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73% of Americans say Biden shouldn’t run again – politicalbetting.com

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  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,989

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    Taiwan is probably the best model from a human rights perspective. All the more reason to give it unqualified support against mainland threats to its independence.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Leon said:

    I’m just trying to work out which is the RICHEST colony in the world

    Seems to be a close contest between the Faroes - $69k gdp per capita - and the Falklands - $70k GDP per capita

    Unless anyone knows of anywhere else?

    What do they spend it on.....
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    Sounds good in theory, I await more detail.
    The Green side of the party would lose their shit if this is actually attempted. The Lib Dem’s will NIMBY up to get the seats.
    Though actually it us very well targeted in blue seats with LD challengers. Not only is it a good policy, but one with little downside for Labour.

    We have a new village probably starting shortly just north of Leicester (which doesn't have a formal greenbelt). I think it will be very popular:

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/plans-creating-new-leicestershire-village-8392511#amp-readmore-target
    That’s a really good location. The A6 corridor is sufficiently built up it won’t be trashing any “priceless countryside” or whatever - unless you really like gravel pits. It’s close enough to Leicester to make commuting realistic.

    It just needs the GCR to be rebuilt right into the city centre…

    (If only. My dad taught in Birstall and we used to live in Rearsby, so I know the area quite well.)
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Our arguments rage over tiny amounts of GDP per head.

    This seems rather more fundamental to me. And if it's a case of exchanging French sovereignty for Chinese sovereignty, I'd prefer the former.
    I could fully see democracy going into reverse this century.

    I think people underestimate how much its development and spread has been predicated on the belief it delivers better economic outcomes for more, and that all coincided with the extraordinary 1750-2000 growth period.
    Growth is continuing to progress, although often delivered in consumer surplus rather than via financial flows. The biggest problem is "cost disease" in property, higher education and healthcare, mainly driven through incredible returns to the rich driving up prices and costs.

    The benefit of democracy is that it has an escape valve before the point of revolution, as long as elections are capable of changing policy. I think a big redistribution push will come in the next 20 years or so.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Leon said:

    Even higher, Gibraltar: $92,000 per capita

    Who knew these little British colonies were so insanely rich??

    It is because they are tax havens!

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/30/king-charles-urged-to-push-for-break-up-of-uks-network-of-satellite-tax-havens?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,989

    Leon said:

    I’m just trying to work out which is the RICHEST colony in the world

    Seems to be a close contest between the Faroes - $69k gdp per capita - and the Falklands - $70k GDP per capita

    Unless anyone knows of anywhere else?

    What do they spend it on.....
    If crown protectorates count (which the Faeroes are, essentially) then there are a few like Bermuda that do very well. $114k per capita.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Leon said:

    I’m just trying to work out which is the RICHEST colony in the world

    Seems to be a close contest between the Faroes - $69k gdp per capita - and the Falklands - $70k GDP per capita

    Unless anyone knows of anywhere else?

    What do they spend it on.....
    To my point below, GDP is a production measure. The returns can go elsewhere.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Our arguments rage over tiny amounts of GDP per head.

    This seems rather more fundamental to me. And if it's a case of exchanging French sovereignty for Chinese sovereignty, I'd prefer the former.
    I could fully see democracy going into reverse this century.

    I think people underestimate how much its development and spread has been predicated on the belief it delivers better economic outcomes for more, and that all coincided with the extraordinary 1750-2000 growth period.
    Very much so. If economic growth ended, people would look to boost their own position by grabbing the lands and goods of others, as used to be the norm.
    In a way, we're starting to see that in domestic politics in Britain now.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    WillG said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Our arguments rage over tiny amounts of GDP per head.

    This seems rather more fundamental to me. And if it's a case of exchanging French sovereignty for Chinese sovereignty, I'd prefer the former.
    I could fully see democracy going into reverse this century.

    I think people underestimate how much its development and spread has been predicated on the belief it delivers better economic outcomes for more, and that all coincided with the extraordinary 1750-2000 growth period.
    Growth is continuing to progress, although often delivered in consumer surplus rather than via financial flows. The biggest problem is "cost disease" in property, higher education and healthcare, mainly driven through incredible returns to the rich driving up prices and costs.

    The benefit of democracy is that it has an escape valve before the point of revolution, as long as elections are capable of changing policy. I think a big redistribution push will come in the next 20 years or so.
    This is a good comment.

    The first para packs in three separate, but pretty acute and profound, truths about the modern economy.

    As for the latter, I hope so, but 20 years is a long time away. It’s not obvious our political systems can cope with two more decades of boomer-driven stagnation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Even higher, Gibraltar: $92,000 per capita

    Who knew these little British colonies were so insanely rich??

    It is because they are tax havens!

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/30/king-charles-urged-to-push-for-break-up-of-uks-network-of-satellite-tax-havens?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Er, yeah. I know
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    TimS said:

    The problem with building a city between Manchester and Leeds is that there’s absolutely no economic demand for it.

    Just densify existing cities, like they do everywhere else in the western world.

    Build and they will come. They said the same about Dubai.
    Is Halifax sitting on an enormous amount of oil wealth? I think not.
    Dubai isn't either to be fair. It is Abu Dhabi's oil...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    I’m just trying to work out which is the RICHEST colony in the world

    Seems to be a close contest between the Faroes - $69k gdp per capita - and the Falklands - $70k GDP per capita

    Unless anyone knows of anywhere else?

    While not, strictly speaking, a colony, the Isle of Man is on $98k USD.

    The big drawback for independence for micro-states is that they depend upon big powers to defend them.
    Also, would you want to live there or Gibraltar?

    I actually love Gibraltar, it's effectively an outpost of the UK, but you'd live in an expensive pokey flat and microstate your way around the same 2 square miles of territory ad-infinitum.

    To be meaningfully wealthy you need the number, and the means to deploy it and enjoy it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Do you support Scottish Independence?
    If the Scots vote for it, then yes, obviously.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,354
    Theweb said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Our arguments rage over tiny amounts of GDP per head.

    This seems rather more fundamental to me. And if it's a case of exchanging French sovereignty for Chinese sovereignty, I'd prefer the former.
    I could fully see democracy going into reverse this century.

