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73% of Americans say Biden shouldn’t run again – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,019
edited May 2023 in General
image73% of Americans say Biden shouldn’t run again – politicalbetting.com

The big news in US politics over the past week has been the announcement by Joe Biden that he wants to seek a second term. If he was nominated and won he would be 86 years old at the end of his term. This is very much against public opinion in the US where voters across the board are opposed to such a move.

Read the full story here

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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    The Dem race is over unless Biden gets sick or dies. This is normal for incumbents.

    The GOP race... I dunno... I don't think early polling is very predictive and the media really want to have a race. And usually primaries against an incumbent spit out a relative moderate. So I would say that one is far from over.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,269
    He will always have Ireland, if only he could remember it.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    Meanwhile state governors have high approval ratings:

    https://morningconsult.com/governor-rankings/

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3811233-here-are-americas-most-popular-and-least-popular-governors/

    Maybe the two parties need a primary primary to decide a candidate to take on the has been for the party nomination.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,410
    Seems a bit harsh considering sex offenders and thieves keep their jobs.

    A police officer has been dismissed from GMP for drink driving. PC Jarmila Kocanova, who was convicted for the offence after pleading guilty in court last June, was more than four times the legal limit when she was caught.

    Apologising for her actions, the Rochdale resident said she 'genuinely regrets' the events which took place last April. At a misconduct hearing on Friday (April 28), a Police Federation representative urged the force not to dismiss her, telling GMP's top cop that the move would effectively make her homeless.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/pregnant-gmp-officer-who-begged-26807119
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,410
    On topic, nobody has become rich from underestimating Joe Biden.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,269
    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I don't think that Trump will even be the nominee. The legal challenges he faces are complicated, damaging and distracting.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,410
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I don't think that Trump will even be the nominee. The legal challenges he faces are complicated, damaging and distracting.
    He’s the American Bobby Sands.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    Morning all :)

    The problem the Democrats and the Republicans have is they are wedded to past successes. Trump won, Biden beat Trump so the only one the Republican think can win is Trump and the only one the Democrats think can beat Trump is Biden so both sides are forced to stick with the proven choice.

    I'm quite convinced both parties have plenty of people who could be President and it doesn't stop at DeSantis or Harris. Indeed, past experience shows the primary process has a way of turning an also-ran into a contender - it's a punishing process which weeds out the no-hopers and generally brings through the most likely contenders (though not always).

    The obvious ways a Trump-Biden contest doesn't happen are either a) a health issue for one or both or b) Trump doesn't get the GOP nomination and runs as an Independent against DeSantis and presumably Biden.

    I'm trying to think of the last time a sitting President was opposed by a former President (presumably Teddy Roosevelt in 1912 who ran as a Progressive and before that Grover Cleveland?) - it doesn't happen often and that might be another reason for the inertia.

    If Trump loses again, that will presumably be the end of him and Biden cannot serve a third term so the 2028 election would have two newer and presumably much younger candidates (DeSantis would be a sprightly 52 and Pete Buttigieg a slightly sprightlier 49).
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991
    edited May 2023
    Yet Biden is the only Democrat who has proven he can beat Donald Trump.

    That is why he remains favourite for the Democratic nomination again if the Republicans nominate Trump again as currently looks likely
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    stodge said:


    I'm trying to think of the last time a sitting President was opposed by a former President (presumably Teddy Roosevelt in 1912 who ran as a Progressive and before that Grover Cleveland?) - it doesn't happen often and that might be another reason for the inertia.

    If Trump loses again, that will presumably be the end of him and Biden cannot serve a third term so the 2028 election would have two newer and presumably much younger candidates (DeSantis would be a sprightly 52 and Pete Buttigieg a slightly sprightlier 49).

    One reason it doesn't happen much is that people prefer not to lose elections so if someone turns out to be a loser you don't vote for them next time. Trump worked around this by the innovation of pretending he won.

    If he gets the nomination in 2024 and goes on to lose then I don't see why he wouldn't be able to repeat the same trick in 2028.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I don't think that Trump will even be the nominee. The legal challenges he faces are complicated, damaging and distracting.
    He’s the American Bobby Sands.
    So he'll starve to death in prison ?
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    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,386

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I don't think that Trump will even be the nominee. The legal challenges he faces are complicated, damaging and distracting.
    He’s the American Bobby Sands.
    Without the hunger strike
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991
    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850

    Meanwhile state governors have high approval ratings:

    https://morningconsult.com/governor-rankings/

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3811233-here-are-americas-most-popular-and-least-popular-governors/

    Maybe the two parties need a primary primary to decide a candidate to take on the has been for the party nomination.

    Phil Scott looks to tick a lot of the right boxes if you want a GOP civil war. That said, he might be the only Republican who could win even if Trump ran as an Independent.

    The Democrats from a gubernatorial perspective don't look so well off - to be fair, both Carter and Clinton were Democrat Governors but Obama wasn't.
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    maxhmaxh Posts: 825
    FPT
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:


    Theweb said:

    pigeon said:

    The reason taxes are so high in the UK is because huge sums of money go toward elderly care, the NHS (primarily used by the elderly), and triple locked pensions.

    Another story I heard today:
    A serving police officer is “looking forward” to a 2% pay rise this year. His father, who retired on 3/4 of final pay, gets 10%.
    The police officer calculates that in four years, his retired father will out-earn him.

    How on earth is that sustainable?

    The thing I confess I don’t understand is that Britain is hardly alone in its demographic burden. In fact, thanks to immigration, it does a little better than most of its advanced country peers. So how the fuck do they manage without the country “falling to bits”?

    Time to wheel out one of my favourite stats again: in the UK, the average pensioner household after adjusting for housing costs has a higher level of disposable income than the average working household. There are still a lot of poor pensioners around, but the implication is that the average mortgage-free pensioner now enjoys a substantially higher standard of living than the average working-age taxpayer.

    The triple lock and the ever-tightening squeeze on housing supply are purpose built to transfer both asset and liquid wealth upwards, from younger, poorer people to older, richer ones - by ensuring that, over time, the gap between earned incomes on the one hand, and pension incomes and house prices on the other, will grow wider and wider and wider.
    Whats amazing is the lack of gratitude amongst many of the elderly. We locked down too to protect them but in return get more moaning.
    This 79 year old and his 83 year old wife are extremely grateful for our blessings and I have consistently stated my opposition to the triple lock

    Indeed when Sunak suggested he was reviewing the triple lock it was Starmer who led the opposition to its demise

    As someone who is nearing his diamond wedding anniversary, and vividly remembers the Queens coronation in 1953, I accept times have changed but there is a rather ugly narrative coming from some regarding the elderly, who in most cases are loved and adored by their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren, and it is good that these unpleasant views are not shared by most of the populace
    I think it's divide and rule. The State is gorging itself on taxpayers' money - that is where the dissatisfaction should be directed, not at one group who seems to be doing a bit less poorly out of it than the rest.
    I would just say that those attacking the triple lock need to realise it was Starmer who mounted a campaign to retain it, and both Starmer and Reeves have affirmed they will do so if they win office

    I would also comment I have never approved of NI contributions stopping at 60, and everyone in employment no matter their age should pay NI
    The government has a majority of 70 or so, they could have abolished/modified the triple lock.

    You cannot pin this on Starmer.
    Indeed I can as he and Reeves have stated it is not up for discussion and they are likely to be in power in 18 months time
    Unspoofable.

    Repeat after me, the government have a notional majority of 70 or so and can abolish and/or amend the triple lock tomorrow.

    They choose not to.

    Wait until you hear the other stuff the government does that Starmer opposes.
    I was with my 76 year old Conservative supporting neighbour yesterday and he has a compelling case that the small boats problem is Labour's fault as they want the boat people over here because when they achieve their citizenship they vote Labour.

    With experience comes wisdom.
    Tell him SKS Labour has a hierarchy of racism similar to his
    Well Marquee Mark often explains how fundamentally evil Starmer is for sharing a Shadow Cabinet table with an anti-Semite, so you may have a point.
    MarqueeMark never uses the word "evil". But he does point out that a man who was so driven in his ambition he was prepared to work in the Shadow Cabinet of an anti-semite - indeed , worked for three years to make that anti-semite our Prime Minister - is in turn unfit to be Prime Minister himself.

    Of all of the charges laid with such vituperation at the door of Boris Johnson as to why he was unfit to be Prime Minister, none is more damning of his unfitness for office as that I will repeatedly lie at the door of SKS.

    SKS is not "evil". But SKS's track record makes him unfit for high office. In that opinion, I am unshakable.
    That’s fine, but it makes you sound like a loon.
    The howls of outrage from Labour supporters if you point out Starmer is unfit for office by dint of his actions leads me to think I am flagging an issue they feel very worried about.

    As they should.

    Just rolling eyes at your tedious predictability, You’re back at the demon eyes stage and have nothing left to offer.
    Ask the Iraqis if the demon eyes stage was inappropriate....
    Jonathan seems to think Labour leaders should get a free pass when seeking office, and given the benefit of the doubt. He seems strangely obsessed by them being criticised.

    I wonder why.
    I am highly critical of Starmer, and won't be voting for his party, but I think that his personal integrity is far stronger than other politicians in either Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet.

    The absence of policy to address the compounding anti-growth outcomes of Brexit or the poor state of government finances or public services or intergenerational inequalities are what puts me off.
    @foxy I’m intrigued. As someone on here who tends to have what I see as sensible views…are you certain you won’t vote for Starmer’s party?

    I agree on the absence of policy but I’m of the view that he is simply keeping his powder dry (to avoid Sunak nicking his policies). Would a good Labour manifesto change your mind?

    I ask partly because I’m trying to work out what to do myself. I’m in a firm Labour constituency so it’s not that important, but I’m wavering between Labour and Green atm.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    The people who are saying he can't run/win in 2024 were saying similar things in 2015 and 2016. Trump was just as crooked and absurb back then, and yet he did win. I have no faith in the courts, GOP, or American people stopping Trump, I'm down to relying on divine intervention.
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,607
    Lots of the Republican Party don’t want Trump as their candidate, but they’re scared he’ll run as an independent, which would doom them to losing the presidency, the Senate and the House, so they keep quiet.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,598
    edited May 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    A lot of commentators across the spectrum have bemoaned Labour’s lack of concerted housebuilding policy. It’s clearly badly needed so why haven’t they gone in strongly on it?

    Well now it looks like they are doing. And we’ll no doubt quickly see why they didn’t do so earlier, as the irresistible forces of nimbyism let fly.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    Take on the NIMBYs. Excellent.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Well.

    Start-up backed by Rishi Sunak’s wife Akshata Murty given government grant

    The prime minister’s wife is a shareholder in a company that was awarded almost £350,000 of taxpayers’ money as part of a scheme to support entrepreneurs.

    Records at Companies House show that Catamaran Ventures UK Ltd, the investment company controlled by Akshata Murty, has a stake in Study Hall, an education technology start-up.

    Last year the business received a government grant of £349,976 through Innovate UK, the arm’s-length body that provides money and support to companies developing new products or services.

    Murty’s shareholding in a firm that has been the direct beneficiary of government funding raises fresh questions about her business dealings and the potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

    Study Hall, which aims to harness the power of artificial intelligence (AI) in schools, was founded by Sofia Fenichell, a tech entrepreneur. Her previous venture Mrs Wordsmith, another education start-up dedicated to promoting children’s literacy, collapsed in 2021 just six months after receiving state support.

    Mrs Wordsmith was given £650,000 of taxpayers’ money as a loan through the government’s Future Fund,


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/start-up-backed-by-rishi-sunak-s-wife-akshata-murty-given-government-grant-zpmk3k9w8

    Arcuri must be feeling shortchanged.
    I know, Sunak is even more sleazier than Boris Johnson.
    It's strange, isn't it. After all, Boris had need of the money, a louche lifestyle will do that to a chap. But Rishi is already insanely wealthy.

