted. For most.
    Can we raise the debate above the level of "pro-Gollywog set" please?

    We're better than that.
    We're really not. Braverman's team told the press that she had berated Essicks police for going after the racist pub. This so alarmed the civil service that they also approached the polis to apologise. Turns out no such berating had happened .

    So why did Braverman's team put that out? Because going after Golliwogs was upsetting their voters. In saying "pro-Gollywog voters" I am merely reporting what the actual Conservative Party actually thinks and does.

    I don't like the fact they are racist any more than you do. But the racists vote Tory and the racist Braverman is perfectly happy to pander to them.
    A splenetic post full of bigotry and prejudice that diminishes you. It is also potentially defamatory.

    Get a grip.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,685
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The government are wide open on this topic, and Welby’s intervention is helpful for Labour. They can leave him to do the humanitarian appeals (which will certainly influence some), while they highlight the manifold practical failures of Tory migration and asylum policy. Collapsed processing capacity and backlogs, poor coordination with France, no legal routes for people who worked for the UK in Afghanistan, no housing etc.

    It’s a failure whether you come at it from a liberal or anti-immigration standpoint. Like Brexit it can quite easily be attacked now from both right and left.

    The collapse in processing asylum claims within 6 months of arrival is quite dramatic.


    What on earth was the Saj up to?
    Note the collapse got going big time, well before the pandemic.
    That graph needs the context of a graph of number of arrivals though. Otherwise it’s only part of the story.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control.

    https://news.sky.com/story/transpennine-express-to-be-brought-under-government-control-due-to-continuous-cancellations-12878174

    Edit - But more socialism from this so called Tory government.

    They are delivering so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.

    That doesn't necessarily provide an instant solution. So many of the fubars were explicit instructions from DfT overlords. Almost none of the remaining private sector operators are actually independent.
    Yeah, the government needs to smash the unions.
    How does that solve the DfT fucktard overlords problem?
    It will help.

    As a frequent TPE user, I know how to solve this.
    Where you've had mass cancellations but lots of empty driver training runs - that was the DfT. 4 incompatible train fleets? DfT. Rostering so that you need 2 or 3 crews for one journey? DfT.

    Yes, the unions have been striking a lot. But when they are not the service is worse. Which is the DfT...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,145

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The government are wide open on this topic, and Welby’s intervention is helpful for Labour. They can leave him to do the humanitarian appeals (which will certainly influence some), while they highlight the manifold practical failures of Tory migration and asylum policy. Collapsed processing capacity and backlogs, poor coordination with France, no legal routes for people who worked for the UK in Afghanistan, no housing etc.

    It’s a failure whether you come at it from a liberal or anti-immigration standpoint. Like Brexit it can quite easily be attacked now from both right and left.

    The collapse in processing asylum claims within 6 months of arrival is quite dramatic.


    What on earth was the Saj up to?
    Note the collapse got going big time, well before the pandemic.
    That graph needs the context of a graph of number of arrivals though. Otherwise it’s only part of the story.
    Arrivals have been fairly steady over that period, just switched from tunnel to boats.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Nigelb said:

    Liz Truss’s plan to visit Taiwan called ‘worst kind of Instagram diplomacy’
    Alicia Kearns, foreign affairs select committee chair, launches blistering attack on former prime minister
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/11/liz-trusss-taiwan-visit-called-instagram-diplomacy-alicia-kearns-foreign-affairs-select-committee-chair

    Truss's rebuttal - that she's going at the invitation of the Taiwanese - is (unlike most of her political history) not unreasonable.

    Alicia Kearns is on the committee of the China Research Group, which likes to style itself as “pro China”
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    REJOICE

    TPE to be brought under government control...

    The bad news - it's this government's control.
    Who also run LNER which is always full and rather profitable (don't know exactly how much but it's a stick I know they beat Aventi West Coast with all the time).
    Hopefully Avanti will be next. Expensive, stinky, crowded and prone to delay and cancellation, on top of running a worse timetable than Virgin did.

    A few years back I could reliably board the 7am service at Piccadilly then step off at Euston at 9. No longer.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    You mean the pro-Gollywog set who still vote Tory. They might think that.

    People - actual conscious humane thinking people - wonder why we're so angry that the Afghans we abandoned are coming here via boats when there is no legal route to do so.

    The tragedy of the recent political period has been the weaponisation of cruelty and ignorance. Happily, as last week showed, that spell is being lifted. For most.
    Can we raise the debate above the level of "pro-Gollywog set" please?

    We're better than that.
    We're really not. Braverman's team told the press that she had berated Essicks police for going after the racist pub. This so alarmed the civil service that they also approached the polis to apologise. Turns out no such berating had happened .