    I think people underestimate how much its development and spread has been predicated on the belief it delivers better economic outcomes for more, and that all coincided with the extraordinary 1750-2000 growth period.
    Nothing much ever gets done in a democracy due to fear of upsetting one interest group or another. The singapore model is arguably superior, eben Xis china has its advantages.
    But, non-democracies are rarely led by Lee Kwan Yiew and his son. They’re more commonly led by the Duvaliers and Ceaucescus.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,297

    I've topped up on Joe Biden at 1.31 for the Democratic Nomination.

    I have no idea why that price is still available, but the chances of death in the next 16 months aren't that high.

    That's superb value, thanks for pointing it out
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited May 2023
    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Our arguments rage over tiny amounts of GDP per head.

    This seems rather more fundamental to me. And if it's a case of exchanging French sovereignty for Chinese sovereignty, I'd prefer the former.
    I could fully see democracy going into reverse this century.
    'Artificial intelligence' is still a bit of a misnomer at the moment, and hopefully it won't happen in my lifetime, but I think in this century there will be bigger issues for the human race to deal with than how they govern themselves.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Monaco: $204,000 gdp per capita. Makes Liechtenstein look like Somalia

    Not a colony.
    Tho appreciate you are just doing microstates now.

    One imagines the Vatican is the wealthiest entity on earth, measured in a per capita basis.
    Looks like the richest colony is Gibraltar: $90k


    Whereas the richest micro state is Monaco: $204,000

    Amazingly the Vatican is just $21,000! Must be all those underpaid Swiss Guards
    Papal poverty...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901
    As you may recall I've been an advocate of new towns for ages. What drives people nuts about house building is that it gets dropped on top of them regardless of space or facilities. Let me give you an example, the Stubley Meadows development near where I grew up. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.6407187,-2.1126811,3a,60y,156.26h,81.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snrRLh11vvH4hrq1KKA7Zzg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    This is 100 new homes, being built on a floodplain. Connecting to a single main road which is already at crush capacity, loading another 100 families onto already overloaded schools and medical facilities.

    Stick 100 new homes in and you don't cause a problem. Do it again and again and again and again and then wonder why people are against new homes. Local topography doesn't allow new roads. Local impoverished council budgets means no new facilities. Littleborough - and frankly the small towns over the top like Mytholmroyd - are overcrowded in a way that feels simply unbelievable compared to how it was in the 80s and 90s.

    Planning laws mean that developers build what they want where they want it. No concern for facilities or infrastructure. Just throw them up, charge £stupid to people who are desperate, move on and leave the problem behind.

    So yes, build new towns. On the edge of existing towns is more likely and does happen in various places. But stop crushing shitbox new build rabbit hutches in.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541


    Based on this, the Tories are flatlining, Labour still declining, and the Greens should become the biggest party by late Autumn. Is that how this works?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Chris said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Our arguments rage over tiny amounts of GDP per head.

    This seems rather more fundamental to me. And if it's a case of exchanging French sovereignty for Chinese sovereignty, I'd prefer the former.
    I could fully see democracy going into reverse this century.
    'Artificial intelligence' is still a bit of a misnomer at the moment, and hopefully it won't happen in my lifetime, but I think in this century there will be bigger issues for the human race to deal with than how they govern themselves.
    It will happen in the next 10-15 years
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Chris said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Our arguments rage over tiny amounts of GDP per head.

    This seems rather more fundamental to me. And if it's a case of exchanging French sovereignty for Chinese sovereignty, I'd prefer the former.
    I could fully see democracy going into reverse this century.
    'Artificial intelligence' is still a bit of a misnomer at the moment, and hopefully it won't happen in my lifetime, but I think in this century there will be bigger issues for the human race to deal with than how they govern themselves.
    Interesting article on AI as a time wasting exercise here, and also why time wasting is such a driver of technological development

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/04/ai-technology-productivity-time-wasting/673880/?utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

    (Physician, heal thyself...)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    As you may recall I've been an advocate of new towns for ages. What drives people nuts about house building is that it gets dropped on top of them regardless of space or facilities. Let me give you an example, the Stubley Meadows development near where I grew up. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.6407187,-2.1126811,3a,60y,156.26h,81.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snrRLh11vvH4hrq1KKA7Zzg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    This is 100 new homes, being built on a floodplain. Connecting to a single main road which is already at crush capacity, loading another 100 families onto already overloaded schools and medical facilities.

    Stick 100 new homes in and you don't cause a problem. Do it again and again and again and again and then wonder why people are against new homes. Local topography doesn't allow new roads. Local impoverished council budgets means no new facilities. Littleborough - and frankly the small towns over the top like Mytholmroyd - are overcrowded in a way that feels simply unbelievable compared to how it was in the 80s and 90s.

    Planning laws mean that developers build what they want where they want it. No concern for facilities or infrastructure. Just throw them up, charge £stupid to people who are desperate, move on and leave the problem behind.

    So yes, build new towns. On the edge of existing towns is more likely and does happen in various places. But stop crushing shitbox new build rabbit hutches in.

    And make them beautiful
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,258
    edited May 2023
    Theweb said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    To be fair with drugs we need to either go the singapore route where drug dealers are executed or have full legalisation to cut out the criminal gangs. This halfway house we have benefits noone.
    Not to mention the rich get their drugs on prescription. And often re-written as NHS prescriptions
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,989

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    I’m just trying to work out which is the RICHEST colony in the world

    Seems to be a close contest between the Faroes - $69k gdp per capita - and the Falklands - $70k GDP per capita

    Unless anyone knows of anywhere else?

    While not, strictly speaking, a colony, the Isle of Man is on $98k USD.

    The big drawback for independence for micro-states is that they depend upon big powers to defend them.
    Also, would you want to live there or Gibraltar?

    I actually love Gibraltar, it's effectively an outpost of the UK, but you'd live in an expensive pokey flat and microstate your way around the same 2 square miles of territory ad-infinitum.

    To be meaningfully wealthy you need the number, and the means to deploy it and enjoy it.
    That’s where the US low tax states like Colorado and Nevada work well. The super rich can live there and own a vast ranch, but still spend much of their time hobnobbing in NYC or San Francisco.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,258
    DougSeal said:



    Based on this, the Tories are flatlining, Labour still declining, and the Greens should become the biggest party by late Autumn. Is that how this works?

    Torturing data like that breaks several UN conventions.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited May 2023

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    Ruthlessly executed, eh? Better than that wokist compassionate merciful execution nonsense.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    DougSeal said:



    Based on this, the Tories are flatlining, Labour still declining, and the Greens should become the biggest party by late Autumn. Is that how this works?