    If I (the mere son of a long-standing local councillor) know the importance of the "what would your behaviour look like on the front
    page of the paper" test, how come so many Conservative MPs don't?
    Except she owns about 2% of the company, one of about 10 minor shareholders with the founder owning 80%. I double she has any involvement in the company whatsoever - it looks like a classic friends and family round.

    Are you really saying that Study Hall shouldn’t access schemes that are available to any company?

    With allegations of this seriousness it’s disgraceful to make this kind of attack without a shred of evidence.
    Any close associate of the PM needs to be squeaky clean and to declare even the slightest conflict of interest if the sleaze and bungs to mates of the Johnson era is to be consigned to history.
    Are you saying she isn't 'squeaky clean' ?

    I wonder what you were saying about Cherie Blair and her friendship with fraudster Peter Foster back in the day? I also look forward to Starmer's wife getting the same attention so we can all check that she's 'squeaky clean'.
    Are there any examples of failures to declare conflicts of interest concerning Starmer’s wife?
    I've no idea. But the point is this: if Sunak's wife is to be put under this much examination, then so should Starmer's. What are her financials?

    As I said above; Cherie Blair shows that the wife of a Labour MP can be involved with some fairly dodgy people. If you want sunlight on Sunak's wife, then it would seem odd that you would not want such light on Starmer's wife.

    Sometimes all Labour has is smears. especially after such rich ground as they had with Johnson., who really was dodgy ;)
    Even local councillors are required to declare interests of spouses/partners, its rather bizarre MPs, who set those rules, always seem so stunned that, yes, a conflict involving their partner might still be relevant.

    All MPs just list your interests properly, it is not the onerous burden you act like it is.
    I'm unsure that I've commented on that process.

    As it happens, it wouldn't be very onerous for me, as our interests are fairly lightweight. I can imagine if you had more complex affairs - as people with lots of money often do - it could well be much more complex and onerous.

    And then there's the problems of allowing people to keep some privacy on their affairs as well.
    If people are rich enough to have onerous declaratory needs they are rich enough to pay someone to be organised about it so they themselves can make those declarations.

    The privacy thing is a red herring. The whole point of the declarations is that people in their position should be open and transparent about otherwise private affairs due to the nature of their power and position. They still have plenty of privacy, as do you even if people have to see what land you hold an interest in within the area of your authority. Even for councillors there are carve outs to withhold for sake of safety.

    There are rules about what needs declaring and what does not, and no doubt the line between can be argued about, but so long as some declarations are required some privacy is given up. That some people have more interests that have the potential to compromise them than others is not a reason to reduce the level, and nor is privacy - knowing the life partner of a minister has investments which are relevant to government work is not information which should be private.

    It's a fallacy if they argue they shouldn't need to do X because they need some privacy. They still have some. They are just voluntarily in a job where they have some restrictions.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Too late, he's already going for it. A shame they have no one better to defeat Trump but such is life.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    I think it's a real problem for the Dems. Biden on his record so far is the most successful president of recent years. But if he is perceived by the public to be incapable that won't count for anything.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,421
    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    Good.
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    maxhmaxh Posts: 825
    On topic I can’t decide between @HYUFD style optimism and @Sean_F style pessimism. @DavidL your confidence that he’ll be excluded sounds worryingly like the attitudes that dismissed his chances in 2016. If anyone can find their way around the various legal hurdles it’s him - not least delaying tactics. But then I bow to your superior legal knowledge (and cross all fingers and toes)!

    In short, I have no idea!
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,066

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I don't think that Trump will even be the nominee. The legal challenges he faces are complicated, damaging and distracting.
    He’s the American Bobby Sands.
    Urrgh, just imagine a Trump dirty protest.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,410

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I don't think that Trump will even be the nominee. The legal challenges he faces are complicated, damaging and distracting.
    He’s the American Bobby Sands.
    Urrgh, just imagine a Trump dirty protest.
    I’ve already imagined him in the pee pee tape.

    I have this issue where my mind visualises everything I read/hear.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,450
    I still feel that whilst Biden isn’t the President Americans want, perhaps he is the president they need right now.

    He is helped by the fact the alternatives are much worse.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,990
    kle4 said:

    Much shorter version - if you are a public servant and you have a lot of interests, that's an sign of needing greater transparency on your interests, not less because it's a bigger hassle for you.

    Yes - but there would also be many more edge cases; cases where people could reasonably disagree whether they should be declared or not.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,057
    The chance of a similar incident to George Bush fainting in Japan in 1992 must be a risk for Biden.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,410
    kle4 said:

    Much shorter version - if you are a public servant and you have a lot of interests, that's an sign of needing greater transparency on your interests, not less because it's a bigger hassle for you.

    Indeed.

    This isn’t the first instance for the Sunaks.
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,450

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    I am convinced that Trump is too toxic with independents now to win. The legal troubles will also serve as a constant drip-drip all the way through the next 18 months.

    I think the GOP base are mad enough to nominate him, I think they’re screwed for the general election if they do, however.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    kle4 said:

    Too late, he's already going for it. A shame they have no one better to defeat Trump but such is life.

    No, they have no one else proven to beat Trump and that's the point. The gamble on another candidate would be that - a gamble. I'm sure there are Democrats who could and would win the key swing states but only Biden did and in fact Biden beat Trump comprehensively.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,990
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Well.

    Start-up backed by Rishi Sunak’s wife Akshata Murty given government grant

    The prime minister’s wife is a shareholder in a company that was awarded almost £350,000 of taxpayers’ money as part of a scheme to support entrepreneurs.

    Records at Companies House show that Catamaran Ventures UK Ltd, the investment company controlled by Akshata Murty, has a stake in Study Hall, an education technology start-up.

    Last year the business received a government grant of £349,976 through Innovate UK, the arm’s-length body that provides money and support to companies developing new products or services.

    Murty’s shareholding in a firm that has been the direct beneficiary of government funding raises fresh questions about her business dealings and the potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

    Study Hall, which aims to harness the power of artificial intelligence (AI) in schools, was founded by Sofia Fenichell, a tech entrepreneur. Her previous venture Mrs Wordsmith, another education start-up dedicated to promoting children’s literacy, collapsed in 2021 just six months after receiving state support.

    Mrs Wordsmith was given £650,000 of taxpayers’ money as a loan through the government’s Future Fund,


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/start-up-backed-by-rishi-sunak-s-wife-akshata-murty-given-government-grant-zpmk3k9w8

    Arcuri must be feeling shortchanged.
    I know, Sunak is even more sleazier than Boris Johnson.
    It's strange, isn't it. After all, Boris had need of the money, a louche lifestyle will do that to a chap. But Rishi is already insanely wealthy.

    If I (the mere son of a long-standing local councillor) know the importance of the "what would your behaviour look like on the front
    page of the paper" test, how come so many Conservative MPs don't?
    Except she owns about 2% of the company, one of about 10 minor shareholders with the founder owning 80%. I double she has any involvement in the company whatsoever - it looks like a classic friends and family round.

    Are you really saying that Study Hall shouldn’t access schemes that are available to any company?

    With allegations of this seriousness it’s disgraceful to make this kind of attack without a shred of evidence.
    Any close associate of the PM needs to be squeaky clean and to declare even the slightest conflict of interest if the sleaze and bungs to mates of the Johnson era is to be consigned to history.
    Are you saying she isn't 'squeaky clean' ?

    I wonder what you were saying about Cherie Blair and her friendship with fraudster Peter Foster back in the day? I also look forward to Starmer's wife getting the same attention so we can all check that she's 'squeaky clean'.
    Are there any examples of failures to declare conflicts of interest concerning Starmer’s wife?
    I've no idea. But the point is this: if Sunak's wife is to be put under this much examination, then so should Starmer's. What are her financials?

    As I said above; Cherie Blair shows that the wife of a Labour MP can be involved with some fairly dodgy people. If you want sunlight on Sunak's wife, then it would seem odd that you would not want such light on Starmer's wife.

    Sometimes all Labour has is smears. especially after such rich ground as they had with Johnson., who really was dodgy ;)
    Even local councillors are required to declare interests of spouses/partners, its rather bizarre MPs, who set those rules, always seem so stunned that, yes, a conflict involving their partner might still be relevant.

    All MPs just list your interests properly, it is not the onerous burden you act like it is.
    I'm unsure that I've commented on that process.

    As it happens, it wouldn't be very onerous for me, as our interests are fairly lightweight. I can imagine if you had more complex affairs - as people with lots of money often do - it could well be much more complex and onerous.

    And then there's the problems of allowing people to keep some privacy on their affairs as well.
    If people are rich enough to have onerous declaratory needs they are rich enough to pay someone to be organised about it so they themselves can make those declarations.

    The privacy thing is a red herring. The whole point of the declarations is that people in their position should be open and transparent about otherwise private affairs due to the nature of their power and position. They still have plenty of privacy, as do you even if people have to see what land you hold an interest in within the area of your authority. Even for councillors there are carve outs to withhold for sake of safety.

    There are rules about what needs declaring and what does not, and no doubt the line between can be argued about, but so long as some declarations are required some privacy is given up. That some people have more interests that have the potential to compromise them than others is not a reason to reduce the level, and nor is privacy - knowing the life partner of a minister has investments which are relevant to government work is not information which should be private.

    It's a fallacy if they argue they shouldn't need to do X because they need some privacy. They still have some. They are just voluntarily in a job where they have some restrictions.
    The privacy point is important for several reasons - one being that we're not talking about an individual here, we're talking about an individual's spouse. And possibly their kids and any good friends as well. Anyone that has interests that might gain the individual an advantage.

    IMO that's a difficult balance.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,598

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    Populism in its basic 2010s form does seem to have subsided in most places, including the US. That basic form being voters opting for charismatic self-styled outsiders and strongmen simply to shake things up a bit. Voters eventually got the measure of Trump, Bolsonaro, Corbyn, Wilders, Johnson etc. The place they seem to live on - because they’ve not yet been inoculated by real populist power - is in France with Melenchon and Le Pen.

    In the US though the hard ideological currents that underpin the culture wars seem to be alive and well though, on both right and left. There’s still a chance Trump could ride on these for a while.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,582
    HYUFD said:

    Yet Biden is the only Democrat who has proven he can beat Donald Trump.

    That is why he remains favourite for the Democratic nomination again if the Republicans nominate Trump again as currently looks likely

    Rather more relevant is the fact that he's a sitting President. Had he done a bad job, then he would almost certainly lose to a primary challenger.
    He hasn't, and is running again, and that's pretty well that.

    The Democrats have some very good potential candidates, but none of the really good ones have been round long enough to have the public following for a primary challenge in these circumstances.
    If Biden weren't running, it would be a different matter.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,582

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I don't think that Trump will even be the nominee. The legal challenges he faces are complicated, damaging and distracting.
    He’s the American Bobby Sands.
    Urrgh, just imagine a Trump dirty protest.
    I’ve already imagined him in the pee pee tape.

    I have this issue where my mind visualises everything I read/hear.
    Even Max Verstappen feeding you a slice of pineapple pizza.
    While watching the Trump tape ?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,598

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    I am convinced that Trump is too toxic with independents now to win. The legal troubles will also serve as a constant drip-drip all the way through the next 18 months.

    I think the GOP base are mad enough to nominate him, I think they’re screwed for the general election if they do, however.
    Given De Santis is divisive within the GOP you have to think there’s a non-negligible chance of a third candidate coming through the middle for the nomination. Like Truss. They’d need to be on the conservative right of course, but the conditions are surely there.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,410
    edited May 2023
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I don't think that Trump will even be the nominee. The legal challenges he faces are complicated, damaging and distracting.
    He’s the American Bobby Sands.
    Urrgh, just imagine a Trump dirty protest.
    I’ve already imagined him in the pee pee tape.