    So why did Braverman's team put that out? Because going after Golliwogs was upsetting their voters. In saying "pro-Gollywog voters" I am merely reporting what the actual Conservative Party actually thinks and does.

    I don't like the fact they are racist any more than you do. But the racists vote Tory and the racist Braverman is perfectly happy to pander to them.
    A splenetic post full of bigotry and prejudice that diminishes you. It is also potentially defamatory.

    Get a grip.
    Erm which bit is potentially defamatory?
    Racist pub? Police going after the guy for racist Facebook posts.
    Braverman's team briefing the press? Self evident as reported as such by the press.
    Braverman being racist? She fingered all Pakistani men.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Heathener said:

    It is indeed a trap for Starmer, but 'elephant' is hyperbole.

    It would be risky but Starmer could usefully point to the utter disaster of Brexit and the loss of key employees in the entertainment industry (where it is disastrous), the NHS (not much better), and food supplies (ditto).

    We NEED workers!!!! And you're not going to get a 55 yr old white collar worker out of early retirement to go and pull up potatoes in a muddy Lincolnshire field on a freezing February morning.

    But we have already established that migration is at a record high. That is people who have applied legally for leave to live and work here. Probably 500k in the last 12 months. The idea that we need boat people to meet our labour needs rather than the ones we choose for ourselves is a nonsense.

    Similarly, the idea that safe legal routes will somehow put the unsafe illegal routes out of business is really a fantasy and simply deflection from the problem.

    I am no fan of the Rwanda scheme. It is immoral, expensive and ultimately unworkable. But the arguments that there is an obvious and more humane alternative are even more spurious than the arguments for the scheme itself and that's saying something.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711

    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    You mean the pro-Gollywog set who still vote Tory. They might think that.

    People - actual conscious humane thinking people - wonder why we're so angry that the Afghans we abandoned are coming here via boats when there is no legal route to do so.

    The tragedy of the recent political period has been the weaponisation of cruelty and ignorance. Happily, as last week showed, that spell is being lifted. For most.
    Can we raise the debate above the level of "pro-Gollywog set" please?

    We're better than that.
    We're really not. Braverman's team told the press that she had berated Essicks police for going after the racist pub. This so alarmed the civil service that they also approached the polis to apologise. Turns out no such berating had happened .

    So why did Braverman's team put that out? Because going after Golliwogs was upsetting their voters. In saying "pro-Gollywog voters" I am merely reporting what the actual Conservative Party actually thinks and does.

    I don't like the fact they are racist any more than you do. But the racists vote Tory and the racist Braverman is perfectly happy to pander to them.
    A splenetic post full of bigotry and prejudice that diminishes you. It is also potentially defamatory.

    Get a grip.
    Erm which bit is potentially defamatory?
    Racist pub? Police going after the guy for racist Facebook posts.
    Braverman's team briefing the press? Self evident as reported as such by the press.
    Braverman being racist? She fingered all Pakistani men.
    @PBModerator you might want to have a word
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    If the Tories spent less time trying to set traps for Labour and more time governing the country effectively we might all be that little bit better off. Sadly, Tory governing currently seems to be about as effective as the trap setting.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    That's what I'd like to happen, and in exchange we take a proportion of those in France to a quota we agree (and only the most vulnerable) and in exchange we use our navy and border forces to help France secure theirs.

    But, it requires Macron's cooperation and is probably politically difficult with Le Pen breathing down his neck.
    The Royal Navy can't secure the British border (because no politician has the guts to order tow backs) so why are they going to be able to secure the French border?
    Towbacks to Calais should be fine, if the French agree.

    Towbacks in the Med would come under French command.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    People still don’t understand why irregular arrivals from France aren’t taken straight to Dover, and put on the next ferry back there.

    That's what I'd like to happen, and in exchange we take a proportion of those in France to a quota we agree (and only the most vulnerable) and in exchange we use our navy and border forces to help France secure theirs.

    But, it requires Macron's cooperation and is probably politically difficult with Le Pen breathing down his neck.
    The Royal Navy can't secure the British border (because no politician has the guts to order tow backs) so why are they going to be able to secure the French border?
    Towbacks to Calais should be fine, if the French agree.

    Towbacks in the Med would come under French command.
    Hire the Libyan Coastguard. It’s the European solution, after all..
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,803
    edited May 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh

    Which inflation ?

    Price, house or wage ?

    The first is pretty much out of the government's control, the second governments like and the third is the one the government is trying to reduce.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunaks going to have to have inflation under control in order for me (And millions of others) as a major factor in voting come the next GE tbh

    Which inflation ?

    Price, house or wage ?

    The first is pretty much out of the government's control, the second government's like and the third is the one the government is trying to reduce.
    That’s, how do you say it? A BINGO!

    Inflation is an irregular verb…
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