    Torturing data like that breaks several UN conventions.
    @MoonRabbit on her way to The Hague?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,989

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,258
    A
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    Ruthlessly executed, eh? Better than that wokist compassionate merciful execution nonsense.
    Surely

    “Vegan trans wokist compassionate merciful execution“ ?

    Death by….. venison!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    .

    Leon said:

    I’m just trying to work out which is the RICHEST colony in the world

    Seems to be a close contest between the Faroes - $69k gdp per capita - and the Falklands - $70k GDP per capita

    Unless anyone knows of anywhere else?

    What do they spend it on.....
    I’m guessing the Amazon delivery charges are quite high ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    He will always have Ireland, if only he could remember it.

    Yay, at last, thank you, thank you. Like an anxious batsman I have been stuck on 99 off topics for months now. I have finally made my century! Today has not been wasted after all.
    I got offtopicked the other day for a post that was (shock) on topic! It stuck out to me because roughly 0.1% of my posts are on topic, so why they chose that one is a mystery.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    He will always have Ireland, if only he could remember it.

    Yay, at last, thank you, thank you. Like an anxious batsman I have been stuck on 99 off topics for months now. I have finally made my century! Today has not been wasted after all.
    I got offtopicked the other day for a post that was (shock) on topic! It stuck out to me because roughly 0.1% of my posts are on topic, so why they chose that one is a mystery.
    Fat fingers/scrolling on a touch screen device.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Do you support Scottish Independence?
    If the Scots vote for it, then yes, obviously.
    So, you think they should use the honest slogan "Poorer, but Sovereign" to secure that vote then?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,258
    edited May 2023
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    Slacker

    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/judgedredd/images/b/bc/640px-Dredd-Film-City-View.png
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited May 2023
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    Ruthlessly executed, eh? Better than that wokist compassionate merciful execution nonsense.
    I'm sure this was a killer point in your head.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Our arguments rage over tiny amounts of GDP per head.

    This seems rather more fundamental to me. And if it's a case of exchanging French sovereignty for Chinese sovereignty, I'd prefer the former.
    I could fully see democracy going into reverse this century.
    'Artificial intelligence' is still a bit of a misnomer at the moment, and hopefully it won't happen in my lifetime, but I think in this century there will be bigger issues for the human race to deal with than how they govern themselves.
    It will happen in the next 10-15 years
    Who knows when - it's quite possible that at the moment they are barking up the wrong tree, or even the wrong tree in the wrong forest on the wrong continent (as Ben Goertzel suggests) - but I don't see any reason to think it won't happen sooner or later.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited May 2023

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Do you support Scottish Independence?
    If the Scots vote for it, then yes, obviously.
    So, you think they should use the honest slogan "Poorer, but Sovereign" to secure that vote then?
    I prefer the slogan, “Poorer, but more Sovereign in a way that is hard to measure objectively but is somehow felt (especially when reading the Daily Mail).”
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,414
    edited May 2023

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    He will always have Ireland, if only he could remember it.

    Yay, at last, thank you, thank you. Like an anxious batsman I have been stuck on 99 off topics for months now. I have finally made my century! Today has not been wasted after all.
    I got offtopicked the other day for a post that was (shock) on topic! It stuck out to me because roughly 0.1% of my posts are on topic, so why they chose that one is a mystery.
    Fat fingers/scrolling on a touch screen device.
    Yeah, I do that all the time. The Off-Topic button seems to be just where I put my thumb to scroll. I usually notice and un-Off-Topic the post but probably miss the odd instance.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle o


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    You been to Thurrock?

    Shithole doesn't come close. And even if it were undeveloped it's a muddy estuary leading out to the North Sea.

    No-one wants to live there. It's possibly one of the least attractive places in Britain.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited May 2023

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle o


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    You been to Thurrock?

    Shithole doesn't come close. And even if it were undeveloped it's a muddy estuary leading out to the North Sea.

    No-one wants to live there. It's possibly one of the least attractive places in Britain.
    Precisely because it’s a shithole, it makes a good place to develop. London *is* essentially a “muddy estuary”.

    So is Antwerp, and much of the Netherlands.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    Theweb said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Our arguments rage over tiny amounts of GDP per head.

    This seems rather more fundamental to me. And if it's a case of exchanging French sovereignty for Chinese sovereignty, I'd prefer the former.
    I could fully see democracy going into reverse this century.

    I think people underestimate how much its development and spread has been predicated on the belief it delivers better economic outcomes for more, and that all coincided with the extraordinary 1750-2000 growth period.
    Nothing much ever gets done in a democracy due to fear of upsetting one interest group or another. The singapore model is arguably superior, eben Xis china has its advantages.
    Superior right up to the point you have a political opinion or run in with the law.

    And, then, you will get the full Henry VIII treatment.

    Time to read up on your Paul Scofield.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Our arguments rage over tiny amounts of GDP per head.

    This seems rather more fundamental to me. And if it's a case of exchanging French sovereignty for Chinese sovereignty, I'd prefer the former.
    I could fully see democracy going into reverse this century.
    'Artificial intelligence' is still a bit of a misnomer at the moment, and hopefully it won't happen in my lifetime, but I think in this century there will be bigger issues for the human race to deal with than how they govern themselves.
    Interesting article on AI as a time wasting exercise here, and also why time wasting is such a driver of technological development

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/04/ai-technology-productivity-time-wasting/673880/?utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

    (Physician, heal thyself...)
    Unfortunately behind a paywall.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,602
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    It seems as though the Local Plans won't have a lot of power but it's often those which bring down local administrations when the electorate perceive what is being planned as not being in keeping with what is there.

    That's the thing - Conservatives throw accusations of NIMBYism around at Liberal Democrats, Residents and others opposed to proposed developments but there's a world of difference between being opposed to housing (whichb no one is) and being opposed to high density developments on greenfield sites without adequate supporting infrastructure which seem to be more about maximising the profits of developers than providing sustainable local communities.

    Many would also argue brownfield sites should be the starting point (in my part of the world that's really all there is) but of course we know that reduces developer profits because of the need to decontaminate or do additional preparatory work.

    Supporting infrastructure such as schools, transport and GP surgeries also needs to be considered in order not to put unreasonable pressure on what's there and most larger developments should contain retail and other business opportunities to provide jobs for the new residents.
    From an electoral point of view, and probably also an infrastructure and environmental one, surely the best option is to go really big in one of two places only. High density, hundreds of thousands of new units, proper infrastructure and services to go with them.