    I have this issue where my mind visualises everything I read/hear.
    Even Max Verstappen feeding you a slice of pineapple pizza.
    While watching the Trump tape ?
    Been there done that.

    I was screaming my safe word for days.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,582

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I don't think that Trump will even be the nominee. The legal challenges he faces are complicated, damaging and distracting.
    He’s the American Bobby Sands.
    So he'll starve to death in prison ?
    Only if it's a long sentence.
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,225

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Well.

    Start-up backed by Rishi Sunak’s wife Akshata Murty given government grant

    The prime minister’s wife is a shareholder in a company that was awarded almost £350,000 of taxpayers’ money as part of a scheme to support entrepreneurs.

    Records at Companies House show that Catamaran Ventures UK Ltd, the investment company controlled by Akshata Murty, has a stake in Study Hall, an education technology start-up.

    Last year the business received a government grant of £349,976 through Innovate UK, the arm’s-length body that provides money and support to companies developing new products or services.

    Murty’s shareholding in a firm that has been the direct beneficiary of government funding raises fresh questions about her business dealings and the potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

    Study Hall, which aims to harness the power of artificial intelligence (AI) in schools, was founded by Sofia Fenichell, a tech entrepreneur. Her previous venture Mrs Wordsmith, another education start-up dedicated to promoting children’s literacy, collapsed in 2021 just six months after receiving state support.

    Mrs Wordsmith was given £650,000 of taxpayers’ money as a loan through the government’s Future Fund,


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/start-up-backed-by-rishi-sunak-s-wife-akshata-murty-given-government-grant-zpmk3k9w8

    Arcuri must be feeling shortchanged.
    I know, Sunak is even more sleazier than Boris Johnson.
    It's strange, isn't it. After all, Boris had need of the money, a louche lifestyle will do that to a chap. But Rishi is already insanely wealthy.

    If I (the mere son of a long-standing local councillor) know the importance of the "what would your behaviour look like on the front
    page of the paper" test, how come so many Conservative MPs don't?
    Except she owns about 2% of the company, one of about 10 minor shareholders with the founder owning 80%. I double she has any involvement in the company whatsoever - it looks like a classic friends and family round.

    Are you really saying that Study Hall shouldn’t access schemes that are available to any company?

    With allegations of this seriousness it’s disgraceful to make this kind of attack without a shred of evidence.
    Any close associate of the PM needs to be squeaky clean and to declare even the slightest conflict of interest if the sleaze and bungs to mates of the Johnson era is to be consigned to history.
    Are you saying she isn't 'squeaky clean' ?

    I wonder what you were saying about Cherie Blair and her friendship with fraudster Peter Foster back in the day? I also look forward to Starmer's wife getting the same attention so we can all check that she's 'squeaky clean'.
    Are there any examples of failures to declare conflicts of interest concerning Starmer’s wife?
    I've no idea. But the point is this: if Sunak's wife is to be put under this much examination, then so should Starmer's. What are her financials?

    As I said above; Cherie Blair shows that the wife of a Labour MP can be involved with some fairly dodgy people. If you want sunlight on Sunak's wife, then it would seem odd that you would not want such light on Starmer's wife.

    Sometimes all Labour has is smears. especially after such rich ground as they had with Johnson., who really was dodgy ;)
    Even local councillors are required to declare interests of spouses/partners, its rather bizarre MPs, who set those rules, always seem so stunned that, yes, a conflict involving their partner might still be relevant.

    All MPs just list your interests properly, it is not the onerous burden you act like it is.
    I'm unsure that I've commented on that process.

    As it happens, it wouldn't be very onerous for me, as our interests are fairly lightweight. I can imagine if you had more complex affairs - as people with lots of money often do - it could well be much more complex and onerous.

    And then there's the problems of allowing people to keep some privacy on their affairs as well.
    If people are rich enough to have onerous declaratory needs they are rich enough to pay someone to be organised about it so they themselves can make those declarations.

    The privacy thing is a red herring. The whole point of the declarations is that people in their position should be open and transparent about otherwise private affairs due to the nature of their power and position. They still have plenty of privacy, as do you even if people have to see what land you hold an interest in within the area of your authority. Even for councillors there are carve outs to withhold for sake of safety.

    There are rules about what needs declaring and what does not, and no doubt the line between can be argued about, but so long as some declarations are required some privacy is given up. That some people have more interests that have the potential to compromise them than others is not a reason to reduce the level, and nor is privacy - knowing the life partner of a minister has investments which are relevant to government work is not information which should be private.

    It's a fallacy if they argue they shouldn't need to do X because they need some privacy. They still have some. They are just voluntarily in a job where they have some restrictions.
    The privacy point is important for several reasons - one being that we're not talking about an individual here, we're talking about an individual's spouse. And possibly their kids and any good friends as well. Anyone that has interests that might gain the individual an advantage.

    IMO that's a difficult balance.
    Plenty of us have to comply with these rules because they are the rules that are in place. Why should the Prime Minister be held to a lower standard than say Charlotte Hogg?
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,450
    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    I am convinced that Trump is too toxic with independents now to win. The legal troubles will also serve as a constant drip-drip all the way through the next 18 months.

    I think the GOP base are mad enough to nominate him, I think they’re screwed for the general election if they do, however.
    Given De Santis is divisive within the GOP you have to think there’s a non-negligible chance of a third candidate coming through the middle for the nomination. Like Truss. They’d need to be on the conservative right of course, but the conditions are surely there.
    What the GOP really need is a “compassionate conservative” telegenic, charismatic governor who can appeal to moderates. A Republican Bill Clinton if you like. If there was such a candidate I think they’d walk 2024.

    But there is no chance of the base putting them forwards, so it’s a fantasy.

    Pence and Haley are perhaps the ones to take a closer look at to assess their chances, Haley seems to be popular but I would need to look into her politics a bit more to be convinced she would be able to step up if Trump/DeSantis faltered.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,269
    DavidL said:

    He will always have Ireland, if only he could remember it.

    Yay, at last, thank you, thank you. Like an anxious batsman I have been stuck on 99 off topics for months now. I have finally made my century! Today has not been wasted after all.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    I am convinced that Trump is too toxic with independents now to win. The legal troubles will also serve as a constant drip-drip all the way through the next 18 months.

    I think the GOP base are mad enough to nominate him, I think they’re screwed for the general election if they do, however.
    Given De Santis is divisive within the GOP you have to think there’s a non-negligible chance of a third candidate coming through the middle for the nomination. Like Truss. They’d need to be on the conservative right of course, but the conditions are surely there.
    What the GOP really need is a “compassionate conservative” telegenic, charismatic governor who can appeal to moderates. A Republican Bill Clinton if you like. If there was such a candidate I think they’d walk 2024.

    But there is no chance of the base putting them forwards, so it’s a fantasy.

    Pence and Haley are perhaps the ones to take a closer look at to assess their chances, Haley seems to be popular but I would need to look into her politics a bit more to be convinced she would be able to step up if Trump/DeSantis faltered.
    George W Bush was of course just such a 'compassionate conservative' governor in 2000 and won. Also the only Republican Presidential candidate this century to win the popular vote as he did in 2004
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,269
    maxh said:

    On topic I can’t decide between @HYUFD style optimism and @Sean_F style pessimism. @DavidL your confidence that he’ll be excluded sounds worryingly like the attitudes that dismissed his chances in 2016. If anyone can find their way around the various legal hurdles it’s him - not least delaying tactics. But then I bow to your superior legal knowledge (and cross all fingers and toes)!

    In short, I have no idea!

    I am not going to even pretend to understand the American legal system. Whether what I read in the American press is more wish fulfilment than reality we shall find out soon enough! But the reputational damage should be cumulative and destructive.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    I am convinced that Trump is too toxic with independents now to win. The legal troubles will also serve as a constant drip-drip all the way through the next 18 months.

    I think the GOP base are mad enough to nominate him, I think they’re screwed for the general election if they do, however.
    Given De Santis is divisive within the GOP you have to think there’s a non-negligible chance of a third candidate coming through the middle for the nomination. Like Truss. They’d need to be on the conservative right of course, but the conditions are surely there.
    What the GOP really need is a “compassionate conservative” telegenic, charismatic governor who can appeal to moderates. A Republican Bill Clinton if you like. If there was such a candidate I think they’d walk 2024.

    But there is no chance of the base putting them forwards, so it’s a fantasy.

    Pence and Haley are perhaps the ones to take a closer look at to assess their chances, Haley seems to be popular but I would need to look into her politics a bit more to be convinced she would be able to step up if Trump/DeSantis faltered.
    I have mixed feelings about Pence's chances. On the one hand he's the kind of figure that parties usually run against an incumbent. On the other hand, there are some signs that the base dislike him, for example that one occasion when they tried to lynch him.
    Evangelicals like Pence, staunch Trumpites don't. However Trump hates DeSantis more than Pence now
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,990
    Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Well.

    Start-up backed by Rishi Sunak’s wife Akshata Murty given government grant

    The prime minister’s wife is a shareholder in a company that was awarded almost £350,000 of taxpayers’ money as part of a scheme to support entrepreneurs.

    Records at Companies House show that Catamaran Ventures UK Ltd, the investment company controlled by Akshata Murty, has a stake in Study Hall, an education technology start-up.

    Last year the business received a government grant of £349,976 through Innovate UK, the arm’s-length body that provides money and support to companies developing new products or services.

    Murty’s shareholding in a firm that has been the direct beneficiary of government funding raises fresh questions about her business dealings and the potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

    Study Hall, which aims to harness the power of artificial intelligence (AI) in schools, was founded by Sofia Fenichell, a tech entrepreneur. Her previous venture Mrs Wordsmith, another education start-up dedicated to promoting children’s literacy, collapsed in 2021 just six months after receiving state support.

    Mrs Wordsmith was given £650,000 of taxpayers’ money as a loan through the government’s Future Fund,


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/start-up-backed-by-rishi-sunak-s-wife-akshata-murty-given-government-grant-zpmk3k9w8

    Arcuri must be feeling shortchanged.
    I know, Sunak is even more sleazier than Boris Johnson.
    It's strange, isn't it. After all, Boris had need of the money, a louche lifestyle will do that to a chap. But Rishi is already insanely wealthy.

    If I (the mere son of a long-standing local councillor) know the importance of the "what would your behaviour look like on the front
    page of the paper" test, how come so many Conservative MPs don't?
    Except she owns about 2% of the company, one of about 10 minor shareholders with the founder owning 80%. I double she has any involvement in the company whatsoever - it looks like a classic friends and family round.

    Are you really saying that Study Hall shouldn’t access schemes that are available to any company?

    With allegations of this seriousness it’s disgraceful to make this kind of attack without a shred of evidence.
    Any close associate of the PM needs to be squeaky clean and to declare even the slightest conflict of interest if the sleaze and bungs to mates of the Johnson era is to be consigned to history.
    Are you saying she isn't 'squeaky clean' ?

    I wonder what you were saying about Cherie Blair and her friendship with fraudster Peter Foster back in the day? I also look forward to Starmer's wife getting the same attention so we can all check that she's 'squeaky clean'.
    Are there any examples of failures to declare conflicts of interest concerning Starmer’s wife?
    I've no idea. But the point is this: if Sunak's wife is to be put under this much examination, then so should Starmer's. What are her financials?

    As I said above; Cherie Blair shows that the wife of a Labour MP can be involved with some fairly dodgy people. If you want sunlight on Sunak's wife, then it would seem odd that you would not want such light on Starmer's wife.

    Sometimes all Labour has is smears. especially after such rich ground as they had with Johnson., who really was dodgy ;)
    Even local councillors are required to declare interests of spouses/partners, its rather bizarre MPs, who set those rules, always seem so stunned that, yes, a conflict involving their partner might still be relevant.

    All MPs just list your interests properly, it is not the onerous burden you act like it is.
    I'm unsure that I've commented on that process.