    You only lose possibly a dozen or so of council seats in areas affected as opposed to hundreds across vast swathes of the country when you go for sprawling patchy development: an estate here, a new village there, the odd few houses in every community.

    You get better value for money from concentrated public services: new hospital, new primary and secondary schools, train, tram and bus routes. And you get to retain
    99% of the remaining green space in the rest of the country.

    2 new cities, that’s what I’d go for. One somewhere like Cambridgeshire on the East Coast mainline, the other between Manchester and Sheffield along the NPR line. And of course the Anglesey metropolis with its preferential 15% corporate tax rate and tunnel to Ireland, but that can come later.
    A new city of tower blocks in the Peak District national park.

    Full marks for originality but fewer for practicality.
    Actually the Manchester-Leeds axis is perhaps more promising. Somewhere near Halifax.
    A problem being that Halifax is already there.

    Unless you want to build on the moors you're not going to fit a new city in between Leeds and Manchester.
    There’s lots of space
    Ever heard of the Pennines ?

    That's where the 'space' is.
    Here’s a screenshot from Google maps of the area immediately around Halifax. Moorland is hello-brown, the green is farmland. There’s more green space further South and East too.

    At reasonable densities you could easily get a city with the population of Sheffield there.



    At higher densities you could pretty much get Kowloon plus Rio in there. Two cities unbothered about mountain obstacles.

    The same is true of lots of other areas where people assume there is no space. We’ve only built on a fraction of usable land.

    Take a look at how big Sheffield is and how much available land there is in your screenshot.

    A lot of what you think is green is actually grey.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle o


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    You been to Thurrock?

    Shithole doesn't come close. And even if it were undeveloped it's a muddy estuary leading out to the North Sea.

    No-one wants to live there. It's possibly one of the least attractive places in Britain.
    Precisely because it’s a shithole, it makes a good place to develop. London *is* essentially a “muddy estuary”.

    So is Antwerp, and much of the Netherlands.
    Yes quite. Build sea walls. Plant forests all around to soften the winds

    If the Times is right and we are looking at 700k-1m net migration for the foreseeable future (which is apparently fabulous news for all pb-ers) then a few new garden cities are not going to cut it. We don’t have enough room

    We will have to build towers in great and spectacular clusters
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    We could knock down all of Luton and rebuild that like Manhattan
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Do you support Scottish Independence?
    If the Scots vote for it, then yes, obviously.
    So, you think they should use the honest slogan "Poorer, but Sovereign" to secure that vote then?
    I prefer the slogan, “Poorer, but more Sovereign in a way that is hard to measure objectively but is somehow felt (especially when reading the Daily Mail).”
    My point is that people don't give a toss about economics when it aligns with their values.

    Plenty of people who hate Brexit, and criticise it vehemently on economic grounds, are quite happy to acquiesce or tub-thumb for Scottish Independence where the economic case is far more tenuous.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,219

    DougSeal said:

    The problem with building a city between Manchester and Leeds is that there’s absolutely no economic demand for it.

    Just densify existing cities, like they do everywhere else in the western world.

    I think building a new City in North Lincolnshire is the way forward.
    Yep. Something I have advocated before. Although usually I suggest southern Lincolnshire. But your suggestion - say around Grimsby/Scunthorpe with good access to the Humber estuary makes very good sense.

    That said I also agree withGardenwalker on increasing the population density of existing cities. Build up not out.
    Trouble is that most Britons want a semi-detached or detached.
    Trouble with that argument is twofold.

    First is that Britons want lots of things (preserve countryside, lower taxes with good public services, affordable houses) which you can't easily have if everyone has a detached house with a big garden.

    Second is that some high density housing (Georgian squares for example) are highly desirable, as shown by the prices they sell for.

    Get location and quality right, and people don't mind density.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    As you may recall I've been an advocate of new towns for ages. What drives people nuts about house building is that it gets dropped on top of them regardless of space or facilities. Let me give you an example, the Stubley Meadows development near where I grew up. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.6407187,-2.1126811,3a,60y,156.26h,81.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snrRLh11vvH4hrq1KKA7Zzg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    This is 100 new homes, being built on a floodplain. Connecting to a single main road which is already at crush capacity, loading another 100 families onto already overloaded schools and medical facilities.

    Stick 100 new homes in and you don't cause a problem. Do it again and again and again and again and then wonder why people are against new homes. Local topography doesn't allow new roads. Local impoverished council budgets means no new facilities. Littleborough - and frankly the small towns over the top like Mytholmroyd - are overcrowded in a way that feels simply unbelievable compared to how it was in the 80s and 90s.

    Planning laws mean that developers build what they want where they want it. No concern for facilities or infrastructure. Just throw them up, charge £stupid to people who are desperate, move on and leave the problem behind.

    So yes, build new towns. On the edge of existing towns is more likely and does happen in various places. But stop crushing shitbox new build rabbit hutches in.

    And make them beautiful
    At the very least, liveable.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,414
    edited May 2023
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    The low rise apartment blocks you see towards the centres of many European cities seem to work alright. That way you achieve a high housing density for those who like living in the bustle of the city, which also attracts service businesses, and you leave room for decently sized houses in the suburbs for people to move to later in life. Some of the most miserable places here are where tiny shoebox houses with stamp-sized, frequently unkempt gardens are crammed into packed monoculture developments, so that people are forced to live in cramped conditions, but the population density still isn't high enough to support local businesses.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,602

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    The Mauritians would point to Elizabeth II's governments treatment of the Chagos Islanders if you started talking about 'Western standards' of human rights.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    The low rise apartment blocks you see towards the centres of many European cities seem to work alright. That way you achieve a high housing density for those who like living in the bustle of the city, which also attracts service businesses, and you leave room for decently sized houses in the suburbs for people to move to later in life. Some of the most miserable places here are where tiny shoebox houses with stamp-sized, frequently unkempt gardens are crammed into packed monoculture developments, so that people are forced to live in cramped conditions, but the population density still isn't high enough to support local businesses.
    This should be Keir’s great project.
    Homes Fit for the Hopeful.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696
    edited May 2023
    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    they are planning a river crossing there right now. It might be finished in 20 years time, fingers crossed.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    He will always have Ireland, if only he could remember it.

    Yay, at last, thank you, thank you. Like an anxious batsman I have been stuck on 99 off topics for months now. I have finally made my century! Today has not been wasted after all.
    I got offtopicked the other day for a post that was (shock) on topic! It stuck out to me because roughly 0.1% of my posts are on topic, so why they chose that one is a mystery.
    Fat fingers/scrolling on a touch screen device.
    Yeah, I do that all the time. The Off-Topic button seems to be just where I put my thumb to scroll. I usually notice and un-Off-Topic the post but probably miss the odd instance.
    Can't we just get rid of the off-topic button? It serves no useful purpose. If this leads to more inadvertent likes, then who will complain?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Sovereignty. The same as any other territory wanting to run its own affairs, colonial and post colonial history has any number of examples.

    The only honest slogan that the Brexiteers could have used here would have been "Poorer, but Sovereign". Of course that wasn't what they campaigned on.
    Do you support Scottish Independence?
    If the Scots vote for it, then yes, obviously.
    So, you think they should use the honest slogan "Poorer, but Sovereign" to secure that vote then?
    Yes, I think that recognition that the early years of independence will be tough would be beneficial, other wise there would be a similar phenomenon to the widespread Bregret afflicting the UK.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited May 2023

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    This is a fallacy, as it implies we must all be content with the status quo.

    It’s also, factually wrong in that only 42% of Britons live in detached or semi-detached housing.

    Tory thinking in action!

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,602

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    The low rise apartment blocks you see towards the centres of many European cities seem to work alright. That way you achieve a high housing density for those who like living in the bustle of the city, which also attracts service businesses, and you leave room for decently sized houses in the suburbs for people to move to later in life. Some of the most miserable places here are where tiny shoebox houses with stamp-sized, frequently unkempt gardens are crammed into packed monoculture developments, so that people are forced to live in cramped conditions, but the population density still isn't high enough to support local businesses.
    It should be made much easier to convert retail property in town centres into residential.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    He will always have Ireland, if only he could remember it.

    Yay, at last, thank you, thank you. Like an anxious batsman I have been stuck on 99 off topics for months now. I have finally made my century! Today has not been wasted after all.
    I got offtopicked the other day for a post that was (shock) on topic! It stuck out to me because roughly 0.1% of my posts are on topic, so why they chose that one is a mystery.
    I think you can largely ignore off topics.
    99% of the time they are either people doing it by accident, or simply using it as a means of expressing anonymous disapproval.

    If I really don’t like your posts, I say so.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    Plenty of people want to live in London. And can’t afford to.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    The Mauritians would point to Elizabeth II's governments treatment of the Chagos Islanders if you started talking about 'Western standards' of human rights.
    Would you like to live under Chinese standards of governance?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Theweb said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    This is a fallacy, as it implies we must all be content with the status quo.

    It’s also, factually wrong in that only 42% of Britons live in detached or semi-detached housing.

    Tory thinking in action!

    Wasnt there a theory that we havent had revolutions because the english are too busy doing their gardens.
    The English gardeners were (probably: I've not checked) the only people to have a revolution then reverse it, abolishing then re-establishing the monarchy. Charles I, Charles II, what comes next in this sequence? Find out on Saturday!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    I think that ideas of these things change over time. Few want big gardens now (evidenced by the unkempt nature of many gardens) but do want to have enough space to park out front, and sit outside on a nice day and let the children play securely.

    When my father lived in Paris in a small block of a dozen flats each flat had parking in the basement*, and there were two large balconies getting the sun. It was a very nice place to live.

    * being France, there was a wine cave in the cellar for each flat too!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958
    Leon said:

    Even higher, Gibraltar: $92,000 per capita

    Who knew these little British colonies were so insanely rich??

    Proud histories of tax havening and offshore bookmaking.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    The Mauritians would point to Elizabeth II's governments treatment of the Chagos Islanders if you started talking about 'Western standards' of human rights.
    Would you like to live under Chinese standards of governance?
    Given most people do not want to overthrow their government provided water and electricity keep flowing, probably more than you'd think. Look at democracy failing to take root after various Middle East tyrants were deposed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    As you may recall I've been an advocate of new towns for ages. What drives people nuts about house building is that it gets dropped on top of them regardless of space or facilities. Let me give you an example, the Stubley Meadows development near where I grew up. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.6407187,-2.1126811,3a,60y,156.26h,81.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snrRLh11vvH4hrq1KKA7Zzg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    This is 100 new homes, being built on a floodplain. Connecting to a single main road which is already at crush capacity, loading another 100 families onto already overloaded schools and medical facilities.

    Stick 100 new homes in and you don't cause a problem. Do it again and again and again and again and then wonder why people are against new homes. Local topography doesn't allow new roads. Local impoverished council budgets means no new facilities. Littleborough - and frankly the small towns over the top like Mytholmroyd - are overcrowded in a way that feels simply unbelievable compared to how it was in the 80s and 90s.

    Planning laws mean that developers build what they want where they want it. No concern for facilities or infrastructure. Just throw them up, charge £stupid to people who are desperate, move on and leave the problem behind.

    So yes, build new towns. On the edge of existing towns is more likely and does happen in various places. But stop crushing shitbox new build rabbit hutches in.

    And make them beautiful
    At the very least, liveable.
    "It's about the infrastructure" is the NIMBY version of "I'm not racist, but.."
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,602

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    This is a fallacy, as it implies we must all be content with the status quo.

    It’s also, factually wrong in that only 42% of Britons live in detached or semi-detached housing.

    Tory thinking in action!

    England and Wales:

    7.8 million households (31.5% of all households) were in semi-detached properties, up from 31.3% (7.3 million) in 2011
    5.8 million (23.2%) were in detached properties, up from 5.3 million (22.7%) in 2011


    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingenglandandwales/census2021#:~:text=In 2021, there were 24.8,2011 (from 23.4 million).

    That's 54.7% in either detached or semi-detached.

    What's more is that those who do live in terraced or flats are often doing so because they cannot afford a semi or a detached.

    Having experience of London or New York is not always a good guide to the wider countries.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Fucking amazing interview with Prigozhin on dzen (kind of like a Russian reddit but not really). He really is a funny guy and uses rich language replete with criminal slang in a way that is rarely heard these days. Something for everyone whether you are a SMObot or idiotically susceptible to the unquestioning amplification of Ukrainian psy-ops on Twitter.