    As it happens, it wouldn't be very onerous for me, as our interests are fairly lightweight. I can imagine if you had more complex affairs - as people with lots of money often do - it could well be much more complex and onerous.

    And then there's the problems of allowing people to keep some privacy on their affairs as well.
    If people are rich enough to have onerous declaratory needs they are rich enough to pay someone to be organised about it so they themselves can make those declarations.

    The privacy thing is a red herring. The whole point of the declarations is that people in their position should be open and transparent about otherwise private affairs due to the nature of their power and position. They still have plenty of privacy, as do you even if people have to see what land you hold an interest in within the area of your authority. Even for councillors there are carve outs to withhold for sake of safety.

    There are rules about what needs declaring and what does not, and no doubt the line between can be argued about, but so long as some declarations are required some privacy is given up. That some people have more interests that have the potential to compromise them than others is not a reason to reduce the level, and nor is privacy - knowing the life partner of a minister has investments which are relevant to government work is not information which should be private.

    It's a fallacy if they argue they shouldn't need to do X because they need some privacy. They still have some. They are just voluntarily in a job where they have some restrictions.
    The privacy point is important for several reasons - one being that we're not talking about an individual here, we're talking about an individual's spouse. And possibly their kids and any good friends as well. Anyone that has interests that might gain the individual an advantage.

    IMO that's a difficult balance.
    Plenty of us have to comply with these rules because they are the rules that are in place. Why should the Prime Minister be held to a lower standard than say Charlotte Hogg?
    Do you personally have to comply with these rules?

    And where have I said that the PM has to be held to a lower standard?

    And for anyone who thinks the rules over declarations are 'easy', remember Starmer and many others have got in trouble over the gift declartions in the past, over multiple breaches:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/04/keir-starmer-found-to-have-breached-mps-code-of-conduct-over-register-of-interests

    This is not a dig at Starmer: Mat Hancock and Jess Phillips are amongst several people under investigation for suspected breaches of various declaration rules; and Phillips has been reprimanded before.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jess-phillips-investigated-declarations-interests-b2327521.html

    So unless you think all of these people, from many parties, are crooks or fools (*), then it might suggest that there's some difficulty in the registration process and what needs registering.

    (*) Which might be reasonable
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,582
    .

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    I am convinced that Trump is too toxic with independents now to win. The legal troubles will also serve as a constant drip-drip all the way through the next 18 months.

    I think the GOP base are mad enough to nominate him, I think they’re screwed for the general election if they do, however.
    Given De Santis is divisive within the GOP you have to think there’s a non-negligible chance of a third candidate coming through the middle for the nomination. Like Truss. They’d need to be on the conservative right of course, but the conditions are surely there.
    What the GOP really need is a “compassionate conservative” telegenic, charismatic governor who can appeal to moderates. A Republican Bill Clinton if you like. If there was such a candidate I think they’d walk 2024.

    But there is no chance of the base putting them forwards, so it’s a fantasy.

    Pence and Haley are perhaps the ones to take a closer look at to assess their chances, Haley seems to be popular but I would need to look into her politics a bit more to be convinced she would be able to step up if Trump/DeSantis faltered.
    I have mixed feelings about Pence's chances. On the one hand he's the kind of figure that parties usually run against an incumbent. On the other hand, there are some signs that the base dislike him, for example that one occasion when they tried to lynch him.
    Pence has little chance; certainly less than Haley.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    Nigelb said:

    .

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    I am convinced that Trump is too toxic with independents now to win. The legal troubles will also serve as a constant drip-drip all the way through the next 18 months.

    I think the GOP base are mad enough to nominate him, I think they’re screwed for the general election if they do, however.
    Given De Santis is divisive within the GOP you have to think there’s a non-negligible chance of a third candidate coming through the middle for the nomination. Like Truss. They’d need to be on the conservative right of course, but the conditions are surely there.
    What the GOP really need is a “compassionate conservative” telegenic, charismatic governor who can appeal to moderates. A Republican Bill Clinton if you like. If there was such a candidate I think they’d walk 2024.

    But there is no chance of the base putting them forwards, so it’s a fantasy.

    Pence and Haley are perhaps the ones to take a closer look at to assess their chances, Haley seems to be popular but I would need to look into her politics a bit more to be convinced she would be able to step up if Trump/DeSantis faltered.
    I have mixed feelings about Pence's chances. On the one hand he's the kind of figure that parties usually run against an incumbent. On the other hand, there are some signs that the base dislike him, for example that one occasion when they tried to lynch him.
    Pence has little chance; certainly less than Haley.
    Yeah, I see him as the kingmaker: I think he gets his 6th place in Iowa or whatever, backs the most viable anti-Trump candidate, gives up trying to appeal to the Trumpists and spends the rest of the campaign dishing dirt.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    Populism in its basic 2010s form does seem to have subsided in most places, including the US. That basic form being voters opting for charismatic self-styled outsiders and strongmen simply to shake things up a bit. Voters eventually got the measure of Trump, Bolsonaro, Corbyn, Wilders, Johnson etc. The place they seem to live on - because they’ve not yet been inoculated by real populist power - is in France with Melenchon and Le Pen.

    In the US though the hard ideological currents that underpin the culture wars seem to be alive and well though, on both right and left. There’s still a chance Trump could ride on these for a while.
    And, it's important politicians learn the right lessons from that.

    It's not that the electorate or the politicians they elected were "wrong", and their critics have now been vindicated; it's that voters want solutions to the issues they're raise that they feel traditional politicians have ignored. Not just rhetoric.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    edited May 2023

    kle4 said:

    Much shorter version - if you are a public servant and you have a lot of interests, that's an sign of needing greater transparency on your interests, not less because it's a bigger hassle for you.

    Yes - but there would also be many more edge cases; cases where people could reasonably disagree whether they should be declared or not.
    If in doubt declare. That is a very minor burden of over declaration versus the potentially compromising failure to declare.

    And I disagree about the number of edge cases. Most of the cases we see reported late or not at all are bloody obvious, indicating the issue is not confusion but entitlement - why should I have to do this?

    I don't believe MPs should be de facto regarded as up to no good, but it's better for them to be careful and over declare than careless and under declare.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    My reasoning is that the US is so polarised that the Democrats could nominate Al Sharpton and the Republicans Joe Arpaio, and each one would be assured of 45% of the vote.

    The good results for the Democrats in 2022 should be compared to the good Republican results, down-ballot, in 2020. Unlike most incoming Presidents, Biden had no coat-tails. That points to an electorate that just isn’t interested in how good or bad the candidates are. They just vote for their own sons of bitches.

    That leaves little margin of error. I’d only make Biden a slight favourite to beat Trump.
    And you might well be right.

    I have little real feeling for American politics.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    Certainly possible. Far too close.
  • Options
    On topic, if I was the Republicans, my slogan for this campaign would be "Vote Biden, Get Harris".

    Also, I see Trump has now switched the "Crooked" moniker to "Crooked Joe Biden". There's talk Hunter B may do a plea deal on a few charges which may be the smart deal to do now but there's a question as to where that then leads.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    edited May 2023

    Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Well.

    Start-up backed by Rishi Sunak’s wife Akshata Murty given government grant

    The prime minister’s wife is a shareholder in a company that was awarded almost £350,000 of taxpayers’ money as part of a scheme to support entrepreneurs.

    Records at Companies House show that Catamaran Ventures UK Ltd, the investment company controlled by Akshata Murty, has a stake in Study Hall, an education technology start-up.

    Last year the business received a government grant of £349,976 through Innovate UK, the arm’s-length body that provides money and support to companies developing new products or services.

    Murty’s shareholding in a firm that has been the direct beneficiary of government funding raises fresh questions about her business dealings and the potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

    Study Hall, which aims to harness the power of artificial intelligence (AI) in schools, was founded by Sofia Fenichell, a tech entrepreneur. Her previous venture Mrs Wordsmith, another education start-up dedicated to promoting children’s literacy, collapsed in 2021 just six months after receiving state support.

    Mrs Wordsmith was given £650,000 of taxpayers’ money as a loan through the government’s Future Fund,


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/start-up-backed-by-rishi-sunak-s-wife-akshata-murty-given-government-grant-zpmk3k9w8

    Arcuri must be feeling shortchanged.
    I know, Sunak is even more sleazier than Boris Johnson.
    It's strange, isn't it. After all, Boris had need of the money, a louche lifestyle will do that to a chap. But Rishi is already insanely wealthy.

    If I (the mere son of a long-standing local councillor) know the importance of the "what would your behaviour look like on the front
    page of the paper" test, how come so many Conservative MPs don't?
    Except she owns about 2% of the company, one of about 10 minor shareholders with the founder owning 80%. I double she has any involvement in the company whatsoever - it looks like a classic friends and family round.

    Are you really saying that Study Hall shouldn’t access schemes that are available to any company?

    With allegations of this seriousness it’s disgraceful to make this kind of attack without a shred of evidence.
    Any close associate of the PM needs to be squeaky clean and to declare even the slightest conflict of interest if the sleaze and bungs to mates of the Johnson era is to be consigned to history.
    Are you saying she isn't 'squeaky clean' ?

    I wonder what you were saying about Cherie Blair and her friendship with fraudster Peter Foster back in the day? I also look forward to Starmer's wife getting the same attention so we can all check that she's 'squeaky clean'.
    Are there any examples of failures to declare conflicts of interest concerning Starmer’s wife?
    I've no idea. But the point is this: if Sunak's wife is to be put under this much examination, then so should Starmer's. What are her financials?

    As I said above; Cherie Blair shows that the wife of a Labour MP can be involved with some fairly dodgy people. If you want sunlight on Sunak's wife, then it would seem odd that you would not want such light on Starmer's wife.

    Sometimes all Labour has is smears. especially after such rich ground as they had with Johnson., who really was dodgy ;)
    Even local councillors are required to declare interests of spouses/partners, its rather bizarre MPs, who set those rules, always seem so stunned that, yes, a conflict involving their partner might still be relevant.

    All MPs just list your interests properly, it is not the onerous burden you act like it is.
    I'm unsure that I've commented on that process.

    As it happens, it wouldn't be very onerous for me, as our interests are fairly lightweight. I can imagine if you had more complex affairs - as people with lots of money often do - it could well be much more complex and onerous.

    And then there's the problems of allowing people to keep some privacy on their affairs as well.
    If people are rich enough to have onerous declaratory needs they are rich enough to pay someone to be organised about it so they themselves can make those declarations.

    The privacy thing is a red herring. The whole point of the declarations is that people in their position should be open and transparent about otherwise private affairs due to the nature of their power and position. They still have plenty of privacy, as do you even if people have to see what land you hold an interest in within the area of your authority. Even for councillors there are carve outs to withhold for sake of safety.

    There are rules about what needs declaring and what does not, and no doubt the line between can be argued about, but so long as some declarations are required some privacy is given up. That some people have more interests that have the potential to compromise them than others is not a reason to reduce the level, and nor is privacy - knowing the life partner of a minister has investments which are relevant to government work is not information which should be private.

    It's a fallacy if they argue they shouldn't need to do X because they need some privacy. They still have some. They are just voluntarily in a job where they have some restrictions.
    The privacy point is important for several reasons - one being that we're not talking about an individual here, we're talking about an individual's spouse. And possibly their kids and any good friends as well. Anyone that has interests that might gain the individual an advantage.

    IMO that's a difficult balance.
    Plenty of us have to comply with these rules because they are the rules that are in place. Why should the Prime Minister be held to a lower standard than say Charlotte Hogg?
    Do you personally have to comply with these rules?

    And where have I said that the PM has to be held to a lower standard?