    * Slags off the RF armed forces mightily calling them undisciplined, untrained and unequipped.
    * Expects to be killed by a sniper in his SPb office and has instructions on the wall to help them range him.
    * Despises Shoigu and Krivoruchka, likes Surovikin and Teplinsky.
    * Plenty of Ukrainians are getting rich by selling supplies to RF armed forces
    * Ukraine are taking 500 casualties/day in whatever the fuck is left of Bakhmutlepool
    * Describes Russian MoD leadership as "mentally ill"
    * Wants to know why the fuck RF is still selling oil to the West via India
    * RF has enough supplies to fight for 6 months while expending 80,000 shells/day
    * Said there should be no celebration on May 9th because Russia hasn't earned it
    * The SMO is crippled by political infighting in the RF government
    * Confirms that PMC Wagner will not turn around and march on Moscow (actual lol)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Theweb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    Plenty of people want to live in London. And can’t afford to.
    Yes but only the nice bits of London. Cant imagine many people dream of living in Barking or Woolwich.
    People do live there though - because it's cheaper or more accessible than the other options.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,354

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    The Mauritians would point to Elizabeth II's governments treatment of the Chagos Islanders if you started talking about 'Western standards' of human rights.
    Would you like to live under Chinese standards of governance?
    Given most people do not want to overthrow their government provided water and electricity keep flowing, probably more than you'd think. Look at democracy failing to take root after various Middle East tyrants were deposed.
    When democracy means one person one vote once, one can understand why unpopular minorities will back the status quo.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,354
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    I think that ideas of these things change over time. Few want big gardens now (evidenced by the unkempt nature of many gardens) but do want to have enough space to park out front, and sit outside on a nice day and let the children play securely.

    When my father lived in Paris in a small block of a dozen flats each flat had parking in the basement*, and there were two large balconies getting the sun. It was a very nice place to live.

    * being France, there was a wine cave in the cellar for each flat too!
    I could not do without a fair-sized garden, now. It’s incredibly peaceful and relaxing.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Dura_Ace said:

    Fucking amazing interview with Prigozhin on dzen (kind of like a Russian reddit but not really). He really is a funny guy and uses rich language replete with criminal slang in a way that is rarely heard these days...

    With great effort holding back the urge to post the "funny how" scene, I still have to ask: these days? When was the last time you were familiar with Russian criminal talk?

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Theweb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    Plenty of people want to live in London. And can’t afford to.
    Yes but only the nice bits of London. Cant imagine many people dream of living in Barking or Woolwich.
    As a borough, Barking delivered England's World Cup win via the West Ham three and Sir Alf, and had a walk-on part in foiling the Gunpowder Plot. It is also home to Britain's thickest police who did not suspect foul play even after four bodies were found in more-or-less the same place.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited May 2023

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    This is a fallacy, as it implies we must all be content with the status quo.

    It’s also, factually wrong in that only 42% of Britons live in detached or semi-detached housing.

    Tory thinking in action!

    England and Wales:

    7.8 million households (31.5% of all households) were in semi-detached properties, up from 31.3% (7.3 million) in 2011
    5.8 million (23.2%) were in detached properties, up from 5.3 million (22.7%) in 2011


    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingenglandandwales/census2021#:~:text=In 2021, there were 24.8,2011 (from 23.4 million).

    That's 54.7% in either detached or semi-detached.

    What's more is that those who do live in terraced or flats are often doing so because they cannot afford a semi or a detached.

    Having experience of London or New York is not always a good guide to the wider countries.
    I was talking stock, you are talking households. I was also talking the UK as a whole, to the extent that might make a difference.

    Your last sentence is of course a classic of the patronising, little England kind. A mentality that is suffocating the country.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,250

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    I am convinced that Trump is too toxic with independents now to win. The legal troubles will also serve as a constant drip-drip all the way through the next 18 months.

    I think the GOP base are mad enough to nominate him, I think they’re screwed for the general election if they do, however.
    Given De Santis is divisive within the GOP you have to think there’s a non-negligible chance of a third candidate coming through the middle for the nomination. Like Truss. They’d need to be on the conservative right of course, but the conditions are surely there.
    What the GOP really need is a “compassionate conservative” telegenic, charismatic governor who can appeal to moderates. A Republican Bill Clinton if you like. If there was such a candidate I think they’d walk 2024.

    But there is no chance of the base putting them forwards, so it’s a fantasy.

    Pence and Haley are perhaps the ones to take a closer look at to assess their chances, Haley seems to be popular but I would need to look into her politics a bit more to be convinced she would be able to step up if Trump/DeSantis faltered.
    George W Bush was of course just such a 'compassionate conservative' governor in 2000 and won. Also the only Republican Presidential candidate this century to win the popular vote as he did in 2004
    Have you not seen his humourous commentary about signing off the execution of, I believe, a mentally ill female death rower. How he laughed.
    When I first read that I thought you were referring to an oarswoman!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    As you may recall I've been an advocate of new towns for ages. What drives people nuts about house building is that it gets dropped on top of them regardless of space or facilities. Let me give you an example, the Stubley Meadows development near where I grew up. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.6407187,-2.1126811,3a,60y,156.26h,81.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snrRLh11vvH4hrq1KKA7Zzg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    This is 100 new homes, being built on a floodplain. Connecting to a single main road which is already at crush capacity, loading another 100 families onto already overloaded schools and medical facilities.

    Stick 100 new homes in and you don't cause a problem. Do it again and again and again and again and then wonder why people are against new homes. Local topography doesn't allow new roads. Local impoverished council budgets means no new facilities. Littleborough - and frankly the small towns over the top like Mytholmroyd - are overcrowded in a way that feels simply unbelievable compared to how it was in the 80s and 90s.

    Planning laws mean that developers build what they want where they want it. No concern for facilities or infrastructure. Just throw them up, charge £stupid to people who are desperate, move on and leave the problem behind.

    So yes, build new towns. On the edge of existing towns is more likely and does happen in various places. But stop crushing shitbox new build rabbit hutches in.

    And make them beautiful
    At the very least, liveable.
    "It's about the infrastructure" is the NIMBY version of "I'm not racist, but.."
    Infrastructure can be built.
    And much more easily for planned medium density urban developments than endless add on suburbs.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,806

    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Even higher, Gibraltar: $92,000 per capita

    Who knew these little British colonies were so insanely rich??

    They’re all tax havens these days (except for the Falklands) so it’s not surprising that the mean income is pretty high.