    And for anyone who thinks the rules over declarations are 'easy', remember Starmer and many others have got in trouble over the gift declartions in the past, over multiple breaches:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/04/keir-starmer-found-to-have-breached-mps-code-of-conduct-over-register-of-interests

    This is not a dig at Starmer: Mat Hancock and Jess Phillips are amongst several people under investigation for suspected breaches of various declaration rules; and Phillips has been reprimanded before.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jess-phillips-investigated-declarations-interests-b2327521.html

    So unless you think all of these people, from many parties, are crooks or fools (*), then it might suggest that there's some difficulty in the registration process and what needs registering.

    (*) Which might be reasonable
    I do think its easy. They all get in trouble because they dont give it enough attention as they are busy people and probably leave it to their office without properly looking it over. They need to make the time and ensure they understand the obligations, as clearly many dont.

    It's like election rules - are some complex? Sure. So complex parties with professional staff cannot figure it out and ensure candidates and agents know the rules? No.

    And whilst you haven't said PMs should be held to a lower standard I would argue you are balancing too much on how its complex or a hassle for the individual and not enough on the potential seriousness if they get something wrong and thus why it is made detailed and to a degree invasive in the first place.

    In the long run it is to their benefit to be so exposed.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    As a septuagenarian, I'd worry about Biden's age, it looks reminiscent of the Politburo.

    I watched the Ch4 programmes last night. A little disappointing. The Harry Enfield one needed translating for me, as I knew bugger all about all the Princes and who was meant to be who. My wife, born in Co Cork, who's more IRA than royalist, helped me a little. "That's meant to be Sophie," she said.

    "Who's she?"

    I recognised Princess Anne - but that was the only one.

    Frankie Boyle wasn't in his element. William the Conquerer? He wasn't a nice man. There's a shock. He wasn't very English either. Nor was Richard III. And Henry VIII was nothing to write home about. So what? I don't claim to be a historian, but wasn't James I or VI (of Scotland) who he didn't mention was probably the worst of all. An embezzler so famous, the courtiers he brought with him from Scotland were made famous in a nursery rhyme. According to Wiki ... "The most likely origin has it describing the arrival of King James 1st (in his velvet gown) at the English Court together with various impoverished Scottish nobility."

    'Hark, hark. the dogs do bark, the beggars are coming to town.
    Some in rags, and some in jags, and some in a velvet gown.'

    It would make the today's SNP look like amateurs.



  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,173
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    I am convinced that Trump is too toxic with independents now to win. The legal troubles will also serve as a constant drip-drip all the way through the next 18 months.

    I think the GOP base are mad enough to nominate him, I think they’re screwed for the general election if they do, however.
    Given De Santis is divisive within the GOP you have to think there’s a non-negligible chance of a third candidate coming through the middle for the nomination. Like Truss. They’d need to be on the conservative right of course, but the conditions are surely there.
    What the GOP really need is a “compassionate conservative” telegenic, charismatic governor who can appeal to moderates. A Republican Bill Clinton if you like. If there was such a candidate I think they’d walk 2024.

    But there is no chance of the base putting them forwards, so it’s a fantasy.

    Pence and Haley are perhaps the ones to take a closer look at to assess their chances, Haley seems to be popular but I would need to look into her politics a bit more to be convinced she would be able to step up if Trump/DeSantis faltered.
    George W Bush was of course just such a 'compassionate conservative' governor in 2000 and won. Also the only Republican Presidential candidate this century to win the popular vote as he did in 2004
    Have you not seen his humourous commentary about signing off the execution of, I believe, a mentally ill female death rower. How he laughed.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599

    Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Well.

    Start-up backed by Rishi Sunak’s wife Akshata Murty given government grant

    The prime minister’s wife is a shareholder in a company that was awarded almost £350,000 of taxpayers’ money as part of a scheme to support entrepreneurs.

    Records at Companies House show that Catamaran Ventures UK Ltd, the investment company controlled by Akshata Murty, has a stake in Study Hall, an education technology start-up.

    Last year the business received a government grant of £349,976 through Innovate UK, the arm’s-length body that provides money and support to companies developing new products or services.

    Murty’s shareholding in a firm that has been the direct beneficiary of government funding raises fresh questions about her business dealings and the potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

    Study Hall, which aims to harness the power of artificial intelligence (AI) in schools, was founded by Sofia Fenichell, a tech entrepreneur. Her previous venture Mrs Wordsmith, another education start-up dedicated to promoting children’s literacy, collapsed in 2021 just six months after receiving state support.

    Mrs Wordsmith was given £650,000 of taxpayers’ money as a loan through the government’s Future Fund,


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/start-up-backed-by-rishi-sunak-s-wife-akshata-murty-given-government-grant-zpmk3k9w8

    Arcuri must be feeling shortchanged.
    I know, Sunak is even more sleazier than Boris Johnson.
    It's strange, isn't it. After all, Boris had need of the money, a louche lifestyle will do that to a chap. But Rishi is already insanely wealthy.

    If I (the mere son of a long-standing local councillor) know the importance of the "what would your behaviour look like on the front
    page of the paper" test, how come so many Conservative MPs don't?
    Except she owns about 2% of the company, one of about 10 minor shareholders with the founder owning 80%. I double she has any involvement in the company whatsoever - it looks like a classic friends and family round.

    Are you really saying that Study Hall shouldn’t access schemes that are available to any company?

    With allegations of this seriousness it’s disgraceful to make this kind of attack without a shred of evidence.
    Any close associate of the PM needs to be squeaky clean and to declare even the slightest conflict of interest if the sleaze and bungs to mates of the Johnson era is to be consigned to history.
    Are you saying she isn't 'squeaky clean' ?

    I wonder what you were saying about Cherie Blair and her friendship with fraudster Peter Foster back in the day? I also look forward to Starmer's wife getting the same attention so we can all check that she's 'squeaky clean'.
    Are there any examples of failures to declare conflicts of interest concerning Starmer’s wife?
    I've no idea. But the point is this: if Sunak's wife is to be put under this much examination, then so should Starmer's. What are her financials?

    As I said above; Cherie Blair shows that the wife of a Labour MP can be involved with some fairly dodgy people. If you want sunlight on Sunak's wife, then it would seem odd that you would not want such light on Starmer's wife.

    Sometimes all Labour has is smears. especially after such rich ground as they had with Johnson., who really was dodgy ;)
    Even local councillors are required to declare interests of spouses/partners, its rather bizarre MPs, who set those rules, always seem so stunned that, yes, a conflict involving their partner might still be relevant.

    All MPs just list your interests properly, it is not the onerous burden you act like it is.
    I'm unsure that I've commented on that process.

    As it happens, it wouldn't be very onerous for me, as our interests are fairly lightweight. I can imagine if you had more complex affairs - as people with lots of money often do - it could well be much more complex and onerous.

    And then there's the problems of allowing people to keep some privacy on their affairs as well.
    If people are rich enough to have onerous declaratory needs they are rich enough to pay someone to be organised about it so they themselves can make those declarations.

    The privacy thing is a red herring. The whole point of the declarations is that people in their position should be open and transparent about otherwise private affairs due to the nature of their power and position. They still have plenty of privacy, as do you even if people have to see what land you hold an interest in within the area of your authority. Even for councillors there are carve outs to withhold for sake of safety.

    There are rules about what needs declaring and what does not, and no doubt the line between can be argued about, but so long as some declarations are required some privacy is given up. That some people have more interests that have the potential to compromise them than others is not a reason to reduce the level, and nor is privacy - knowing the life partner of a minister has investments which are relevant to government work is not information which should be private.

    It's a fallacy if they argue they shouldn't need to do X because they need some privacy. They still have some. They are just voluntarily in a job where they have some restrictions.
    The privacy point is important for several reasons - one being that we're not talking about an individual here, we're talking about an individual's spouse. And possibly their kids and any good friends as well. Anyone that has interests that might gain the individual an advantage.

    IMO that's a difficult balance.
    Plenty of us have to comply with these rules because they are the rules that are in place. Why should the Prime Minister be held to a lower standard than say Charlotte Hogg?
    Do you personally have to comply with these rules?

    And where have I said that the PM has to be held to a lower standard?

    And for anyone who thinks the rules over declarations are 'easy', remember Starmer and many others have got in trouble over the gift declartions in the past, over multiple breaches:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/04/keir-starmer-found-to-have-breached-mps-code-of-conduct-over-register-of-interests

    This is not a dig at Starmer: Mat Hancock and Jess Phillips are amongst several people under investigation for suspected breaches of various declaration rules; and Phillips has been reprimanded before.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jess-phillips-investigated-declarations-interests-b2327521.html

    So unless you think all of these people, from many parties, are crooks or fools (*), then it might suggest that there's some difficulty in the registration process and what needs registering.

    (*) Which might be reasonable
    Multiple breeches for Starmer that are in the words of the investigation: “I found that, based on the information available to me, the breaches were minor and/or inadvertent, and that there was no deliberate attempt to mislead." These include football tickets declared a day late etc.

    If that is the best that the Tories can muster, then I think Starmer fairly impeccable in terms of personal integrity compared to the Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet.

    It's his policies that I don't like, rather than his character.

  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377

    Seems a bit harsh considering sex offenders and thieves keep their jobs.

    A police officer has been dismissed from GMP for drink driving. PC Jarmila Kocanova, who was convicted for the offence after pleading guilty in court last June, was more than four times the legal limit when she was caught.

    Apologising for her actions, the Rochdale resident said she 'genuinely regrets' the events which took place last April. At a misconduct hearing on Friday (April 28), a Police Federation representative urged the force not to dismiss her, telling GMP's top cop that the move would effectively make her homeless.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/pregnant-gmp-officer-who-begged-26807119

    Was she under 25, and therefore not responsible for her actions?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    I am convinced that Trump is too toxic with independents now to win. The legal troubles will also serve as a constant drip-drip all the way through the next 18 months.

    I think the GOP base are mad enough to nominate him, I think they’re screwed for the general election if they do, however.
    Given De Santis is divisive within the GOP you have to think there’s a non-negligible chance of a third candidate coming through the middle for the nomination. Like Truss. They’d need to be on the conservative right of course, but the conditions are surely there.
    What the GOP really need is a “compassionate conservative” telegenic, charismatic governor who can appeal to moderates. A Republican Bill Clinton if you like. If there was such a candidate I think they’d walk 2024.

    But there is no chance of the base putting them forwards, so it’s a fantasy.

    Pence and Haley are perhaps the ones to take a closer look at to assess their chances, Haley seems to be popular but I would need to look into her politics a bit more to be convinced she would be able to step up if Trump/DeSantis faltered.
    I have mixed feelings about Pence's chances. On the one hand he's the kind of figure that parties usually run against an incumbent. On the other hand, there are some signs that the base dislike him, for example that one occasion when they tried to lynch him.
    Evangelicals like Pence, staunch Trumpites don't. However Trump hates DeSantis more than Pence now
    Thats because DeSantis is an actual threat, if a rapidly declining one.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Well.

    Start-up backed by Rishi Sunak’s wife Akshata Murty given government grant

    The prime minister’s wife is a shareholder in a company that was awarded almost £350,000 of taxpayers’ money as part of a scheme to support entrepreneurs.

    Records at Companies House show that Catamaran Ventures UK Ltd, the investment company controlled by Akshata Murty, has a stake in Study Hall, an education technology start-up.

    Last year the business received a government grant of £349,976 through Innovate UK, the arm’s-length body that provides money and support to companies developing new products or services.

    Murty’s shareholding in a firm that has been the direct beneficiary of government funding raises fresh questions about her business dealings and the potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

    Study Hall, which aims to harness the power of artificial intelligence (AI) in schools, was founded by Sofia Fenichell, a tech entrepreneur. Her previous venture Mrs Wordsmith, another education start-up dedicated to promoting children’s literacy, collapsed in 2021 just six months after receiving state support.