    Not sure how the Falklands manages it! At one point there was the hope of oil, but I think the oil fields failed to show anything worth pumping out?
    Fishing. It’s huge there
    See also Iceland.
    Surprising how much money there is in fishing, yet Grimsby is basically Albania-on-the-Humber.
    Not true, Albania is actually really nice, it just lacks jobs.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    Ruthlessly executed, eh? Better than that wokist compassionate merciful execution nonsense.
    I'm sure this was a killer point in your head.
    No. It was a joke. Perhaps a very bad one but, nevertheless, a concept that is notoriously alien to your way of thinking.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    I think new towns or new villages (like the one I mentioned in Leics) are quite viable both politically and economically if situated appropriately and equipped with infrastructure and transport links. Plonking a high density new city of 500 000 in a random part of Leaverstan is not viable, not least because construction would take decades. It took 3 decades for Milton Keynes to reach a quarter million population, and that is quite well situated.

    A lot of greenfield sites in Britain are low quality monoculture wildlife deserts, with little or no scenic qualities, and quite appropriate to develop.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    The low rise apartment blocks you see towards the centres of many European cities seem to work alright. That way you achieve a high housing density for those who like living in the bustle of the city, which also attracts service businesses, and you leave room for decently sized houses in the suburbs for people to move to later in life. Some of the most miserable places here are where tiny shoebox houses with stamp-sized, frequently unkempt gardens are crammed into packed monoculture developments, so that people are forced to live in cramped conditions, but the population density still isn't high enough to support local businesses.
    This should be Keir’s great project.
    Homes Fit for the Hopeful.
    New build homes are largely appalling. And the whole "executive homes for middle class people" lie is in itself a problem. And we end up with thrown together houses crushed in together, with gangs of bored kids making these estates hell for the majority. And that is when you then get gardens filled with rubbish etc etc. And the price of some of these houses!!!!

    So yes, lets build medium density housing. Nice apartments where the developer hasn't fitted them with InfernoQwik panels. Its the solution that works basically everywhere else. Why not here?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    It seems as though the Local Plans won't have a lot of power but it's often those which bring down local administrations when the electorate perceive what is being planned as not being in keeping with what is there.

    That's the thing - Conservatives throw accusations of NIMBYism around at Liberal Democrats, Residents and others opposed to proposed developments but there's a world of difference between being opposed to housing (whichb no one is) and being opposed to high density developments on greenfield sites without adequate supporting infrastructure which seem to be more about maximising the profits of developers than providing sustainable local communities.

    Many would also argue brownfield sites should be the starting point (in my part of the world that's really all there is) but of course we know that reduces developer profits because of the need to decontaminate or do additional preparatory work.

    Supporting infrastructure such as schools, transport and GP surgeries also needs to be considered in order not to put unreasonable pressure on what's there and most larger developments should contain retail and other business opportunities to provide jobs for the new residents.
    From an electoral point of view, and probably also an infrastructure and environmental one, surely the best option is to go really big in one of two places only. High density, hundreds of thousands of new units, proper infrastructure and services to go with them.

    You only lose possibly a dozen or so of council seats in areas affected as opposed to hundreds across vast swathes of the country when you go for sprawling patchy development: an estate here, a new village there, the odd few houses in every community.

    You get better value for money from concentrated public services: new hospital, new primary and secondary schools, train, tram and bus routes. And you get to retain
    99% of the remaining green space in the rest of the country.

    2 new cities, that’s what I’d go for. One somewhere like Cambridgeshire on the East Coast mainline, the other between Manchester and Sheffield along the NPR line. And of course the Anglesey metropolis with its preferential 15% corporate tax rate and tunnel to Ireland, but that can come later.
    A new city of tower blocks in the Peak District national park.

    Full marks for originality but fewer for practicality.
    Actually the Manchester-Leeds axis is perhaps more promising. Somewhere near Halifax.
    A problem being that Halifax is already there.

    Unless you want to build on the moors you're not going to fit a new city in between Leeds and Manchester.
    There’s lots of space
    Ever heard of the Pennines ?

    That's where the 'space' is.
    Here’s a screenshot from Google maps of the area immediately around Halifax. Moorland is hello-brown, the green is farmland. There’s more green space further South and East too.

    At reasonable densities you could easily get a city with the population of Sheffield there.



    At higher densities you could pretty much get Kowloon plus Rio in there. Two cities unbothered about mountain obstacles.

    The same is true of lots of other areas where people assume there is no space. We’ve only built on a fraction of usable land.

    Or a bit south east of that and the area around Huddersfield/Dewsbury.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,602
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    I think that ideas of these things change over time. Few want big gardens now (evidenced by the unkempt nature of many gardens) but do want to have enough space to park out front, and sit outside on a nice day and let the children play securely.

    When my father lived in Paris in a small block of a dozen flats each flat had parking in the basement*, and there were two large balconies getting the sun. It was a very nice place to live.

    * being France, there was a wine cave in the cellar for each flat too!
    Agreed.

    You rarely see new build housing with big gardens nowadays.

    Instead there are often medium sized communal green spaces.

    What I don't sense though is much desire for high density living outside of large cities.

    What I suspect the 'average person' wants is a bit of moderation with some garden, some nice communal area and some easy access to the countryside.

    But there will be will be extremes who want big gardens or no gardens, big communal areas or no communal areas, lots of countryside access or no countryside access.

    Fortunately we can build some housing to suit all types.

    But instead we get into these discussions where someone starts declaring we need to build X in location Y according to their own great masterplan.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Fucking amazing interview with Prigozhin on dzen (kind of like a Russian reddit but not really). He really is a funny guy and uses rich language replete with criminal slang in a way that is rarely heard these days...

    With great effort holding back the urge to post the "funny how" scene, I still have to ask: these days? When was the last time you were familiar with Russian criminal talk?

    Criminal slang (fenya/blatnoy yazik) was very commonly heard in the cities even by non criminal elements and had a deep connection to Russian culture. It probably started going out of usage in the noughties as the Internet and globalisation encroached.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Dura_Ace said:


    * Confirms that PMC Wagner will not turn around and march on Moscow (actual lol)

    Because their next assignment is Khartoum?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    edited May 2023
    Royal runner Slipofthepen to miss the 2,000 Guineas on Coronation Day with 15 left in contention
    https://www.racingpost.com/news/festivals/guineas-festival/royal-runner-slipofthepen-to-miss-the-2000-guineas-on-coronation-day-with-15-left-in-contention-aEonj6v09Ez5/

    The King won't be popping into Ladbroke's on his way to the Abbey.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Theweb said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    This land is next to the largest jobs catchment area in Europe, and one where house prices are crowding out the productive middle classes.


    You could, literally, build a kind of “Dubai” here, and it would indeed be self-sustaining.
    It would need to be a massive project, though, and not one the British have much of a track record in.

    For a start, you’d need to overcome the cultural snobbery that underpins much of British life.

    The estuary seems an obvious opportunity. Water resources might be an issue, but then, Dubai. Would need 2 or 3 more river crossings to properly link up the economic zones North and South.

    Some good potential viticultural land around there though, so that would need to be preserved.
    Also: think big

    Plan a Hong Kong style city with immense towers. Space for 2m people. Which can go up to 5m. Be ambitious. Aim for scale
    I agree with the sentiment, but I suspect you’ve lost most of the board already.

    It seems to be case that the places that people WANT to live - think Paris, Amsterdam, the Upper West Side of Manhattan - are around six floors high and arranged in terraces, squares, and canals. Britain has its own domestic forms in London, Bath and Edinburgh.

    We could do worse than ask AI to design a garden city, interlaced with canals, in the style of Robert Adam.
    If people wanted to live like that I suspect they would be living like that.

    Given that most people instead live in semis and detacheds then I suspect that they prefer to live like that.
    This is a fallacy, as it implies we must all be content with the status quo.

    It’s also, factually wrong in that only 42% of Britons live in detached or semi-detached housing.

    Tory thinking in action!

    Wasnt there a theory that we havent had revolutions because the english are too busy doing their gardens.
    The English gardeners were (probably: I've not checked) the only people to have a revolution then reverse it, abolishing then re-establishing the monarchy. Charles I, Charles II, what comes next in this sequence? Find out on Saturday!
    The fact is that Charles II survived because there was a convenient oak tree,
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Fucking amazing interview with Prigozhin on dzen (kind of like a Russian reddit but not really). He really is a funny guy and uses rich language replete with criminal slang in a way that is rarely heard these days...

    With great effort holding back the urge to post the "funny how" scene, I still have to ask: these days? When was the last time you were familiar with Russian criminal talk?

    Criminal slang (fenya/blatnoy yazik) was very commonly heard in the cities even by non criminal elements and had a deep connection to Russian culture. It probably started going out of usage in the noughties as the Internet and globalisation encroached.
    Same here. Watch The Sweeney or Minder and it's a different language.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    Ruthlessly executed, eh? Better than that wokist compassionate merciful execution nonsense.
    I'm sure this was a killer point in your head.
    No. It was a joke. Perhaps a very bad one but, nevertheless, a concept that is notoriously alien to your way of thinking.
    Don't give up the day job.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    The Mauritians would point to Elizabeth II's governments treatment of the Chagos Islanders if you started talking about 'Western standards' of human rights.
    Would you like to live under Chinese standards of governance?
    Of course not. Doesn't make our treatment of the Chagos Islanders any less shameful.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    TUD, Malcolm, DavidL,

    Ok here's the chance - can one of you take him out?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,602
    Foxy said:

    I think new towns or new villages (like the one I mentioned in Leics) are quite viable both politically and economically if situated appropriately and equipped with infrastructure and transport links. Plonking a high density new city of 500 000 in a random part of Leaverstan is not viable, not least because construction would take decades. It took 3 decades for Milton Keynes to reach a quarter million population, and that is quite well situated.

    A lot of greenfield sites in Britain are low quality monoculture wildlife deserts, with little or no scenic qualities, and quite appropriate to develop.

    Monocultural and monotonous.

    Continuing my theme of moderation and a bit of everything I don't think you can beat a mixed landscape of agricultural land, ancient woodland, plantation woodland, re-wilded old industrial land and outer suburbia.

    Not the sort of thing you see on 'Beautiful Britain' calendars but its always interesting to walk through.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Fans of kimono-wearing fox-botherers with an hour to spare can watch:-

    The Tortoise interview with Jolyon Maugham KC
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQnAbdMFdgA
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958
    Despite the recurring meme that Russia promotes Scottish secession, here's a proud Unionist pooping out Kremlin talking points. Won't be long before he's doing the whole 'Ukraine is actually part of Russia' schtik (unless he's sectioned first).


  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,354
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    The Mauritians would point to Elizabeth II's governments treatment of the Chagos Islanders if you started talking about 'Western standards' of human rights.
    Would you like to live under Chinese standards of governance?
    Of course not. Doesn't make our treatment of the Chagos Islanders any less shameful.
    Wilfully spiteful, IMHO.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Texas’ “war on woke” in universities…

    “Tucked into page 8 is a stipulation outlawing all assignments involving “direct communication” between students and their federal, state or local officials – short-circuiting the training young Texans receive to participate in democracy itself.”
    https://twitter.com/profsassy/status/1653008098783555588
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Anti-independence parties however, won the majority of votes, so a referendum is not going to be won, any time soon.

    TBH, I can't see why any overseas territory would wish to break from France. The deal they get is incredible.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure it always works that way.

    Pride has no price.
    It's basically a choice between living in a first world nation or a third world kleptocracy. It's surprising how many would prefer the latter.
    Mauritius is not a third world kleptocracy. Nor is Singapore. Nor is Brunei
    Interestingly, though, none of those have human rights to what we'd call Western standards.

    Singapore has just ruthlessly executed one guy who got caught with 2 pounds of gear.
    The Mauritians would point to Elizabeth II's governments treatment of the Chagos Islanders if you started talking about 'Western standards' of human rights.
    Would you like to live under Chinese standards of governance?
    Of course not. Doesn't make our treatment of the Chagos Islanders any less shameful.
    Ok, but you seem much more interested in Whataboutery rather than engaging with it.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,504
    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:



    Based on this, the Tories are flatlining, Labour still declining, and the Greens should become the biggest party by late Autumn. Is that how this works?

    Torturing data like that breaks several UN conventions.
    @MoonRabbit on her way to The Hague?
    On the way back from Alfies Antique Market, last stop of todays shopping trip.

    And beware of the Doug giving out silly likes.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,354
    edited May 2023
    The worst value newbuilds, IMHO, are the £1m plus pastiches of Georgian homes, with gardens like postage-stamps.
This discussion has been closed.