    Mrs Wordsmith was given £650,000 of taxpayers’ money as a loan through the government’s Future Fund,


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/start-up-backed-by-rishi-sunak-s-wife-akshata-murty-given-government-grant-zpmk3k9w8

    Arcuri must be feeling shortchanged.
    I know, Sunak is even more sleazier than Boris Johnson.
    It's strange, isn't it. After all, Boris had need of the money, a louche lifestyle will do that to a chap. But Rishi is already insanely wealthy.

    If I (the mere son of a long-standing local councillor) know the importance of the "what would your behaviour look like on the front
    page of the paper" test, how come so many Conservative MPs don't?
    Except she owns about 2% of the company, one of about 10 minor shareholders with the founder owning 80%. I double she has any involvement in the company whatsoever - it looks like a classic friends and family round.

    Are you really saying that Study Hall shouldn’t access schemes that are available to any company?

    With allegations of this seriousness it’s disgraceful to make this kind of attack without a shred of evidence.
    Any close associate of the PM needs to be squeaky clean and to declare even the slightest conflict of interest if the sleaze and bungs to mates of the Johnson era is to be consigned to history.
    Are you saying she isn't 'squeaky clean' ?

    I wonder what you were saying about Cherie Blair and her friendship with fraudster Peter Foster back in the day? I also look forward to Starmer's wife getting the same attention so we can all check that she's 'squeaky clean'.
    Are there any examples of failures to declare conflicts of interest concerning Starmer’s wife?
    I've no idea. But the point is this: if Sunak's wife is to be put under this much examination, then so should Starmer's. What are her financials?

    As I said above; Cherie Blair shows that the wife of a Labour MP can be involved with some fairly dodgy people. If you want sunlight on Sunak's wife, then it would seem odd that you would not want such light on Starmer's wife.

    Sometimes all Labour has is smears. especially after such rich ground as they had with Johnson., who really was dodgy ;)
    Even local councillors are required to declare interests of spouses/partners, its rather bizarre MPs, who set those rules, always seem so stunned that, yes, a conflict involving their partner might still be relevant.

    All MPs just list your interests properly, it is not the onerous burden you act like it is.
    I'm unsure that I've commented on that process.

    As it happens, it wouldn't be very onerous for me, as our interests are fairly lightweight. I can imagine if you had more complex affairs - as people with lots of money often do - it could well be much more complex and onerous.

    And then there's the problems of allowing people to keep some privacy on their affairs as well.
    If people are rich enough to have onerous declaratory needs they are rich enough to pay someone to be organised about it so they themselves can make those declarations.

    The privacy thing is a red herring. The whole point of the declarations is that people in their position should be open and transparent about otherwise private affairs due to the nature of their power and position. They still have plenty of privacy, as do you even if people have to see what land you hold an interest in within the area of your authority. Even for councillors there are carve outs to withhold for sake of safety.

    There are rules about what needs declaring and what does not, and no doubt the line between can be argued about, but so long as some declarations are required some privacy is given up. That some people have more interests that have the potential to compromise them than others is not a reason to reduce the level, and nor is privacy - knowing the life partner of a minister has investments which are relevant to government work is not information which should be private.

    It's a fallacy if they argue they shouldn't need to do X because they need some privacy. They still have some. They are just voluntarily in a job where they have some restrictions.
    The privacy point is important for several reasons - one being that we're not talking about an individual here, we're talking about an individual's spouse. And possibly their kids and any good friends as well. Anyone that has interests that might gain the individual an advantage.

    IMO that's a difficult balance.
    Except as noted even councillors have to declare spousal interests. Its something MPs recognised could be very relevant. Kids interests are not required, though many would need to declare though not register such a thing, and with close friends.

    Yes, partners should be off limits in the sense they are not involved in general political matters. But there are very good reasons the interests of a partner can be relevant, as the PMs case shows - it's a small thing, but needs to be known so no question of impropriety. It's not possible to assume any interests of a spouse are of no consequence.

    Thats why a harder line is taken. They still have plenty of privacy, but top political figures have always had family in the public eye to some degree.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    Sounds good in theory, I await more detail.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,334

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    The whole trip sounds rather awesome, but I missed the early posts. Why are you doing it?
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,528
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    Sounds good in theory, I await more detail.
    There are problems here for both the parties that actually seek government. Both Labour and Tory have a tranche of voters and influencers of significant wealth and power who, while wanting what is good for the country as a whole, have no intention of this spoiling their view or interfering with their privilege.

    The Labour group among these is growing.

    Wait and see, for example, if Labour intend that the % of the value of a house in Hartlepool paid in council tax is going to remain very substantially higher than the % of the value of a house paid in council tax in Hampstead.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    Sounds good in theory, I await more detail.
    The Green side of the party would lose their shit if this is actually attempted. The Lib Dem’s will NIMBY up to get the seats.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,410
    edited May 2023

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    This holiday must be costing you a fortune in trainers.
  • Options
    BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,223

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    The whole trip sounds rather awesome, but I missed the early posts. Why are you doing it?
    I’m walking the Tro Breizh, an ancient pilgrimage to sites of th seven Saints of Brittany (the ones who brought Christianity here from Wales and Cornwall). I started in Saint-Malo rather than Quimper because that’s where the ferry goes

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tro_Breizh

    I’m not quite sure why I decided to do it though..
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Well.

    Start-up backed by Rishi Sunak’s wife Akshata Murty given government grant

    The prime minister’s wife is a shareholder in a company that was awarded almost £350,000 of taxpayers’ money as part of a scheme to support entrepreneurs.

    Records at Companies House show that Catamaran Ventures UK Ltd, the investment company controlled by Akshata Murty, has a stake in Study Hall, an education technology start-up.

    Last year the business received a government grant of £349,976 through Innovate UK, the arm’s-length body that provides money and support to companies developing new products or services.

    Murty’s shareholding in a firm that has been the direct beneficiary of government funding raises fresh questions about her business dealings and the potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

    Study Hall, which aims to harness the power of artificial intelligence (AI) in schools, was founded by Sofia Fenichell, a tech entrepreneur. Her previous venture Mrs Wordsmith, another education start-up dedicated to promoting children’s literacy, collapsed in 2021 just six months after receiving state support.

    Mrs Wordsmith was given £650,000 of taxpayers’ money as a loan through the government’s Future Fund,


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/start-up-backed-by-rishi-sunak-s-wife-akshata-murty-given-government-grant-zpmk3k9w8

    Arcuri must be feeling shortchanged.
    I know, Sunak is even more sleazier than Boris Johnson.
    It's strange, isn't it. After all, Boris had need of the money, a louche lifestyle will do that to a chap. But Rishi is already insanely wealthy.

    If I (the mere son of a long-standing local councillor) know the importance of the "what would your behaviour look like on the front
    page of the paper" test, how come so many Conservative MPs don't?
    Except she owns about 2% of the company, one of about 10 minor shareholders with the founder owning 80%. I double she has any involvement in the company whatsoever - it looks like a classic friends and family round.

    Are you really saying that Study Hall shouldn’t access schemes that are available to any company?

    With allegations of this seriousness it’s disgraceful to make this kind of attack without a shred of evidence.
    Any close associate of the PM needs to be squeaky clean and to declare even the slightest conflict of interest if the sleaze and bungs to mates of the Johnson era is to be consigned to history.
    Are you saying she isn't 'squeaky clean' ?

    I wonder what you were saying about Cherie Blair and her friendship with fraudster Peter Foster back in the day? I also look forward to Starmer's wife getting the same attention so we can all check that she's 'squeaky clean'.
    Are there any examples of failures to declare conflicts of interest concerning Starmer’s wife?
    I've no idea. But the point is this: if Sunak's wife is to be put under this much examination, then so should Starmer's. What are her financials?

    As I said above; Cherie Blair shows that the wife of a Labour MP can be involved with some fairly dodgy people. If you want sunlight on Sunak's wife, then it would seem odd that you would not want such light on Starmer's wife.

    Sometimes all Labour has is smears. especially after such rich ground as they had with Johnson., who really was dodgy ;)
    Even local councillors are required to declare interests of spouses/partners, its rather bizarre MPs, who set those rules, always seem so stunned that, yes, a conflict involving their partner might still be relevant.

    All MPs just list your interests properly, it is not the onerous burden you act like it is.
    I'm unsure that I've commented on that process.

    As it happens, it wouldn't be very onerous for me, as our interests are fairly lightweight. I can imagine if you had more complex affairs - as people with lots of money often do - it could well be much more complex and onerous.

    And then there's the problems of allowing people to keep some privacy on their affairs as well.
    If people are rich enough to have onerous declaratory needs they are rich enough to pay someone to be organised about it so they themselves can make those declarations.

    The privacy thing is a red herring. The whole point of the declarations is that people in their position should be open and transparent about otherwise private affairs due to the nature of their power and position. They still have plenty of privacy, as do you even if people have to see what land you hold an interest in within the area of your authority. Even for councillors there are carve outs to withhold for sake of safety.

    There are rules about what needs declaring and what does not, and no doubt the line between can be argued about, but so long as some declarations are required some privacy is given up. That some people have more interests that have the potential to compromise them than others is not a reason to reduce the level, and nor is privacy - knowing the life partner of a minister has investments which are relevant to government work is not information which should be private.

    It's a fallacy if they argue they shouldn't need to do X because they need some privacy. They still have some. They are just voluntarily in a job where they have some restrictions.
    The privacy point is important for several reasons - one being that we're not talking about an individual here, we're talking about an individual's spouse. And possibly their kids and any good friends as well. Anyone that has interests that might gain the individual an advantage.

    IMO that's a difficult balance.
    Plenty of us have to comply with these rules because they are the rules that are in place. Why should the Prime Minister be held to a lower standard than say Charlotte Hogg?
    Do you personally have to comply with these rules?

    And where have I said that the PM has to be held to a lower standard?

    And for anyone who thinks the rules over declarations are 'easy', remember Starmer and many others have got in trouble over the gift declartions in the past, over multiple breaches:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/04/keir-starmer-found-to-have-breached-mps-code-of-conduct-over-register-of-interests

    This is not a dig at Starmer: Mat Hancock and Jess Phillips are amongst several people under investigation for suspected breaches of various declaration rules; and Phillips has been reprimanded before.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jess-phillips-investigated-declarations-interests-b2327521.html

    So unless you think all of these people, from many parties, are crooks or fools (*), then it might suggest that there's some difficulty in the registration process and what needs registering.

    (*) Which might be reasonable
    Multiple breeches for Starmer that are in the words of the investigation: “I found that, based on the information available to me, the breaches were minor and/or inadvertent, and that there was no deliberate attempt to mislead." These include football tickets declared a day late etc.

    If that is the best that the Tories can muster, then I think Starmer fairly impeccable in terms of personal integrity compared to the Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet.

    It's his policies that I don't like, rather than his character.

    Carelessness not maliciousness. It's what wrist slapping is for, not a big deal.

    That's what happens most of the time and is reasonable. Most are not Paterson.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    Sounds good in theory, I await more detail.
    The Green side of the party would lose their shit if this is actually attempted. The Lib Dem’s will NIMBY up to get the seats.
    They can NIMBY more?!
  • Options
    BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,223

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    This holiday must be costing you a fortune in trainers.
    I’m hoping that my brand new Scarpa walking shoes will last a bit longer than trainers would!
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,129

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    The whole trip sounds rather awesome, but I missed the early posts. Why are you doing it?
    I’m walking the Tro Breizh, an ancient pilgrimage to sites of th seven Saints of Brittany (the ones who brought Christianity here from Wales and Cornwall). I started in Saint-Malo rather than Quimper because that’s where the ferry goes

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tro_Breizh

    I’m not quite sure why I decided to do it though..
    It’s a staggering amount of walking. Do you ever get bored? Listen to music or podcasts as you go?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    This holiday must be costing you a fortune in trainers.
    I’m hoping that my brand new Scarpa walking shoes will last a bit longer than trainers would!
    What socks are you using with the shoes? - I always think of it as a system…
  • Options
    maxhmaxh Posts: 825
    edited May 2023
    DavidL said:

    maxh said:

    On topic I can’t decide between @HYUFD style optimism and @Sean_F style pessimism. @DavidL your confidence that he’ll be excluded sounds worryingly like the attitudes that dismissed his chances in 2016. If anyone can find their way around the various legal hurdles it’s him - not least delaying tactics. But then I bow to your superior legal knowledge (and cross all fingers and toes)!

    In short, I have no idea!

    I am not going to even pretend to understand the American legal system. Whether what I read in the American press is more wish fulfilment than reality we shall find out soon enough! But the reputational damage should be cumulative and destructive.
    …should be… is precisely what worries me! I hope you’re right.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735

    On topic, if I was the Republicans, my slogan for this campaign would be "Vote Biden, Get Harris".

    Also, I see Trump has now switched the "Crooked" moniker to "Crooked Joe Biden". There's talk Hunter B may do a plea deal on a few charges which may be the smart deal to do now but there's a question as to where that then leads.

    Not bad but trumped with Vote Trump, Get Trump.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,129

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    This holiday must be costing you a fortune in trainers.
    I’m hoping that my brand new Scarpa walking shoes will last a bit longer than trainers would!
    Scarpa is a brilliant brand. Worth the ££
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    Sounds good in theory, I await more detail.
    The Green side of the party would lose their shit if this is actually attempted. The Lib Dem’s will NIMBY up to get the seats.
    Though actually it us very well targeted in blue seats with LD challengers. Not only is it a good policy, but one with little downside for Labour.

    We have a new village probably starting shortly just north of Leicester (which doesn't have a formal greenbelt). I think it will be very popular:

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/plans-creating-new-leicestershire-village-8392511#amp-readmore-target
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    It seems as though the Local Plans won't have a lot of power but it's often those which bring down local administrations when the electorate perceive what is being planned as not being in keeping with what is there.

    That's the thing - Conservatives throw accusations of NIMBYism around at Liberal Democrats, Residents and others opposed to proposed developments but there's a world of difference between being opposed to housing (whichb no one is) and being opposed to high density developments on greenfield sites without adequate supporting infrastructure which seem to be more about maximising the profits of developers than providing sustainable local communities.

    Many would also argue brownfield sites should be the starting point (in my part of the world that's really all there is) but of course we know that reduces developer profits because of the need to decontaminate or do additional preparatory work.

    Supporting infrastructure such as schools, transport and GP surgeries also needs to be considered in order not to put unreasonable pressure on what's there and most larger developments should contain retail and other business opportunities to provide jobs for the new residents.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,129
    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    edited May 2023

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Well.

    Start-up backed by Rishi Sunak’s wife Akshata Murty given government grant

    The prime minister’s wife is a shareholder in a company that was awarded almost £350,000 of taxpayers’ money as part of a scheme to support entrepreneurs.

    Records at Companies House show that Catamaran Ventures UK Ltd, the investment company controlled by Akshata Murty, has a stake in Study Hall, an education technology start-up.

    Last year the business received a government grant of £349,976 through Innovate UK, the arm’s-length body that provides money and support to companies developing new products or services.

    Murty’s shareholding in a firm that has been the direct beneficiary of government funding raises fresh questions about her business dealings and the potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

    Study Hall, which aims to harness the power of artificial intelligence (AI) in schools, was founded by Sofia Fenichell, a tech entrepreneur. Her previous venture Mrs Wordsmith, another education start-up dedicated to promoting children’s literacy, collapsed in 2021 just six months after receiving state support.

    Mrs Wordsmith was given £650,000 of taxpayers’ money as a loan through the government’s Future Fund,


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/start-up-backed-by-rishi-sunak-s-wife-akshata-murty-given-government-grant-zpmk3k9w8

    Arcuri must be feeling shortchanged.
    I know, Sunak is even more sleazier than Boris Johnson.
    It's strange, isn't it. After all, Boris had need of the money, a louche lifestyle will do that to a chap. But Rishi is already insanely wealthy.

    If I (the mere son of a long-standing local councillor) know the importance of the "what would your behaviour look like on the front
    page of the paper" test, how come so many Conservative MPs don't?
    Except she owns about 2% of the company, one of about 10 minor shareholders with the founder owning 80%. I double she has any involvement in the company whatsoever - it looks like a classic friends and family round.

    Are you really saying that Study Hall shouldn’t access schemes that are available to any company?

    With allegations of this seriousness it’s disgraceful to make this kind of attack without a shred of evidence.
    Any close associate of the PM needs to be squeaky clean and to declare even the slightest conflict of interest if the sleaze and bungs to mates of the Johnson era is to be consigned to history.
    Are you saying she isn't 'squeaky clean' ?

    I wonder what you were saying about Cherie Blair and her friendship with fraudster Peter Foster back in the day? I also look forward to Starmer's wife getting the same attention so we can all check that she's 'squeaky clean'.
    Are there any examples of failures to declare conflicts of interest concerning Starmer’s wife?
    I've no idea. But the point is this: if Sunak's wife is to be put under this much examination, then so should Starmer's. What are her financials?

    As I said above; Cherie Blair shows that the wife of a Labour MP can be involved with some fairly dodgy people. If you want sunlight on Sunak's wife, then it would seem odd that you would not want such light on Starmer's wife.

    Sometimes all Labour has is smears. especially after such rich ground as they had with Johnson., who really was dodgy ;)
    Even local councillors are required to declare interests of spouses/partners, its rather bizarre MPs, who set those rules, always seem so stunned that, yes, a conflict involving their partner might still be relevant.

    All MPs just list your interests properly, it is not the onerous burden you act like it is.
    I'm unsure that I've commented on that process.

    As it happens, it wouldn't be very onerous for me, as our interests are fairly lightweight. I can imagine if you had more complex affairs - as people with lots of money often do - it could well be much more complex and onerous.

    And then there's the problems of allowing people to keep some privacy on their affairs as well.
    Oh, boo-hoo, how people with lots of money suffer! How can they be expected to keep track of where all their money is?! It’s just not fair. How they must wish they were poor like the rest of us.

    People with lots of money can afford to pay accountants to help them work out what to declare. They already pay accountants to help them work out how to minimise their tax!
    LOL, no. I see your argument is based on a silly anti-rich position.

    But yes, affairs are more complex, especially (as an example) when money and shares are held abroad.
    So your solution is we just let them off, they just shouldn’t need to report conflicts of interest?
    Not at all. The rules should be applied fairly and equally.

    But 'conflicts of interest' can be very much in the eye of the beholder. Say a politician's spouse has a great interest in a charity, and works for it - pick whatever one you want. And then suddenly that charity gets lots of advantages from the politician. Is that a conflict of interest ? What if the spouse just volunteers for that charity? What if it's not a charity, but a 1% share in the company?
    My wife volunteers for CAB . If I was a chancellor who gave a specific tax break for CAB only, It'd still be right to declare it.
    Exactly. It wouldn't be a conflict that prevents even minor involvement. But it must be known so it is clear it is all ok. 'Privacy' in this instance could give appearance of wrongdoing where none exists.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    edited May 2023
    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Johnson, nailed by Seldon, the book reviewed by Rawnsley. And what I thought when I met him; he just wanted to be important, there really is nothing else.

    Martin Hammond’s infamous notes on Johnson at Eton, which recorded his “disgracefully cavalier attitude”, his “gross failure of responsibility” and his deep-seated belief that he “should be free of the network of obligation that binds everyone else” is the opening source of Seldon’s account. Johnson’s “end was in his beginning”, he argues.

    Talking about him, Seldon acknowledges the former prime minister’s charisma “lights up the room”, but you sense too his almost personal feeling of betrayal at the squandering of those gifts, that headmasterly reaction that Johnson had let down his school, his family, his nation, but most of all, himself. His only discernible ambition, Seldon says, was that “like Roman emperors he wanted monuments in his name”.

    One of the striking aspects of his book is that the world beyond the confines of No 10, the reality of unprecedented national crisis in millions of people’s lives, hardly ever gets a look in, so concerned are the principal actors in this drama with protecting their sorry backsides.

    [Seldon says] “At his heart, he is extraordinarily empty. He can’t keep faithful to any idea, any person, any wife.”

    “The great prime ministers are all there at moments of great historical importance,” he says. “But they have to respond to them well. Chamberlain didn’t; Churchill in 1940, did. Asquith didn’t; Lloyd George did in 1916. Johnson had Brexit, he had the pandemic, he had the invasion of Ukraine and incipient third world war. He could have been the prime minister he craved to be, but he wasn’t, because of his utter inability to learn.”

    Boris and I share something in common, we both had school reports from Martin Hammond. Hammond was my old headmaster and took me for Latin for a brief period and wrote the end of my final report as head man
    I am sure Hammond's analysis of HYUFD was substantially more positive than his exposé of Johnson.
    I believe it was: "this pupil has some quite bizarre deeply held beliefs, and would do better to cultivate a more cavalier attitude towards life..."

  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,225

    Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Well.

    Start-up backed by Rishi Sunak’s wife Akshata Murty given government grant

    The prime minister’s wife is a shareholder in a company that was awarded almost £350,000 of taxpayers’ money as part of a scheme to support entrepreneurs.

    Records at Companies House show that Catamaran Ventures UK Ltd, the investment company controlled by Akshata Murty, has a stake in Study Hall, an education technology start-up.

    Last year the business received a government grant of £349,976 through Innovate UK, the arm’s-length body that provides money and support to companies developing new products or services.

    Murty’s shareholding in a firm that has been the direct beneficiary of government funding raises fresh questions about her business dealings and the potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

    Study Hall, which aims to harness the power of artificial intelligence (AI) in schools, was founded by Sofia Fenichell, a tech entrepreneur. Her previous venture Mrs Wordsmith, another education start-up dedicated to promoting children’s literacy, collapsed in 2021 just six months after receiving state support.

    Mrs Wordsmith was given £650,000 of taxpayers’ money as a loan through the government’s Future Fund,


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/start-up-backed-by-rishi-sunak-s-wife-akshata-murty-given-government-grant-zpmk3k9w8

    Arcuri must be feeling shortchanged.
    I know, Sunak is even more sleazier than Boris Johnson.
    It's strange, isn't it. After all, Boris had need of the money, a louche lifestyle will do that to a chap. But Rishi is already insanely wealthy.

    If I (the mere son of a long-standing local councillor) know the importance of the "what would your behaviour look like on the front
    page of the paper" test, how come so many Conservative MPs don't?
    Except she owns about 2% of the company, one of about 10 minor shareholders with the founder owning 80%. I double she has any involvement in the company whatsoever - it looks like a classic friends and family round.

    Are you really saying that Study Hall shouldn’t access schemes that are available to any company?

    With allegations of this seriousness it’s disgraceful to make this kind of attack without a shred of evidence.
    Any close associate of the PM needs to be squeaky clean and to declare even the slightest conflict of interest if the sleaze and bungs to mates of the Johnson era is to be consigned to history.
    Are you saying she isn't 'squeaky clean' ?

    I wonder what you were saying about Cherie Blair and her friendship with fraudster Peter Foster back in the day? I also look forward to Starmer's wife getting the same attention so we can all check that she's 'squeaky clean'.
    Are there any examples of failures to declare conflicts of interest concerning Starmer’s wife?
    I've no idea. But the point is this: if Sunak's wife is to be put under this much examination, then so should Starmer's. What are her financials?

    As I said above; Cherie Blair shows that the wife of a Labour MP can be involved with some fairly dodgy people. If you want sunlight on Sunak's wife, then it would seem odd that you would not want such light on Starmer's wife.

    Sometimes all Labour has is smears. especially after such rich ground as they had with Johnson., who really was dodgy ;)
    Even local councillors are required to declare interests of spouses/partners, its rather bizarre MPs, who set those rules, always seem so stunned that, yes, a conflict involving their partner might still be relevant.

    All MPs just list your interests properly, it is not the onerous burden you act like it is.
    I'm unsure that I've commented on that process.

    As it happens, it wouldn't be very onerous for me, as our interests are fairly lightweight. I can imagine if you had more complex affairs - as people with lots of money often do - it could well be much more complex and onerous.

    And then there's the problems of allowing people to keep some privacy on their affairs as well.
    If people are rich enough to have onerous declaratory needs they are rich enough to pay someone to be organised about it so they themselves can make those declarations.

    The privacy thing is a red herring. The whole point of the declarations is that people in their position should be open and transparent about otherwise private affairs due to the nature of their power and position. They still have plenty of privacy, as do you even if people have to see what land you hold an interest in within the area of your authority. Even for councillors there are carve outs to withhold for sake of safety.

    There are rules about what needs declaring and what does not, and no doubt the line between can be argued about, but so long as some declarations are required some privacy is given up. That some people have more interests that have the potential to compromise them than others is not a reason to reduce the level, and nor is privacy - knowing the life partner of a minister has investments which are relevant to government work is not information which should be private.

    It's a fallacy if they argue they shouldn't need to do X because they need some privacy. They still have some. They are just voluntarily in a job where they have some restrictions.
    The privacy point is important for several reasons - one being that we're not talking about an individual here, we're talking about an individual's spouse. And possibly their kids and any good friends as well. Anyone that has interests that might gain the individual an advantage.

    IMO that's a difficult balance.
    Plenty of us have to comply with these rules because they are the rules that are in place. Why should the Prime Minister be held to a lower standard than say Charlotte Hogg?
    Do you personally have to comply with these rules?

    And where have I said that the PM has to be held to a lower standard?

    And for anyone who thinks the rules over declarations are 'easy', remember Starmer and many others have got in trouble over the gift declartions in the past, over multiple breaches:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/04/keir-starmer-found-to-have-breached-mps-code-of-conduct-over-register-of-interests

    This is not a dig at Starmer: Mat Hancock and Jess Phillips are amongst several people under investigation for suspected breaches of various declaration rules; and Phillips has been reprimanded before.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jess-phillips-investigated-declarations-interests-b2327521.html

    So unless you think all of these people, from many parties, are crooks or fools (*), then it might suggest that there's some difficulty in the registration process and what needs registering.

    (*) Which might be reasonable
    I have to adhere to the various requirements my employer has, which are in place so they can show compliance with regulatory, legal and stock market requirements.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    This holiday must be costing you a fortune in trainers.
    You don't wear trainers for serious long-distance walking.

    How much of a townie are you?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,582
    .
    IanB2 said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Johnson, nailed by Seldon, the book reviewed by Rawnsley. And what I thought when I met him; he just wanted to be important, there really is nothing else.

    Martin Hammond’s infamous notes on Johnson at Eton, which recorded his “disgracefully cavalier attitude”, his “gross failure of responsibility” and his deep-seated belief that he “should be free of the network of obligation that binds everyone else” is the opening source of Seldon’s account. Johnson’s “end was in his beginning”, he argues.

    Talking about him, Seldon acknowledges the former prime minister’s charisma “lights up the room”, but you sense too his almost personal feeling of betrayal at the squandering of those gifts, that headmasterly reaction that Johnson had let down his school, his family, his nation, but most of all, himself. His only discernible ambition, Seldon says, was that “like Roman emperors he wanted monuments in his name”.

    One of the striking aspects of his book is that the world beyond the confines of No 10, the reality of unprecedented national crisis in millions of people’s lives, hardly ever gets a look in, so concerned are the principal actors in this drama with protecting their sorry backsides.

    [Seldon says] “At his heart, he is extraordinarily empty. He can’t keep faithful to any idea, any person, any wife.”

    “The great prime ministers are all there at moments of great historical importance,” he says. “But they have to respond to them well. Chamberlain didn’t; Churchill in 1940, did. Asquith didn’t; Lloyd George did in 1916. Johnson had Brexit, he had the pandemic, he had the invasion of Ukraine and incipient third world war. He could have been the prime minister he craved to be, but he wasn’t, because of his utter inability to learn.”

    Boris and I share something in common, we both had school reports from Martin Hammond. Hammond was my old headmaster and took me for Latin for a brief period and wrote the end of my final report as head man
    I am sure Hammond's analysis of HYUFD was substantially more positive than his exposé of Johnson.
    I believe it was: "this pupil has some quite bizarre deeply held beliefs, and would do better to cultivate a more cavalier attitude towards life..."

    So that's what sent Boris off the rails.

    What did he write about HYUFD ?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599
    edited May 2023
    Leon said:

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    This holiday must be costing you a fortune in trainers.
    I’m hoping that my brand new Scarpa walking shoes will last a bit longer than trainers would!
    Scarpa is a brilliant brand. Worth the ££
    Seconded. I hiked yesterday up Kinder Scout for our annual departmental spring hike, up Jacobs ladder, and across the rather boggy plateau and back to Edale in mine. Feet dry and not footsore at all. Best hiking boots that I have had are the these Scarpa Mistral GTX.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    It seems as though the Local Plans won't have a lot of power but it's often those which bring down local administrations when the electorate perceive what is being planned as not being in keeping with what is there.

    That's the thing - Conservatives throw accusations of NIMBYism around at Liberal Democrats, Residents and others opposed to proposed developments but there's a world of difference between being opposed to housing (whichb no one is) and being opposed to high density developments on greenfield sites without adequate supporting infrastructure which seem to be more about maximising the profits of developers than providing sustainable local communities.

    Many would also argue brownfield sites should be the starting point (in my part of the world that's really all there is) but of course we know that reduces developer profits because of the need to decontaminate or do additional preparatory work.

    Supporting infrastructure such as schools, transport and GP surgeries also needs to be considered in order not to put unreasonable pressure on what's there and most larger developments should contain retail and other business opportunities to provide jobs for the new residents.
    There are plenty of people who are opposed to more housing. Full stop.

    I’ve sat in public meetings where a number of angry people have demanded no more building in the area. Of any kind.

    The LD, in particular, have a strong and established track record of using the promise of blocking any and all development for local political gain.

    The other parties play the NIMBY card as well, of course.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599
    edited May 2023
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    Supporting infrastructure such as schools, transport and GP surgeries also needs to be considered in order not to put unreasonable pressure on what's there and most larger developments should contain retail and other business opportunities to provide jobs for the new residents.
    All included in the development in Leicestershire that I linked to above.

  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,415

    Seems a bit harsh considering sex offenders and thieves keep their jobs.

    A police officer has been dismissed from GMP for drink driving. PC Jarmila Kocanova, who was convicted for the offence after pleading guilty in court last June, was more than four times the legal limit when she was caught.

    Apologising for her actions, the Rochdale resident said she 'genuinely regrets' the events which took place last April. At a misconduct hearing on Friday (April 28), a Police Federation representative urged the force not to dismiss her, telling GMP's top cop that the move would effectively make her homeless.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/pregnant-gmp-officer-who-begged-26807119

    I don't think it is particularly harsh (though the sex offender thing is clearly worse). The police are paid to uphold the law - breaking it should be a sacking offence with no ifs or buts.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,410

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    This holiday must be costing you a fortune in trainers.
    You don't wear trainers for serious long-distance walking.

    How much of a townie are you?
    I’m a working class guy from the desolate North.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,598
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour planning new towns in the greenbelt, with regional Local Plans to control development

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1652956224378347521?s=20

    It seems as though the Local Plans won't have a lot of power but it's often those which bring down local administrations when the electorate perceive what is being planned as not being in keeping with what is there.

    That's the thing - Conservatives throw accusations of NIMBYism around at Liberal Democrats, Residents and others opposed to proposed developments but there's a world of difference between being opposed to housing (whichb no one is) and being opposed to high density developments on greenfield sites without adequate supporting infrastructure which seem to be more about maximising the profits of developers than providing sustainable local communities.

    Many would also argue brownfield sites should be the starting point (in my part of the world that's really all there is) but of course we know that reduces developer profits because of the need to decontaminate or do additional preparatory work.

    Supporting infrastructure such as schools, transport and GP surgeries also needs to be considered in order not to put unreasonable pressure on what's there and most larger developments should contain retail and other business opportunities to provide jobs for the new residents.
    From an electoral point of view, and probably also an infrastructure and environmental one, surely the best option is to go really big in one of two places only. High density, hundreds of thousands of new units, proper infrastructure and services to go with them.

    You only lose possibly a dozen or so of council seats in areas affected as opposed to hundreds across vast swathes of the country when you go for sprawling patchy development: an estate here, a new village there, the odd few houses in every community.

    You get better value for money from concentrated public services: new hospital, new primary and secondary schools, train, tram and bus routes. And you get to retain
    99% of the remaining green space in the rest of the country.

    2 new cities, that’s what I’d go for. One somewhere like Cambridgeshire on the East Coast mainline, the other between Manchester and Sheffield along the NPR line. And of course the Anglesey metropolis with its preferential 15% corporate tax rate and tunnel to Ireland, but that can come later.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,594

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a real risk that Trump could edge this race.

    I hope not, I've laid him to the bone.

    My view is that the (current) age of populism has peaked and Democrats/Independents at large are now too wise to his potential path to allow him through again.
    There isn't much sign of that wisdom, as the header of this thread shows.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377

    Seems a bit harsh considering sex offenders and thieves keep their jobs.

    A police officer has been dismissed from GMP for drink driving. PC Jarmila Kocanova, who was convicted for the offence after pleading guilty in court last June, was more than four times the legal limit when she was caught.

    Apologising for her actions, the Rochdale resident said she 'genuinely regrets' the events which took place last April. At a misconduct hearing on Friday (April 28), a Police Federation representative urged the force not to dismiss her, telling GMP's top cop that the move would effectively make her homeless.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/pregnant-gmp-officer-who-begged-26807119

    I don't think it is particularly harsh (though the sex offender thing is clearly worse). The police are paid to uphold the law - breaking it should be a sacking offence with no ifs or buts.
    Her mistake was not being senior enough.

    A senior officer would have got a convenient diagnosis of being medically unfit to plead due to stress and ended up at a country club treatment centre for a few months (paid for by the tax payer, of course) before returning to duty.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274

    Did my second longest walk yesterday, just over 29 miles, sort of by accident. I booked a place that I thought was 24 miles from Lorient, but it was 5 miles beyond the nearest town which I’d used as the reference point

    Those last five miles were pretty tough and I didn’t arrive until after nine o’clock, but it was worth the extra effort. Firstly, most of the extra walk was in the exact direction I wanted to go today (so only have twenty miles to walk today). Second, the place I’d booked was beautiful; an annexe to a farmhouse deep in the middle of nowhere, with sheep, geese, hens and a cockerel in the garden

    https://abnb.me/w0vhk4Lxrzb

    I had a very good sleep and I’m now on way to Quimper, the next stop on the pilgrimage. I’ve just reached quarter of the way there, which means I’ve now walked just over 200 miles in eight days and two and a half hours

    I’m celebrating that landmark with a beer!

    The whole trip sounds rather awesome, but I missed the early posts. Why are you doing it?
    Someone in France paid for the novelty long-distance delivery option?
  • Options
    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Pro Indy parties have won in French Polynesia, for the first time


    https://twitter.com/oceaniaelects/status/1652979635213201408?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Indeed, two thirds of the seats in the Assembly reversing the 2018 result. It's been a long political road for Oscar Temaru, the founder and President of the Tavini Party since he founded the party (which was then known as the Polynesian Liberation Front) in the 1970s. They've shared power in coalitions but this is the first time they've won an outright majority.

    The question is where do they go from here and how will France react?
    Interesting question for AUKUS as well. Having an independent small nation close to Australia and possibly prone to Chinese influence is not optimal
This discussion has been closed.